Broke, Bullied, and Then... Christina Aguilera Called: Hollywood Hair Stylist Chris Appleton’s Story

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I'm Nicole Lapin, the only financial expert. You don't need a dictionary to understand it's time for some Money Rehab. Chris Appleton is the hair wizard in Hollywood. He's worked with Kim Kardashian, Ariana Grande, Jennifer Lopez, Christina Aguilera, Kris Jenner. The list truly goes on and on. He has built such an incredible celebrity client list, but he comes from nothing. Working hard wasn't the only thing to help him reach the top. It was also accepting his identity. In his 20s, Chris came out as gay and at the time he had been in a relationship with a woman for years and they had two kids together. This was a really difficult time in his life. And I should say that this conversation includes discussion of suicidal ideology. So please take care while listening and also you can find resources in the show notes if you or a loved one needs help. But Chris worked through that painful chapter in his life and today he shares the lessons that he took from that time. In this conversation we talk about how identity intersects with success, the stories behind some of his most iconic work, and how he's worked through his own imposter syndrome. Chris Appleton, welcome to Money Rehab.

3:12

Thank you so much for having me.

4:22

Thank you so much for being here. So I'm not a Kardashian person. I've never watched enough. I know I'm the only person on the whole thing planet.

4:23

I only ever watched one, but I.

4:31

Dug into your book.

4:33

Big fan.

4:34

Your roots don't define you and I discovered that you grew up Jehovah's Witness.

4:35

Oh, my God. I did not expect you to ask me that. It's so funny because you don't wrote this book. And then people keep asking me questions. Eventually they did. I say that I wrote it so long ago, like, actually only last year, but honestly, anything I do last week I forgot about.

4:39

I bring it up because actually there's some connection. My father actually invented bloodless surgery that reached out to a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses. And so we had so many Jehovah's Witnesses.

4:52

Fab. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think what you'll find in the book is a lot about me that you didn't know. Who am I to, like, tell anyone anything about my life when people probably only know me as working with celebrities, having, you know, an image on social media which looks quite polished and put together? Hopefully, I don't know. That's what I tried to create, without me just being really raw and saying, okay, you've seen this side of me, which is a very small part of who I am, but this is the real behind the scenes of it all. And I think, you know, I talk about some of the darkest moments in my life. I talk about some of the hardest times, and I talk about my comeback, and I talk about how I redefined, you know, my roots and where I came from. Because I come from very humble beginning. We were very poor growing up in sort of middle England. My parents had a lot of trauma passed on to them. My mom was 10 when her mum and dad got murdered. And she didn't even get told. They read it on the front of a newspaper. My dad got put in a home at the age of five, and they basically went through their traumas. And, you know, some of that is inevitably going to be passed down through generations. One of the big sort of points in my life where a lot changed for me was when I first got my hands on hair, because prior to that, I was told at school I was pretty kind of stupid because I was dyslexic. I'm dyslexic. And now we understand a lot more about that. Back then, if you didn't sort of learn in a very black and white way, you were stupid or lazy. So I think I was fighting a lot of demons around that. And also being labeled as gay because I did hair at a young age. I got a job and I really love doing hair. And I think sort of finding hair was something that was the first time I ever felt good at something. I was like, oh, wow, I. I'm really Good at this. I get to make people look and feel great. And the first person I started with was my mom, and I wanted to make her look glamorous. So I do her hair and try and make a lot like some Hollywood star, you know, it was very far from what we were and what we had. And when she looked in the mirror, I realized she. She changed a little. She didn't recognize that woman that was, you know, mum of five kids. And she saw something different. And I think that was so powerful to me. I was like, oh, wow. You get to meet people, really feel. And I love that. It was like a superpower. So then I just really got focused on trying to be the best at it, because I think for a long time I was trying to prove, I guess, to everyone else that I was enough. I wasn't stupid, I wasn't gay. You know, I didn't want to be these labels. But in doing that, I kind of abandoned myself. And I became very good at making other people look at themselves because I did it for a craft, as a job. Making people look in the mirror, see themselves, be a better version, help bring that out in them. But I didn't realize I wasn't actually looking at myself. I was very avoidant about where I'd come from because I guess I'd been told, like I said, it was wrong, and I was ashamed of that. So for a long time, I managed to get away with that until I was, like, 26, which is when I came out. My whole life changed, and that was even more brutal because, you know, being avoidant for that long is a long time, and you have a lot of catching up to do and a lot of understanding. And if you're the type of person I am, as I like to understand. I like to understand why we do things because do. Why we make the mistakes we make and how we can kind of be a better version from that. And, you know, a lot of that is in the book, because when you have both and when you have alignment is, you know, really when the magic happens, in my experience.

5:04

But for that magic to happen, you do really literally have to go back.

8:26

To your roots, and it's brutal. Sometimes doing that work is hard, you know, I'm sure.

8:29

And a lot of the trauma that you talk about probably extends to financial trauma as well. Can you. Can you pull the thread for me to where money trauma came up for you as a kid? You did. You guys didn't have a lot of money?

8:34

No.

8:47

Were you shielded from that, or was it stressful?

8:47

No, it's kind of what I knew. So, yeah, we were really poor. I mean, I used to share a bedroom with my two brothers. I mean, really have any food in the cupboards? If we did, it was gone within five minutes. And, you know, we're a big family of five and my mom and dad did the best we could. I think maybe not having money as a kid or anything, really, you know, I mean, I. I literally used to work in a salon. At the age of 13, I got paid 10 pound for the day. I think it was a pound an hour. It's like $1 an hour. And I'd be like scrubbing skirting boards. It wasn't like we were blowing out hair and doing glamorous things. We like scrubbing skirting boards, making tea and coffee, cleaning toilets. But I used to save my money and I would, like, make it count, you know, because I. I wanted to get myself to a better place. I wanted to get myself out of what I experienced as a child, which was, you know, really poor. It was very, very brutal. And I think that's always motivated me to be better, you know, to push harder, to work harder. And with age, I've also learned balance because I make such a long time and such a big part of my life. I was so hard on myself and always pushing and like, nothing was good enough. It was always. I was always like that voice inside your head, that hater. Yes. And I speak about this in the book where I say it's weird we put ourselves down. Yeah, yeah. You call it the mean girl, I call it the hater. Where, you know, a lot of the time I see that happen and most people might be able to relate to this when they go into a hair salon and they sit in the chair and, you know, you think, oh, my God, I look tired. Why is this eye like go down like that? Like these wrinkles, they weren't there. But my God, I've got gray. Am I going bald? You know, all this, we start talking to ourselves. Like, if the hater inside that voice can be really loud and really apparent. But I think what I've learned to do is find balance with that voice. And I think I used to use it as motivation, whereas now I think I use it as I'll let it. It's always going to be there. That hater is always there. It's always going to be there. It's not as though it ever disappears. But you learn techniques and like I said, people will find this in the book to basically silence it and if it's usually a level 10, it'll maybe be a level 2, and not for so long, and you can come back to yourself. And you're like, I'm doing that thing, you know, it's not healthy. And one of the biggest realizations I ever had, and it's really powerful, was actually seeing the child in me. Like, as adult Chris, I was doing this therapy session, and my therapist was like, you know, I want you to sort of talk to him. And I was like, oh, you know, like, I didn't really sort of believe. And I was like, here we go. I was like, all right, I'm gonna talk to this kid and close my eyes. And he's like, you know, what do you think he needed there? And I was like, I just remember feeling. And I'm. I think he just wanted to know it's going to be okay. And he's like, why don't you tell him that? And, like, coming back to myself. And I was like, oh, my God, I've been so mean to myself. That voice has been so loud. That inner hater has been so loud my whole life. And it was a real moment where I was sort of understanding. Like, you can be abusive to yourself, you know, and to learn to be kind. Like, I would never speak to another child like that. I wouldn't speak to my children. I won't speak to anyone like that. But you speak to yourself like that. And a lot of people do that. A lot of people, are you fat, you're ugly, or you're not good enough? Like, we constantly do it to ourselves. But I learned a technique to, like, come back to myself and just remember that little kid who is inside, and it's a part of you. Whereas I think for a long time, what I did is I detached myself from that. I detached myself from the past because I didn't want to be it. Whereas now I use it as motivation. It's all me. All those versions were me. And, like, I think that's what makes you whole. And that's where I found alignment. Because, like, alignment externally is one thing, but getting aligned on the. On the inside was the real healing part for me, where everything kind of came together, you know?

8:50

Yeah, you wouldn't be who you are today, definitely. Out those versions, definitely.

12:37

And it doesn't mean you have it all figured out. It just means that you find techniques to be able to come back to yourself. When you do lose it for a minute, you know, you can come back, and it just doesn't last as. As Long.

12:41

What is the hater saying these days? Is their greatest hits?

12:50

Well, every now and again, I'll look in the mirror and I'll be like, oh, God, I got gray coming through. Old. I remember thinking, when you have gray coming through, I remember my brother having it. I was like, oh, he's got really old. And I remember looking in the mirror like, this gray. I'm really old. But now I'm like, oh, yeah, it does mean I'm older, but actually it also means I'm a little wiser. I'm financially in a better position. I'm secure in who I am as a person. And I think it shows, like, I've lived. And I actually think the salt and pepper look can be quite hot on guys. So I just changed the narrative. You know, I changed the narrative for a minute. I'll still be like, oh, you'll. With the great. And then I'm like, well, am I. Actually, I think it's kind of hard, you know, And I'll just change the narrative a little bit. And if you do that often enough, you start to believe it, you know. Whereas the easy thing to do is just to keep talking badly to yourself. You don't even know you're doing it. And that's what I've done for a career, is I've helped people look at those things in the mirror that they see or the limitations they have, and I've helped them redefine them and re. Sort of direct them. I just didn't do it to myself. I found it so much easier to do it to other people than to actually look in the mirror and do myself.

12:53

Has there ever been a financial or money hater?

14:01

Yeah, of course. I think the poor boy inside me is always there. Even now I'll be buying stuff and I'm like, we went shopping the other day and I was with my assistant. I'm buying some Christmas shopping. And, like, I'm going back to the UK to be a really nice Christmas, and I'm buying some stuff. And I'm saying to my assistant, Delaney, I'm like, should I have brought that? Like, I'm being a bit excessive. Like, do you think I really need that? Like, And I'm like, I probably could take. I could take it back and I could get a couple of things. And I'm like, doing this thing I used to always do as a kid, and I'm like, I can't afford it. It's okay, I can get that and it's all right. I don't think it Ever leaves you kind of like that. It doesn't. Because I'm very grateful to be in the position I'm in. I'm very grateful to be able to, you know, support my family. And, you know, I still work really hard for that. I've had a job since I'm 13. I would hope at 42, I can, you know, but I don't think it ever leaves you. There's always. It's always there. I think it's always there. That poor boy inside. Do I even see my parents like, I see them like, you know, they'll never order room service if they went to a hotel, or they'd never touched the mini bar, or they wouldn't even, you know, they'd come to la. They would. I tell you what, they would fly, like, from here to Switzerland, Switzerland to Paris, I probably go back. And then from Paris, they would go all over to get here. It was even days, I'm like, guys, what flight did you bought? Was the cheapest one possible. Because their whole life they've spent scrimping and scraping and making ends meet. And a great joy I have now is they've always brought their kids first and they always will. And I'm trying to educate them. Like, guys, you have to, like, look after yourself. We're good now. We're all adults. We're all grown up. You give us all your years, you know, we. It's time for us to sort of support you. And I want them to have, like, quality in their life and some nice things. And I have to walk to Timbuktu because they don't want to get anybody. Guys, it's all right. But, you know, I. I know I. I see them stopping. They're like, all right, okay, we can do this. But it's always like this guilt because when you've always struggled for money, it's like it never really leaves you.

14:04

This year has forced me to get serious about all parts of my health, mental and physical. I'm trying to heal from the past year and keep myself healthy for all the amazing things I have planned for 2026. A big part of that journey has been learning, but I'm a busy lady. I never have the chance to sit still and do nothing. Which is why my favorite way to learn is to listen to audiobooks on Audible. Currently, I'm listening to the Body Keeps Score, Brain, Mind and Body in the Healing of Trauma. It's been an insightful listen, and I'm amazed at what I am already learning about myself. It sparked more than a few. Oh, duh, mom. Listening to it also made it feel warmer and more accessible. Kickstart your well being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a 30 day trial at audible.com MNN membership is $14.95 a month. After 30 days, cancel anytime. Listening to the top voices in well being sounds like self care to us. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen.

15:56

Are there other money lessons that you had to unlearn? Because to your point, when you're growing up you don't really have the perspective. But now that you do, I've always.

16:57

Been a real saver. I always felt like I wasn't good at saving, but my business manager said that they have never seen anyone save like I save. And I think there's the Brit inside me that's always loves a good deal. I don't know why. It's like, you know, like in England, this is kind of culture where it's like, oh, come on mate, do me a better deal. Like how much for cash? Like, you know, it's going to wheelie dealy, like kind of attitude. Yeah, maybe a little bit, but it's more like cheeky. It's my cheeky banter, you know, because LA is expensive. Like you go to Air1, you can spend a whole month's like wage on a smoothie, you know what I mean? It's not cheap. I mean, imagine doing your weekly shop there. It's insane. You can spend, you know, it's like kind of shocking. You buy like a strawberry at one strawberry. I think it was $20 at one point. You know, it's like, can be a lot.

17:06

You had a smoothie, you remember?

17:51

I had one that was really cute. I was a very. That was one of those moments where I was like, yes, made it. Yeah, one smoothie. I was really fun actually to be recognized in hair and to be recognized in my craft and then put it into a movie. And that was great. It was really, really fun. Just like a nice little kind of, you know those moments where you kind of think, wow. I had a call actually from Madonna's team recently and like, oh, Madonna is really looking forward to working with Chris. And I remember thinking, how does Madonna know who I am? You know, and because as a kid she was such an inspiration to me. Like she was the only one at the time doing like, you know, every album was something different and she had such a vibe, you know, she did music. Cowboy boots were a thing, you know, she. She would just really stick to that era. And at the time I'd say she was the only one that was like reinventing herself so much. She was always such a big inspiration. And I remember being like a 15 year old and I cut out this thing from a newspaper and we went on a bus. I took my mom, we went on the bus to like Paris and we took on the ferry and then we had to like queue up for hours. And I remember watching her show and I remember going back to that like 15 year old kid and I was like, wow, if you'd have known that one day she'd be asking for me to do or even just know who I am in the realms of whatever. And it was like a real moment where you're like, wow, so cool, interesting. And when you like really put something out there and like a goal and you work towards it, Mind you, this is literally what, like 30 years later?

17:53

Yeah, it's like overnight success. 30 years in the making.

19:17

People go, oh, how are you successful? I'm like, guys, not really. I've had a job since I was 13. I've like, yes, I, I recognize that and I'm very grateful to be in the position I am, but it's not been through any ease knowing a certain person. You know, when I first moved to la, it's like, oh, he's doing well because he's British. It's because he's tall. It's because, because he's got a big personality. You know, like, people were quick to just use any old bloody thing of why I was doing well. The why I was doing well is because I'd spent 30 years of my life learning my craft. I used to, I was obsessed with learning. I even had a color degree. I got a degree in color. And, you know, where you wear the hat and stuff and like no one even knows you could get a degree in color.

19:19

No.

20:00

I learned so much about my craft and if there's something I didn't know, I would go down. I remember I was in New York once, I got booked to do a shoot of a magazine cover of a magazine. They wanted braids. I didn't know how to braid hair. I went to Harlem and I, I went into the shops and I was like, guys, can you help me be the braid shops? Can I pay you to teach me how to paid. I practice on my doll. Said I would, I would never like take anything for granted. I just wanted to be good at. I wanted to be good enough. That was what I really wanted. I just wanted to be good enough and really, all along I wish I could have told myself that I was good enough.

20:00

It's work in progress. Yeah, it's progress, not perfection. Yeah. So you started working at 13, you left school at 16. Right. And then you started taking free jobs around London to get more experience.

20:32

Well, I was working in Leicester, so I got qualified. And then I kind of worked my way up in the salon on the price level. I was like, I want to be at the top of the price level. Like, I want to go through all the price levels and be at the top. And then I got my own price level. And then I was kind of like, what else is there? And then I was like, oh, there's London. Because I was like from a small town of Leicester and I was like, london, they do photo shoots. And like I said, oh, maybe I could do editorial stuff, you know, And I remember the editorial world was very like, oh, you're a salon hairstylist. You're not cool. You know, you need to stay in your lane. You're always put into boxes. Every stage from my life, people love to put you in a box. And so I'd go around with my portfolio and I used to remember I couldn't even afford the train. I used to hide from the train conductor because it was like a two hour journey into London. And then I'd take my little portfolio in and they'd like, go, okay, thank you. And then, you know, go to the next one. Okay, thank you. And then once I got a call back and they're like, oh, you know, we want you to assist this hairstylist. Yes. Oh, my God. You think I'd won the lottery? Oh, my God. Great. I can look because that's like a sponge. I was so excited to watch. And if someone was like, good at something, I wanted to know why. I was like, why are they good at this? What? What is it? Why are they a head leader at a fashion show? Is it the way they talk? How do they compose themselves? How are they treating other people? What is their, you know, how does their team work? How do they run their team? I was just like a sponge, absorbing all the information. So I'd be like passing up pins to someone. But I was watching and I was taking everything and I was watching the dynamic. I watched how people interacted with each other. And then I go to the next thing. And then I had some lucky breaks. I won a TV show in the uk. It was like the great British break off, but of hair. So everything was just like a leap board and nothing Was huge. Nothing was like, oh, you've made it. Everything was like, you had to really make the most of each moment and use it as a leap rock. And there were still so many no's and so many times I fell flat on my face and, you know, I'd get an agent. And then I remember saying, you know, I, I really want to do the COVID of Vogue one day. That's my goal. And they laughed at me. And they were like, you remember, dude, for a photo, you're like a salon hairstylist. And they were like, you got to keep it real, Chris. Like, don't let your ego go ahead of you. Oh, okay. And they booked me a job for like a flip flop campaign. I was doing a ponytail. I remember thinking, no, I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna keep going. Now I've done the COVID of like, you know, American Vogue, British Vogue with some of the most famous women in the world. Like, I've done international vogues. And like, if I'd have listened to what other people had told me, I wouldn't have done any of this. I wouldn't have even come to America. And I think my journey was just. It just kept going. I just kept pushing. I get a no. I'd fall back down, pick myself back up and got out there, Fall back down, pick myself up, get back out there. I've always sort of tried to be motivated by it.

20:44

Well, I imagine it to be very hard to hide from a conductor at 6:3. But you did it. And London.

23:20

Sorry. So I, I. That like you, you were saying. I thought, oh, no, I've been doing some accent. It's like, you're here. You. I saw you and I'm like, oh, I don't, Sorry, I don't know. I put like glasses on, be like, I don't know, I'm going. He's like, no, you need to pay. And I'd be like, I don't talk English, I don't know. But I was like, literally, you probably think it's an insane person. And I'd be like, trying to run down the train, avoid this bloody train manager. And then they get me on the platform. I've got no money and I can't afford it. But I just had a passion. I just loved it. And where there was. I used to get the bus. The bus was three hours, the bus was even longer. And that was painful.

23:27

Well, I was going to ask you what's the most unhinged thing you. You did during that time to save money in an expensive city, but maybe that's it.

24:03

And, you know, it was interesting because fast forward, there's a lot that happened in between. But eventually I started to work with celebrities. So I did some fashion show stuff, started working with different makeup artists, then sort of started to do, like, a few magazines, not great magazines, just like weekend newspaper magazines. And I worked with a makeup artist that worked with a celebrity, Rita Ora. And she's like, oh, she's looking for a new hairstylist and she recommended me. I ended up working with Rita for two years and that was my first kind of celebrity. That was the beginning of social media. Social media. I started to post my work on Instagram and just. I was very naive to see it, knowing that people looked at it, you know, the people that followed you. Like my mom and dad, and my mom always wrote a nice comment. But then I remember one day I got a call from JLo's team. It was an email, and I ignored it because I was like, well, what else are you going to do? This is bullshit. Who think it was spam? Of course it did. Well, if you got an email from JLo, wouldn't you think it's a spam? Do you know what I mean? It's like, hey, you've won a million dollars. I'm like, oh, you know, I remember being at the phone box, ringing back for the million dollars. I think it cost me 500,000 in coins. Trying to call through, you know, it was like there was fraud, all these fraudulent things. So I think, you know, that's stupid. And then I got another one. And again, it was that moment. I was like, how does JLO know who I am? I'm just Chris, you know, I'm just Chris from Leicester. It was just doing my thing. And so I respond, I was like, I actually couldn't do it because I wasn't available. And I remember thinking, you know, what.

24:12

Do you mean you weren't available for JLo?

25:34

Because I was with Rita at the time and we were doing the X Factor and I think they wanted it, like that weekend or something. I wasn't even in la. They weren't going to fly me there. I had to get myself. I had to. I think they thought I was a local or whatever, you know, they weren't, you know, So I was like, it just was impossible. So I was like, maybe I need to make the move. Like, maybe that could be the next thing. Like, because Hollywood was always the thing I used to do in my mum's hair. It was like, what Inspired me, and I was like, maybe I could go to Hollywood. Maybe I could do this. So I moved to Hollywood, and for the first three months, I didn't do anything, didn't work, and I ran out of money. I'm a father of two by that point. And I remember I got a call to do Christina Aguilera's hair on the Voice, and I was really excited about it, but then paralyzed with fear. And I was on the way to do a hair for the Voice, and I remember saying to the mother of my kids, Kate, who are still best friends, and I was just like, I'm so scared. Like, I. I can't. She's. I just am terrified. Like, I can't do this. Who the did they think I am? I completely had imposter syndrome. I was like, who do I think I am? What am I playing at? Like, this is crazy. This is the big stuff. This is Hollywood. This is what I used to look at when I was a kid, and I'm not worthy of this. And I remember her saying, look, if you don't make this work, Chris, you're gonna have to come home. Like, I'd spent my money. LA was so expensive. I had two kids support. And so I went to the Voice, and I thought, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna be great. So those three hours for glam and the hairstylist, the makeup artist went in and left me waiting outside. And an hour went by, and I still wasn't invited in. So I was thinking, oh, well, maybe she's got someone else to do her hair. Like, she just wants some finishing touches, you know? Another hour went by, and I'm like, well, it's really not a lot of time, so maybe this is just all a mistake. It's probably a mistake. That's probably mistake. I think it was a mistake. I think. I think I should go home. I think. I think you should be here. And then I remember the last 20 minutes before the live show. They were like, oh, you can go in now. And so I went in, and she's like, what you want to do? And I was like, I want to have three hours of glamour, you know? But in my head, I'm like, oh, well. And hair was ready to be done, and I was like, had all these wigs prepped, had all these pieces, and I thought that would be a really quick way to sort of like, change the look up, do something fun. And the blonde would. The wig was, like, a bit cooler in color, Wasn't as warm as what she was using, and so she's like, oh, I don't like wigs. Oh, yeah? Why would you like wigs? I thought, why would you do. Why would you like anything I've got to do, really? Like. And I was like, she can see me. And I felt like. Like little Chris. I felt like the little boy standing at the window, and I felt like I was him standing in front of her, and she's just looking at me like I'm a loser. You know, Like, I'm like. Not that she was, but I felt that.

25:36

That my painter was.

28:11

And fear was coming through my body. You know, when it, like, paralyzes you and you're like, oh, my God. I'm just. I felt like my arms couldn't move, and my. I just felt like I froze. And then I had this very distinct moment, and it was a really big moment in my career where it felt like the crowd. The clouds kind of parted. And it was this moment where I remember Kate's voice, and she was like, if. If you don't make this work, you're gonna have to go home. And I remember thinking to myself, you know, I didn't come this far to come this far. Like, I know what I'm doing. Like, if she doesn't like what I'm gonna do, that's okay. Like, if she doesn't like what I've got to do, that's okay. It's just not a match. But if I don't do me and do what I'm good at, I will always kick myself. I'll. You know, if I don't show what I can do, like, I'll always kick myself. I miss that opportunity. So I got one of the wigs out of the bag, and I sort of put it on ahead. I said, let's just try it, because, like, you've never seen one of mine. Let's just see what it looks like. And she was like, oh. You know, And I. I was good at wigs because I'd worked with cancer patients in the salon. I got really good at, like, tailoring them, doing a little route. I. Weeks have come on so far, but back then, it was. There was still one, like, all up to date with the rooting and the plucking of the hairline. Anyway, I did all that because of these cancer patients that I work with. And she was like, oh, wow. And the stylist was like, oh, I like it. And so I put it on her head, and off she went. And she went on live on the show and everything's myself like, oh, my God, I hope it looks good. And I was watching the screen. I wasn't taking little sneaky pictures. I'd send it to Kate. I'd be like, she's like, it looks good. I'm like, I think it looks good. I think it was good. And then I remember she came off set and she was talking to, like, the other judges, and she looked over and she went, everyone likes your wig. And then, like, carried on talking. And in that moment, I knew I'd done it. I was like, oh, I did it. And I worked with for a few years after, and that was kind of the beginning of, like, everyone then recognized her hair, and we did these hoops in her hair, and it became a thing. And then I started working with Ariana and the lavender hair, and it just snowballed. But in that defining moment, it could have been very different, because if I'd have gave into that fear that literally was consuming my whole body, I wouldn't be here now when I wrote the book, and I wouldn't be in LA.

28:14

As that professional career was exploding. Your personal life, two kids at 26, you came out during a difficult transition period in your life. Yeah, but he's going through something like that. What would you say to them?

30:15

The best thing you can do is start. Just start by recognizing that there's something that you want to change, something that maybe doesn't make you happy. You keep getting yourself into the same patterns of relationships. You get the same outcome that you don't like. Even if you look in the mirror and think, is this it? Is this? Is this enough? Is this what I want? The lowest moments of my life where I have made that comeback. I didn't know what the next day, I didn't know what the next minute was going to be like, but I surrendered in that moment and just knew that I wanted to change something. And so I think to anyone listening, that is in a situation that they feel lost in or unsure of or wouldn't change, it's just about, first of all, looking and acknowledging that. And like this, I want to change. I want to. I want to create something different. I want to change this pattern. And. And just starting there is. Is the first place, because so many people say I want to change, but I don't even know how to start. And just start at start, you know, don't have to get to end. You don't have to get to the middle. And there's no rushing through it because doing the work is hard. You have to really face some stuff if it really look at yourself, if you really look at the mirror, all the bits that you don't like. Yeah, you really do. It's a real magnifying glass. And that's why a lot of people, I think, struggle in relationships because it's such an expo. It's basically a mirror. It's a. That other person tends to be a mirror to you. And I think that's why, you know, a lot of people can struggle in relationships because it makes them look at themselves, you know, and if you're not comfortable doing that, it's never going to work. You've got to be comfortable with yourself before you can get involved in support something else, you know, you've got to be aligned with who you are, you know, know who you are, what's important to you, and, you know, grow with someone. But you shouldn't be fully unaware of those things because I think that's a dangerous thing to get into.

30:31

Do you think that once you aligned with who you really are, your true identity, that unlocked even greater success?

32:13

Oh, God, yeah. Like, I just wouldn't. I wouldn't. Well, I don't even think I'll be alive if I hadn't found alignment, if I hadn't found myself and come back to myself, I don't think I'd even be here. It wouldn't be a be about like having money or having a career or having success. It would be like not be alive. That's how far I went with trying to not be authentic, not be who I was, be defined by my past, be the things people told me I should be. But I started one day at the age of 26, after I did try and take my life and I didn't die. And the next option was to surrender and stop fighting. I didn't even know I was fighting so hard until I stopped. Until I just let go. And I felt physically. I remember feeling it in my body. I felt like my shoulders went down and I let go. And it wasn't a big moment. It wasn't loud, it was very quiet. But I just thought, I can't hate myself anymore. I couldn't try and be something else anymore. So what about if I just stop? What about if I just start here and in surrendering and just start in there? A lot changed. And I didn't know what was going to happen next. I didn't know what's gonna happen the next day. But I had that moment right then. I had that. And that was enough. It was enough to say this is who I am. Acknowledging my past, where I'd come from, seeing that, sitting with it, but deciding I wanted to make a change for the rest, you know, the rest of the years ahead. I wanted to make a difference.

32:20

Who helped you during that time?

33:58

I mean, my family's always been great, but I think there's so much you want to protect people from, you know, like with family, I think, like, you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings and it's not anyone's fault that circumstances, like everyone does the best they can. Even as I'm a dad now, so even as a dad now, I know I've done things that my kids. It will affect me, them and they will need to do work on. It's not as though anything was bad intention, it's just that. It's just like we all got. We all kind of grow through life learning the lessons we learn and we. We do our best to, you know, pass them on to our kids and sometimes we don't pass on the right information. So I think I felt like it was a personal journey also. I didn't really have anyone to look up to in terms of like, that. My brothers did very much boys stuff. Like they were mechanics and footballers and firefighters. The girls did kind of girls things. And I didn't really feel like I fit in either. I felt like in a creative space. I was dyslexic. No one else was dyslexic. So I was very verbal. I wasn't very kind of literal. And I think a lot of the journey was my own. I think it really started just looking at myself and I. I didn't. For the first time, it wasn't about someone else looking at me. I had to look at myself. I had to come back to myself and go back to that little kid and be like, oh, wow. I think he just needs to know it's okay. And it doesn't happen overnight. It doesn't just fix. You know, I still get. I get triggered. Today I got triggered about something on the way over here. And I remember I went back and I was like, oh, that's really annoying. That happened. And then I can come back to myself. I can, like. Well, it's kind of like an old version of myself, like, really trigger me. Like it used to, you know, like, it's just life. I don't like it when people are like, I wrote this book and I know everything because it's all like, you know, we all, we. We know what we know from experience. And I think there's some amazing information and amazing books out there, but we are all human, and we all still make mistakes, and we all still get triggered no matter how much information you know. And I think it's really good to humanize that and know that it's okay to not have it all figured out. Even if you. If you've done the work, you still get triggered and trip up sometimes. Yeah, but you'll get yourself up a bit quicker.

34:00

And if it's. I like to say if it's hysterical, it's historical.

36:04

Absolutely.

36:08

If you're reacting in an inordinate way compared to the circumstances, there's something more. There's some scar tissue.

36:08

Totally there. Totally.

36:16

And I really like in your book that you talk about the idea that you shouldn't tell people you're fine if you're not, because it's always a throwaway question.

36:17

I hate the word fine.

36:25

Right. Like, it's like, how are you?

36:26

I said today, how do I look on you so far, But I'm gonna go and change.

36:27

You look stunning.

36:30

Oh, thanks. But imagine if I said what, you know, if I said to you. Are you triggered by the word fine? If you said, chris, what do you think? To my own, I was like, I think it's fine.

36:32

I'm triggered by general small talk.

36:38

Oh, really?

36:40

I don't like it, but I like that you give some lines that people can use instead.

36:41

Totally.

36:47

A fine or good. Like, my favorite is just preparing for my comeback.

36:48

Totally fine. He's just such a middle of the ground. And I've been a fine in my life, especially in relationships. I'm like, that's fine. Fine. How are things? It's fine. It's fine. Like, it's not fine at all. But, you know, like, you tell yourself it's fine. It's kind of like it's really bad, but I'm just gonna like it. I'm good. How are you? You know what I mean? It's just like, how are you doing? I'm fine. It's just such a facade. It's not really a real thing. It's just the middle of the ground. And I'd like to go, if you're not fine, I'd like to know about it. Actually, I'm having a really bad day. Had some news this morning that my cat died, and I'm devastating. I just like ro. I think it's more real. I just like to know more real stuff.

36:52

Well, not drowning is not the same as swimming.

37:31

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

37:34

Exist because you're fine. And you're not dying.

37:35

Have you ever been in the salon? Do you know when it comes to best is when you're in the salon? Has anyone ever cut your hair really bad?

37:38

Of course.

37:42

Huge hair, depression.

37:44

Oh, my God. You sat there and what do you think? It's fine. It's not the truth. It's because it really. It's not fun. You go home, what the. That crazy. Cut my hair off. Like, I hate this. Like, oh, my God. Like, what? You know, you go crazy. I bring everyone. All right. Every day, you wake up, this hair, it's not fine. Far from fine. Thank you so much. Sit in the chair. It's fine. Thank you so much. You know, and it's not fine. It's just like, I feel like sometimes fine, it can be a little bit dishonest. You know, it's not really a true feeling of. Of being honest and being aligned with who you are and how you actually feel. And sometimes we can just use that word as an excuse, you know, not, don't see me. It's okay. Don't bother about me. So I think that's why fine for me is a big ick.

37:45

But at the same time, you don't want to be so tmi. So I like that you say better than some, not better than others.

38:25

Yeah. Yeah.

38:32

So how are you?

38:33

I am today. Great. I feel really excited about talking about my book. I'm really excited that people get to know a little bit more about my world. The people I've worked with, some of their stories, and hopefully I can make people laugh, maybe make people cry. And I'm grateful to be in a position in my life where I, at 42, can share some of my journey. And I hope that brings someone out there some peace and some joy. That means a lot to me. I'm very grateful for that. So, yeah, I feel great.

38:35

Well. And you talk. You've done so much therapy, it sounds like. But you talk about this idea, too, that sitting in a hair stylist chair is like therapy. Why do you think that experience is so vulnerable? And do people talk to you like a therapist?

39:04

Oh, my God, yeah. The stuff that happens in that chat. I've had some. I remember when it's back in the salon of women, like, crazy stuff happen. Anyway, I won't get into that. But, like, yeah, I. I think how many times, you know, how many times you look in the mirror a day? How many times do you think you check yourself out?

39:19

Very interesting. When I'm not in the best mental health space, I Don't look in the mirror.

39:34

Okay. How many times do you think you glance in the mirror a day? You know, you brush your teeth, you do brushing your hair, you know, you put some deodorant on. Yeah. Like 10 to 15 times a day. So you look in the mirror, and what do you see? You don't necessarily register, do you? Just, like. It's just you.

39:39

I see myself.

39:52

Yeah, it's you. Like, you know what you look like we're. Hair in a bun or down. You know what you look like when you're brushing your teeth?

39:53

Yeah.

39:59

You know what you look like in bad lighting? You know, you're looking good lighting. No, it's just like a glance. Right. But I think what people will find in this book and what it will give them the ability to do is to actually stop and look and see themselves. And that's a bit like what happens when you come and sit in my chair in a salon. You sit in the chair. And again, most people go to the negative route. Like, everyone's sat in that salon chair, and they're like this. Is this lighting bad, or am I looking old today? You know, like, most people tend to go down that negative route. I don't very often hear people sit in their chair and be like, I look fabulous. Wow. My boobs are perky today. And these gray roots really suit me. You know, most people go to the negative side. So I think what people will find in the book is like, it's gonna be like sitting in my chair in terms of you actually stop and look at yourself, and you look at the things you don't like, and you look at the things you do like, and you look at where you want to get to and maybe let go of some of those beliefs you were told that you weren't, you know, weren't possible. Like, in my chair, for example. I'll give you an example. Ms. Jones comes in and, you know, she talks about she's a brunette. She's always wanted to be blind. She knows she can't be blonde, you know, and I'd stop them in it. So tell me, like, why. Why do you feel like you can't be blonde? And, like, well, I just know I can't do that. So who told you that? Well, like, my mom told me when I was a kid that I have to be on brunette, and that's what suits me. And I'm like, it's so interesting that we let our roots define us, because that's just someone that had this idea that you should be One thing and in actual fact, like, I see so much possibility for you and there's endless things. And once you start saying, well, you know, what about if we found a version of one that suited you and your skin tone and your eye color and even your personality type and like, what, I could do that. I could do that. Yeah. And it might not even happen then, but once you've planted the seed, you know, the next time I've been thinking about what you said and, you know, I think I would like to go, like, I'd like to try it, you know, I'd like to see something different and like, you can bring something out in people that, like, it's like an. It's like a superpower. It makes them see themselves differently. It makes them realize they're not defined by the roots they were given and their past and they can retell their story. And that kind of became, like, I say, like a bit of a suit. It felt like a superpower being able to do that.

39:59

And the idea that you, along the way have created an amazing professional reputation for yourself, what advice would you give to other business owners, entrepreneurs, you know, create that reputation?

42:07

I think success is really interesting. Like, people say you're successful and I can, I can. For a long time I'd be like, oh, whatever, I'm just a hair stylist. And I have that self deprecating kind of feeling about it.

42:20

It's also a British thing.

42:28

I think it is a British thing. But I can also now be mature enough to be like, thank you. Like, that I've done well. Like, I've worked hard and I've had some successes. I've also had plenty of failures. And I think anyone that is wanting to start out, it's. It's about using the tools that can enable you to showcase who you truly are. Like, if you want to make your stamp in the world, like with hair, like, I wanted to showcase what I was good at. I think what I'm good at is I'm not a beachy wave kind of guy. I'm good at, like changing things up. I like to kind of bring out the best in people. Like to move things on, tell a story with her. So people would go from long to short and they'd have bangs and then they wouldn't. And I kind of like to storytell. And I think that's the. That was like my superpower. I was like, I want to sort of show that in my social media that, you know, I do these transformations and that people can, you know, Create different versions of themselves. So that was like, my staple. Now, if you're a really good colorist and you're great at blondes, like, that would be your staple. You got to think of what. What your defining thing is that makes you different in the world of, you know, hundreds of thousands of millions of people that, you know, also do hair or also are in business or also work a bank or also want to start off their own business, like, sell the sizzle, not the sausage. It's about kind of what is your selling point. I had a friend the other day. I won't say it was, but she sent me this video, and she's like, hey, I'm launching this brand. What do you think? Can I send you the video? She knew it wasn't good because she's like, I filmed it three times, and there's something off about it. Could you look at it and tell me what you think? Said, yeah, send it over. I'm like, babe, what are you selling the chair? And she's like, well, no, I'm actually selling this. And I'm like, but all I'm looking at is this chair. Why are you sitting in front of a. You know, you're in a. They sell in, like, an old person's home, like, some cozy. Like, what the hell are you. Get the product. I want to see the product. I want to know in the first three seconds why you are the best at what you do. You've. You've earned this expertise. She's phenomenal at what she does tell people. She said, I don't want people to think I'm a big head. Or, like, I don't want to, like, I'm like, use the celebrity. You, you know, work with the celebrity. Show the celebrities you've worked with. Like, show. Show that. Showcase your work. Showcase. There's some of these amazing, talented women, some of the most famous women in the world choose you. And she's like, well, do you think that I'm like, well, you post pictures of them. Why? But when it's about you, sometimes you're like, oh, I don't want to be too much. I don't want to. And it's like, if you're going to be a brand and you're going to be a business, you have to make some noise and you have to let people know because we have a very short attention span. And when you're flicking through Instagram, you've got a couple of seconds of, like, attention. You're like, oh, you know, if it's not Capturing your attention. And it's not clear to you what the message is. You tend to flip away. So I was like, you need to refilm this. And I want, you know, you need to tell me in the first few seconds, I want to see the people you work with. I want to know why you're the best at what you do. And also, what is this product you're selling? And she's like, well, it's. This isn't this. And I'm like, I don't get that. I get that you're into like this animal or I. And it was like this animal was set. I don't want to tell you whatever, but, like, you might tell me off it. She was hysterical because we've been friends for a long time and she's laughing. She knew. She's like, you're so right. And I was like, babe, believe in yourself. Like, because she's the most talented at what she does, but she just wasn't showcasing it because she didn't want to be too much. And instead she was just showcasing, like, everything but, like, the actual product and the beauty of it and why it's the best. And, like, you got to make that stand out. So what you're good at, tell people. And sell the sizzle, not the sausage.

42:30

Who's your favorite client?

45:54

I. I love everyone I've worked with. I think I've learned something different from everyone. And I very much think I've always been like a sponge. Like, you know, Kim, for example, what she's done has always been such a big inspiration to me in her career in terms of, like, she was in reality star, then she did the law and got into law and, you know, the law degree and then became an actress and meanwhile was doing skims, which is this billion dollar company, a multi billion dollar company. And, you know, see her build it from the bottom to the top, you know, and then be a great mom. And I've always been a sponge working with amazing people. I've always like, how do they do that? How do they manage that? How. What's the balance here?

45:55

Do you have a favorite look?

46:31

Like a hairstyle known for? Yes. Not really. I think, like, that's up to other people to decide. There's things that snap that people always say, oh, JLo, Super bowl or Kip, one of Kim's Met Ball looks, or Ariana Grande's ponytail when we did, like the hoops and stuff in it. Or there's lots of things that people like. I think the one thing that I'd like to be remembered for is maybe seeing people and help them see the best version of themselves and bring that out. Whether it is JLo or whether it's Mrs. Jones that comes in a salon, or if it's someone on the Today show, or if it's a cancer patient that lost their hair. I just want people to know that looking good and feeling good is more than, like, a superficial thing. It really is something that can change your whole life when you get it aligned and it's really simple. And that's what I mean about finding yourself and finding alignment. Because when you really know who you are, like, there's three different types of client. You've got the whisper client. The whisper client would be someone that doesn't like to make too much noise in both the literal sense and also the physical sense. So maybe trim the hair every six weeks, keep it healthy, maybe cover the roots like the gray, or keep it very natural. And then you've got the other type of client, which is a talk client. So that will be someone that gets highlights, keeps up with their trends. Oh, balayage is in. Now we'll do balayage. Someone that, like, likes to keep up with trends and evolves, but it's not, like, insane. They'll just keep up with the latest trends. And then you've got, like, the screen client. The screen client is someone that is not really about following trends. They like to set the trends so they will go against what suits them, against their skin tone, against their eye color, because they want to be bold and dramatic in their movement. So also finding out what type of person they are, even if, like, blonde isn't necessarily right for their skin tone and their eye color, they may want to do something dramatic where they will change their makeup and they're like, you know, they will change something to make them suit them. So I think there's so much play around with hair and your identity and your visual that you can do. You just need to know how. And you can break the rules. Once you know them, you can break the rules.

46:32

I agree. Once you start questioning them, that's where the breakthroughs happen. So I can go blonde, potentially.

48:33

Let's talk about it. You kind of. What are you? What are we?

48:39

I'm so nervous to even ask.

48:43

You're blonde at the moment. Like brunette and blonde. This is really pretty golden. It's really pretty.

48:44

It sounds like you're bringing in how people feel and how you want others to feel, which is what you talk about in the book, around relationships. It's important to notice how others make you feel.

48:50

Absolutely.

49:02

But also how they make you feel about yourself, which you've outlined in the book. Are you seeing anybody?

49:03

I am. What am I? At the minute, I think I'm in a place of self, love. I don't know. I think I give a lot of love out throughout my life and I think I'm in a place where I really enjoy my own company. And the thing is, you know, when you've done the work, when you really truly know what's good for you, what attracts you, not attracted through old beliefs and traumas. Actually attracted is like the person you are now that someone has done the work, you realize the pool of people is so much smaller. So whereas before I would be like, oh, cute, let's go with it, you know, now I'm like, I think I go into sort of a new relationship, almost like a job interview. I kind of look at some of the things and don't get me wrong, I'm such a lover, like, but I led too much with that, you know, I'm too. I used to think love was enough and love will fix everything. Whereas now I'm a little bit more realistic about, you know, having a life. I want to protect the things that are important to me, the things that I'm aligned with. So then, you know, it's like if you think about viewing a house when you were younger, you know, the first house you go into, you know, oh my God, I love this place. I want to be in forever. It's got like doors and windows and then with time you live in it and you're like, ah, you know, I don't really love. There's not a lot of light that makes me feel quite down or, you know, I really would love like bigger door spaces because I'm always banging my head on that door. So the next time you look for a house, you might see a house with like small windows and small door frames. Oh, that's just not. I don't. That. The reality of that, like, the idea is cute. The reality doesn't work. So I think the older and wiser you get and the more work you've done, it's a bit like house shopping. You're kind of like, you know, I know I can be attracted to that, but also know that's not good for me. So I think it just. I'm. I'm a little bit older, a little bit wiser, so I'm more selective.

49:11

So is that a no?

51:04

My answer is I'm more selective But I'm young and thriving. I'm having great time.

51:05

You talk about how you would get married again.

51:11

Do I?

51:14

You said that you could get married again.

51:15

Yeah, of course. I'm such a lover. Are you kidding me? I love love. Love is. Love is like. I think in a. To an extent, it was a big weakness of mine. I think I was way too open and way too vulnerable with, like, my life. And I think love is a beautiful thing, and I. I absolutely believe in it. I definitely would get married again for sure.

51:17

Would you let Kim officiate your wedding?

51:39

I think I've been there and done that.

51:42

I would get ordained for you.

51:45

Are you a lover?

51:47

I love love.

51:48

Exactly. Who doesn't?

51:49

I love love.

51:51

Do you know. Do you know where. What I really love right now I love, like, being a dad. And my kids are old. My. My daughter just turned 21. My son just turned 23. I'm so incredibly proud of them and the journey they've been on and watching them come to America at a young age and change their whole lives and have new possibilities. And I'm so grateful to be able to share that with them, share my life, create memories with them. I'm so grateful my parents are still alive. Both my parents have had really tough upbringings, and, you know, they both had cancer in the last few years and survived it. That almost made me feel. Made me feel really grateful, too. I remember when they first got diagnosed, I was like, wow, that. That. This is that moment you dread as a kid because, you know, one day you might lose your parents, but you don't really think about it until one day. And I was like, well, I guess I am older now, and they're also older, you know, and so it made me feel so much more appreciative of having those memories with my family and the people around me that I love. So I think love is in many forms and. And that's something that's like, I really value and hold close to me. I'm very protective of as well.

51:52

Well, we've loved having you. Yeah. We end all of our episodes by asking our guests for a final tip that listeners can take the straight to the bank. It can be anything. A tip on investing, saving, knowing your value.

52:51

The best thing I ever did was save more than I spent, put more away than I spent. Save, save, save. And then invest. Because investing to me was like some mathematical crazy equation. I was like, where does the money go? And where is. It's not real. I can't say, you know, but investment because what I realized is money doesn't earn money. Money loses value over years, you know, so you could have $200 five years later. It's not worth $200. It's worth 150 or one. You know, it loses value. It's so funny. I went. And it's funny because, like, I went back to the UK last week and I went to my mom. I was like, I just brought a bar of chocolate, Mom. She's like, yeah. And I was like, I've not brought that since I was a kid in the UK. And I was like, mom, it used to be 50p. And she's like, right. And I was like, it was $6 or 6 pounds. And she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gone up. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm that person now, you know, because it's that much time has gone on. And I really see in the small things how money devalues, you know, and, like, inflation goes up. And so investing your money is very wise.

53:03

How often do you check your accounts?

54:05

Every day. I probably check it when I leave here.

54:07

Really?

54:09

Yeah. I have a little app. I love it. I'm like, let's have a little look, see what's going on.

54:10

Does it give you anxiety or.

54:13

Yeah. Constantly convinced that I've got fraud on my account. And then I go with my business managers, like, oh, no. Oh, that was. Yeah, that. Yeah, that was me. Yeah. Yeah. Drinking coffees that are way too expensive and buying outfits that I wear once and.

54:15

But they're delicious and you look stunning.

54:30

So.

54:32

Yeah, But I'm always, like, I say, I think I'm just. I'm very grateful for having just the luxury of being able to, you know, afford lunch or for a long time, I couldn't dread the bill. And I dread, you know, how if I did spend that kind of money on something, that it would affect me and I wouldn't have enough money to pay for something else. And being a dad at a young age, that's responsibilities. I had to be very savage and make sure they had something, you know, and that I could supply for them. Because like I said when I kid. When I was a kid, my mom and dad, they did the best they could, but we didn't have anything. There wasn't food in the cupboards, you know, and I didn't. I didn't want that for my. Like, I didn't want them to feel. To be hungry. I remember. I remember the feeling as a kid, I was hungry. I remember feeling hungry. I didn't want that. I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to change the generational pattern that would have been inherited. And I hope I've done that.

54:33

I think you have.

55:27