How Childhood Trauma Affects Adult Relationships, Self-Worth & PTSD Symptoms | Wake Up with Marci

We have such dysfunctional parents. Why do we end up seeking that same type of relationship? You're not going to find a partner that you think is a 10 and is amazing because you don't believe that you deserve that. So you're going to look for a partner that is like, do you see yourself as a 4? You're going to look for like a 2 or something like that. What is EMDR? What does that stand for? EMDR allows you to go back, think about the memory, the worst part, and it just kind of like creates it, makes it more of a whole of that happened. This is Allison Kirvan, a licensed marriage and family therapist, practice owner, and trauma specialist who helps women heal from childhood and relational trauma. Through support and community, she found her footing. And today she brings that same emphasis on connection, safety, and empowerment into everything she does. So how can we really help ourselves with complex PTSD? Not everybody is in the place to start that. So it might need to be more finding day-to-day stability, day-to-day coping skills so that you're not constantly in a state of chaos. And then that makes it easier to start EMVR. How would you say that the vulnerability part in discovering who we are? Big factor is who we choose to be vulnerable with because especially if we grow up with emotionally immature parents, they are not emotionally safe, but a lot of times but a lot of times they will guilt you into being vulnerable with them, or they'll have those little pockets of seeming very empathetic and sweet and caring, and you're like, oh, they've changed. And then you share something, and then you find out the whole family knows, or then they're using it against you. Hello, all, and welcome back to Wake Up With Marci, where we have real conversations, radical healing, and learn to wake up to our worth. And today's episode is especially for anyone who feels like They've spent most of their life being who they needed to be for others and are now asking, who am I really? Self-discovery isn't about becoming someone new. It's often about gently letting go of the roles, survival patterns, and expectations we learn early on in life, especially when trauma is part of that story. Now, let me introduce my guest, Allison Curvan, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Practice Owner of Nightingale Wellness Counseling. She helps women heal from childhood and relational trauma. Allison, welcome to Wake Up With Marci. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's great to have you. So I always like to rewind a bit and hear how you have gotten to the place you are today. So So what was the moment or the experience that sparked your interest or your journey into trauma work and self-discovery? Well, when you are in grad school, after about a year and a half, you start seeing clients in the clinic. So you're a student therapist. and I just noticed that a lot of my clients were coming in with trauma but kind of saying well like I have anxiety or I'm depressed but once we dig a little bit deeper it kind of is those are the symptoms of the trauma and that's kind of what we focused on and then while I was still a student as well I did an EMDR training which is a form of therapy to reprocess trauma so the training I did was also like relational focused EMDR. And that's where I got a lot more information about developmental trauma. And I was just really interested. So talk with us a little bit about trauma. I mean, what types of trauma are staying with us and shaping us into a way where we don't have confidence, we have overwhelm, we have stress, we have depression. Are there specific traumas or could it really just be any type of trauma growing up? Well, we categorize them as like big T trauma and little t trauma. So big T is a big event that happens one time, like you see a shooting or you're in a natural disaster, a car accident, something like that. But little t trauma is things that might appear smaller, but there are more things that happen again and again. So like growing up with a narcissistic mom or an alcoholic father or things like that. So that would be more of complex trauma. And complex trauma, also called developmental trauma, is just because it impacts the way that your brain is developed. Especially if you're experiencing a lot of trauma in your first five years, like the structure of your brain is going to be different than somebody that does not grow up in that environment. So that's why therapy can be a bit longer term if you have developmental trauma because it impacts so many things like your nervous system regulation, how you are in relationships, your confidence, your identity. So it's just a lot more things you're going to focus on. Yeah, I'm always really curious about that because I know, well, our brains really, what happens the first few years of our lives are so vital, right? So for me, my mother was an alcoholic. You know, it's funny because obviously you don't know these things are happening, but my father was an alcoholic. There was some abuse that happened, physical abuse, and then later on, sexual abuse. And I ended up using alcohol to cope most of my life. And that's pretty much my story is how I coped with alcohol and my difficulty in relationships, not having confidence, even though I felt like I was always in this survival mode. So I would appear to be strong, but I really wasn't. Right. So. Yeah. So I know there's so many women out there that do suffer. Did you yourself go through any of this, which is why this work became so important to you? Yes, I grew up in a dysfunctional family as well with substance abuse, just like chaos and things like that. So when I started as just kind of more childhood trauma, and then I started reading more about emotionally immature parents. So that's also something I incorporate a lot because it's usually a combination of reprocessing the trauma, but then like practical tools and information about how to communicate with people in your life like that, because it's a much different set of rules of like what's healthy communication with somebody that is emotionally available and mature versus somebody that is not. There, the boundaries are more to protect yourself. And in other situations, the boundaries are more to like invite other people in and deepen the connection. So those just can be really hard patterns to break for sure. And then we bring this into our relationships, right? So, you know, you talk about helping those that are in relationships because we both come from a background and you're bringing all that baggage into the relationship. And now you're trying to form this bond and life together and then incorporate children a lot of times and that sort of thing. So would you say we've got to work individually and then come together and work together on that? So it depends on the couple because it is common that if we grow up with that type of parenting, then we are looking for partners that mirror those same dynamics. So it is common for people to start therapy because they're kind of in that same role in their relationship of like everything is my responsibility, my partner's happiness and everything is my responsibility and I'm failing, I need to do something differently. And then as we start processing things, it's kind of like, oh, I have done everything. Like they are never going to be happy. Similar to my parent is like, that's how they are. So if it's a dynamic like that, yes, it's more individual work. if couples therapy isn't indicated as being helpful, which it usually isn't with emotionally immature or narcissistic people. But if it's a couple where like they both feel safe and one partner wants to kind of be there to support the other and learn how they can support somebody with complex PTSD, how those symptoms are impacting their relationship and things like that, then And yeah, we would definitely do a couple. We have such dysfunctional parents. Why do we end up seeking that same type of relationship? Yeah, well, that is comfort for us, right? Even though it's chaotic, especially if you have this deep-rooted belief that you're not good enough or you don't deserve happiness or you don't deserve to exist, you're not going to find a partner that you think is a 10 and is amazing because you don't believe that you deserve that. So you're going to look for a partner that is like, you see yourself as a four, you're going to look for like a two or something like that, you know. And then we're just more susceptible to love bombing. I don't know if you've heard of Lindsay Gibson, but she in one of her podcast episodes, she says, like, when you come from neglect, you're starving. So you're going to want that love bombing because you're starving for something. And even some people will say, I know it's love bombing, but it feels good. So I'm going to keep going, you know. So, yeah, I get that. Yeah, it sets us up to accept things that are not like we're not being treated well, but we're going to accept it because we think that maybe we deserve that or that we can't get better. Yeah. I ended up finding a great guy. I ended up marrying. I didn't know it, though. Right. Yeah. I was trying to sabotage it. I didn't believe he loved me. And I always say, I didn't know how to love really. And I didn't know how to receive love. While I was always seeking love, I didn't really know what it looked like. I didn't know what healthy love looked like. So I really had to learn, learn what that looked like. You shared about EMDR training and you went through that in grad school, but that's something that you not only learned about, but it also helped you personally. How did that experience shift your life? It got me out of a lot of those old ways of thinking Just because our brains are very smart it kind of like you experienced something as a child Your brain is storing any of the stimuli with that So if it was like someone was on their phone or they threw shoes at you or something later on, your nervous system still responds to it. Like it activates. But then sometimes your brain is like, why am I, why am I getting so angry? Why am I getting so afraid? So EMDR helped me kind of connect the dots of like, why am I having this weird response or reaction to these things helps you trace it back and then just reprocess it so that now when that's coming up, I'm a little bit more regulated. So yeah, it increases confidence a lot, just like my body's calmness and sense of safety. Yeah. And so that those memories that used to, I used to like dissociate or avoid or get really angry or reactive. Now they do just feel like memories. Like that happened to me when I was a kid and I'm not that girl anymore. If that were to happen to me again, it would be much different because I'm never going to be that little and helpless again. So yeah, just help. What is sort of thing? What is EMDR? What does that stand for? Eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. Because essentially like when your brain is storing a traumatic memory, it's not storing it correctly. It's just storing the worst part. So when you're thinking back to it, your brain keeps going to that worst part of like the point of impact in a car accident and it's not remembering like but I got out of the car and I didn't have any scratches and I'm safe and I got a new car um it just keeps saying like well be afraid of driving because this thing happened um so EMDR allows you to go back think about the memory the worst part and it just kind of like creates it makes it more of a whole of that happened um yeah I didn't turn my blinker on that is something I have control of now. I can put my blinker on and like check everything. But yeah. So it's interesting you say that because early on in my healing, I was always like, why do I always, I only remember the bad times of my childhood. And I knew that there were good times. There was definitely good times, but I did always go back to the negative bad times and the periods I felt unsafe. Now, when you say they're stored, like, is this all, because I hear like the body stores it, is that like an energetic thing? So you have this like negative energy stored within your body and then we're releasing that and they were no longer attached to that story by the energy? Yeah. So like, um, it's in your brain. So like in your hippocampus is what stores the memory. So it's accessing that part of your brain to kind of rewire, but then also it will be stored in your body. So with EMDR, we also say like, where are you feeling that in your body? Because some people, like I think in The Body Keeps the Score, he talks about how somebody dissociated from a trauma and then they were catched in a certain way and that brought them back because our body does store those things. It's like that's the association with the memory. So it both restructures how your brain has stored that memory. And then, yeah, also releases the body sensations that are connected to the trauma. What if you never tap into that? Because like for me, there's after like the sexual abuse had been going on with my stepfather and we addressed it with my stepfather and my mother for the second time ended up staying with him. And we moved to another home. And it's very interesting because I remember like maybe all of two memories, three memories within that house. I remember my bedroom. I remember the level I lived on. But really most of the other house I don't remember. And I don't remember my time there. I remember my time in school. I remember my boyfriends and my friends and the parties and all those things. but I don't remember in the home. And that is like dissociation is a, like a survival response. It's something your body goes into to protect yourself. So, and then also when you're in those types of situations, there is brain fog. Like if your parent either doesn't believe you or stays with your abuser, then there is this, but you still are dependent on that person for like basic needs. There is a bit of a dissociation and a fogginess in your brain because it's like they betrayed me, but I still rely on them. So, um, so yeah, when you're home, your brain's already in a weird place where it's probably not storing the memories, but also all the trauma that's happening there. I think that's also sometimes why we only remember the bad because it's a way of a way that our body is trying to say, like, remember this, like, because it could happen again, like make sure you stay safe. Remember these bad things that happened. It's like trying to help, but it's obviously like over-functioning. Wow. Is it okay, like, if you don't bring those memories back up? Not everybody wants to go back and reprocess all the things, especially, like, with dissociated memories. Some people are like, I have this feeling that this thing happened, but I don't want to go there. And so we don't. Because with EMDR, you can just focus on the current experiences you're having of it, like the trauma responses to clear those out, even if you don't want to go back to the pack. Because for some people it can be, it's too much. Like it's, they don't feel like it would be helpful. You know, certain items that I had would remind me of a time and I didn't want to look at it. I didn't want to wear it. I didn't want to have anything to do with it. And now, like what you said earlier, I now can wear the watch because there was abuse that happened in Hong Kong and that's where I got the watch. So I didn't want anything to do with the watch. And so, but now I can wear the watch and the watch is just a beautiful watch, right? It doesn't, I'm no longer linked to the story. And you had mentioned that, right? It, my childhood happened to me, but it's not defining my life today. How we can, well, there's so many things that I had to do through rewiring my brain and a lot of modalities and tools that I've used. But I'm just so interested in this EMDR. Is that a faster route in the healing? Yeah. So EMDR is like the fastest way to reprocess traumatic events because sometimes with talk therapy, especially, because we go into it like one of the questions is, what does this memory make you believe about yourself? So that might be like, I'm worthless or I'm not good enough. And so I can verbally tell that to a client and say, like, you know, that wasn't your fault, right? Like all of these factors, it was not your fault. And they might logically understand that, but emotionally you don't believe it because of what happened. So, yeah, it's helping you go back in there. And you're coming to that on your own. Like you're going back to the memory. You're seeing your adult self and your child self or whatever version of you went through that. And you're coming to that conclusion on your own. Like, oh, that wasn't my fault. So, yeah, it just helps you get there quicker because it's rewiring the memory in your brain versus just like talking about the memory and feeling all that. I love that. I mean, what is amazing is that we can rewire our brains, literally rewire how we think, we react, how we think about ourselves and such. So you had mentioned earlier about CPTSD. What is that? So CTSD is complex PTSD. So instead of it being like one event that you experienced once, it is like repetitive things you had over and over again. So maybe like, yeah, your parent was absent, so you had to be the caretaker for your younger siblings. So you're always in that mode of like scanning. You're very hypervigilant. You feel responsible for everything. So, yeah, it's things that you typically experienced early on that happened again and again and are causing issues either with you're avoiding reminders of that. You're having nightmares. Your body is getting activated to things that remind you of the past. So, things like that. And would you say a lot of times that these things could lead to negative coping? Yeah, they usually do lead to negative coping. because even like resilience usually comes with a cost. It's usually like there's a negative coping skill I adopted in order to like get past that thing. So usually people do have like substance abuse, ways that they avoid, things like that. So but we'll typically more focus on the root versus like, oh, you need to stop drinking because like usually that's a symptom. So we're going to focus on that first. Yeah, I always say, because I'm over 10 years sober now, and it's like, you're doing that thing because you are masking something else, right? And I think that that's something that most people need to understand. Like, you can quit the behavior, but if you don't do anything to heal, that you will still stay miserable, or you will relapse or use something else to mask that pain. and that's why this work is so so important and so many women like they normalize the patterns and like like you were talking about over functioning people pleasing perfectionism so what are some of the signs common signs that someone might be living from that old survivor role? Usually it is that if they have a rigid role in like all the relationships they're in, they feel like that they have to be that person. Usually shame is present and a big one. So usually if people are talking about perfectionism or saying they don't feel good enough, I'll ask about shame because that's usually what's there. And then the relationships at their end And there that saying that like your partner reflects how much you love yourself kind of So it like what types of relationships are you in a lot of times we also choose very chaotic jobs or things that are really hard on our body because it's like we're good at that we're good at living in chaos but then it's keeping our bodies in this thing so yeah it's like a lot of relational symptoms that you'll notice and then a lot of self-concepts like their worth and things like that. Yeah. My book is called Chaos to Clarity. I lived in such chaos. And if I ever felt a glimmer of quiet or peace, I felt like I was crawling out of my skin. I had to find some way to muster up that or stir up that chaos because that's where I was comfortable. Even if you say you don't want it. But that's what you're comfortable with and you keep going back to. So one of the things that you talk about, I think of so many of us, we deal with, we have felt or experienced. And that's that imposter syndrome. I don't care if you're a mother at the school or you're in work, whatever it is, right? But you yourself experienced that. and you were working in an agency and that's when you started your own private practice. So what was that like for you and how did you find that strength to then transition and open your own practice? I mean, that's amazing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I had it there because I think, especially if you grow up in dysfunctional families, like there's this kind of loyalty where they almost make you, they might directly or indirectly kind of say like you can't do that like who do you think you are to accomplish that so I think it's you just already think like I can't do that and almost sometimes feel guilty like wanting to pursue something like that so I tried to more find community and like networks of people that were doing what I wanted to do so that I was more trying to go to people I looked up to for advice versus people who maybe like haven't been where I want to go. So because from there, I was just hearing more like, well, you should be afraid of this or you shouldn't do this instead of like, well, you already have this many clients. You can definitely do it. Like, these are your next steps. Yeah, I think that was a big thing for me is like adjusting who I go to for advice and who I go to like with my vulnerabilities and things like that, because if it's somebody safe, that makes a big difference. and then I just kind of um acted as if you know like that delusional confidence of like I'm just gonna do it other people have done and I can do it us yeah so yeah and I what I hear right that self-talk that's so surrounding yourself with the right people so important right and yeah and I love but it was almost kind of like fake it till you make it. And you did it. Yeah, I did it. And finally here. And yeah, I mean, like, listen, those words are so important. And the words that we grow up with and the things that are said to us, they are imprinted in us and they do affect us in many, many ways. And I think for women, especially in my age bracket, I mean, you were raised, Not so much as like my mother's age bracket, but I'm 56. And it was kind of like you, you're either a wife, right? Or the jobs that you would pursue were not ones that you usually think of a man in, which would be like C-suite executive level. level. And like there's certain areas for women to be in versus men, you know, so those things are all very, very important and do frame how you think about yourself and how you pursue the things you do in your life. So what would you say to someone out there right now that's feeling like they want to change in their lives? But like I said earlier, like, okay, I've been acting and doing all these things, but how do I discover who I really am and what lights me up and makes me happy? I think it's kind of just following those like little pockets of light. Like when you see something that is giving you hope and saying like, yes, I do want to change because I do deserve that. Like hold on to that until kind of like the next bright spot is coming up because in the beginning it does feel like oh there's a lot of like darkness and murkiness so it's kind of like staying in the in the little area and then um yeah slowly those areas get bigger and there's less dark spots so yeah yeah I think have the like think about like little you think about five year old you and like what you would tell her if she was like I'm scared to do this but I really want to, like, what would you tell her and just do that for yourself? And I also, and you were touching on this, it's like, go back to what lit you up. I mean, when you used to, before everybody told you what you're supposed to do, what made you happy? What were the things that made you excited and kind of start reevaluating that and kind of peeling that back? And one of the other things that you talked about that helped you and is so vital in our lives is community. So if someone is isolating, especially if someone is coping with alcohol or maybe a food addiction or something, you tend to isolate because you have the guilt and the shame and you don't know what to do. But community is key. And community is key within anything that you are doing in this life to to actually move forward, having those right people surround you, like you said, and those that can inspire you and then that community. So how can we start to move from that feeling of isolation, shame and guilt and to find the community? Yeah, I think it's meeting yourself where you're at and just having very small goals to start because that feels like a big task of like, I'm isolating. I don't have any connections. And my goal is to like have this giant community that can feel debilitating. So I think it's starting small, identifying also like what does community mean to you? Is it like you want to meet these people, like have dinner with them three nights a week, or you want somebody to have lunch with once a week. So like really defining community for yourself. And then just like what's one small step I can take to get there? Is that texting one person is that joining one support group and then just like setting the goals bigger from there once you've accomplished it and then if that is feeling too big then it's like leaning into what is the barrier like when I go to text the friend what is coming up for me so then that you can get support in that if that's like working with a therapist or trying like whatever you can to like what is this barrier because sometimes yeah we have to remove the barrier before we can take the action too. That makes sense. So how can we really help ourselves with complex PTSD? What are the best ways we can help ourselves? Well, a big part of therapy is that safety in the relationship with the therapist. So whether that is finding a relational and trauma-informed therapist so that you're just starting to get that feeling of like, this is what safety in relationship looks like and safe vulnerability and things like that. Or if that's like starting to open up more to like safe friends or other people. And then once you have, I think like the safeties and you're able to start processing things and there's different ways to do that. Obviously I really recommend like EMDR therapy, but not everybody is in the place to start that. So it might need to be more finding like day-to-day stability, day-to-day coping skills so that you're not constantly in a state of chaos. And then that makes it easier to start EMVR. What would you say to someone, though, that, you know, maybe they're married or maybe they're divorced and they really just don't have the financial means. How can they get the support? There are things online and different support groups and things like that. I think it's first getting the education. And then there are different therapies where people offer pro bono or sliding scale or take insurance. But there's a lot of different, you could start with like nervous system stuff, like noticing what is coming up in your body. But again, that might be sometimes more helpful with a trauma therapist based on the severity. But I think inner child work, trying to go back and like connect with your inner child, what came up from her, how can you meet those needs for her now. and self-awareness is a big thing. So even just books helps give you language for what you experienced because it's like that thing of like your fish don't know that they're in water. Like when you're in a dysfunctional family, you don't really know it's dysfunctional until you get out of it and you're like, oh my gosh. So yeah, I think like more information, the self-awareness and then learning like what is your experience like? Like how is it impacting your current life? Yeah. How can we distance ourselves in a healthy way from a friend or a family member that isn't or a partner that just is not healthy for us? They're not lifting us. They're the ones that they're contributing to bringing us down and our lack of self-confidence. That can, for different people, it can take different amounts of time because you're trying to find optimal distance. There are certain people, especially with family members who either can't or don't want to fully go no contact. So you're kind of testing out different boundaries to see what works. So if it's like, oh, I'll just talk to them on the phone. But then you're noticing that like, but when you talk to them on the phone at night, they're drunk and they don't remember the phone call or whatever it is. Then it's like, OK, I need a little bit firmer of a boundary. Like, I'll just talk to them on the phone, but during daylight hours or something like that. And then if you're noticing like, oh, but it's still really conflictual. They're arguing with me or they're guilt tripping me the whole time. Then maybe it like I talk to them on the phone during the day like once a month or when I have the capacity to answer the phone and entertain that type of conversation So and then some people learn that like oh it like no level of contact is working I guess I do want to go no contact That my only option So it's hard because you're testing different things and you feel like a failure, but you're not failing. You're just experimenting of like, is there any level of contact I can have with this person and still maintain my own like mental health? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know with younger people right now that no contact with family members is becoming a really big thing. They're learning like it's an option that you can do that, you know, and not huff to somebody that harms you because a lot of times they're told like, you're a bad person or how could you do this to me? The guilt tripping of your kids. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard to learn how to, first of all, put up your own boundaries as a parent too. you know like because i see a lot of parents or women they'll just let their kids walk all over them and just say oh it's a stage it's kids right or you have the other side that they can be very harsh on their kids and not allow them to even be themselves so i've been trying to find that balance on my own to be kind to my my daughter's now 20 and this has always been important to me Like you need to realize that like I'm a human being. I have feelings. Your actions affect how I feel. And then also I am here for you. I am here to support you and listen to you and make you feel safe. So, but it's okay to need to feel safe as a parent too. So it's like, it's kind of like you don't expect to put all that on your kids, but, But it is okay to understand, like, we're all in these relationships and putting up your boundaries and learning to communicate effectively, right? And know your worth. I mean, it's okay to know your worth. And I realize it's a long road, but it's possible. It's possible. And that's the beauty of this healing. How else do you help? I know that the EMDR, like, I love that. are there any other sources of therapy that you're a big fan of? I do a lot of acceptance and commitment therapy as well, which is, I don't know, it has like some similarities to CBT, but it's more focused on your values. So instead of kind of asking like, is this thought correct or incorrect? You're more just asking like, is this helpful? Like, is it helpful for me to sit here and beat myself up for an hour? Is that helping me get to my value of community or is that really getting in the way? So you're just assessing like what in my life gives, makes me feel meaning and makes me feel purpose. And are there things I'm doing that are getting in the way of that? You know, so then you're just adjusting. So I really like that. A lot of self-compassion training, especially with Shane and then a lot of mindfulness, which is also part of acceptance and commitment therapy because we need to be like present enough to notice like when we're having a trauma response how we're reacting um things like that so that we can slowly start to like be aware in the moment and then shift that into like a response instead of a reaction yeah i love that that was a hard one because when all you know is reaction it's hard to recognize, okay, this is happening right now. How am I feeling? I know this isn't real. This is just me being, you know, I'm just using an example of self-deprivation and we're mean to ourselves and the things we say to ourselves are so awful. And then we feel bad about ourselves and then we feel like we can't do anything. Maybe because one person said something and it triggers these feelings about ourselves. But to be able to not react to that, feel sorry for ourselves, hate that person, and then have a big pity party, you can actually say, okay, I know I'm feeling this way right now, but it's not real. It's okay to feel the emotions, but what can I do to bring myself out of this instead of staying in it? Meditation and prayer are two big ones for me. Yeah, but they're good ones because they also just broaden your focus. Like when you are triggered, you're either like your brains in the past or the future, or it's like super narrowly focused on one thing. So like meditation mindfulness kind of helps you zoom out and be like, oh, that person ignored me. And I immediately started to tell myself that I'm not good enough and everyone hates me. And then now I have the urge to isolate. Like, what's going on? Like, does this fit that reaction fit this situation? Or does that feel like it's something from the past, you know, so that you can take in all the info and then choose how you want to go forward? Absolutely. And there's just so many of these with the therapy that you do. And then also the mindfulness are just both like so important in your every, you know, while you have the therapy, then you take these modalities and mindful actions into your daily life. right? So you can, and that, that helps with changing the neural patterns in your brain. Yes. So, and then that repetitive work. So let's talk about vulnerability because I think when we have trauma, it's very hard to be vulnerable because we're always like looking to survive or we put our walls up. So how would you say that vulnerability plays a part in discovering who we are? I think it is a bit of a like, because shame kind of dies when you shed a light on it, you know? So I think if we are able to be vulnerable with safe people, it also is like a way to kind of accept ourselves and experiencing that. like I can tell somebody this big dark thing and they cannot see me any differently but I think a big factor is like who we choose to be vulnerable with because especially if we grow up with emotionally immature parents like they are not emotionally safe but a lot of times they will guilt you into being vulnerable with them or they'll have those little pockets of like seeming very empathetic and sweet and caring and you're like oh they've changed you know and then you share something and then you find out the whole family knows or then they're using it against you So it's also just like having starting slowly, sharing like little things and seeing how the person responds if it feels safe. And then, you know, then you can continue with that person and opening up a little bit more. But I think the audience that you have is very important when you're starting the vulnerability and the boundaries work. Yes. And everybody out there being vulnerable is not a weakness, it's a strength. I've learned that. Yeah, so that's what Brene Brown says, is that like all of the people who said that they experienced courage felt vulnerable at the same time that they were being courageous. So, yes, we all feel vulnerable and we still can take action. Exactly. So for someone out there that's feeling lost or disconnected, they don't know where to begin, how would you encourage them to just start? What's the first thing they could do? Well, I think it's just assessing, like, what are you ready for? You know, like, if you're not ready for therapy yet, like, meet yourself where you're at. If it's just, like, reading a book, reading an article, joining a support group, but choosing not to speak during the support group, something like that. Like, start in small steps. Not everybody is ready to start therapy yet. Like, you need to assess where you're at and then slowly, like, your tolerance will build. But just and just honoring that of like, I can only do what I can do. You know, this is my step and that's good enough for now. I love that. So really, I mean, with whatever it is that you are facing, you can, you know, Google this information. You can go on Facebook as far as, you know, helping you find communities, because no matter what it is you're facing, there's a community out there. And just remember, like for me, like I started at this, the 12 step program AA when I wanted to quit drinking and I was at my rock bottom. And I had so much shame and so much guilt and so much fear. What if somebody knows me that's in my community? But everyone in there started just where you are. Right. They all had to take the first step, no matter what it is. And I will say there's a lot of communities like you don't even have to turn on the camera. You can just sit in and listen until you're ready. So, yeah. So how can people find out more about you and the work that you do and and potentially get help? Well, my Instagram is sitwithallison. And then my website is nightingalewellnesstherapy. I'm currently updating it. So it will look very different in the next few months. But those are the ways to reach out to me. Psychology Today, things like that. All right. Fantastic. Well, Allison, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing so much wisdom and being honest and just, you know, normalizing healing and because we're all going through something. Yes. Thank you for having me. And I love that the work that you're doing. Thank you so much. So for all of you out there, if today's episode resonated with you, please hear this, that healing isn't about fixing what's broken. It's about reconnecting with who you've always been underneath the roles, the trauma, and the expectations. So please make sure to follow Allison and explore her work. and as always if this episode helped you please like it share it pass it on because you never know who this is going to help because someone out there that you love may need this this reminder today so until next time keep waking up to your worth your healing and your truth and i will see you next thursday with a new episode of wake up with marcy bye Thank you.