Healing Through Music: Dr. Tasha Golden on Arts, Academia, and Resilience in Creative Lives-Encore Episode

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T.W.O. percent on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Music saved me. Welcome back to Music Saved Me. I'm Lynn Hoffman and today we are diving into an extraordinary story that bridges the passion of music with the precision of science. Our guest today is Dr. Tasha Golden, a former singer-songwriter with the acclaimed band Ellery, whose music career ended due to severe burnout. And from that loss, she forged a new path as a behavioral scientist and the first director of research at the International Arts and Mind Lab at Johns Hopkins. Recognized as one of 2024's Fierce 50 by Fierce Pharma, Dr. Golden now leads groundbreaking work in Arts on Prescription, including America's first program, Culture Rx. And she's also a lead author of Arts on Prescription, a field guide for U.S. communities. And today we'll explore how music both broke and rebuilt her and how she's now using science and art to harness creativity for healing and innovation. Lucky us, we get to spend this time with you. Dr. Golden, thank you so much for joining us today on Music Saved Me. I've been waiting to talk to you about all of this stuff, so thank you. Oh, thank you so much for having me. If you wouldn't mind, can you take us back to your early days with the band Ellery and tell us a little bit about what music meant to you, sort of as a young artist living the dream of being in a rock band? Well, you know, I'll go back even further than that. I started writing songs when I was really young because I found, you know, without the music, I found that as a little girl, I didn't necessarily have much of a voice. People weren't necessarily interested in hearing my opinions in the particular place where I was at the time where I was being brought up. But I noticed very early on that when I sang, people paid attention and it started to become clear that if I wrote my own songs, if I could put my ideas, my stories, the things that were important to me into those songs, it was sort of like this workaround, a way that I could find power in a community and in a society that I otherwise didn't really feel that I had very much power and voice. And that's kind of how I started writing. And that effect of music in my life really is a through line as far as music's ability to allow me to say things that I found that I couldn't say otherwise, to share things with audiences. You know, there's lots of things that have happened in my life that I have shared with hundreds of people at a show before. I had ever told a single friend about it, you know, and I found that that was very true for my audience as well. People coming to music for the same reasons that it was allowing them to discover something about themselves that they couldn't share otherwise or hadn't realized about themselves otherwise. And so when you ask about, you know, living the dream, there were so many cool things about our career, like being able to travel the world, the country, see so many different things, meet so many different people, work with just absolutely astonishingly great musicians. And I think, though, that my favorite part was always just that seemingly mysterious sense that music made something possible that wasn't possible. Otherwise, this kind of, like I said, a sort of workaround for our limitations and our norms and, you know, a way for people and for myself to find a different path where we could find power and voice and opportunity. It's pretty exciting stuff. I mean, when you're a young person and you join a band, like you said, travel the world. But I'm curious when this is kind of a difficult, I mean, juxtaposition. And I want to start off by saying that having severe burnout is from what I read really just ended your music career. And I was curious if you could describe that experience and the moment that you realized it was over because I myself suffered from burnout. I know a lot of people did. And it's a really tough moment where you either just throw it away or you turn it into something positive. Yeah. I mean, at the time, I didn't realize how common this was for people in the music industry. It seems to me now, I can't imagine how I wouldn't have known that. I did know that depression and anxiety were very common among my music friends. We had lots of conversations about those things, but it wasn't something that I knew how to talk about or that I just felt anomalous. And I felt like, you know, this was something that was happening to me because I wasn't maybe I wasn't passionate enough for I wasn't, you know, there was these ways that you start to blame yourself for an experience that you're having because you don't realize that it's actually a very common experience and you don't necessarily have words for it. And for me, I think I would describe that burnout as, you know, death by a thousand cuts. Like it just was over years and years of, you know, hundreds of shows nights. Who knows where you're going to be that night where you're going to be sleeping, who you're going to be talking to. And just a kind of unpredictability of it. I much later in my life was diagnosed as like neurodivergence. There's all kinds of things that make so much sense now that like that unpredictability was was really hard on me in ways that I didn't even realize. I always thought of myself as this really impulsive like our teeth that just go explore the world, like, you know, come what may. And actually, it turns out that is not the way that my brain thrives. But I didn't know that at the time. And we recorded our most ambitious project one year, the Grammy winning producer, lots of amazing studio musicians working with us, songs that I really believed in. And I was just so excited to put that record out. And we got home from recording it. We were going to do a short tour to help promote it before it released. And, you know, one night in December, we were coming back from, I think it was our last show of the year, our last clan show of the year. And I just was, you know, curled over in the passenger seat of our vehicle, just sobbing. And I all that I could say, you know, I remember turning to my partner, like my partner in life, but also my music partner, this was his dream also his job also, you know. And I said something like, I don't want to do anything other than this. This is all that I've ever wanted to do. And I can't do this anymore. I'm just I'm exhausted. I I don't know how to like I just reached this point where I couldn't imagine waking up and doing it again and then again and then again. I just I just I wound up going to bed and staying there for weeks. I was just, you know, it felt like I had been exhausted for years by that point. And it it was something that I kept trudging through, like expecting that maybe the next and I think career musicians will relate to this or career creatives of many kinds that like the next milestone, the next opportunity is going to change things just enough to worry. Maybe you'll be able to like relax a little bit. You'll get a little bit break and you just keep rounding the next corner and the next corner and the next corner. And I just kept doing that, expecting it to change until I just couldn't move anymore. Right. And yeah, one of those days in bed, it became very clear to me that yeah, I was definitely not going to be able to tour again. I assumed that I would still be doing full time music in some way, but I knew that something had fundamentally sort of irrevocably changed. Two questions as a follow up to that one, what did your partner, what was his response and two, can you describe what neurodivergent means? I heard you say that. I'm just curious. I don't know what it means, but it sounds extremely interesting. Yeah, it's sort of an umbrella term for all kinds of, you know, for people's brains who just work differently from what we would call typical, like a neurotypical brain. So it can encompass things like ADHD, autism, you know, also some mental illnesses, OCD and things like that. So it's kind of like an umbrella term for describing somebody whose brain functions differently. Not, it's not necessarily pathological, like something is wrong with it, but it's a brain that functions different. A neurotype that is, you know, that works differently than what we've kind of commonly recognized as. That's what we would expect, or that's the, that's kind of like society is designed around one kind of neurotype and this one is different. That's so interesting, though, because sometimes people walk around and they think, you know, what's wrong with me? I am so different. I think so differently, or I do think so different than everyone else. And you're actually not alone. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's it's amazing to, to explore that so late in life. And of course, like young people now might get a diagnosis earlier when I was young, it wasn't something that people were talking about as much. So it took a lot of years for me to come across people who are very similar to me who were like, oh, this is my experience. And I'm like, wait, hold up. What are you talking about? So, yeah, really, really, really helpful to explore those things. And my partner's response, oh, when to his eternal credit, he was just concerned and like, oh, OK, well, if this is this is what's going on, we got to change something. You know, he had no idea what that would be. We thankfully had some good friends who were sort of like, you know, all that I knew was at that moment was that I can't do this anymore. I didn't know what the next thing was. They didn't know what that meant. Or like what and some friends kind of gave us this helpful language. They were like, what if you take like a six month sabbatical Tasha? And it was just like such a helpful framing, just that word of like, oh, like some time set aside to do something different than this thing that I cannot do. OK, and just like that framing of it helped my brain and my partner's brain like make sense of this. OK, let's take six months and then we'll decide. And by the way, we hadn't put that record out yet. So this was also six months of like, we'll just hold on to that record and not release it for another six months. It felt bananas, but it was also so helpful to have that. And then my partner was was able to find other work to support the two of us, which is such a privilege to me and has always been one of the great gifts of my life. One of the great gifts that he gave to me, you know, to as somebody who had always like kind of like, oh, I founded this band. This is my work and I'm doing it. And for somebody to step in and say, like, no, figure figure this out, heal up and we'll we'll take things on the other side of that. We'll know what to do. Don't let that one get away for sure. Right. Oh, my goodness. Talk about someone in your corner. That's pretty amazing, especially with everything that you had built up in that dark period that you found yourself in after losing music, so to speak, at that point. What kept you going and gave you hope that you were going to move on to that next thing, whatever that may be? I think a couple of different things. I have always thought of the my life in terms of like a story, you know, people talk about sometimes wanting to find their purpose. I had always had this mentality of like, oh, the purpose is something that I'm creating. It's sort of always evolving. Like we're the story. Your story is not something that you're not following a map that somebody handed to you. You're making up the map as you as you go. And that can be very unsettling in many ways for a lot of people. We sort of just like accepting endless uncertainty. But for me in that moment, what was helpful to me was that I felt like a story was ending and that just meant that I knew that there was another story. And to be really clear, this was like the most awful thing that had ever happened to me in my life. So I'm not saying it like, oh, one story is gone. Let's just find the next one. Like it was awful. But I did have this underlying sense that, OK, this must mean that there's a different story to tell. And I just have to stay curious about what that might be. Like, here was one story. I was telling the story of a singer-songwriter who's touring and for a living and things like that. I wonder what the next story is going to be. And I had no idea. And it was just an absolutely terrifying gap in my understanding of my future. Right. But I did understand it as a story. And that was such a help to me. And it's part of what I've researched and how I help other people now is understanding their work as a story that isn't done until they are. Right. Yeah. I love that. I would say the other thing that helped so much is poetry. I found myself reading Mary Oliver all the time and trying to spend some time in nature and with animals. Like just something that felt grounding and real and present. Those things were incredibly important. Yes, they are. And wow, talk about a transformation, though. You took the love of music and artistry and you shifted to just a PhD researcher studying music and well-being and creating programs that are, you know, in major universities and hospital studies. So can you, what was that shift? Like, when did you know that was the direction that you were going to go and then what led you to where you are now? That came very slowly. You know, I had a mentor in the middle of like the darkest time of my depression after getting off the road. So like, I think that you might like academia. Like it's really predictable and like you could study writing and I was like, you know what? Sure. OK, I applied to this master's program in creative writing. I sent them CDs like lyric sheets. I didn't expect to get in because I didn't think of myself as a poet per se or like I was a songwriter. And that wasn't what they did, you know? That's such a great idea that you would do that. Yeah. Yeah. So I then I got in and I was like, oh, what the heck? Like, what am I going to do this? It was like a two year commitment or whatever. And I got into that program and quickly realized that I was so much more of a nerd than I ever thought that I was. Like my favorite aspects of this process was like the research and like a lot of my peers who were wonderful poets were like, oh, the research was like this kind of a hoop they had to jump through because they really just wanted to do workshops and things like that. And I was like, oh, no, this is this is it. This is like, I love this. I'm let's dig in some more. And I knew then that I wanted to keep doing research to answer my questions. But the questions that I had were like I said about, you know, how how and why does music and the arts have the effects that they have? Why are we able to, you know, I was once talking about it as like committing social heresies, like say things that you're not supposed to say to people you're not supposed to talk to. But the arts lets you do all of that. Why? Like, why would that be possible? And I spent a few years trying to figure out which what field that belongs in. Is that, you know, is that psychology? Is it sociology? I wound up in public health, which is just never my plan. Like I could tell you more of a story about like I started my PhD in rhetoric. I wound up in a circuitous way in public health. And I'm grateful for all the time because public health really somebody that I met when I first started my PhD program in rhetoric was like, why are you not researching this in public health? She was in public health. And I was like, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't really know what y'all do. I'm like, I'm a musician. I'm a poet. I I don't know what public health even is. I've never been in a STEM field. Like what? But it makes sense. Yeah, because it's everything. Like what is what contributes to the public's health can literally be everything. It's everything. And it was such a cool way for a thinker like me who always kind of takes this systems perspective and a meta perspective, like to be able to look at music and the arts from this zoomed out way of how is how is this affecting human beings? And what does that mean for our systems and our structures, whether that's a healthcare system, but also our schools, our communities, our general policies? What can we learn about how the arts affect us and how can we use that to make a better world? Just always an exciting intersection. It is. It's very exciting. And before I I want to get more into how it all works. But first, I'm curious was first, how did your experiences with music and healing sort of shape the research? And also, did you get any pushback from academia in any of this? Because, you know, they kind of I can only imagine the pushback you may have gotten on it, you know. Yeah. Okay. So, um, yes, my personal experience is really informed with the research because my research question was was kind of different than what other people in the intersection of music and health were talking about. Like a lot of times when I told people that I research intersections of like arts and public health or something like that, they immediately think of things like music fair. Or art therapy, or art therapy, dance therapy, which is really great. Those are wonderful things. It's not really what I particularly study or engage with the communities, although I have many fine colleagues who do. But my particular research question was a little was unique in the field. And it was more about why do people communicate different things via the arts than we do. Otherwise, what is the arts role in communication? What, how does it change what we're thinking? What we think of to say? It's not just that it changes what we say, but it changes what we think. And then whether we choose to share that and how we choose to share it and with whom we choose to share it. That's fascinating. What the heck? And my dissertation question wound up being around, what does that mean for health research? There, if there are things that people are only telling me as a singer, songwriter, after a show in a random city in the US, that that story of that person's suicide, or abuse history is something that they are not telling their doctor or their therapist. But that doctor or therapist, I guarantee you, thinks that they're working with adequate information about their patient or their client. And they don't know what they don't know. Right. And so I was just really curious around, OK, if it's true that the arts allow us to share things that we cannot share, otherwise, then how do we integrate that as a kind of data collection process? How do we learn from that data to improve our health care, to change our systems, to change what we know about our populations and their experiences? Because there's so much that we don't know if we're not. That's the easiest way I can lay it out. If you're not paying attention to the arts, there is a lot that you do not know, just inevitably. And if you open yourself to the information that can come via the arts, you're going to have more accurate information, better information. And so as you requested about pushback, I actually did not get any. It was such a kind of intuitive, inarguable point. Like just set up that way. But like if there are things that people are only sharing in the context of the art, then what might those things be? Why might that be? And then how are we going to integrate that into the way that we typically do health and medicine? And, you know, I was able to show that we got a lot more information from arts based methods than we did from traditional surveys. They were also more trauma responsive. We were able to share the information in much cooler ways with our communities. It went much further than just if you write some kind of boring report. So, yeah, there was a lot of openness to that work. And I also credit the institution that I was in, which had a big focus on how we unequity and on increasing our ability to connect with people who have historically not been heard or included. And that was important to them. We'll be right back with more of the Music Safety Podcast. Two percent. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, two percent, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness and building resilience in our strange, modern world. We'll be speaking with writers, researchers and other health and fitness experts and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side, a happier, more fulfilled, healthier, more efficient. Listen to two percent. That's T.W.O. Percent on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the Music Save Me podcast. Today, you are a leader on arts on prescription, which I think is amazing. I think it's amazing that an artist would come up and and just blow away all of these medical minds of things that could be without prescribing drugs as a source, more of arts experiences that work as like a medical intervention, which is astounding to me. How does prescribing music or arts work? Can you give us sort of like an example or? Yeah. Yeah, it works in so many different ways. I will say it sounds like a really novel idea, but this is this kind of thing has been going on in other countries for decades at this point. Why doesn't that surprise me, by the way? Yeah. People have been prescribing sort of like local community experiences, whether that's joining a choir or gardening or volunteering or things like that to benefit their health. And in the US, we've done versions of that. Like we do have in most communities, there are physicians who will refer patients to things like housing assistance or support groups or, you know, just basically things in a community that they know will help their patient that aren't typical like pharmacological interventions or, you know, like a physical therapist intervention or something like that. Just things that they know that their patient needs and it's in the community. And really, arts on prescription is just adding some more tools to that tool belt, right? Like, oh, if there are things in your community that can benefit people's health, there's no reason to not integrate that into your health care process, right? Like the not integrating it would not be scientific, right? Like there's no reason to not do that other than, of course, you know, how are you going to fund it? Who's going to pay for those kinds of logistic questions that do cause, you know, those are barriers in some communities. But we do see, you know, the first statewide arts on prescription program in the US is in Massachusetts called Culture RX. And, you know, across the state, a lot of different arts entities, whether it's different museums, playhouses, even park system, the park system in Massachusetts, dance studios have partnered with a variety of different health providers that could be a pediatric, a chain of pediatric offices, some people who are doing work with Parkinson's patients, young people, like whatever the specific health provider was trying to do, they were partnered with arts organizations to come up with new ways to benefit those patients. And so, yeah, we saw an evaluation of that program and in many other programs across the US that have come up since then, we see people being prescribed experiences in their community, arts, culture, and nature in order to benefit their health, their mental health, their physical health, their quality of life. And typically with a prescription, the patient does not have to pay for that experience. It's provided for free. It's amazing. And how much does focus have to do with this? Focusing your mind on something in the world of art or, you know, experience, that type of thing? Oh, it's a great question. Yeah, it really just depends on what the outcomes are that you're looking for. Certainly, if somebody is, we've heard from some therapists, for example, that if they have a patient who's who's kind of stuck in a way of life, they want to get passed, but they're not sure how or maybe they've had a lot of rumination, then yeah, kind of some kind of novel experience that interrupts that and jolts them out of that and maybe helps them to have a different thought about something can be really helpful. So, yeah, sometimes it is a change of focus combined with some other things or certainly stress reduction people who are experiencing life stress and anxiety to be able to, if you're taking a class, that's maybe, maybe you're learning glass blowing, I don't know, or pottery or you're writing a song or a poem, then that that time that you're spending doing that we have seen that that can lower the heart rate, lower blood pressure, lower cortisol. And yeah, help people feel in general that they have had a kind of soothing experience. I would have to say doing this podcast is it for me for sure. I have to focus all of my crazy brains going in a million directions all the time and when I do this, I feel very grounded, especially when I get to talk to lovely people like yourself. I love that it started in Massachusetts. That's where I was born and raised. So, of course, another wonderful thing that comes out of there. I also spoke to a veteran who said to me that when he would take his archery courses when he came home from battle after it was pretty tough experience that point, you know, those eight seconds they would hold the bow back to focus on the target was so calming. And then when when that person found music, they realize while that eight seconds turned into like eight minutes and then eight hours and realizing that doing things that are, you know, within the arts and experience, artful experiences like that were really helpful. So it's so exciting. That's a great example. There's been so many of these arts and prescription programs that have been initiated for veterans specifically a veteran program in Florida and Georgia and kind of like all over the country. And there's a lot of programs that are like this that don't call themselves this, right? Like your your friends might a program might be an example of this that a program that has connected veterans, for example, or college students or whatever the case might be with a specific kind of arts program for their well being, but they might not think of themselves as quote unquote arts and prescription or might not be functioning in quite the same way, but they've been doing it for a long time. And it's always it's always interesting to hear from organizations all over of like how they've approached this work and how they're connecting it with people's health. It's very exciting. Now, as a part of culture, our acts, which by the way, is America's first arts prescription program from yours truly, which is just congratulations on that. What were the most surprising findings that you found with that? Oh, well, first, I have to say, I was so glad to evaluate that program, but I have to credit my amazing friends at Mass Cultural Council for their work kind of ideating around this and coming up with the coming up with the structure for it, which was just very courageous of them and have has led to so much so much great work across the country. But yeah, surprising findings we did, you know, in a way, because based on the research around arts impacts on health, we did expect to see certain kinds of things like only people who people who were being prescribed as experienced because they were lonely might have made some more connections. We and we saw that people who are prescribed this experience because of great stress or depression might see an alleviation of this sometimes. And we did see that what was surprising was our responses from the health care providers themselves, who told us that they were getting benefits from the existence of this program. That and not even and you might be thinking like, oh, maybe they went to the play or they went to the museum. The experience, no, the experience of being able to prescribe these kinds of things to their patients was so enlivening for them felt so good for them, especially at a time right after COVID where there was a lot of moral injury and a lot of kind of despair and a lot of people feeling like I do not have enough tools to really do right by my patients and I'm stuck. And the idea that you could have something like some physicians said like we're used to telling people you need to cut back on this, you need to stop doing this, you need to start doing this. And they said this was a chance to be like, here's this thing that you love and are interested in. Go do it. And that felt so good for them. One physician said, this feels like prescribing beauty. And they talked about the amazing reactions that they got from their patients. And so, yeah, we expected physicians to use it and be glad about it because we had heard things in advance from them about how they would use this and why it would be useful to them. But we did not expect that kind of emotional response to it. And I'm always thinking about those unexpected findings are sometimes the most fascinating parts of research, but also what that tells us about how integrating the arts benefits not only our patients, but also our systems and our providers and has these ripple effects that we might not expect. Absolutely. Now, for someone suffering from depression or anxiety right now, can you share a specific example, say, or guidance on how an arts prescription might help someone with that depression or anxiety? Well, one of the main things that we have found in the research is that it is really dependent on the person that there is not a universal activity that has universal results. What matters the most is that you are interested in the work, interested in the activity, interested in the pursuit, whatever it might be. So that personal interest has to be valued. So for yourself, if you're kind of like thinking about prescribing something for yourself, you might think of like, what is something that you're interested in, but you haven't given yourself time for what's what's the song that you love to hear. But you know what, you haven't heard it in several days or maybe several months, do you want to put that on? So there's a connection between your interest and curiosity as a human and the well-being benefits that you get. And then of course, you know, some things that are probably intuitive to people, you know, there are some kinds of music that can lead to rumination and you might not want to go down that path. But then we also know that there are types of music that when you need to cry will help you cry will help you feel your grief and it is helpful to move through that. So it can be helpful sometimes to have some guidance as far as, okay, when does this turn into me just sitting in a negative feeling in a way that's not actually helpful to me? And when is this helping me move through something? And oftentimes we can tap into that. We know for ourselves whether we're moving through something or moving into it and staying there, right? Yes. And if you need more energy, of course, these are some ways that we all self-medicate, like if you have to do a workout or clean your house, you might turn on a certain kind of song that energizes you. And that's real. There's, you know, measurable impacts of that. So if that's something that you feel inclined to do, like use it more intentionally, use it more mindfully, like, oh, I'm feeling just like bored and down. Okay, turn on some music. If you haven't thought to do that, it can be helpful for you. And that's true of like, not just music, but other things that energize you and that make you curious and interested in the world. These are things that the arts and culture in general offer us that we don't always purposefully tap into for our health. Yeah, with that, you know, you just got me with that gym thing because there isn't anybody that I know. And I even am a friend of mine, Georgia, she's up actually in Massachusetts, she is a fitness trainer full time. Like she does it every day and has to do it because she teaches classes. And I can't even imagine as just someone sitting at home with maybe like a treadmill that is more of like a clothing rack. How do you What is there any specific type of music or something that you would suggest to get you in that mood specifically Oh, no, I have the kinds of things that are go to for me things that feel like a kind of like a steady drum beat that's at a March temper tempo or higher. And these some of these things kind of feel like they're almost universal like something that really gets you going, but it's truly different for everybody. Some people will turn on, you know, something that for me would feel soothing and they're just like ready to go. Right. So it's again like giving yourself permission to tap into, well, you know, What does inspire me or feel energizing like that. And then here's the thing if you don't know Here's the permission slip to do your own experimenting like put on some different things and just notice the Emotion notice the heart rate notice what you feel like you want to do or like, oh, I really want to turn that off. Oh, that's interesting too. Why was it Was it too sad? Was it too boring? You know, and just being able to learn about your own tastes and how those might be useful to you. Yeah. And also stopping procrastination, which I think goes along with what was that that you said you were diagnosed with Oh, I'm neurodivergent. Yes, diagnosis in itself. Would you say that the procrastinating. What is it about a creative mind that constantly procrastinate It certainly can be for some neurodivergent folks. I tend to be a little bit the opposite and dive in and then no surprise, I could burn the candle at both ends just wanting to do do do all the time. But yeah, certainly it's a kind of It's a it can be traced to perfectionism. It can be traced to You know that that sense of Oh, there's sorry, my brain was like, I'm going to give you like we'll do whole pack. We could do a whole podcast and progress. I bet we could Is that when you're using both sides of your brain too much or is that kind of when you're cursed with having both brain sides working Oh, that's an interesting question. I'm not sure I'm not sure that there's a connection there, but I do think that people who procrastinate are are kind of having competing priorities in their own brains. And this is important, but this is also important. And you know, there is some connection as well. Procrastination can be caused by lots of different things, by the way, but one of them can also be You know, early signs of burnout that, you know, your body knows that you need to be resting, then you're telling it to like do this thing. And it's like, I really don't want to That might not just that might not just be laziness, which, you know, some sociologists would say that's not even a real thing. Like people are not lazy. Like we call it lazy when people need to rest, right. Right. So that's an interesting avenue to go down if you're interested. But like, Yes, sometimes it can be a sign that you you're putting off the work because you really do need to rest not just because you're you're stupid and can't get yourself to to work. But then other times you are you have plenty of rest and you just have these competing things that are going on and it can be easier to not do. Do anything than to try to figure out what the next step would be to take action. And then sometimes, you know, people with ADHD, for example, might need the Strong sense of like urgency that comes with a deadline. That's tomorrow morning in order to have enough dopamine to go ahead and do the work. And that's that's part of it too. Wow, there are so many directions we could go. I feel like we could probably fill a few hours discussing all the myriad ways we can combat Issues with the arts, which I think is one more question for you. If you don't mind what excites you the most about arts and healing arts and health, I should say research currently Hmm, I think It's been it's been the same for the last few years, but I would the thing that I find most interesting about something like arts and prescription is not just that all you can prescribe somebody the An arts day's experience and it can improve their condition or their life. But I what I'm interested in is what this tells us about the world overall that you know, you can change we can change even our most entrenched systems. It can seem like healthcare just is what it is. And here's how it works. And turns out like, no, that's not the case at all. There are people being doing really innovative Super fascinating things in healthcare systems in hospitals in Lots of facilities in university medical centers, like exploring lots of different things we can as a society decide what kind of systems we want to have what kinds of communities we want to have and we can decide to build those And for me, it's never just been Oh, isn't it so cool that art can improve people's health. It's more like for me. Like I never thought of myself as an arts advocate. I've always thought of myself as like an advocate for the things we need in order to thrive. It happens that art is one of those. And so I'm always encouraging people to to let this, you know, spark their creativity as far as what else can we change what else can we think bigger about That healthcare doesn't need to look one specific way. It can grow and change along with our sciences along with our understanding of how humans work and how we connect and what we need. And our other systems can change as well. We just have to have enough imagination to to envision what can and should be different and then act to make those changes and it's possible. And if and if you are suffering from burnout, even if you're doing the job that you love, I worked in radio for years and I could feel it building in me like I need to change something but I don't know what that is. What am I an idiot? I can't leave this job. It pays well. I'm doing what I always wanted to do. But yet, is there more and if you're if you're feeling that way, just know that you can change your life. I used to tell people all the time like whatever you've done, you can change. You can change if it's going to be a better thing for you. People are so afraid of change in general, I think. So it's nice to get permission from the doc to make the change. Yes. And you know, if I can speak to that for just one moment. Yes, please. There's somebody dealing with burnout. There's a couple of things that I often tell people like I think it's really important to recognize that especially if you're in a creative career, but many different types of careers that in the US at least we do not have a lot of supportive systems for these kinds of careers. And that is wearing. It's not your fault specifically if you're experiencing burnout and you're like, wow, I have a lot of unpredictability in my life. I have a lot of concern about my finances. I have concern about whether I'm ever going to be able to buy a house. You have young creative friends who are having that conversation, right? There are a lot of things. How am I going to pay for my own health care if I'm an independent musician or creative or things like that? There's really big questions and difficulties that are very real that have really real impacts on our brains and our bodies as a result of the systems and the communities and the structures that we live in and under. And sometimes reckoning with that can make us feel a little bit powerless. Like, well, I can't change those. So I'm stuck. But I have found in practice, it's often empowering because it helps people to stop putting all of the blame on themselves and be like, well, this is happening to me because I'm not good enough. I should be more talented. I should be more charismatic. I should be more energetic. I should be able to fix myself and heal myself, whatever, right? But when we recognize that there are structural factors, then a couple of things happen. We can find camaraderie with other people who are also affected by those. We can find pass-forward that include not just some kind of the things that we can do for ourselves, and there are plenty of those things, but also how we can impact our communities and our systems and change things for our entire industry. And it also helps us to get more imaginative about our work and how we want to engage it in the world. And then, of course, in addition to that, there are always ways that we can re-narrate our story and choose a different one. And if the story isn't one that you can tell and be healthy, find a different one because your health and your well-being is more important than any specific story, even if it's a really amazing one. On that note, Dr. Tasha Golden, thank you so much for coming on Music Save Me. Your journey from burning out and being a rock star to pioneering the science of arts and healing is just so inspiring to me, and I'm sure all of our listeners as well. And your story definitely reminds us that creativity can change and challenge and transform us. And also, if you'd like to learn more about Dr. Golden's work, you can find it at the International Arts and Mind Lab and her book Arts on Prescription, A Field Guide for U.S. Communities, and we'll definitely have links in the show notes. And also, I want to put out there that if you are grappling with burnout, like we've been discussing, or questioning your creative path, or just wanting to know which direction to go, please know you're not alone. Art can break us, but it can also lead to new beginnings. And I'm just so grateful that you were able to flesh that out of this conversation and hopefully give some people some hope out there. Dr. Golden, thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much. I did used to work with the International Arts and Mind Lab, but they don't have, I don't know if they would have a link to me now. They probably do. But I can add, well, I'll say it this way just in case you want to drop it in. But if people want to connect with me or find some free resources, they can go to tashagoldin.com. Slash Music Saved Me and get some free links to the Arts and Pre-Scription Field Guide we mentioned, some other things that might be interesting to you and feel free to reach out if you'd like to. Wait, so they can go to Dr. Tashagoldin.com. Slash Music Saved Me? It'll be tashagoldin.com slash Music Saved Me. That's great. Thank you so much. That's so wonderful to be connected to you and let's do some good work together. Yeah, thank you so much for your time. Have a great afternoon. Offering the products you need all in one place, from HVAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more, and all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock so your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRANJER, visit granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness and building resilience in our strange modern world. Put yourself through some hardships and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%. That's T-W-O percent on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.