I think Saudi has the attention of the world in culture and sports and health and things that the world never thought we would be leading in. After 9-11 Saudi had to do this huge PR campaign to kind of build themselves. And I think that is even more important by voices like yours coming out into the North American market because people need to hear from you. Find me a country that does entertainment the way G are doing it. Find me a country where their Ministry of Sports equivalent has hosted 200 global sports events in the last four and a half years. If we're not evolving and changing, we're dying. So it's not just supplements you take. It is the media you consume, it's people you surround yourself with. It's the rooms that you put yourself in. It's the energy that you exchange with somebody. And if that's not changing you, lifting you, challenging you, then what are you doing here? Mama the slum. The Joe Rogan of the Middle East. Welcome to Biohacket. You know that's how I describe you, right? That's how I pinched you to everybody. I mean, I think you're seeing my praises far greater than they should be. I'll take it today and honestly thank you for having me on. I want to ask you, curiosity heals. Where did you get that from? Oh, we're swapping podcasting. Curiosity heals. So I'll give you the short version. I got into health in all this three years ago because my mom died of turbo cancer. So sorry to hear that. And that grief because I only had seven days between her dying, me burying her and going back to work. The reason I am where I am today is because I was always curious. And so I went from building brands in luxury to building brands in health and wellness. And it was my curiosity to find answers that did not heal her that led me to building the agency into what it is today and starting Biohacket to have conversations to ask people deep meaningful questions where I could take that knowledge and go heal somebody else's family. And help them find answers that I couldn't receive. It's a beautiful era for us to be alive and where we can tap into information and any kind of niche subject you're looking for. I use the example of bird watching. If I wanted to figure out what kind of specific bird watching community is available in Southern India for example or Pakistan. That content may well be available online. So what a time to be alive. I'll stop pretending to be the host. No, no. You can be. Do you want to do a swap right now? Tomorrow. Tomorrow. I was so inspired when I discovered your platform. I think it was like about 18 months ago I came across your show. And I just love the fact that you were Saudi born and bred. You know, spent your time between Jada and the UK and were amplifying in English, Saudi voices to the world. What inspired your journey? Being misconstrued, living in the UK and the US and my friends over there and my extended circle being shocked that I'm from Saudi Arabia. Maybe the way I spoke, the way I looked, the color of my eyes. There was a lot of really, are you from there? I'd say yeah. Why? Well, you know, we didn't expect people to look like that from where you are. We're think like how you do. I mean, it was just, it came across as a bit juggie. What did you expect us to look like? You know, there are people who live in Saudi Arabia and from Saudi Arabia who are far blunder than I am. Who have colored eyes way more colorful than I am. So I think, you know, us being misunderstood and misconstrued for the longest time, may gave me that aha moment when watching Rogan. Thinking that, you know, I've been patriotic all my life. Whenever I go back to school in the UK or the US, I'm taking Saudi jerseys with me and I'm giving it to all my dorm mates over there. One time I went back with 20 Shahourmas and I gave each one and they loved it. You know, they were like, my god, your food is so tasty. Can you, you know, can you create more? It's amazing. Yeah. So, so I think, you know, there was an opportunity to amplify that message in a way that just allowed me more importantly, and I want to underline this to be me. 13 years, corporate wasn't me at all. So the podcast has allowed me to come back to baseline with my true identity in a way that I would like to think serves my country. Serves myself in allowing myself to be me and to have conversations with people that if it wasn't for the podcast, I wouldn't be sitting in this chair today. I love that Saudi has gone to such a huge transition under, you know, his Royal Highness, MBS in the last five years. Being a Saudi watching this momentum, how the country is evolving and changing. People are coming in. People are starting to move here. They're so inspired to live here. How is that journey being for you? I see a little bit of myself in my country. Borderline failed every school. I went to written off. You know, is he, you know, really going to make anything of his life? And 80s, 90s and 2000s, Saudi was in the quiet zone, let's say. And then came 2015, 2016 when the vision was being worked on. And MBS in 2017 became Crown Prince and the vision was born. Early days people didn't understand it. We knew that the time for us to compete with the world is here. And as they say, you know, it's always top down. And fast forward to, you know, 2025, I think Saudi has the attention of the world in culture and sports, in health, and in things that I go back to, you know, written off in things that the world never thought we would be leading it. Find me a country that doesn't attain me the way G are doing it. Find me a country where their Ministry of Sports equivalent has hosted 200 global sports events in the last four and a half years. Culturally speaking, Ministry of Culture with what they're doing. It's almost unbelievable when you look at the cylinders that every ministry is firing on. Now, okay, you know, it's great to open up to the world and bring people here. But when they come here, what is there to do? That's another beast altogether. So to answer your question, what do I think when I look at it, I don't recognize my country. At the same time, I'm so proud of it. And just how I sometimes don't recognize myself and I'm almost in denial that, wow, I may have built this platform. That people are actually saying that, you know, this is something that is kind of amazing what you did. I sometimes forget about it. So it's just, it's, it's a lot of emotions. I can tear up just thinking about how far the country has come. And I think we're just lucky to be alive in this era right now where whatever you're into, whatever you're good at, you will get the support of the country from the top. Was it really difficult leaving something corporate oil and gas working in that and being like, I'm going to start a podcast in English coming out of the Middle East. How did your wife feel about it? She knew it was, it was me. She knew that I have found my calling well before I started the first episode. I think the one thing that maybe not my wife, but the people closest to me probably thought was, how long is he going to do it for? People also thought, is he going to end up in jail? Right. So there is that element of, you know, you can't just go start something and, and, and you know, be very vocal about it. But I knew my mission. I knew that, you know, there was a gap in the market from the man on the street, that Joe Rogan, to, to, to talk about Saudi from that level where I'm at, you know, the, the foot soldiers of, you know, that, that's a, the community. So I saw the gap in the market and I, and I realized that, you know, if, if I am consistent in this, which I'm currently enjoying a few episodes in, this can potentially be, you know, a source of soft power for the kingdom. Because the other legibers in the Princess Rima will always have to maintain a tone in their messaging. You know, they, they can say stuff like, excuse me, WTA, you don't want to come to Saudi Arabia to have a tennis tournament for females because you're accusing us of not empowering females. But you're not coming here is you in turn accusing us of something that we aren't doing. Exactly. So I can say things like that. And, and I think that's where maybe the platform can, can really flex its need in, in, in culture and society. Right. How did you define your earlier voice versus who you are today from the early episodes from when you started the most show to where your voice was gone today? I had no confidence early episodes. I can relate to that. I was the same when I first started. I was like, what am I doing? What am I doing? I think one of my production guys, the other day mentioned, and he joined us 10 episodes ago and he watched episode one and two. And he said he was shocked by just my body language alone. I was like, I was like this. I think maybe more importantly, it made me a confident, a more confident person in life. Maybe much to, to, to, to this may to some of the people who preferred me as a people pleasing person. But I think boundaries is, is very important, right? Having thicker skin, getting comments like, are you really Saudi, why English, speak in Arabic, should be proud of your? So I think those comments, which I used to respond to back in the day, I don't check today. So if the podcast stopped today, and I never did another episode, I'm a more confident person than I was five years ago. Absolutely. But I don't want to stop today. I think there's so much more we can do in terms of getting the content out there, hosting people like Gary Brecker and Mark Hammond as we did an hour ago, where without this platform, I don't know which Saudi platform these guys would have gone on. Absolutely. So there was a, there was a need for it, right? When I do these people's PR and marketing, right? And I was bringing them down here. I was like, man, it's really tough to find English speaking platforms to put them on. They're not going to learn Arabic, right? So what am I going to do? So platforms like yours are so refreshing because they allow the North American audience to really get educated on a culture that Western media has built decades just destroying and abolishing. So when they truly get to meet real authentic Arabs and people from the Middle East, they're like, wow, it's not what we were so refreshing. Let's hear their ideas. Let's hear how they speak. Let's see, hear how progressive they are. And it allows people from North America to come on to platforms like yours and tell their story and what they've done to their audience. So Gary Vee was an example of someone who, when I had him on a year ago, exactly, I was, I had a bit of a pinch me moment, a bit of a, oh my God, because I was thinking to myself that if, you know, if we didn't create this, Gary wouldn't have been able to go on a platform where we can for a change own narrative. Absolutely. And we had a short with Will Smith and Martin Lawrence. And at the end, Will was like, you do this full time. I was like, I've been doing it for five years. He's like, this is an amazing thing you have going. This is coming from Will Smith, right? Will Ahmed as well, the founder of Oop, Oop, that was, you know, again, amazing to have people come to Saudi, experience it and then reflect on the experience on the podcast. A lot of people still say why English, why English? And I say, I think, can we drop the why English? Can we maybe start exploring languages like French and Spanish to come out of Saudi? Yeah. So we can, you know, educate those markets who have been indoctrinated with false information, thanks to Western media, who never had our best interest in heart for whatever reason. You know, from 2001 onwards, we were dubbed as terrorists. The things, we couldn't be anything further away in terms of safety, security, the genuine niceness, the hospitality that runs through our blood, is the complete opposite depiction of, you know, how we have been portrayed. So, you know what, it's almost like if it was, if it was true, I wouldn't be so passionate about it. But can you stop accusing us of something that we are absolutely not and by virtue of the existence of this platform, I think we saw for that. Have you seen the 9-11 documentary that Tucker Carlson just released? I saw the trailers. I mean, money together. I'm going to, I'm going to send it to you. Please, please. It was so incredible because I, we for once saw somebody completely tell a transparent narrative about how Saudi was just pinned for something when it wasn't just, you know, it wasn't down to them. There were so many other factors, including foreign governments, including the American CIA that was involved in what happened to American lives on American soil, and how they turned a blind eye. And it was really refreshing because I'm like, for once, we are not demonizing the Middle East for something that happened in our own country. Thank you. I mean, two buildings for awful, awful tragedy, and everything turns to rubble, but somehow they found 15 or the 19 hijackers passports. I didn't think we're going to get political, but let's just, you know, let me just go there. But you know what's really frustrating is, is that people believe that. And I think now whenever there's a post on Instagram, I'm not going to tell you what I read in the comments, but it's all consistent. Oh, absolutely. What's also crazy was when you watch the documentary, you'll see that 18 months prior to 9-11 actually taking place, the American CIA knew, and they turned a blind eye, and they turned a blind eye because they had other vested interests. And just before we started the podcast, you and I spoke about, and I'll probably get, you know, shot for this, but I don't believe everybody necessarily needs democracy. They're incredible countries. You live in one in the Middle East that is a thriving, booming country, and there's not democracy, because not everybody's equipped for it. It's interesting. I think it's a mental capacity, you know, type of thing. And the environment that Abbas, MRCEO said it recently, he said, Now, when you have a government that changes every four years the amount of money that is being spent on the campaign, the amount of money that is being spent on things that are deterring you from building, constructing, improving, And then in that clip, you know, there were images of his country to buy in healthcare and construction and wellness and transportation. And I don't know, to be honest, like I arrived in JFK four months ago, four months ago, four years ago, it was 2021. And just the drive, you know, coming out through Jamaica and on that highway, I was, maybe my eyes were trained to the Middle East. I was like, there's no way this is the Northeast. I spent five of my years living in. It has, it has not changed or has my eyes been trained to actually get used to first world. Because this isn't it. Yeah. The amount of crime, the amount of corruption, the amount of just, just trash on the street. I'm like, that is what we consider a first world country. And then I go to somewhere like the Biden, I'm so excited to be taking my team next week. You can literally eat off the floor. And I said, they are, they aren't demonizing us, calling this dictatorships and saying that we are not invested in our people. Whereas these countries are thriving. And people have great access to healthcare, great education, clean water, so much that goes into being in service to their people. And I think that is after 9-11, Saudi had to do this huge PR campaign to kind of build themselves. And I think that is even more important why voices like yours are coming out into the North American market because people need to hear from you. They need to hear how Saudis change and how you guys are so, so proud of your country and what you guys have accomplished. You know, what I realized entering the media world, all of a sudden, the media was about people ask me, Moj, you got to go to the Ministry of Media and get this approved and that approved. I was like, you know what you're forgiven for thinking that I have to do that. But you'd be surprised how comfortable Saudi media world is in their own skin. Yeah. When I, if there was something a bit iffy that I thought my guests said, I sent it to them for proof that like, Mo, Mo, are you kidding me? Like go for it. We're not, we're not shaken by by what the others might perceive us to be. Absolutely. It actually taught me to be a bit more confident in my messaging and the way I carry myself on, on air. If you are taking protein powder, you definitely need to hear this. The Clean Label Project tested 160 different proteins from different vendors and brands across the US. 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My personal favorite flavor is a verborin vanilla, no artificial flavors, and no funky aftertaste. To make sure your daily protein powder is not hiding any nasty chemicals and they're not being open and transparent with you. So if you want something clean, delicious, and bioavailable with transparency, go now to get this amazing discount. PURI.com. Puree.com slash biohacket. Switch over to purees PW1 protein. And you can thank me later. When I was researching you, I saw one of your clips you were describing how you got access to go to the world court, and what a big moment for you that was. How did this guy have felt about it? Look at you. You are going to make me cry. So that's me and where did you get that from? I have a good team, man. That's so incredible. Yeah, that is awesome. Would this guy ever thought he'd be invited by the crown prince? No, no. The guy on my right or my left, my father, who passed away 20 years ago, would, when he passed away, I was failing every school that I went into. And he told my older brother, just make sure Moe finishes university, just make sure he does that on his deathbed, his deathbed wish. And my sisters tell me all the time on big moments, like Baba would have been proud of you because he wouldn't have seen this shit coming. So, Moe, I don't care so much what the young boy would have thought. I care more about how my dad would have felt about what I did. Yeah. Because that's the person I looked up to most. You know, it's really beautiful to hear you say that. My father passed away a few years ago as well. And I was just telling my cousins today because a lot of my families here supporting me, I said, I was wonder if they were here. Would they see us become these media personalities and be like, what? What would we have thought and what would they become? And for him, as a Saudi must, it means such a proud moment for him watching you from above, saying, my son got invited to go to the World Court to be with the Crown Prince because of his talent of taking Saudi voices to the world. So my mom's brother is my uncles, we call them Marhalos. They tell me all the time, you know, the apple didn't fall far from the tree. I said, how so? Yeah. He said, your dad worked in the Jidda Chamber of Commerce. Your dad for 25 years was the spokesperson. He was VP at Saudi Airlines. Spokesperson for the airline. That the airline held onto him so much, it was almost like a tug of war. Government wanted him for an ambassador role. And Saudi Airlines were like, you know, Saudi Islam is kind of ours. So when they see that, you know, I do what I do today, they're like, by the way, you're dad in this world would have probably been a podcaster as well. Because of how eloquent he was with, you know, with the way he carried himself and his ability to deliver words in his speech. So I never thought that, you know, our careers would like almost match, but it's so funny that they kind of did today. Sometimes we finish off our parents unfinished desires. We are their legacy. And I think for him, you are his legacy. The work that you're doing today on the show, the way you're promoting these voices, is his unfinished legacy. That you're able to carry on after his death. That's a really sweet thing to say. I think he had a third of his life left to live. He died at 63. You know, and unfortunately he was addicted to cigarettes to the tune of two packs a day from the age of 15. And that caught up with him. Of course. And maybe that's a lesson, you know, for all of us to, you know, quit what is not serving you. Serving you. Whatever, whatever on earth it is. And I think making him proud and continuing his legacy is something that continuing his legacy part is something that I never thought of and I appreciate you bringing that to my side. It's the pride that we will always internally wear. I think sometimes our why has so much deeper to do with not only making our parents proud, but how we see heritage and lineage in our life. And for me, being who I am and every day wake up and step into the world, it's like I want to do things that leave both my parents the past way now. I can leave them a little bit more prouder than the day before. Yeah, it's down to us. And you know what, you might not all the tools are available for us at our fingertips. Absolutely. The knowledge is out there. I think the educational landscape, I think the schooling system is completely flawed, but I think in terms of education, it's all out there and free. Absolutely. The question is, do you want to allocate time to learn or do you want to make excuses? I always say you're making one of two things, excuses or progress. Out of all the guests that you sat down with, Maui, and you've had such incredible, you know, role family members, Gary Vee, Princess Rima, has there been one particular guest that they shared something with you in an episode and your life was forever changed with what they shared? I know that might be a tough one. But. It's a tough one. There were many, there were many. Right in the beginning of the episode with Prisab del Aziz, like three or four minutes in. I asked him, you know, what's, we started off, you know, hitting the ground running, like what's the biggest challenge in life? What do you wish you had more time for? What do you wish that, what's something that's soft about? The question was, but his answer was time. You know, time is everything. Time is, you know, how, you know, we grade the speed of our projects and our progress. Time is something we never have enough time for. Time if we have too much of it can also work against us. I think that was a nice message. A specific one. Let me sit with it for a second and I'll give it a few minutes. Yeah, whenever it comes to you. Because I think to myself, as you've had such incredibly people, not only from your own country, but, you know, the GCC from the last half come on. And really powerful names, shaping politics, policy, you know, how we see the world and how we interact with the world. And that's why I was thinking, I was like, there must be, maybe somebody came onto your show that might have shifted you on such a deep level that you're like, wow, I walked away, not only inspired, but changed forever. And you don't have to answer that now. There isn't one. I think it's the consistency of continuing to do it. I mean yesterday we dropped 163. Do you know how many, I don't think I believed I'd get to 163. Yeah. You know, so I think it's just proof to anyone if you're consistent in what you do. You find you in it along the way. You get better. It only ends one way. It's the eighth wonder of the world, continuing to do what you do, showing up when no one's watching. You know, it's the old cliche Michael Phelps saying it's what you do in the dark that makes you shine in the light. And believe me, there were days when I didn't want to go to the studio to pack it up and wires and mics because I have an 8 AM to the out the next day, I didn't want to do that. I'm doing it alone. No one's seeing lights off. But it's those moments that if you get out of it on the other side and you persevere, you do manage to get on a podcast where Gary Breckers on the other side, or Princess Rima, or the opportunity to go on someone else's podcast because you did the work when no one was watching. So I think that's a personal takeaway from the sheer accumulation of the six seasons that we've been operating in. Was there a moment for you reflecting back on it and stuff and have you thought about the legacy that you want to leave your children? Yeah. Yeah, don't let anyone define you and just don't let anyone put you in a box. Right. I would say, I would, and I tell this to my eight-year-old, let's always find out what you enjoy, what you're good at and your mother and I will empower you as far as you want. And unfortunately, I don't know if it's going to say unfortunately, but he loves his PlayStation. He's a gamer. But guess what? There's a world cup for esports and how do you do today? For sure. I was going to say. You know, more money in it than maybe the traditional job that I was at a couple of years ago. So, hey, if you want to be the best, what do they, I don't even know the name of their games, but if you want to be the best at that specific game, then we'll empower you to do that. Don't let anyone classify you and put you in that box. In that box because I was in that box for 13 years. And what box was that? It was the box of this is where you'll be and you'll, you know, this is all you'll ever be. All you'll ever be. Yeah. No one said that to me, but maybe life said that to me, maybe, you know, going through school and being in the lowest math class in terms of intelligence, which is shocking in its own right, that you're segregated based on levels of intelligence. I hope that the system is not the same as it is as it was 20 years ago, but that doesn't do much to be confident. That doesn't do much to, you know, make you less in your head about, you know, whatever God given talent you have. So that experience throughout my years and holding onto a corporate job that I didn't feel I was anything more than if it wasn't for COVID, I wouldn't have taken the leap. And where, what turning point at COVID was like, okay, the world might end tomorrow and I'm going to go through it. It was a specific moment, was a specific day. Did you have an interaction with somebody that framed that narrative? Very simple interaction, probably a month into it intensified. It was, you know, the office for two hours a day, go figure. I mean, you're either going or you're not. Yeah, exactly. And then, I think week four was, you know, complete stay at home. And a couple of days into that, it was just an aha moment where I was watching Rogan and he had Navale on the show and Navale was saying, Cuban's aren't meant to work 9 to 5 own a piece of a business and the industrial revolution is the beginning of the information revolution. And that just spoke to me and it spoke to me on a podcast and I was looking at Rogan and I was looking in the fall and I was like, I don't have a business. I work 9 to 5. I work in an industrial revolution ecosystem and he's talking on an information ecosystem. And I was like, we don't have Rogan in the Middle East. And so that seats currently empty. I hate my day job. Yeah. I know that everything I've tried, why the hell not? I'll just, I don't take a rest in my side. Yeah, it can't be any worse than it is. But they say the moment, the change happens when the fear of staying the same outweighs, the fear of change. And that's when, that's when I was like, you know what, I don't want to do this for another 13 years in a system where I felt so replaceable. So that was the, let's do it. I don't care. It was never part of my plan to speak into the camera. I said, I will never speak into the camera. You did? Hey guys, we're doing this today. I did it for Zenoz three times. And I think I started my first one six months ago. Never say never. We change, right? Gary just said in 84 days, your, I'm going to butcher this, molecular, complexion will change. All the atoms in your body will, will, will be completely different from 84 days to the next. So essentially, what you thought you could do or you couldn't do, may not, you know, stand the test of time and, and, and you could potentially change the way you feel about something and do something you've never done. I think we're, if we're not evolving and changing, we're dying. And I think that the people we surround ourselves with, because we're built a frequency, we're built of energy, it's so impactful because that directly influences who we're becoming. So it's not just supplements that you take. It is the media you consume, is the people you surround yourself with. It's the rooms that you put yourself in. It's the energy that you exchange with somebody. And if that's not changing you, lifting you, challenging you, then what are you doing here? You're going to play a diet. Get busy leaving or get busy dying. Right. Yeah, for sure. I want to thank you so much for coming onto the show and just sharing your story. You've been such an inspiration for me. I love your show. And whenever that thought comes back to you, you have to tell me, I want to know, was the one thing that might have changed you. Definitely. I've been asked that before and it didn't have an answer. I need to revisit it. It may not come to you anytime soon. Yeah, no, but we're sitting on the pod tomorrow where it'll be my turn to really, I'll have an answer because you know what, I've had too many, I had the opportunity to have intimate conversations with too many people from enough to have an answer to that question. So thank you for sparking that and I will find one and tell you 24 hours. And for all my audience listening, a lot of them are from North American stuff. What is a piece of an anecdote or a piece of advice or something you'd like to leave them with? There have been so many great nuggets in this conversation, but if there's something that you want to leave the audience with. Not to listen to anyone or anything or any channel or any station. Go see for yourself. Yeah. Maybe talk about Saudi Arabia. Go go see for yourself and then you be the judge of what you saw. Absolutely. And may you then communicate and cascade that information to those who may not be in the know in whatever it is. And for goodness sake, try new things. I love what you just said. If we're not busy, you know, living where we're busy dying. So get out there and seek the information because as we mentioned, all the information is out there. Question is are you looking to tap into it or not? I always say that we need to get outside of our own echo chambers, find people that think differently to us, act differently to us, behave differently to us so that we can learn to be more adaptable but also learn tolerance. We have become so intolerant as a species. If something doesn't look like me, sound like me, feel like me, then it's wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Be authentic to yourself, right? So thank you for doing the incredible work that you do. You're such an inspiration and I know it's the end of the day and I pulled you to do this recording with me. So thank you for that. Any time. Thank you. Thank you. You're having me on as an honor. I'll see you tomorrow.
