Hi everyone! Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vizchen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change, for aggressive, in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today's guest is Jivan Wooden. Army veteran, leadership coach, and someone whose story grabs you from the very first moment. A 17, he was phasing prison time. A few years later, he was leading soldiers in combat. In this two-part series, Jivan shares how trauma shaped his purpose, how empathy became his ralogy, and why he now house leaders build emotional intelligence like the careers depend on it. Because they do. Let's jump in! So, you stayed in the army for over 10 years? Is that right? Yep, I was in there for 12 years. And my last deployment was probably not probably the hardest thing, because this is one of the reasons why I knew my body couldn't handle it mentally and emotionally. So I was in Afghanistan in 2016-2017, and there was a suicide bombing that happened where I was stationed on Bagram Pierfield. And the suicide bombing was on Better Insta. So, Better Insta had been a very hard time since then. We lost 6 or 7 people, and then 18 others at least got injured. But, of course, mentally and emotionally, those of us who survived or who wasn't hard physically, that plays a toll on you. And then I was a part of the remains cleanup team where that's what mentally really hit me hard, because I'm like, I'm treating the bomber with the same respect that my friends, and my comrades, and my colleagues, that he killed. And that was another affection point for me, because I went out at home from that deployment in 2017, I just wasn't out the same. And it hit me like 6 months later. Here I am, after that I took some time to just like travel and get back into the space of civilian life, and it just didn't work. 6 months later, I'd struggle severely with depression and PTSD, kept having the same nightmare over and over again. And at the end of that nightmare, it was a red flash. I just remember the red flash. It was the detonation from the bomb. And I had to go to therapy, and the therapist once asked me, she said, what happens at the end? I said, I don't know, it doesn't end. Once the flash happens, I wake up. And she was like, I want you to see that as something that's saying that there's something unfinished in your life. So she gave me this whole exercise to find what was unfinished. And this ties back into my childhood, because what was unfinished was my relationship with my father. And then I hadn't been a touch with him. He actually got arrested while I was with him. So that was where unestablished relationship. Swap team jumps out while we're at the gas station, and they put me down on the ground. I thought it was something I did, but it wasn't. So it was him. So fast forward, I had to reestablish that relationship with my father. And that nightmare stopped since then. And what ended another change? My daughter, it was born on veteran's day. So it went from the worst day to the best day. And that's just how things happened, right? That's saying, different moments that are really needed to now with all the change in adversity that has gone through throughout my life. From what I know, the military really shaved you, taught you leadership, exposed you to all kinds of people and pressure. Most of us never experienced that. We worked in stable, quiet, and peaceful environments. You didn't just learn resilience. You lived it. These days, a lot of people talk about resilience. The feel have actually worked that path. I've had my own struggles, including three episodes of depression, but nothing like what you've gone through physically or mentally. So I'm curious. Was that what led you to become a coach and speaker on emotional intelligence? Did all of that push you to help others this way? That's the component of it for sure. That's everything that I've seen and gone through and realizing that tech was just not there wasn't my thing. I didn't feel like I was making an impact in that. So I wanted to really help people. And so that was one catalyst. And then the other one is when I look at, when I look at the world from this lens that I have, see that the biggest cause of all the issues we are facing is connection. Human is going out the window for a lot of leaders, whether that's in the country level, whether it's in the corporate space, doesn't matter. It's like going away. I mean, yes, we can blame technology, but it's not technology can be a actually legally a force multiplier. So speak because we can we can do this right. I can see no matter where you are. We can have these conversations. But that's just a scapegoat that I see people use. It really is people are not taking the time. They're not putting in the effort to make genuine connections. And so what have you done for me lately society? It's a, oh, I'm going to blame this thing and that thing is that it's taking accountability and taking ownership of what I can do to improve the situation in my company. Those types of things. So that's really what sparked me to really dig into this and research all of this stuff and start speaking on the topic and coaching and everything else. And the reason why I focus on like readers specifically and it is because that that trick was down. So if you have a leader that is not emotionally intelligent that does not show empathy that does not care take care of those people. I've seen the cause of that. And the cause of that a lot of people are like, oh, you just leave a job. You just do this and then you go to your normal like that's not what happens. That is impacting people's lives that is causing people to take their lives. Opioid addiction is at an all time high substance abuse is out is crazy right now in a lot of industries. So that's really what has caused me to do this. Like I've lost a lot of friends to suicide. And when I look back at it, a lot of them didn't show any signs. That because in the military, you're just taught to you show this for some I'm good. They say if you're in the pain, you break your leg, you drink water. And that's the that was an mentality. Even the military has had to change their culture because they realize that what they were doing just does not work because we are humans. We have emotions. And when you get way down and you go into that darkness is very hard to get out of as well. I don't want people to get into that darkness. Or when they start to feel like for the light is leaving a little bit, I want them to realize that they can get support that they don't have to walk that walk alone. That they are people who really care and support genuinely that it love is not just a business strategy, but it's a human thing. So all these things really just drive me and keep me going and have caused me to want to double down on this emotional intelligence thing. You've worked with a lot of corporate leaders without naming names. What kind of issues are they phasing? You can give me a general overview or if there's one story that really captures it. Feel free to share that too. A lot of us were taught to show strength to always act like we've got it together. And many things resilience means just powering through. But we both know that it's only part of the picture. So I love to hear what are these leaders struggling with and how do you help them shift their mindset or approach? Absolutely. In the US, the construction space has been that's one of the industries that is going through all these issues that I've just mentioned. Now with corporations and leaders, typically they're focused on like the bottom line. So everything I do has to tie into that right, profitability, right employee engagement, retention, etc. So everything I do is under the guise of those right. And so I'll come in and I'll speak about emotional intelligence. I let them know that's that's a byproduct of taking care of your people. So results over people is no longer the way or it's not going to work. People aren't going to stay in places that they don't feel valued, etc. But what I like to do is I like to take statistics. I like to show them statistics of how if they continue on this path, I was going to impact their people, them and their companies. So that statistic I mentioned of suicide, right construction industry is second only to the mining and oil and gas industry here in the United States to to suicides and opioid addiction. So that's one of the first things I want to show. And then once I do that, it shows them like empathy and all these things that I'm talking about is relevant. Right. So that's the first thing I second thing is I show them what it looks like because there's a misconception that being empathetic is weak. They're like, oh, if I'm empathetic, then I'm just going to get walked all over. So I have to dispel that. So I have to show them my empathy is actually the opposite because empathy is holding yourself and that person accountable. It's the ability to see and understand their perspective and standpoint and get to the point where you can ask them questions that clarified what's going on. What do they need to feel supported? What do they need to succeed to have foresight to say they're going to need these resources. Put yourself in a shoes to get these things done. They're going to need support from you. And a lot of leaders just don't have that type of vision. So I really help them to see how empathy taps into their daily operations. How it can improve, for instance, supply chain. If you're not, if you don't have an inclusive space, you're skipping over people who may have better ideas than you do as the leadership committee. You're not giving people their voice. You're not able to see the diamonds that you have within your organization because they don't look like you. So all those things, right, all those things are part of emotional intelligence. Like I mentioned earlier realizing my biases, looking in the role and saying, okay, everyone looks like me. So how are we getting the best diverse perspectives? All those things tie into emotional intelligence. So if you're going to really create the spaces that organizations have been talking about, especially now with the I initiative is being rolled back, we have to say what exactly where those initiatives for. Because the work was not about hiring unqualified people into roles. It was about amplifying given people opportunities who deserve those opportunities. But to see it, you have to listen. You have to take a step back and not feel like you have to have all the answers. You have to be willing to try different things and take calculated risks, right? You have to be willing to invest in your people and realize that the whatever result you want it will not happen. You don't take care of your people because if your people are not at your, that they're best, you cannot get the best results. So these are a lot of things that I work on, but it's always tied to the bottom line initially until I come in with them. Same thing with coaching leaders are under the perception that they cannot be empathetic and that they need to make decisions fast and all these other things. I showed them case studies on what that looks like. So if you think about Microsoft, for instance, when sought yet, Nadella became the CEO, right? He didn't just go in there and make sweeping changes. He actually listened to his people saw what they thought, right? He went to different locations and all the other stuff. The CEO of Best Buy did the same thing. He went to different stores, got ideas from them for the people who were doing the work, everything. That's empathetic leadership. That's transformational leadership. They're really synonymous. So that's how I do the work these days. Let me ask you this. Empathy. You've mentioned that word a few times already and I want to zoom in on it for a moment. We all say is important. We know it matters. But the truth is, empathy is hard. Hard to develop, hard to sustain. Because at the end of the day, we are wired to look at the world from our own lens. We are naturally self focused. It's just how we're built. And sometimes people even confuse empathy with sympathy. So I love to hear your take. How do you help leaders who struggle with empathy? Can you share an example? Maybe a CEO or someone in senior role who came to you? Stuck? And how do you help them really understand and practice empathy in a meaningful way in a business setting? And I'm glad you bring this up. So again, empathy is really counterintuitive. It's to our normal human condition. Because you really have to stop and pause and say, you know, I'm going to go out on the limb. I don't feel safe doing this action. But I know I need to do it. For instance, like giving someone delegation. Delegation is a part of empathetic leadership and a lot of these struggle with letting go of that control. So that aspect is counterintuitive to what they're used to. So for instance, I have a leader. He's a CMO for a company. And I've been coaching him. And he comes off just brash. Quite frankly, they say he's an asshole at work. And his leader came to me. She said, you know what? This is his last shot. Really? This world has to find someone else. I don't want to because he does great work. But he's really making it hard for everyone else. Like the culture is just suffering because of the way he comes at it. He's apathetic. He doesn't give a day. What is people care? He just wants the job done. But when I coach him, he says, I actually really care about them. I want them to do well. But I don't know how to communicate that. I don't know how to say, like when they make a mistake, oh man, how can I support you? How can I make sure that you have what you need so that in the future you have success? Instead he comes out and he says, what the did not just explain to you what needs to be done. So that's the thing, placing that interrupt between how we normally react, filtering it and understanding. And then you can get the same message across without being that way with taking the other person's perspective into account. And sometimes that starts with a question. Sometimes as a leader, instead of saying, why the heck did you do this wrong? I gave you everything I need. I thought I told you how exactly how to do it. You can say, okay, let me ask you this, right? Because this isn't what I expected to see. What I would like to see from you is this thing. What can I do to help you get that? Sometimes that's the best thing that you can do. That communication shift says the same exact message, but gets the point across differently and helps that person feel like they're supporting versus feeling like they're a little kid when they're an adult. So you have to be willing to think that way and pause for a minute because a lot of people are not taking that pause to really hit the cognitive mind. They let their emotions get the best of it. And a lot of people say, I'm not emotional. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. I mean, that's what's driving the way you're reacting and responding. And the key to that is, I mentioned react versus respond. A lot of people are reacting. They're just knee jerk. They're just not taking a break. They're not taking that moment. So we have to get to the point where we're responding intelligently to things. And then the other component is reliquishing that control realizing that you are better off as a team than as a solo unit. So a lot of the leaders, they feel like they have to have the right answers. But I always challenge them to create like feedback forms so they can get new ideas, innovation from their people near real time feedback on how they could be a better leader. You know what people need? Those are some of the easiest wins, but they're hard because again, they're not what they're used to doing. They used to come and enter the little siloed environment with their leadership team. They make a decision up here. And then they trickle it out here and then they wonder why fails. We have to get it where it's bottom up. We have an idea, but we want to co-creat it with the people that's actually creating the impact that's really working to get the outcomes that we're getting. So there's a lot there and we can have a whole another conversation. But the real key is showing them the difference between but the not really care and just focusing on the bottom line. sympathy saying, oh, I'm sorry yet you had the goal that get it done anyway. You're looking on the outside end, whereas empathy is putting yourself in that person's perspective and saying, you know what? How can I support them better? Because I understand that it may be something that I can do to help them out. And even if you have someone who's just performing at the level, you also have the opportunity to see if maybe that's not the fit for them first before you get rid of it before you fire. Right. So a lot of times a job rotation could be a part of your solution. So that's a part of empathy. Given people the opportunity to show that showcase their various skills, even though that's not what their resume said. Because I've seen it when I come into an or work for a cultural transformation consultation. And people showcase the skills, but because the leader is not seeing it, they're not looking at it. They just see them as a role, a fit and miss role. They don't understand that they can actually be better over here. So we really have to open our eyes as leaders and slow down a bit to understand what's happening and get the diverse perspectives of our people. And that's how we're going to be firing on our cylinders. You focus a lot on emotions and emotional intelligence. And of course, we're human. We have emotions. But being able to understand them, manage them and work with them. That's what makes someone a better leader, a better teammate, a better person. So he's my question. What are some of the emotional blind spots we need to watch our four? Maybe his fear, maybe ego, maybe something else. I asked this because it's not just about learning what to do. It's about knowing what to look out for. These hidden villains, if you will, can pull us back into all heavens, all reactive behavior. And if we can name them, we can manage them better. So from your work, what are those few things we should all be more mindful of? Whether we are leaders or just trying to grow as human beings? The first step is to master you. So I see a lot of leaders who really don't take time to just be with themselves to get to discover who they are, what are their values, all these types of things. And a lot of people say it's fluff. It's really not because what happens is they're so busy. They have meetings back to back. They're always on. They're always thinking once they're done with that, they have to do things with their family or be social. All these all these things they get to do, but they now feel like they have to do because it's just just a job. So I recommend for everyone to just take some time daily, even if it's 15 minutes to just be. Put some time on your calendar to just focus to disconnect from tech to disconnect from meetings to just recenter yourself. That's the first step to get to know who you are. What are your thoughts even saying? What are you saying to yourself? That's the first thing. That's the self awareness component. The second thing is understanding your behavioral patterns. Because once we get the pattern recognition down, now we can make some changes. So if you understand your behavioral patterns, how do you typically operate in a given situation? What are your triggers? What's frustrating you? If you notice that there's always you can have the best day and then one person comes in and that just throws you all for some reason. What is it about that person? Right? That's really the thing that's triggering you. So we have to get into the perspective of looking at it from that lens by understanding who we are first. And then being able to cause and really filter our emotions before we respond or make a decision. Because if you make it from your emotions, tens of ours not really that rational. We may try to justify it and say it's rational, but it's probably not. So you have to recognize and be able to name the emotion that you feel it. Because the message allows you to say, am I in the space to be making these key decisions right now? Do I need a moment? Do I need some more than information? Whatever the case is, it's really about taking ownership of you being accountability of you. And then identifying who can be your support system to make sure that you're in the best position to be your best self. And then you can move into talking about the social and relationship side of things. So from that perspective, I want leaders to just identify one way that they feel like they can interact a little bit better, communicate a little bit better. Just in general, so for me, I had to focus more on missing to understand and coaching really helped me with that. So I would be the person, I'm going to say, I want to get my point out there because naturally, I'm a very assertive person. I'm a very direct person center. But I realized I could still do that, but understand that I can respect the other person's point. And now I'm very curious about what other people think and why they think that way. So I recommend that leaders look at their behavioral patterns and then see how that kind of shows up when they're interacting with various people. And then seeing if they can identify how they can just communicate with that person just a little bit better. Sometimes you can ask, sometimes you can ask the person, hey, what's the best way to communicate with you? But one thing that gets you to give you feedback, what would be the best way to do that? We can be proactive with our conversation. So when we do getting to that moment, that's a little bit more heated. We've already trained as we fought as the military says. So that's really what's going to make us better. So emotional intelligence starts from within, starts with us. I couldn't agree more. I'm a big believer in self awareness. And honestly, I've seen this so often. People go through life all the way to retirement and realize they never really got to know themselves. They just follow the playbook, check all the boxes, did what was expected. And maybe they did well, made money, built a career, a deep gau, they don't feel fulfilled. They don't feel happy. That's why self awareness matters. When you know who you are, it helps you build empathy and resilience. Loosen a job, for example. It's hard. But that doesn't mean you've lost yourself. You haven't lost your skills. You haven't lost your value. You haven't lost who you are. Resilience is remembering that. Empathy includes self-impathy too, which is self-love. Supporting yourself the way you will support others. That's one of the biggest lessons I've taken away from our conversation today. Absolutely. And when you think about that example of job loss, if you are empathetic and you ask for support from people, they are more inclined to help you find that next role. Because you treated them well, never remember that. Is this anything you like to add? Something you really want to share with the audience? Please go ahead. The mic is yours. Oh no, I really appreciate you. I think you're phenomenal host. You got it down to the science, man. So I appreciate you having been doing it. It was a great conversation. I really appreciate you. That's the end for series on Javond Wooden. Javond shows us that mistake isn't weakness. It is the work. If you are trying to lead to bill or just grow as a person, his experience is proof that change isn't only possible. It's contagious. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews, check out our website and follow me on social media. I'm Vizchen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.
