Stop Wasting Candidates’ Time: Shaun Hervey’s No-BS Fix for Hiring EP 7

This is Stare Down the Bull. I'm your host, Susan Hunt. Around here, we tackle the hard stuff, how to lead with clarity, leveraging AI, and turn strategy into real results. My guest today brings a powerful perspective on how to do exactly that. Let's dive in. Today on Stare Down the Bull, we're joined by Sean Hervey, founder of Arkham Talent, and one of the funniest, most brutally honest voices in recruiting. Sean's been in the New York recruiting game for over 15 years, and he's built a massive following by calling out the painful truths about hiring, the awkward interviews, and the bad manager habits, and all the things we secretly know but never say. Through his smart, hysterical, and in-your-face videos on LinkedIn, Sean's forced the industry to take a long, hard look in the mirror and laugh while doing it. Sean, welcome to the show. Thank you. Quite the introduction, Susan. Thank you for having me. Well, it is what it is. I tell the truth. I know you do. I mean, you're well aware that I'm a big fan of yours, so let's dig in because I have a lot of questions for you. Oh, I'm sure you do. Let's rock and roll. So what pulled you into headhunting? And when did you start calling out the insanity of hiring on your videos? What pulled me into headhunting was I actually started in sales at ADECO, which is one of the big four recruiting companies out of college, essentially. I was in the sales department, then I moved over into the recruiting arm of it and been in recruiting ever since. so probably about 12 to 13 years now at this point jesus christ and yeah with the videos i've been creating content on linkedin since 2017 2018 something like that before like a lot of people were kind of doing it especially doing it in the way that was just sort of like the style that i've kind of been doing it which is just uh calling out like just dumb things but never really trying to never trying to call people out specifically but just like the generalistics of hiring and trying to tap into things that people feel that not a lot of people were actually coming out and saying and yeah it's been probably yeah probably good nine or ten years now just been putzing around with it doing your thing did you expect those videos to blow up the way that they did or was it just originally like a vent that you thought you would have? Interestingly enough, the very first time that I posted a video, it was in 2017 when LinkedIn first like opened it. Right. And I think I was the very first person to ever do like something that was more based in comedy. And at that point I had the most, you know, the first quote unquote, like viral video on the platform and it was pretty cool i didn't know that yeah i didn't know that like they asked me to come into the city like work with their product team and just kind of like yeah it was really cool like for yeah like 2017 2018 wherever they they ramped that out but yeah like it's at a certain point after that video kind of like did what it did yeah i mean i kept going with it and kept going with it and kept going with it but did I ever expect that? Probably not. No. I mean, it's just me being a creative. That's what I really, I am. I'm much more of a creative person than I am a business mind by a far stretch. But no, I never really expected a lot of people to kind of jive with it the way that they do. What do your customers say about you? Do you have any customers because you're insulting them all the time and what do they say about your videos this is like the most curious question i have about all of it so oddly enough 95 of the business that we do have is through content and it's through just like the things that i say online is through some of the videos i mean it's one of the things where i don't even want to say it's like a double-edged sword because it's really not like you have to be able to put stuff out there that's authentically and genuinely you because if you don't you're just bullshitting people into thinking that you're something that you're not and the second that like that happens or that you get somebody on the phone can you imagine talking to me if i was all buttoned up and had a suit and tie you'd be like who is this joker you know what i mean like it's a complete opposite effect but i guess to answer the question it's definitely you get people that gravitate towards you those are the ones that you want to work with and the ones that you don't know you don't know if they're what they think about you and you don't really care because right never jive with them anyway i would think you have a huge sales sales following though like sales people probably absolutely love you yeah i mean that's where that's why we do sales recruiting for the most part right it's like it's always geared towards the just like the sales a go-to-market aspect of things and over the years like we just are just try to do different things right late lately it's been the ai videos i don't know if you've seen any of those yet yeah have i watched them yeah with the puppets and some of those ones those ones are interesting those get some definitely mixed reactions but i mean for me it's nothing new it's what i've been doing forever. So used to it. I've done a lot of hiring over the years. As you know, a lot of I've hired probably well over a thousand salespeople in my career. And I have to admit, I've been guilty of some of these hiring practices that you make fun of. And when I watch the no BS videos, I find them very cringy, not because you're doing it, but because I've done what you're talking about. And some of those things are just so obnoxious that it makes people think, it makes people reevaluate the way that they think about hiring. So I give you a lot of credit. Why do you think so many leaders who are arguably really smart people fall into these kind of dumb decision-making practices that aren't based in data ever? Most of them, that's just the way that they've always done it before. yeah that's the way that they've done it they've had you know sales managers back in the day that taught them that this is the way that we have to do it this is what we look for and then we take them out for a steak dinner and if they order the shrimp tacos or something like that then that means that they're not going to be hired by us you know just like these old outdated dumb practices I think when it comes to utilizing data, I think a lot of it is important, but I also don't think that you should be completely held hostage to numbers and data because people are not data. They're not numbers, right? Like you could do everything possible in vetting somebody. You could back channel them. You could do whatever it is. But at the end of the day, your product is different. That person is different. It's like environments different. Every sort of environment is different. Look at these pro football teams right now, right? Like you have some of the like some quarterbacks that were horrible on one team, right? And then they go to another team and now they're playing like MVPs because they've got a different, you know, they shake up the environment, they shake up the coaching. But to kind of bring it all back, I just think the biggest thing is that that's the way that a lot of people have just done it. They've done it their way. And they think that their way is the best way. and they don't want to have the open dialogues about it because a lot of the time they feel like it's always been this way. And that's obviously, as you know, is not really the best way to kind of look inside and grow and adapt, especially with AI and all these different practices. Right. With evolving environments and the way that things are moving so quickly right now, you really have to think a little bit different than what you did even two years ago, five years ago, for sure, 10 years ago. Absolutely. I mean, cultural fit is really important. I absolutely believe that. And that's where the data doesn't necessarily line up with every little spot. You have to know if somebody is going to be a good cultural fit for the other members on the team. And I think that's where me, I'll talk about myself, personally leaned into my gut. Yes. And it worked out most of the time, but that was after I had somebody like you say, you know, this person's qualified because of this, this, this, this, and this. Yeah. But I have heard you talk about like somebody lining up perfectly and then a manager coming to you and saying, hey, you know, I know they had eight interviews. They absolutely line know perfectly for everything that we want but I don know I just don feel right about it or something like that So you talk about that often Can you just do a couple of words about that kind of I think gut reaction is very important especially when it comes to non-tangible stuff, right? I feel like when you look at sales, when you look at evaluate people, the way that we used to be able to evaluate people is very, very simple, right? You have conversations with them, you get all of the information on them, deal sizes, all that stuff to make sure that the alignment, the cycles, all that stuff kind of makes sense. They have the experience doing that. Now we used to be able to look at like W-2s, right? And do the math backwards and say, Hey, can you sell? We can't do that anymore. Right? So in one aspect, I think a lot of the sales game or sales hiring kind of is, it's just at best an educated decision, right? It's a highly educated decision. So your gut does play a big part in that. But when you look at somebody that has all the boxes checked, and sometimes people are just very indecisive. They're very, very indecisive, right? And when you kind of rely on your gut too much, and you don't utilize any sort of data points to it, it makes it really, really hard, right, to kind of determine that. So, I think it's sort of like a double-edged sword in a way. I mean, do you think it's just fear of making a bad decision and how this? So, okay. Yeah, a big part of it, right? Because if you make a bad hire, right? And a lot of the times that this happens when there's like big periods of growth, right? Like you come in, you have to grow. Oh, I need seven AEs. I need five SDRs, right? Like you go because you have to grow the team because your number is not changing. whether you have one SDR or two SDRs and seven AEs or 12 AEs, that number is not changing, rainfall or whatever it is. That's when bad practices sort of get exposed the most, right? And that's when people just, you know, they look at the numbers of data and they kind of just say, okay, well, we really need to rely on our gut now because we just need people in the door. Right. We've got butts in seats. We've got to make a... Butts in seats. Yeah, butts in seats. And I think when you're forced to make decisions like that on the fly, that's when a lot of the time those decisions are usually made. Yeah. One of the things that I, as a fractional CRO, one of the big mistakes that I see, especially in startups, is hiring the wrong person from a sales perspective initially and burning through a year or two of dollars and then actually not getting anything out of it. Zero in return. It's the hardest thing. It is. It's the hardest thing for a coupler. It's also hard because it's really hard to attract the really, really good salespeople when you've got to pay them a ton. So you put like your cousin Vinny in the spot or, you know, one of your friends from school or something thinking, how hard is sales? It's no big deal. so it's something that i try to stop most of my clients from doing at a really early stage but they do it anyways and i guess it's just kind of part of the pain that you have to go through in a startup until you get enough funds where you can literally build a real team with real marketing all at one time because the other big mistake i see is they'll bring in a salesperson and have absolutely no marketing structure right and sales people are not marketing people marketing people are not salespeople. They're two definitive jobs. They cross over a little bit, but I think that that gets confused a lot. I literally just had that conversation yesterday. Did you? Yeah. I have that conversation almost every day. Every single day. It's like, okay, well, we just need somebody that's going to be able to go and be a hunter. Okay, great. Well, what tools are you giving them? Oh, they'll have Salesforce. Okay. Yeah. Not a tool for finding deals. Nobody knows who you are, right? You're selling exotic cheese on the blockchain. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody knows who you are, right? So you're going to go and you're going to ask me to pull somebody from, let's say, a big name company, right? And you want to be able to pay them peanuts with no clear way of OTE and OTEs and startups. Anyone listening, please, please, please, please, please. brutal honesty here right your ote in a startup if you're a founding ae is complete and utter bullshit okay you need to be able to just be prepared to live on that base salary for at least a year yeah if you're a zero to one founding ae that's what you're taking and you're taking this risk so you better love that company you better believe in what that product is and what it's doing. It could be used as a awesome resume builder. You can go in and say, you did XYZ, you helped them product, you wore all these hats. But in terms of commission and all that fun stuff, just be realistic with yourself. You're not making a ton of commission on that first year, at least. Yeah, that's so true. That's really absolutely good advice. And I think most sales people understand that. Like it's really difficult to get somebody who's an established guy selling to finance, for example, to walk away from a big job. Right. To go to a startup. I mean, the chances are that you could get really, really wealthy if you do a great job and you stay there for four years and it takes off. But it's all kinds of things like how much funding do they have in the bank? How much capital are you willing to expand on a company or expand on a company that doesn't have much capital, but you're going into your customers and introducing them. And then what if they fail in four months or five months? These are all things that need to be considered when it comes to startup sales. Yeah. It's funny. It's Fugazi. It's like that's seen in Wolf of Wall Street, right? Where they're just like, it's fairy dust. It doesn't exist. You just don't know. And And there are plenty of people that do it. I mean, one of my first clients a couple of years ago, they were a zero from one build, right? Zero, like 100% scratch. And my buddy Tony placed him there. And Tony's a little fucked up. He's a little fucked up. Like he just loves that sort of like environment. There are people that are like that. And that's what people enjoy. That's what they like doing, right? They couldn't work at a Salesforce. They couldn't work at a Oracle or one of these bigger companies because of the red tape, the structure, all that stuff. Somebody breathing down their neck, looking at their KPIs. You know, like it's just people succeed at different places. And if you're one of those people that's a little, hey, you're a little out there. You like rolling the dice. You want to build something, then being a founding AE is awesome. But if you think you're going to go there from a sales force and be convinced that you're going to replenish that President's Club check that you made last year at this new place, it's... No. Unless it's you have the product of the world, your AI product is far beyond anything we've ever seen before, that can happen. Agreed. So tell me, what is one of the dumbest or the funniest reasons you've ever heard for not hiring someone perfect for a job? Dumb reasons for hiring somebody? Not hiring someone. For not hiring somebody. Yeah, there's been a lot of times where you have somebody who's like a proven performer, right, that's looking to fight their way up, right? Let's say you have like a mid-market AE who is ready for enterprise. this person's proven that they're ready to take the next level like i've seen managers just come out and just make it not happen just cut them off at the knees because they didn't think that they were ready or jealousy issues just like stupid things like that you don't want to cut the line kind of stuff but in terms of the dumb reasons yeah i don't know you got me that was what i kept trying to think of the other night too and i couldn't think of so That was a good answer. That was a good answer. Cutting the line, they'll cut them off because they don't want somebody coming in and being more professional or being aggressive about moving up, that kind of thing. Yeah. That's very insecure of them, by the way. Dumb HR. Yeah, dumb shit. Dumb shit that HR doesn't really have a backbone to kind of stand on. If you could fix one broken thing about hiring tomorrow, what do you think it would be? This, and I regret, I was thinking, I should actually talk about this, but I just, we're going to go there. I think when it comes to hiring, people don't hate recruiters. People don't hate the hiring process. They hate having their time wasted. Yeah, that makes sense. The one thing that people cannot stand is having their time wasted. And the one thing that a lot of companies do is they waste people's time. Like I never had anybody get mad at me because they did not get the job They go through an interview process Hey they chose somebody else Okay Sucks man But like I always pick up the phone when you call right Or when you have something else when people get pissed off or when they have gotten pissed off at me in the past, when I was growing and understanding the business and just over time was when I would just vanish out of thin air after putting somebody through like a 10 step interview process. Right. And just stupid things like that. You're with somebody the entire step of the process and then you vanish. Right. And I think the biggest part of that is on the recruiting side, people just don't have balls. However you want to say it. Right. I mean, that's just the way that it kind of isn't having like they're, they're not going to tell conversations. Yeah. A hundred percent get the job. Yeah. You didn't get the job. You didn't get the job. Like they, It's easier to not have the conversations with people than it is to have the conversations with people. But they don't realize that the chicken shit mentality that they have is actually hurting them. It's pissing people off more. It's hurting your company. It's hurting your brand. It's hurting your personal brand. Because odds are, if you're recruiting in that space, that person that you just ghosted really hard, there's ghosting that's like, hey, I picked up the phone. And were you interested in this job? Yeah, yeah, I'll get back to you. And you just kind of lose touch. It's not ghosting. The ghosting I'm talking about is you go through all those steps and then you just kind of fall off. Your name, people remember that. I remember everyone that ghosted me really badly. And I'm sure the people that I did that to when I was growing up in the business, I'm sure that they remember me as well. right and i think the biggest thing that a lot of these companies when they hire and onboard recruiters and they bring on like hiring managers is they much rather not have the conversation because it's uncomfortable you're you're literally rejecting somebody it's one thing to get like rejected by a client or a some a prospect that doesn't want to buy your shit that doesn't want to buy your deal it doesn't want to go up and buy a live person but it's another thing to say hey listen we like somebody better than you that's a hard conversation to have I guess. I mean, I don't think it needs to be a hard conversation. Not every interview, you don't get every job that you interview for. That's actually really unprofessional and really unfortunate that companies do that. And I'm going to say one more thing about that. Salespeople talk. So if you think that you're doing something like that and nobody's going to hear about it, believe me, everybody in the industry will hear that this is what this company did. People know. So you get a reputation. And once that starts to go down within salespeople, especially in a smaller industry, like the AI industry is a limited number of really successful salespeople that have been around for a while. They all know each other. They are interconnected. And once that happens, people are going to know about it. Yeah. They'll just know about it. So definitely not a cool thing to do at all. If you're not hiring someone, tell them I'm not hiring you and be done with it. That's all you have to say. We've gone another direction, period. end of story that's it like that is it and that's like a lot of companies kind of a lot of recruiters that are internal right they hide behind the oh well hr says that we can't give reasoning and all that fun stuff okay fine like fine you just no one's asking you right no one's asking you to do that what we're asking you is to just pick up the phone and have a conversation with someone and then there's a lot of people in my industry susan that are just they're just so hoity-toity They get worked up over details that are like, well, maybe the person doesn't want to be rejected by a person or maybe they prefer an email. It's like, what are we talking about? Pick up the phone and be a big boy, be a big girl. Right. If you're interviewing, you can't have it both ways. If you're getting rejected, be rejected by a person. Right. And then you bitch if you got rejected via email. Right. So too many people want it both ways. That's why I just think that having the conversation, pulling the bandaid off is the easiest way to do it. And so many people just do chicken shit and afraid to do it. I mean, we all have icky parts of our job that we have to do. That's just one that the recruiter has to do. Are there other things that you wish the industry would stop doing in the hiring process or maybe do more of in the hiring process outside of that? So I can give you one of my hot takes on hiring, especially in sales. A lot of people hate those sales assessment tests. I'm a fan of them. Oh, yeah. I like them too. Because one of the reasons is they're never going to be perfect. They're never going to be perfectly calibrated, right? Because people are individuals. People are completely different, like we talked about before. Where are you selling? What's the product? How much training do they have? All that fun stuff. People are not data. Data is not people, obviously. But what it does in my... And what I like to kind of utilize is just it opens up the conversation so much more, right? When you have somebody, let's say you really like Mary. Mary is great, right? But Mary, she's saying all the right things. She's interviewing for an AE role, but there's something you're just like, something's not clicking, right? Something's not there. That assessment that you have or the assessment that you've done, it just opens up the conversation. Let's say if it came back that she's 20 percentile as a hunter and like 85 as an account manager, you could have those conversations. right and it leads to just a lot more transparency and things that you're not going to have to find out six seven months later when you hired mary as an ae and move her over i think we had that one of the people that were the agencies that we worked with didn't work out and we had to move them over or something like that and i don't think that they took an assessment so well as a hiring CRO and a fractional CRO. I go into companies all the time. And one of the first things that I do is an evaluation of the salespeople to determine if they are the right archetype for the job that they're in. And I would say seven out of 10 times, they're not in the right role. They're either way too technical for the role that they're in. They have a hunter background when they're farming. They have a farming background when they should be hunting. And that's actually a really big problem. And when you look at it holistically, a whole sales organization, if they're off that way, it's a big reason why things are not working in the company. So I'm a fan of doing it before a person is hired. So you know exactly what archetype they are and where they fit in, if they fit in to what you're selling. And that's actually doing the salesperson a favor too, because they don't need to be in the wrong role for the work that they know how to do well. Right. A hundred percent. I think that's really an important point. Right? And the other aspect of it is, let's say you really like somebody and it comes off that they're not a fit for the role that they're actually working for or they're applying for. That's not to say that you can't find another role with them or maybe you move some things around to get them in or team them up with somebody that's maybe the opposite of them, right? There's just so many different moving parts. It's not an end-all, be-all. And that's the one thing that I always make sure that our clients understand. It's like, if you're going to use these tests, if you're going to utilize them, utilize them as information, not as the end-all, be-all. Because you could lose really good talent that way. Just keeping everything as a grain of salt and understanding that. Yeah. And I think it becomes a more important issue. One of the things that you and I have talked about is that when I was coming up in sales, we had significant sales training in most of the companies, the big companies that we worked in, like not product training, actual strategic selling training as part of our job. We would, you know, IBM, Oracle, SAP, Siemens, Motorola, all those companies would have like six month training programs that they would bring people into, train them on how to actually sell so that they were selling machines, not just on the product itself. I don't think that exists anymore. I think that there's a lot of companies that are just bringing people in. They'll bring them in young out of school and teach them about the product. And then they've got to learn the hard way how to sell. And that's tough. And it's really tough when you're hiring because it becomes clearly obvious that this person doesn't have any strategic background, doesn't know how to connect the dots. So that's something that I'm trying to work on actually through this show is helping salespeople kind of understand different areas that are really important to bone up on so that you can be a really good, successful salespeople. because a lot of us that went through that training now are aging out. So there's literally a lot of opportunity for new salespeople to get that kind of training and be exceptional at selling. It's just there's not a lot of places to get it. No. I mean when you really think about it you have these kids that come out of college right They AEs they SDRs but their training is a couple of days on the phones maybe with an SDR manager By the way, an SDR manager that likely has not made a phone call or a cold call in the past like two and a half, three years, right? They just have been able to do it. They've been skating by. Then they're on the phones. They're hitting it. They figure it out on their own, right? And then they're ready to be AEs. but they're AEs at these smaller companies that they go up and they don't really have like a ton of sales training. They don't have really nothing. Right. And they go to startup, to startup, to startup, to startup, right. Like look at by the time, if I was to stay in house, right. I probably would have like 30, 40 jobs by the time I decided to retire. And that's like the track that these people are on. Right. Because there's no more 10 years at Oracle. There's no more eight years at IBM. And a lot of those jobs, that's where people made those giant, giant connections. Yes. Right? Absolutely. So it kind of sucks. It's a changing of the times. And I don't know what the answer is. I just find people. I'm not a salesperson. Like, at the end of the day, you know, it's just really, we have to evolve. And whether that is companies, these smaller AI companies that are trying to bring in all of these big sellers, invest in actual sales training for these people, bring back the Sandlers of the world, bring those kind of trainings back. I just don't know how people are going to be really, really, really good fucking old school sellers anymore. I just. I don't think they're going to be. I mean, even like a Sandler, which I'm a big fan of, by the way. is very niche. It's not an expansive type of program. So yeah, just, I mean, it is definitely a start for sure, but it's not, uh, yeah, it's not the end all be all. And it's just, uh, right. I don't know, man. I don't know. Well, we're going to see what happens. We'll see what happens. We are. Let me ask you this, like from the perspective of being a CRO, you're in it every day and all a lot of your clients are ai what do you see as the biggest challenge with ai and sales that we're going to see in the next five years and i'm not saying that ai is going to replace salespeople because they're not but like what's the balance like how good do you think this ai is going to get, right, in terms of like being even close to having the conversation of like AI replacing sellers? Well, your guess is as good as mine, honestly. But what I would say is that I think it will make the sellers that remain far more efficient. They're going to have, they already have a lot of new tools that we never expected to have. I think the lower end market is where like the small sales markets. Yeah. SMB, like the mid market stuff. Yeah. I think that a lot of that stuff honestly will be done through chatbots for sure. Like I don't think that they're going to need people to do that kind of work because they'll get so good. All of the answers will probably be more accurate, more efficient, faster for a customer than talking to an individual. I mean, they'll always be a default person, but those people will probably be more call center type people, not people that are on the road. From an enterprise perspective, I mean, I think AI is going to be able to, the good, really good salespeople analyze their customers' business. So say, take a finance guy. If you're a really smart salesperson, you read the annual reports, you understand the imperatives of the CEO for the year that you're up against, and you map your products to what the imperatives are, and you figure out how to help customers win in their individual roles by attacking those imperatives so that the CEO makes his goals, right? That's the smart way a high-level enterprise salesperson works. Do you need a salesperson to do that? I don't think you do. I don't know. Not anymore. It used to be really hard, tedious work. You do need somebody to connect the dots, though, So you can go from here's the imperative, here are the people that need to understand what your product will do for them. So I think it's going to be really interesting. I think the work is going to be far more efficient. It's not going to be as much manual, obviously, even in those areas. So we'll see. I don't think that salespeople will be out of business, but I do think that there be fewer people necessary. a small business will probably not require salespeople. Yeah. But we'll see. I think a lot of that is going to fall into marketing, right? Like also when you look at like the SMB, like the really low enterprise stuff. Yeah. It's like, how are people going to find those companies if there's not somebody going in and cold calling them, right? So maybe there'll be a much more of an emphasis on if AI actually moves more into the sales side of it, maybe it'll be an uptick in marketing, right? Or something along those lines. I'm not saying that they won't cold call. I'm saying that it might not be people doing it. Why do you need people to do that? Speech recognition is really good. Oh, it's true. And if you can answer any question on the fly, why do you, I mean, LLMs have been kind of restricted, restrictive in the past, you know? So you can't just typically answer any open-end question effectively, but now you can. Like the new Alexa that's coming out. You say something, it answers your question. So there'll be people making the calls, but it probably won't be humans making the calls. It's crazy. It's fucking crazy. So we'll see what happens. So I have to ask you one last question. I think we're running out of time. Can you share what's been your one stare down the bull moment, a moment where you have had an issue and you had to stand up and say, listen, even if it's super unpopular, what you're going to say is, listen, this is how I believe it has to be. I feel like I have those all of the time, especially when it comes to hiring, especially when it comes to like fighting for people that are people that really deserve a chance. I feel I've had numerous times where someone's getting nixed out or they're not looking at somebody because of stupid little check boxes. And that's what hiring is. And unfortunately, that's where a lot of it has become. But standing up and being able to say, no, listen, everything that you're saying is, I get where your concerns are. But at the end of the day, this person, they're 150% of the number because X, Y, Z. being able to stand up for people. I think I have one of those moments at least once a week. And you get over if somebody might get a little pissed off, especially if it's a hiring manager or a CRO or someone like that. We're like, what is this guy talking about? But the beautiful thing is if you have data and all that fun stuff in your interview process, normally salespeople are pretty logical because you have numbers and you have data that support everything that we're talking about. And that's what we talked about earlier is moving away from the gut feeling. But yeah, I feel like staring down the bowl, so to speak, is like half of what you do, what I do. And I feel like we have those moments all the time. I mean, I have all of those moments with my wife, too, but we're not gonna talk about that. No one cares about that. You really do have more stare down the bowl moments than my average guest. I gotta be honest. All your videos, they're stare down the bowl. Oh, yeah. Which I love. Yeah. It's so. Yes. Yeah. That's just a creative outlet. It's creative, but it's also making people think. I think it makes people think about. That's the point of it. It makes me think now. I'm like, I think to myself, would Sean think what I'm saying or thinking right now about hiring this person? Would he make a video about me? And if the answer is yes, I have to reevaluate the way that I'm thinking about something. Sometimes I'm just taking a piss too out of people. So listen, I'm so happy you came on the show. I really appreciate you joining. Yeah. If anybody wants to dig deeper into this conversation with Sean or I, please feel free to hit both of us up on LinkedIn. We're both on there. Happy to have any further discussions. And, of course, watch Sean's videos and send him some recruiting business at the same time because his videos are job limiting, in my opinion. So he needs the business. Yeah. They really are something. They're really, really fun. So thanks again, Sean. So good to see you. It's always a pleasure to be here, Susan, and I appreciate it. And it's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Bye now. Thank you for listening to Stare Down the Ball. If today's conversations spark new ideas, share it with a colleague and keep the momentum going. The future belongs to leaders who act. So subscribe and join us again next week. This podcast is part of the Sound Advice FM network. Sound Advice FM. Women's Voices Amplified.