1KHO 686: Put Down the Phone and Pick Up Your Marriage | Dr. Tracy Dalgleish, I Didn't Sign Up For This

Oh, it's a beautiful world Ain't nothing on the screen that's ever gonna be this view Oh, it's a beautiful world And I just wanna share with you It's a beautiful world Such a beautiful world Oh, it's a beautiful world Oh, it's a beautiful world Oh, it's a beautiful world Oh, it's a beautiful world Oh, it's a beautiful world Calendar get started at go daddy dot com slash arrow that's go daddy dot com slash Welcome to the 1000 hours outside podcast My name is jenny erich and the founder of 1000 hours outside and I have read a book that is so insightful and there's actually two books This is like uh everything that we need to be talking about it's called I didn't sign up for this a couples therapist shares real life stories of breaking patterns and finding joy and relationships Including your own she's also read a book about mother-in-laws Dr. Tracy Dougleesh How'd I do? You did it you got it. It just rolled right off Welcome. Thanks for being here Jenny, thank you so much for inviting me here for reading my books and also For the work that you're doing to help parents mothers and to help families. So thank you Oh, you're so sweet. I you know, I read your book and in some ways it was heart-wrenching The you know to to look at we've got kids that are ages nine to 17 But to look at the situations often when kids are really small and you're Transitioning into becoming parents and how difficult that can be and these situations I'm like they made me emotional and I was like, oh, you know If everyone could just read this and in no ways to do better and and to know Because you had talked about how forewarned is not forearmed You know like we're forewarned like oh, you know, it might be hard You have this baby the first couple years, but you're like you also have to have some skills In order to make it through some of these rockier times So first of all, let's talk about something really unique about this particular book So I've got I didn't sign up for this You also have you your husband and his mother creating a healthy relationship with your mother-in-law And your spouse in five simple steps But this book I didn't sign up for this includes your own Like you're a therapist and you include your own things in the book, which I think is really rare. Can you talk about? What led you to do that? I remember So often having these conversations with other parents as I entered into motherhood And I used to say I thought doing my phd would be the hardest thing To ever do in my life to sit in a room to research and write and talk about one thing only and that was my research project And then I became a mother and I would be at the park Around other parents and I would be listening to parents talk about Feeding schedules and nap times and you know all the things that we talk about and inside I would be seething and wondering does anyone else hate their husband the way I do Does anyone else resent them and I'm thinking here. I am a couples therapist. I know all the skills and tools I know what I need to do and yet I leave my therapy room And I know that I've been a human a lot longer than I've been a therapist And I too know what it means to be standing in the shower crying saying the very things That my clients kept repeatedly saying to me. I didn't sign up for this This wasn't what I expected and also then the shame that so many couples and mothers feel because It comes to this place of am I the only one? What's wrong with me that we're not joyful light and happy like all of those instagram couples that we're seeing And so as I was writing these four the first book reads Almost like a fiction novel a lot of people say they plow through it because they're like what happens to emily and mad I need to know and they get you know they get right through the end And I thought when I'm exposing stories Of real couples How could I do that and not peel back the curtain into my own life? Because I don't want people to and this is what we do with experts. We think oh, they have it all together Oh, dr. Tracy she you know, she probably never gets critical and angry with her husband And here I am I'm a human with a nervous system that responds that is also built on my own history of early childhood experiences as well Okay, so if you want insight into the therapist's life, this is in here as well We'll went into all the different stories and actually to be honest Tracy I had never really considered this is so rude I had never considered the point the vantage point of a therapist where you're like I gave them an assignment. I gave them some homework to do hope it works You know and like sometimes it does it or or where you're like Sometimes people leave and you don't know if you're gonna see them again. Are they gonna come back next week? Are they gonna come back in three months? You don't know if they're gonna take your advice I was like, oh This is really intriguing to have a little bit of a viewpoint from your side of it And then like you said you also share your own stories But you use this word duped and I had read a book where it said it's biologically normal to fall in love But it's not biologically normal to We're not wired necessarily to stay in love and I was like, oh, that's kind of interesting But you talk about we kind of can feel duped the book is called I didn't sign up for this because You say honey, it's so good. Honey. It's not funny. It's kind of funny Unhealed wounds from childhood don't necessarily show up in the honeymoon stage Instead they are more likely to emerge once we're more settled into a relationship catching us by surprise So this is kind of what's happening, right? You're like you're in this honeymoon stage And then you're like, oh Once you're settled in you're like this person isn't exactly who I thought they were Or this person is reflecting back to me Parts of myself I have shut down and never owned And I think of one of the stories in there I do think how her husband was continuing to Be playful and express what he wanted and do the things he wanted to do and it was reflecting back to her this desire that she never Allowed herself to have and she had she had a resentment. She talked about resentment that feeling of You know, this doesn't feel good and underneath that it was envy Envy that he got to do those things and she didn't allow herself to show up So it does genie. It feels like we get duped because we think it's going to go one way and then Here we are In the depths of postpartum Waking up in the middle of the night and wondering how how did we get here? And for so many of us we don't have the skills and tools and that's really where The desire of this book came from is can you see what other couples look like? But also Can you actually then take on some of these skills and tools because we also think well, you're no longer this person that I Thought I was marrying so I just need to move on But if we keep ending relationships, then we are repeating what we have not healed I read and I I love all of your notes for people who are listening. Ginny has like a whole stack of notes from the book I read okay I didn't say I read this thing in someone else's book and I didn't say it in that podcast because I was like Oh, this is like this is really kind of abrasive in some ways, but this woman had written in her book like We were helicopter parenting the overparent, you know in this stage like safety safety this day and age of safety safety And she basically said like if we really cared about the health and safety of kids We would work harder on our marriages Hmm And I was like, oh You know because she was like right the statistics are pretty clear Your kid is probably not going to be kidnapped, but you know if you're not an abusive But the statistics are pretty high for divorce. Oh my goodness You are just singing the language that I speak and what I live wholeheartedly It's one of the reasons why I pressed publish on my first instagram post in july 2018 like I remember After watching some news clip about couples and I was like, oh, what is that? That's not what we're doing. That's not evidence-based That's not what we need to be doing because every Here's if you want a successful business You create a business that's going to solve a problem for a parent if they believe that Their child will cry less Will eat the tricky food that they refuse to eat if right like that sells Do you know how many sleep sacks I bought? I bought a doll. Listen, we hardly had any money I bought a doll that that would make a heartbeat sound I'm not kidding. I think it was like 70 dollars Like we hardly had money for groceries and I was like if I put this doll next to my child Then it's playing a heartbeat. So maybe she'll sleep and then it didn't work Oh my goodness, but but it's true though It's that I want to solve this problem for my child and that I love that about parents today and I can tell you for certainty that if there are two sale items One is to be the parent you want to be and one is to improve your relationship Guess what most people choose and I think because they feel and it's not true They feel they have the most control over that and we love control. There's more certainty that comes from it I feel like I have more impact on my children than when I go to my partner and I try this new communication tool And then they don't even respond to me and The most real thing that we need to sink into is when we model to our children what that cycle looks like connection disconnection and repair our children then grow into adults And go into the world knowing that they don't have to leave a relationship just because they feel disconnected Yeah, it's huge. It's huge. It's huge and also too the couples I'm most concerned about are the couples who Tell me they don't fight These are the couples who don't bring up their struggles the ones who push down their desires wishes and needs Because arguing discussing conflict actually, I don't know if you saw this recently I think Travis Kelsey was talking with George Clooney And they both said that they've never had a fight and I'm thinking okay So maybe you haven't had the like door slammed and something thrown and screaming at each other fight But I know for certain that there are disagreements that happen with those couples because it's normal Healthy couples have that but you know what else what else healthy couples have Repair they know how to come back closer together And they do it sooner rather than waiting the weeks afterwards It's so good and you're gonna learn so much in here like you have They like you said you follow through these different stories including your own and the stories are meant to Nearer a lot of the clients that you've had in your therapy Sessions over the years because you even said like if you are reading this and you're you know You come in for therapy and you see yourself in the story. This is not your story. It's just it's been repeated so many times But then you also have all these sidebars about I may have so many notes. This is the problem with having all these notes Tracy but the sidebars of like the four horsemen and There was another one about I'm gonna find it later. I'll come back to it But but all these little sidebars of I mean, it's just so many tools The book has so so many tools in it as well as sort of reflecting back to you that These things are maybe a little bit more normal. You're not the only one And I think that's what I really wanted people to see in this book I think it's something that we really miss about couples people are more today more willing to talk about parenting struggles There is more openness around mental health difficulties. Where do we continue to hold a lot of shame? It's the couple piece, you know, you're at the Christmas party or the next holiday event or the kids party and Everyone's talking about family vacations coming up. What's sport activity? What summer camps they're registered? What what thing they're gonna do next? But who's saying, you know, we just got through this really rough patch Yeah, my husband thinks it's fine to make sausages for dinner and that's all It is tricky it is tricky because like you don't want to throw that person under the bus That's a story from the book. So uh, yeah, I mean Yeah, it's it's really tricky. So can you talk about the the sort of beginning? So we already talked about this sort of feeling of duped and then all of a sudden especially maybe when you bring a kid into the mix then Everyone's tired. Everyone's stretched thin. Everyone's dealing with things they weren't expecting and so I think that can Exacerbate maybe some of these foundational issues. So you talk about the word imbalance Summed up in one word you talk about imbalance. Now, this is your story. This is in your chapter. It's so hard You say I'm confronted with imbalance first thing in the morning When amid a flurry of diaper bag packing Baby bottle prep and the the anticipation of a thousand possible needs our son might have while I am out I watch my husband leave the house for work without a backward glance The imbalance is on full display again when I'm rocking our son to sleep for the fourth time Greg is out golfing with friends My life has been radically changed by the weight of managing the household and our marriage. Meanwhile Greg's life appears unchanged Mm-hmm. It's so hard and nobody really talks about it You're definitely not prepared for it. Like you say you you might be forewarned. You might not even be forewarned But you're certainly not what was it were to use you're certainly not forearmed I remember this couple and I sat with them and we I had asked one simple question I'd said when the imbalance was really seeping through they had two young kids and I had said tell me about the roles you watched your parents play And that one question helped them realize that they were acting on autopilot from the world roles that their parents took So he was playing exactly like his father And she was stepping into The role that she saw her mother and so of course we do that right and also our socialization teaches us, you know Mom you're the you're the relational holder. You bring everyone together. You're the planner. You're the coordinator You also are making all the doctor's appointments and and and It's tricky because it I think Where we stumble is that a lot of us don't know what we don't know and having children catapults you into this growth transition of Whoa, what is this? And so we don't have the tools or the language or the questions to ask each other and plan for this ahead of time until Many couples end up in the spot and similar to the one I was in is how did this happen? How how is it that I am planning all of these things and I also Give my husband a lot of compassion because he didn't know either We both didn't know and also too. Ginny when we became parents This was in 2015 the word mental load had not taken off yet And I actually remember sitting in a client session and this might have been after the birth of my second And the my client had said, oh, yes the mental load. I thought mental load. I haven't heard this yet Which is interesting because parents today already know what the mental load is Yeah She say there's three parts to a task and I think this is the part that you don't know what you don't know The three parts to a task a task are conceptual conceptual I can't say the word conceptualization Planning and executing there's three parts to say women are far more at risk for developing resentment when they only offload the execution Just tell me what you want to do and I'll do it But there's actually so many more components than just the execution How do you deal with that? So this was ibrotsky's book fair play where she talks about the ec the the cpe Got conceptualization conceptualization planning and execution that word's going to trip us up today And it was almost this like aha moment of oh This is why things feel so heavy Because and I'll full I will wholeheartedly sit in this if you had seen me working with a couple in 2006 2007 You would have seen me say Maybe we need to create a list and look at all of those tasks that you're doing it makes sense create a list, right? Instead of then seeing that actually each task has three parts to it And so if we think about soccer we're registering my son in soccer It was no problem for me to say to my husband. Hey, okay. Here's the link Here's like this team go register and then he would take our son to soccer and that very much is a visible task And all of the other parents would be like, oh your husband's so great He's taking your son to soccer and I'm at home just oh, yes, he is. Isn't he great end? Guess who text all of his friends moms Guess who then did all the research of the other leagues guess who then looked at our schedule and then also who Had to look up cleats and fought all the things right and that was so heavy And it's so much more than just the one small piece of taking the child there We actually had a conversation with our kids. I think this was two summers ago Because my husband does do more of the drop-off and pick up for summer camp And so my son I'm tucking him into bed and he's like dad is so great He picks us up and drops us off for summer camps. I'm like, oh, you know what bud? Yes, isn't that amazing that he gets to do that? It's such a gift that he gets to do that part. I love that Okay, and then I say well, who do you think registers you for those camps? I was like, oh I don't know. Oh, I do. Oh, and did you know that me and your friends parents? We all got together and planned which ones I was going to register you so you had your friends there with you Oh, I didn't know that and so it's this helping our children to understand What's involved in doing things so that when we when they grow up they understand tasks are not just the actual doing of the thing It's really good. Those are really good discussions to have because you Reflect in this book, which I think is fairly common and that's why it's in the book These men that seem rather aloof. They're on their phone They don't know what the family plan is for tomorrow They pick to go golfing Then they're like, why do you say that's this it's not even that big of a deal And you know, they're just not plugged in they're plugged into their phones and the the kid falls and they don't even look up And I just I don't know. I felt that deeply like as a society It does just feel like They're and you're like well that person is an adult like the like matt No, this is like a fictional person but like based off of Emily based off of people that you've talked with you say She confides doubt. This is Emily She confides why why can't he just do what I ask? First of all, so there's there's like the execution part maybe is off as well I have to do everything i'm the ceo the mother the partner the chef the house cleaner the organizer If I ask him to do one simple thing, he should be able to do it She confides doubt that matt has it in him to be able to take responsibility for household and child care tasks He makes sausages for dinner Spring has a way of filling up the calendar quickly field trip sports travel co-op which are all good things But they can make it challenging to keep curriculum learning consistent March is really about maintaining momentum while life gets busy That's why having a flexible organized learning tool can make such a difference in the final stretch of the home school year Ixl is designed to fit into your routine not complicated Ixl is an award-winning online learning platform Offering interactive practice in math language arts science and social studies from pre k through 12th grade It adapts to each child's level keeps them motivated and gives parents clear visibility into progress What I especially appreciate this time of year is how simple and time-saving it is Everything is organized by grade and subject so you can jump right into Exactly what your child needs whether that's reinforcing a concept before testing or Confidently moving ahead the clear explanations and visible progress markers help kids stay encouraged as they work toward year-end goals Make an impact on your child's learning get Ixl now and when thousand hours outside listeners can get an exclusive 20% off Ixl membership when they sign up today at Ixl.com slash 1000 hours Visit Ixl.com slash 1000 hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price Okay, I have been waiting to say this wound bikes is the official 2026 bike partner of 1000 hours outside And it just makes sense because here's what I know when kids fall in love with riding bikes Something shifts they go from hesitant to flying down the sidewalk with total confidence and that confidence spills into everything else These bikes are lightweight thoughtfully designed and built so kids can actually succeed the brakes fit their hands The geometry fits their bodies they feel capable right away and in a world pulling our kids towards screens Bikes pull them toward freedom. So we are kicking off spring with a 100 hour ride challenge We'll release a special tracker to log 100 hours outside on bikes And yes at members we're working on bringing that right into the 1000 hours outside app It's going to be so fun If you've got younger riders the womb go bikes are perfect for beginners and come in six bright colors Including a brand new powder pink that just screams spring If you're working toward your 1000 hours outside this year a great bike makes it a whole lot easier Womb designs lightweight bikes built just for kids so they can ride farther and ride happier go to womb.com That's wom.com and use code outside 10 to check out for 10 off your bike purchase excluding the womb wow Excluding the womb wow that's outside 10 for 10 off at womb.com And i'm like i have friends that have the same story. It's like well, they needed the husband to make dinner and they made meat You know like well, there was no sides. It's like well, you've had dinner for 32 years Has anyone ever just served you meat like you've gone to a restaurant Do they ever just give you steak or other sides, you know, so you're kind of like well, how can they not know? It's frustrating to read. Oh it is. I'm glad you got frustrated because that's like that's you're supposed to get frustrated You made sausage for dinner and then his response, which I think is even even makes it more maddening is Well, I can't do anything right, you know, it's never good enough for you. At least I did something By the way, I I narrated the book. I didn't get to use voices You did a great mad voice there. I love it. So so hey listen This is the pattern there's two common patterns that show up. I talk about lots of different cycles in the book but one of the patterns is the over functioning under functioning pattern that shows up in heterosexual relationships and often times it's women who are over functioning and We can talk about things like weaponized incompetence We can talk about all of the things but what ends up happening is two people create this dynamic together And I remember doing it. I remember going to the um Pharmacy and seeing deodorant on sale and thinking oh gosh, I think my my then boyfriend I think I think greg's low on deodorant. I'll get some deodorant make sure he has some extra at my apartment, right? So I was them the the buyer and noticor of deodorant and then it defaulted to me I just took on that role and so then he starts to under function So the overfunctioner is the person who's the problem solver. They're the logistics manager. They do everything and sometimes the thing that nips them in like kind of getting backfires backfires is a red link for up the one the thing that back The thing that backfires for them is They then take on all of this stuff and tell the story It's just easier if I do it myself And that's a tricky story and it is kind of because it's a hundred percent sausage And you've got kids and you're like well, that's not a dinner I think that's a tricky part It feels so much like toddler behavior and i'm sure that it's not and i'm sure that there's like all sorts of reasons why It can totally feel that way. It feels like well gosh if I break the dishes My mom's not going to make me wash the dishes anymore. It kind of feels a little bit like that So the underfunctioner learns to not solve their issues They learn to then just let the other person do it. They they almost act Um like they don't know how to do the thing They say oh you you always know the solution So you do it and that's an infuriating cycle to get into because you're right You are a grown adult wins the only time that you have had just meat on your plate and so this is a conversation together of How do you also take ownership and responsibility For the well-being of our entire family and that means that a nutritious meal I don't it doesn't matter if it's frozen broccoli or you put some salad there You have a few cucumber slices a whole meal looks like that You don't get to default to doing part of this stuff And it is a hard conversation because it requires us to have to communicate And to to be able to hear something and I want to come back to that part with matt Here's what a lot of men do What they do is they hear their partner come to them and it's a complaint. It's an issue. They're hurt. There's a struggle They're overwhelmed. It's something Immediately they go into their own shame spiral and they go into this. It's all my fault. I can never get it right What's the point? You're always criticizing me right here when men go to this place They are breaking the connection with their partner And if people could start seeing that when your partner comes to you whether it's about the sausages or it's about the diaper bag Or whatever it is They're coming to you because they want to problem solve with you You matter to them. It's connection that they're looking for so don't go into your inadequacy or helplessness Go into understanding what their experience is is like in that moment So that you can have their pair so that you can salvage your relationship and this is good for everyone It's good for the kids. It's good for the family unit and it's good for us couples You wrote resentment is a toxic emotion that slowly erodes the health of our relationships It's also one of the most commonly expressed experiences. I hear from women. I work with a complex emotion resentment is anchored in bitterness rejection Lack of recognition the feeling of being taken advantage of so that might be the over functioning under functioning and envy It boils over from feelings of abandonment boundary violations and unmet expectations Resentment often stems from long-standing unmet needs which can happen if someone has expressed what they need Or the partner hasn't met their need or isn't capable of doing so So You say the thing about resentment is when you keep trying to fix things you are by your own choice Doing something that contributes to your anger. There's a lot there. I was like, oh, there are a lot of things that can lead to resentment It's often Here's the thing about resentment and we do this because it's an adaptive strategy We look outwards. Well, if they changed if they didn't just make sausages if I didn't have to pack the diaper bag Then I wouldn't feel resentful and Resentment and I speak from this From a place of doing my own work Also the work with my clients and this is a really hard thing for us to have to sit in it often starts with ourselves We have to do something different for ourselves if your partner if your husband does not give you 20 minutes when they get home or whatever that looks like You insist on it. You say, hey, I'm leaving I'm taking my 20 minutes now and then you go to them the next day and you say I just want to let you know that every time you come home I need those 20 minutes and I'm going to take them the next day But if we wait for it if we wait for a right time, it's never going to happen I remember the moment something shifted for me and it was a lot I was going to say allowing but that sounds strange. It was facilitating My husband taking my daughter so my second to a doctor's appointment And was it my second or my first? I think it was my second and I he had said, okay What do I need for the diaper bag and I said? I know you've got this I trust you you'll do great And I left it. I didn't run around the house packing all the things. I didn't grab extra snacks I didn't grab the extra shaky toys because you know Well, you didn't even you didn't even tell him what should go in there No, not only did you not get it, but you also gave no information Right And so when he came back He said Well, as usual the doctor was running late said, yeah, oh, that's so hard How'd you guys do? Oh, I did not have enough snacks to get through that Oh my gosh, I know it's not the worst when that happens and he's like and I probably should have packed a few things to keep us occupied Yep And you know She was fine And so is he and he learned what to pack in the diaper bag and I no longer had to keep doing it And there's this uncomfortable truth in here. My daughter wasn't going to be harmed She's not going to starve from not having enough snacks or all the things they could have gone to a A vending machine or something down the street. They they would have been fine But it's the opportunity for him to up learn What I had already learned because that's the truth, jinny, right? We learned it along the way too Yeah, yeah Totally we learn it from doing it as well Like I mean, I would start to take when we were getting outside all the time, right? So like when our kids were younger I would even bring an extra pair of flip flops for every kid because often they would like break their shoe Or their shoe gets stuck in the mud. We can't get it out, you know So you you learn in time like oh, I wish I would have had this now You know now I do so the book is called I didn't sign up for this You also have the book you your husband and his mother great fantastic books lots of tools to help One of the things that is new ish So obviously there's you know, always been relationship Issues easy to fall in love biologically normal to fall in love, you know a lot harder to to keep it going Our our phones and screens and this comes up in the book several times And in a way that it's it's like heart wrenching It's like a knife to your heart and you're like you you just picture yourself in that situation You've been in that situation. You've seen other people be in that situation So you got the situation where Greg's watching television and you're like, uh, I'm wiping down the counter We've got a toddler. I'm trying to finish up this meal And and he's just oblivious and you say I need help and he says I am helping But how can you be helping, you know, and so it's that It's the television sort of numbing out situation in the home And it's also the phone situation which is in and out of the home where you're kind of stuck where you're like, are they are they working? Are they not working and then like, you know, how many times can you say? What are you doing on your phone? What are you doing on your phone before you feel like you are the mom? You know of like a 12 year old being like, what do you need to be doing that on your phone? Do you have to be checking the sports course? Do they really matter? What if you check them after the game was over like, you know, I think This is something that's really hard in this day and age and you talked about another story where it's like the kid Fault, you know, you're at the park You're there, but you're not together you used a word a phrase for that parallel play parallel play conscious uncoupling in different roommates who lead parallel lives Yeah, it's so I Where do I want to go with this? I have like a hundred different like things floating over me right here. I Remember having someone who read the book say that their Husband had read it and they got to the desire and intimacy piece In the book and then they pull the book down look their partner and they're like, oh I get it Oh, I actually get it now And surprisingly, jinny, I wrote this book as my main audience for women Men were picking it up. They still are they still send me messages. They come to me saying, okay, I get it It's good because all of these micro moments Lead her to feel unseen and disconnected and If you are not paying attention attention A lot, you know, we've got this negative connotation to the word attention Because I think a lot of us who grew up in the 80s and 90s were told don't be attention seeker And you don't want to get all this attention and actually attention is a core need our children need attention And even through adulthood we continue to need attention from those we love and care about Attention is so important. And so if you walk into a room and your partner doesn't put down their phone and light up to see you Then it falls flat for you. You don't feel connection You don't feel seen but then they come to you later and say hey, do you want to and you're like well We didn't have any kind of connection throughout the day So how do I feel close to you then? And it's about realizing that we are getting all of this short term dopamine from our phones. It's easy There's no discomfort from it. You don't like something you leave a nasty comment or you swipe on right that that feels good, right? So it's easy. There's no discomfort And it's short acting because when we actually sit in discomfort and tension And vulnerability with our partners, that's the opportunity to feel something different That's long lasting chemicals in your brain where you feel good. I can remember one couple I had said Listen, I know you guys have young kids I want you to stay up late tonight and do a little bit of a date night Doesn't have to be big just something that's prioritizing each other and they came back the next time and said We retired the next day, but it didn't matter because we felt connected And that is gold that is that's what we want more of But what we need to then understand is because we have this machine in our hands We now have to create structure over that machine What does it mean to have a no phone access time at a certain point in your in your night? Is it between five to seven? Are there rules where there's no devices at the table? Um, I remember we had our television on our main floor. This was back in 2015 So phones were a little bit different But then our toddler was was watching the news as we would have it on the background and we're like, oh no So we then took it into another level of the house And now we don't have it on our main floor and that allows us to not have background distraction or noise on That's not really pulling for connection Yeah, so it's it's just this willingness to Not blame each other because I know what comes up here is it's like you're always on your phone And then the other person's like, well, I wouldn't be on my phone so much if you weren't on yours No, no, no, let's just do it as a we it's not you versus me It's us against the problem and the problem is we don't feel close The problem is we no longer touch each other Our phones are touched more than we touch each other So how do we then put it in a box leave it at the door? And connect together I mean, I think you have to have a lot of these boundaries built in because this is such a common problem You wrote sunday is our only to date together as a family and I feel a lot of pressure to make the most of it Greg doesn't seem to feel that pressure though. He's sitting on a park bench staring intently at his phone Instead of the warm fulfillment. I hoped for from this family day at the park I feel irritated by him being here because he is there but yet not truly present How many of us can relate to that experience that your partner is there with you but not present? Yeah, these are like critical conversations to be having but I think they're really hard to have And I I guess I think one of the things that I struggle with And I see and you kind of see it through your in your book Is that it often feels like Maybe there's a reason for this but it often feels like it's like the the woman who has to be like, all right What are we gonna be do about our phones? Well, you know like who has to kind of bear the brunt of Of making the uncomfortable ask for change Not all but many and and I I will Full like I'll say that more women show up in my therapy room Then men do They do buy the self-help books they do download the apps that are going to do something different They're going to join the programs. They want to feel something different and it is incredibly challenging because it does ask the question Well, where's your partner and I say to people you have two choices You can be resentful that you have to do this and I get that and or rather or You can ask yourself what's meaningful to me and when I put my head on my pillow at the end of the day Do I want to be able to say that I made meaningful choices today that are aligned with my values and with what truly matters? And if the answer is that Then read the book do the program initiate these things because you are also part of the change And I and hey like I I will sit with every woman and say I hear you. I'm angry. It's not fair. I get it I don't agree with this and I can't change all of the systems, but I can support you right here. That's the only power I have and you have choice to do that It's good. I mean you said in the book and I was like taking it back by it Actually, you say it only takes one person to change your relationship dynamic And I feel like everyone else says no it takes two to tango and I was like, oh, no, that's really empowering What what is within your control in your relationship? Like you said earlier when you get home I'm going to take this 20 minutes and in 20 minutes can do a lot for you If you've got little kids 20 minutes feels like an eternity Doesn't it you know, it's in stages of life. It makes a huge difference. So what is within your control in the relationship? Okay, so another thing that you talk about is acknowledgement. So this is another tricky thing I think that often changes with children. I mean, I felt like this, you know, I like you especially if One spouse stops working right because then like well, no one's going to pick you for employee of the month because you're not an employee so you'd say Ashley She says who is telling me that I'm doing a good job He's more interested in the football score on his phone. Ashley's frenzy of activity goes completely unnoticed Acknowledgement. I've never heard anybody say this acknowledgement should be a basic part of our relationship It's relationships, especially when we notice our partner making significant efforts or putting aside their needs for our own I've never read that and I don't think people are really doing it It Greg Greg's my husband Greg and I have even talked about this and how He at some point had to come to this aha moment and and say to me I'm so sorry. I didn't know that acknowledgement And recognition were a foundational piece in relationships. He's like, I know I've spent a long time not recognizing you And I think I just took it for granted. I thought that it was just something that was inherent implicit in our relationship and We lose that from our early days, right the beginning of our relationship. We we say, thank you so much for texting me or um A special token of some sort or the hug saying, you know, this is such important time together You know, I'm so glad we're in this together that That is everything and if you are in one of those seasons where you're thinking It's I'm thinking of the listener if you're in that season where it's like everything is on me I'm so resentful And it feels hard to find something that you appreciate about your partner you go into something really small but also specific Thank you for being a safe person with our children You know that that's huge. Thank you for that glass of water Or I know we're going to get through this season together and I'm so glad it's us doing it Like I I want to do this with you and and doing that repeatedly multiple times a day It's not fake. It's intentional And it's allowing the other person to see your heart in a way And also so that they know they're significant It would maybe help too with like the cpe thing that we brought up at the beginning conceptualized plan and execute because like I think the the gist of the book and and maybe the majority That's not all but the majority would be like the woman who is home with kids or who is juggling career and kids And feels unseen. So it's like oh if someone would say thanks for contacting all the soccer moms to figure out what team everyone You know, thanks for figuring out what's going on with the snack It just happens you to be able to see more What's actually going on? Okay, so that's good. Acknowledgement should be a basic part of I'll add something really tangible for listeners to do with this one Stack stack acknowledgement with something else. So if you are about to pick up your phone and text your partner Hey, do you are you doing pick up or am I or who's got lunches today? Before you go into the logistical request First pause to express something that you appreciate about that person or that what they did that day That's one idea or the other idea is as you pour coffee in the morning Or as you're brushing your teeth think of something that you do every single day And then stack that with appreciation leave a note for your partner a little sticky note put it in their lunch Put in their wallet On the bathroom mirror just something like that. Those are small Intentional pieces and I talk a lot about the roommate stage and helping people get out of this roommate season Feeling like two ships passing in the night and it is about shifting out of this autopilot mode into Intentionality. Yeah It's a really a huge statement Tracy Acknowledgement should be a basic part of our relationships never heard anyone say it never considered it and it's a really big deal I think it's so easy to not acknowledge and there's so many things because of the conceptualized plan Execute there's so many things that are going on every single day in the household That we could be acknowledging. Okay. How about this one? This is another thing that can become tricky We definitely experienced this so I stayed home with kids my husband traveled for work We eventually had to be like I did I was like you cannot send me your food pictures from your work trip I can't I can't deal like I'm laughing because I was in this group text yesterday where he sent A picture of the meal. He was away. Sorry. It's so hard I mean I was with a friend recently and she's got young kids and like the husband did that and I was a kid I don't I mean I don't think you should be sending that photo because you're home. You're basically dying You know, you got all these kids all these needs you've eaten nothing You haven't drank anything you're dehydrated and then you haven't slept Yeah, and then you get a picture of like the lobster, you know the the shrimp tower I mean they're at like a fancy dinner. I mean my husband would go to dinner sometimes that costs like $4,000 That's probably an exaggeration But I'll be like there's 20 clients there and we got every single blah blah and many sending me pictures and I was like Sorry, I can't see it The picture yesterday was a lobster eggs benedict so I just can't stop chuckling they used lobster because it's like And here I am eating here's the perfect analogy. It wasn't my husband who sent the picture Here I am though because here's the perfect snapshot of it eating the leftover crust of the grilled cheese from my kids And I remember one of my fellow moms that said like why is it that that leftover grilled cheese crust tastes so good? Not moms. We don't need to eat that. I like make the whole grilled cheese for yourself Well, yeah, okay, and then here's the step further then they're complaining about it I know So you use the word infuriating so you're like, oh and then they're like, you know, so you're they get to sleep in a hotel Through the night. There's no babies waking up. There's no baby monitor. You know, they get all their meals paid for They're with adults. They're on a plane. They get to watch the delta movie, you know, and then they're like, uh Then they're complaining. I should contextualize this for for listeners My husband had these once a year all-inclusive golf trips And he really hated being away from the family I would always be like, oh my sympathy is so low for you. I have no empathy for you and you're right, right? Yes So, okay, can you give us a little bit of I mean, I I don't know if that's good advice or bad advice But it did help for me to not see the meals Oh You know, here's here's something where my husband and I differ on is I say I don't need you to check in on me The the worst thing you can do is to send me a text saying hi love. How's everyone doing there? Because guess what? We're not doing great. I am surviving never It's never good And I I do not have capacity To tell you how things are going So if you want to send and this was a really interesting thing that we had to break open in our relationship because Why are they sending the message and are they considering? So why does your husband send the photo food? Why is my husband saying hey, how's everyone doing there? It's because they're struggling with something inside themselves But true connection in a relationship is first putting yourself in their space. How's my partner doing? And it would be so much more powerful if you sent your partner a text and said love I know you're in the thick of it. I want you to know I'm so glad that I can leave like this and know that you have the kids and I also know this is hard for you And I can't wait to get home and give you those, you know, two hours of pure solo quiet time But just know i'm thinking of you That right there is the most powerful thing your partner could do for you. We don't want to see your food I love you because it's infuriating You know because you're like yeah every in every instance you're eating at someone else's bit of chicken nugget And that's what you had, you know Yeah, so it is about I think being able to put yourself in someone else's position Which is what a lot of this is right? Like if you're on your phone and you're at the park with your family What is that like for everyone else? You know if you make sausages for dinner What does that experience like for everyone else? So I don't know I guess it goes back to like the empathy piece in general empathy is down When when you have young children that was a common thing that showed up in my community a lot is people would say Why do I have so much empathy for my kids? But I have nothing for my husband and that's where we speak about expectations Because we expect our partner to just have it together We expect our partner to level up to where we are or we expect them to just know what we need And it is about sometimes looking at our own expectations. Yeah You talking about play which is great. All right, we're heading into 2026. Maybe you're going to be outside You can incorporate this into your relationship plays what keeps your relationship alive It allows us to know different parts of each other make new memories rekindle intimacy that can get lost in the daily routine With play there is a renewed connection where evaluation and judgment are gone However, this isn't easy for couples in distress because having fun with the partner requires trust in ease So just something to think about you talk about bids for connection. I don't want to I don't want to wrap up without talking about the mother-in-law story so Because you have a book about mother-in-laws It was almost like an easter egg in my first book giving li-lidia and sam's story because jinny, I think the really cool thing is I knew this was going to be my second book It's a li-lidia You say men typically take longer than women to separate from their families particularly their mothers. Can you talk about the first bath story? The first bath story. Yes Do you know what i'm talking about? The first bath story is where I had had an unplanned cesarean and I just want to pause and say that If there is any mother who feels like they did not have a real birth Chokes me up a little bit knowing how far I sunk down after having an unplanned cesarean because I was the mom who planned completely for the unmedicated birth and at nine centimeters my water broke and we found a bomb so my My first was frank breach and in order for a safe delivery. I chose for a cesarean and I remember spending weeks in this shame spiral of I my body duped me. How could I not know what kind of mother am I? But I didn't even know that my child was upside down I had to work through a lot of shame around that so we were quite vulnerable after having this unexpected birth And so my mother-in-law did come to stay with us for a few days and I remember giving my son his first bath and As we were finishing up the bath. I couldn't find the towel and my mother-in-law had it and so she then Picked it up my son from the bath and I looked at my husband And he didn't say anything and also too when I look back at that I look back at this first time mom who I just had her world turned upside down. I didn't have a voice How could I have had a voice after a traumatic surgery and birth and it took me a long time to even put that word to that So that was the first bath where I looked over at my husband And he was a deer in the headlights and said nothing and I felt so completely abandoned And it was also the starting point to where I learned to set boundaries and I learned to vocalize my needs because this is what we do in families, jinny We are going to bump up against expectations and wishes And healthy families can come through boundary setting by recognizing that anytime That someone expresses something it is about finding a better way to relate to each other Yeah, it's good. It's good. So people can read about that here. You're at the ending of the first bath felt literally stolen from my arms Searching for words but coming up empty I glanced over at my husband and begged him with my drop jaw and wide eyes To step in to ask his mother to pass our son back to me Instead he looked across the dining room table with a deer in the headlights look My eye started to fill up as my mother-in-law could continue to coo in my son's ear And you know, those are moments that you can't redo There's a lot there. There's a lot there for warned is not forearmed So these are good things to be talking about have conversations about at the beginning I mean my midwife is pretty clear like No one really should be holding your baby much in those first three weeks Like the baby you should be naked in your bed with your baby on your chest So that everyone feels awkward and they're only going to come in and say hi to you for like four seconds And then they have to leave you put the sign on the door That's like you're allowed to be here for 15 minutes tops if you want to stay longer than do chores I mean, it's basically like that and that for the first couple weeks and so there there's boundaries there But I like I didn't meet my midwife until kid number three And you know people just don't know that you don't know what it's going to be like and and everybody is showing up To this rule for the first time. Yes. I have so much compassion also for my mother-in-law in that moment This was her first grandson. She had never Grandparent date alongside her son and daughter-in-law in this moment Those are all learning points for all of us And it really is Such a cultural shift. I think which is really what Naming my second book is all about and giving voice to the painful stories that daughters-in-law for decades have experienced is that Women are not seen for their own needs and respected for that But instead they are made out to be the bad guys. They're scapegoated And they're seen as the problem to these old outdated family systems And it is about Recognizing a family system that's in play and then being able to stand firmly in your own Vault because that's what's in my second book is my vault method And being able to then be a solid couple Not to abandon family not to exclude them But to be a strong marriage because your kids need that from you And then to be able to say this is what works best for us And holy my word, jenny I have spent so many years advocating for mothers To create that postpartum experience in the way that they needed to be a connected team to do it Because I have heard story after story after story of a daughter-in-law wanting to have no visitors at the hospital And then there's this huge uproar most times from mother-in-law Or they wanted no visitors And and I actually think of this one story of this woman that I worked with And she had so much grief And also vitriol towards her daughter-in-law because this daughter-in-law wanted several weeks of just bonding with their new daughter And this grandmother Was so angry about it. And I had said to her I said listen I know there's pain here You had this desire and expectation of what it would mean to bond with your granddaughter and I get it And at the same time your granddaughter is now six months seven months old And you have a choice you can stay in your anger and hurt And you are only creating more separation and divide and not building a beautiful bond with that little girl Or you carry your hurt with you, but you don't let it direct you And you go and you bond and you go and you get to know your daughter-in-law for the person that she is And you go and you bond with that baby But above all you respect those parents And that's how you include and create this family moving forward It was hard and that's hard work and that For me, Jenny, I think there is no other book For daughters-in-law right now about how to deal with your in-laws And it's a complex system and I also have seen so many couples come out of this in a much better way We don't want to go to estrangement and no contact. We want families to stay connected. Yeah It's really good And and because like that the first three weeks like that's what my midwife would suggest It's amazing the baby should be on the mom's chest for three weeks She says you're in the the first week you lay in the bed the second week you sit in the bed And the third week you're allowed to move around the room That's your love and everybody serves you and brings you food and they come in and they see the baby But they don't get in the baby's face and that's what's healthy and instead what we see is that the you actually said it in your book You said if you looked back at the pictures You said something about like if you look back at the pictures of that time What you see is everyone else holding your baby while you're sitting in your room You know trying to recover from this major surgery and that's not really what it's supposed to be These are really big things forewarned is not forearmed. We have to at least be forewarned though Otherwise, I mean you're you're just throwing into such a hard spot. So both books can be so helpful I want to read two last things and then I got a final question for you. You wrote time for themselves is what many of my clients need Hmm, that's huge And then you had this quote from glennon doil you say being human is filled with doing difficult and challenging things and glennon doil Doing the hard things is exactly what we need to practice We need to get uncomfortable as many times as we can We need to speak up when everything inside us begs us to stay hidden We need to take risks when it feels like no one will even notice We need to ride the wave of discomfort or the urges that don't align with what is meaningful to us Big shifts don't happen because we think about them. They happen when we take a step in a new direction What a book tracy it's called. I didn't sign up for this a couple's therapists shares real life stories of breaking patterns and finding enjoying relationships including your own I mean it's for couples, but I mean there's a lot in there that you can learn about relationships in general Then you have the new one which i'm reading behind you is you your husband and his mother Fantastic tools and resources for any family. We always end our show with the same question What's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside? Oh my goodness outside would be supporting my dad building his Shelby cobra and I have so many memories of being in the driveway of Sitting in the car when it was just the bot like without the body on it um of being a young passenger in it It's um, it's one of the best things and then being at car races and things like that. So that's a fond building point Yeah, what an experience. Do you know no one's ever said that? Yeah, I love that really fairly unique what people say no one has ever said that I love that. I mean, I was thinking of all the the memories we have of swimming in the pool or eating beans from the garden or Um, but that one is such a core memory Ah, well fantastic books. I'm so grateful that I read them. They're very very helpful for me. Thank you so much for being here Oh my gosh, jinny I have not actually had a podcast episode about only about my first book In probably a good year and a half So I have chills because I'm like What did I even write in that book and I literally said to my husband two weeks ago? I said, you know, I think I should go back and listen to my first book again Because I think there's some like banger quotes in there That I need to like pull back. So thank you like this. Oh, this was a guess. Thank you, jinny Thank you so much for spending this time with me today If this episode stuck with you, would you share it with someone you care about? These conversations don't spread because of algorithms They spread because someone thought hey, you might need this and send to link And if you've never left a review for the show, I would love one It doesn't have to be long a send in to two really does matter I read them they're super encouraging and they help the right people find this message If you want a simple next step after today grab the free 2026 tracker sheets and 1000 hours outside.com slash trackers Or join us in the 1000 hours outside app on ios and android to track your time outside and build momentum in a screen-heavy world And as you head out, you'll hear that song again It's a beautiful world by in paradise featuring our daughters who also make music as two better friends Go follow them if you want something happy playing in your kitchen. I'm so glad you're here until next time may you find extraordinary moments on ordinary paths Get outside open your eyes feel that sunshine kissing your skin throw your worries out to the wind Mmm Climb some trees skin your knees feel that grass on your feet again Get out there and take it in Oh Ain't nothing on screen that's ever gonna be this view Oh Oh It's beautiful Such a beautiful world