88. How to build a disruptive product without outspending industry giants | Mark Rushmore

Welcome to All About Business with me, James Reid, the podcast that covers everything about business, management, and leadership. Every episode, I sit down with different guests who bootstrap companies, masterminded investment models, or built a business empire. They're leaders in their field, and they're here to give you top insights and actionable advice so that you can apply their ideas to your own career or business venture. How do you disrupt a category dominated by billion-dollar incumbents? Using something as ordinary as a toothbrush. Today on All About Business, I'm joined by Mark Rushmore, co-founder of Suri, the sustainable electric toothbrush brand challenging some of the world's biggest consumer companies. In this episode, we discuss founder burnout, building a design-led challenger brand, and what it takes to scale a hardware business in an increasingly competitive consumer market. Well, today on All About Business, I'm really delighted to welcome Mark Rushmore to the studio. Mark is the co-founder and CCO, that's Chief Commercial Officer, of Suri, which is short for Sustainable Rituals. And this is a sustainable personal care brand best known for its eco-friendly electric toothbrush. And people watching will see these wonderful Suri toothbrushes in front of you, Mark. This is a toothbrush that uses plant-based brush heads and is fully recyclable, unlike, it's important to stress, alternatives from huge companies like Oral-B and Philips. um before founding suri with his co-founder jiv safavi i hope i pronounced that correctly in 2021 mark worked at major consumer brands like procter and gamble and kellogg's building experience in marketing branding and product strategy welcome mark you've got a great story you've built and building a great business it all began at png what did you learn there well firstly thank you for having me i really is an honor to be here i'm a massive fan of you as an entrepreneur and and what you and your family have built. So yeah, it's great to be here. And then in terms of Procter & Gamble, I absolutely loved working there. A lot of my best friends to this day, the best man from my wedding, my neighbors are all friends who I made at Procter & Gamble. And I think actually it was a brilliant opportunity as a graduate to really learn the ropes of running a consumer brand across all sorts of different facets. You were given a lot of responsibility very early. They invest in training. And so it's a great place to learn, almost like a practical MBA in running a consumer goods company. It's interesting because you're not the first person who sat in our guest chair who started out at Procter & Gamble. It's clearly a good schooling, a good starting point. It really is. For a successful entrepreneurial career. Like a practical MBA is a nice way of describing it. It really is. And I think one thing that they do is attract, I think they recruit actually heavily using psychometric testing as well. And so there's a certain personality type and attitude which means that when you do join you sort of find a lot of like-minded people which is really interesting what they look for i don't know i don't want to get it wrong but um there's a rumor that they look for insecure overachievers so people who want to rumor okay yeah like uh you know and actually i think there's something in that you know people who who really want to perform and do their best but aren't quite sure they're good enough and therefore are hungry to always prove themselves and will work harder, go the extra mile, a bit competitive, maybe done extracurricular activities. But really, there's like a certain attitude, a certain hunger that comes from that type of person. So, you know, the founder of Octopus Energy, the founder, Richard Harpin, I believe, who's called HomeServe. He's been here. Richard Harpin. Yeah. And Frankie from the Chartered Management Institute. Yeah. He's been here. I mean, there were several people. There really are. And, you know, even in my cohort, there's another who set up a company called Mouse. They're doing tens of millions in revenue. Anisha, who's in the intake below me, who set up Scrumbles, a cat food brand. So it's amazing that that network, which sort of you keep for life. You keep it for life. So you have spoken, though, about sort of burnout in business. Tell me about that. What was your experience? Yes. Why is this important to you? Yeah, no, it's important. So after Procter & Gamble, I was working on Pringles when it was acquired by Kellogg's. I helped transition that business. And then I left and I actually embarked on a series of adventures. I won a competition to take part in a round world yacht race. I cycled from Canada to Mexico. I did a ski season in Canada. Yeah. How long does that take? It took about seven weeks. But, you know, we're carrying all of our tents and equipment and food. So this is the high achiever part of the Procter & Gamble equation. Well, this was sort of, you know, I took a redundancy opportunity. Right. And, you know, as a 26-year-old man, you know, I went from having maybe 500-pound savings to suddenly having, you know, a year and a half salary. Right. And I thought, you know, what should I do? But around the same time, unfortunately, someone I knew not very well, but someone I was sort of in my circle of friends, unfortunately, committed suicide. And I thought, as a young age, you know, I'm not going to wait until I retire to sort of live out all my dreams and take a chance, take a risk. And suddenly I've got this opportunity where I've got some money. I'm going to do those things. And one of them was set up a company. And so I set up the UK office of a German advertising agency. Right. And we sort of built that, scaled it, and sold it. And at the end of selling it, you know, I think I'd focused so much on being successful and, you know, having an exit and making some money that by the time I'd sort of finished it and got that sort of end result, I was pretty shattered, to be honest. So how old were you then? So you went from 26 to what? It must be like my early 30s. So I can't remember the exact age, but maybe I was 33. So that was like a seven-year journey. Yeah, something like that, exactly. And it was just a really important life lesson because I was really burnt out and had realized that I was so focused on the outcome. It's like such a cliche, but I didn't enjoy the journey as much. I was really so focused on like, oh, when I'm successful, everything will be great that I kind of ignored the day to day. And I ended up taking time out, going to some health retreats, actually, some interesting places to kind of reset and rethink about what's important. And I kind of came to this realization that I want to set up another business. I wanted to have a business that could scale sort of more exponentially than an agency business model. But also that I wanted to really enjoy what I was doing. And that like actually time truly is like, it's such a cliche, but our most precious commodity more than financial success. So you've said quite a lot here that I'd just like to explore a little because I'd like to understand better. So you'd obviously built this advertising agency successfully. you said towards the end of that journey you were burnt out you sold it but you were what what do you mean when you say you were burnt out what what how does that physically or emotionally manifest itself a great question so for me for five years i sort of felt like i was pushing a rock up a hill like we we fought and worked so hard for every single pound that we earned and you i think sometimes when things are hard, you don't sort of take stock to think about your health, to think about your mental health, your relationships. I was just so singly focused on succeeding that I'd sort of deprioritize everything else. And so as it came to the end and then sort of finished the exit, suddenly sort of everything that I'd sort of ignored for a long time sort of kind of compounded into a sort of like where have the last five years gone and like I'm shattered physically, emotionally, mentally, and probably just not really prioritizing the right things, whether it's relationships or health and all sorts of things. And honestly, like with Suri, the way it's growing as well, it is still difficult to, you know, really get a great balance. But kind of reaching this point where I really felt like, you know, something really needs to change was a very important kind of deep realization for me. You know what I mean? It wasn't exactly rock bottom. It wasn't woe is me, but certainly it sort of forced me to think that if I want to do this again, there needs to be a more sustainable, scalable way of doing it. And so, yeah, I don't know if you recall, but I actually went to this place called Viva Mare in Austria, which was really funny at the time. I think I was probably the youngest person there, you know doing all the sort of protocols on this austrian health clinic and i and i believe i bumped into you and your wife actually in a sauna and you did yeah and uh i recall and uh and you know i was just asking you know questions about life and and it just really struck me how generous you were with um how generous and humble genuinely you know given the size and scale of what you've built uh with your advice and it's sort of also you know i saw a group of people who i admire and and looked up to taking care of their health, prioritizing their relationships, you're there with your wife. And I thought, if I can go again and build something bigger, I'm gonna make a more conscious effort to do that because A, it's more sustainable and actually will help me succeed more, but B, also, I really think time is our most precious commodity, as cliche as it sounds. And so I want to kind of get more enjoyment from every minute rather than just aligning my life for a future outcome. I think you're completely right. I mean, from my own experience, an entrepreneurial life is a sort of busy one, and it's good to take time to look after one's relationships and health. It's important to do that, actually, if you want to be sustained. And it's a marathon, not a sprint, isn't it? Did you know that there are nearly 1 million 18 to 24-year-olds who are currently not in education, employment or training in the UK. This is simply not good enough and I want to do something about it. That's why REED is launching a new initiative giving £20,000 to young entrepreneurs to help them grow their small business. Visit reed.com forward slash entrepreneurs to find out more. We want to support and encourage the next generation of entrepreneurs. And I mean look I I still get it wrong all the time. Next week, I'm on a trip to US and I think I've got flights on, you know, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. It's hard and, you know, we're growing rapidly. But, you know, it's trying to work out how do you compete in that marathon? What advice might you give yourself now? Yeah. You know, the younger mark about how to avoid burnout given what you've learned yeah then and since i think an important one for me is perhaps not to try and shoulder all the um the weight of of everything that's happening on your own shoulders alone i think actually having mentors or someone perhaps who's a bit older or more experienced in business like yourself or you know it can be anyone i think actually sharing those problems with someone who maybe understands a business context because it's all very well sharing it with maybe your family or friends, but if they don't truly understand maybe the pressures of running a company, it can sometimes, there can be a little bit of a disconnect. I think I probably shouldered too much of it myself and sort of got into negative cycles of not being as healthy. And I think surrounding yourself with other people who maybe encourage healthy habits, but also who you can talk to openly and share those troubles with, I think would be what I would advise others do. So is that an argument for maybe getting a business coach? Do you do that? Yeah, oh, absolutely. We have a business coach. We actually have a psychologist who works with Gieven I. We invest a lot into training with former heads of people from other companies, but it really, you know, that relationship component and, you know, having someone to address your fears, concerns, you know. So you have a business psychologist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So focused on you as a business partnership and the company. Exactly, yeah. And it can be different topics at different times. But we know that one of the sort of top five reasons companies at scale fail is, you know, it's founders falling out. And so, you know, we thought from the beginning, like we really need to invest in our relationship and ensure that you know we're we're sort of supporting our own mental health our relationship and yeah i actually one of someone i met actually has uh this world famous uh couples therapist esther perel as their business coach all right you know which i which i thought was like we haven't gone that far yeah well famous couples therapist yeah that's a good idea i was going to ask you where do you find a business psychologist So, you know, we stumbled into our first support, which is Dr. Paul Fury. He was working with some of our investors and he was working with a lot of like top financial investors and coaching them. I think we then read that a lot of top athletes and people in finance often have performance coaches, you know, Formula One, I think famously use a variety of different people. And so we started investigating that further. And then for me, the recommendations, personal recommendations are really important and then fit. And so we've, you know, we've been recommended different people at different stages of our journey who can support in different areas. You know, sometimes it's around, you know, organizational change, sometimes around personal relationships, sometimes it's around, you know, just how we're feeling. But I do think emotional well-being is really important. And, yeah, I think a lot of the top founders who I meet have some sort of level of support across these areas which helps them. So you found that helpful and valuable? Yeah, enormously. And so because of that, you're happy to commit time to it, I guess. Is it quite time-consuming? Not that time-consuming. you know it is extremely difficult when you're when you're when you're very busy and and honestly sometimes we all deep that's why i wonder how you fit all this in yeah yeah i mean it's one of those things it's there's probably like never a good time for something like this and so it's just like you know we're just gonna do it and we're gonna do it right now because it's important rather than urgent i suppose exactly and you know if it can relieve some pressure if it can unlock a new way of thinking about something if it can improve a relationship if it can if it can enable you to handle you know more stress and and you know and and deal with more difficult situations with an even mind you just become more effective and you know again there's a reason why top athletes every top athlete has a variety of coaches or therapists who who support them to get optimum performance and i think um what you know and and it's true of business people as well Now, obviously, we can't afford the kind of top quality coaches that Lewis Hamilton can afford. But there are a lot of different people who you can learn from. I mean, really. Well, you might find a good one on their trajectory upwards. Yeah. You might get them early in their career. Exactly. And that comes back to doing more with less. Sometimes we'll negotiate a deal with someone and say, look, we're not the size of Google. know google but you know we have this really interesting opportunity and this is how you know we can support you back and you know there's often a deal to be had so i don't know do you mentor anyone i have done in the past yeah yeah yeah well if it's okay maybe we could agree you know if you would be up for doing like an hour you know we'll do some mentoring and i'll do it i'll show you the psychological coach yeah that'd be very interesting yeah you've started this new business sorry that's exactly right so how did that come about so it actually happened from a from a chance encounter I don't know if I don't know if you've ever had this in your life where you know for some reason you were in the same place as someone at the same time maybe it how you make your wife or a business partner but i i was very lucky to be at an industry event um and i ended up on this little um speedboat sat next to this other young guy we got chatting and it turned out that he had also worked at procter and gamble albeit in geneva um managing gillette and we just became instantly became friends and you know an hour later we were talking about what we would do to improve how fast-moving consumer goods are sold. So one thing that we were conscious of is the amount of plastic packaging that's put out into the world and a lot of superfluous packaging, which is maybe too large or with bits that you just throw away. And actually that vast impact, it was just enormous. And then the other thing we talked about was about consumer experience. I think Apple really redefined, you know, the value proposition of a product. It's not just a physical product. Even the unboxing becomes something that, you know, is part of the experience, the customer service, the aesthetic, how you engage and interact with it. And so we felt that that was also lacking in consumer goods. So we became friends, that's Gieve and I. And we, you know, I saw my company, he actually was then running an e-commerce business. he left and then we looked at you know different categories and we saw that with toothbrushes billions and billions of them get thrown away every single year and end up in landfills and oceans i'm you know afraid to say probably you know almost every brush you've ever used since you were a boy probably still exists somewhere because the materials they're made out of which you know for one person is alarming but then when you multiply that by everyone it's quite a thought it is quite a thought um and then we're like wow that that seems that doesn't seem great but you know let's dig into this further and then we we looked at electric toothbrushes and saw that you know it's a really fast-growing segment of the category because they're you know unequivocally much more effective than manual brushes but you know when we interviewed thousands and thousands of um consumers and asked them you know what brand do you use and often people couldn't recall the name of the brand that they're using we're like but how often how often are you using it well twice a day how long have you been using that brush for five years but you can't tell me the name and that sort of started ringing an alarm bell it's like wow that's that's a bit of an apathy there um you know it's you know they bought it out of you know just necessity not not out of any sort of brand love or affinity and then we said you know well actually i should ask you um you know have you ever connected your phone to your toothbrush and do you check that every day no of course not right have you ever had the horrible gunky stuff on the bottom yes yes right it's It's terrible. And do you always take it when you go traveling with you? No. No, because it's clunky. The battery dies. No, I take a manual one. I take a manual one because of all these features that aren't that great for you. And so, even I had this hypothesis, what if we can make a brush that was both more sustainable, but also with features you love? So like a long battery life, you know, really high performance, clinically proven clean, but with, you know, more sustainable materials with a UV light in the case, with USB-C charge, with a magnetic mirror mount so you don't get that gunk. And we launched in May 22. And I don't know, it was this real nerve wracking, like, will anyone like this? You know, like, is this going to work? So you had no real sense? You must have had some idea. Well, I mean, our whole hunch was based on the fact that it was going to work. But, you know, until you launch, you just never fully know. But within a week, we'd sold out of our first 5,000 units. So how did you sell them? So through meta-advertising. So, you know, through Facebook, through Instagram. Right. We'd sent them to journalists. You know, we told every single person we knew who brushed their teeth, which, you know, it was a few family and friends, most people. And so we kind of persuaded a few people on that. But it was really exciting. We're like, we're really happy for about half an hour. And then we're like, oh, this is terrible news. Now we're out of stock. And, you know, what do we do now? And so we had to go back onto pre-order and order more stock, which, you know, you don't really want to do as a consumer goods company. But, you know, we sort of failed forward from there. So, as I might compliment you, your packaging, you talked about, is really beautiful. and the product is very well thought through and designed. I mean, how long did that take? And what was the process you went through to create what is a very unique toothbrush? I can see why it sold out, basically. Thank you very much. So what was the process that got you to that point when you had a really lovely product that people wanted to buy and fell in love with, really? Sure. So it started with those insights around sustainability and really the consumer insights about what they liked and what they didn't like. And then truly my co-founder Geeve is, I don't know, I think we call them Geeve Jobs internally after his, you know, the person he looks up to, Steve Jobs. And he, Geeve Jobs, yeah. That's close. Yeah. But they share some similarities. And certainly one is attention to detail. But, you know, Geeve did a lot of deep research and we did it together looking at what different materials could you use. And so we use cornstarch in our head and castor oil in the bristles. now so say that again cornstarch cornstarch so that's the head of the that's the head and then castor oil in the bristles so it's a pla material and so as far as i'm aware no one was using this um these materials right and the problem with that is that when you go to a factory and say oh we you know we want to do this brand new thing that's not been done before with new materials that's not really in the interest of you know they're like no no just take this existing one we already know how to make it this is our design your one sounds risky and expensive and it might not work and no one wants those materials and so we had a really hard time persuading anyone to take you know this this risk on these two guys to actually make them for you yeah to actually make them and so you know we spoke to i think 24 factories rejected us and just said it was impossible um and candidly you know after the 24th rejection i was thinking yeah i'm not i'm not even sure this is possible maybe we should compromise on certain areas but to your credit i mean 24 is quite a lot of rejections yeah you didn't yeah i think i think you kept going i kept going you know i think i'm i i became very good at rejection as a young man from an early age but um but truly actually some of the best sales people i've ever met are people who've done door-to-door sales and just learning that rejection isn't it's not a personal thing it's not you know it's not it's not you as a person that's being rejected it's it's you know maybe the way the proposition is or maybe it's not the right offer for the person and so i think having developed quite a thick skin like as an early age i'm i don't mind taking risks and i don't mind people you know saying no um but giv is is incredibly stubborn you know when he says something is possible you know a million people could tell him it's it's not possible and he'll still believe it is possible unfortunately you He said, let's try one more. So fortunately, we got to the 25th supplier, and they said yes. They were willing to take that risk. And so we'd started with the insights. Then we had looked at the materials. Then we fortunately created a design, and a huge stroke of luck, we found a world-class industrial designer who'd just graduated from a university in California and was about to join one of the world's leading design firms, and he was in between jobs. so you know we found him through an online recruitment uh platform and so he was an industrial designer he was yeah and and he he just created this beautiful design and then joined our company subsequently and didn't go to that large design firm and so so he's still with you that was a stroke of luck uh he still is an advisor with us um but he's he's moved back to america and so it's you know a combination of luck stubbornness determination and and you know willing supplier you know who we built this relationship with that brought this product which maybe didn't want to come to life to come to life so i mean it's interesting to me as well i mean it's a premium product isn't it it's not cheap no so how much would one of these typically retail so um at full price is 105 pounds and then occasionally we will um run a special discount so you know it might be around like black friday or or certain times of the year so that people can get maybe you know 15 percent or or even you know at very peak times maybe a 25 discount and so although it sort of sits at a premium end of toothbrushes there are some brushes believe it or not which retail at 600 and so they then appear often in shops at 70% off, 80% off we feel strongly that it's a little bit deceptive to have a product at this high price but actually sell it at a low price and potentially a little bit confusing for a shopper and so we wanted to have a better everyday price with shallower discounts but that was quite brave as well wasn't it pitching into that part of the market as a new entrant yes no no definitely it's it's you know it's a challenge because we want to really make suri accessible to as many people but we also knew that we we had to launch with you know a really great product um give to his credit you know in software people talk about an mvp the minimum viable product which i think in software makes total sense you know get something live you know get feedback iterate it because you can change it quickly. With hardware, it's really different. You have one chance to make a first impression, a second impression. And so we wanted to create a minimum lovable product because we knew that if we could create something that people truly loved and described it in those words, that we could build a brand. And I'm really glad to say the thing that I think we're most proud of, bar none, is that we have now over 17,000 reviews on Trustpilot with a 4.7 out of 5 rating, making it by far the most highly rated electric brush on Trustpilot and the most AI thing I've ever done. I don't know if you're big into AI. Trying to be. Yeah, trying to be. Me too. And so the most AI thing that I think we've done recently is we downloaded all of our Trustpilot reviews and created a custom GPT so that we could talk to the GPT like it was all the people who reviewed us. And we could ask it questions. We can interpret the data. We can ask all sorts of different things for different reasons. but one of the questions we ask is you know what's the most commonly used word to describe surrey in all the reviews yes and the word is love all right and i mean you know so your minimum lovable products really delivered then well it really has and the funny thing is you know i i love our product but you know it's such a joy to know that other people and they say you know i never thought i could love brushing my teeth or you know i love the brand i love the product i love the service and the result of that is if you love something do you know what you do you you tell other people you love about it and so most of our customers are are actually you know an excuse a pun they come from word of mouth and and it's a good pun yeah i mean i've got plenty more but scalable and so um you know what we see is you know one person in the family will buy it but then invariably they'll buy it for their their mother their father their brother their sister their son their daughter their grandparent because everyone brushes their teeth and you know it's such a nice thing you know you're using it twice a day you can think of them it's good for their health um you know it's a reasonable price point and it's something that you love like you enjoy using it and so it's it's a really nice byproduct to know that you know that intention that we set out and through all the details that we painstakingly look at has translated into this emotion which ultimately you know what what a joy so if someone listening or watching wants to find a suri brush doesn't know where to go where can they find these where can they buy them sure so they can buy them from our website try suri.com they can buy them from amazon they can buy them from boots uh recently from john lewis from curry's from planet organic there's a few other retailers i can't say right now but maybe appearing on their shelves soon and then for our for our us cousins and friends um you know you can buy them in target you can buy them in errone stores which is a fancy store in la and watch this space because there may be some other u.s retailers so you're building your distribution network obviously yes but suri.com try suri.com try suri.com okay unfortunately we haven't got the suri.com domain names rumor has it that tom cruise whose daughter is called suri is sitting on it but i don't know if that's true okay well tom if your listing you might have a buyer yeah so so try suri.com yes okay that's that and amazon is obviously easy for people to find and suri spell s-u-r-i yeah so where next with this where next so if you brush your teeth i think we we want to be helping you in some way and that doesn't matter you know where you live or what age you are you know we want to create solutions which really deliver on on the suri promise which is really around three core pillars performance you know giving you a really highly effective clinically proven dentist approved clean design products that not only look great but have great features that you want long battery life pressure sensors you know the ube light the battery last it's over four weeks on a single charge right which you know you shouldn't have to worry about your battery dying all the time instead you should just be focused on brushing your teeth and getting on with your day but then also sustainability we offer free recycling um actually we you know if you write free post surrey that and put your heads into an envelope they come back to us we then have worked with the university of exeter and others to actually doing a partnership with a company called reborn we grind them up and then we re-injection mold them and create new products so soap trays so 18 of our heads is then turned into a soap tray which we then sell and so by doing so we've we've removed in the last year three tons of potential plastic heads from you know landfills and oceans and instead have you know breathed new life into them right so there's a huge amount there um you're i mean i'm thinking you're competing in a pretty crowded space with you against huge companies like philips um i mean that's quite a brave thing to sort of decide to do but I suppose the upside is you know there's a market for this I mean you know that people are going to be brushing their teeth so what was the thinking here because part of it looks it's a defended hill as I would describe it in a sense because there are big companies that are already delivering these products well so a few things I think I think maybe I'm just quite a I think I'm quite a basic person I'm just real business 101 stuff So, you know, ask customers what they like and what they don't like. Think of a large addressable market. How many people do you know who brush their teeth? Yeah. It's everyone. And it's everyone in every country in some form, right? It is one of the most commonly, you know, done habits on a daily. Not everyone washes their hair every day, you know. There are not many categories with higher penetration than brushing your teeth. And as you say, rightly, in the electric toothbrush space, two companies hold an 80% market share. Now, can you think of another? So those two are? Oral B and Philips. Oral B and Philips. Yeah. Now, we're really lucky. The former global CEO of Philips, Sinead Quant, is on our board. Right. And we have great advisors from a range of different oral care companies of different shapes and sizes. and so we have a really expert team along with a dental professional team we have a dental advisory board of some of the leading voices from hygienists you know the former head of the british dental hygienist association um one of the lead um professors and former scientific advisor to british dental association we have you know the judge of dentist of the i mean really you know leading industry people along with policymakers you know who who are looking at How do we inform public health policy around dental care supporting us? And so I think it kind of talks to our ambition and our vision, which is, yes, there are two very well people with a defended hill but as of today if you were to look on amazon we are the number one best sonic toothbrush on the market right we outsell you know in the sonic category of which one of those two players plays we outsell every other product and that's within you know four short years and so if we can replicate that across every market where people brush their teeth you can kind of get the idea of the scale of the opportunity in our ambition Sure, sure. So, I mean, Amazon is a good outlet for global growth. It is, yeah. So how do you move from the UK to, say, France? With Amazon specifically or just generally? Is Amazon the route to do that or would you do it differently? So I think AI is changing things so rapidly. You know, I was in Hong Kong a couple of weeks ago with a range of founders who are in their 20s and they're based all around the world. And they're scaling companies to 100, 200 million dollars bootstrapped with no external investment within, you know, an 18 month period. My mind's blown. Like, how on earth do you guys do that? We're growing quickly, but that is another level. So how are they doing that? And it's through AI, you know. They can roll out multi-market through all of their ads, videos, voice, text can be translated seamlessly into other languages. I think 11 Labs are doing some pretty incredible stuff with language, which opens up the possibility of new markets much more quickly. So are you envisaging a world in which AI does your marketing? I don't think AI... Or sales or both? I don't think AI will, in our example, replace us. I think of it more as an accelerant. So, you know, our team will be able to achieve more. You know, it's a bit like, you know, maybe before you had a horse and now you have a car. You know, AI is the car that can help you get further, faster. And so, you know, we're really lucky to have, you know, a team of really ambitious, hungry individuals who are eager to learn. And it's just like week on week, I just see this sort of improvement and skill that each individual is having by using AI to enhance what they're doing to sort of move more quickly or move more thoroughly yeah so you so I like that description of AI as an accelerant that's how you see it so your business has grown I believe very rapidly over those four or five years was it are you 50 million plus in sales now yes so so this year we'll do over 50 million and that'll be in our fourth year. So, I mean, that's a rapid growth, I would say, in a non-AI context. I mean, you've quoted people who are growing faster, but congratulations. That's very substantial in my view. Thank you. Yeah, and you're saying you've got a really good team who are obviously critical to this success. They are fundamental. I mean, truly recruitment is everything for us. The way we achieve the scale of ambitions is through great people, through great people, great processes, accelerants like AI, and setting that vision. So it's funny, we have had incredible growth to now in our first four years, but also I don't feel we're scratching the surface of what we can do and what we will do in the coming years. You know, we're, you know, I would say 1% in to, you know. The potential. The potential, really, when you look at, you know, the size of the market, the size of the categories that we play in. And, you know, there are our new product development plans. So, you know, we know sort of what we want to do in that time. And now it's really about, you know, how do we get the right people on board? people who share our values people who you know want to kind of build what what we want to build together so this is prompting more questions i mean the the people critical as you said what do you look for in the people so we have uh four key values that we sort of established as a company and that is one of the key uh routes in which we recruit key ways in which we recruit so we're looking for people to have demonstrated, you know, in their prior experience, whether it's in their career or otherwise, you know, some of these key values. What are they? So one is, you know, we're caring and respectful. And that's really for each other as a company, but also for our suppliers. That's for our customers. And it's also for the planet, you know, in terms of our mission. So we really always seek to work in that way, because we want to create a good environment. At the same time, our second value is we're hungry for results. And it really is that hunger to drive results and be a results-orientated company in person and to seek new and better ways to achieve your goals faster or in a bigger way. in that respect one thing that we've done i think which has worked is we often look at people who maybe have been like uh athletes in some way or continue to be so one of our teams she used to play basketball for portugal another person was i think the the rowing under 20 champion and still holds a record to this day one of my one of my team is a professional referee i mean he literally you know is doing the playoff in uh league one just last weekend and manages to do his day job as well. So what we find is those people just are hungry for results and have in their lives, you know, shown a level of determination to succeed and to win. And then the other two, which are equally important is we do more with less. You know, we can't, you know, if we were to try and take on our competitors pound for pound, person for person, you know, we'd be crushed instantly because obviously we're much smaller with less resources and therefore it's much more important that you know we use creator's law to find the 80 20 and to focus our our sort of smaller resources on on the point of maximum leverage and that's you know something that we instill culturally in everything we do whether it's the office we choose or you know how much ink we buy for the printer i know it sounds silly but you know it's really every single element and then the last one is with the kind of growth that we're experiencing, the fourth value is we're always innovating. And that's not just for the innovation team and the product team. That is, how do we need to innovate on our processes, on how we recruit, on how we onboard, how do we innovate in how we communicate and how we upskill on AI? How do we constantly, I want everyone to have that sort of ownership to challenge how do we do things in a better way and you know we in we empower and reward people for that you know through their annual reviews we have monthly awards for people who've demonstrated the values um and we recruit on it so i think you know it's certainly having the right effect so these sound like very clear simple strong values to me where did they come from how did you come up with these four i think it's a process of um iteration like this you know it took us a couple two two three years to get to this where we you know we tried this model and actually it wasn't really working or we weren't implementing it or it wasn't clear enough and i think you know procter and gamble have very clear uh what they call pvps and it's something that we saw pvp uh purpose values and principles i believe right okay um and they have you know very clear framework but i think that was a very effective way you know again that's an organization that's existed for over 100 years that you know has scaled multiple brands globally and i think you know some of their frameworks are really great and so i really do think we you know when we look at companies we admire a lot of them do have you know some core values did you guys use that yeah we do yeah i i can tell you we have three ah what are your three we're fair open and honest we take ownership and we work together yeah and our purpose is improving lives through work and i really really um find them important and helpful and i was listening to you thinking yours are great you know i was thinking if i'd like to work for an organization you know that has values like yours as i like working for an organization that has values like ours but and that's important isn't it it is speaks to the people in the in the company it's funny because as well you can sort of tell when someone says them like whether they you know in their body believe in them and and it's very obvious with you you do believe in it do you want to be in and i think having having that level of certainty and belief in your purpose and in your values people see that and feel it it's authentic and it gives you that extra drive and push i think at the end of the day because yeah that going back to my prior experience there has to be more than just you know i'm doing this for the financial you're you're you're sort of quite early in your corporate journey as you know suri's five years old am i four four actually we uh next i think yesterday was our and next excuse the next pun our fourth anniversary oh i'm sorry anniversary okay but just four so a youngster but this is when your culture gets sort of established as a founding entrepreneur hasn't chat yeah but this is and culture is so important in business and what i particularly notice talking to you is how much attention you're giving that and how important that is to you and i would say that's a really good thing to do from my own experience and look thank you james but one thing i will say is like we're far from perfect and and you know do we always get it do we always get it yeah no yeah perfection is elusive yeah i mean like these are our values and these are our guiding lights and you know sometimes sometimes we get it wrong and then sometimes you know we so do you think the values are fixed or evolving then because for me in our business they're kind of fixed or now i don't propose to change them i i would say ours are relatively fixed values but it's more that you know you know are we always doing more with less you know actually are you living up to them are we living up to them yeah that's a different point and that's a different that's it and so you know this is what we want to achieve and this is us at our best and you know if we if we do fall short of it then yeah we need to course correct and it kind of gives us guidance for you know what we want to do and where we want to go back towards but like we're constantly trying to you know work as best as we can within within this yeah so so your team is is 50 people is that right about 50 people about 50 people producing 50 million that's quite a lot of income per head i mean they're obviously highly productive we are very highly productive you know i again it is everything you know they say comparisons the thief of joy but i've met a few companies recently who are leveraging i are doing eight million per head and so comparisons the thief of joy yeah i like that phrase i haven't heard it but it can be yeah yeah don't spend too much time doing that yeah but you know what like for me i think some people yeah i i don't know if you find this but some people i've noticed you know if they see someone doing better than them that makes them feel bad about themselves for me i i i it sort of excites and energizes me to see what's possible and then it's sort of like it lights something up in my mind to think like oh wow i like i hadn't even thought that was possible a bit like the four minute mile with roger bannister do you remember like no you know before that no one had ever done it and then you know within a few months after he did it you know several people had done it because he'd broken this mental hurdle of what's possible and so i think i i see these incredible people doing this in e-commerce challenging you know really ripping up the rule but with ai to to what's possible so you know it is relatively efficient you know what we're doing now but again i i think i think there's so much more we could be doing we just had the less than two hour marathon yeah and i think the guy who came second and third also beat the right they were so keen to keep up with the one who broke the record so yeah that's true yeah so suri is obviously growing rapidly do you do you think as a brand it's going to remain focused on dental oral care or you do you have other ambitions to widen it what are your thoughts around how to take the brand forward sure so i think one thing i would say first is i i read somewhere that um there's this entrepreneur in my called ben francis who built gym shark yes and they talk about building this 100 year brand and you know really thinking about things like with like a very long-term view and so from a surrey perspective you know oral care as a total is 145 billion dollar category and you know at the moment we're in you know one sub segment of oral care in in a couple of markets and you know i think something that's helped us is being relatively focused in what we're doing rather than trying to do a lot too many things at once i really admire people who can do you know 10 different businesses or 100 different categories i'm i think i maybe i'm just a little bit simple but you know just doing one thing i find pretty challenging yes and And so I think, you know, for the foreseeable future, you know, I think there's a lot of things that we could do in oral care. But ultimately, whatever we do, you know, we'll ladder back to some of the core things we want to deliver, which is, you know, a great customer experience where, you know, it's a 4.7 or 4.8 or a 5 out of 5 experience from, you know, a product quality and performance. You know, is the product effective? Does it have a, you know, great design with features that people really want? And is it, you know, a more sustainable option? And I think if we can deliver, you know, that experience, it doesn't matter whether it's, you know, a toothbrush or something else. Hopefully it should deliver really great value to the consumer. Yeah, well, that's clear. I mean, do you think sustainability is still a differentiator for you? Is that still, do you think that will be enduringly important or do you think that will just become a given in the space? I think and hope that it will become a given in the space. You know, if you look at like a long term, you know, in 100 years time, are we going to be more or less aware of climate change? You know, there's some people who say both. My bet is that we will be more aware of climate change at a, you know. We in terms of the people on the planet at that point. People on the planet, yeah. I mean, like that's my guess. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think there's a lot of evidence that would suggest that climate change is real and that the consequences of it each year are increasing. And so if you think about that over 100 years, 200 years, 300 years, and we're trying to think far out, as it becomes more increasingly important, I think there will be a more awareness of the effects of climate change. I think people will sort of be rethinking more and more. And I think, you know, even if you look at like children nowadays, you know, are probably more aware of these issues than maybe generations previously. And so I think as you think about those consumers and their lives, more people will be demanding that, you know, this sort of concept of trying to be as sustainable as possible will become more important. And so I hope it becomes like a standard. I mean, you really are thinking about a hundred year brand, aren't you? Yeah. you're the first person i've spoken to who's doing that so congratulations because i think it's so interesting yeah i mean to take it that i mean you've come across business plans that are five ten twenty years ahead but a hundred is striking you know what ai is going to do lots of things it's not going to brush your teeth so i think you know i think people will still need to brush their teeth and and and that is a long-term bet and and a long-term way of thinking but you know i think people will still need jobs you know i think you know people so do i improving lives you know people need jobs and and you know whether that's for financial reasons or actually for fulfillment you know i i just think that is a right long-term bet and it doesn't matter where you are people will need to do that and so i think that that is a an industry and a business built on on something that is extremely long term but so do you envisage your business becoming a family business because it's it feels i mean we don't live long enough to build a hundred year brand by ourselves so is this a multi-generational effort you're thinking about or is it done in some other way you become a philanthropy company build a foundation or what so because there's a legacy here for you isn't there and your colleagues and co-founder yeah you've obviously given consideration to well so like for us for me the legacy is is truly improving oral health outcomes and building something that consumers love such that it sort of lives independently of myself or my peers or my future generations It truly is trying to deliver value into the world and for consumers everywhere, be they young or old or male or female. It really is like, what if we can improve people's lives and then do something a bit more sustainably for the future? And I think we want that to continue. And I'm very open as to sort of what that needs to look like and who it benefits. But I think someone very wise once said that, you know, one of the purposes of business is to create excess wealth for charity. And charity, therefore, requires business. and I think you know it's uh it's a nice sentiment um that I believe in you know it's like you can do more good in the world if if you can you know use business as a force for good no I agree with you I agree with you so what what did you learn from your previous business journey what maybe mistakes that you made that you're sort of careful not to make again or that might be helpful for other people to be aware of so pitfalls to avoid how long do you have like we could do another five hours on this but it's useful i mean it's no no totally you're being very candid so why not look i totally honestly i i am you know i could talk about the mistakes i made today it's like i am constantly making mistakes and moving at speed and trying to make the right decisions and often making the wrong ones and i find that you know there's different types of someone described it the other day, I thought it was quite a good way of describing decisions as, is it a hat, a haircut, or a tattoo? What on earth does that mean? Well, it's like, well, with a hat, you can just put it on and off, take it on and off, and there's no consequences instant, you know, fine. Some decisions are easily reversible. A haircut, you know, might take you like a couple of months to like, you know, grow back out your hair or whatever, but... In my case. Well, but you know what I mean? It's not a permanent, it's, you know, like you'll live with a consequence for a little bit, whether tattoos are much you know it's a more permanent decision and so i think i try and you know learn by solving lots of problems constantly and getting it wrong but i think momentum and making a decision is often better than spending too much time making do you ask yourself that question is it a hat a haircut or a tattoo when you're facing a decision yeah well i don't constantly ask that question anymore but i am thinking like you know sometimes my team will you know be preparing a lot of information to make a decision i'm thinking actually you know what like it's good get on with this one it's this is actually one that you know if it's wrong we can change it back and you know it like there will be no consequence and it would actually be better use of time for everyone to sort of make decision learn what the consequences were and then potentially revert if it's a hat decision um there are some which you have to live with for longer so maybe um you know even packaging you know we spend a lot of time thinking about packaging but to a certain extent you know we can relatively quickly change the sleeve this outer part if we need to so you know there's not that many things that are truly permanent but those ones you do want to put more consideration in time yeah i mean i suppose you could have a severe haircut couldn't you it took a take a while to grow back but there aren't many tattoo decisions you think there aren't but sometimes in my prior life to continue the analogy i've i've treated a tattoo decision with a hat type mentality of like oh you know this will be fine and then you know oh actually i should have really read that contract you know and and really understood what i was signing up to and so i think i've definitely at times um gone too fast when i should have gone slower and and gone too slow when i should have gone faster and i think that's been it's such a cliche you know higher slow fire fast but it's a cliche for a reason you know it's it's it's come to high and slow fire fast yeah talk me through that well uh as a recruiter i like to hit the detail yeah well i think you know i'm i'm i'm sure you must have come across this um both yourself and and you know with those you help find jobs but the the consequences and distraction from having the wrong people in the wrong fit not not because they're a bad person but maybe they're just not the right cultural fit or you know it's a wrong time for them to join your company um it is it has a huge knock-on impact i think in your business and distraction and and heartache um between you that is disproportionate to taking that extra bit of time to find the right person and or when you identify that the right person is sorry when you identify that the person's not the right fit to actually have the courage and conviction to sort of call it early because actually often it's better both for the employee and for yourself. Yeah. Have you ever found that? Yeah. Well, one of my daughters has just done a 14 interview hiring process. I just completed it. So I was beginning to think that's kind of too many. But she got the job. She got the job. I was going to say, if she didn't get the job, what have you been doing? I hope she invoiced them for their time. It's a good job. She's delighted she's got it. But a 14 interview, that was definitely hiring slow. But when you say fire fast, are you meaning when you first have some reservations about someone? Or what's that actually mean? So I don't think it's about, you know, oh, have a reservation, knee-jerk reaction. I don't think it's just, you know, don't give people the time of day. It's absolutely not that. And I can see how it could be easily misconstrued, taken the wrong way. I think it's more that, you know, there can come a point where, you know, you are very aware that it's not working. You've maybe had a conversation with this person. You've tried to put in place processes to help them improve. It's still not working. And at times, you know, it can be easier just to say, you know what, I'm going to deal with this later because I'm dealing with this issue here, this issue here, this issue here. maybe this one will just it won't, it'll resolve itself somehow basically it's a version of putting your head in the sand and not dealing with something that will cause you short term pain for long term benefit and I think it's easy to Well no one likes those conversations I suppose neither the person giving the news or the person receiving it and I think that's definitely one element but I also do think you know there's there's that human instinct to like you know what to focus on on short-term benefits versus long-term benefits you know what i mean and that you know that's true in all sorts of areas of life and i think it's also true in this area where you know it is hard emotionally having that conversation it can be hard if you have a gap in your business it can be hard you know because you'll have to take on extra work or you don't know the solution or there's a level of uncertainty of that world without that person um versus the known sort of not ideal world with the person but i think time has shown me that it's you know it is really better for everyone to have the short-term pain for the the long-term right fit for both parties my father said to me many years ago that he never wanted to have to cross the road when he saw someone coming the other way he used to work with him yeah and i've carried that forward myself i think it's really important to treat people respectfully in these situations but the match isn't always there is it's not always a good fit yeah and if there's not if it's not a good match i think it's better to address it for everyone it is it's hard i still get christmas cards from people that i've had difficult conversations with years ago i've gone on and done great things elsewhere are very happy exactly and again it's it's almost like you know coming back to that bit about rejection you know it rejection you know it feels very personal um but it doesn't have to be it you know you know not everyone is the right person to invest in surrey and that's okay no and sometimes circumstances are just tough you know it's a difficult environment for business so that's that's another uh challenge um so what do you think the next generation of consumer brands will need to be doing to get it right i mean you're you're leading the way with sustainability yeah are the things that follow it in your view that you see coming soon again i'm i'm a simple guy but i i sometimes think simple advice is the best which is you know if you listen to consumers and you ask them questions and you truly sort of listen and find a large pool of consumers who have things they don't like about their existing solution and you can solve those pain points with a new product, fundamentally you will have a strong business. And if you can find a problem that lots of people have, you will have a larger business. Solving people's problems in the end is what this is about. Solving people's problems. Finding a problem that, you know, if you're really good at solving a problem, but only 100 people have that problem, your business is going to be constrained somewhat by the number of people who have the problem and the addressable market. You know, I think that's where, you know, a business like yours, you know, who needs a job? Virtually everybody. And there's a constant flow of people who need a new job or who want to love Mondays, who want to be more fulfilled. and so there's a brand who i think are incredible you should get this guy on your podcast i don't know you know like and uh we always like recommendations oh yeah so word of mouth as you say well quite and he's he's doing the rounds at the moment and he has scaled a company i believe in three years to a billion dollars in sales with no external funding selling hoodies right right hoodies who would have thought you could build a billion dollar brand in a few short years selling hoodies. And the way he's gone about it, and it's something that he's quite public about talking about is that he's not just building hoodies, but he suffered from anxiety and he wanted a product that would help him in some way with his anxiety. So actually what he's selling is here's a solution to anxiety, not here's a nice looking top you can wear. And it turns out a lot of people have that same feeling. And, you know, there's just this enormous market of people who have anxiety. And so actually, if you, you know, it's a classic example of he's found, you know, a huge market of people who share this problem. And he's found a solution and a product that helps them to address that, you know, at a great price point. That looks good. And, you know, delivers all the features. And, you know, there's lots of tactics he's used which have helped him scale really quickly. but the fundamental is sort of there. And so I think my advice to any consumer would be look at the fundamentals. Think about whose problem you're solving, how much of a problem is it, how good is your solution. As a startup or a new venture. How many people are there? But it's interesting that hoodies are actually a solution to anxiety. Exactly. I mean, that's unexpected, isn't it? It's unexpected to me and to most people, but you know. But clearly it works. Clearly it works. Yeah. So your product, I mean, taking that theme further a little bit, your product sit at the sort of intersection of wellness, sustainability, consumer tech. Health. Health. Which category are you really in? I don't know that we would sort of define ourselves as like we are in this category. We're in all of those categories. I think we're ultimately in the category of rituals, you know, things that you do on a daily basis. That's what we want to improve with a more sustainable, performance-driven solution. And I think, yeah, that's where we want to play. Thank you for clarifying that because I was going to ask you why it was called sustainable rituals. That's something you do every day. That's the reason why. And? Who thought of that? That was Geeve. that like he even honestly that like when when he you know he shared the idea with me and said suri it's short for sustainable rituals and he explained this concept of like why don't we take people's everyday rituals and improve them with products that they love to use which are more sustainable for the planet and which are really effective and when you think about that it's like wow that that's a mission i can really believe in that's better for people better for health better for the planet and ultimately is you know it's this big sort of area that we could help to improve well congratulations i mean this chance encounter between you and geave all those years ago has led to all sorts of good things hasn't it likewise the chance encounter when i was burned out and you know looking for inspiration as to you know what i could do and the kind of business leader i could be with you and i'm sure you meet lots of people and it might not have been as profound for you at the time but but for me as as a young entrepreneur seeing someone like yourself who's you know led with uh you know great values and and you know done it multi-generationally it was truly inspirational and i think you you can learn from every encounter you know it's uh the chance encounter with give but you know chance encounter with a a random consumer has helped shape you know the direction of our product development so i'm always looking for those where i can learn from well it's very kind of you to say that mark but i mean what we're encouraging here is chance encounters all right yeah get out there get out there and meet people absolutely and you never know where a conversation might lead totally and um yeah well thank you for coming in and uh sharing your story thanks which is wonderful and um also leaving some toothbrushes yeah which um will do me no end of good i'm sure thanks so much at the end of the um conversation i always ask two questions um and the first no surprise because here at reed we love mondays is what gets you up on a monday morning uh my four-year-old daughter runs into my room and jumps on my head and pulls my ears and says wake up daddy so that that's the literal version do that uh normally at about 5 50 right um which is great you know just before the business yeah ready ready to go um honestly though i i i i'm truly grateful and i love every day i i'm i'm so grateful to just be able to experience my family my my my beautiful wife who's incredible support and you know has enabled all of this um and then to be able to do something that i love with with a team of highly dedicated passionate people it's just i it's i i'm truly grateful to to be able to experience it all well thank you for sharing that And the last question from my interview book, Why You, is where do you see yourself in five years' time? Where do I see myself in five years' time? So in five years' time, I think my children will be 11 and 9. So it's almost half term. So in five years' time, literally, I'll be preparing to go, hopefully, on a holiday to get some sunshine and spend some quality time with the kids. and maybe go down to the coast and build some sandcastles. And hopefully I'll still be continuing the Surrey mission, expanding it globally, and delighting customers with products that they love to use. Well, the great thing about your product is you'll be able to take it to the beach with you. Yeah. So thank you so much. Fantastic. I wish you every success, and I hope that vision for five years' time absolutely comes true. Why not, right? Yeah, why not? Thank you. Thanks for coming in, Mark. Good to talk to you. Cheers. Thank you, Mark, for joining me on All About Business. I'm your host, James Reid, chairman and CEO of Reid, a family-run recruitment and philanthropy company. If you'd like to find out more about Suri or Reid, you'll find all the links in the show notes. Thank you for listening and see you next time. Thank you.