How to change your personality

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CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce and more. And the best part? Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odoo for free at Odoo.com. That's Odoo.com. It's no I'm Hasenfeld. I'm unexplainable. I remember my first day in college when I realized I could be anyone I wanted to be. Like no one had any idea who I was. And I thought, what if I was suddenly this chill, easygoing, totally not neurotic guy? So I tried. And within a couple days, I had fully forgotten the entire plan. I was the same person I'd always been. But that doesn't mean changing who you are. Changing your personality is impossible. Today on the show, a conversation that first aired on another Vox podcast, the Gray Area. It's an interview that made me think differently about who I am and who it's possible to be. Here's the Gray Area with host John Elling. Today's guest is Olga Hazan. She's a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of the book Me But Better, The Science and Promise of Personality Change. The book is a joy to read, full of ideas, but also personal in the sense that Olga documents her year-long effort to change things she doesn't like about her own personality. Along the way, she does a nice job of weaving in the science and marking the limits of what we know and don't know. It's honest, curious, and reflective. And so it turns out is Olga. So I invited her on the show. Olga Hazan, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. Let's start with the basics here. Because personality is one of those concepts that we all intuitively understand what it signifies, at least loosely. But it is pretty tricky to define. You've now written a book on it, so give me your neatest, clearest definition. Yeah, personality is the consistent thoughts and behaviors that you have every day. And some researchers think that in addition to just having those thoughts and feelings and behaviors, they also help you achieve your goals. So depending on what your goals are, your personality kind of helps you get there. An example of this would be the personality trait of agreeableness, which helps you make friends and social connections. So people who tend to be more agreeable also tend to value friendships and connections and achieve more of those. You use the word consistent there. To what extent is personality just a performance? And to what extent is it something much more concrete? So personality is in some ways a performance. Let's say you describe yourself as an introvert, but you have to give a big talk. And it's very important to your career that this talk go well. You are probably going to perform, to a certain extent, extraversion. Or let's say you're going into a room full of investors and you have to raise money for your startup, but you're just a very introverted coder guy who just wants to code all day and not talk to anyone. You're going to perform extraversion in that situation too, because it's very important for you to get whatever is at the end of that performance. The money or the professional accolades or whatever comes with it. It doesn't have to be financial. It could be going on a first date is kind of a performance as well. So we do all perform elements of these traits every single day. But what most researchers think is that there is sort of a tendency that we all have toward a certain pattern of behaviors and thoughts that are more or less consistent, especially if we don't try to change them in any meaningful way. But you kind of get up and you have these little patterns that you fall into. And that's sort of like your, quote unquote, natural personality. So we have what people call the big five personality traits, neuroticism, extraversion, agreeableness, which you just mentioned, openness to experience, and conscientiousness. Are these categories generally accepted in the field of psychology? And how useful do you find them? They are generally accepted. This is, that's now like, if you read a personality study, it will be most likely based on the big five. So things like Ania Graham and Myers-Briggs are not generally accepted. That said, they are imperfect. There are some cultures that have traits that are very important in those cultures that the big five doesn't really pick up as much. Meanwhile, things like openness, it's sort of a catch-all. Like it doesn't really, it doesn't really map very cleanly onto someone's personality as other people would observe it. So yeah, it is valid, it has weaknesses, but personality is so hard to measure and kind of scientifically get your head around that it's sort of the best that we have right now. Well, part of the inspiration for this project is that you wanted to change some things about yourself. So what did you want to change? And why don't you love yourself, Olga? Don't you know you're good enough and smart enough and people like you? Why do you want to change? Yeah, so I did want to change, and I also love myself. The two are not mutually exclusive. Though I know that it can feel that way, that if you admit that you want to change, that it can feel like you're saying that you don't love yourself. But I think that's where the idea of personality traits as tools to help you achieve your goals can be really helpful. Because we all have goals we want to achieve, even if we all like our lives and ourselves. And for me, what I realized is that things were going well. I had a pretty nice life. Nothing was seriously wrong. But my reactions to situations were not benefiting me. They were kind of undermining me and making me not able to enjoy my life. So I start the book out with this actually great sounding now as a new parent of this great sounding day in Miami, where honestly, all that happened is that I got a bad haircut, then immediately had to get professional photos taken, then got stuck in traffic, and then had this weird debacle with a grocery store shopping cart. And honestly, just because of my high neuroticism at the time, the accumulation of all of those small things made me have this epic meltdown when I got back to my hotel. And I realized that that kind of happened a lot in various ways. Small things would happen that would make me not able to appreciate the big picture and not able to just be happy with what I have or be grateful. And so that's really what I wanted to work on is sort of appreciating my life for what it was. And also just outside of neuroticism, I really was feeling the COVID social isolation. And I wanted to deepen my social connections as well. So that's why I wanted to change. Would you say that you had or have a tendency to catastrophize? Because I do. And I don't know if that's a function of neuroticism or something else, but I would say that is the one thing that I'm trying most aggressively to stop. Is that tendency part of neuroticism, or is it a little more complicated than that? Yeah, it's definitely part of neuroticism. Neuroticism is sort of the trait that's... So to kind of simplify it, it's associated with depression and anxiety. And basically, all those are just like a feeling of threat. Like you just constantly see threats everywhere. You... The reason you're catastrophizing is not because you're silly or because you're not realistic, but because you kind of can see the threats coming from every direction. And you're like, how do I prevent those from happening? And that's what makes people who are high in neuroticism so miserable. Oh, I like the... I think it was Judd Brewer. The argument that you talk about in the book, that anxiety is a habit loop, where anxiety triggers the behavior of worry, which feels like it's a temporary relief, but really it just makes us more anxious in the long run. And this is something... This is something neurotic people do by default, right? I mean, it's just the first instinct. Oh yeah. I always thought anxiety and worry were the same thing, but worry is actually, it's a behavior. It's almost like a self soothing behavior. And people who are very anxious think that if you just worry enough, you won't be anxious anymore. But instead, worry kind of sometimes can make you more anxious. Like you're never gonna get to the end of the worrying. Well, it's also about the discomfort with uncertainty, right? You talk about like the neurotic person is the one who gets the, you know, have a second. Do you have a second slack from your boss and freaks out? I'm the type. If I get that, do you have a second out of nowhere from the boss? You know, I'm frowning for food stamps. Yeah. Like before lunch, you know what I mean? It's just my mind just goes there. Okay, this is becoming too much about me already. Oh, it's okay. Yeah, I know, I'm right there with you. But uncertainty is wrapped up with this, right? It's just, it's an uneasiness about what the future might hold and our ability to control or not control. And so you just, you're just anxious about the world. And I mean, I'm sure there's evolutionary utility in that, but boy, past a certain point, it just becomes pathological really. Yeah, I mean, that's a huge part of it is like, is, you know, neuroticism is all intertwined with a feeling of wanting control, of really fearing uncertainty. You know, in the modern world, it's all about learning how to live with uncertainty and accept that there is uncertainty in the world, you know, without letting it rule you basically, this sphere of uncertainty. What about agreeableness? Agreeableness sounds pretty agreeable. I mean, nobody wants to be called disagreeable, I don't think. But is agreeableness more complicated than that? I mean, how much agreeableness is too much? When do we need to be a little disagreeable? Yeah, agreeableness was one of the ones that I was working on. And it's basically like warmth and empathy toward others and also trust. And that element of agreeableness can be really good and it can deepen your relationships and give you more fulfilling friendships. Where some people say that like, they're actually too agreeable and they want to pair back is when they feel like they're being people pleasers. And they feel like people kind of walk all over them or like they don't know how to say no. So part of agreeableness is like learning how to communicate boundaries, how to like make friends, but also not just by saying yes to everything that your friends ask of you. And to still have your own boundaries and your own things that you're willing and not willing to do. So for your year long personality transformation project, you did focus on all five of these traits to varying degrees. Which did you find was the hardest to tweak in any direction? So neuroticism was the hardest by far for me. It is like, because the way to improve on neuroticism is meditation or like any kind of mindfulness practice. It can be like yoga, not core power, like slow contemplative yoga. It can be different forms of mindfulness, but it's basically mindfulness. And I found that really challenging. Like I am not a natural meditator. I kind of have a loop of like ongoing concerns and worries and to-do list when I'm not thinking about anything. I don't like it when people are too relaxed. I find that irritating. Really? Why? I just like, you know, I think it was a little bit hard for me to let go of my anxiety because on some level, I think, and I still sometimes kind of think this, I think that anxiety is protective, at least for me. It forces me to do things and it helps me. Like it is like the fire under me. And I think at times I was a little bit like, oh sure, this is fine for people who don't have a lot going on, but like I need my anxiety. How long did you try meditating? I mean, did you ultimately find it to be helpful? Did you score less neurotic at the end of that practice? I think I did meditation really, really seriously for about six months of this. And it did work in the sense that my neuroticism went down, but when I said that neuroticism is depression and anxiety, it was actually mostly my depression score that went down. So I became less depressed. And my anxiety also went down, but it was still like quite high. It was not as high as it had been, but it didn't go away completely. But I think one reason why I became less depressed is that the class that I took, which was called MBSR, it was the meditation class that I took, had a lot of like Buddhist teachings that were part of it. So one of the things that my meditation teacher said was, things happen that we don't like. And for me, even though obviously things happen that we don't like, I realized that I was someone who, when things would go wrong, I would start to blame myself very intensely. And I would have this like very intense self blame that would be very hard to break out of, even if it was something that was like clearly not my fault. It was like an act of God or like really awful traffic, or like just something that had nothing to do with me. I would start to be like, well, I should have left earlier. I should have blah, blah, blah. I should have predicted this. And I think just this reminder that things happen that we don't like and that everyone has things that happen in their life that they would rather not happen. And we all have to deal with that. I don't know, that was like weirdly very helpful to me. What is the scientifically best personality? And that look, there is a part of my philosophical soul that shudders even at asking this question, because I don't think science can make these kinds of value judgments. But what I'm getting at is, what does the research on happiness and personality tell us about what kinds of traits tend to be most correlated with happiness and wellbeing and a flourishing life? If your goal is happiness, which I am not saying that it has to be, there's more life than happiness. But if as far as like happiness, wellbeing, longevity, all those goodies, it's basically being high, but not too high on all of the five traits. So being pretty extroverted, pretty agreeable, pretty open to experiences, quite like very conscientious, and then very emotionally stable. You say in the book that extroverts are happier in part because they interpret ambiguous stimuli more positively. How true is this? I mean, I'm sure there are some people out there who might find this kind of claim a little crude. So how clear is the evidence on this? How confident are we that extroverts in general are happier? I mean, they certainly look like they're having more fun, but that's anecdotal. So the evidence that extroverts are happier is pretty consistent. It's been replicated like quite a few times, including by researchers who weren't connected to the original studies and were like dubious and they replicated it. And like the one researcher who did that, who I talked to is himself an introvert. So it is pretty clear. The reasons why are less clear. So as you mentioned, one interpretation is that they, they walk into a room full of people and they're all strangers and they don't immediately get a smile out of anyone. Like it's just kind of like kind of a straight face. Kind of people are like, what are you doing here? I, an introvert would be like, oh my God, I'm not supposed to be here. Nobody likes me. Like I, you know, I need to leave like, you know, kind of just like flee, flee, flee. It's that self talk, right? All that self chatter. Right, right, right. An extrovert would be like, oh, awesome. Like I just need to introduce myself around. And like pretty soon, like people warm up to me. Like they just like have a different interpretation of events that helps them be happier. They are more active. Like they're just always out and doing things. Like the people who are signed up for a million clubs and things are extroverts. And they have more social connections, not just friends. They also have more like weak ties, like more acquaintances, just people they talk to throughout the day. And that like helps them feel happier. Support for the show comes from One Password. You should not assume that just because you're a small business, you will fly under the radar. The reality is that small businesses are being targeted more and more by bad actors with nefarious intentions. But there are steps that even the smallest teams can take to foil cybercrime. One Password provides simple security that can help small teams tackle the number one vulnerability. Weak passwords. One Password provides centralized management to secure your company's logins. And they provide turnkey solutions that can be rolled out in hours, whether you have dedicated IT staff or not. One Password is designed to meet small teams where they are, but it's also built to grow with your company. However complex your security needs may get, One Password will stay with you every step of the way. You can take the first step to better security by securing your security. Find out more at OnePassword.com and start securing a re-login. Create in Canva Sheets. Create 50 signs fit for suburban streets. Done in a click? All complete. Sweet! Now imagine what your dreams can become when you put imagination to work at Canva.com. Support for Unexplainable comes from ShipStation. Running a fast growing business can mean hours each day, spent tracking orders and fielding customer requests, and that can leave you exhausted and feeling like there's more important work to do. If you don't love that sensation, maybe it's worth taking a look at ShipStation. ShipStation says their intelligence driven platform can save businesses up to 15 hours a week by streamlining order fulfillment. Their dashboard brings together order management, rate shopping, inventory and returns, warehouse tools and detailed analytics into one easy to use system. They can also print labels and bulk, send tracking updates directly to customers and automatically compare rates between major global carriers including discounted rates you might already have to find you the best shipping options. You can try ShipStation free for 60 days with full access to all features, no credit card needed. Just go to ShipStation.com and use code unexplainable for 60 days for free. And ShipStation says that 60 days should give you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you are saving on every shipment. That is ShipStation.com code unexplainable. ShipStation.com code unexplainable. Well, let's talk about change, the science of personality change. As you say in the book, there is this idea that at around 30, our personalities are set like plaster. How true is that? I mean, how fixed is our personality? So that idea is sort of not considered totally true anymore. There's been quite a bit of research that shows that even when people don't try to change, they actually end up changing over the course of their lives. So one example is that people get less neurotic as they get older. They also tend to get less open to experiences. So if you ever notice that people get more conservative as they get older, that could be because openness to experiences goes down. In studies where they follow people over decades and decades, most of those people in those studies change on at least one personality trait from young adulthood to late adulthood. So it's true. Like you're not going to be like unrecognizable, probably, but people do change over time, just kind of naturally. But what kind of the heart of my book is about is about changing your personality intentionally, which is sort of an even newer branch of research where they actually ask people if they would like to change their personalities, give them activities that are meant to help change their personalities and then kind of measure their personalities after the fact. And so then your personality would change even more. This part of it is so interesting to me. I mean, I've had psychologists on the show before people like Paul Bloom, who I love. I think he's just fantastic. And I may be bastardizing his argument here. So if you're listening, Paul, you can write in and tell me. But he always says something to the effect, not necessarily that we look, you are your brain. And that's it. But he does suggest that, you know, kind of like, by the time you're pretty young, you know, five, six, seven, eight, you know, whatever, somewhere around there, your personality is kind of clear and it's kind of constant. Like you kind of are what you are. You can tinker a little bit at the margins and the environment matters. Of course, it always matters, but that you really are sort of you kind of are what you are, which isn't to say that you can't you can't change anything. But you kind of are what you are. I mean, do you think that is a little overstated? Yeah, I mean, I think so there is a little bit of truth to that. So so part of personality is inherited, right? It's it is genetic. So like in some ways you start to see someone's personality emerge in childhood and like they're going to be kind of like that, you know, probably for the rest of their lives, like, you know, barring anything major. But when you talk about tinkering at the margins, like that is actually quite important. Like a lot of therapy is basically just tinkering at the margins. Like one of the books that I read kind of in in reporting out my book is 10 percent happier. And that was Dan Harris meditating every day for like an hour a day just to become 10 percent happier. That's a lot, though. 10 percent is a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, but that's so like it kind of is it depends on how you look at it. Like I was a really anxious kid and I'm an anxious adult. You know, does that mean that I am exactly the same as I was when I was seven? I mean, you know, I'm recognizable, but I also think that I have. Knowledge and tools now to like control my anxiety a lot better, obviously, than I did when I was a kid or a teen, even a young adult. So I don't know. I think that's that's true, but also the margins are really important. Yeah. No, there's a lot of difference in little tweaks here and there to do matter. So, you know, thoughts and behaviors are these two elements of personality. I mean, how much power do we really have to alter our behavior by consciously deliberately altering our thoughts? I mean, how clear is that relationship? Because if it is fairly clear that that is seems like one of the more reliable ways to go about, you know, making some of these tweaks. The traits where it's all behavioral are definitely the easiest to change. So conscientiousness is a good example of this. It's the one that's all about being organized and on time, eating healthy, you know, exercising. What they found is basically that you don't have to like really want it in order to become more conscientious. You just kind of have to do the stuff associated with conscientiousness. So like making the to-do list, making the calendar reminders, leaving, you know, whatever, 10 minutes earlier, you know, decluttering your closets. Like if you do enough of that stuff kind of regularly and consistently, that is conscientiousness. Like you will become more conscientious. You will get stuff done and like achieve your goals and have a higher level of conscientiousness with some of the other ones like neuroticism or even agreeableness. Like the reason why they're harder to change is that you have to really want it. And it is kind of more about your thought processes and like challenging your thoughts and, you know, thinking about situations differently. Like if I was to revisit that day in Florida now or in Miami, I wouldn't necessarily like do anything differently. I would just think about it differently. And I would be less anxious as a result of how I was thinking about it. But like that is obviously harder than like making a to-do list. Well, I did. I like that quote from Jerome Bruner in the book. You more likely act yourself into feeling than feel yourself into action, which kind of just feels like, you know, fake it till you make it. So Nate Hudson, who's like the main researcher that does the personality change research is I think my quote from him was like fake it till you make it is the reasonable way to do personality change. And that's because a lot of this is sort of like the actions kind of make you think about things differently. So one one example for me was with Extraversion, where I really did not want to go to all the stuff that I signed up for. So I signed up for like improv class. And I just really dreaded it every single time. I did not really want to go. But I kind of found that if I like made myself go, it would make me happier. And I did have a good time and I enjoyed it. But it just like my thought process around improv was I'm not good at it. I'm not going to have fun. I don't like this. I'm an introvert. So that was like sort of the clearest example of how sometimes you just kind of have to do something and the thoughts will follow from there. I want to talk more about improv. I've always wanted to do it. But again, I'm an introvert and I feel like I would just be paralyzed up there. But tell me about how long you did that and how transformative it was. Improv was probably one of the best things I did and also the scariest. I did that for about a year, kind of like, but it was like several sessions of improv that, I guess, altogether was about a year of a year's worth. And I was, at times, so afraid that I froze up and like didn't know what to say next. But something that's really cool about improv is that, like, it's all about learning that other people can supply. Part of the interaction, right? Like, like you you're not responsible for everything going right in improv. It's OK if things are just kind of chaotic and strange and not going perfectly. And I don't know, it's like a good lesson to have for social interaction, because a lot of times when you're just out there dealing with people, it's going to be kind of crazy and you just kind of have to roll with it. And I don't know, to me, that was that was like a good thing to see. Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi-acid portfolio of stocks, bonds and options and now generated assets, which allow you to turn any idea into an investable index with AI. Go to public.com slash podcast and earn an uncapped one percent bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash podcast. Paid for by public investing, brokerage services by open to the public investing Inc. member FINRA and SIPC, advisory service by public advisors, LLC, SEC registered advisor, generated assets as an interactive analysis tool. 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Well, look, there's a I think a very important question you pose near the end. And I want to ask it here. How do you know when to keep trying to change? How do you know when you've tried enough to change? How do you know when to keep trying to change? How do you know when you've tried enough to change? How do you know when to keep trying to change? How do you know when you've tried enough? Isn't there some point at which you do more harm by resisting who you are and would be better off just making peace with that? Yeah, I mean, this is like, you know, it's not going to be a hard and fast rule for everyone. But what I found is that when I was doing things that were like no longer enjoyable on any level and were not getting me any closer to like what I valued or like what I actually wanted is sort of when I would give up on them. So the big example of this is that I I led a meetup group for a while based around foreign films, which is my hobby. And I I just like didn't really enjoy it. I just don't like running meetings. I I I do moderate professionally for work, but like I just don't like to do it in my free time. I guess I just and it kind of like wasn't, you know, I didn't have that high afterward, like I did after improv, where I was like, yes, that was so fun. I kind of felt just like, oh, thank God, that's over. And to me, that was like a sign that it was maybe just time to wrap up and like hand it over to someone else. And I think that's OK. Like you don't, you know, trying something doesn't mean you're like stuck with it for life. Yeah, look, I I ask this in part because I am sympathetic to the idea that. You know, being a little maladapted to a world that's actually pretty shitty in lots of ways isn't the worst thing. And our society has a way of conspiring to make good and honest people feel weird and unlikeable, and that's a society problem, not a you problem. But also it is generally healthy to be well adjusted. So I don't want to gloss over that either. Yeah, and I mean, even things like neuroticism, you know, in small amounts or in certain situations can have some benefits. Like, I mean, I never did away with my anxiety completely. It's now like at more manageable levels, but it's it's not like gone. And, you know, in the last chapter, I interview Tracey Dennis Tawari, who is a psychologist, and she talks about how anxiety can have some positive elements. And when her son was born, he had like a heart condition. And she talks about how anxiety really helped her prioritize, like finding the right specialists, you know, getting him the right treatment, coming up with a good treatment plan, you know, all of the things that are involved in caring for a sick child. It would be hard to do that stuff if you were completely not anxious, like if you just didn't care about anything. Like anxiety is in some ways a way of caring. So, you know, I think it's fine to like find ways of living with your anxiety, but but to not like do away with it entirely. Well, what are the most concrete, practical interventions you discovered along the way that people might find useful in their own efforts to improve or align their values and actions? Sure, I will just toss some out that I found worked really well for me. I would sign up for something. Don't just tell yourself you're going to go out to drinks with your friends more like sign up for a thing that like requires you to be there with improv, you couldn't miss more than two classes. So you had to go even if you didn't feel like going. Accountability, right? There's some accountability. Yeah, like that's what I would do for extraversion is I would sign up for a thing. For conscientiousness, I would actually start by decluttering. Like if you feel like you're really disorganized before trying to like, quote unquote, get organized, I would just throw away as much stuff as possible. That was like the loud and clear thing that all the professional organizers told me is that like it's all about just like having less stuff in your life. And that can be like, you know, commitments to and like sort of extraneous stuff that you're doing. And I honestly would take a meditation class for anyone who's who's interested in, you know, reducing their neuroticism to whatever degree, even if not, like it's just like an interesting intellectual exercise and, you know, possibly an emotional exercise. Yeah, I found the ACT acronym, the ACT acronym, pretty handy actually. It's, you know, accept your negative feelings, commit to your values and take action. And you can say anything you like about that. But it certainly the acceptance part seems really fundamental. I mean, one thing that comes across in a lot of the stories you tell in the book is that it doesn't matter who you are, what you do, where you are, you're going to have negative feelings all the damn time. And we add so much unnecessary suffering to our lives when we resist those feelings. Anyway, I'll let you say anything you want about that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I thought I found that so helpful. And that was really how a lot of the people who I talked to who did change their personalities kind of muddled through because those first few attempts at being extroverted or, you know, even being conscientious can feel really uncomfortable. Like getting up at 5 a.m. to go for a run is uncomfortable. And so they really were just like, I'm going to feel uncomfortable. Like I'm not going to like this at first, but it's important to me that I keep doing this. And so I'm going to take action and actually do it. And I don't know, I think that's like a good little rule to live by for things that matter to you. How important is it to really believe in your own agency? Is that a fundamental precondition of any kind of change to believe that it's possible, that you have the freedom and the will to do that? The argument that I always get into with people is like, some people think that like people never change, right? And kind of the extension of that is like, I will never change because people never change. And if that's truly what you think, you probably aren't going to try to change and you probably won't change. There does have to be like some fundamental openness to change in order to even like embark on something like this, because it takes a lot of like energy and courage to do some of this stuff. And you can't follow through on it if you think that like it's not going to work. All right. Once again, the book is called Me But Better, The Science and Promise of Personality Change. Olga Hazan, this was fun. Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much for having me. This was great. All right. I hope you enjoyed this episode. I know I did. Personality change is something I thought about a lot over the years in part because I'm constantly trying to fix things about myself. This book and this conversation gave me some useful perspective on that, both that it's completely cool to want to improve things about yourself, but also it's important to make peace with who you are and not make yourself miserable fighting that. But as always, I want to know what you think. So drop us a line at the gray area at box.com or leave us a message on our new voicemail line at 1-800-214-5749. And once you're finished with that, please go ahead, rate and review and subscribe to the podcast. This episode was produced by Beth Morrissey, edited by Jorge Just, engineered by Christian Ayala, fact checked by Melissa Hirsch and Alex O'Vrington wrote our theme music. 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