This Week in Startups
This Week in Startups

Why quantum has been "10 years away" for 30 years | E2316

45 min
•Jul 24, 2026about 1 month ago
Listen to Episode
Summary

Host Jason Calacanis interviews Kazu Nakashogi, founder of Yakumo, a Kyoto-based quantum computing hardware startup using neutral atom technology. The conversation covers why quantum computing has remained '10 years away' for decades, the current state of qubit development, error correction challenges, and the realistic timeline to commercialization around 2030. Topics also include Japan's deep tech startup ecosystem, university IP spin-outs, international fundraising, and the looming threat quantum poses to RSA cryptography.

Insights
  • The number of qubits needed to solve practical problems has dropped from ~1 million to ~10,000 due to software and algorithm improvements, while physical qubit counts are rapidly approaching that threshold — making 2030 a credible commercialization target.
  • Neutral atom qubits may be 100–1,000x cheaper per qubit than superconducting alternatives (used by Google and IBM), giving startups like Yakumo a significant cost and scalability advantage.
  • Quantum computers are not general-purpose replacements for CPUs/GPUs — they are specialized accelerators best suited for combinatorics, cryptography, quantum chemistry, and potentially AI training/inference.
  • The 'harvest now, decrypt later' threat is real: adversarial nations are already collecting RSA-encrypted data today, intending to decrypt it once quantum computers reach sufficient scale.
  • Japan's deep tech startup ecosystem around university IP spin-outs is still maturing, with no standardized methodology for IP transfer — making early-stage fundraising and commercialization more complex than in the US.
Trends
Neutral atom quantum computing emerging as a cost-competitive alternative to superconducting qubit architecturesQuantum error correction (QEC) advances accelerating the path to fault-tolerant quantum computers (FTQC) by 2030Hybrid classical-quantum computing architectures becoming the near-term deployment model, analogous to hybrid vehiclesQuantum-as-a-Service (QaaS) and quantum data services emerging as post-2035 business models for quantum hardware companiesAI being used to improve quantum error correction, while quantum computing is expected to eventually enhance AI model training and inferenceGeopolitical competition in quantum computing intensifying among the US, China, EU, and Japan — with limited research transparencyUniversity deep tech spin-outs gaining momentum in Japan, though lacking standardized IP commercialization frameworksPost-quantum cryptography urgency growing as researchers estimate RSA vulnerability within 5–10 yearsInternational quantum supply chains forming around specialized components like high-fidelity lasers, with key players in Japan and DenmarkQuantum chemistry identified as a major near-term application vertical beyond cryptography
Topics
Neutral atom quantum computing hardwareQuantum error correction (QEC) and fault-tolerant quantum computing (FTQC)Qubit scalability and the path to 10,000+ physical qubitsRSA cryptography vulnerability and harvest-now-decrypt-later attacksHybrid quantum-classical computing architecturesUniversity IP spin-out processes in Japan vs. the USDeep tech startup fundraising and runway managementQuantum computing business models and commercialization timelinesAI for quantum error correction and quantum for AI inferenceGeopolitical competition in quantum computing (US, China, EU, Japan)Quantum computing energy efficiency vs. classical computersQuantum chemistry as an emerging application verticalJapan's deep tech startup ecosystem and talent acquisitionQuantum supply chain development (lasers, vacuum chambers)Post-quantum cryptography and AES key length strategies
Companies
Yakumo
Kyoto-based neutral atom quantum computing hardware startup, founded 15 months ago with ~70 employees.
Google
Mentioned as a major player using superconducting qubits for quantum computing development.
IBM
Cited as a superconducting qubit quantum computing leader; quantum access priced at ~$3,000/hour.
Microsoft
Mentioned as one of the large companies publicly active in quantum computing development.
Toyota
Used as an analogy for Yakumo's full-stack integration model; also has a quantum computer installed in Japan.
Hamamatsu Photonics
Japanese photonics company supplying high-fidelity lasers critical to Yakumo's neutral atom quantum computer.
InnoKT Photonics
Copenhagen-based subsidiary of Hamamatsu Photonics creating high-power lasers for neutral atom quantum computing.
Kyoto University
University from which Yakumo was spun out; provides research foundation and investor network connections.
Alai Ventures
US venture capital firm that made its first investment in Japan by participating in Yakumo's seed extension round.
Corn Nation
French VC firm specializing in quantum computing hardware; made its first Japan investment in Yakumo.
Kyoto ICAP
Kyoto University's corporate venture arm that invested in Yakumo and connected them to US investors.
IMS (Institute for Molecular Science)
Japanese research institute co-founding Yakumo alongside Kyoto University through two leading professors.
Toshiba
Mentioned for its SQBM quantum product, cited as costing ~$90/hour for access.
Meta
Referenced as an analogy for potential quantum data-as-a-service business models.
Scale AI
Referenced as an analogy for a future quantum data and entropy-as-a-service business model.
MIT
Researchers from MIT published papers on how quantum computing could enhance AI in the future.
OpenAI
Mentioned as an analogy — talking to Yakumo's founder is like talking to OpenAI or DeepMind 10 years ago.
DeepMind
Mentioned alongside OpenAI as an analogy for the early-stage potential of Yakumo's quantum work.
People
Kazu Nakashogi
Guest founder of Kyoto-based neutral atom quantum computing startup Yakumo, discussing hardware, fundraising, and com...
Jason Calacanis
Host interviewing Kazu Nakashogi about quantum computing hardware and the startup ecosystem in Japan.
Yoshiro Takashi
Kyoto University professor with 30+ years studying neutral atoms (Ytterbium); advisor and co-founder of Yakumo.
Kenji Omori
Head of IMS and co-founding scientific advisor of Yakumo alongside Kyoto University's Professor Takashi.
Karthik
Audience member who asked about quantum cost reduction and post-quantum cryptography strategies.
Quotes
"The number we need for doing actual calculation is decreasing. A number of the physical qubit is close to that number. So we believe that we reach to like two of them meet each other close to 2030."
Kazu Nakashogi
"Once we use quantum computers, maybe people believe that we can do more nice, very fast calculation compared to CPU or GPU. But this is not correct. We can apply quantum computer for particular questions or problems."
Kazu Nakashogi
"Some country already collected top secret which is already protected by RSA cryptography. But they already have that. So they have the data, they just haven't cracked it. And once they create quantum computer — take now encrypted data, solve later."
Kazu Nakashogi
"I believe quantum computer could be the very, very great accelerator to make classical computer even smarter. So there would be a hybrid computer with both — like a hybrid Toyota Prius."
Kazu Nakashogi
"This conversation is literally like talking to OpenAI or DeepMind 10 years ago."
Jason Calacanis
Full Transcript
3 Speakers
Speaker A

All right, everybody, welcome back. It's this week in Startups from Tokyo. Yes, we're at Foundry University. I'm back in Tokyo. I go twice a year. I go in the summer. It's 96 degrees and 100% humidity. It's the exact opposite of what happens in January when I come here to do Founder University and ski for a week. But I love coming to Japan. If you're a founder or an investor and you're in the this week in startups or the launch or syndicate family, you can join us for Angel University, you can apply for that. We do that twice a year here in Tokyo. If you're a founder, you can apply for Founder University website. You'll see Japan, you'll see Riyadh in Saudi Arabia and then you'll see the US edition. You can come to any of those editions, you can apply. It's a bit competitive to get in. We like to look for teams of two or three founders. For Founder University, you don't even have to be incorporated yet, but you should have a project, a product in market, maybe one customer, a pilot, and then for our launch accelerator, need to have a couple of customers. And that's where we invest in companies. And finally we have the syndicate.com where if you're an angel investor, you can join. And twice a month or so we share one of the deals, we're investing in it and with you and as an angel investor, you can put as little as 5 or $10,000 into a deal well below the cap or the minimum that most founders charge. So, you know, join us for any of those programs and make sure you subscribe to this week in Startups as well on your podcast player. When I'm in Japan, my team looks for the most successful, the most inspiring founders for me to meet with while I'm here. And we're very lucky. Today we have Kazu Nakashogi. Nakashogi.

0:00

Speaker B

Yeah, absolutely.

1:52

Speaker A

Oh, I got it.

1:53

Speaker C

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1:54

Speaker A

And you're with a company, Yakumo.

2:37

Speaker B

Yakumo.

2:39

Speaker A

Yakumo, which is spelled Y A Q U M A. And you're building quantum computers.

2:40

Speaker B

Hardware.

2:47

Speaker A

Yes, hardware. And hardware is hard heart. Yeah, of course, hardware is very hard. Quantum computing has been five to 10 years away for the past 30 years. Why is it taking so long?

2:48

Speaker B

That's really question more so of difficulty parts coming from hardware itself. Ah yes. So we try to generate very special corrugated units. Qpu. Quantum processing units.

3:02

Speaker A

Quantum processing units, yeah.

3:17

Speaker B

That's why you call it QPU instead of cpu.

3:19

Speaker A

Got it.

3:21

Speaker B

Right. But it's really hard to create those kind of things as a hardware and we have to make it bunch of number of QPU to do very useful calculation.

3:22

Speaker A

And. And from my understanding of qubits, this is instead of 1 or 0, you get to have 1, 0 or neither

3:32

Speaker B

1 or 0 at the same time.

3:46

Speaker A

At the same time, yes.

3:48

Speaker B

Super positions.

3:49

Speaker A

So you could have each of those positions simultaneously.

3:50

Speaker B

Technically, yes.

3:53

Speaker A

Technically, yes. So explain to, you know, founders in technology who use GPUs and CPUs all day long, why is this the white whale? Why is this the holy grail of computing? Why is this the next paradigm? Why is it so powerful?

3:54

Speaker B

Thank you very much. So first of all, I think there is some big misconception about quantum computer.

4:13

Speaker A

Okay.

4:20

Speaker B

Once we use quantum computers, maybe people believe that, oh, maybe we can do more nice, very fast calculation compared to CPU or gpu. But this is. First of all, it's not correct. Ah yes. We can apply quantum computer for particular questions or problems. For example, combinations or like an RSA clip door. Yes, those kind of difficult question. We can only we can apply those kind of problems to quantum computer or quantum calculations.

4:21

Speaker A

And we saw Google and Microsoft and some other quantum computer companies went public over the last maybe two or three years.

4:55

Speaker B

Exactly.

5:05

Speaker A

Lots of excitement, of course. And we had the same wave of excitement five or ten years ago. But it seems like it's getting closer and closer to having an application in the real world. When will we see a company, a startup that uses a quantum computer to solve a problem in the world as opposed to all these companies spending billions of dollars trying to get a quantum computer to work.

5:05

Speaker B

Yes.

5:35

Speaker A

So when do they have enough power and enough software? And maybe the compilers and the tools have to be built as well. I understand. To actually make it accessible to founders at startup university.

5:36

Speaker C

Yes.

5:50

Speaker A

Yeah, Startups at Founder University.

5:51

Speaker B

Of course, of course. So that is really really important question. So there's two way to understand these circumstances or at the same time. So first of all, if you're looking at question or some kind of programs that quantum computer going to solve in the past, for example 5 years ago people believing that we need 1 million qubit qpu to solve some certain problems. But recently that number is drastically decreased.

5:52

Speaker A

Oh, okay.

6:25

Speaker C

Yeah.

6:26

Speaker B

Close to for example 10,000 qubit.

6:26

Speaker A

Got it.

6:29

Speaker B

Just 1% of what we expected 10 years ago. For example, since we updated some softwares algorithms or some other like schemes for example, besides in terms of the hardware looking back, for example, 10 years ago we only have maybe 1 to 10 qubit.

6:30

Speaker A

Wow.

6:50

Speaker B

Well, it's super tiny.

6:50

Speaker A

That's it.

6:51

Speaker B

Super tiny. But listen tree.

6:52

Speaker A

It's less than like a punch card.

6:55

Speaker B

Exactly. From an old computer. Exactly. But recently for example one of the United States University demonstrated 6,000 physical qubit.

6:57

Speaker A

Wow.

7:07

Speaker B

It's amazing. So what I mean is like the number we need for doing actual calculation is decreasing. A number of the physical qubit is close to that numbers. So we believe that we reach to like two of them meet each other's close to 2030 for example in next four to five years.

7:08

Speaker A

Got it. So we'll be sitting here in five years and there'll be companies who have quantum computers in their data center using them.

7:24

Speaker B

Of course, we can imagine that. And some of the quantum computer already installed into data center already.

7:35

Speaker A

Yes.

7:39

Speaker B

For example in Japan, Toyota.

7:40

Speaker A

Yeah, there's one there.

7:42

Speaker B

Yeah, of course.

7:44

Speaker A

Got it. And it's being used for what? Just doing simple math calculations now and just trying to make it work. Because my other understanding is it's not consistent yet. It's maybe fragile or brittle.

7:44

Speaker B

Yes.

7:59

Speaker A

So why is it fragile or brittle?

8:00

Speaker B

Yes. Thank you very much for question. So once we do quantum calculations. Yeah, they made a lot of error. For example, every thousand times, every 100 times they make error. Oh, oh yeah.

8:02

Speaker A

It's a problem.

8:16

Speaker B

It's problem, right?

8:17

Speaker C

Yeah.

8:18

Speaker B

And this is big problem. So we have to correct this error so called. We call it quantum error collections.

8:18

Speaker A

Ah, quantum error corrections.

8:25

Speaker B

Exactly. So we call it qech. And by doing so we have to protect the information that qubit has. So by doing so we can create very scalable, very robust quantum computer. So this is listen to approach the human being try to take.

8:27

Speaker A

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8:44

Speaker B

Yes.

9:47

Speaker A

And you maybe sometimes I'll have somebody who's having a problem with their laptop and they say, when's the last time you rebooted? And they're like, I never. I've never rebooted my computer. I've had it for a year.

9:47

Speaker C

Yeah.

9:58

Speaker A

And I say, oh, I'm from the 1980s. In the 1980s, you would reboot your computer every two hours to make sure you didn't have memory leaks or problems. And the hard drive was working okay because you wanted the software to the operating system to be fresh and it would run faster. And then by the end of the day, your computer would be sluggish, memory leaks, and you have to unload one program to run the other. It reminds me of what you're going through right now.

9:59

Speaker B

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, definitely. Right. Probably what we expected. Experience like 60 or 50 years ago. Yeah. For classical computer.

10:24

Speaker A

Yes.

10:34

Speaker B

We experience in the quantum computer at this moment.

10:35

Speaker A

Now you're doing something different at Yakuma.

10:38

Speaker B

Yes.

10:41

Speaker A

With the chemicals or the material science. Yeah.

10:42

Speaker B

So you're talking about application or hardware.

10:48

Speaker A

No, the hardware itself is slightly different.

10:50

Speaker B

Yes.

10:53

Speaker A

Or it's advanced and they're using different materials now. I understand.

10:53

Speaker B

Yeah. Thank you very much for asking that. So I think there's a couple of methodologies to do quantum calculations. For example, if you're looking back the history of classical computers, let's say if you're using this kind of cpu. Yeah. This is like most of the CPU is created by silicon. Right. But maybe 60 or 50 years ago, I don't know. We try to use vacuum chamber to do calculation. Isn't it for classical Computations same. So at this moment, quantum computer market tried to test which kind of QPU is the best for quantum calculations.

10:57

Speaker A

The quantum processing unit.

11:36

Speaker B

Exactly. So for example, Google or IBM, this kind of large amazing company, tried to create QPU by using super conducting qubit superconducting cubes. Yeah. That's why they have to put those kind chips into huge refrigerator to make it super, super chill.

11:38

Speaker A

It has to be super chill.

11:55

Speaker B

Absolutely, yeah. And some people try to use ions which have a charge like plus ions. Yeah.

11:57

Speaker A

Like plasma.

12:04

Speaker B

Yeah, yeah, they have charge and we use atoms, ah, neutral atoms. We don't have any charge. We try to configure it or try to create array of the atoms in the vacuum chamber to use one atom, an atom as a qubit. Got it, yeah. And some people try to use photons or semiconductors to do quantum fabrication at the same time. But there's so many very severe like, you know, competitive landscape happening at this moment.

12:05

Speaker A

So let's talk about this. Is your first startup company building? Yes. We have some hardware startups here. Hardware is hard. You've picked the hardest of the hardware because you have a know, five year window to commercialization maybe. And you came out of a university.

12:36

Speaker B

Yes.

12:53

Speaker A

And your company is based in Kyoto. Yes. So you get to have a beautiful life, a beautiful city.

12:54

Speaker B

Thanks.

13:00

Speaker A

And all that talent from Kyoto University. Yeah.

13:01

Speaker B

Oh some of them, yes, of course, yeah.

13:04

Speaker A

So you came out of the university. Explain to us how technology in a university, how they do the IP transfer into a commercial organization, not just at Kyoto, not just your company, but just generally how that happens because some venture capitalists and Stanford does this and some venture capital specialize or investors specialize in going to universities and saying what are the students working on, what are the professors working on? Is there anything we can spin out? I think they will generally say a spin out.

13:06

Speaker B

Yeah, yeah, of course.

13:38

Speaker A

Or is there a term for taking IP out of the university, like a technical term or term of art? Do you know one?

13:40

Speaker B

Probably. I'm not super familiar with the situation in United States.

13:47

Speaker C

Got it.

13:50

Speaker B

But compared to overseas Japan or Japanese university have not so much experiences to use IP as a startup, as a spin up.

13:51

Speaker A

Got it.

14:01

Speaker B

Yeah. So.

14:02

Speaker A

So it's, it's pretty new here, I would say.

14:03

Speaker B

So normally we call it deep tech startups.

14:05

Speaker A

Deep tech startup.

14:08

Speaker B

Yeah. In Japan, which is used in the IP coming out from university.

14:09

Speaker A

Right.

14:13

Speaker B

And at this moment there's not very solid methodology how to use IP from university to startup. Some people choose stock options, pay for university.

14:14

Speaker A

So the university can get some equity.

14:30

Speaker B

Exactly.

14:31

Speaker A

Or in the United States, sometimes we hear about a royalty for some number of years. And yeah, this is. Or maybe even a cash payment, I guess people could pay to take it out. But yes, the university wants. The university's motivation is to recoup some money that they invested. Yeah. In the research. So you were there for some number of years, they spent some money on you and maybe gave you some resources. And then also maybe they could make a profit, some kind of profit that then helps the university invest in the

14:32

Speaker B

next set of reinvestment.

15:04

Speaker A

Yeah, yeah. So it becomes Evergreen.

15:05

Speaker B

Yeah, I hope so.

15:07

Speaker C

Yeah.

15:08

Speaker A

And this is a negotiation that occurs between the university and the founder yourself, actually.

15:08

Speaker B

Yeah. Tough negotiation, to be honest.

15:13

Speaker A

Always a tough negotiation.

15:15

Speaker B

Sometimes it's not easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:16

Speaker A

So they want to make sure they get a good deal, and you have to get a good deal. Or you can just leave and not take the ip.

15:18

Speaker B

Of course.

15:24

Speaker A

Yeah. So it's. Let's talk a little bit about how you. You've raised over 10 million, I think, for the company. You got some grants, you have some venture capital, you've done a seed round. How do you think about Runway? Most companies here, if they're building software or maybe consumer hardware, they can think about 12 months of Runway, 18 months of Runway, maybe getting to their first dollar of revenue in six months, three months, nine months, depending on the company type. How do you think about Runway and when you have to make money and how you keep pushing the team to get to revenue even though it might take you years to commercialize?

15:24

Speaker B

Thank you very much. So that's pretty subject to the type of the startup, of course, hardware startup, software startup. But for our case, we expected, for example, 18 months. Long way after we. We just completed our seed extension round.

16:06

Speaker A

Oh, congratulations.

16:22

Speaker B

Last month we have been invested by Alai Ventures for United States.

16:24

Speaker A

Which one?

16:28

Speaker B

Alai Ventures.

16:28

Speaker A

Oh, great.

16:29

Speaker B

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was, to be honest, that was their first investment to Japan.

16:29

Speaker A

Oh, wow. How did you meet an American VC and convince them to invest in a company in Japan? Tell us the story.

16:35

Speaker B

Thank you very much. So we split the round into two pieces. C run and C the extension run. So sealand this, this company spinner from Kyoto University. So that's why we have been invested by Kyoto icap, it's sort of CBC committee from Kyoto University. And they have a bunch of network in EU or United States. So they nicely connecting me to online ventures. And. Yeah. And there.

16:43

Speaker A

Oh, so they. There was a group that was able to Put you in touch with them and that.

17:10

Speaker B

Yes.

17:15

Speaker A

Venture firm had shown interest already.

17:16

Speaker B

Yes.

17:18

Speaker A

Or they cold called them.

17:18

Speaker B

Oh yeah, they, they, they have like soft connection got through online ventures.

17:20

Speaker A

Ah.

17:24

Speaker B

And they kindly connected to me to the online ventures.

17:24

Speaker A

Are you a Japanese company or do you file as like an American company or both? For the venture capitalist in America to invest, usually they have to be a Delaware company or something.

17:27

Speaker B

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he based in Japan.

17:38

Speaker A

Based in Japan.

17:40

Speaker B

Based in Japan. There's no lunch in overseas.

17:41

Speaker A

So you don't have, you don't have a, a corporate entity in the United States. Yes. Or you do?

17:44

Speaker B

No.

17:49

Speaker A

No. Okay, so you have to be here. So was that, that wasn't a blocker for the venture firm. They figured out how to do it.

17:49

Speaker B

Oh, I didn't think so. It cannot be a super, super big deal. Yeah, I guess. And we also have an investment from the PC name Corn Nation. As you can see from the name of this PC. This is a top PC for quantum computer hardware from world War. So they are coming from France. That will show their first investment to Japan at the same time.

17:55

Speaker C

Got it.

18:16

Speaker A

And these, did the venture capitalists come visit you for the board meetings and they get to come to Japan a couple times a year?

18:16

Speaker B

No, no, no, no. It's like we talk online basis.

18:22

Speaker A

Oh, okay.

18:25

Speaker B

Online basis. But I've been.

18:25

Speaker A

See that's the opposite of me. When Jetro and Japan said we want to do founder university with you, I said oh, I get to come to Japan twice a year. I'll do it. That's why I'm doing it also to meet great founders. But I was coming anyway for skiing in January. So every time we see a revolution in how software is built and used, one company ends up owning the infrastructure that everyone else depends on. The next great platform is being built right now that company is DigitalOcean and they just launched their AI native cloud. This is not just another place to rent GPUs or a hyperscaler. Overwhelming you with features and services, but leaving you on your own to patch it all together. No, we're talking about a full stack plan platform that comes pre assembled and that sends you just one bill at the end of the month. Work Auto runs a trillion automated workloads on digital ocean with 67% lower inference cost, 79% lower latency and it's two times faster to production. If you want to understand what building on a true AI native platform looks like, go to dot co twist. That's dot co twist. Start building on the digital ocean AI native cloud today. And cut your AI workload cost by up to 50%. That's do co twist event in Niseko, for example. They go to Niseko.

18:26

Speaker B

Oh, that's beautiful.

19:45

Speaker A

I like to go cat skiing.

19:46

Speaker B

Okay.

19:48

Speaker A

You know the tractor that goes up the mountain?

19:48

Speaker B

Oh, yeah.

19:51

Speaker A

So there's an abandoned ski resort. I won't say the name anymore, because when I say the name on the podcast, they sell out all the seats.

19:52

Speaker B

Okay, got it.

19:58

Speaker A

And then people get disappointed. There's an abandoned ski resort.

19:59

Speaker B

Really?

20:03

Speaker A

Maybe 40. There's many. Used to be 1,000 ski resorts. Now there's maybe three or 400 active ones because there was many more children and a bigger population. And so it's come down a little bit. So a lot of those small resorts and people move to the city. So in those local resorts, some of them shut down.

20:04

Speaker B

Oh.

20:25

Speaker A

So an American fell in love with this resort outside of Naseko. It's a good story. And he asked them every year, can I have this resort?

20:25

Speaker B

Why don't you make businesses there?

20:34

Speaker A

I might need to. And he said it took him four years. Every year, he went to the city council, to the elders, and said, hey, I would like to do this. They said, oh, tell us your plan. They said, okay, yeah, maybe next season. And then he came back. I'd like to do this. I'd like to. And when I went to see the ski resort, half of the lifts were.

20:36

Speaker B

Oh, yeah.

20:57

Speaker A

Broken down. The cables were down. The ski lifts were down. And he cleaned it up, and he left one run. Perfect. And all the local people get to have a ski ticket for maybe $50 for the season if they live there. And they ski that one run. And then they make very good Katsu curry and nice ramen. And then they have two cats with eight seats in each. So 16 people come from around the world.

20:58

Speaker B

Oh.

21:27

Speaker A

And they drive you up the other eight runs.

21:28

Speaker B

Okay.

21:31

Speaker A

So one run for the locals. The other runs are broken down. They drive you up. It takes 15 minutes to go up.

21:32

Speaker B

Okay.

21:38

Speaker A

And then it takes 10 minutes to go down.

21:38

Speaker B

Okay.

21:40

Speaker A

And you do eight runs in one day.

21:40

Speaker B

Oh, wow.

21:42

Speaker A

$1,000 a day. That's $100 a run, maybe.

21:43

Speaker B

Okay, okay.

21:46

Speaker A

But it's worth it. Every run is fresh powder. Jpow Japanese pound. Jpow.

21:47

Speaker B

Is it so. Oh, no.

21:56

Speaker A

Beautiful.

21:58

Speaker B

Oh, right, right.

21:58

Speaker A

Do you ski or snowboard or. Neither.

21:59

Speaker B

No, no. I was born in Bangkok. I was raised up Malaysia. So maybe I'm not super super from you, which. Those kind of.

22:01

Speaker C

Yeah.

22:06

Speaker A

Anyway, it's A dream. And then unfortunately, years ago, I talked about it on the podcast, and then other people talked about it on social media. And just like Tokyo, all the great restaurants have too many Americans coming to take pictures. And if you really like the ramen at this place, somebody puts it on TikTok and then no locals get to go anymore. So now some of the locals are not putting them. They don't put in a English name

22:07

Speaker B

on the restaurant just for.

22:33

Speaker A

And they hide the address more. So only locals.

22:35

Speaker B

Okay, okay.

22:38

Speaker A

And some of them have signs now. Only local. But in Japan, in Niseko, there's now at Niseko, the actual resort is too many.

22:39

Speaker B

I see.

22:49

Speaker A

Too crowded.

22:49

Speaker B

Oh, yeah.

22:50

Speaker A

The other ones.

22:50

Speaker B

Oh, you know Japan more than me, I guess.

22:51

Speaker A

Yeah. So talk about this hiring of talent here and the work expectation and then building a company and building talent and culture in Kyoto, where it's very beautiful.

22:54

Speaker B

Thanks.

23:11

Speaker A

But maybe do people work hard and do they want to be in the office for 10, 12 hours a day grinding? How do you build a culture here in Japan and even in, you know, Kyoto?

23:11

Speaker B

Yeah. So that is really important question as a startup at this moment, the size of the company is close to 70. Who just. We just launched this company 15 months ago. Whoa. So 20, 25, April. And most of them are tech side. I mean, engineers, scientists, or we also hiring mathematicians who's like, you know, very capable.

23:24

Speaker A

So one to two hires per week?

23:51

Speaker B

Oh, yeah, sort of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. That's the biggest job for me, to be honest. Hiring the people.

23:53

Speaker A

Got it. And how many of the 70 are Japanese or recruited to come to Japan?

23:58

Speaker B

Yeah. So I think there's close to 55.0tech people, and I guess 20 to 30% of them is non Japanese.

24:03

Speaker A

Non Japanese.

24:14

Speaker B

Non Japanese. Oh. And interesting point is that there's a three divisions under the cto, Food management, of course, tech side. Two of them to head off three divisions, non Japanese.

24:15

Speaker A

Got it.

24:27

Speaker B

Yeah. So one of them is coming from Sydney.

24:28

Speaker A

From Sydney, yeah. Oh, beautiful. Yeah.

24:30

Speaker B

He's very talented. I really want to work with him. I've been to Sydney. I need good excuses to been to that beautiful city.

24:33

Speaker A

It's great.

24:40

Speaker B

Yeah, yeah.

24:41

Speaker A

City is one of my favorite cities.

24:42

Speaker B

It's so beautiful. So beautiful. And the other, another guy is coming from Turkey.

24:43

Speaker A

In Turkey.

24:47

Speaker B

Turkey, yeah.

24:47

Speaker A

So it's very international organization, I would say. What's the selling pitch to say leave Turkey, leave Sydney, beautiful city, and come live in Kyoto. Another beautiful city. But this a culture change for them.

24:48

Speaker B

Yeah, yeah.

25:01

Speaker A

We do Caesar Paper look, rock, paper, scissors.

25:01

Speaker B

Yes.

25:03

Speaker A

No, no.

25:04

Speaker B

Anyways, it's just joking but I think Kyoto haba very great advantages in terms of the beauty of the city. Yeah, very chill. And we had a spin out from Kyoto University and Kyoto University have a very profound research background history. We we use neutral atoms. Yeah but one of the professors coming from Kyoto University his name is Yoshiro Takashi, he studied neutral atoms for example Eban yb that's one of the species in neutral atoms by the way. He studies that species more than 30 years and he discovered say 60 to 70% of the fundamental scientific study of the Ethan. So yeah so that professor is very famous and at the same time an interesting point, a selling point about this company is that we try to integrate two entities research output. One is Kyoto University, one is coming from ims. IMS stands for Institutional Mercury Science in the IT prefecture. First name is Kenji Omori, he's the head of that institute. And two professor two top try to create independent startup similar startup but if you're thinking about the competitive landscape or oh why don't we make one startup these two extraordinary professors.

25:04

Speaker A

Researchers. Yes. Scientists.

26:37

Speaker B

Yes, exactly.

26:39

Speaker A

So now you've incorporated them into the startup there Advisors, board members.

26:40

Speaker B

Advisors. Advisors, yeah. So this is one of the great history behind this company and many people know that these two professors co work

26:44

Speaker A

together so they're rock stars and it draws talent.

26:55

Speaker B

Yeah yeah yeah. Very talented two professors. So we closely work with two entities Kyoto University and IMS and I would say this company spinner Kyoto University and ims. Yeah so this is not a good selling point since from D0 we have a large scale of research entities as a startup. That is not a good point.

26:58

Speaker A

And so is your intent to build the entire computer or be part of working with other companies building computers and empower them as a provider to them.

27:19

Speaker B

Very, very good. Very very good question. Very very good question. So I believe that our neutral atom quantum computer. Yeah Is something like car, automotive car and we try to become the quantum computer company something like Toyota. So if you're thinking about Toyota they don't create tire no they don't create engines. They they design everything, integrate everything into one and sell that car. Got it into the market see so we are the corner computer company tried to assemble the lasers, vacuum chambers, meters, whatever.

27:30

Speaker A

So there are many people building these components now.

28:14

Speaker B

Exactly.

28:16

Speaker A

Co work together where, where are they all based and are they also centered around universities?

28:17

Speaker B

You always asking a very very good question. So we use neutral tubes and most important device for this Quantum computer is laser ah very hyper eraser very not less noise lasers.

28:22

Speaker A

So high fidelity.

28:39

Speaker B

Exactly. I like that will leave much high fidelity lasers. And this is coming from Hamats Photonics in the Hamamatsu Japanese company and they also have an amazing subsidiary company in Copenhagen Hurricane in Denmark.

28:41

Speaker A

In Denmark.

28:56

Speaker B

In Denmark, Yeah.

28:56

Speaker A

All places.

28:57

Speaker B

Yeah. But it's like no wonder since Nielsbor one of the like an amazing scientists from Denmark and Denmark is very very strong capability in terms of the physics. And that company name is Inner KT Photonics. They creating amazing high power lasers and recently Yokemo our company and Hamas Photonics and Indicative Photonics did nice mou in between DMARC in Japan try to create special devices for neutral atom basis quantum computer. I mean this kind of supply chain is very crucial for industrialization.

28:58

Speaker A

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29:38

Speaker B

Thank you very much.

30:43

Speaker A

So many different people around the world are working together together to try to to to hit this vision.

30:44

Speaker B

Yeah.

30:51

Speaker A

Is something happened in the time you were starting this company and Quantum computing has been working towards this very ambitious goal which is large language models, artificial intelligence, GPUs have become very powerful. So how has the advances in AI impacted what you're building and how you're building it?

30:52

Speaker B

Yeah. Thank you very much. So so called we call it AI for quantum and vice versa. Quantum for AI.

31:18

Speaker A

Explain both.

31:26

Speaker B

Yeah, sure. So AI for quantum. This is very, very powerful. So for example, this is very, very interesting story behind quantum calculations. But if you use quantum computer, as I mentioned, error happens and we have to estimate what kind of error happened by using classical computer, a gpu for example. Right. Cpu. So they help us, I mean ask me, scoring computer to identify or estimate what kind of error to what extenders kind of happened and try to correct through classical computation. So and through this kind of activities, we definitely use, we already use a lot of AI LLM transformer for example to do content collection. So this is something very tangible example of the AI for content.

31:26

Speaker A

Got it.

32:17

Speaker B

Right.

32:17

Speaker A

And just doing that error correction.

32:18

Speaker B

Yeah, that's like a.

32:20

Speaker A

More like, you know, and it's so powerful now.

32:21

Speaker B

Very, very powerful because of the AI and opposite side. So quantum for AI. So at this moment there's no practical or tangible example about quantum for AI. Since the power of quantum computer is not enough.

32:23

Speaker A

Not enough yet.

32:43

Speaker B

Not enough yet. However, recently the researchers coming from MIT wrote beautiful papers about how quantum for AI happens. We believe the future is not super, super far away.

32:43

Speaker A

And so would it be used for inference or model training? Both. And then if it does work, let's say we go five years into the future, maybe even 10 years into the future, what impact could that have on either of those two practices? And obviously there'll be other jobs to be done and new modalities are being created. But using the current paradigm of the language model and the building of the language model or inference, the customer getting their query answered, what impact could quantum have on that?

32:58

Speaker B

Yeah. So for example, very, very interesting example is that after we do correcation of by using quantum computer result coming from them. For example, if you do fluid dynamics calculation by using quantum computer, that data or result is not normally coming from the classical computer, isn't it? This is only coming from quantum computers. Why don't we use this data to make AI even smarter? We can differentiate the model by doing so.

33:31

Speaker A

Got it. So the models become more powerful.

34:04

Speaker B

I guess so, yeah.

34:06

Speaker A

It's going to be very interesting.

34:07

Speaker B

Very interesting. I believe quantum for AI. Once this kind of happens, quantum computer company makes tons of money.

34:09

Speaker A

Yes. And it could be like the answer to many problems. Do these quantum computers, are they as power hungry or more power hungry than their equivalent GPU or CPU type computer? What's the energy consumption like?

34:16

Speaker B

Very less. Let's say very, very less.

34:30

Speaker A

Really?

34:33

Speaker B

Yes.

34:34

Speaker A

Interesting.

34:35

Speaker B

Yes. Recently one papers talking about we find it out. One paper is talking about the comparison in between classical computers and quantum computers as a function of the consumption energy as a function of the number of the qubits and they mentioned that the number of the qubit is close to 40 or 50 or something. Then we do a particular program solving the num. The energy that quantum computer use even less than classical computers. So in the context of less CO2, less energy, we definitely believe that quantum computer that contributing to the.

34:35

Speaker A

Are they always going to be very large data center computers or will we ever see the, you know, desktop revolution equivalent of quantum computing? I know it's a silly question maybe, but I'm just curious.

35:22

Speaker B

Yeah, exactly. I would say again, I cannot say that quantum computers take over all the position of the classical computers, just one part of it. But I believe quantum computer could be the very, very great accelerator to make classical computer even smarter.

35:36

Speaker A

So there would be a hybrid computer with both.

35:56

Speaker B

Exactly.

35:59

Speaker A

Like a hybrid Toyota Prius.

35:59

Speaker B

Yes, yes.

36:01

Speaker A

So some jobs go to the quantum processing unit and maybe some other parts of the job go to the GPU and cpu.

36:01

Speaker B

They share the loads.

36:11

Speaker C

Wow.

36:12

Speaker A

And they could share the memory. Yes.

36:13

Speaker B

So there's kind of primary research work happen already in Japan for example, in Tsukuba. And there's many way to do demonstration of hybrid system in between quantum necroscope.

36:14

Speaker A

Fascinating. Okay, final question. Everybody's a bit nervous about cryptography and that someday quantum starts up and all of our phones are hacked and everybody sees our bank account and you take all my bitcoin. When will you be taking all of my bitcoin?

36:28

Speaker B

Yeah, that is really big question. So recently one survey review that how quantum calculation researcher think about doan d Creek for a fee happen.

36:47

Speaker A

Yeah.

37:00

Speaker B

And they mentioned that in next five to 10 years we have to be very, very be careful about it. But if you think.

37:01

Speaker A

And it's true.

37:07

Speaker B

Yeah, I think it's true. I think it's true.

37:08

Speaker A

Sometimes technologists are a little bit hyperbolic. They get a little bit excited like we saw with AI So. But it's true.

37:10

Speaker B

Yeah, it's true. So we some research works already proving that if you reach to certain amount of the size of the qubit qpu we can solve RSA cryptography. But it won't be happening next two years. For example. Don't worry, it's time to sell your bitcoin.

37:19

Speaker A

Plenty of time.

37:40

Speaker B

Yeah, but the point is that maybe not only for bitcoin, but for example some top secret coming from Japan, United States.

37:40

Speaker A

Yes, they already military applications.

37:52

Speaker B

Absolutely. There's kind of dual use cases very crucial and for example some country already collected top secret which is already protected by RSA cryptography. But they already has that, isn't it?

37:54

Speaker A

So they have the data, they just haven't cracked it. Yeah.

38:09

Speaker B

And once they create quantum computer. So take now encrypted data, solve later.

38:12

Speaker A

Oh wow. So get the, get the hard drive now. Exactly. Crack it later.

38:19

Speaker B

Yes, yes, yes.

38:23

Speaker A

Put it on a shelf.

38:24

Speaker B

Exactly.

38:25

Speaker A

It's very dangerous. And so is there an international body or has the government gotten involved and created a regulatory body that's in any way monitoring your progress? And do you get a knock on the door that says hey, you know, we need to have a conversation?

38:25

Speaker B

Yeah, that's that, that, that is really, really important. Like topics that this kind of dual use or like, you know, corner computer based deep tech startup. That is really important topic. We talk with governmental people very carefully and for example, United States license announced that they tried to launch or they want to have very useful commercial computer by 2028.

38:43

Speaker A

It's aggressive.

39:10

Speaker B

Aggressive. Pretty aggressive. And so in order to nicely communicate this government of people, we are very happy to discourse our. Or we want to talk transparent tree with governmental people how to use it, how to protect the technologies. Yeah, that is really important.

39:11

Speaker A

It's a very important. The world is very dynamic.

39:29

Speaker B

Exactly.

39:32

Speaker A

It's a very dynamic world. It's constantly changing.

39:32

Speaker B

Yeah.

39:35

Speaker A

And as a technologist we can't take it for granted that everybody has good intent. There are some people in the world who have bad intent. And so we have to be thoughtful. We have to get there first.

39:36

Speaker B

Yeah, yeah.

39:47

Speaker A

Is China making progress on quantum? Do you see big progress from China?

39:49

Speaker B

They, they doing very, very well. So I think one of the top country is China. United States, of course, eu, Japan, I believe these two like area is pretty, pretty aggressive in town. Yeah.

39:54

Speaker A

And do they share their progress and papers? No, they just read ours.

40:11

Speaker B

Yeah. So they of course they post their scientific activity by paper, some of them, but I don't think they share everything.

40:16

Speaker A

Yeah, very close to the vest.

40:25

Speaker B

Exactly.

40:26

Speaker A

Yeah. It's a very interesting moment in time. Kazu, thank you so much for sharing with the audience. A big round of applause for Kazu.

40:27

Speaker B

Me too.

40:35

Speaker A

I don't know if there's any crypto and any quantum heads in the audience who have a question. Does anybody have a question?

40:39

Speaker B

Anything you do?

40:45

Speaker A

Okay, come and ask a question. We have one question. You don't have to have a question about quantum computers. I'm fascinated by it. And this is like such a treat for us to see around the corner of what you're building. This is like this conversation is literally like talking to OpenAI DeepMind 10 years ago.

40:46

Speaker B

Right.

41:05

Speaker A

Okay. Question.

41:06

Speaker C

Hey, that's a great presentation and a great interview. I'M Karthik. We're building Glib Zero Labs. What we're doing is we're building the cryptographic authorization layer for AI agents. And my question is probably two parts. One is right now because I've done a lot of work in Quantum for the last year and a half before starting my company and current cost of quantum is really high. Like if you look at SQBM from Toshiba, it costs like $90 an hour. IBM I think if you want to rent it, you have to pay like $3,000 an hour. So whatever you're building at Yakumo, what how is it going to move the needle? Like is it going to bring the cost of that down? Or how are you thinking about it from a business model perspective? Like do you want to sell quantum clouds like through a partnership with AWS or Microsoft?

41:07

Speaker A

Good question.

41:54

Speaker C

Bring it down.

41:54

Speaker B

Yeah, of course. So listen to one of my colleagues in Japan. He's not in Yakumo. Sorry, he's not in Yakumo. He's creating one of the type of quantum computer superconducting qubit. So he mentioned that one physical qubit costs close to 1 million USD. It's really expensive but we use a neutral atoms. And if you're thinking about the like, you know, the price of qubit, maybe It's. It's maybe 100 times cheaper. Yeah. Or 10, 1,000 times affordable. So we believe this methodology is pretty scalable in terms of the financial aspects. Yeah. And if you're thinking about our business model as a startup, there's couple way of thinking. However we thinking about selling our one full stack corner computers next five years. But this is not for commercial use case. It's only mainly for academia who try to use quantum computer as a research box. And after 2030 we believe that we can create very useful quantum computer so called FTQC for three quantum computers. And we try to sell this quantum computer to data center for example. Yeah. In that case we don't have to sell quantum computer one by one by. Yeah, maybe one by two.

41:55

Speaker C

You just sell racks.

43:10

Speaker B

Yeah, exactly as bulk. And next five years after 2035, for example it's time to think about how to use this corner compute as a data.

43:11

Speaker C

For example you can do quantum entropy service.

43:19

Speaker B

You can do just like scale quantum as a service.

43:21

Speaker A

Yeah.

43:24

Speaker B

For example. Or for example there is one great company have been like M by Meta, like you know scale AI. Yeah, yeah. They'll sell data for AI.

43:24

Speaker C

Yeah, that's quantum data and quantum enthropia

43:35

Speaker B

as a service Exactly. So we might expect those kind of things.

43:36

Speaker C

Got it. That's actually a part of stuff that I'm working on as well.

43:39

Speaker A

Okay.

43:42

Speaker B

Actually, why don't you catch us the

43:42

Speaker C

second part of the question. Do I have time or. Yeah, quick. Okay, so you mentioned that RSA is going to be broken. Right. But most of the world, including Visa, MasterCard, all these guys use AES256. Of course, like hack now, decrypt later is going to happen. But wouldn't it be useful if you just blow up the key bit from 2, 5, 6 from AES? If you make it AES 256 to like AES 2048 or 4096, you can buy time to let the hackers linger on the network and then use the same quantum computer to trace them out and figure out what keys they're using to enter your system. Right. What are your thoughts on that?

43:44

Speaker B

Yeah. So that's the reason why we believe that cryptography is just one of the applications. For example, I'm very, very. Akuma is very keen on to the other applications application. For example, like you know, quantum chemistry which going to create new market. Yeah. So that is something we are thinking about. Like cryptography is just one like, you know, very, very dangerous. But that's corner computer company. We're thinking about some other more.

44:17

Speaker C

Yeah. You could also end up building like virtual cells. Yeah. And cell models and revolutionize biology and everything makes sense.

44:43

Speaker A

All right, very exciting.

44:50

Speaker B

Thank you.

44:51

Speaker A

All right, let's thank Kazu for sharing us for an hour.

44:52

Speaker B

Thank you very much.

44:55

Speaker A

Oh my God. So great. Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate you taking the time.

44:57