Color, Culture, and the Future of Sustainable Beauty with Nour Tayara of AORA Makeup

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This is a very special episode because this is a launch day episode. And I'm so excited to be helping in the launch of this brand because this is where beauty pushes forward. We push innovation forward, we push all of the boundaries. And I'm so excited to host our guest today because he is really kind of paving a road, I think, for all of the brands in the space to kind of have a blueprint as we move forward into true sustainability. So without further ado, please welcome Nur Tayara, who's the co-founder and CEO of Aura Makeup. Welcome, Nur. I'm so honored to host you. Thank you so much. Hi everyone. I'm very honored to be on this podcast. I'm very honored to be with you. I'm a fan of what you do. I also feel like you've done this with so many experts in their field, so many people that are paving the way, whether it's with ingredients, whether it's with everything that's happened with CEW and with the Innovators Awards. So to be alongside everyone you've interviewed is something I truly cherish. Well, we're so happy to have you here. And I want to dive in because your background is really, really impressive, Nora. And I want our audience to really get to know your body of work because you're with L'Oreal for 13 years behind the Time 100 Innovation Award. I mean, this is huge stuff. And I want you to kind of tell your story. I don't want to miss anything. So can you kind of walk us down memory lane and tell us what got you into the beauty industry, your experience at L'Oreal and everything that followed? Okay, let's start from the beginning. I did not grow up thinking or knowing that I will work in beauty one day. I would say I was an overachieving brown young boy that thought that I can only do mathematics or be in medicine because that's what I guess society or my parents expected from me back in high school, in orientation. I didn't even know marketing was a job or a movie or an innovation. Really, really, I thought you had to become an engineer. So I became an engineer. So I studied in Montreal. I studied electrical engineering. And that was really where I thought I would end up being. And then I needed more money in school. So I started doing jobs, what you called back in the day, guerrilla marketing. So I'd be the guy in a movie theater in a bathrobe selling you an axe, the odorant or sun silk. What's your color for shampoo or ING, giving a dollar on the street to people to get them to think about saving a dollar with a bank. And suddenly I got really, really excited about marketing. I'm like, that's what I want to do. I want to do something super creative to bring either innovations or cool new ideas to people. And life took me quite randomly to Paris, where I started an MBA at a school in Paris. And the first class in that MBA was a marketing class where L'Oreal was invited to do Brandstorm, which is a big competition that L'Oreal does every year until now with students around the world. And back then it was with Maybelline. And my group won the competition that year in France for creating a perfume for Maybelline. And that was it. That was my ING. And suddenly I had won an internship with L'Oreal. So fast forward 13 years, I had spent my career in L'Oreal. And I started with L'Oreal on hair back then on innovation on the brand called Shumura Art of Hair, which was super cool. And it was immediately like same, lots of jumping into creating really cool products, different things. And I did really well my first year. And part of that became again, like the reward was, it was the first year that the old heads of HAVAS Media worldwide had created the new conference called One Young World. And One Young World was for leaders, young leaders, under 30 years old that want to change the world. So big companies were meant to send like top performing young employees. And you get to go and listen to Mohammed Yunus and Ariana Huffington and Kofi Anan and people changing the world. And young innovators from different countries also doing really, really, really weird, cool, disruptive innovations. And I remember after three days there, you're like crying, laughing, looking, I realized, oh my God, this is what I want to do. And I want to do sustainability. Because one, you quickly realize that the world needs us to do that. And number two, that if you're truly into innovation, that's where disruptive innovation is. And suddenly my thirst, my curiosity for innovation was quenched by realizing, oh my God, I'm being given this opportunity on a silver plate to go back to my company and propose ideas. So went back to L'Oreal and suddenly became a bit of a poster boy for doing sustainability. Because I was willing to push the envelope on doing the first bottle that was 100% recycled plastic. And we had never done that before. Or doing the first shampoos and conditioners that had natural origin ingredients or were biodegradable. And then same fast forward a career until about five years ago, where I worked on so many fun projects in a big, big, big company like L'Oreal, where honestly, the impact could be huge because you can do something on one brand. And then I'm sure you know that really well in those big groups, everything trickles. Once an innovation is done, then Garnier can take it, L'Oreal Paris can take it, Kiehl's can take it, Longcomb can take it. So I'm still a strong believer that impact can happen as an entrepreneur or as an entrepreneur in big companies. I agree. I think that's a really good point though. I want to kind of pause there because you made such an excellent point just now. I mean, I think we forget that. You know what I mean? That there is this like pyramid, you know, and there's this trickle down of true science and innovation. And I when I just doing this podcast for almost six years, there have been so many times where I've talked to people such as yourself, you know, that are true innovators and then your work, I see it, you know, like I'll see it down the road. And I'm like, I remember where that came from, you know, like, and it's really cool to watch that. And I think as consumers, we forget that the beauty industry isn't just an industry about like vanity or anything, you know, it's an industry that has like it interfaces with so many disciplines, you know, and we have the potential to create like magic, literally magic and change the world, you know, so it's a beautiful thing, what you said, I agree. Magic and we're all choosing to be in this industry. And the consumers are choosing to buy our products. I think at the end of the day, this is also for me, that's what I remind myself every day of. And that's why my biggest motto when it comes to sustainability is that we need to create something that is flavorful. We need to create something that is sexy, desirable to people because no one needs most of what we are offering. At the end of the day, most of us have gone on a camping trip or hiking or traveled and forgot a toilet rebag and life continues, life goes on. So what we are offering, I think is still our responsibility to offer an object that is beautiful, a performance that is spectacular, a brand story that is really, really great and compelling, because at the end of the day, no one needs a lot of what we are offering. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it makes sense. But at the same time, I think that's the beauty of it, right? Because we don't need it, but we learn from what we, because that's the interesting part about, I think, this entire industry is that we are choosing to participate as consumers in it. And so we're choosing, we're voting with our dollars, we're voting for every single bit and piece of it. And so when I look at sustainability, I really want to actually ask you this question because it's been on my mind for many years, where it's like, where do you think we were stuck for so long with sustainability? Or where do you think we're still stuck when it comes to bringing the true innovation forward? Do you think it's a cost problem or brands just don't want to give up the super nice aesthetic? What do you think it is? Okay, I think it's multiple things. I believe we've gotten an unlock on Aura Mexico on this topic is understanding a couple of things. I think one, the industry is stuck with fear. There is something where we need to have a lot of empathy for everyone that's working in beauty is because sustainability could be scary sometimes. One, because there's still lacking a lot of education out there. So a lot of the people who work in our beauty industry are sometimes afraid of messing up, of saying the wrong thing, of their legal team being upset because are you writing PCR or recycled components without the cap? There's been so many rules and regulations sometimes that people choose to do the most vague claim or sometimes to avoid something because they're afraid of messing up. So I think number one is we need to all like chill a bit about it and realize that the best kind of environment environmentalist is an imperfect one and that we can really, if we embrace a bit of imperfection, we can move, we can move our world in a great direction without waiting for the perfect, perfect, perfect claim. I think that's number one. Number two, the biggest movers in the industry are still big, big, big, big, big, big box brands. There's still massive brands in the industry and those brands still have their cash cows. You still have L'Oreal Paris with their number one Heronic Acid or Maybelline with their number one mascara and you're still going through those big quality and quantity tests with Nielsen where it seems like a little to us but for a lot of big companies, if a consumer will walk down an island not recognize their mascara, that's like a half a billion dollar loss. So the stakes are super high and we're still at the point where no one is willing to take that financial risk of switching something that is so big and those little incremental innovations might actually be very disruptive in the P&L of a big, big, big company. And I think number three is there's a lot of misconceptions still about sustainability. One that is it is not desirable that it will never look exciting and sexy and cool and fun. Number two, that it's expensive, that it's going to cost you more to do something sustainable. And number three is that it is boring as a topic and actually very technical and that's something that the CSO team is going to take care of on the side. And I think once we get over those three big misconceptions is really where the magic can start. I agree with you and I think it makes sense to me as well, you know, just hearing you say it out loud. I think for a long time, I'm not going to lie nor I thought sustainability became a trend for so long, you know, and I felt like there were people that were shopping products that almost looked like they were in like paper packaging, you know, to be the cool kid on the block. You know what I mean? Like I'm cool, look at my paper, you know, whatever bottle, like, and it was almost like, I feel like we were pushing this, the whole thing backwards when we did that, you know, because it created like a silo and the sustainability consumer side. So I mean, that's why I asked you that question is like, what is holding us back? Because at this point, it's like, there are solutions, you know, and there are ways that we can get around it. And I just keep seeing huge, huge companies that I mean, it makes sense what you said where it's like, you can't change the look, you're not going to recognize it when you walk down the aisle. That makes more sense to me. And I've just never heard someone say that out loud, you know, so very cool. But I want to talk about it, or because it's an amazing brand, I want to learn about your brand vision. Like, where did you first conceptualize the brand? Like, did you know this while you were at L'Oreal? Or when did this come to life for you? Definitely started at L'Oreal. It started at L'Oreal for a couple of reasons is because one, I got to really understand the waste problem of the beauty industry when I was at L'Oreal. It is the biggest beauty conglomerate in the world. So you get to understand the scale and the volume of things. And I learned very quickly that almost absolutely everything we create in makeup is designed, engineered, destined to become trash from inception. From the moment it's on a PowerPoint presentation in an office. So once you see the level of waste and trash that is created, and you know that, hey, we can maybe engineer this and design it differently, it gave me quite a passion for it. Number two is I was tasked actually, when I was at L'Oreal, one of my jobs in my last two years at L'Oreal was I was taken away from brands, I was given a budget and office. And I was tasked by the CEO of L'Oreal USA at the time to create a clean and sustainable makeup brand, which I did. So I started creating for a while. And it wasn't 100% plastic free, the technology wasn't available back then. Or at least it wasn't available when you're 10 middlemen away from every manufacturer because you're in a big, big company. And we got far with that brand. And in the end, it had to stop. It was canceled. And it was my biggest, like, dagger to the heart, honestly, because it was canceled for different reasons. One, because L'Oreal isn't great at creating brands, we buy brands, which is true, fair, that we can't do plastic free or talk that bad about plastic, because all of the other brands is plastic. Unfortunately, true, fair, but also like, you're gonna have to start somewhere one day, because we're gonna all have to face the plastic problem one day or another. And number three, then I was told that brands like this that are very activist, need an angry founder and at L'Oreal, we cannot have angry leader. And this is where honestly, about two months after that, I quit. And I left to not necessarily create my brand immediately. I think at the point it was COVID, it was the great resignation period. I was also rethinking, what do I want to do with my life? And I hung out for a long time at a beach in Mexico that I've been going to for the past 20 years. It was my happy place. And that's where I met my co founder. And he asked me what I want to do. And I said, I want to create a plastic free brand. And he's like, well, I'm also working on creating a beauty brand. And we got together and started our with all of our frustrations, really, putting them into one place. It was one, why does the world have so many brands that end with the word Paris? Or like, think about it, I'm like, Chanel, Paris, Hermes, Paris, Lancome, Paris, Dior Paris, and why can't we have something with the word Mexico behind it? Or with other countries? Or with the global south, a bit more represented? And it's not just about representation, by the way. I think it is not just for for a way of affirmative action, or because we need to balance out the top 10 of brands or what's on the shelf. It's also because I believe in curiosity and innovation and creativity and inspiration. Why are brands still doing Andy Warhol collections? He's dead. And there are thousands of alive artists around the world that are doing really cool things and that we could be supporting. And we could be getting inspired from so many other point of views and beautiful things. So that's where for us, it was important to like, frustration number one, it's time for something new from somewhere else and not from the same places and tell new stories. And the second one was about clean beauty, because whether we like the word clean or not, because it says so many things and nothing at the same time. But when it comes to beauty, that is, let's say respectful, that is educational, that is actually checking, are we using the right ingredients for the right things? Are we checking our supply chain? Are we really looking what's in the bottle and what are we doing to make sure we are delivering the right actives and the right products? That for me is what clean beauty is right now. It is pretty boring. Unfortunately, and to this point, it is very much like my skin but better, 10 shades of beige. I'm a 38 year old woman that has children and realized I should take better care of the planet. And it's like, why? Why can't you be someone that is raving all night and want clean beauty? Why do you have to choose between clean or good formula and glitter or silver or a bold color? Why can't you have it all? I think the days of to your point, all of clean and sustainable beauty being packaged into yoga going class with let's go pick up strawberries in the fields and that's the commercial you're going to get is I think now a bit absurd. Clean beauty is for everyone, just like electric cars for everyone, just like you could choose to eat a vegan impossible burger because you're going to digest better not because you are 100% against all things like you're not trying to fit into a box hole. And that's I love that you're saying this because and I want to bring this culture thing up. Okay, because I mean, I love this. I mean, I'm Indian. So being Indian myself, you know, Latin culture, South Asian culture, we have colors everywhere. We go on colors, we love colors. I mean, even now, when my mother, you know, she's approaching 70 when she dresses up for any function or party or whatever, she's wearing beautiful colors. That's just part of us, you know, and I feel like for so long, the Westernization of beauty has forced multiple cultures into this muted look. And it's never understood that I'm like, your vitality and your vibrance, it doesn't need to be muted after a certain age. And I don't know why here we do that, but we don't do it in other parts of the world, right? Like we don't do that in like, in Mexico, in India, and even in like anywhere I've seen, like when you travel the world, you realize like the world is colorful. And so colorful, the world is so colorful. And suddenly we have gotten everything. And that's what happens as well in the millennial era in like millennial pink and all of that. And it's just suddenly you look around and all beauty packaging was the same white with the same kind of logo. And suddenly it was the clean girl aesthetic. And which is problematic in itself, by the way, because girl versus what? And I think it has it carried a certain judgment on maximalism, a certain judgment on expression, a certain judgment on a lot of these, it became a cookie cutter world in everything really around us. But that world is changing right now. I think that was super interesting. Like our the second frustration with clean beauty is because we knew maximalism was about to come back. And it's coming back. If we look around us right now, it's coming back with force because that's the cyclicality of the world. Because look around you, our world is in a horrible place right now. We are in a war. I was going to say on the brink of a war, no, we are in the war now. World War three about to happen. I think this is what it looks like. It's what we're living in. And there's a climate catastrophe is happening. And there's risks, sorry for to be a bit alarmist. But we are in a world that is always at a risk of a recession and always at a risk of another storm today. And when that happens, and history has taught us that, is that after World War one came the roaring 20s. And after World War two came the fun, fun, fun 50s. And after Vietnam came the 80s and disco and at Y2K, when we all thought our computers are going to collapse one night while we sleep, and it's going to be the end of the world came the amazing expressionism that happened with clothes and with boy bands and girl bands and all of that. And that is the world we're living in right now. Because if we all think that we can take everything that is happening without having an outlet, and that outlet being super fun eyeshadows or dressing up in sequence is the comeback of Paco Rabanne and of Carvin and of all of these super fun brands, we need that as human beings, we need to express ourselves and color and shiny and being able to take ourselves through the imaginary, the beauty that is beauty and fashion and film to take us into different imaginaries. I think that's a blessing that is great for all of us to take. And this is the moment we are living in right now. I couldn't agree with you more. I think it's profound what you said. And I really, really, I mean, I resonate so much with that. I know so many people do and it's not even just about like when I think of beauty anymore, I don't even think about products. Like I'll be honest with you. I think about a feeling at this point. And you know, it's crazy. I was watching Mad Men again, and I started the series again, like a week ago. And it really kind of like, I love that show because it always like makes me think of like advertising and marketing and all of this stuff. But more importantly, it makes it just made me realize like we really are always on a hamster wheel. You know, we're always on a hamster wheel somebody else is putting in front of us. And as consumers, as much as we pretend to be like, well, now we're questioning more and now we're doing this, we always find ourselves on someone else's hamster wheel. And so it's like, at some point, like I agree with everything you said, it's almost like you're being forced into the present moment right now because of everything that's going on because there is no other place to find refuge mentally. You know, and I know a lot of people resonate with that. And so when you find that refuge and you're now, what are you surrounding yourself with? Are you going to surround yourself with the muted colors and the camel print? And you know, like, what is it that you want to look at when you're in your present? And that's, I think we don't stop and, you know, even consider that like we're still like, well, what box am I checking off? You know what I mean? If I look like this, what celebrity will notice me online and like my social media posts because they resonate with my social, I mean, we just can't and that's why I feel like a brand like yours is so important to remind us of that. You know, and I really would love for you to speak about when you were making your decisions about like color palettes and like the choices of the products, what were some of the things that you kept in mind? I knew culture was a big part of it, but like walk us through that. For me, I wanted to before anything stand out in color. Like, I mean, I love color. So it's just like at all moments, you're going to see me wearing ridiculous amounts. I love your sweater, by the way. It's beautiful. Color makes me happy. And I think color makes people happy in general. And it is important for us to one, when it came to our secondary packaging, to show really fun combination of color that one can have a deep root in Mexican culture and two, to be colors that are also known to signal certain things to people. So for example, our palette is blue and pink, and then there's a gold inside. That's what the actual packaging is gold. That pink is called the Rosa Mexicano, but it's also by the way very similar to a Barbie pink. So you're getting, you're getting two worlds in one. The blue is a royal blue. You can call it a Frida blue. You can call it an Eve Klein's blue. And the gold is not just any gold. The gold is the same gold as a 10 peso coin fresh from the bank. That is the gold that we've made because it's the most Mexican gold. There's no gold that's more Mexican than the most used coin in all of Mexico. And when you put the three of them together, they make a pink, blue and gold. That is one of the most famous exhibitions by Eve Klein in Berlin about 35 years ago. That is really about the beautiful combinations of these three colors together. Our Acaricea Maysolid Lip Serum comes in a pink and orange packaging. And that pink and orange packaging, I mean, pink and orange is a beautiful combination to start with. It's a beautiful nation I love. But it's also the combination of the Mexico Olympics of 1968, which was probably one of the best designed Olympics possible. And it's what they, they painted the whole stadium in circles of this pink and orange. So it's also very rooted in history. No one needs to know that by the way, but I think it's just like it helps. I think they do need to know that though, because I mean, here's the thing. And this is what drew me into the brand. I'll be very honest with you. I love that you're bringing culture forward, because I think that's how people learn. You know, like when you're looking at a product and you're holding it, you're using it every day, you're, that's learning. And we don't learn anymore for some reason. Our culture has completely deviated from this idea of like, we need to understand other people's actual cultures. You know, we need to understand the art, we need to understand the architecture, the beautiful things that manifested in that part of the world that we can learn from. You know, so I, I would say that's amazing, you know, and I think you should put that everywhere, you know, put the history everywhere. We are, we are, we are, we put it at the end of the day, I think the emotion that someone gets when they see a product is still always what is, what is the most important for me. But whenever we have the opportunity to tell our stories, we take them, we welcome them. When it came to choosing the colors inside of the products, it was also the same. It was a mix of figuring out with makeup artists, what are colors that people will use, what are colors that can complement the biggest amount of skin tones possible, what are colors that will also stand out and shock a bit. Our palette has, our palette is very colorful. And we, we keep getting told like, Oh my God, there's so many colors and why. And I think it's a great conversation starter. And it's, yes, it's an uphill battle, but a lot of people feel like color is not something you should wear in the day. Color is not something you should wear outside of a party that this color is not going to go well with me just because we've been so used to this kind of education on TV shows and online that says, Oh, if your skin tone is this, you can use green or if you're, why? No, like I come from a culture and you come from a culture and many of us wear colors good for everything. You look at the dinner table, it has 19 colors and they look great together. Look at a garden, it's full of so many flowers and they look great together. Look at the houses on the streets. Yeah, maybe because it's a, it's not the most developed country in the world. So everything is not gray and white buildings next to each other, but it's a green building next to a yellow building next to a purple building and it looks spectacular. And you know what? Those are the postcards that people want to see. So we also come from the belief that an abundance of color does look good. I think color doesn't ask permission to go well together. We have the society created a thing where we have almost pushed people's insecurities to the point where they have to think 10 times before getting dressed in the morning, will this look good with this? Like if you love what you're looking like, go for it and you might actually make someone on the street stop and tell you, you look fantastic and with a smile on their face. Well, ease up too, right? It's like, I don't know how to do it. I'm like, if someone could see me or I mean, what's wrong with them? It's like, it's like a visceral feeling. Like when I see somebody who's just dressed the way they want to dress, they are wearing the makeup they want to wear, I feel a sigh of relief go through me. And I'm just like, that's the most magnificent feeling as a human being because you're just like, you know, like, okay, be yourself, be okay. No one's judging you. And I think that's the beauty of it. I mean, you brought up like, you know, in that part of the world, like in different parts of the world, you see color everywhere. And I just sometimes it makes you wonder like, what led us to a place where we went from like, you know, look at ancient civilizations, right? They used to use color to signal life. Like green was vitality. Blue represented the ocean and like endless possibility and depth and you know, so many things. Purple was regality, you know, it was so many colors had much more to them than just this is what I feel like, you know, wearing or not wearing. I mean, it just and even in art, when you look at like true older, you know, older art, you see like colors are representation of much more, it's emotions, it's, it's like feelings, it's places, it's experiences. And I don't know when we went from that to like, well, now it's like optional. I don't have to have, I mean, yes, you do. I even inside of the human body, I interviewed, I interviewed a wonderful person a long time ago. And he told me, you know, when you look at the human body and you look inside of the human body, the colors you will find are actually the colors that compliment your, your look the best, you know, in makeup. And it never, that will never leave me because it really just, it makes you realize like that's intrinsically built into who we are. And we can't run away from it. No matter how hard we try, we can't run away from this. So pushing it is actually against our nature. And you know, I would love for you to speak on this culture that I'm seeing this more of now, like on TikTok, for example, there's so many Gen Z creators now that are pushing back. And they're saying, I'm sick of the clean girl aesthetic, I want to wear makeup, stop shaming me. You know, I would love to get your thoughts on that whole movement. I mean, I'm very thankful for that movement. Because we have really seen a shift on the brand as well. We have seen a shift on how many people are gravitating towards our eyeshadow palette, towards our eyeliners that are very colorful since that started. And it started really in November, December. I think it was a bit aggressive at the start, I have to say, because a lot of people started using the expression, we put clean girl into a coma. Like that was really what was, which was a bit like too much. I think it's more, we on the brand started saying, like, we're holding the clean girl's hand and taking her towards color and things that are a bit more welcoming into the world of color. I think it's an expected outcome, what is going on. Because I think we were in a repressive beauty culture, because there is a duality and a duplicity that was starting to happen, which is the message of the beauty industry is be who you are, you're welcome, whoever you are. And it was so much of, I mean, that's the campaigns of Alta and Sephora and Target and like every big beauty retailer is almost like come as you are. But then a lot of brands were telling you, this is exactly how you should do your makeup and look at how everyone on our field looks the same in the end. And it was, this is the blush you should use. And this is the contour you should use. And this is the three shades of eyeshadow you should use. And it's everyone should fit the same way. And that was a pressure cooker, honestly, because you get to a point where in an attention world online, where the algorithm wants to also showcase different, and it's content at the end of the day. And we are in a content economy. And I think a lot of people realize that my content should stand out. And you have many ways to do it. You can keep trying to do it, do crazy hooks and acrobatics so that people will stay beyond your first five seconds of your video, or maybe we should go back to expressing ourselves in a creative and inspiring, beautiful way. And suddenly a lot of things happen at the same time. You've also had chapel, Ronan, and you've had, I mean, you have a lot of artists that are coming back as well. You have the fashion world that's coming, you have this sick click thing. And I think it's a perfect storm for expression color to come back. I think we're going to have a great years, years toward that. And hopefully the same is going to happen with sustainability. Yeah, no, I think they can. I mean, this is very, very exciting for me, because I think, you know, also from just the color, one more thing about the color, it just made me think about how inclusivity is such a big conversation for us now. And I'm so happy that we're here, because when I think about like the old days of like YouTube, you know, influencers and like, how hard they were pushing for this, like Jackie Aina always comes to my mind immediately, you know, she's somebody I watched like, you know, religiously. And I mean, people like her have pushed for this for so long on like the consumer side. And now we're finally coming to a place where inclusivity is built into a lot. We're seeing better shade ranges, you know, in foundation, in, you know, complexion products. But then no one talks about inclusivity as it pertains to color, you know, like in terms of the, like your palette is to me, inclusivity in a nutshell. You're giving people of all shade ranges an option to go as bold as you want, as light as you want, do whatever you want. And if you don't, I mean, you had said this earlier, right? You were like, it's when people open it, it is a little like, you're so many colors, but that's the point. You have so many colors because people figure it out, you know? It's an invitation. It's an invitation to play. It's, I'm so happy you're saying this, because it's also inclusivity and diversity in a different point of view. I saw an article yesterday, how it's officially purple eyeshadow season, because like a bunch of people at the Oscars did that, but I'm like, why? Really? Like is now everyone's supposed to stop everything and just do purple eyeshadow, just like butter yellow, what a thing? And I think it's just, we all need to hold hands. And I think say no to this herd mentality, where every couple of weeks, someone is going to tell us walk in that direction and walk in that direction and post in that direction, just so that the algorithm picks it up. No, I think let's all, there's another way for the algorithm to pick you up, do something very original. Right, exactly. And like let that space exist. You know, that's another thing is like, you've created a brand where it's like, you're creating a space, you know? And that's how I see it. Or I was like, it's a space that you're creating and it's allowing for people to experience something, but at the same time, it's creative. And it lets you also think like, well, if I were to do something, right, following this, if I were to create a brand, I don't have to feel like there's a sustainability bubble, I can't pop anymore. You know, that's the real thing. And I feel like we don't acknowledge that enough in terms of like, I mean, in science, this happens a lot, right? Where like, a scientist will come up with an innovation or a technology or whatever. And we say, okay, give them the null prize because they've paved the way now for us to understand, you know, it's like a step-by-step process. It's like unfolding all the leaflets are coming apart. But in beauty, we never talk about this. And I had the same conversation, like, I mean, you know, I've had this conversation about like dupes, for example, you know, like when people dupes something, that's opening a gateway, you know, like, that's how I look at dupes. It's like you opened a gateway and now look at all the other people doing it. I mean, what are your thoughts on like, just how beauty needs to be in terms of the speed at which we innovate, you know, the speed at which we allow for these things to roll out and be present and blow up, you know, in our space? On dupes, I wish more people would dupes the right innovations that I think take our world in the right place. Like for me right now, I'm in a stage of please dupes us, dupes a plastic technology, let's go, like I'll help you. I think, look, the market is going in a very speedy way. I think that is super exciting right now. I'm seeing, for example, us that are 100% plastic free and 100% recyclable. I am already the aluminum technologies that exist in the world out there. We've already gone like three generations up in maybe three years, where we're able to get so close to what you're able to achieve with plastic. It is fantastic, but when you see that, so the speed of adoption is becoming super fast. I think though, the problem is that it's not fast enough yet, for example, for sustainable technologies for someone to get to jump on the train. The market is so fast and needs you to bring so many innovations so fast, unfortunately, that it's almost like for a lot of other brands, I feel we're not giving them enough time to stop and think can be okay, are we doing the right thing? Can we do something to reduce our footprint? Because it's becoming ridiculous, the amount of plastic we're putting out there. But it almost feels like a train that is going so fast that it never slows down enough for you to get down to take the next one. And the best analogy I can give you is that the train is so fast, or the bus is so fast, or you're in a car that doesn't have a good brake system, and you kind of know that there's a better car next to it, or the next train will be less crowded, or whatever it is, but you cannot get off. And I wish everyone can get that little breathing room so that we can have a conversation as an industry about how bad the direction is we are going, because honestly, it is, I love, by the way, that we haven't talked about sustainability so far. For one reason, that's exactly our mission on the brand. I don't want you to think of us as sustainability first. Yeah, it's supposed to be fun. It's supposed to be cool. I often say that plastic could never, because we're here to create a better experience. No one is buying organic strawberries because they're trying to save the soil. People are buying organic strawberries because they're tiny, and they're red, and they're juicy, and they're flavorful, and they're sugary. No one was buying electric cars when they looked really bad until Tesla and Rivian and all of these cars came. No one was buying a vegan burger when it was a dry lentil burger until impossible and beyond make it super exciting. And then McDonald and Burger King put advertising money to make it super desirable for everyone to realize, okay, wow, I can have impossible ground meat in my fridge, and you actually digest better, and it tastes the same, and often better. So I love that we were able to just have an insightful, creative, inspired conversation without talking about the fact that this brand at the same time offers products that are 100% recyclable. They will disappear into the stream of circularity that is aluminum and tin. And it's what excites me the most about what we are doing honestly. Almost 95% of everything in makeup is not recyclable. It's not recyclable. You'll take your mascara, your pencils, and the length brands go to to complicate a product to make it so many multi materials that you cannot separate. And we created something that I think is extremely desirable, very design led. For me, it's the equivalent of drinking a nice cup of wine in a glass cup and eating a nice meal on a personal plate, another plastic plate. I think how do we elevate that experience? I think a lot of what we do doesn't come out of a rejection of the industry or of beauty on the contrary. It comes actually, and I think this is where sustainability failed a lot of times because yes, the most sustainable choice is always going to be not to consume, but we're not playing in that field. We are playing in a field of consumption. I also believe that brands and corporations will save the world and not government. So I think it's time we all look around us and think that it's my dollars that will affect things and that some of the coolest things that are happening today are happening because business people are choosing to put the money in the right places and open the right conversations. And we really chose, I think, to put a product that is going to disrupt in a very non incremental way. It wasn't about reducing plastic. It's about showing you can do something 100% without plastic and still manage to have a full conversation and manage to get people to come into your brand, not because of that. It will never be just about that. We are going to keep receiving McKinsey studies that are going to say that 80% of Gen Z prefer a sustainable product, but no they don't. Once we're in front of a shell if they're not choosing a more sustainable product, everyone is going to choose a better product. The more desirable product, a more flavorful product. And that is what we need to thrive for. And the good news is that plastic is a very mediocre material. So we can do better. We can do better. Yeah, it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel luxury at all. I don't ever pick up a plastic compact and think, oh, I feel so luxurious. I agree with you. And I wanted to ask you this question actually. And there's a reason I didn't focus on the sustainability because to me, when I look at your products and I use them, I didn't feel like I needed to focus on that. It's again, that same comment I made to you where sustainability became that cool kid on the block. Right. And everybody was like, look at how sustainable I am. It was like, no, dude. The idea is, do you like what you're using? And do you like this product? And when I first experienced your product, I was like, this is beautiful. I love this makeup brand. This is beautiful makeup. I didn't think like, I'm so glad that this is in XYZ material. Like, I am, don't get me wrong. I'm very happy that you've solved this problem. But I love that you've taken that spotlight off of that very generic sustainability conversation and shifted it to, this is the baseline. This is the baseline. You have to do this at this point. And if you choose not to do this at this point, then you're just being, in my opinion, ignorant. And that's my best. So I think that's one of my biggest questions. And coming back to that, what in your mind are the most, I mean, right now, if you're looking at the industry, what is the most accessible material that people can use, even if they're a very small brand, that is going to really push them down this road of true sustainability? I would say for me, the easiest answer is to say aluminum. Okay. Yeah. Aluminum, because it is a very widespread material. Aluminum is almost 80% of the aluminum that is in circulation in today's world is over 80 years old as well. That means it has been in circulation. Think about it. Aluminum, I know a lot of people are going to say, maybe there isn't enough aluminum there is. If liquid death can become what it became with aluminum, we can also as an industry move. Aluminum is every can of beer you see is every soda, seltzer, whatever you want to call it is every Coca Cola can. Tin is very similar and it's every soup can and every garbanzo bean can. Look at your supermarkets. Half of a supermarket is aluminum or tin. As an industry of beauty, we have chosen not to gravitate towards these ingredients. One, they can be more expensive sometimes, but two, they can also not be always the easiest to create with. But at the same time, they are noble, valuable materials that keep going and giving. Every time you recycle aluminum, it keeps its values. It's going to be as shiny, as strong as its true recycling. The re in recycling means really re. When you say reuse, you reuse a t-shirt, you reuse it as a t-shirt. It's not the case with plastic. Plastic is a degrading material. That means that there is no recycling really in plastic. A bottle can rarely become another bottle. It has to be transparent, PCR in the right facility. Even then, it's going to lose a bit of its rigidity. You're going to go from something very rigid to something a bit softer. But usually, a bottle will become a bag that will then become a carpet that will become simply microplastic. I think aluminum probably would be the material that, I mean, I'm fascinated with that material. I love what is given us really. I love the fact that it is something that is widespread and understood. Because for me, a big challenge we have in the beauty industry is when we keep saying, yeah, but consumers don't know. We keep putting the responsibility and the blame on consumers. It almost feels like, oh, you're not recycling. We've got it to the point where consumers are like, how can I recycle better? How can I cut this product into four pieces, separate it, wash it, dry it, then drive somewhere to bring it back out to, I don't know what service. But since when did we forget about the great topic that now is becoming legal, which is the manufacturer responsibility of things. It is up to brands. It's up to design to do something that becomes almost, do you ever think about how to recycle your beer bottle? It just goes or your can of soup or beans or your big, big bottle of transparent plastic because you kind of know where these things go. So what we've decided on the brand to do is why don't we go down that beaten path? That is the fact that everyone that this is a material, our lip gloss, you just do something called nesting. Take it, put it inside of the whole of a Coca-Cola bottle and push it together. That's aluminum and aluminum. It will go through recycling. And our palette is thin. The palette is 100% thin. It used to be a can of soup and will be again. Even that mirror in it is not glass. It's thin with a special coating that makes it feel exactly like a mirror and it will melt again next to a can of Campbell soup and can become a can of soup or hopefully another palette or a product from someone else in the industry one day. But the idea is to remove the thought process we don't need to. We all have so much to think about every day, adding to the consumer a thought of here's a five-page manual about how this product is going to be recycled when actually it never really will. It's swish cycling, it's greenwashing. It's all of these things put is dream cycling as well sometimes put together. But at the end of the day, the easiest solution right now is to start switching into materials that are mono material in general. I think that already is a good first step for the industry. But also to switch to materials that have proven to us through years and years and years that they're a valuable material to invest in. I love that. I love that. And I thank you for reminding us of that because I think we I know like I definitely got lost in that mess of thinking, oh, it's too difficult. It's too difficult to recycle beauty products and make this an everyday thing. And I am guilty of that as a person. I fell into that trap and I know a lot of us do because we kind of like and I watched this happen, right? Because it's like we fell into this whole thinking of like, well, we tried, it's all happening, just buy the you know, just go buy the plastic mascara. And it's like, I feel like this entire brand that you've created is such a beautiful way to remind people that like, no guys like it's very, very doable. And it's not it doesn't need to be like you said, another thing on your list, another thing to think about and to like, you know, stress over because I don't know, I think I don't think in the heart of hearts, people don't want to recycle, right? Like nobody I don't know anybody that's like saying yes, plastic, you know. We're good people. I think human nature is good to start. I think this has to it's a topic that is so important and it's so beyond beauty and recycling. I think overall, people want to help, people want to do the right thing. I think people want to recycle. No one wants to just throw something away. We get to a point where we either feel like we have no choice, or we either feel like we've tried and it didn't work. It's like voting. And it's like you get people to a point where they feel like, well, I'm going to give up. Like I just read, I just read a study that says because also the world is full of negative studies. Everyone is just pushing out there like the same thing, like beauty creates 120 billion amount of products and almost everything is not recyclable or recycled. So people are like, so what am I going to change versus showing that there are a lot of possibilities happening that there are a lot of technologies. We're one of many companies and technologies that are trying to put something very positive out there to show that there are solutions and we want other companies to join us because to your point, no one wakes up in the morning and say, today I want to create a big pile of trash. Really, they don't. People are, they want to try to do something good. But then they also want to spend their money in a way that gives them pleasure. So I think it's our responsibility as well to figure out how do we give them both? How do we give them the most innocent to the planet and the least harmful, pleasurable beauty product we can? I love it. Well, I'm a huge fan of what you've created. And for all of our listeners, there's a very special discount code that you're very gracious to offer to us. So I'm going to be linking that in our show notes. Make sure you guys scroll down and check that out. But really hats off to you, you know, in order for doing this. I mean, I can't, I just can't applaud you enough for it. I think it's something that I've been waiting for. I know as a consumer and also as just a person, like it's wonderful to see this happening. So thank you for bringing this to the beauty industry. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. We're, we're, I think also this episode is going to come out on a very special moment. We are at the beginning of Earth Month, which the name of our brand, our means now. And for us, all of our sustainability objectives have been achieved now. We're reducing by 100% plastic now. It's not by 2030. It's not by 2040. Everything is now. It's also now because in a world of Paris, London and New York, now it's time for Mexico. And as we speak, actually on the seventh, we are launching at Credo. So we're super happy because we're going to have our first national retailer and people can touch and feel the products. And there are examples of how we can go towards a full, full, full circular beauty product. So I wanted to just announce that today as well. Yeah, well, congratulations. I'm so happy that you're going to be at Credo. And, you know, just, I really urge everybody listening, check out the brand guys. It's a beautiful, beautiful brand, like truly. And let us know what you think. And thank you so much, Nora. This is awesome. Thank you.