How Forgiveness Actually Works — And When Not To Do It

Tired of the, I know it's here somewhere, moment? The new ScanSnap IX 2400 scanner means you'll never search for a receipt again. Our simplest scan snap experience yet. Just press the blue button and instantly convert documents into digital files you can find in seconds. Perfect for busy professionals who need organization without complexity. With instant one-touch scanning, 45 pages per minute speed, and automatic data extraction, the IX 2400 saves your files exactly where you need them. No more mystic spence claims or lost warranties. Just peace of mind knowing everything important is safe and instantly accessible. Ready to stop wasting time hunting for paperwork? Visit scansnapit.com slash podcast and discover how simple document management can be. ScanSnap. The smarter way to work. Hey, it's Anna and Mandy from our podcast, Sisters in the City, and we're currently sponsored by the Department for Work and Pensions. Life's busy and admin gets forgotten, but if you're claiming benefits, listen up. If something changes, you need to tell DWP. Otherwise, you could face a penalty. That could be a partner moving in, even if they keep their own place. Or if your car doubles up as a taxi and a family car, you must only report work related costs. Or forget and savings like premium bonds. To find out if you need to report a change, search tell DWP. Here's the new Citroen C3 Aircross, the perfect SUV for bears and lovers of the great outdoors. Sure, and comfort too. Inside, it easily goes from five to seven seats and for you, Cubs, look, it's got Apple CarPlay and your favorite apps. Yes, Mr. Grizzly available in petrol for electric or hybrid. So ready for a family adventure? The new Citroen C3 Aircross, for lovers of the wilderness and everyday comfort. Now with a £1,500 electric car grant. Hi, I'm Raj Binjabi Johnson, head of identity content at Half Post. And I'm Noah Michelson, head of Half Post Personnel. Welcome to Am I doing it wrong? The show that explores the all-too-human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives ready. Okay, Noah, are you doing forgiveness wrong? That is such an interesting question because I definitely forgive people. But I don't think that I actively think about forgiveness, or how I'm doing it, or if I'm doing it wrong, or if there's a right way to do it. So now that we've decided to do an episode out, and I'm just spiraling out into the galaxy, and I'm like floating around, and I'm like, am I doing this right? What do you think? I mean, I think it's a really abstract concept forgiveness. I don't think I'm great at it because a lot of times, when I have a conflict with someone, I'll just quit space between us, instead of really working on it. So I'm really, really happy to have with us today. Dr. Esther Boykin, a marriage and family therapist in DC who focuses her work on healthy relationships. Let's get absolved. All right, Dr. Esther, we are so excited to have you here to talk about forgiveness. I am excited to be here. It's one of my favorite things to talk about, just because I think sometimes I have opinions that differ from colleagues when it comes to forgiveness. I'm sure that happens. Yeah. Okay, let's get right to it. First of all, how do you define forgiveness? Does it depend on the situation, or is there like one succinct way to define it that applies to everything? I typically think about forgiveness, and I do think this applies to just about every scenario, universally, as coming to an acceptance of that someone has harmed us in some way, accepting that, releasing the emotional energy around it, and feeling as though we can move on. Like, it's an integrated part of our story, not something that is continuing to be friend center, if that makes sense. I think that makes total sense. Yeah. I kept, when I was prepping for this episode, I kept hearing about like, the eight key ways to forgive, or the four steps to forgiveness, or three stages of forgiveness. Do you follow any of that, or how do you see the as being a process? How do you think about actually moving through forgiveness, just to get the lay of the land? While I totally understand our human desire for steps, like I especially, I'm like, no, what is that? Like, even with my own care, I was like, what are the steps? Yeah. Six or seven, what do I do to get to the next one? But realistically, I do not subscribe to this concept. There are like eight stages, and you just move through them sequentially, and then, you've forgiven. I think much like all of our emotions, it is kind of a very fluid process that we find ourselves navigating in our own pacing, and sometimes you're at quote unquote step eight, and then all the sudden you wake up and you're at step two, like human emotion in our process, particularly when it comes to relationship, which is really where forgiveness, I think, lives is in our relationship to other people, is fluid and ambiguous most of the time. It is not linear. I totally believe you, because I'm thinking about times with my partner or with my best friend, where we've had some kind of conflict, and there has been forgiveness. But then, as my therapist has said, there are some other things that will trigger, or will remind me of the conflict. And then, little bits of resentment will pop up, and you got to deal with that too. So, I believe you, it sounds fluid. It's not like you're just one 10 and done. No, and it's not happening in a vacuum either. Like you said, there are other things that are going to happen, or other interactions. And so, it seems to me, I feel that too. We did an episode on grief, and the therapist, in that episode, said the same thing about grief. It's people love, like you said, to have steps. Because what we're dealing with something that is probably maybe traumatic, or it's an experience or someone really has hurt us, we do want to figure out that, like, best way forward. And then, we want to be fucking done with it. Exactly. But that's just not how life works, I don't think. And we will talk about forgiveness in the context of relationship, and forgiving yourself too. But let's start talking about forgiving other people. I think there's a narrative, and we'll get into that later, about forgiveness is the best thing for yourself. You're setting yourself free. But I just want to clarify, we don't need to forget abuse, right? Or forgive someone for abuse. I'm just thinking about when someone really does something hurtful or horrible to you. Yeah. Well, first, I also do not really, I think that concept of, like, forgiving forget, unless you have amnesia. Or smoke a lot of weed, yeah. Yeah, right. I mean, there's some ways we can forget, usually those are temporary. But like, so absolutely, I think that, and I think this comes back to the idea too, that so often we think about forgiveness and reconciliation as being the same thing. And they're not our people. And I'll talk more about, you know, how important or not important, I think it is to forgive everybody for everything. I don't really believe that other, but they're people who will forget, right? Who, I mean, we've read stories, right? Like, families forgiving someone who murdered a loved one, you know, somebody forgiving an abusive parent or partner now that they've moved on. Yeah. It does not require and often cannot happen if you are then reentering the relationship or trying to repair the relationship. Forgiveness is one thing. Relationship repair and reconciliation is actually a completely different thing. And they often come together, like, it's hard to reconcile if I haven't forgiven you, but just because I'm forgiving you doesn't mean that I actually want or need or should have you in my life in any meaningful way. And so I think that it is possible to forgive those things. I don't think it's required. But it's really important to recognize, like, just because you forgive somebody doesn't mean that you ever need to let them back into your life or have the same relationship or, you know, suddenly have close boundaries or any of those kinds of things. That makes sense. It does. I think that people might be thinking, what is the point then of forgiving someone? If you're not going to forget, if you're not going to have them back in your life, why would it be a good thing for me to actually go through forgiveness? Talk a little bit about that. So I think of it in two components. One will not really apply to everyone. So one, I think, as more of a, like, spiritual moral philosophical standpoint, your value system kind of had, like, lead you towards forgiveness. Like, I make mistakes because I'm human. Other humans are going to make mistakes. And sometimes their mistakes hurt me. And I feel a religious spiritual moral imperative to try to forgive them. Then that's one reason. That's also a very personal reason. I think, from my standpoint, from more psychological mental health standpoint is forgiveness, ideally, is about releasing ourselves of the emotional labor that is required to be hurt. To me, forgiveness is about us, first and foremost. Again, on that kind of love for other people and spiritual side, then there is forgiveness for others because I want to set them free. I want them to get to a place where they can forgive themselves and move on. And I think in the case of a relationship with somebody where you're continuing, like, you know, you mentioned, like, your best friend or like, you know, I think about like my partner, like, I forgive because I want to move forward. And I also don't want him to hold on to the fact that he did something that hurt me and I can't get over it. Like, it's hard for us to stay in a relationship. And it's good for the relationship. But mostly, I think we need to be free of that emotional weight and burden. Yeah. Emotional labor, I use that like a lot because I'm just like, I can feel it. Whether it's my anxiety that the switch has been turned on and I'm physically tired from being worried. Right. Like, I feel like with anger, it's the same thing. Anger is such a powerful emotion. Like, it requires so much of our energy. Yeah. It's really is for us. Yeah. It's the same thing with the grudge, which I feel like is almost like anger, but like elongated. Yeah. Where you're holding onto this grudge. And I think like you're both saying, it's a lot of work to keep that going. And if you can let go of that, whether or not you're going to bring that other person back into your life, like just releasing that. Yeah. It's really healthy. I'm just thinking I'm laughing because I me and one of my friends joke about like someone I didn't like in our internship 20, 20 years ago. And now I joke about it. But I'm like, damn, I'm a petty ass bitch. Like, I am really still holding on and people laugh about it. And it does take a little bit of emotional labor, but like, it's kind of hard to forgive. Like even if it's for yourself. Yeah. Oh, it's very hard to forgive. It reminds me. I have a colleague, Erica, and we would talk about this often. And her thing is like, if holding that grudge or holding that anger costs you little to nothing, right? Like it's a minimal amount of energy. She's like, then that level of energy versus the amount of energy would require to fully process. Why did I do not like her? What do I need? Yeah. Yeah. Like if that feels like more work, you know what? Just keep your petty grudge. You know what? I love that. It's not hurting you. It's not hurting, you know, I mean, that woman probably either never thinks about you ever or also is holding her own little petty grudge. Yeah. Or possibly thinks you're the greatest person ever. Yeah. Okay, first of all, I love that. There's someone in the hip hop world had this quote that was like, I want you to eat just not at my table. Like, I don't care about that woman. Like, she, I wish her well. I'm just like, it's like, I like the idea of an anger audit or like a forgiveness audit. Like, think about what you want to hold on to. Yes. I also think sometimes grudges can actually be productive in a way that they can give you drive. Yeah. I will do anything for people. Once you're in my life and you're good, I will do anything. But if you cross me after I've gone to bat for you, I don't forget that. And I don't hold on to the grudge in terms of like, like you said, I'm not thinking, I'm thinking of one person in particular who really, I really worked so hard for them and like, gave them recommendations and did everything for them. And then they treated me like shit. Yeah. I don't think about her anymore. She's not taking up space in my mind. But if she came back to me for something else, yeah, I'm not going to help her again. Yeah. And so I think sometimes grudges can also inform the way that you also move through the world and also protect yourself in a way. Yeah. So I think partially what I'm also hearing is like, there's a difference in my mind between learning the lesson that our anger was there to teach us. Yeah. And holding a grudge. Okay. It's like, you're not really still angry. It's just like, oh, you did a thing. I was angry at the time that you crossed me that you betrayed me. Lesson learned. Yeah. Mew injuries around this person, this relationship. And you know, sometimes the boundary is like, oh, I just don't like, we don't mess with each other anymore. Like lose my number. And now I've set new boundaries, which to me is a little bit different than like holding a grudge. Yeah. It does require a bit of energy and effort. And my experience is once you've learned the lesson and you've really set new boundaries, like you've kind of feel like you've taken your ownership back from this person, from the situation, it's harder to really hold a grudge. I mean, it goes back to the piece around like, forgive and forget. Like, no, you can forgive that you will never forget it. And that doesn't always mean that you're holding a grudge. One of the things I keep thinking about though, is an apology. How important is an apology to forgiveness? It seems like the two go together. Can you forgive someone if you don't get an apology? Like a verbal apology. Yeah. Or something. An acknowledgement from the other person that they did something wrong. Do you need that? Or can we do forgiveness without that? We can do forgiveness without it. If we're deciding that we want to forgive a person, a lot of times we have to do it without them, right? Like they've passed, we're no longer in relationship with them. They don't think they did anything wrong. Like, there's a lot of scenarios where we're not going to get the apology. And sometimes we get apologies that don't actually meet our needs. I'm sorry, I made you feel that way. Right. You know, like you break up with somebody and they're like, I'm sorry for everything I ever did that upset you. Garbage. What? That's just a trash apology. So we can forgive those people, but asincere, heart-felt apology can certainly make the process much easier. Part of what we struggle with in forgiveness is if we're in relationship with people, we trusted them, we believed something about them. We thought they were a certain type of, and so their betrayal, their hurtfulness, challenges not just, it doesn't just change how we feel about them and what they did to us, but like how we trust our own judgment. But that person comes back and attempts to make a man's and apologizes in a really heart-felt and genuine way. It helps us to kind of heal the part of us that was like, I obviously, I can't trust my own judgment anymore. But if you come back and apologize, it's sort of like, okay, well, maybe they did just make a mistake. And it's not me and my judgment is actually solid. Our need to forgive ourselves is often very tangled up in our ability to forgive others. And so the apology, if you owe someone out of good apology, just if you care about them at all, even if you never want to see them again, give them apology. I think it's a gift we can give people. Yes. What do you think Dr. Esther though about how important is it to give someone forgiveness verbally or to actually have the exchange when you're saying, if Raj does something to me, do I need to say to her, Raj, I forgive you? Is that important? Good question. I think that is very situation-specific. Okay. And relationship-specific. There's some relationships where, like if your intention is, I'm going to forgive this person, but I lessen learned, like, you know, the example that you gave, right? Like I also am not going to help you and we're not really friends anymore. Like, the relationship is over. I'm not, I've forgiven you. You probably don't have to have that. You may decide, I don't need to have that conversation because we're not continuing in a relationship. Yes. Right. You know, ongoing relationships. There are also things that sometimes we decide to forgive that we don't need to talk about. Like, yeah. Right now, like, your mom snaps at you and hurt your feelings. But you didn't say anything in the moment necessarily, right? Or like, you kind of snapped back or whatever. Yeah. Every time that happens, you're probably not like getting back together and sitting down over a cup of tea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You look through, right? Like, you both sort of just go like, okay, well, if it's still lingering, maybe one of you comes back and will say something, but there's a lot of times where we are forgiving people all the time. So as much as in the big snares, it feels hard. There's lots of tiny forgiveness that happens in intimate relationships of all kinds where there really isn't a lot of need for conversation. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in my culture, this is like a thing that people talk about. I'm taking stock and stuff for South Asians. Like, when a parent and a child have like a little bit of a conflict or whatever, the parent brings their child a bowl of cut fruit. That's like, I'm sorry. And like a lot of time, like immigrant parents don't have the words. Like, there's it's a very weird communication thing. And then if you accept the fruit, like you forgive it and you move on, it's like such a sweet thing. But it makes me think about like, what are symbols of apology and forgive them? Yeah. I really like that. And I think on the other end of the spectrum, sometimes people make such a huge production out of it that it doesn't even feel genuine. You're absolutely right. I want all this attention and I'm forgiving you and it's like just calm down. Yeah. Not everything needs to be that serious. Completely. Yeah. I love this symbolism. I just want to highlight that. Culturally it happens. But I also think within relationships, like, yes, you have personal things that we do. Like, oh, you know, like my daughter and I will have little conflict. And then it will be like, do you want to get a latte? Yeah. And it's my thing. She might say it. And it's just sort of like, okay, well, now we've gone to have our coffee together. And like, we're good. We've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. Neither one of us really needed to like hash that out. And so I think like when people are thinking like, how do I forget? How do I express my forgiveness? Like, looking for that, I think is really important. So you know how you can express it outside of just words. Wow. In my relationship, it's, do you want to eat? Like, do you want to go get some food? I think everything with me revolves around food at the end of the day. I'm not mad about that. Yeah. I love it. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hey, it's Anna and Mandy from our podcast Sisters in the City. And we're currently sponsored by the department for work and pensions. Life's busy and admin gets forgotten. But if you're claiming benefits, listen up. If something changes, you need to tell DWP otherwise you could face a penalty. That could be a partner moving in, even if they keep their own place. Or if your car doubles up as a taxi and a family car, you must only report work related costs or forgotten savings like premium bonds. To find out if you need to report a change, search tell DWP. And many more. Subscribe now so you never miss an episode. The Talent Transformation podcast, redefining talent, one conversation at a time. Here's the new Citroen C3 Aircross, the perfect SUV for bears and lovers of the great outdoors. Sure, and comfort too. Inside, it easily goes from five to seven seats and for you, Cubs, look, it's got Apple CarPlay and your favorite apps. Yes, Mr. Grizzly available in petrol for electric or hybrid. So ready for a family adventure? The new Citroen C3 Aircross, for lovers of the wilderness and everyday comfort. Now with a £1,500 electric car grant. Welcome back to Am I doing it wrong? I have to ask you about acceptance. I feel like a lot of forgiveness is about acceptance and I personally have a lot of trouble accepting and you think that I don't like. How do we sit with uncomfortable feelings? But nowhere are you better at that? I feel like you are. I actually have no idea. Okay. I think I can be, but I also I can never have a hard time. You seem better adjusted than me in this front. Yes, Dr. Esther, tell us. How do we sit with difficult emotions? You just do. Like this is one of those answers that like my clients get so upset with me because they're like, what do you mean? And like, yeah, this is it. Like, you know, in session, I'm gonna like hold your hand. Yeah. Some of it is just sort of like, how do I soothe myself so that I can still be in this? Like not distract from but soothe myself. Ooh, next moment. So it might be a bowl of cut fruit or pizza or coffee or a weighted blanket or a friend who will sit with you. But like, thinking about like, how do I give myself just enough comfort to tolerate the fact that I don't like how I'm feeling? That's good. That's good. And there's a big difference between that and a martini at like distraction. Yeah, sedation. Right. That's different or doing things that actually aren't going to be good for you. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true. Yeah. I have friends that we drink a lot of. I love wine. They love wine. I'm always like, it's a glass of wine. Not a bottle. Yeah. Yeah. We didn't go get a glass of wine because we had a really hard day and like, but if we're like, now it's a bottle of wine. Now we're now we're no longer processing our day. We're just trying to avoid the day. And that's processing versus yeah, avoiding. Absolutely. I'd love to go back to something. I think we touched on earlier, Dr. Esther, where there, I think there's this idea that if we feel hurt or we feel angry after we've forgiven someone, we actually haven't forgiven them. But you were saying earlier that, you know, this might not happen immediately. It might not be like a really super one and done thing. Can you talk a little bit more about the emotions we might still be feeling after we've forgiven someone? And if any of that means actually it didn't count. I think if we can embrace the idea that it's a process instead of trying to like dictate specific feelings, well, I've forgiven you so I shouldn't feel angry anymore. I don't get to be resentful. I don't get to question you. I think the more important thing sometimes is to look at intensity of feeling over time. But I've forgiven you. Like you say something or we're in a similar situation or for whatever reason, I feel a little slighted or like you're not valuing me in some way. And I get angry again. And then I go back to this in my mind, back to that situation or bring it up again. That doesn't mean I haven't necessarily forgiven. But if I feel the same level of anger and resentment and fury six months later, yeah, said I forgiven you, I probably haven't actually forgiven you. There's some other aspect of the relationship or our dynamic or something that has to be addressed because the intensity should be dwindling. And the frequency should be dwindling. It's sort of like complicated math equation, right? Like I can think of things that I just find them particularly triggering. Like so like if somebody I mean really shipped somebody and they do something and I feel really hurt and I feel like they didn't are not extending me any grates. Like there's no room for me to make mistakes or something like that. And I'm really angry about that. I can forgive them. But the next time it happens six months later, the intensity might really be there. But in those six months, I didn't think about it. We've had other conflict. Like it's been fine. But it's sort of like if you bring me back to that exact moment, that exact kind of similar scenario, it can flare a little bit. And then I threw it. So like I don't I know that we really want like a much more like a cleaner equation for it. But it is sort of looking at those two things. And does it feel like I'm moving forward? I think it's a really useful question to ask. Yeah. The reality is that we can't determine if someone's forgiven us or not. We can only determine if this new, new version of our relationship is going to work for us. And this makes me think too about what the purpose of the forgiveness is in a certain situation. I think about friends who have been cheated on by their partner. And they forgive them. But even just watching them interact, you can just see that the partner who had been cheated on still has a lot of resentment. And still is really worried that it's going to happen again. And it seems like they haven't dealt with that underlying issue. And that's where I feel like they need to see someone like Dr. Esther. They actually need some maybe professional help to deal with what happened because they can actually forgive until they really have dealt with that. You look dig into the wound. I always say, if it's still infected, yeah, probably not going to heal. Yeah. I think that's a really great example. And the one I often go to is like cheating. There are other ways in which we can feel meaningfully betrayed by someone in a relationship. And it substantially changes the relationship. And I think that this is where people get stuck, find themselves kind of like then in this relationship that isn't moving forward or where it's as you said, like you're still resentful, you're still mistrustful. And that part's not getting better. And I think we have to acknowledge that peace. Like forgiveness does not suddenly make us go backwards. Life only moves forward. And so if this huge breach has happened, even if you forgive, the forgiveness is just a component of what is to come forward, right? And so you do have to kind of get into the wound. Like why did this happen? What needs to change? But you also have to recognize like because of this incident, this relationship is forever changed. Right. Yeah. Doesn't always have to be for the worst, but it is forever and irrevocably changed. And if both partners are not really kind of owning that and actively working on like, so what does the future look like? Then it just sort of becomes this very stagnant, very painful experience for both people. That's brilliant. That like sometimes in a big breach happens, like it's a new version of yourself. Like you can't really undo that. So like what's next? Right. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Tired of the, I know it's here somewhere, moment. The new ScanSnap IX 2400 scanner means you'll never search for a receipt again. As simplest scan snap experience yet, just press the blue button and instantly convert documents into digital files you can find in seconds. Perfect for busy professionals who need organization without complexity. With instant one touch scanning, 45 pages per minute speed and automatic data extraction, the IX 2400 saves your files exactly where you need them. No more mystic spends claims or lost warranties. Just peace of mind knowing everything important is safe and instantly accessible. Ready to stop wasting time hunting for paperwork? Visit scansnapit.com slash podcast and discover how simple document management can be. Scan snap. The smarter way to work. Hey, it's Anna and Mandy from our podcast, Sisters in the City, and we're currently sponsored by the Department for Work and Pensions. Life's busy and admin gets forgotten, but if you're claiming benefits, listen up. If something changes, you need to tell DWP otherwise you could face a penalty. That could be a partner moving in, even if they keep their own place. Or if your car doubles up as a taxi and a family car, you must only report work-related costs. Or forgotten savings like premium bonds. To find out if you need to report a change, search tell DWP. Here's the new Citroen C3 Air Cross, the perfect SUV for bears and lovers of the great outdoors. Sure, and comfort too. Inside it easily goes from five to seven seats and for you, Cubs, look, it's got Apple CarPlay and your favorite apps. Yes, Mr. Grizzly, available in petrol for electric or hybrid. So ready for a family adventure? The new Citroen C3 Air Cross, for lovers of the wilderness and everyday comfort. Now with a £1,500 electric car grant. Welcome back to Am I doing it wrong? Empathy. I feel like something. I have a friend named Patia, she's a perfect example. She is so empathetic toward people that when people have done her wrong, she often will think about why, you know, why they did it, where they're coming from, what trauma they may be experiencing is, she's an angel and I cannot do that. She's a lot of empathy. How much empathy do we need to have? Where do we get it from? Yeah, empathy is both a thing we, I think most of us have a general set point based on kind of our nature and nurture coming up, right? And you can cultivate lots more empathy for people. It is necessary. Empathy and compassion for others is necessary. I actually think one of the best ways for us to cultivate more of it is to be focused on our own self-compassion and empathy, self, the better, the more I can forgive myself, the more I understand and kind of put my own flaws, failures, mistakes in context of being human. Easier it is for me to see other people. And I think two things happen. One, I think that people tend to think of empathy and compassion as absorbing people. I can't, I'm a therapist, I have empathy for everybody. I can talk to you for 20 minutes and ask a couple questions and probably piece together a reasonably accurate idea of why you did what you did and it was so horrible. And also it was still fruitful. Intent and the rationale behind it does not change its impact. And so we still have to set boundaries. And so I worry sometimes about people who tend to go to the empathy piece first. Because then are we forgetting about taking care of ourselves? Are we setting really good boundaries? Are we actually letting people know when they heard us so that they have an opportunity to change behavior to make sure that we're in healthy relationships that are reciprocal and not just like I pour into the whole entire world. And then people just do what they want. We want to moderate that empathy, but it is something that you can work on. Again, I think starting with yourself. When I first started therapy when I was 21 years old, my therapist Gail loved her. She said after a couple months, she was like, I think that you have too much empathy. She was like, it's like if human beings are windows, she's like, your windows all the way up and you don't have a screen on it. And anything that wants to come through comes through. And it's like you're saying Dr. Esther, she was like, you need to figure out how to set some boundaries because without healthy boundaries, it's actually not good for you or the other person. It blew my mind. I had never thought of it that way before. And not as what is something I've worked on for the last 25 years is trying to figure out how can you be empathetic? Really care about people, but also not do it so much that it's bad for everybody. That's what therapy is so cool. I feel like I get the energy from you Noah that like you still are extremely empathetic. Like you understand people's situations. But like do not fuck over your boundaries. Yes. And it took a long time to get there. Yeah. But I think that that visualization was one thing that that's why yeah, therapy is so cool because someone else, a third party, pretty objective is saying think about it in this way. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah, it's dope. Dr. Esther, what have you seen? I've read that scientists have studied what happens in the brain when people forgive. And there are actually like physical things that can happen. What do you know about what's going on when we forgive people? So I will say I'm definitely not a brain expert, although I geek out on all the little articles and the daddy. What I will say just like more experientially working with people is I feel like a little bit of a broken record coming back to like forgiveness of self. Yeah. But I feel like that is the most powerful experience watching people, even in the process of trying to forgive someone else, recognize the ways in which they have been holding on to a lot of like criticism and judgment and anger and mistrust with themselves. Mm-hmm. It is incredible how their relationship to the entire world changes. Like forgiveness. Yeah. Billy does kind of open us up to a place of like reducing our anxiety. For some people, it changes like their experiences of depression and then relationally just feeling like you can be more intimately connected. You know, when I talked about when there's betrayal, how it changes a relationship. For some people when they put into work and forgiveness is part of that equation, the new relationship is actually more intimate. It is more emotionally connected. Like on the other side of this work and this the process of forgiveness can be a different kind of vulnerability. And I think, you know, you're talking about this like learning to have boundaries and care more deeply at the very same time. I feel like that's a game changer for a lot of people. Yeah. You know, when you're talking about self-compassion before, I was thinking about how mean people, people who are generally mean to other people are so mean to themselves. Yeah. So mean, they like the self-talk, like just the negativity. It's like hurt people hurt people. Yeah. And I think that's so true. Hard to watch. But then you like understand, I'm on a constant journey of self-forgiveness. Like there are things that when I was six, seven years old that I feel bad about any advice about I feel like I'm pretty balanced and I know I feel like I'm a good person. But like what what are what's the process of forgiving yourself? This is such this is like one of my favorite questions. Well, it gets me to talk about one of my favorite things, which is really digging into the self-compassion piece. Because I think that that is if you want some sort of steps and things to do, this is like the framework that I think is most effective. So self-compassion is kind of made up of three core pillars, self-kindness, mindful awareness, common humanity, which I think of as like connection. If you just developed like a daily practice where you thought about those three things, it will help you to get better and better for giving yourself. So the self-kindness is really just can you be thoughtful about how you talk to yourself, all the self-charactivity as you do, not just the fun ones, but like going to the doctor and showing up for your therapy appointments. And you know, all of these things like learning actually being really intentional. And I I tend to do it with like really basic questions. So you've got it every day. And before you even I like to do it before you get out of bed, take like three deep breaths and then you're just how do I really feel today? What do I need today? How can I be more tender or gentle with myself today? In that order, because figuring out how you really feel will inform the answers to the next two questions. Like those three questions on a daily basis, take like three minutes, five minutes. Sometimes it takes so long to figure out how we really feel than we think it should. But like I think those three questions really kind of pave the path to making it much easier to work on self-forgiveness. You know what's so interesting about that. I mean, it is three simple questions, but they're actually pretty radical. Yeah, it choked me up. Yeah, no, before we came in today, I had a really bad morning and I was walking to the subway with Benji, my boyfriend and our dog. And I was, he was asking me about my day. And the more we talked, the more I was just like, I'm in a horrible mood. And I had to start thinking about why do how do I feel? And then why do I feel this way? Yeah. And I started to unpack it and I was like, oh, there's this thing I'm thinking about and I'm worried about this. And I started to like triangulate my life and understand my mood. But I think you're right, Dr. Esther. I don't think a lot of people actually really think how do I feel right now? How am I feeling this morning? And I think just starting there is such a radical place to start. Yeah, I think the word gentle really caught me off guard. Like how do we be more gentle with ourselves? I think that's super important. I think about how I talk to myself when I'm feeling really anxious. You know, my therapist has talked to me about accessing my inner 16 year old and like the and even like seven eight year old. Because that's what's happening. Like when we get upset about something, it's like, we sometimes become a kid again or like something's bubbling up. We need to be more gentle. Right. And forgiveness maybe is another way also of thinking there's obviously like forgiveness in the traditional sense, but also forgiveness for ourselves. Maybe it's just kind of saying, I understand why I feel this way. And I'm not going to be quite so hard on myself. In judgmental. Exactly. So maybe you're not actively forgiving yourself for something, but you're just like you said, being more tender, being more gentle and giving yourself a little more credit, a little more slack. Room space. Yeah. I like that idea. Yeah. I really try very hard to practice it daily myself in large part because I see how it changes things for people. And I'm like, it's very, it feels very simplistic. And I think a lot of times when, you know, my like any of us as therapists, we talk about like, you know, how do you do the work? How do you sit with your feelings? The honest answers tend to be very like broad and ambiguous. And it's hard to like wrap your hands around. But I'm like, just these three couple of things. Really, there's this internal shift that happens over time that I mean, I've had clients come back and just be like, I would just did it because you said it was like homework. And most of my clients are very tight day and they do the homework. Yeah. It was work. You know, six months later, they're like, I just show up for my life differently. Yeah. Yeah. It's truly that. Can you tell us anything about the physical benefits of forgiveness? Like what does it do to our body? If we can actually authentically forgive? I mean, the short answer I would say is like, you know, lower blood pressure, deep breathing, less actual like body tension. We really, most of us are very unaware of the ways that we carry our emotions in our bodies. Yeah. People just get used to like, oh, I always, I have a stomach ache every day. Right. You shouldn't have a stomach ache every day. Yes. Do something going on. Yeah. Yeah. They've been going on. And you know, maybe it's what you're eating, but probably it is holding on to some anger, some resentment, some hurt, whether it's directed at other people are directed at yourself or both. Like we hold that stuff inside of our bodies in ways that we just don't pay attention to. And so I think anytime I have clients obviously first go see your primary care doctor, but anytime working with somebody where they're talking about things like high blood pressure, anxiety, palpitations, headaches, neck pain, back pain, digested issues, that's the place that I go first is like, what are we not forgiving and what are we not grieving? And often those two things go end up happening together. Usually there's something to grieve if there's something we need to forgive. That shit is so real. And I think about New York City, like 50% of the population has IBS, like or some version of like, shitting in, not shitting all the time. Like it's just a mess. I'm like, pain, and I'm thinking about it used to be very woo woo to be like, our stress is contributing to this. Of course it is. Yeah. Of course. Or like, not your mental health. Not be able to sleep. Think about how many people can't sleep or get poor sleep. Yeah. The mind body connection is so real. Yeah. What about Dr. Esther? Are there times when we shouldn't forgive someone? You know, and if so, are the, what are the signs that we shouldn't forgive them or we're not ready to forgive them? And I just want to add to that, this is a great conversation for structurally marginalized people. I feel like I've edited an essay where somebody's talking about how queer people are very often shoved into this very Christian coded, like, forgive and all of that stuff. When, no, I don't need to forgive you for being homophobic toward me or racist toward me or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I generally go to, like, there's a baseline, right? If what you're doing is deshumanizing, there's no forgiveness for that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Like, I think forgiveness sort of has to be built on a foundation of like, basic humanity. And so if we're talking about the, you know, people who are have done things, have said things that uphold systems that deshumanize you in any way, I don't believe that you have any moral obligation to forgive them. But more importantly, I don't see the psychological benefits of working to forgive. I would be much more, again, like, I'm always going to bring it back to like, what is the most healing thing for you? Trying to forgive, like, systemic oppression, trying to forgive, you know, a racist family member, or, you know, a homophobic, you know, church community that you belong to versus working on, maybe forgiving the parts of yourself that was indoctrinated into some of those things, right? Yeah. That's listed in some of your own oppression or harm or the harm of others that, you know, belong to the same community or the same identity to you. Like, that's work that's worth doing from a mental health and psychological perspective, as opposed to trying to forgive people and organizations who are not actively working to make a bends. I think that that's also an important piece, like, forgiving, let's make it even making it more interpersonal, right? Like, forgiving a cheating partner who is continuing to cheat on you does not serve that doesn't serve your growth, your healing, your, you know, the life that you want to have for yourself. So like, that's not the, that's the least important work we could be doing right now. I love what you said about, you know, forgiving yourself for being complicit to some of these behaviors, because I'm thinking about it and I've definitely been complicit to like a colonized mindset and like unknowingly participated in it. So as I examine those things, I'm just like, okay, Raj, you know better, you're gonna do better. Like, all that stuff is gonna exist and I'm gonna let it, whatever, I'm not letting it in, but like, have to continue to work on myself. Well, also there are reasons why you were complicit in it, because we live in a world where there are these- Brainwashed, yeah, and insidious structures that we're all part of and it's very hard not to be. So sort of acknowledging that as well and again, being gentle, being tender with yourself and saying, you did this or you're struggling with this as days go by even. I think that that's really important. I also think too, I love what you're saying, Dr. Esther, about, you know, if someone's actively still dehumanizing you and how important it is to recognize that, but I would also imagine then you're gonna tell us that if you have someone who, you know, your homophobic uncle, who does come around and does change the way that they think and is able to make that change, that and not, and since that seems like a good time to maybe forgive someone. I think it's a good time to consider. Forget, you know, and what does forgiveness mean and look like to you? Yeah. And I mean, just generally, I find societally, this is our, our pressure is you're forgiving so that you can repair a relationship. Right. And definitely in like family, there's a experience, there's a lot of pressure around that. Yeah. And so I'm always encouraging people to like define it for yourself. You might decide, like, you know what? I really respect that he's come around, that he's done the work and is apologetic and remorseful for some of the things that he did. And also the things that he said and did to me or around me, I do not want that in my life in any meaningful way, period. Yeah. And so I can give that version of him or I can learn to accept that he's grown from that place. And also that doesn't necessarily change my boundaries about how has been tied together. And so like that process of rep again, making forgiveness very personal, what it looks like in relationship is not cookie cutter. You have to decide, does your forgiveness is that the first step on a road to reconciliation or is it simply about allowing yourself to be free of and accept that every human being evolves over time? So here's this new version of him. I love the wiggle room that we're allowed to have. It's so liberating. Yeah. Give it a self permission to decide in each instance, whether or not you What degree? Yeah. And not just forgiving because that's what our culture or society has said we should do. Or because someone has made a man's in some way, I love that you're saying, no, you still have to decide whether or not that actually is the healthiest thing for you. Yeah. And I just want to point out that I said Christian coded, but I don't mean to singular, like to point, you know, single out any religion because all organized religion is going to tell you that like something great is going to happen to you if you forgive. Right. When in reality, it's a lot more complicated than that. Absolutely. Yeah. Something great happens when you forgive yourself. Do that one first. See how you feel afterwards. Yeah. That's all it is. I love that. I love using the like very Wu TikTok phrase. I receive that when someone apologizes to me. And I feel like it kind of pertains in this situation. Like I received a lot of like very freeing information today. Yeah. And I'm ready to process it. And I think for so many people, like we were saying earlier, we just don't think about this stuff enough. We don't talk about it enough. We don't understand how it applies to ourselves. Yeah. And just having a conversation about it for 40 minutes, it opens a lot of doors. It does. Yeah. But with screens, but with screen doors, it's a little balance. Yeah. Dr. Esther, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, guys, so much for having me. It's time for better and five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode. Number one, forgiveness is not the same as reconciliation. It's simply the releasing of anger or hurt. Number two, there are no set steps or stages to forgiveness. Every situation is going to be different. Number three, you don't need an apology to forgive someone, but it might help the process. Number four, empathy is really important, but too much of it without any boundaries can be dangerous for us. And number five, you are never obligated to forgive other people, but it's always a good idea to forgive yourself. Okay, Raj, after that beautiful episode, I loved it. It was wonderful. It was wonderful. But do you think that you've been doing forgiveness wrong? Yeah, I think I've been doing okay. Okay. But the thing I really took from it is there are degrees of forgiveness. It's kind of a spectrum. Yeah. I'm going to think about that, examine that a lot more and pertain to my life. Right. And then also I want to work on forgiving myself for certain things. I think I don't need to carry that with me. What about you? I just love the permission she gave us to really think about forgiveness and whether or not it's going to serve us. And I think culturally so often, especially in this country, like there's this idea that forgiveness is always the best thing. It's pushed on us. No matter what happened, even if the person hasn't said they're sorry, it's going to just be better. Yeah. If you just forgive, forgiven, forget. Oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah. I love to think really critically about forgiveness and why we do it and why it's going to be good for us. And maybe why it's not going to be good for us. I'm totally with you. Yeah. Just kind of life changing. Anyway, until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better. Love y'all. Do you have something you think you're doing wrong? Email us at Am I doing it wrong at halfpost.com and let us know. Tired of the I know it's here somewhere. Moment. The new ScanSnap IX 2400 scanner means you'll never search for a receipt again. Our simplest ScanSnap experience yet. Just press the blue button and instantly convert documents into digital files you can find in seconds. Perfect for busy professionals who need organization without complexity. 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