Women, Men & the "Gray Divorce": How to Reconnect When Everything Is Changing with Terry Real

On this episode of the Resetter Podcast, I am bringing you Dr. Terry Real. Now, you all are in for one treat. This is definitely the conversation around marriage and men and menopause that I really wanted to bring to you because if you're not familiar with Terry Real's work, he is a couples therapist and a New York Times bestselling author of many books. The book that introduced me to his work is called Us and we reference it in this conversation. I highly recommend it. And one of the things that I love about what Terry's doing is he's really helping men communicate, connect, better in relationship. And I have been really troubled in all honesty by the conversation around great divorce. And if you're divorced, this is of no criticism. If you're on the brink of divorce, you definitely want to listen to this episode. Or maybe you're in a marriage that, a long term marriage that you're looking just to re-event. And what I love about Terry's work is he really looks at the global picture of how the patriarch, not being men, but being a power, a structure, has really caused women to not speak up for themselves and has caused men to not be vulnerable. And when we look at the amount of marriages that dissolve, especially when a woman goes through menopause, at the heart of it is an imbalance of communication. And so what Terry's trying to do is bring forward to men a different way they can communicate with women. And this isn't a podcast I'd want to point out of male bashing. This is a conversation around how can we connect deeper with our partners? And he goes back and forth between men can do this and women can do that. And he gives lots of examples. So I really wanted to bring you all a conversation on how do we strengthen our marriages as we go through menopause? Or in some of your cases, and he talks about this, how do you know when it's time to leave? But there has been probably the most common thing I've heard as I've been promoting my new book, Age Like A Girl, Out Into The World, has been women asking me, how do I get my husband on board with the new changes that I've been going through? And the answer to that exists in this beautiful conversation with Terry Rale. So I highly recommend you listen to it with your partner. If that feels comfortable, there are some confronting parts of the conversation that are going to lead to some interesting dialogue. I'm sure amongst couples, but Terry's the expert. He has been doing couples therapy for decades, and he has been writing books about how to save marriages and how men specifically can show up with more connectivity for women to grab on to so the relationship can succeed. And he also speaks a lot about how women can talk to men in a different tone to pull that connection out. It's just magnificent, you all. I really enjoyed this, and I really hope you enjoy it as much as I did, but that you get a new set of tools to not only help yourself, but help your marriage, and to live a more full, happy, healthy life. This is really cool conversation. We'll leave links for all of his courses if it moves you to take his courses, but most of all, you're about to gain a whole new skill set when it comes to relationships. So enjoy. Well, let me start off, Dr. Terry, by telling you that I'm not only a super fan, I'm also a beneficiary of your work. So I just want to start off and say thank you for being here with me. I'm really excited about this conversation. Well, thank you, and thank you for the wonderful work you're doing with this podcast. And now YouTube channel, you know, a man call your men, D. Of course, yeah, let's do that. Please call me, sure. Okay, so you can't throw that out without me following up. What did you personally, what did you get out of it, or what changed for your man? Yeah, so you know, it's interesting. A large part of my new book, Age Like A Girl, is really about a 10 year research project that I did to understand what happens to the female brain as a woman moves through menopause. And there's a rewiring that happens that makes women more independent, makes women less agile or less inclined, I should say, to her people pleasing ways. And I not only was researching that, but I was experiencing that myself. And so I landed upon your book called Us, a friend had recommended the book as I was discovering that my behaviors were changing. And what I really loved about your book was it felt like it was the first time I had read a relationship book that had both the unique qualities of a man and the unique qualities of a woman. And how do we take our differences and bring them together to benefit a relationship specifically in my case, a 30 year marriage. So like I felt like you were going to bat for men, you were supporting men. And I think we're in a time where that is really necessary, not only for the culture, but it's really necessary for menopausal women. Yeah, absolutely. Manopause of women and post-manopause of women who are pulling the plug on their marriages in record number. That's right. That's right. Yes. Help is needed here. Yeah. Thank you. So when I started this book, there were two statistics that launched this 10 year study, a research project that now is called Age Like A Girl. And the first one was the most common time for a woman to commit suicide is the decade between 45 and 55. And that 70% of divorces after 40 are initiated by women. And so that started a long research of what's happening to the female brain. Fast forward to this moment, as I'm teaching the principles of this book, the most common question I'm getting right now from women is how do I explain this to my husband? And right now, I really feel like we have a lot of attention on what we're calling the gray divorce. And it's almost like divorce has become the new women's liberation moment. Yeah. And when I wrote this book, me and my agent, my publisher, and the whole team that worked with me on the book, I said, I don't want this to be a divorce book. I want this to be a book on how to marriages navigate this moment. So my number one question to you is, what does a long term marriage need to bring in to the conversation when a woman starts to go through the menopause process? Wow. Okay. So let me fade back a little. It is women, look, I mean, let me really fade back. Of course. The gray story, one of the gray stories of the 20th century is the changing roles of women. Women enter the workforce, women, feminism, 50 years of feminism, the culture shifted, women's empowerment is one of the gray stories of our century. Women have radically changed. Men, not so much. And they're in lies the rub. It is women who are spearheading a move toward redefining what marriage looks like. You know, my grandparents, a companionable marriage was the norm. Intimacy, what are you talking about? If my mom went to her mom and said, my husband's graded, he doesn't beat me or drink too much or cheat on me, but we haven't had sex in 20 years or we don't talk to each other or he's demeaning in public or periodically he has temper tantrums. I don't like him very much. What was she would have been told go home to your good man. Yeah, that's right. But nowadays it is just these what I call quality of relationship issues that are breaking up marriages. We have never wanted more from our marriages historically than we do now. We want long walks on the beach. You know the drill. We want hard to hard talks. We want great sex in our 60s and 70s. We want to be lifelong lovers, but we are trying to be lifelong lovers within a culture. Our Western culture, which is individualistic, not relational and which is patriarchal, not equal. And which does not give our sons and daughters and non-binary kids the basic skills of how to get this done. We know more about how to run a dishwasher than how to have a relationship. We don't. We have, I say, we have a filet mignon ambition, a lifelong lover relationship and hamburger skills. We just don't know how to do it. These aren't taught how to fight fair, how to repair, how to speak up for yourself with love. None of this is taught. So I would love to have relationship skills taught in elementary school and junior high. I mean, hello. We're now on wising up and talking about physical health, even sexual health. Well let's talk about how to handle yourself in a relationship. But research tells us that good relationship is as important to our health as not being in a bad relationship or in no relationships. I'm not talking about, you don't necessarily need a man, but you're still in a relationship. Not being an intimate connected relationship is as bad for us as smoking a pack and a half a cigarette at the day. It's a black and white research. Who of your people listening right now say, oh, I'm going to go out and smoke a pack and a half a week. But we do say, I'm not going to learn a big, I'm not going to put an hour into learning how to fight fair or stand up for myself in a way that's going to work. It should be spontaneous. I should just, so here's what's happened. When I say we now want an intimate marriage or long term relationship, well, who's that we, that we as women? And what's happening is across the West in heterosexual relationships, women are insisting on levels of emotional intimacy from their men that as a patriarchal culture, we don't raise boys and men to give. In fact, we raise them to not give it. You know, one of the things I say, look, you want to know about men, this is one sentence everybody can take home. The essence of traditional masculinity under patriarchy is invulnerability. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are. Think about boys, heroes, Wolverines, Superman, Terminator, no flesh on them. Literally no soft flesh on these guys. They're made of steel, literally. The more invulnerable you are, the more manly you are, the more vulnerable you are, the more girly you are, and girly you know a good thing. Okay, well, here's the problem. Ready? Let's go to over and A Brown is throughout the world. We humans connect through our vulnerabilities. Yes, so true. Yes. That's how we connect. So, you know, guys, if you're watching me, I don't know about you, but my wife, Terry, I want to hear about what you're feeling vulnerable about in your life. You do? Yeah. Does she say that? Yeah. Amazing. I'm going to try that on. We're both, you're not going to get very far. We're both there. I don't want to talk about what I'm vulnerable about. I'll talk about what you're vulnerable, but I don't like vulnerability. I'm a guy. Okay. What were, okay, so, somebody described my work with men as women have had a revolution and now I'm in up to deal with it. Women are asking for emotional intimacy from men. What do we learn as boys? Be independent. Be strong. Be logical. Don't be too emotional. Don't cry. Don't be vulnerable. Yeah. I deal with very tough guys and I deal with marriages on the brink of divorce. That's my feet. I deal with marriages that nobody's been able to help. And here's what I say to these guys. What you learned as a boy, whether you wanted to or not, it landed on you, whether without your consent. What you learned as a boy about what makes a good man, being strong, logical, independent, by today's standards will make guarantee that you're a lousy husband. Wow. Think about that. Yeah. What got imposed upon you as a boy because boys are not born like them. I have a friend. I remember that. Yeah. Those love their mommies. Little boys are more mommies than they do. It's a great thing. The research tells us if anything, little boys are more emotional than little girls, more sensitive. And moms know that about their little son. Yep. Until the code of masculinity lands on them. Now women, you spoke about women being less willing to be the accommodating peacemakers that women are groomed to be under patriarchy when they hit menopause like Gabe at the office I'm done. I want to be my own person now. Yeah. The wound to women as Carol Gilligan wrote back in the 80s and a whole generation of women after her is what the loss of boys, they stopped telling the truth. They over accommodate and resent it. That's the traditional role. That lands on girls at 10, 11, 12, which is when many psychiatric symptoms show up. Belemia, directia, depression, anxiety. Why then? Because they fall prey to what Carol famously called the tyranny of the nice and kind. Now Carol said her research broke open the day. A woman looked at her, she asked her opinion and the woman said, now Carol, do you want to hear what I think or do you want to hear what I really think? Oh, wow. By the way, I have a whole chapter on Carol Gilligan's work in my new book because what's interesting about what you're saying is I only saw it from the female lands, which is, and I added in my understanding of hormones and its effect on the brain that when estrogen comes in, it starts to activate the corpus colosum that is connecting the right and left hemispheres. And all of a sudden, a woman is bringing both hemispheres to every decision, which means she's bringing the emotional along with the logical and you combine that with Carol Gilligan's work, which is the cultures taught her that she's good if she pleases everybody. So I never heard the boy side of it. I only thought of the girl side of it. So that's really fascinating. Well, let me tell you the boy side and then let me tell you how they go together. Because Carol and I have worked a lot together. Amazing. Over decades. Okay, here's the boy side. Under patriarchy, the wound to girls traditionally. Now, feminism has shifted them. We'll talk about that. But traditionally, the wound to girls is over accommodation and resentment that shows up 10-11, as they're initiated in the womanhood, this is what they're initiated into. Be kind. Be accommodating. Don't rock the boat. And resent the hell out of it. Get depressed. Get symptoms. Get cancer and die. But don't rock the boat. Okay. Boys. So the wound to girls is disempowerment. The loss of boys and the healing move is re-empowerment telling the truth, standing up for yourself. The wound to boys is disconnection. The way we quote unquote turn boys into men under patriarchy. We teach them to disconnect from their vulnerabilities, from their feelings, literally from their emotions, from others. And what I wrote back in the 90s, I wrote a whole book on man called, I don't want to talk about it. The cost of a disconnected boy is a disconnected man. And the healing for a woman is re-empowerment. The healing for a man is reconnection. And this is what I do. Reconnect them to your feelings. Reconnect them to their heart. Reconnect them to the people that they love. There was this article in the New York Times. It ran today about fathers and films, and I'm quoted in it. It's all about these men struggling to find connection, often with your children. When they've been pulled out of connection, patriarchy pulls man out of connection. That's so true. So let me just say, when we're asking men to open up, share their feelings, be vulnerable, which all of which I support, we're literally asking them to reconfigure. What it means to be a man to begin with, we are asking for nothing less than for these men to be pioneers moving beyond patriarchy. And good for us, one of the things I say is that moving men, women, non-binary folks, into true intimacy is synonymous with moving beyond patriarchy. We have to reconfigure our traditional gender roles in order to be intimate with each other because those roles don't allow intimacy. One thing that's interesting about that is in my research, I discovered that estrogen stimulates oxytocin. So when estrogen goes away, oxytocin becomes what I call muted for a woman. Her oxytocin system doesn't work the same. And I will tell you as a 56 year old woman that I have found myself searching for deeper connection with everybody because that's where I get an oxytocin buzz. But if I listen to your words, I'm thinking about my own marriage and I'm like, how do you get then a man who's been trained by the patriarch to disconnect and you're like, hey, if this thing's going to continue forward, you're going to need to connect deeper with me. How does that work when he's never done that before? Well, first, why don't you start off with some acknowledgement and compassion? You know what? I want to acknowledge what I'm asking you to do is something not only did you never learn to do, but you are actively discouraged from doing. This goes against all the rules, my dear darling husband. And I know it does. And what an amazing courageous act on your part to open up your heart and have this old dog learn some new trick. Thank you for doing this for me. I mean, who sounds like that? Listen, you're not going to say, yeah, not very maybe the I know. Now, here's number one, man or criticism phobic. I have to teach almost every man I work with, healthy self esteem, which comes from the inside out. It doesn't get earned. You have worth because you're here and you're breathing. This is medical ethics. This is democracy. One man, one vote. You have worth because you're here. And then don't believe that. Man, believe that my worth is predicated on my performance. So you get somebody you love coming at you and going, oh, buddy, I don't like what you're doing. You better do it this way, not that way. They're going to shame. Yeah. Not guilt, not remorse. Healthy self esteem, which I have to teach men, women too, but means I hold myself in warm regard. Even while I feel proportionally bad about bad behavior, both at the same time. If I'm entitled, if I'm irresponsible, if I'm defensive, I don't feel bad about bad behavior. You deserve it or is about that bad or the sort of thing that you hear from husbands all over women, women confront them. On the other hand, if I do that in the bad behavior and I don't have some healthy self esteem on board, I go all the way in. I'm a bad person. Yeah. I'm a worthless person. I just did a whole talk on how healthy self esteem and men is a prerequisite for accountability and relate. If my self esteem is based on my performance, you tell me, hey, Terry, don't scratch me here. Scratch me here. What's the matter? You didn't like it over there? Boom. I'm a worthless piece of shit. Yeah. And I don't want to feel that. So how do I protect myself? Well, I argue with you about your criticism, that's how. Oh, yeah, I've been the recipient of that conversation. Of course. I mean, which is part of traditional masculine. Being accountable is moving beyond patriarchy. Being accountable is moving beyond patriarchy. Look at the male leaders who are searching all over the globe. You see them as souls of accountability is weak. Yeah. Vulnerability is weak. There's been across the globe a rise in some of the most vile aspects of traditional masculinity because men are feeling threatened by the rise of female power. Yeah. But women, in Jane Austen's day, you were even married or you're in your uncle's jack somewhere in the back 40. You needed marriage. You needed men. Nowadays, you don't. So, and women are proving that they don't by divorcing men and record numbers. Why do I want to say with you? Because of the quality of our love. That's why, not your page yet. That's those days are gone. Right. Yeah. Well, the quality of our love better be good. Women are raising the bar. And culturally, the response has been a backlash. But be traditional. Get rid of all this woken on fence and just go back to the 50s and we'll be fine. Well, sorry, that genie is not going back. That toothpaste is out of the tip. So rather than standing women down from these new demands for intimacy, my work, and I don't mean to whatever, but I do think it's a pretty unique contribution. I'm proud of my role as a public figure in this. I want men to stand up and meet these new demands. It's good for you. Relationship and learning intimate skills is good for us. You will live. This is what I say to the guys in my office. Honestly, got literally you will live 10 years longer. If I had a pill and you took it every day and I said you could live 10 years longer, you would take the damn pill. If you're related and you're in a good relationship and your partner and your kids are close to you and proud of you, you will literally live 10 years longer. Your partner will be happier with you. You'll have a better sex life. You'll have a better body. Your kids will be closer to you. You will be a better father than the one you had. Come on, man, let me teach you how to do it. And when you pitch it this way, not critically, this is what you're doing wrong. But positively, logically, this is what I can give you. Men are in stupid. They shape up. But women have to know how to ask how to insist. And so let me now talk about women. Yeah, I was going to say help women because I always try to call us out. And I can say that I've sat next to a lot of friends who have gone through the divorce process when they hit their 40s and 50s. And if there's one thing I observed is that they had a bit of a nagging quality that's like he's not doing this and he's not doing that. And I watched that and thought that's not going to get them anywhere. So I think this is really important that what you're saying, we need to help women understand how to create an environment where a man can do what you're asking the man to do. That's right. That's right. Under patriarchy. What do I mean by patriarchy? Well, the three, I think in centric rings of patriarchy, but let me just do the first one. The binary, the split, the having. You take the qualities of one whole human being, well, line down the center, go all these qualities are feminine, all these qualities are masculine. And we all know the drill. We know what goes where. Okay. Here's what happens. Because of feminism in this shift in the culture, because of a octetosa and estrogen drying up women are less willing. You know, there's an old saying in couples therapy post 45 50 each of the two genders start to blend. They start to move toward the middle and women start looking more like man and men start looking more like women. And it's just exactly what you're talking about, but you got to be careful. Here's what happens. Under patriarchy. You can either be connected or you can be powerful, but you can't be both at the same time. This is the way out of this mess. Girls, ladies, listen to me. Under patriarchy. We did a accommodating and resentful go long to get along, oxytocin, quote, unquote, feminine, powerful, logical assertive. I'm doing what the hell I want. Stand back quote, unquote, masculine, but masculine is not connected. It's powerful, but power is power over as we an isler. There's not power with. So when you step into power, you break connection now. What's happening? And I've been calling myself a feminist family therapist for 40 years. All of my friends and colleagues are feminists. That's the parallel car. We'll go again, the beautiful women of the stone standard. Right. Here's what happens. It's what I call individual empowerment. Remember, I said our culture is patriarchal and individualistic. Very much including self-help personal growth therapy, trial step. Personal growth is personal growth, not relational growth. And so what has as a couple of therapists, the bane of my existence is often individual therapists who empower their clients right out of marriage. Amen. I'm mad as hell and I'm not putting up with that. Yeah, easy for you to say. Here's the deal. A lot of people in general and women in particular, particularly when they hit post-menopause, move from this side of the binary to this side of the binary. And I call that individual empowerment. I was weak. Now I'm strong. Go screw yourself. Yes. And that's what you're hearing in your women who wind up diverse. Yes. I'm empowered. I found my voice. You shut up, sit down and listen to me. I haven't been speaking for 20 years and I'm finally going to tell you. That's right. That's right. I've been doing everything for you. I mean, I got men, the got men, Julie got men. I spent a day with her and she told me something that I really see in almost every woman who's been married. That resentment builds when you say yes over and over and over again to the things you really want to say no to. Of course. But here the women in our community, when I hear my friends who are leaving divorces, there is this anger and resentment. And what I think is so interesting about what you just said is that the woman now moves to the place of power and now you have two people in individual power. But that is moving you away from action. No, relation. You're done. You're done. You both have, both of you over there on that chronicle masculine side of power without connection and you're divorcing. Yes. And you're ready? Yep. A warm anybody could be a man, but particularly a woman. Woman moves from disempowerment to individual empowerment. I'm not putting up with this anymore. God damn it. And therapists, friends, family, priceless sponsors, cheer. Yes. Go ahead, sister. Get on that chair and scream at that son of a bitch. He desert. Well, you're going to get yourself. Okay. Here's the new news. Remember, I said moving men, women, non binary folks into intimacy means moving beyond paid for your key. Guess what? I was weak. Now I'm strong. I am going to stand toe to toe with you. I'm going to tell you my true. I'm going to tell you what I want from you because I love you. I love us. We're a team. Let's work together. This is what I want. Now, remember, I said, who sounds like this? Who sounds like this? This is what I want from you, honey. As a favorite of me, will you work on that? Oh, you will? Great. Listen to this one, Mindy. What can I give you to help you do that? Who says that? This is really beautiful. I love you. You're a team. That's great. You're willing to try to do that for me. How can I support you? The relational golden rule is, what can I give you to help you give me when I'm asking? We're a team. Let's work together. And the energy is love. Yes. Not power. I love you, honey. I know you love me. This is working, but this would work better. Let's roll up our sleeves and work on this together. No one, I call this loving power. Yes. And no one knows how to do that. This goes beyond patriarchy. You know what that reminds me of? There's a lot of discussion in feminist circles about men not creating safe spaces for women. And yes, we have plenty of examples of where women have been mistreated and their safety, emotional and physical safety has been at jeopardy. But what you're saying, and I want the women, and I'm hoping couples will listen to this podcast together. What I, the heterosexual ones, I think what we need to understand from the statement you just made is that it's safety is a two-way street. And so if you're wanting your husband to open up and be more vulnerable, when you make a statement like, how can I help you in this process than what you're doing is you're creating a safe container in which a man can feel like he could become vulnerable. Is that correct? Yeah, and think about it for a minute. Is it really in your interests to demand, do the man open up and be vulnerable and not provide a safe space for him to do it? I just think we don't think about it. How well do you think that's going to work? Well, no. I don't think we think about it. That's right, because we're individualistic. Yeah. For 50 years of therapy and feminism, women have earned the right to be as obnoxious as men as always been. It's like that is not a step up, but people are so thrilled at the shift from disempowerment to empowerment, that they're not paying attention to the fact that it's not loving, it's not relational, it's not positive, and it won't work. By this, I love you, honey. I know you love me. You're doing a great job. Lose the criticism. You're doing a great job. These are some of the things I appreciate about what you're doing. Now, here are some things that were working even better. Would you be willing to try that for me? Yeah, yeah. That's, can I give you a story? Yeah, please. True story. This is my sort of classic, but it's absolutely true. For those particularly, the heteronormative folks listening, as Phoebe can relate to this, her to him, your reckless driver, him to her, you're overly nervous. How many of you can relate to this one? Yeah. Okay. This fight had gone on for 20 years by the time they hit my office. It wasn't the central issue, but it came up. Mindy, after one session with me, this is a absolutely true story. Ready? Hurting him. Recall everything I've been saying about the new world order, loving power. Hurting him. Honey, I know you love me. Let's call the phone right now. What a difference in the energy. What a difference in the tone. Not righteous, indignation. It's well said. I've like a maniac. You don't give a shit. I can't. No. That's the way she sounded. Yeah. I know you love me. Yeah. Look, maybe I'm a nervous Nelly. I don't know. She takes a whole, I call it objectivity battle. Objective reality has no place in marriages. It's two subjectivities. I don't care who's right. I say the relational answer question who's right or wrong is who cares. Yeah. We're a team. Maybe I am a nervous Nelly. See, she takes the whole battle right off the table. You're nervous. No, you're reckless. No, you're nervous. I don't care. Maybe I am. But you love me. Look, when you drive really fast and tailgate people and move from lane to lane, none of which he did tonight, he just thinks he's safe, aggressive and safe. Racklust and unsafe. Instead of arguing about that, when you do those things, maybe it may be in whatever, but I get really scared, honey. You love me. When you're driving by yourself, I mean, I worry about you, but it's your life. Drive how you want. But do you really want me sitting next to you every time we're in the car being terrified? Is that the way you want to show your love from me? Listen, even though you may think you're safe, I'm scared as a favorite of me, could you slow down and drive more conservatively? Him to her. True, ready? Of course, honey. And he did. Wow. I was going to say, did that work? Yeah, like a knife through butter. Wow. Because he does love her. Yeah. Take objective and you off the table. It's not your reckless driver. No, I'm not. Yes, you want to forget it. As a be subjective, be humble as a favorite of me would you. Be relational. It's not about right or wrong. It's about our feeling. This is how I'm feeling. Would you help me with my feelings, please? Yeah, I'd be willing to do that. Nice guy. Yeah, I was going to say that seems like a man who wants to stay in his marriage, too. That could have gone on. As opposed to what? And don't you think I deal all day long with men who would like to say in their marriages if they had a shot at being able to do it? So here's my question on that. Is all the everything that was coming out recently has been that marriage, long-term marriage, actually benefits men more than women. And. That's been true for 30 years. Right. So I think a really interesting part of this discussion is what's the benefit to both parties to stay in a long-term relationship? The worm in the apple is the essence of what's wrong is what one of my heroes, the founder of family therapy, I'm a family therapist, Gregory Basin, anthropologist married Margaret Mead. Wonderful. Oh, wow. I know Margaret's work, yeah. And Basin wrote about what he called humans epistemological philosophical mistake. And the philosophical mistake is, I stand apart from nature and I condominate it. In the King James Version anyway, God gives Adam dominion over all the things that bad idea. So here's what I say. The idea that you stand apart from nature and you can control it is a suicidal delusion. Whether the nature I'm trying to control is my wife. Say now shut up and do it. My kids, you will do what I say. My body, you know, you're a doc, my GP, my family doc says he's gonna write a memoir of his life and he's gonna call it, how am I lost 10 pounds and 40 years? I gotta control my body. I've gotta control my thinking. You know, I'm a meditator. Oh, that's too negative. I gotta stop. Control, control, control. And by the way, for the women, the control is one down, up, regulate. That's what all that accommodating is doing. This control, don't set daddy off. Don't rock the boat. Don't stand up for yourself, but then we've got the shit out of it. That's the traditional role of women. So when you come out of this individualism and patriarchy, you come into relationality. What does that mean? I call it ecological wisdom. This is when I teach the men and women non-binary folk. Your relationships are our biospears. We're not above them. We're not below them. We don't upregulate them. We don't dominate them. We can't control them. Wake up. We're in them. And so for both men and women, it's in my enlightenest self interest. Not to give in to you, not to bully you, but to take care of my biosphere. Why? I breathe it. I can pollute my biosphere with a temperate tantrum here, but my partner and I are an ecosystem. My partner's going to withdraw over there, count on it. Look, from an ecological perspective, if one of you wins and the other one loses, you both lose. Why? Not idealism. The loser will make the winner pay for it. That's why. That the unacknowledged bill that comes due when women overaccomedy is resentment, and that resentment leaks out sideways. Yeah. It poisons them. They get physically ill. It poisons the relationship. Yeah. So lean in, stand up to each other, but with these new skills of love and teamwork. It's not about pounding you into the ground. It's about, see, we need more sex here, which is a guy who usually talks to, and honey, we both deserve a good sex life. What do we need to do to jump surface? We've been talking like two competing individuals and remembering that you're a team for both men and women. Yes. I'm powerful now. Sit down and shut up. No, I'm powerful now. This is what I want, honey. Let's work together to get this done. Right. Like the woman asking her husband to slow down. We're a team. We love each other. That's brand new. That goes beyond anything any of us have ever been taught. Yeah. I really like that way of thinking of it like a ecosystem. I think, because that's how I think of the body, the human body is an ecosystem. And especially the female body, every environment, the woman puts her body in, her body is going to adapt to whatever that environment is. So that's a beautiful way to look at it. I'm reflecting upon my parents are in their 80s, and they've been married 60 years. And recently, I had an interesting observation of my mom, because my dad went into spinal surgery. He was away from the home for close to three weeks. And she had to rely on her girlfriend. She started going out with her girlfriends more. She started doing things. And you could see her 86 year old self come alive. And I told her, I was like, hey, how come you don't do more things with your girlfriends? And she said, because I don't want to leave your father at home and alone. And I think one of the things that we see as we age is for men. And if this is a myth, I'm happy for it to be wrong. But it's harder for men to find male friendships. And women can't breathe without their female friendships. So one of the challenges that we see as men are trying to hold on tighter to the marriage, while women are trying to just get some freedom to go hang out with their friends. And I think this is a pretty common situation. Is there a way for men to, I mean, I don't know another way to save us to start to fret? I mean, as an adult, it's hard to find friends. But how do men start to find good meaningful relationships so that the center of that isn't their wife? Yeah, no, I talk about that. And of course, the literature on widows versus widowers is pathetic. And women do find when their men die and men fall apart. Supposedly, the strong, independent man just falls apart because this the only. So yes, no, I do talk to men about who do you talk to Bill? Right. And do you talk to anybody other than the folks who work? And how deep is the conversation? And I teach men to, OK, pick one guy. You've been going to the same six guys golfing every Sunday. Pick one guy that you think is the best shot and talk to him a little more than just about sports and politics. Tell him about your marriage. Tell him that you're worried about one of your kids. Show some vulnerability and see what they do with it. Now, this guy, you show some vulnerability. He's like, whoop, let's go right back to the Red Sock. Fine, done with him. This guy, you show him a little vulnerability. And lo and behold, he goes, wow, that sounds tough. Tell him, tell me what you've tried. I'm struggling with, oh my god. And suddenly, you're having a deeper conversation with this guy than you've had in 40 years. So you have to pick people and give it a shot by leading with your own vulnerability and seeing what they do with it. And then adjusting depending on what they do with it. So there's an art. And one of the things I want to say, particularly to the women. Yeah, please. Read my book, take my courses, do your best. If, no matter how skilled you are, you are not getting through to your partner. Rag him to me. We have the School of Creatures of Relational Life Therapy. We're very different than most couples therapists in that we take sides. And if a woman drags in a man and says, I want him to be more intimate, guess what we do? We go, she's right, you're wrong. Let me grab you by the collar and teach you how to do this. Which, no other therapists. Wow, you're going to have a light out the door after this podcast. Great. Go to my website, terriereel.com. It finds therapists. We have RLT trained therapists all over the world, really. So yes, I recommend RLT because they'll be your ally the way a lot of therapists want. But if you can't look, when do you need help? You need help when you can't do it yourself. Yeah. Yeah. My 77 year old wife has really bad arthritis. So I tie her shoes. Why do I tie her shoes? Because she can't. That I don't have. Yeah. When do you need help? When you can't do it yourself? When do you need help as a couple? When you can't get through to your guy yourself? Yeah. Then drag him to somebody else and ask them to help you get through to him. And an RLT therapist will help you do that. And what do you say to the man that's listening to this? He's like, I don't want to go to that kind of therapy. It's in your interest. It's in your enlightened self-interest to take care of your biosphere. I deal with tough guys. This is my beat. I get these big breaths. Why should I work so hard to please my wife? And I go knock, knock. You live with her. Right. It's in my interest to take care of the biosphere. And you know what? Here's the shorthand. If you ride in the one up, superior, entitled, disconnected, irresponsible, take a breath, open up and come down. Gile, open your heart. Be vulnerable. If you ride in the one down, afraid, accommodating, upregulating, walking on eggshells and resenting the hell out of it, take a breath, dare to rock the boat in these new loving, skilled ways that I'm talking about and take some risks that come up. If you're one up, your biosphere needs you to come down. If you're one down, your biosphere needs you to come up. Yeah. Figure out where you are and then lean into it, but with love and connection, not with scorched earth, I found my voice go screamers. That's beautiful. What about libido? That's another mismatch that seems to happen as we age. And you know, from a menopausal lens, of course, when there's, you know, women's desire goes down, there's dryness. It can be uncomfortable. And some, you know, some women have been in these long-term marriages where maybe there needs to be new tricks put in place. But it does seem as if there's a libido mismatch that can happen in the 50s and 60s for couples. How do you navigate that? You know, a friend of mine was a doc, a woman's doc when, by agra first hit. I'm old enough to remember that we were on the beach. In my adventure, to show you all of our female patients were, what did they give my husband? He left me alone and now he's chasing me around the room. Stop it. Whatever you're giving him, stop it. Yes. You know, the essence of sex therapy with low libido partners, abeders sex, but it's often women, along with whatever the physiological issues are, is reclaiming your own sexuality. Traditionally under patriarchy, women are over accommodating and resentful. That very much includes the bedroom. You talk about saying yes when you mean no. So many women service their guys because they don't want to deal with the pouting or the bed. It's easier just to pop them and put up that is a terrible, that's a great recipe for having no sexual desire yourself. So 99, 100 sex therapists in these situations will begin by empowering the woman and helping her rediscover her own aridicism. Do you masturbate? Do you have a vibrator? Do you have mannesty? You know, you've gone sexually dead because sex equals accommodating somebody. You're out of touch with your own sexual pleasure. Let's start there. Yeah. So in your situations, I put the woman in charge with her sex body. Yeah. And I get her to start feelings you see again. Have you seen the movie Hello Leo Grand? No. Oh, you've got to see it. It's about this exact thing where a woman, her husband dies and she realizes that she hasn't been having the sex she's been wanting to have. So she hires like a call guy to have the sex she wants to have. But to hear her, I think every couple should listen to it because to hear her explain what she wants to experiment with this guy, she can barely get it out of her mouth. And I think there is something to that that we as women were not taught healthy sexual behavior. And we're objectified. So we're taught by the patriarch. If you have big breasts or you're a certain size, then you're sexually attractive. And so you have a lot of women that are disconnected from their libido for sure. That's right. If you're not attractive, you feel shame. If you are attractive, you feel objectified. And in either case, you're reactive to the male gaze. You're not asking yourself, what do I want? You know, that's, there is some beauty in some of the sort of rock, the female rock stars and stuff. Starting with Madonna way back when who started claiming their sexual prowess. That's right. And strutting their stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I want women to start strutting their stuff. But what you have to understand is asking for what you want sexually for a woman, codes as selfish because asking for what you want in any way as a woman codes is shut yourself. In the same way I have to talk to men, I have to say is in your interest to come down off of your invulnerability, off of your power, off of your walls and join the human race and open your art. For women, it's not selfish to stand up for yourself is taking good care of your biosphere. When you don't take care of yourself, your guy pays for it. There's no favor there. Yeah. So I have to help women learn that, oh, really I get to say I kind of like it this way, not that way. I really get to say that. But one of the things I say, Mindy, is people tend to do in the bedroom what they do in every other room. And yes, it's selfish for a woman to claim her sexual power and ask for what you want. It's selfish for a woman to claim any power and ask for what she wants. So why would sex be different? That's right. And that therein lies a big core belief of my book is that I think men opposes the moment women wake up. And they're like, I can't do it this way anymore. And then the carnage of that are all of these divorces. And a question, I love how you're weaving in the patriarch because I think we've really thought of the patriarch as men. And it's not men. It's a power or a system that's over you, over all of us. And it does at least as much damage a man as he does the women. Agreed. Agreed. At least as much damage. So if we want a culture that has more community connectable men and women to stand up for what they believe in, then does there need to be a redefinition of what marriage is? Absolutely. And here's another thing that women have to get by. Ready? Why should I have to work so hard to teach this guy all this bullshit? Yeah, I've heard that. Yep. You know, he should just know. Yeah, maybe he should, but you want to tell me who you've got that does. I've been listening to women for 40 years. Like, girls, I believe you. I believe that men don't know how to be relational. Why don't you believe you? If you believe that men don't know how to be relational, why are you insisting they're relational, but not giving them the information about how to do it? That's right. Or helping them do it. Like, what do you think the odds are? They're just going to, oh, OK, I'm going to be relational. Now, sure. No. So there are three steps to getting what this is what my course is about online. I wish I would love people today. One, dare to rock the boat, loving power, loving power. Honey, you love me. I love you. We're doing fine. Not a criticism. We could do better. These are the things that would help me feel better. One, two, three, four. Would you be willing to work on them for us? For me, I know you're loved. And I'm willing to help. Two, once your partner says, oh, OK, I'll try. Don't criticize them. People say to me, well, you're really tough on men. When do women's issues come up? I go, the minute the guy starts giving her what she wants, that's when her issue's coming. I talk about transmission. I'm in a reception. Once he starts transmitting, their women fall in there. Oh, thank you. No. Yes, but. Well, yeah, you say you're going to do it but. You don't really mean it. Yeah, you're going to do it but. You don't do it well. You're going to do it but you're doing it now, what happened. Yeah. You know what? There's one thing to complain about not getting something. It's a whole other thing to open up and receive it. And so I teach women in particular to, I call it, celebrate the glass 14% full. It was only 5% full last week. But who does that? That's beautiful. And you know, have you ever heard the thing that, like, whatever you said before but gets negated, once you say but. Oh, yeah. Yeah, what I had a southern gal, a client who said, my daddy said everything before. That's a nice dress, but the him could be a little low. My daddy said everything that comes before but is bullshit. So yeah, we say and. Anyway, listen, so one. This is what I want from you. It's really, really important to me as a favor to me, to us, would you work on it? Sure. Good to. Let me break it down and teach you. I don't expect you to read my mind. Just like sex, we know this for sex. This is too soft. This is too hard. This is too slow. Let me teach you. So for example, when I come to you with a problem, don't thought my problem. Just listen to me. Be like a girlfriend. But you're there. There, there, there. So literally take the guy by the hand and show him what you want from him. It's beautiful. Yeah. And we're going to why shouldn't have to work that out? I know, life's unfair. Do you want it or not? I'm sorry. And then three, once your partner starts to try, reward them, don't discourage. Nice try, honey. Keep going. That's how you do it. I love that. If he did it at 5%, he's now doing it at 14%. You're moving it. It's so beautiful to think of it that way. I'll tell you something interesting. That's what you would do with your kid. Right. If we were a child. Yeah. And your child came with a D and you read him the right act. And they showed up with a C. You wouldn't say where's the A. That's right. You say that's great improvement. But we don't treat our spouses like that. Yeah. So when I got married, the months leading up to my wedding, my mom's friends all gathered me around. And these were about five women that were in their 50s that were still married. And they literally sat me down and they said, let me tell you what's going to happen. There's going to be a moment where you're going to wake up and you're going to say, what the hell did I do? And on that day, just know that's normal. And it's going to pass. And you're going to move through it. And I'll tell you, that was one of the most helpful things because my parents do have an incredible marriage that was always put on a pedestal. And we see incredible marriages in movies and Disney movies and all of that. And to know that the bumps would be there by these very wise women was a really helpful thing. Now, fast forward to this moment, my 25-year-old daughter is getting married next summer. And I keep thinking about how marriage has so many components to it that are outdated. And I keep thinking about what you're saying, where men can, if they show up more connected and women are better at expressing what their needs are, that the marriage can be stronger. What would you say in this day and age to a 25-year-old and her fiance is 28 about how does succeed at marriage? All this is how I begin us. And it comes from the intimate observation researcher Ed Tronick. He and Barry Bresilton were the first generation to stick a camera in front of mothers and infants and then fathers, and actually look at what went on instead of Freud and figuring out from a 40-year-old or his remember, no, let's look at it. And what Tronick came up with was Ivan Stoll at Barrow. All relationships are an endless dance of harmony, disharmony, and repair. Closeness, disillusionment, and a return to close them. And harmony, disharmony, and repair can play out 20 times over one dinner conversation. It can play out over 40 years in a marriage. And when you're in the disillusionment, disharmony phase, it sucks. And you're talking to the guy who coined the phrase, normal marital hatred. When you're in disharmony, that moment, I can't believe, I am so trapped with how did I hate your gun. That's fine. Don't sweat it. But all of the skills that I teach are all about moving from that moment back into repair. And there's skills that have to be done on both sides. And who does it? Very few people in our culture. So the disruption is normal. And how dark and upsetting that disruption is normal. Now take a breath and figure out how you're going to get back on the horse you just fell off of. That is the essence of a real relationship. In our culture, we worship harmony, harmony, harmony. Just like a 17-year-old body. Just like sex like the first two weeks that you know, harmony, disharmony. You know what I say, Mindy? I actually wrote this. You know how on the back of a couple's therapy book, you always get the couple. And they look like they just had the biggest orgasm of their life. I want a book where Blinden and I are like, I hate your gun. I'm sure you can pray that. You go to a cocktail party and you hear, oh, 87-year-old Mindy and her husband Fred. They've been married for 70 years. They're more in love now than I think. Yeah, once I like to hear this, there's 87-year-old Mindy and husband Fred. They spend 20 years duking it out. Fred used to be a rager. Mindy drank too much. He finally got fed up and left her for a year. I fell in love with another woman. Mindy said, I'm going to deal with my dot, dot, dot. Fred reluctantly came back. They went to couple's therapy. They worked it out. Are they great? I mean, it depends on the day, but they're really pretty committed to each other. Aren't they adorable? Just once I like to hear a couple describe that way. It would be a very real description, for sure. How do you know? How does a couple know when it's actually time to end? And to split? Well, good plug because I'm about to do a three hour workshop on should I stay or should I go? And so everybody should do that, but I'll do the headline. Because I have a tool. The tool is a question. Now, first of all, I believe in the serenity prayer. You do everything you can on your end. And that includes, I'm learning all these skills about how to approach my partner with loving power, ain't working. I drag my partner to a therapist, ain't working. I fired that therapist and went to that therapist, still ain't working. This isn't this. I'm not going to get what do I do? Here's a question. Ready? Mm-hmm. I call this a relational reckoning. Am I getting enough in this relationship to make grieving what I'm not getting worth my while? It's beautiful. Am I getting enough to make grieving what I'm not getting worth my while? Am I getting enough? Ask yourself, what am I going to miss if I kick this sucker out the door? And that includes money, logistics, help, but the get all of it. What's my life going to look like without? Yeah. Am I getting enough in all these ways? And what our culture does in preparatory is grief. Oh, yeah. You are an imperfect person, married, doing an imperfect person. There are things they are not going to do for you. There are things that they are going to do that are going to drive you insane. Yeah. OK. What do I do with that? Nothing. Be let. Bear it. Yeah. And no, if the answer is even though this drives me nuts about them, these five things are so wonderful. Yeah. No, it's worth my while to stay. Then embrace what you're getting and don't walk around like a resentful victim. Yeah. And if the answer is no, it's not worth it to me. You're done. And you go. Yeah. I love. I've heard a stare perils say that you're going to grieve something. You're going to grieve a relationship that you once had or what it could have been or you're going to grieve the person you might have been outside of the relationship. So pick your grief, which grief are you going to go for? So we're a perfect human beings. Yeah. The issue is we long for the divine. I mean, in our heart of hearts, we really want, and of course, the advertising in Hollywood, we really want gods and goddesses who are going to, like, utterly be there for us and complete it. It is exactly your human imperfection and mind and how we manage that collision. That's the guts of what real intimacy is. That's the show. That's where you get to grow and go beyond your comfort zone and learn some things about yourself. If you were being endlessly gratified, I mean, I'd be bored to death. But you're just not going to grieve that thought. What a real relationship is. That's an AI program. Yeah, it's really beautiful. What do you think the art culture can do to support men right now? I'm seeing a lot of conversation. I'm not just talking about men we might be married to, but I'm the mother of a son. And I took that responsibility really seriously when he was born. And I can tease 23. I continue to look for ways I can help him feel connected. I think one of my big takeaways from this conversation is how the culture has hurt men and women are screaming to bring men back into relationship and to help men change. But it gets exhausting sometimes. And it needs all of us. So what can we do culturally to support men? Let me talk about the boys. Yes, please. OK. I want you to understand that raising a relational boy is going against the culture. Yeah. And I want you to understand what you're asking your son to do. So I talk about raising our sons in particular to be culturally literate. And in our culture, there's a choice. At any given moment, you can be really authentic, which means human, vulnerable, and express yourself, and you'll get shit for it. Or you can accommodate, duck under the radar, escape the grief you'll get, but sacrifice your own. The story I always tell is this one. If I may, my kids were in their 30s now, but when they were little boys, we were in the Caribbean, and they were doing corn rolls. Oh, yeah. And so my older son is a big jock. He had maybe two little Keith Richards rock star corn roll. I was in a, the other one who grew up and became a ballet dancer. And now he's a doctor. But he danced for the LA ballet for a year. He was like, yeah, let's do it a whole lot. And his favorite colors, which were golden pink. So the night before they go back to school, they have this stuff in their head. And it's quite a deal to get it out. And Berlin and I sit him down and go, OK, here's the deal. If you keep this stuff, everybody could love you. Think you're the head of the town. Or some or all could give you a lot of grief for it. You have to decide. If you take them out of your hair, you're giving up the joy of walking in with that stuff. If you don't take them out of your hair, you're going to have to withstand whatever people get throw at you. What do you guys want to do? Not our decision is there. It's beautiful. What do you guys want to do about it? And the little one said, I'm going for it. And the other one, but when it came time to put their foot in the car to go to school, the older one freaked out. I can't do it. I can't do it. And we wound up having to cut it. Oh my gosh. And I think knowing the kids in his class, he would have gotten shit for it. The little one who's always been a little charmed was the toast of the town. But I don't think my older one was stupid. And when we teach boys to be relational, we have to understand just like when we're asking men to be more intimate. We're asking them to move beyond patriarchy. When we're asking boys to stay relational, it's within a context in which there's a lot of pressure for them to not do that. So I want you to have sensitivity to that. Case by case, it's not your decision is theirs. But I do want you to build what I call a relationship-charaching subculture around your family, friends, go into school and either join or create a non-bullying committee. Because the way boys are enforced in the patriarchy is through bullying. The biggest enforcers of traditional masculinity or other boys on the playground. So do what you can to protect your son and show your son different ways of being a man than what they're going to get out in the media. And take that job seriously. And then don't assume that your boy is going to stop being relational because that's what happened. Yeah. One thing I used to do with my son a lot, because he would want to avoid conflict, and he had quite a temper, is that I found one thing that I could say to him, which was, when you look me in the eye, I know you're listening to me. So I don't care what you're saying, but just sit here and look me in the eye, because that's how I feel like your pain attention. And that one became really, I have a 23-year-old, very relational son. And my new phrasing at 23, as he's in a relationship, is I ask him questions, and this one's interesting. I'll ask him questions like, tell me how you're feeling about that. I try to get him to use his feeling words. And sometimes he'll say to me, Mom, I don't like talking about my feelings. And I find that I'm sort of at a loss for what the next thing is to say to him. But I try to show him, by our, by his relationship to me, what I'm looking for. Do you think, how do we help young men, especially? I've got, he's 23, he's dating a woman that he's very serious with. And I just keep thinking how to support him in that relationship in the more connected way. Just tell him that being connected is a good thing. He even though, I want you to be connected to your woman and don't be telling your male friends about it. That's just a thing too. But how will we change it if nobody, you know, it's like if it's all done in secrecy, how are we gonna change the patriarch? One step at a time. But, you know, I don't think this is for you to do. But when I'm sitting with men, I routinely, you don't have feelings, Bill. You got a piece of paper? I want you right down these seven words in a column. Primary feelings, like primary colors. They're a million views of feelings, but these are primary. Joy, pain, anger, fear, shame, guilt, love. As you listen, joy, pain, anger, fear, shame, guilt, love. Got them, Bill? Yeah. Good. As you're sitting there now, what are you feeling? I could be faint, but tell me something invariably. Well, I don't want to screw this up. I guess that's what would that be? Nervous? That's fear Bill. Okay, Bill, where's that in your body? What's the sensation? It kind of my chest, what do you got? It butterflies. If those butterflies could speak, what would they say? I hope I don't screw this up. Okay, great. What else do you feeling? Well, I'm feeling some Mindy. By the time I'm done with this list, I've been noticed where every man comes up with three, four, five feelings, five of them I'm done with. And then I get to say the punchline. Here's the punchline. Bill, you're a passionate guy. You know what? Your feelings never left you, you left them. All you have to do is turn the satellite dish in, get some structure and pay attention to them, they've been burbling along all along. So here you go. Yeah, amazing. Well, Terry, this has been an amazing conversation. And I really, again, admire work and I really hear the cries of my community. So I think this podcast is going to do incredibly well and help people. So thank you for your wisdom. Tell us a little bit about your courses because I know that there's a lot of couples that are looking for a lifeline. Yeah. So we have sort of three flagship programs, go to Terryreal.com. We have therapists that you can find all over the world. And how to get more of what you want to stand up and love in your relationship is the basic relationship skills course, how to fight fair, how to empower your partner to come through for you, how to get what you want. Amazing. Yeah. We have one course on self esteem, what it is and what it is. Because most people don't have it. And one course on healthy boundaries, how to assert healthy boundaries without clobbing your partner. So these are the three, and then we have little specifics like how to come back from an affair to stop fighting. Should I stay or should I go? It's going to be the new one. So we have these little courses and then we have these bigger courses. Come to my website and investigate, read my book, of course, but take the course or two. And if the guy you're with won't take them, you take them. And then seduce them. Hey, Bill, I've been taking this course by Terryreal on relationship. I just realized I can be one off of boundaryless. You've got this grid. And this is what I sound like. What a pain in the ass. That must be for you. Hey, you want to see where you are on the grid? It's kind of fun. That's beautiful. Talk about your own work and what you've learned and do it with humility and honesty. And that's the best way to invite your guy to get, oh, that's kind of interesting. Okay, where do I put it on the grid? But you start first. Amazing, amazing. Well, keep up the great work. I assume it's Terryreal.com and we'll leave links in here. So yeah, thank you. Well, again, I've been listening to, I listened to us on a drive from LA to San Francisco. And it was a really good read. I really, a good listen. So, and I was so intrigued, I then went and bought the book. So just, yeah, really thank you. That, you know, I really, the women thank you. I think the men thank you too. But I think what at the heart of this conversation why I wanted to bring you on is that women aren't wanting to leave their marriage. They're wanting more connection. Yeah, as my beautiful DEI consultant, Duranion says, let's not have the oppression, Olympics, you know, patriarchy hurts everybody. Yes. We all want to connect. Before you get individually empowered, bed up and leave the son of a god, drag him to somebody like me and see if he can be made into a better son of a god. But you have to learn how to do that to go for yourself. Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much, Terry. I really appreciate you. Beautiful word. Thank you. Thanks so. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it. So please leave us a review, share it with your friends, and let me know what your biggest takeaway is. Thank you. Thank you.