Episode 520: The Best of Habits & Hustle: Touré Roberts (ONE Church LA Founder)

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it. So today we have Tore Roberts. He is the founding pastor of the One Church, which is one of the most influential faith and empowerment congregations in the entire world. Is that correct? It is. Is that correct? Yeah, only because it's here in LA. So it's not the biggest, but the reach because of those who come and those who subscribe to it makes it influential. So it's influential city plus influential people come there. So that's part of it. The other part of it is online we have over 700,000 subscribers to our channel. How many? 700,000 subscribers to our channel. On YouTube, right? Yes, of course. I saw that. I couldn't believe how many that is. Yeah, it's a lot, which is a whole other, how did that even happen? You know, this is crazy. Well, first of all, I want to start by saying, before we started this podcast, when I was asking you, how do you even become a pastor? I'm Jewish. I don't know. I want you to tell me that whole thing. But I was saying that for those who don't know, your wife also is a pastor, Sarah, and your father-in-law who is super famous, T.D. Jakes. And I was under the assumption that you kind of became a pastor through him, like you met Sarah and they kind of brought you into the business. And you said, no, no, no, no, actually, that's absolutely not what happened. So I want to really start by your backstory, like how you started, then how you kind of became like this family affair unit. So let's start from the beginning. Great story. Okay, go ahead, you're on. So my background is business and technology. So before the faith world, before the spiritual world, I used to build data centers for Fortune 500 companies. And so that was me. I was very successful. From that, I started my own company that was a complimentary service to the corporation that I was working for. That company took off and made me more money than the corporation that I was working for. And so things were fantastic and great externally, but internally. I was a mess. You know, honestly, I've always been a good person, but I was pretty full of myself. And I just wasn't, I was puffed up and proud. And so I had a spiritual awakening. I was 26 years old, I had a spiritual awakening. And ultimately for me, it was- What was this? Why? What kind of, what was the kind of the catalyst? So I was married and my marriage was falling apart. And we got separated and we were splitting up. And I said, all right, you know, my family was my stability. I was still crazy and wild and doing stuff that, you know, a married man shouldn't do, to be honest with you. I was young in my 20s, no excuse, but it's just, it is what it is. And so if my family's structure and my stability was going to be disrupted, my conscious said, hey, you better try to get close to God. You better really try to get yourself together spiritually. Because, you know, karma, you know, is a- You're a bitch. I mean, you swear, are you allowed to? I am a grown man. I'm a grown man. Grown, amen. So you could swear if you want. For sure. Okay. And you see, I would, see, I would think that you wouldn't be able to. No, no, no. I was a person before I was a pastor. Yes, that's true. And I will always be a person. And to be honest with you, my audience are a bunch of cussards. Really? Okay. Yes, yes. Who is your audience? Like, who are the- Yeah, I mean, it's diverse, but a lot of young people, a lot of millennials, my average follower, if you would, is between 25 and 49, 70% female, 30% male. They're young professionals. Locally, many of them are in entertainment. They're in the business. And I think for the most part, they're people who maybe wouldn't subscribe to traditional faith, a traditional expression of faith. They're influencers, they're culture shakers, and they just want something that's real. They don't mind faith as long as faith is big enough to fit their lives. Right. And so I hope I answered that question. No, no, because that's what I was saying earlier. You wrote, I should say also, Tori wrote a book called Balance. This is your third book. We were going to talk all about it after. And what I was found to be really nice and delightful, I guess, was what, while I was reading it, was that it is very mainstream. It's for people, you don't have to be super religious or very Christian or very this or very that. And there's something, your teachings and what you do is very much, it can resonate with lots of different people. But anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you, so continue. So you're having this life crisis, basically. This life crisis. And so I started really seeking God. And the only interpretation of God I had was my mom's church. And so, but the only thing is my mom's church was very small. And I don't mean small in number, although that would probably be accurate. They were small in their perspectives. And so I couldn't go there, but I said, all right, and it was a Christian church. Let me try out this other church that I felt like was, it was more young. The guy was older, but he was drawing young people. And I started sitting in that church and it was like every message he was talking to me. It was like, wow, I don't know if you've ever had that happen where you're somewhere and somebody's speaking and what they're saying is resonating deep within. And for me, the message was clear. This was over about a seven month period. You need to really give your life to God. You need to really prioritize your spirituality. And I did that. I didn't think that it was going to be anything more than me just practicing my spirituality. But when I started talking to people about my spirituality, it was having an effect on them. And so I didn't really choose ministry. Ministry was kind of like the organic overflow of what was happening in my life personally. And then I did have a moment where I felt like this divine calling. I mean, that's a long story, but ultimately there was a series of dreams. The message was clear. You have to love people the way that you love your firstborn child. And you have a gift to communicate to people in a way that unlocks the gift that they have that they just don't know it. So again, that was a whole ordeal. That would be a whole other podcast to tell you how that unfolded. But you were having dreams though. You were saying like, I know you don't want to go like go that deep into the weeds. Although I now I'm super interested. Okay, we can do it. But so that's kind of what that was that kind of the precipice. You were having these dreams about that. And then that said, okay, I'm going to pivot to becoming putting myself in the ministry. Is that basically? Yeah, I was having these dreams and what were you seeing in the dream? Oh, God, I'll tell you this one dream. So I'm in the dream. It's me and my daughter. And well, first prior to that scene in the dream, I'm taken up. I ascend at a high rate of speed and then I come to a halting stop. It's just a stop. But prior to stopping, I burst through this cosmic clear film. And then when I got there, it was like I knew everything. There was nothing I did not know. It was strange. Like I had just total knowledge and then cut to me and my daughter, my firstborn child. Her name is Lauren. And in the dream, she had a gift. She could fly, but she didn't know that she had this gift. And so in this dimension, there was a whole bunch of hordes of evil people or beings, whatever they were, creatures, and they were coming to get us. And my response to it was to tell Lauren, I said, baby, fly, baby, fly. She's like, dad, I can't fly. I'm like, yes, you can. And I believed in her wings. And I'm like, baby, you can fly. She's like, no, I said, just put out your wings and fly. And she is lifted up and we both are lifted up and we're saved from this horde. And so that happened a few times. And so and I woke up and I'm sweating and I'm crying. I feel deeply moved by this dream. And when I really saw like the interpretation of the dream, it was clear. First of all, you have to love every human being the same way you love your firstborn child. Two, you can't fly. You don't have wings. Your gift is to speak to your gift is to see the wings that other people have and to communicate. You have, you can compel their wings and they will fly. And as they are lifted up, you will be lifted up. And it was so very, very profound dream. And it's been that way when I when I see people, I mean, first of all, loving on that level is not easy, but but I practice it. You know, I practice. I don't care if you're homeless on the street. You know, obviously, evil people are kind of hard to love and I'm still a work in progress on that. But but just because you're struggling, you've had misfortune in your life or you've done, you know, you just haven't been the best person. I'm very compassionate. And that's a gift. But I've seen that I've seen when I see people, I just see their wings like and and so, you know, from the books that I write to the messages that I share, it's all about me speaking to what's in you. And I just know I just know it's in there. And if and if you'll listen and if we spend time together, if you listen, there's going to be something in what I say that unlocks your wings. And as you're lifted, I'm lifted because I've got to I've got to do what I do. That's the calling. So before before this dream and before you were 26, now this this never like this was never even occurred to you. To be involved in anything like this. Absolutely not. I'll be honest with you, Jennifer, if you would have come to me 25 years ago and say, hey, Toray, you know, I just discerned that you're going to be a pastor, you're going to be a minister. I would have laughed uncontrollably, asked you what you were smoking and where I might be able to get. Exactly, right? It was it was like that. No, I never saw it. Ironically enough, I used to want to be a child psychologist when I was very young. Oh, OK. And so but I went into business. And so it's it's it's a strange journey the way that that life takes you. But you said those you said a couple of things that was interesting like that to be doing this, you have to love everybody else like you love your first born. You have to. Who says all these? Is this what you say? Or did that? Is that what happened in the dream? Or does someone tell you that? Or no, this is that. And this is my calling. I don't think that that's a universal approach to calling. But in the dream, when I that's what they were that's what the feeling. Oh, yeah, it was good because I'm like, what's the significance when I'm really questioning, you know, God, you know, my interpretation of God? What is what's the significance of, you know, I get my gift to communicate, you know, to see the gift. I get the person has the gift and they can fly. And I said, but what why did you use my first born child, my daughter? I mean, I just, you know, she just got I just married her, you know. She's away, she's away. But why did you use her? And he was like, think about why do you think I would use her? And I thought about how I feel about her. I love I love all my kids at the time. I only had two. I only had my two daughters. We have six combined now. But and I love both, you know, my daughter, Taya, who was the middle child. I love her immensely. But there's something about your first born, the one that brings you into fatherhood, the one that changes your life. The moment that I knew she was coming, my life changed immediately. And so he's like, it's plain. Look, think about how you feel about her. You love her. You love her unconditionally. You believe in her. You want to protect her. You want to see her prosper, thrive. If you love everybody, I send you like that. You're going to be an incredible leader, incredible spiritual leader. Do you hear voices or is it just like that's what I'm trying to get? Like, oh, yeah. I like what would you hear? Is it just a feeling? Is it like an intuition? Yeah, it could. It happens several ways. But the best way for me to describe it is it's a knowing, you know, I think that, you know, and again, this is my interpretation. But if our creator gave us ears to hear, nose to smell, eyes to see, hands to have tactile experiences, then why would he not create us with an organ of perception? Some sort of ability to perceive things that are that transcend the natural realm. And so I call it my knower and, you know, some I call an instinct or what have you. But once you cultivate that, we'll call it an instinct. Once you sense something, for example, here's what happens a lot of times. A lot of times you'll feel something, you'll sense something, and maybe it's I should act on something or not act on something. And then you don't act on it or you do act on it. And you realize, wow, man, that was that was bigger than me. I felt like this might happen, but I didn't respond and this is the outcome I got. And so there is this kind of like a trial and error. You develop that organ of perception. And sooner or later, you just know to call it God, to call it divine. Because once you begin to trust it and step out in it and employ it, it leads you to spaces and places that transcend coincidence. You know, a couple of people I know who are not who don't do what you do, but they think that they are intuitive and they are vibrating, I guess, at a different level or a different dimension or the different dimension. That's how they would describe it. But it's very hard to wrap your head around it because they say that we're in dimension three. Do you know this whole thing about diamond? That's not really as a whole other podcast. But I guess my point is, do you believe then, like if you are, you felt that feeling, you're like, do you feel like you're vibrating at a different place? And like you're more, and also you're doing it because you are acting on that gut intuition versus ignoring it. I think a lot of people ignore those feelings and they just push them down or they get distracted. What made you not just get distracted or push them down? What made you act on those? Because they worked. It worked, you know, when I didn't do it. And now that intuitiveness, I do kind of remember that from being a kid. Oh, you do. I do kind of remember like, you know, I would sense, you know, hey, something's going on, something's getting ready to happen. You know, I grew up in a challenging neighborhood. I grew up in Watts. So, you know, I was starting to East Oakland, grew up in Watts. And there would just be, you could just feel like something's going to happen. I'm like, hey, guys, I'm out of here. And then you'd hear the next morning there was a shooting or something like that took place or you're at a club. I used to go to a club, of course. And, you know, you had a club and you just feel like, man, something's weird here, you know, sunset, Roxbury. I used to do all that here. Right, of course. You know, and so in hindsight, I remember that, but this is different. And I think that you begin to trust it because it never disappoints. It almost becomes unnatural to suppress it, to ignore it. And so it's the fruit of following it or the pain of not following it that really puts you in a place to trust it. Also, because like you were just saying, there's a good segue to your background. Like you were gripping Watts. You said weren't you involved in shooting also? Like didn't you get shot by a drive-by shooting? I did. And so in that area, you know, I was blessed because my family, I had a great family. Thank God. That makes a big difference. Yeah, a great family. And the street that I lived on was safe. It's like there was like drugs on the next street, you know, shootings on another street. But like for some reason now, I believe it was God's protection. But for some reason on my street, it was safe. But, you know, if you leave your street and that's what I did. My mom always told me like, look, you can use my car at 16, but just don't have anybody in the car. And I'm like, well, what do you know? I can have somebody in the car with a guy that I had in the car was gang affiliated. And so so we're out driving and, you know, he gestures at some guy and these guys are grown. I'm 16 and they just pull out a gun to start shooting. And so at 16 years old, yeah, I got I got shot and nearly died. And where they shoot? Where they get you? They shot me in the back, the shoulder area and the bullet went forward and lodged in my esophagus. And so my esophagus is ruptured. I'm spitting up blood. I'm thinking, oh, I've seen this in the movies. I'm dying. Oh my gosh. You know, and it was traumatizing. And at 16, quite frankly, I prepared myself to die. And I remember being in the hospital. My mom came in the hospital and I just said, mom, you know, I'm sorry, you know, you told me not to have anybody in the car. And I did. And here I am. And I said, but mom, don't worry. You know, if I die, you know, I'm going to heaven. I'm trying to encourage my mom and she wouldn't have that. And, you know, she prayed for me. And the next thing, you know, supernaturally, I was healed. The bullet moved, which it's a whole other story, but it it lads itself in a safe place. And, and, you know, I was back on my feet. But it was it was a lesson. You know, maybe that lesson was maybe that one was less about intuition, but more about listening to your mama, boy. Yeah, right. Mama, no, best boy. I was going to say, next time you listen to your mom. Exactly. And I do today, by the way. You do. OK, good. That's good. I like to hear that. And then I have a mom to a little boy. So then, then how did you, so what was the next thing? So do you go to school for this? Like, what happened? Do you practice? Because, you know, like, you have to write these. So like, how do you, how do you start this thing where now you have like almost a million people following you on on YouTube with this and you have a congregation? And what, like, what do you do? Like, what's the process then? Now you know you have a gift or you have a calling or a knowing. Then what? So it depends based on the denomination what the requirements are. But for me, what happened was I discovered my gift. I discovered that, wow, you know, this is happening to me. And as I'm sharing this with people, their lives are changing. Now, I'm a business person. I can't, you know, remember, I was brought up in business. So I'm thinking structure. How do I get the biggest impact for my effort? You know, this is great to sit around a coffee shop and talk to your friends and whatever, but like, that's time and energy and effort. And I just want to have a big impact. So the business guy, I mean, he said, you got to create a space, you know, now I didn't even know it was a church. I didn't, I didn't come up really around the church. My mom, you know, I was around Easter and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I didn't know the, the business of church. I didn't know the structure church. I didn't care about any of that. I'm like, listen, I've got this gift. I've got this attraction. People are attracted to me and their lives are changing. So I went out and I got, I rent out a hotel room in Culver City, you know, and, you know, put my money, own money. And I didn't know that, you know, that, that you can be a nonprofit and the people can say, I didn't care. I want to reach people. So I took my money. I start, you know, I start in this hotel room and I just, you know, I created flyers. You got to see this first flyer was so pathetic. I was in business, not graphic design. It was, it was a troce and I'm embarrassed now. I'll show you one. Okay, sure. Yeah, I'd like to see it. Yeah. But, but I just started and on the first day, 80 people came to the hotel, the hotel room. And what did you do? You just did a speech, stood up, gave a speech, you know, asked who wanted to join this, this movement and, you know, and what was the called? It was called saints. It was a corny name. I changed it, but it was called like saints united. And ultimately what that meant to me was, you know, saints is kind of a church term, you know, you know, saints and, which is anyway, I'm sure people love that. I don't want to be dishonorable. But united was, my thing was all about unity. I saw, you know, I, you know, I was born in Oakland. Oakland is a very diverse city. I grew up in LA. LA is a very diverse city. But I did notice in the church space, it wasn't really diverse. You know, you had, you had black churches, you had white churches. You didn't really have, you have it now, but I didn't see a lot of that. So I wanted diversity, not just in ethnicity, but in, you know, in socioeconomic posture. I wanted people with diverse thought. I just wanted, I just felt like God's kingdom is this big, beautiful, diverse kingdom. Or else I couldn't serve a God who wasn't diverse. It was just, everything had to be justice. Right. That would be very shortly for me. So that's why that's where it was, you know, so saints united ministries and. Do people, do you charge people to come to the hotel room? No. Or it was just free for everybody? Free for everyone except me. For you, exactly. Except you, right? Who paid for the hotel room? Exactly. How long do you speak for? So that was, you have a speech? Yeah, I had a speech that was probably about half an hour at 40 minutes. I had someone sing a song, you know, and then I, you know, who wants to join? Who wants to be a part of this? And a few people joined. One of my best friend for now 30 plus years, he was like the first person, you know, Kenny is my friend. He's, you know, biracial. He's black in Mexican. And he was like, you know, go with it. He's been with me until this day. Really? Oh, wow. It started like that and I'd meet hotel rooms and then for a long time, honestly, it didn't grow, you know, it stayed, you know, small for two years. And then I felt you talk about intuition. I felt like I was supposed to move it. It was in Culver City to North Hollywood. Didn't know why. Why do I go to North Hollywood? And most of the people, the whopping, you know, a few dozen people who were coming all lived, you know, South of the 10 freeway. And I said, Hey guys, you know, I feel divinely inspired to uproot here and plant in North Hollywood. And that didn't go over very well, you know, because the mentality Valley said that's just like you're in another state. Right. So I did it. And when I planted that church in North Hollywood, it exploded. It just by changing location where you are is so important. And it exploded and took off and became what it is today. Well, so how did you get, so it went from having 80 or 25 or whatever people, what was it? How did you put the flyers to? They just started to come more and this was interesting because you're in my background was business, you know, and, and, and marketing. So I created this nice flyer. I did all the work. I did, you know, data, you know, data on the community. I was doing data back before people were thinking about data. This is 2004, you know, and I, who's here? What's their age? What are they like? And based on that, I put together this awesome flyer into this major mass thing and nobody showed up. I don't think one person from that out from that outreach effort showed up. And, and I felt like, how did I fail in this? And I really felt God say, this is not going to happen by human effort. This is not going to happen because you're so smart and you've got this background in business and marketing. That's all cute. But I need you to know that what I'm going to do, I'm going to do. And so I stopped doing that and people just started walking in off the street and just, you know, I just set up shop, did my thing and people started coming. So you stopped all the marketing, you stopped all the flyers and they just started to walk, like walk in the door. They literally started walking the door. And here's a funny story. So, so even though I was different, I was fresh and I was, you know, I was, I was, I had a different approach to faith than what Congress should look like. It was very, it was not, I thought it wasn't conservative. You know, now I realize it actually was more conservative than I thought it was. But conservative for me would be, you know, you're in there, you're shirt and you tie or whatever. I didn't have a shirt and a tie, but I did have my dockers and my braided belt and my loafers and a blazer. And so this young guy comes in there and this guy's got on jeans and he's got on a T-shirt this 2004. He's got Chuck Taylor's on jeans and a T-shirt and he comes in, he sits in the back and I'm like, this is a peculiar sight in the house of worship. This guy's got on jeans. So he leaves out and he comes back and he brings about four people with him. And guess what? They're all in jeans, T-shirts, chucks, you know, male and female. And I'm like, this is strange. So after service, he walks up to me and he's like, and he talks real fast. The guy's name is Brian Kennedy. If you Google him, he's a major music producer, Rihanna. Chris Brown. What's his name? Brian Kennedy. Brian Kennedy. I'll look it up after. Yep. Yeah. And he's like, he wasn't at the time and he comes in and he comes up to me after service and he talks real fast. He's slowed it down now. But he's like, that's what I was really great at. He's like, I really touched me. You know, I play keyboards and you know, if you ever need somebody in music, you know, and I'm just looking like, okay, so, you know, when someone's talking fast, you start talking fast with them. And so he leaves, then he comes back with a row full of young people and they're all young, they're talented, they're beautiful, they're gifted and I'm like, okay, something is happening here. And then that's kind of when the pivot changed because as I got to know them, many of them were talented, gifted and beautiful, but they were in bad situations. And even professionally, Brian was, I want to say this carefully because he was working for a producer who they were, music, they were very hot at the time. I mean, by name some of the songs that they did, you would know them. The deal was the deal that they were putting before him was pretty oppressive. He was better than that deal. And so he took them the Rascal's Chicken and Waffles. Let me know if I'm going too long. Just like kick me is up. No, I think this is interesting. Okay. So I take him, I like these like backstories because it makes people, it makes, I think it kind of like paints the proper picture. Like versus little snippets and people don't understand. This is true. Yeah. So I take my Rascal's Chicken and Waffles and I'm like, let me see the deal and show me a deal. And I said, Brian, it's not, it's not worth you. You know, and I told him my reasoning why and he had to make a decision. Now for some, it looked like the deal of a lifetime. You get to work with these producers. They're going to let you produce, you know, they've got all these hits. I'm like, Brian, you can do something on your own and avoid. And this is before the 360 deals, all this stuff that the labels are doing. Now this is before that. And so he did, he took my advice. He got out of that situation and then he, uh, Rihanna D'Usterbia, he produced that. You know, Chris Brown forever, he produced that. His career takes off. He, he was writing for Faith Hill, um, the Rascal Flats. I mean, Natasha Beding, I mean, just, just name it. He's, and he's just blowing up. And um, and there's, so there were a lot of stories like that. And because these people had influence, they were bringing people to the church. The church took off and the fastest growing demographic at that time was young Hollywood. But the reason why I bring it up, particularly as it relates to them being in bad situations, something about this other girl named Natasha and Natasha was gorgeous. I mean, just a beautiful girl, but our self-esteem was like in the tank. And I'm like, Natasha, you're, you're gorgeous. You're bright, you know? And so I got like, I got a little pissed at the industry, to be honest with you, because I'm like, here are the young people that are, they're moving from all around the world to come here because of talented. And they were just abusers in the space, you know, and they were oppressing them and, you know, and making them feel less than who they are. And so my message began to be shaped by who was coming. And so God gave me language for young Hollywood. And I started talking to them and it would be their lifeblood. I talked about identity. I talked about, you know, value, worth, affirmation, you know, purpose. And, and it just, it just exploded. And so that's kind of the, you know, that's really how it happened. When have you seen Natasha? Natasha's doing great. Yeah. Okay. What are you doing now? She's an actor. She's an actor. She's doing great. And she's very successful. I know who she is, I guess. I wouldn't call her very successful, but you know what? She's she's she's she's successfully emotionally. Okay, good. But yeah, yeah, yeah. As a human being. Yeah. And she is doing, I mean, she's, she's doing well, but there are people in our church that are much more public than her. You know, a lot of people, you know, I did, there was a show, we sold a television show to ABC in 2019 based on my life. It was a sitcom, the studio ABC studio bought it. And sitcom, sitcom. That's hilarious. I love it. And sitcom based on me and Sarah and, and but the guy who brought the idea to me, his name is Leslie Oldham Jr. He's, you know, Emmy, Grammy, Emmy, no, Tony, Emmy. And he's got some stuff. I can't remember what. I think he's one of the guys on your book, right? Yeah. Tony and Grammy award winning actor and singer. He is. I had no idea he was sitting in my church. You know, he was there before, you know, anything, you know, and now he's doing movies and traveling. He was in Why is the Broadway Hamilton? Yeah, he did that. You know, he did Hamilton when all the way over. He's a musician. He just hosted. And it's like an actor or an amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, he's, but I had no idea he's sitting in my church the whole time while he's a quote unquote, nobody and being affirmed and, you know, and who he is. And so, you know, I'm not taking credit for his career. No, of course not. But you're saying. And so he comes to me and he's the one that opened the door to do this show that, you know, we did successfully sell the pilot to ABC and it was a put pilot. So, you know, the network spent, I can't tell you how much, but a lot of money to do this pilot. And we were littered. Our bags were packed in April of 2019 to go to the up front to sell this show. Yeah. At the very last minute, although the studio bought it and produced it. Network said we're not taking it to serious. Why? I don't know. We were all devastated. It was me, Leslie Kerry Washington was an executive producer on it. She was attached to it. She's got a deal at the studio. At ABC, I know. And yes, she was attached to it at the very last minute. Network said, no, we're not going to do it. It was I mean, if you Google it now, all the trades were like, this is going, this is happening. This is a show to look for and all this sort of stuff. But it was all God's design. One, COVID was not going to the door. None of us knew it. Right. So God only knows if we would have got stuck in development hell or whatever. It just, you just never know everything for a reason. But was it was it already kind of canceled before it was started, before COVID started in 2019? Correct. So even before it was like it was already. You have no idea why they decided. They thought. They were spending that kind of money and having her attached. They didn't think that it tested. Well, I have, you know, I don't testing is tricky because you got to know your audience to test. You can't just put a show out there. You know, it's almost like my church is very unique. My church may not do well, honestly, in the Bible bell, you know, because I'm just different. I'm built differently. My language is different. So if you're going into the Bible belt to and I'm not saying that's what that's what they did. They did, though. Yeah. Testing is like, it's no, it's you got to anyway. But why don't you take it? Not like that. You need like career strategy advice from me right now, but I should give it to you after. But why don't you take it somewhere else? Like Amazon, Netflix, do it yourself, pay for it yourself and then sell it. Like we talked about it and we're always open to it. I think some of the networks that we were involved with, there was a little bit of, you know, executives go from company to company. Yeah. And so sometimes when so the person who bought our show at ABC by the time the show was it was time for network to make the decision. She was gone. She was over to another company. So sometimes that that could have killed the deal to be honest with you. They leave and everything's nice and nice on paper, but, you know, I didn't buy that show. I'm not as invested in it. But that happens all the time, actually. But where did she go? Can she take the show with her there? If they don't want to do it? Well, ABC owned, they own the rights. But can they, can they, can you get released from those rights and then she can buy it? I'm sure. I don't know where she is now. She might still be where she went, but I'm not sure. But and there are things, but, you know, another thing, honestly, is the show started to become less about what we did originally. So, you know, when the network gets involved, they have ultimate creative control. And so it kind of, they kind of soften some of the edges and, you know, but here's the thing. And I talk about it in balance. Like I, I needed that loss because I only knew Jenna only. Can I call you Jen? Is Jen okay? Okay. I only knew how to win. I had, you know, the church did amazing, you know, you know, two book deals, you know, television show. I had done some other work, some smarter things. Did you get the two book deals because of your popularity with the church? I think so. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. And this, by the way, the two other books, though, did you know TV and Sarah yet? This was not even yet. This is all before all of this. All of this is before. Okay. All of this. This is what I find. I didn't know this. Okay. Go on. So I only knew how to win, you know, I'm being interviewed, going to places. I'm talking to people. The root, they made me the top 100 influencers in the space. I mean, it was just like, you know, it was happening. Things were going really good. So that was going on. I knew how to win, but I didn't know how to lose. And I realized that sometimes for the sake of development, it's better to lose than to win. Because during that time before, so there was a transaction, a financial transaction that I was really excited about, an acquisition. And that deal fell apart. I found out that, you know, people say it's too good to be true. In this case, it was. And I lost a lot of money, earnest upfront money. And then, you know, to quite frankly, my legal fees to make them go away and cry uncle. So I was out of a lot of money. The opportunity was going out of money. This deal, you know, which is again, my bags are packed. I'm going to New York, baby. We're getting ready to this upfronts. We'll say, you know, you know, literally the week we were leaving, Network says no. The community in Denver that, you know, I took over, that was my father-in-law's church, that was 2018. I took that over because the former leader had some missteps and they were out of a leader. So I stepped in trying to be a good son-in-law. Boy, how have you been married to Sarah for? It'll be eight years this year. Eight years. Okay. But the show was in 2019. Show was in 2019. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So you only lost that show like a year or two years ago. Oh, yeah. Oh, it was fresh. Yes. But I needed to, I needed, so the Denver organization, not going the way I planned, you know, the acquisition falling apart cost me a lot of money and the deal goes away. The show that I just knew was it, you know, goes away. That was a lot of loss in one period of time. And I started struggling like, man, do I still have it? You know, am I still that guy? You know, and, um, but I needed to, I needed to know that there's a difference between being, there's a difference between losing and being a loser. And it taught me that. And I just, I just think that there's more value, honestly, sometimes in losing than winning. And I know that that's not a sexy thing to say, but it's true. Like I, to get up again, to trust again, to believe again, you know, I think, you know, I think that you should never waste a perfectly good failure. You know, people look at failure and they're like, man, I'll never try again. You know, I'm, you know, I'm going to go a different route. I'm never going to take a risk again. And that's a waste of a failure. I think if you do an autopsy on failure and you get in there and you start moving the spleens around in different things, you'll see things. There's a treasure there that will set you up for the next thing that you're trying to do. So I needed that loss to be honest with you. And, and, and I've won in other ways since then, and I'm going to win again. And the main thing is I'm never going to stop taking risks because, you know, when you start talking about scaling, I know this is a, you know, kind of a business podcast as well and scaling, obviously we all want to scale. You can never scale if you don't stretch, if you don't put yourself out there. Absolutely, Cheryl. So anyway, it was tough, but I'm glad it happened actually. It's hard that it, it's hard that it happened. And you could say now, well, I'm glad it happened because you got this and that. I'm all about finding sustainable ways to optimize performance, the kind of work that actually moves the needle on how you feel and function. And that's why I really need to tell you about Prolon's five day program. 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And right now, Prolon is offering 30% off site-wide, plus a $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their five-day program, go to prolonlife.com slash Jennifer Cohen and use Jennifer Cohen to claim your discount and bonus. That's prolonlife.com slash Jennifer Cohen and use code Jennifer Cohen. What I'd like to ask you more about is you're talking about resilience and falling and then getting back up again. So when this happens to people, do you kind of give people who follow you? What would you say the first couple steps are for doing that, for kind of getting yourself back up and to not quitting? Because actually what you said, I say a lot, is like you can, being a loser and losing are very, very different. What actually makes you a winner is getting right back up again and keep on moving forward. So what would you say? How would you tell people in your congregation that they can do that and get out of their own way to succeed? The first thing I do is give them permission to say, ouch. Like, I'm not that guy that says, man up dog. You know, that's not me at all. It hurt. You know, I was battling like some dark moments like, hey, have I lost my thing? Is my season pass? You know, it was a tough time and I had to be honest with myself that I have been bruised because if you don't do that, you're going to walk around bruised. You're going to walk around perhaps even bitter. You're going to walk around with no faith. You know, you just kind of, if you don't acknowledge the fact that it hurt, there's no possibility to get that wound healed and you're going to be a victim forever until you say ouch. So the first thing that I would do is say, hey, acknowledge the fact that it hurt. You're disappointed. You're mad at life. You're mad at God. You're mad at whoever's on the other side of it. Just get it out. It's okay to not be okay. That'd be the first step. Then assess it. You know, okay, so is there a lesson in here? I think with every loss there's a lesson. So what am I supposed to learn? Like, and really, you know, and you hear that all the time, you know, the last but no, really do it like there's something I know it hurt. And maybe it hurts to look at it. So that's why you got to grieve it for a minute. That's fine. Grieving is fine. It's part of the process. But then really get in there with an open mind, get ego out of the way. You know, stop pointing fingers. Don't blame anybody. What can I learn from this mistake? Study it. Do an autopsy on that, that, that, that loss, that failure, whatever. Look at it and you're going to find something in it. There's an insight there. There's something in that thing. See, it's not all dead. You know, there's some alive in there. So when you did, when that show kind of took a nosedive and the and the Denver thing kind of happened and you lost money, what, when you didn't think you didn't know what was going to be the next opportunity, what has happened to you since then that's been a really good opportunity that you never even saw happen. Oh, goodness. That came from those fail. Like if those things happen, you wouldn't have been able to do X, Y, Z. What was that? At first, I was a shift in my mind a lot of times. So here's the thing. How many people that aren't fundamentally in the entertainment industry sell a television show to one of the major, one of the biggest studios? It's Disney, ABC. First of all, who does that? So I was over here crying and looking at my wounds about it not going to series. And we sold a show to ABC. If I didn't do anything else in life, take the, you know, six billion people on the planet, how many of them have sold a show about their life, mind you, to ABC studios? Like that can't be taken away from very few, very few. So I carry Washington attached with Kerry Washington, freaking Kerry Washington. Right. You know, now we're friends and family. You know what I mean? It's like, how does that even happen? So, so it shifted my perspective. Tare, you look at this wrong. Yeah, it didn't go there, but dude, you played in the game, boy. You know, you didn't go to USC cinema. You didn't, you don't know anything about that. Well, you know a little bit, but you know, that's not your space. You don't sell shows. You're not a showrunner. What are you talking about? Right. Right. Right. So it shifted my perspective and it created a resilience in me. And now I'm a beast and I'm a beast not because I have all these accolades and I've got things that I'm proud of and I'll share that with you, but, but not because of that. I'm a beast because no matter what comes my way, I don't give a flip. I'm going to over flip. Come on. I'm going to overcome it. You know, I'm going to figure out, I want to find the treasure in that trial. You know, I'm going to tell me the treasure. What have you found? Well, so one perspective. I, there's, there's a powerful thing about knowing that no matter whatever comes your way, you're going to survive it. That first of all, that's gold in and of itself. Like this, this, this I can't lose, you know, or even if I lose, I, I'm never a loser. So that was big. But then this book, like honestly, like this book, Balance that I wrote, that's a whole other subject. It's great, but the process, like I almost, I tell people this, I mean, very, very vulnerable with you. I tell people this, I almost died writing this book. And you're like, what do you mean? My mom heard me say that once, you know, like publicly and she called me. What do you mean? You're on my diet. My mom, she like, oh no. But what I mean by it is that this book was supposed to come out in October of 2020 and, you know, it doesn't come out to, you know, when it comes out. We all know when it comes out. Right. And, and it kept getting pushed back. I pushed it back several times. I got halfway through writing it and I stopped and started over. I'm not sure if you, I think you've written a book or whatever, but like. I've written a few books. Yeah. So, you know, like halfway, you're like, praise God. I just finished my book. My new book is coming out in December. First of all, I find the process be so hard. People don't understand. It's the most exhausting, stressful experience. It seems like very nice and la-de-da. Terrible. Oh, it's the hardest thing. So I found it hard. I mean. And I, and I do too. This was extra hard. This was like, so I get halfway through it. And then, you know, my agent reads it and she's like, Toray, this is not your best. And she was right. And she's major. I mean, Jan Miller, she does everybody. Yeah. So, so she does. So you got to like, if Jan tells you that this is not good enough, you got to, so I start over from scratch. Now, just imagine getting halfway through a book with the publisher deadline looming and starting from scratch and you're pushing it back. So, but I did it. And, but during the process, man, I had some dark moments where I felt like, man, you're not good enough. You again, that, that voice, I call it night, you know, where that voice comes in. You're not good enough. You don't have it. What are you doing? You're a loser. You are. I mean, loud. And it's like, and I remember this moment. I write, I'm only laughing because it's like very, I totally understand what you're talking about. It's the worst. So I'm in my hotel room. I always take, you know, take, you know, several weeks away, right? I'm in my hotel room and I have this onslaught of thoughts that you're a loser. You can't do this. Look at you. You're an embarrassment. You're a shamer. You got this deal and you can't deliver. And it was just, and, you know, I don't think it's uncommon to have to overcome negative thoughts, but this was different. This was like, I was being oppressed by these thoughts and I'm by myself and I'm in this hotel room and I'm panicking. I can't sleep. It's going crazy. And there was a moment that where I realized if I didn't fight back, whatever this onslaught was would have wiped me out. I mean, like if I would have given into that, I understand how people, you know, because you always say, yeah, I never killed myself. Let me tell you something. That gave me just a little bit of a taste of what sustained negative thinking will do if you don't fight back. Right. And I knew that if I didn't fight these thoughts, my life was getting ready to change, not for the better forever. And so something in me just said, hell no. You know, and it was just a fortitude. Like it just, I just said, no. And and out of that moment, man, my creativity opened up. That's how the character night even appears in the book because I had to fight off night to write this thing. And so so all of that overcoming, you know, these these setbacks, these losses develop something in me that I think is going to help a lot of people. And I'm very proud of it. Yeah. I mean, you let's talk with your book first. Like what we might as well. It's been like five hours, but like, it's all good. But you know, because it's called balance. So what, how would you define what's your definition of balance? Because you've had to figure it out through this whole process, right? I've had to. And like you said, the process of the writing the book has been was very hard because you're doing a lot of other things also on top of it. You must, it's exhausting. So in all of this, how do you define balance? So I used to define balance the way everybody else does. How do I, I've got all these responsibilities. How do I effectively manage these responsibilities and divide myself up so that I can successfully be successful in all these things I'm responsible for? I used to feel that way. I realized that's not what balance is. First of all, it's impossible. I can't go, I can't give Sarah 10% of me and my kids another 10% in my business. Another percent in the church and investors. I can't do that. So for me, balance is not dividing yourself up in response to things that you're responsible for. It's becoming all of yourself, becoming your whole self and then giving your best self to things in sequence. And so I think that balance is really about wholeness. I don't think it's a discipline. We've enough books about work, like work, life balance. They're effective, but, but that's not where it's at because listen, I've, I tried it. I tried it, Jen. I tried, okay, on Friday, I'm going to take my son Isaiah out, you know, Thursday is going to be date night. Yeah, I'm going to spend time with my little girl on this day. And you know what I did? Because I wasn't balanced. I gave them a crappy version of me. So I did spend the time, you know, I can check off the time, but what did I give them? I didn't give them my best. I gave them a formula. It's not a formula. It balances about being balanced. It's, it's a journey to becoming your best self through disciplines and steps that I talk about so that you can do all things well. It, you can't, you can do all things well. You just can't do all things well at the same time. I totally agree with you. I totally agree with you. It's not about like, well, okay, I'm going to spend 50% of my time at work and the other 50% I'm going to do at home. It's, I've never heard anyone describe it like that, but I think that is such a much more of a, actually a more realistic way of looking at it. Right. Because I don't think anyone truthfully, like you can't balance things like a, like a seesaw, you know, 20% goes to my kids, 10% goes to my husband away. So that's a really good, that's a very good explanation. What, and I, you talked about this in the book, how do you give us some indications of when someone is out of balance? Oh yeah. There's a few. There's several that can be a ton. For me, stagnation is a sign that I'm imbalanced. I think that when we are balanced, when we're aligned, when we are working the disciplines and we're in our flow, there's no such thing as stagnation. You know, you're innovative, you're creative, you know, we're creative beings. We're supposed to always have something to give. Stagnation is a sign. I think that weariness is a sign. And that's the difference between being tired and weary. Weary. I describe weariness as the gradual gravitational pull down to the tarmac of disaster, you know, like just know the disaster is on its way. If you respond to your weariness, a jealousy and envy, to be honest with you. You know, when you're balanced, you have such an affirmation and personal affirmation, and you're so connected with victory and winning that any time you see success, you feel connected to it. You're not jealous of it. You just see somebody winning. You're like, yes, what we do, baby. You give a high five. And so jealousy and envy is part of it. Declining thought life. You know, if all of a sudden you always go to the lowest possible interpretation of a comment, of a conversation, of someone's action. You don't know why they did that, you know, but what did you mean when you said that, you know, your thought life declines? So there's several and you just have to perceive them and not tolerate them. Listen, when I'm off, I gotta go get balanced because I'm not going to be a great husband, not going to be a great parent, not going to be a great leader. You know, I'm not going to be a strategic business person. And so I just, I won't tolerate it. So I'm looking for signs that show me you're out of balance. You need to do something about it. So how do people get balanced? Like, what's the first step? Like, let's say I say, okay, I'm static. You could be stagnating at your career. You could be stagnant because you're just not like feeling productive. The weariness is an interesting one because it's like you feel yourself. You can, it's kind of like what you're, I think that you're saying it's like you feel yourself declining a little bit, right? Like you're not like, you're not like yourself. Yes. So give us some, how do you become, how do you start the process of being balanced? Love it. The first step is no step at all, actually. The first step is to stop. That's why people, it's the funniest thing in the world. But people are like, yeah, I just try to get balanced in my life. But what are they doing? They're moving. You know, I need balance, but, you know, but like you telling me you need balance while you got a phone in your hand, you know, you're tweeting over here, you're texting, you're driving to your next meeting. Of course you don't have balance. So the first step is to stop. And I've learned that first of all, it takes, people think it takes more faith to start than stop. I disagree. I think it takes more faith to actually stop, to come to a halt than it does to go forward. You know, I, you know, I think, you know, there's this biblical concept called Sabbath, you know, that is pretty, I think it's pretty universal. I'm Jewish. Jewish. You know exactly. Sabbath. You're saying it like I don't know. Right. I'm teaching you right here. You're like, oh, no, exactly. I was in the cover of the Jewish Journal. Were you? Yes, I was. No way. Yes. I was in the Jewish Journal years ago. Oh, you were? Yeah, I used to be on the board. I grabbed one on the bottom of this. Just the, no, not drawer right there. Tell me, I want to know. Yeah, I used to be on the board of an organization called the American Friends of Magin DeVito Don. It's the Ambulance Service in Israel. Really? Yes. I sat on the board for that, the LA chapter. And, and so, you know, so I'm very, I love Israel. I love Jewish people. I love everybody. Well, I like to hear that because that's really, this was on, this was like a couple months ago. Oh, come on. Can I tell you something? What's the name of this? For those of, okay, I'm only, I'm only showing this to him because people laugh and walk, but I will say that got so much more traction than Forbes, than Wow. all these other big, biggies because I don't know. I think that like there is something to be say about like being on the cover of like the cover. That's like a big deal. Major, the Jewish Journal, you kidding me? Right. Yeah, that's, that's heavy. That's right. If Jerry's sign, it's good enough for Jerry's sign. Right. Right. So thank you, David, Suisa, who's the editor in chief. I love it. Yeah. Yeah, but it's like, so the first step is to stop. And I love that, that word Sabbath because that Hebrew word doesn't mean to rest, even though rest is true, it means to stop. It literally means to cease, you know, and no one wants to do that. No one, it's almost like our world is so noisy right now. No easy is normal. Well, it's also all about distraction, distraction, right? If you stop and you don't have a distraction, then you really have to start focusing on what's the noise. Right. Yeah. Which is a lot of times we people do not want to have that type of like stillness and quiet because then they have to look inward and be like, oh my God, this isn't good and this isn't good and that's wrong and right, whatever. Yeah. So if you keep yourself busy or distracted, then it's much easier in like short term gratification. Oh yeah. Right. I know all about that. I went through a divorce in 2012 and it was my first time being alone, you know, in 17 years and... Were you married for 17? I was married for 17, I got married pretty young. I was married for 17 years. This is a wonderful person, just not for me. Right, right, right. And I got it. And so I was single now, right? And I don't know anything about that. I'm single, I'm a pastor, you know, I'm like... Are you allowed to date? I guess technically you are, right? You were obviously, if I can hear you again. Like we started this, I'm a grown. I'm a grown-ass man. I'm a grown-ass. Right, right. But, you know, as priests I can't go, I got it. Okay, okay. But a reverend can go out with people? Yeah, I think so. I think it's, I mean, again, it depends on your denomination or all that kind of stuff. It varies. But what I needed to do after 17 years of marriage is chill. Like, Tore, chill out. You don't even know what date, what are you doing? Do you have 40 years? What are you talking about? You're 30, 30, 40 years old. Right. Like, what are you trying to do here? And so, you know, I told myself that I was going to like, you know, not date or whatever. And somebody came along and we started starting a date. How did you guys meet then? Tinder? Are you guys allowed to be on Tinder? That's hilarious. I'm sure there's some pastors on Tinder. Were you on Tinder? I wasn't on Tinder. Bubble? No. Match? No, no, no, no. I didn't see the related ones. Because well, then I would have had to acknowledge that I was actually looking. Yeah, that's true. Right. Christian Ming-Ga. Now, I would even, let me tell you something, I would not do that. Because I love Christian, but Christian's is. I'm great. I think I was a fan. No. Give me, give me somebody. Women's dating. Right. No, I'm not doing the Christian thing. But I am, so I started, I had, we had a professional relationship and she. Why did you meet her? Was she, was she a pastor then? No, no, not at all. She a fashionista. She was in fitness. She was in fitness and. She was in fitness? Like what was she doing in fitness? I didn't know her. What was she doing? I went out and told her your name. So you might know her, but. But I don't know who it was. Oh, I'm talking with Sarah. Oh, no, no. I'm not that Sarah. Oh, no. Oh, no. We're talking about when you need to be alone. Oh, you're not asking me. Oh, yeah. Okay. No, that's serious. So yet, so you're like having to be alone and then someone sets you up with this girl. Well, she, we had a, we had a professional relationship. Was she your trainer? Yes, you're so good. Okay. I'm like, I'm going to do. Well, who is she? Yeah, right. She was my trainer. Were at a gym or like at a private gym? She would come to come train me at my place. So, and then she just, she steps to me one day. Like she, and it was all the time. Let me tell you what's funny about it. Like she, she was such a Mac and she's a great person, but she was such a Mac because, you know, we're having lunch one day and it was just like, you know, we're just having lunch, you know, you're cool. I'm cool. You know, you're training me. And then she like lunch is over and she's like, so when are we going to stop playing this game? And I'm like, playing a game. Like I'm not playing a game. Like we're just, she's like, come on, you know, you're interested in me. You know, and I'm like, okay, you know, because I was so, I was so vulnerable. And granted, she's gorgeous. And of course, you're not hiring a guy trainer. You're hiring a hot girl. Are you not? Yeah. Okay. I will do that. Okay. There you go. Okay. There it is right there. But that wasn't what she was really good at what she did. Yeah. You know, I'm sure. Right. I'm sure. Great. This is amazing. Okay. So then you guys started to date then after she confronted you. She did. And we started to date, which was so stupid. It just because- I think she's not your trainer anymore. No, she's not. That we ended that. Sure. But I think the issue is I needed, I needed time to myself, but I was, I wasn't ready for alone. I wasn't ready for what I might find in the- It's scary. In the silence. And so that, it didn't go well. You know, and finally I said, look, why are we pretending? This is not right. And I broke it off. And then- How long were you dating for? A few months. Yeah, it wasn't very, I guess a few months could be considered a long time. But a few months- Did you find a new trainer? I did find a new trainer. I did. And I just, yeah, actually no. I stopped training and I started just doing what she taught me. Oh. Yeah. And I- I stayed for that way. Yeah, I think so. I was too vulnerable. I was open. I'd never been, you know, by myself. Right. Alone. You know, since college. And, and I think what's, what's funny is guys sometimes are blinded from the fact that people might want to have a relationship with you. I was so naive. Like I was like, I thought that people were friends. I have one lady tell me, how real can we be on this podcast? Very real. I mean, how real? I have one lady tell me. And she was actually, this is bad. This is so bad. The badder the better. The better the better. She basically told me, hey, I can sleep with you. And, and it won't be anything. Like I'll even come to your church to sit in the pews and it won't be anything. And she was like, like, and she meant it. Like I will, and I'm like, oh, it's real out here. Like- Yeah, oh, you can realize it? No, I didn't know. I was in a bubble. Oh my gosh. Oh my God. First of all, can I tell you something? It's why the girls are worse than guys. I learned. I freaking learned. It was like- Did you really not know this? I didn't know. No, because I've been married for 17 years. And, and how many of those years? 12 of those years, I was a, you know, person of faith. So I was walking this really, you know, pretty straight path and I was faithful to my wife and that kind of stuff. So I didn't, I didn't really, I was shielded. I was shielded. So probably being married to her was probably a blessing in disguise because it shielded me. Well, but I would imagine if you're getting to be very popular in that space and you're on, on like a stage and you would have a lot of groupie like girls who would go there or guys also, maybe who just had the hots for you. Yeah, but I- It's not like you're like a dog. It's not like you're like a hundred, you know, obese, old man, you know, like- Yeah, I think, I think I was, I think I was distracted by my work and, and I had to be distracted by my work because my marriage wasn't great. Yeah. You know, so I was really lost and folks and working in there. And one thing I wasn't going to do is violate the integrity of why somebody's coming to our church. So, you know, I, yeah, I could maybe feel the energy of some people there that are, you know, you know, kind of checking, but I'm like, you can feel it where you want to. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna play into it. You're not going to bring it. You're not going into that. No, that's, that's a whole another thing. I'm, I'm, I'm afraid of God about stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're, I get that for sure. Yeah. Let me share my daily routine game changer with you. It's the momentous three. I've been using their protein, their creatine and omega three combo for months now and the results are undeniable. These nutrients are key for long-term health and performance, but hard to get enough of through diet alone. The CREA pure creatine boosts both physical and your mental performance. The grass fed weight tastes great with no weird aftertaste and the omega three is a must for recovery. Since adding these, my energy, my recovery and my overall well-being has really improved. So if you want better performance, this is the way to go. Visit livemomentous.com and use my code gen for 35% off your first subscription. Trust me, you'll be happy you did. So how long were you single before then you kind of met Sarah or just like, you know, how long did you stay kind of by yourself after that debacle with the trainer? A little over a year. Oh, wow. And you didn't date anybody for a year? No. After the trainer, there were a couple of other people that were short-lived, again, still battling with this not wanting to be by myself, lonely, very short-lived. And then I got to a place where I'm like, you know what, man, if you know it's right, why are you entertaining it? And I got to this place where I said, you know what, I'm not going to date anybody until someone shows up that I believe has the capacity, the potential to be my wife, you know, because I want to be married again, you know, marriage is great if you're with the right person. So I stopped and I stopped dating and I was by myself and my book was, my first book was coming out, so I had a good distraction. And I get a call from one of my friends, his name is Derek, who works for TDJakes. And he's like, hey, Tarey, you know, I've got somebody in town that I want you to meet. She's got a book coming out. And I just think you should meet her. It's Bishop Jake's daughter. Now, I love my father-in-law. I think he is brilliant. Like he's brilliant. He's a blessed man and all that kind of stuff. But when I consider my father-in-law, when I consider my father-in-law and I think about his daughter, all I can do is see him with a dress on. Right. And I don't want to date someone who looks like my father-in-law with a dress on. He's a big burly, you know what I mean? Yeah. That's, I mean, and that's with all the respect. No, he's like, he's a big man. I understand what you're saying. So I wasn't expecting for Sarah to walk to the door. We met at the peninsula in Beverly Hills for lunch. So I'm sitting down, or for breakfast, so I'm sitting down and she walks in and I'm like, what? She's got all like jeans. She's got ripped jeans on. She's got boots, you know, up to, you know, and she's like, and she's bouncing around and stuff like that. And, and I'm like, hi. Yeah, I'm so confused. Yeah, it was weird. And so we had a phenomenal conversation, a wonderful conversation about life. Our views were very similar about purpose and about what it means to be called now with the world needs. She wasn't a minister at all. What was she doing? She was an author. She was a blogger and an author. For what, on what topic? Her first book was called Lost and Found. So she was kind of telling her story, getting pregnant at 13 years old and having a baby at 14 while being in this high profile family. So she was inspirational, kind of a women's magnet or blogged it well. Was she ready? Was she well known in that already or not yet? She was known, but not, well, like in my world, she wasn't known at all. No, no, no. But like it was her blog, very popular. Her blog was popular for sure. So if she had a book deal, she must have had some popularity around. Popularity, plus she's Bishop Jake's daughter. Right, I'm going to say. How long has he been around, by the way? Oh God, 20, he's had that church in Dallas for 20 years. He's probably been popular for 25 years, like wildly popular for 20 years for sure. Right. So she comes from the, obviously, being his daughter, then she's like well known in that, in that space. Exactly. Yeah. That's true. Yeah, being there. She's young, but yes, to your point. Yeah. So how old is she at this point? She's 25. For this point, okay. Yeah. And so we meet, we have a great conversation. There was definitely chemistry, but not romantic chemistry. I wasn't looking at her like that because remember my mentality is I'm not touching anybody unless they have wife potential. And to be honest, she's younger than me. And so when I had, and I did have a little list to be honest with you about what I wanted to look like, she wasn't in the age bracket to be honest with you. So there were just things. How old is she now? How old is she? She's 30, she'll be 34 in July. So yeah, you're three. We got a 15 and a half year age difference. So she, so we have a great talk, great breakfast. I told her, I said, you know what, I want you to come and speak at our church. I think my people will love you because you're not churchy. You know, you got on jeans. Like, you know, my people, you're young, you kind of get it. You know, your messaging is good. I want you to come and speak at my church on Mother's Day. Unbeknownst to me that she didn't speak. She wasn't a speaker. She didn't, she had never, she had done some talks, but she had never done like a church message at all ever. I had no idea. And so here's the crazy thing about that. I didn't see her that way then. I saw her, I felt like I met her and I felt like, I felt like I needed to protect her because I knew what it was like in the church world to be kind of like me in that you're not super religious and you're popular and you have this charisma and you draw people. And sometimes the church world gets up tight, you know, and you're in Hollywood and they just assume that you are whatever they think about us in Hollywood. It's just, it gets weird. And I felt like, man, this girl, she's going to need some protection. And I didn't know, like Bishop Jakes, I knew who he was, but I didn't follow him, to be honest with you, because he's brilliant and I was missing out by not following him. But his style is a little different from mine. He's more, you know, big. Yes, he's gonna, and his dominating. Yes. And so I didn't, I knew who he was. I respect him. How can you not? He's in the faith world. He's massive. So with Sarah, I just, I didn't, I didn't, it was almost like my eyes were veiled from seeing her in that way. Yeah. And I did feel like you're probably going to need some mentorship because I didn't even think, who am I? You know, your dad's Bishop Jakes, but I knew that Bishop Jakes was, he's in a different, it's a different type of thing that he does. He's more in the church world. And I saw Sarah as having more of a pop culture type of grace. Similar to mine. So you saw that in her. Oh, for sure. And she didn't see that. For sure. Mm-mm. No. And so you're the one who brought her into this space. Absolutely. So, so fast forward, you know, we exchanged numbers. She tweeted out, she kind of flirted with me in a tweet. She tweeted out, met with Thuray Roberts. He's brilliant. I'm like, careful, don't use those words. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And then I went to her father's conference in Orlando, Florida. We caught up, we were texting each other. And then she approached me and said, I'm coming to LA in two weeks. Well, didn't she invite you to the conference? Because you weren't following. No, the Derek guy, the guy who. Oh, Derek invited you. Okay, okay. And so we get there. And so Sarah, we miraculously end up sitting next to each other on the last day of conference. This is, this is really crazy. And, and there was a closing prayer that Bishop Jakes said, you want to do a closing prayer, grab the hand of the person that's next to you. So I, you know, I just, I take her hand and it was crazy. I felt like this is going to sound weird, but we've been talking about intuition. I felt like she was my wife. I felt, I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to articulate that now, but what I felt was a familiarity just at the touch. And I'm like, what is this? So the prayer is over. She turns to me and she says, Thuray, I'm coming to LA in two weeks, and you are going to take me to dinner. And I'm like, okay. Okay. And, and the rest was his dinner was we shut dinner down, but. Where'd you go for dinner? Where'd you take her? We went to, we remember the Capitol Grill used to be open right there at the Beverly Center. That's closed now. Oh yeah, my God. Which, and I'm hurt because that was my, my propose there, first date was there. Really? Yeah. I used to like that place too. Yeah, it was great. So, so we went to the Capitol Grill and, and we talked all night. We both, we both had been divorced and our perspective on marriage, what marriage should be, why we were in those marriages. So, you know, for the time being and what the decisions, the way we thought and what we learned, it was like talking to myself. It was crazy. Really? Shut the Capitol Grill down. And, and we knew pretty quickly that we were each other's person. But as far as speaking and stuff like that, Sarah wasn't doing it. You know, her coming to one and then she started, then I started asking her to pray after the service. So she would do the prayer and then she started preaching there. So literally one became, even though her father has this major mega church, one became the platform that sprung her out into, you know, and she would tell you this, not just me. No, no, no. She would, you know. That's amazing. I guess, hold on. No. Sorry. I thought I was going to sneeze. Sorry. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. Allergy. Sorry. So that was basically, so then when, when she first spoke, was she awkward? Was it good? Was it? I think it was good. She was nervous, but she always has been a woman of substance. You know, I think that she has grown in skill, in comfortability, in communication. She's more knowledgeable. So she's got more to pull from and she's a beast. If you ever listen to her, that woman, she's my favorite speaker. She's my favorite preacher of all times. You know, I mean, even her dad has made 11, but she's got, she's like, this is going to sound funny. She's like a little bit of me and a little bit of her and a little bit of him and all of herself. And she is fierce. I love to hear her speak. No, she's very good. I've heard, I mean, I, when she was on the podcast, I told you when, like a year ago, I listened to a bunch of her stuff and she's excellent. Yes, that's amazing. Like, where does it come from? Like, how do you guys even put these things together over and over? And because you got to do it every week, right? Every week. Someone asked me, it's funny, it's become so natural that I forgot that it's actually phenomenon that you can come up with life changing, literally life changing content every single week. I think for me, it comes from a couple of things. One, things that I'm learning recently, I think that in order to be a good communicator and a good minister or life coach or whatever you want to call yourself, you're change people's lives, you have to be, you have to be growing spiritually yourself. And so, you know, you know, there are disciplines that I work every day to keep me aligned, to keep me really connected to my spirituality. One, two, you got to love people, you know? So when I'm like, even when I talk to people or before I get up on the stage to speak, I'm turned around and I'm looking at the audience because I want to see them. I want to see you want to feel you. I want to, I want to look in your eyes. You know, I want to, I love you. I have to love you in order to be effective. So I need to pause and look at you. And a lot of times it's weird. I can, you know, it's kind of sound strange, but I can kind of feel people. I can feel what they're going through and what they need. Really? Yeah, it's really, really, oh, that's why I can't write my, I have points, but I can't write my sermon out for word, for word because I respond to news in the room and I respond to how they respond. And so if I say something that really resonates or maybe it intrigues a person, but, you know, they need more, then I'll work three or four analogies until I feel like the room got it and I can move on. And you'll think about them on the fly? Oh yeah, absolutely. 50, at least percent of my message is extemporaneous. Like it's like right there. You know, I'll have a theme of somewhere that I want us to go, but it all depends on who's in the room. We used to do multiple services and each service would be different, although the theme was the same because of whose energy is in the room. And you would do one sermon every Sunday. How many people would show up? So our theater is supposed to hold about 800 people, but we learned how to put chairs down and get the lobby going. So max, it'll max out about 1200. And we were doing three services a Sunday before COVID-19 hit. And so- Three on Sunday. Three on Sunday. It's like eight o'clock, 10 o'clock. Yeah, back then it was nine o'clock because it's LA, and nobody coming at eight o'clock. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. By yourself, frickin' will get on. Exactly. Good morning everyone, all four of you. But at 9 a.m., 11 a.m., 1 p.m., and then we would do a midweek service. By the way, how much is a membership? There's no membership. It's free. Yeah. Okay, so how do you guys make money as a church then? It's a nonprofit, you said. It's a nonprofit, yeah, through donations. And so- All donation-based. All donation-based. You guys can't put around like a bucket to people? We used to, before COVID-19, we used to, but yeah, we would pass the bucket around and yeah, there's no, you know, we just trust that, hey, you see the value of this. Right. Not just for your life, but for what we're doing in the community, you know, practical stuff. Because yeah, spiritual stuff is majorly important. We totally get that. But people got practical needs. There's some people that you're never gonna, well, I won't tell you, who knows. But you never made believe the way I believe, but you still need to eat. You still need, you know, job support. Right. You still need all these other things. So, and people respond to that. People want to give to organizations that are making a difference. And so- Do most people give when the bucket goes by? It's hard to tell. So, I get a report. I can't see who's giving what. Right. It's kind of, you know- You can't anyway. How do you know if it's going around? Well, you don't have to. You can give anonymously, but most people want the tax break. Oh, so does it come around with a piece of paper that says here's, you can tell it? Yeah, you can do that. Or now it's all automated. So, you can text a give and you've got a profile set up. So, you can text the number and the amount that you want to give and it goes to that. And so, on our back end, we have, you know, computers that track who gives what. So, at the end of the year, they get their giving statement and they can deduct those gifts from their tax returns. Oh, but you're saying- But, okay, so, but in person, when the bucket goes by, there's no technology. Is there nothing? No, there's so if- And we, I don't even know. We're starting back. I don't even know if they're going to do buckets. We're probably still going to be digital. And people give stocks and Bitcoin and all that kind of stuff. But then on digital, how do they do it though? If you're watching, how do they do it? So, it's a text. So, start off with the text. That's what the text, okay. So, you send them a text first. With a form. And so, that captures their data, you know, their name and address. So, we can send out the mailing statement, email address. And so, now every time they text, the system already knows. It's them. It's them. So, it tallies up their giving. So, interesting. Yeah, it's like, in all this, none of this stuff I knew about when I started, I just said, look, I want to help people, you know, here it is, go for it. How much people normally give? What's like the going rate? Well, it depends on how much they make. So, some people, and I think, I don't, I think in, In person first. Let's go first and versus online. So, there are principles and I'm pretty sure, I think this is the same in synagogues. But there's a principle called the tithe, which is, means a tenth. And so, some people who really, really are followers and believe in the church and what we're doing, give a tenth of their increase. Like, I literally, a tenth percent of everything I make, I give to our church, you know, and that's where I start. And then beyond that, I help all kind of other places. I just- So, this is where it's different. So, in the, so we, when you're at a synagogue, typically you have to pay a membership. Okay. And then also you give donations based on where you are. Okay. In terms of your like economic place in life. Okay. And there are people, it's like the 80, 20 world, you know, like as in life, right? You have a very small percentage of people who give like the majority of it. Yeah. But, you know, because it was done, how you guys do it with the bucket. I, and I'm only saying, because I remember when I was like, Joel Olson, the bucket was coming by and I was like, what the hell is this bucket? What's the bucket? Right. Yeah. I thought that was all in movies. Right. And then it realized it actually happened. Some people are taking out money and throwing it in the bucket. Yeah. I didn't know if it was the same because if they're coming, weekly, it's different if you just come once in a while. But what if also they're coming weekly, you're giving cash or how much do you normally get in person? Oh, it depends. It depends. From like a dollar to. Yeah. People give a dollar, you know, 20, it depends on where they are now. And our church is a pretty young church. And so, young people, a lot of times have young money, you know, and so, I think that we do well and, you know, stay afloat because there are a lot of young people who do so. But then you're right. It is the 80-20 rule. There's some people that do very well. And some of them aren't even local. They'll be either overseas or in another state and they, you know, they're multimillionaires. And so, their tide is significant. Well, yeah. So, what I think is doing digital is probably way better. I mean, you're making more money digitally. I wouldn't imagine. The only problem with that is that. You're reaching more people. Yeah. The only problem with that is that people who are only connected digitally don't give as much because I don't want to suspect it. But if the bucket comes, no bucket can come around. Right. And you. You can't see you. Yeah. Yeah. So. And I think a lot of people, when they see the bucket, they see other people doing it and they feel guilty if they don't. It's like peer pressure in a way. Exactly. Because I didn't know, and I'm like, oh, I guess people are beside me. They're giving. I better give my money too. You know, like I, because I didn't, you don't know, you know, you want to feel inclusive. Yeah. But I was always curious about that because also when people do donation, you make, you tend to make more money because it's like the, psychologically, when people feel like, well, I'm not paying for a membership. They, I get it. It's interesting. Because some of the people are feel more, they feel more generous to be giving money because it's, it's that way versus like a finite amount of, finite amount of money. So true. And then from, you know, from a business perspective, you know, you would almost want to, to be able to quantify if we've got a thousand members and they're giving a thousand dollars, you know, a month, then you've got a million dollar budget. So that, that obviously would feel more safe, but it doesn't work that way. We, we have zero, zero commitment. And so it's all, and you have to trust that. You have to trust for sure. But you have a huge, I mean, congregation. You guys are probably raking it in. I mean, let's be honest. Not really. But I'll tell you what, when we did, well, COVID helped us because one thing, you're a nonprofit. So literally you're not supposed to be profitable. Isn't that interesting? I know. So most nonprofits can make a lot of money though. Oh, for sure. Because people are generous and they support, but you're, I'm not saying you're supposed to spend it all, but if you're like a nonprofit and you're just growing and growing and growing and there's no outgo outflow into the community and into the world, that's a little tricky. So, but COVID helped us in that because we couldn't use the facility, our overhead dropped significantly. Right. Our numbers, our donations were, they were pretty flat. I think we jumped, actually no, we jumped 7%. No, 7% last year, the first year we were pretty flat, but because the overhead was down, it was kind of awesome because we were able to do more. Right. And went at a time when the world needed more. So instead of putting money into the building and all the things that go into managing the building, we were doing all kind of radical altruistic things, which I think brought the church even to a greater place of prominence. I'm just curious, how many people do what you do in this kind of unconventional way? Is there other people, do you have real competition in this way? That's funny. So I understand what you mean by competition. It would be... You know what I mean. Yeah. I told you, but I just, I want to preface that with in that faith world, even though the faith world can be more competitive than corporate America. Yeah. And let's not even go there. But in that world, you're supposed to not be competing because everybody is a servant of God. But... Both that being said. That being said. So we're just, so that we're clear. Yeah. Keeping it at 100. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there are, thank God, I think that there are leaders who are being more open, open, being more authentic, being more relevant. And... They're, I'm sorry. There's a guy that I'm thinking of, I think he had like a sermon or something in Beverly Hills at the hotel. I think it was... Judah, Judah Smith. Is that his name? Judah. Yeah. Yeah. This, well, he was doing something that I think it wasn't, it was one of those hotels on Walsher. And then he's at the Saban, Judah Smith. Is that his name? Yeah. Judah. He's a... He's a young guy too, yeah? Yeah. Judah's about my age, maybe a couple years younger. Oh, okay. Are you sure it's the same guy? I thought this guy was, unless I'm just like so old now, that even, I thought he, so he was like the kind of concern to be like the rock star young guy. Could be Judah. And he was bringing all these entertainment people and I was invited to go a few times. Yeah. Yeah, that's Judah. Yeah, Judah, Jason Kennedy was there. Yeah. In the case of Judah. Yeah, that's Judah. Yes. Okay. What is he, how is he different than you? First of all, I love Judah. I think Judah is an incredible human being. I love his broad perspective in bringing people together in the faith world. I think that I'm probably a little more raw than Judah. Oh, okay. Because he is, his father was a pastor and they had a massive church in Seattle, Washington. I didn't know that. Yeah, okay. And I love him. I think that he is dynamic, you know, greatly dynamic. And he has, and there are some similarities in fact, because he does draw a lot of entertainment people. Yeah. But I think, and I don't want to say but, I'll just say, and he's raw, but I'm pretty darling raw. Right, right, right, right. Like, I am, so I'm probably, you know, maybe that's, maybe that's, maybe that's why, maybe that is not a good thing. I don't know. I think he's more, maybe more polished where I'm a little more, I'm polished, but I also will get to a place that I will get greedy to get you. Yeah. If I've got to like, get down there and just tell it like it is, is, is, is, is, talk about how I was promiscuous or egocentric. Matthew's really off limits, so to speak. I mean, some things are, but not really. If I got to tell you, if I got to show you my scars to really connect with you, I'm going to do it. And he probably is too in his own way. But I think we have a lot of similarities for sure. I want to take a quick break from this episode to thank our sponsor, Therasage. Their tri-light panel has become my favorite biohacking thing for healing my body. It's a portable red light panel that I simply cannot live without. I literally bring it with me everywhere I go. And I personally use their red light therapy to help reduce inflammation in places in my body where honestly, I have pain. You can use it on a sore back, stomach cramps, shoulder, ankle. Red light therapy is my go-to. Plus, it also has amazing anti-aging benefits, including reducing signs of fine lines and wrinkles on your face, which I also use it for. I personally use Therasage tri-light everywhere and all the time. It's small, it's affordable, it's portable, and it's really effective. Head over to Therasage.com right now and use code B-BOLD for 15% off. This code will work site-wide. Again, head over to Therasage-T-H-E-R-A-S-A-G-E.com and use code B-BOLD for 15% off any of their products. So what else, I know that you obviously are your businessman. Yeah. And you do all this other, what else, how do you divide, not in a balanced, divide your time, but what else are you, what are you up to? You have the, you all obviously have this church, you have this book. What else do you do business-wise? Do you have other entities that you do or? I do. We've got a multimedia company whose, and our thrust right now is the music, but what we did in the production space through caring everything was done through our entertainment company. So we're always looking for, especially because we attract so many young people, we're always looking for shows and concepts that we can use and promote and push. So some of the doors that have opened up to me are in entertainment, and so we're always looking for. So that's one. I also have a Torrey Enterprises is all things book and speaking. So I travel and speak to leadership events, to some business events, and I've got that going too. We also have the tour, the Woman Evolved tour that's- Right. That's also under the- Yeah, that's a separate entity. Oh, okay, Woman Evolved is a separate entity. Yeah. And so are you traveling a lot now with speaking or Sarah speaking a lot? Or are you guys tag team, do you guys go together? It depends. I mean, we both have our separate things. There's some things that make sense for us to do together. Yeah, what do you guys do together? Where is it? Like under the church, you guys are both under the same YouTube channel? Is it- Yeah, that's actually what's great. That was actually my personal YouTube channel that I built. So even if you go to it now, it's youtube.com. That's you, right. Yeah, and it all just dovetailed in together, but she has her own YouTube channel as well. And it's called Woman Evolved. It's called Sarah Jakes Roberts. Oh, okay, now Woman Evolved. And Woman Evolved comes through there. But Woman Evolved is an entity, and under that entity, what she's a CEO, I'm- You know, I was the CEO, I'm like, I can't do it all. So we hired a COO, and now we're just partners in the entity. Oh, wow. But that has so many tentacles. You know, it's touring, it's speaking, it's obviously merchandising. It's the store, it's clothing, it's podcasts. It's your, is that yours or hers? That's hers. Some of those entities we share in, but that's kind of- But you guys are also your own personalities, right? So like you have your own entity, which is the speaking, the tours, the books. I also have a leadership organization, a leadership development organization. So that's part of the speaking, but it's also separately. It's a separate entity, separately branded, which is because I'm big on, I love leadership. And I just love talking about it. I love entrepreneurship. I love empowering people, particularly people who just then grow up around information that helps them in the area of entrepreneurship. So I've got that stream as well. But we believe, we believe in multiple streams. Like if you're sitting around waiting on, you know- Right. Forget it. Yeah. You got to make your own opportunities. Absolutely. And so this, I know you're going to split your answers going to be, but I'm going to ask anyway, do you guys ever get competitive with each other because you guys are in the same lane? Well, that's a great question. I think if we do, it is not spoken. I think that I won't call it competitive because we compliment each other so well. And like because we're really trying to help people and we only win like helping people to really be effective at helping people. It requires one another support. I mean, we'll be in there and there's 5,000 people in a room. We ain't got time to be competing, babe. I need you to win. I need you to win this moment and we'll high five later. But so it's not competition, but it is. I think I'm a better speaker. I'm a better marketer because of her. I think that, I think we sharpen each other. So right now I'm doing this and she's seeing me at my best because I wrote this book. I'm doing these interviews with great outlets like this one. And so she's seeing me at the top of my game. I'm going to travel. I'm going to New York and a couple of duper est there. So I think that it feeds and she had her turn with Woman Evolved. She's here. So I think it feeds. It's not competition because competition is I'm competing against you and some might say that that's healthy, but that can become a little carnal. It can become a little egoistic. I know what you're saying. It's not in a negative way. It's more of a healthy competition. Hey, you killed that. Like, wow, I'm going to kill my next thing. Right. I think it's more like that. Do you guys, and you guys help each other out? Oh yeah. Everything, we laugh about this, but it's true. When you see one of us, you see both of us. Like literally I can feel her in my head right now saying you better. That's the thing. You know what I mean? Like, you know, and so, I mean, she recorded some stuff yesterday and I wasn't there, but when you see one, you see both because we're, I mean, we're two peas in a pod, but we're so for each other. Like that's my best friend in the whole world. Like people talk about this concept of ball and chain. Like who are you married to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A woman ain't no ball and chain, man. She's, I would, I'd spend every day with, I don't, I never get tired of her. I never get tired. It's a great place to be. Yeah. That's a great place. And then is your business, so like your business or business, is there any affiliation with Bishop Jake said? That's just all just in my head. So there's one, so here's what happened. So I had one church and that was, I built that, you know, it's been what it's been for years. It was a quote unquote, mega church when I met Sarah. In fact, that's why Derek wanted to introduce Sarah to me to put her book because here's this mega church in LA. Now, of course, Bishop is would be a giga. He should be like a mega, mega church. Did she promote her book in his church too, by the way? I'm sure. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And that was, yeah, he did the forward and everything on her first book. But it was established. So, so then Sarah and I get married, you know, and now Sarah is a part of my church, you know, so she's, it's me and her now, you know, so now instead of one, it's two. Right. And we were just rocking that out and that was great. But the church in Denver, which is one of my father-in-law's churches, the pastor there had a moral failure and they had to ask him to leave the church. So now the church is headless. It has no, no overseer, you know, Bishop is the big dog, but no person on the ground to run that church. So being a good son-in-law, I said, you know what, you know, we can do it. I'm not going to let, you know, anything that you're doing fall to the ground. So I'm going to do both. I'm not going to give up LA. I'll move to Denver because it's going to need oversight, got to build team leadership, you know, lick the wounds, you know, hit things up. So I took over that church. Now it was going to be a little odd to say I'm the pastor of one church or one LA and the pastor of Potter's house LA, they've been rocking with me since 2004. Yeah. So I can't, so how can I, from a branding perspective, present something that says it's still both? And so what we did was, since that church was called the Potter's house of Denver, which was owned and run, you know, headed up by Bishop, I said, we're going to make LA a Potter's house church, but we're still going to be LA. We're going to call it the Potter's house at one LA, you know, so it was, you know, at the time I thought it was a good idea because it makes them feel like, hey, we're just merging into, you know, a bigger situation with him. And I just wanted them to feel like I wasn't leaving them. The only problem is, and I realize this now, that one had a lot of equity. I didn't realize that. Like when my father, I'm like, yeah, talk show he did, and he had to come out here to do the talk show and everybody on set, you know, the producers, you know, down to the, you know, craft service people, and they're like, yeah, no, I go to one church. And so he was like, well, this church has a massive brand, you know, and we did. So in hindsight, and so people still, even to this day, you know, still, even when it was the Potter's house at one LA, we still call it one church. That's how strong the brand was, and it was unique for all those years. So, but I changed it. And I think it was a mistake to be honest with you. It wasn't a mistake in my intention to unify and to let my LA people know that I'm still there. But I think, I think if I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't have taken another entity, but that's all the story. But anyway, so when the pandemic hit, everybody went online. Everybody went online. We lived in Denver for a year. I moved back because I just couldn't, my family thrived in LA. Thank God we didn't get rid of our house in Calabasas. Our family thrived. And I moved back, started doing Denver remotely. And then when pandemic, and when I said remotely, streaming from LA in Denver, and then when the pandemic hit, everybody was virtual. So I took Denver and of course LA Virtual, kept our feeding center in Denver open, in our local outreach to the community open. But I closed the church and made it digital only, and I decided to close it personally, or permanently, with the exception of online and local outreach so that I can focus here. When I did that, I brought the name back. And so now it's one, but to honor the Potter's house, there's a little tagline that says, A Potter's House Church. So I reclaimed one. And one is true to me. It's true to me. So anyway. No, I like that. I feel like, how long have I been talking to you for? This is good. We can do this forever. I mean, I feel like I didn't ask you any real of the questions I had written here. But getting back to your book, I think I asked you three questions about it. I asked you about balance, and I asked you about how to know if you're in balance. How to get in balance. Did we talk about how to get in balance a few steps? Yeah, we talked about the step of stopping, quieting the noise, and then kind of going into the tangent. Which are the first two steps? The power of no, we didn't really speak about. We gotta talk about that. Yeah, let's talk about the power of no. And then we can, I can let you out of here. Okay. Actually, you can come back again. Cool. But like, people are going to be like, what is going on? This is not Joe Rogan with five hours. Yeah, so please, you talk very much about this in the book, about 90% of your time you should say no to things, not the opposite around, the power of no. What is, what are you, why, why and well, why? Yeah, that's probably, that could be the most important chapter in the book, the power of no. And the reason why no is important is because yes is expensive. When you say yes to something, and it's easy to do because, let's talk about it. Somebody presents something to you, particularly if it's say, a friend, a mentor, somebody you want to work with, you know what I mean? And they present something to you. The easiest or an opportunity, the easiest thing to do is to say yes, because why? This instant gratification with yes. There was no conflict, you're liked, you feel good, there's instant gratification. Okay, great. Right. But the only thing is it feels good in that moment. But what happens later when something that you really want to do, something that you've been working your butt off for, you've been preparing for, you've been praying about, you got all your friends in, that comes up. Now, you've realized the value of the yes that you gave, because now you have to say no to something that matters, and then you get busy. And so, you know, I am dramatic when I say that you ought to have the 90, 10 no to yes rule. It does seem dramatic, right? What, 90%? Nine out of 10 things, things ought to be saying no to? Absolutely. Now, here's the caveat. If you are, you have a good structure, good system around you, good staff or whatever, then maybe it's more like 50%, because your staff is screening some of the requests that come your way. So, maybe you're at 50, 50, but the average person who doesn't, who don't have gatekeepers, don't have anybody around you, you should be saying no, because you want to have a healthy amount of yeses available for the just because. When I say yes, I'm committing my time, my energy, my person, and my availability. I'm a limited resource. I can't do that. I'm slattered you're here now. Yeah. Well, it's true. Now, I'm honored. This is great. So, no is everything, because yes is expensive. And you know what else I like about no? No qualifies your relationships, because some people, the relationship only works, because you always say yes. You should just try it. Just like, let me just throw a no in here and see if they walk away. And you'd be surprised. Some people, if you're offended because I have a boundary, and I'm trying to protect myself, and I'm trying to better myself, and I'm trying to level up. And in order to do so, I have to tell you no this one time. If you're offended by that, you're not my friend. My no just qualified the relationship. Yeah. So, I love no knowing.