Married a Gay Man… And We’re Completely Monogamous ft I Married a Gay Man

Hello and welcome back to the Friday feels episode of the you up podcast. I'm Jordanne Abraham and I am Jared freed. It is so good to be back here with you, Jordan. But it's especially good and we are virtual today because we have two very special guests. They are the co-hosts of the I married a gay man podcast and they are, I mean, that explains it all. And to tell you the truth, Samantha, when Greenstone and Jacob Hoff, hello, coming to the show. Thanks for having us. Of course. So I mean, I think I was scrolling Instagram where I where I live these days. And I saw, I think it was like your people article come up, basically like kind of giving a general sense of like that you guys were an inter orientation couple and that you just had a baby and that you were married. And I sent it to Jared and I was like, we need to have these people on. Like, I need to hear more about how this happened, how this came to be, like, like this, how this whole dynamic works. So I'm so excited to have you guys here like and just to get into your whole story. Well, thank you. We're excited to share it. Yeah. Can you guys just kind of tell us the deal here? Because like, you know, we we have so many questions. We were even talking before. I'm like, I'm like, I don't even know where to start. Like, yeah, can you tell your story for our audience? Sure. So the main thing is we're a pretty classic couple in the traditional sense, except for the fact that I identify as a gay man. And that is a phenomenon that I think we all know exists in relationships. And I feel like everybody knows a couple that has this dynamic that's kind of unspoken. And we're trying to make people a little more open about that. And I think it alleviates a lot of the pressure for the queer person and the straight person in the relationship. And it just it just clears the clouds in your mind and removes all doubt. And like, I know that everyone's always like, OK, well, they must have an open relationship. I think as we package this up by saying traditional, we are both we're like, we're completely monogamous and we have that old fashioned love story kind of. I'm sorry, I'm hearing an echo from Jacob's room. I'm sorry to interrupt it. I'm wondering, Jacob, can you turn your volume down just a little? Sure. This is a traditional old married couple as it gets. Yeah, exactly. Right. This this interaction. Close the door. This is my parents. You're a little too loud. Usually I'm the loud one. You're certainly the loud one if you can hear yourself through my phone. This is my parents. Oh, my God, I'm getting I'm getting triggered. We're used to being side by side on things. So the whole like her being in another space is like where we're really showing our old people cards here. So take a step back. How did you two meet? We met at an audition for Fiddler on the Roof. And so there's this theater in San Diego, the Welk Resort, and they have a theater on this resort, basically. And so it was the Monday after Thanksgiving. And there was this audition. I was living in LA at the time. I was like, I really do not want to drive down and deal with this audition right now, but something told me that I should go. So this place is one of those unique places where you audition, you do the call back and you basically get cast that night. It's very intense. It's like it's like a chorus line. Like, you know, God, I hope I get it. And they're like, get out of here. It's like very, very fast, which is really what's like Southern California theater is all about. It's like they they just it's pretty quick, but they like try to give you like the big New York experience, but you're just like, it's not that serious. But we show up to the audition. Both Jacob and I got callbacks. And then I like Jacob to take over this part because I like his talent. So I'm sitting and we're all like sitting there going over our parts and they call the women in for this role, Frumacera. And if you know Fiddler on the Roof, she is like this feature role that comes out in this nightmare sequence. And she's kind of like a hodgepodge of the Wicked Witch of the West meets a ghost from a Christmas Carol, like crazy off the wall thing. And so they bring like nine or ten girls into the room. And you can kind of hear the muffled piano like banging out the song as each girl goes to perform. And you can't really hear the singing. So everybody's in the lobby in the waiting room, like doing their nervous. So I'm out in audition energy and then like cutting through the walls. There's this. And I'm like, what the hell was that? Because this person who just let this out, how it doesn't give a fuck about anything, doesn't care what people think of her. Has the balls to do this in a place that where everybody's worried about being judged. And so I instantly became obsessed by this. And I'm like, I have to meet this person. And so they open the door when they're leaving and the girls are walking out. And I just instantly knew it was her. Like it just she was reeking of that capital. And I was like, I walked over to her and I was like, if they don't give you that part, they're crazy. And I was thinking the same thing. I was like, if they don't give me this part, they're crazy. And so he gave me the high five that I needed in that moment. And I'm like, well, thank you. But also I was like, I want to get out of here because, you know, you could like do the best job and know you're the best for the role, but it could all come down to like, oh, she's too short. We want this to be like the tallest creature ever. So I try not to get like too invested. So I was like, thank you so much. Left. We both ended up getting the job and rehearsals started about a month later. And we both were being housed on the resort because we lived in LA. Yeah. And it basically began an 18 month friendship where we hung out, especially during that contract every single day. And it was till four o'clock in the morning. And then I'd go home, go to bed, wake up and she'd be like, let's go on a hike in the next morning. And I was like, oh, my God, like it was just like we were inseparable. But it was platonic. And how long ago is this? This was in 2015. 16. Yeah, it didn't seem it was 2015, but then we started rehearsals, January 2016. Right. Yeah. And so she in that time knew I'm gay. She I went to her with, you know, guy troubles or anything like that. And to me, there was always something kind of there that was more. And I always felt like like Samantha, as I say, collects gays. Like she has more gay fans than Cher. And she has like, so I was always like, God, I want to be more than like one of her gays in her collection. And he always felt like more than one of my gays. Like I never, that was why it was so confusing, because I'm like, I have this feeling and this like, I just couldn't explain the magnetism that we had. And it felt like unlike anything I'd ever felt with any other human being in the world. Yeah. Did it feel like a sibling relationship or does it feel like a best friend? Like how would you describe it so? No, it feels like a soul mate. It feels like the person you're meant to grow old with and die with. Yeah. Like the best way I can describe it is the way you feel when you're watching like a rom-com or something and you see like the people meet for the first time and you're like, oh, I know that they're going to be the they're going to fall in love, you know. Right. And I guess my question of that is, so how did you so you become these fast friends and then you see that there's something more? It feels like a soul mate. Is there a when you bring in a boyfriend or a girlfriend or a boyfriend, I guess, Samantha, how you identify as a straight as straight? Yes. Right. Okay. So would you have boyfriends and Jacob, did you have boyfriends that you bring them in and just it would ruin the vibe? You know, we like really didn't hang out with like a third. That's the thing that that was so confusing is like we would like talk to each other about, you know, kind of like our little navigations of relationships in the world. But we never really had a significant other during that time. It was like, we didn't want anyone else to hang out with us when we were hanging out unless they were like a mutual best friend. Like and Samantha's my only real relationship in life. I had, you know, flings with guys, but I was very much on the down low publicly. I would tell my friends that I'm gay, but I was, you know, I grew up in a conservative Christian house and the gay thing was was a taboo thing growing up. And so I was terrified to come out and through our relationship, Samantha actually helped me come out to my family, which was fantastic and it was amazing. But yeah, so at that time, it wasn't like we were living, you know, these other lives. We were, we were very close with each other. So then how does, how does like sex play into it? So we do have sex and we are, we are monogamous and that the reason that this is where people go, well, then why don't you identify as bisexual? That's like the biggest frustration people have with us or the biggest thing that they can't get over. And basically the reason is that my identity has always been wrapped up in being gay. And that's how I feel when I go out into the world and not attracted to women and I'm never going to be. And that's a gay person. Bisexual, you know, says that you are attracted to both because Samantha is my soulmate. And because we are just connected in that way, it doesn't change my identity. And that's what we're trying to say for people's mental health is that you can identify a certain way and you can have a partner. And you can have a soulmate be a completely different thing. And that connection can live in its own world and you still get to keep who you are. Right. I mean, it's interesting that you mentioned in the beginning that we all kind of know a couple that is living this way, the way you're positioning it. And it is interesting because I never thought of it that way. Like, I guess, you know, that's the couple you may talk about when you go home and you go, do you think what's going on? Does she know? Right. And is this an agreement? You know, we all and if they said this is kind of what we worked out, you know, the friends who don't really deserve that information really, they probably all understand. They would all go, okay. Yeah. It is interesting that you guys are like just basically like, well, why not? Why isn't this a lifestyle that people can can lead? Right. If people are all the argument is always love is love. And I feel like the queer community likes to use that as an argument for anything. But this is an example of that we feel in its like most authentic, purist form where the love just transcended the label. And for some reason, it like stops people in their tracks when it really should just be the epitome of all the work and the, you know, the example of the catchphrase proof is in the pudding. Yeah. The other thing is that there's so many societal pressures. I think a lot on straight men to put on this macho front and for them to admit, you know, especially one that's a closeted homosexual and they're, they're putting on this front of I'm heterosexual if I'm if they're in a relationship like this, typically. And so it's very hard for them to get to the nerve and say I'm gay because that that means admitting something that maybe society says, is it masculine or isn't traditional? And that's hard. And for the woman as well, or whatever dynamic, you know, it can go it can go either way. The woman could be the gay person in the relationship, but it means kind of swallowing a pill that is tough to swallow. Right. And I guess you could say the same thing, you know, the guy who says he's straight, but is in a man. You could be like, this is how I identify in the same way that you just said, the opposite could be true too. Totally. I identify as a straight man and this marriage is working for me in this way. The words don't matter. Don't need to connect to the actions that you believe they should connect to. Yeah. Red. Exactly. It's like people don't question a straight man's loyalty to his straight wife because, you know, it's a straight relationship. But sometimes people are just like confused, like, well, you're gay, so you have to be like cheating on her or there's no way this is going to work. Right. And I'm like, a straight man doesn't all of a sudden start finding the rest of the women in the world unattractive. It's your sexuality doesn't tie into your ability to be loyal and what your boundaries and your moral code are. Yeah. Right. No matter what you are, you choose your partner every morning when you wake up, no matter your dynamic. Right. So I'm saying, but even so, even though you don't identify as bisexual and you do identify as gay, you're sexually attracted to Samantha, but not any other woman. Right. And yes, exactly. And I say it in the form that it's not that work in the stripper pole type of attraction. It's not that ass and titties and all that thing. It's a very, very deep thing. And I say the only way to really translate it is to say it's the way a 90 year old couple looks at each other. Once all the vanity and all the bullshit melts away and you're just these things. It's like that's the love. That's that's what I feel when I look at Samantha. But yet as the receiver of Jacob's gaze, like I have never felt more attractive or beautiful or cherished as a woman in my life. Then the way that I feel when I, Jacob, like compliments me or looks at me like it's just it's a feeling. Yeah, that's what we all want. A great story like Monsters Inc. stays with you forever. And Disney Plus is where you'll find your next great story from the return of the award winning hit series, Rivals. Welcome to the naughtiest show on television. To the unmissable crime drama, High Potential. Gotta dead body, gotta go. A lifetime of great stories awaits this spring on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hey guys, we're going to take a quick break from Samantha and Jacob to have an announcement. We have an announcement about the You Up With Benefits subscription. Go ahead, Jordana. Hey guys, do you love You Up? But you wish that Jared and I talked more about our lives and what goes on behind the scenes. Subscribe to You Up With Benefits. You'll get early access to episodes, ad-free listening and bonus subscriber only chats where we share even more about our lives with you. And soon, da-da-da, Jordana, big announcement. Soon you get video if you sign up on the Betcha site or via Spotify. And if you subscribe now, you can lock in the $39.99 yearly rate before it becomes $6.99 a month or $54.99 in June. So, you know, get your savings, get to it, get on it right now. And back to the show. So when does this start? When do you guys like kind of hatch this out? Whose idea was this? Right, right. Because this is so different than people know that you have to... This is actually creative because I would assume that this endeavor invites a different type of... Because you guys have a big following. Like we were looking... You have a following of people that... I knew a baby. Yeah, I knew a baby. I mean, we haven't even gotten to the baby. But I would assume, because I used to do these videos where I'd give pep talks to single people. I'd be like, listen, you could be in the worst relationship ever. And that would be a lot worse than being single. And I would describe the worst relationship ever. And it did very well. But it would do very well. There was a group of people that would like those videos that I would assume and tell me I'm wrong. That you get these people that are like, dating sucks so much. This is... You represent how horrible dating is. It doesn't sound like this was that. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't sound like you guys were like, fuck these apps, fuck these people. We're going to do this. It feels like this is a genuine connection between two people that feel loved. Yes. So do you have that portion of your fans, so to speak, that are there because of that? Oh, yeah. And there's a whole portion of women who are like, how do I find this? How do I find this? And we're like, no, you don't find this. Like this is a happy accident, really. This is faint. But we want to also say that we do exist. And as we share, we get people in our DMs who are like, oh my gosh, I feel so seen because I am also in this relationship or my parents were in this relationship. So we're visibility for a minute few. And we understand that it kind of looks like it's something that you, oh, like I would choose to be in this. But it wasn't two people who were like, this is the most convenient situation. In fact, we always say it's by all means inconvenient. And it really, the catalyst for us kind of becoming together was that after 18 months, I was back in San Diego doing a show for the summer. And I was playing harpo Marx in Animal Crackers. And harpo Marx is like a lot of physical comedy. So I was deep into the hot yoga, woo-woo experience that summer because I was trying to just be as limber as possible. And I was really just kind of in this place where either I was dehydrated or I was just very in tune with my breath work. And my friend had gone to a farmer's market and said, Sam, I just met the most incredible energy healer. You have to go and see her. So I'm like, okay, this girl's got a pep in her step now. And so I went to see this energy healer and I get there. And it's like in the back of this little shop in Little Italy, and I'm like, where am I? I walk in, I go into this back room with this lady and she's like, going in and out, there's customers walking in, just trying to sell them crystals as she's given me my reading. And she's like, so tell me about your life. Are you seeing anyone? And I'm like, no, but I have this incredibly weird, unexplainable connection with my best friend in the world. And she's like, stop right there. I sense that you guys share a spiritual and biblical cord. And I'm like, great, this is exactly what I needed to hear. And so I leave the store and I text Jacob and I'm like, you ever have any feelings for me than more than just a friend? Like I was like, just it was what I needed to hear to make that move. And I never would have made that move before. Like, never. I'm like, I will be courted. I'm not putting myself out there for a man. I was very much in kind of like, someone needs to convince me that it's a better situation to be with them than to be with myself. Yeah. And Jacob just kind of gave me that security. Like I knew that even if his answer was no, our friendship and our bond was strong enough that we would be able to laugh about it and just move on with our lives together. Okay. And what did he say to it? I remember I had just got done surfing because I was a surf instructor at the time and I come in the apartment and I get that text and I'm like, whoa, there's two feelings that happen. One is, of course, like this is everything I've ever wanted, even though I didn't acknowledge it. And the other feeling was terror that this was never going to work. Like, how am I going to be intimate with her? And this could fuck everything up that's going so great, like this friendship. But you know, then so I send her a text that says, what do you mean? Which was the stupidest thing. That's every guy writes that back. That's every guy we get on this show. Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean? What? Let me catch my, yeah. And then a minute later, I'm like, okay, that's a dumb answer. I need to say something better than that. And so I was like, of course, I feel more for you than a friend and I'm willing to try, basically. And something was like whispering in my head that like all this would be okay, similar to what Samantha said, like we have a good enough relationship that even if we try this and fail, we'll be able to laugh it off. They're like, remember that time we tried to hook up or something. It's almost easier considering you identifying as gay because then you're not like. It's not personal. Right. It would feel less personal. Right. It's insecurity. I can understand. Like telling a friend that's of the opposite sex that you're attracted to, I could see how this friendship could still work if this didn't work out. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I drove down to San Diego the next weekend and we hooked up for the first time and it was successful. It was remarkably easy. And I was just like, wow, this is all of that melted away instantly, like that fear. Now, I don't want to. One thing we're very clear about is we don't want to paint this picture that it's been perfect or that it's been easy this entire time because what I say is we went through about a six-month honeymoon period after that where we were just inseparable. Samantha moves in immediately and we are going through the honeymoon phase. And then it starts to take a turn where the insecurities start to come into our lives. And we start saying, how is this really going to work in the long term? I'd never seen myself being in a relationship with a woman. I'd never seen myself getting married, having a child. And I'd never heard of this type of relationship before. Right. And so, and then I had horrible communication at that. I mean, I had just terrible communication. I smoked pot all the time and I was just like in a days all the time and go, you know, what do you mean with my default? I was like, you're so perfect, but you're broken right here. How do we just, it's this screw. And on top of that, not coming out of the closet, this is something that is also not talked about being in the closet can manifest a lot of ugly feelings in a person. And for me, that was anger. And I was very angry. I mean, unreasonably angry. And even I look at pictures of myself in that time and I can see that anger on my, I can see it in me. And it was a weird thing that we eventually, now this is where it's crazy and some sort of fate was here for us because we went through years of just arguments and communication issues and good things too, but you know, always hitting these roadblocks. And eventually we said, we need to see a couples counselor. And so we get this random teledoc counselor and we get on the call with her and we start talking and we tell her our dynamic. And she goes, this is really interesting because I have to tell you I'm married to a woman, but I identify as a straight person. She's like, I've always been attracted to only men. I was with men and I've just found this woman and we are soulmates and she's my partner. And we all had this aha moment where it's like, this is a phenomenon. This happens and it's just not talked about, but it can work and people can find life in this. And so that really settled us in a different way to find another person that had this dynamic. So from the six months in, you have the honeymoon period and then at six months, you're dealing with a little bit of difficulty like, how do we play this for the future? From then until you meet with this therapist who's kind of speaking to what you guys are doing, how long is that? What's the time frame between that and how is the relationship? It's like three years. So years of what? As a couple? Yeah, as a couple. I mean, never going outside the relationship. We've never had a moment like that. We've never broken up. We've spent. Yeah, we've never been close to it. It's just been like, it was like years of us having an overall pretty amazing relationship and then hitting communication, explosive conversations that were when we would have communication and glossages. Right. Those things kick your ass. Like they take a week to recover from because you're just like, you go through adrenaline and you go through all these crazy things and we kept going. Why is this happening? Like we are so perfect to get her every other way except for this nonsense that keeps coming up. Right. And I mean, speaking to that therapist and what you were just saying about her, I feel like I've heard of this kind of this phenomenon a lot more maybe like in lesbian relationships where I think I remember this quote from like Portia de Rossi about Ellen where she was like, I was never like a lesbian until I met Ellen. Yeah. But I haven't really heard much of that kind of conversation from gay men and maybe I guess it could be like this stereotypical thing where men might be more of a stigma around it because there's this idea that men are maybe like inherently more sexual than women. Yes. And so it would be harder to do that than say for a woman. Does that do you feel like that rings true at all? Oh, totally. And society, I think, I mean, I'm not 100% sure, but I think society accepts lesbian behavior out of women in a different way. It's viewed as hot by straight men and it's, you know, oh, the girls are just messing around sort of thing. And if you're a gay dude, it's like, whoa, you know, it's like an ordeal. And we've gotten a lot better about that. But I mean, in the 20 years ago or something, it was a big deal. You look at the comedy films from that time and it's all just like, you're so gay, you know. Right. Well, like men feel threatened by straight men can sometimes feel threatened by having gay friendships because they're like, oh, is he hitting on me or does he think that I'm hitting on him? And it's like, no, it's not, you don't hit on, you don't find every person in the world attractive, you know, and it's not, it's not like that. It's, there's just so much stereotypical language that I think does get attributed to a gay man. Yeah, it's a, it's a rarer thing to hear about a man who had a phase in college in the way that women talk about it. Exactly. It's just not treated the same way. Right. What year was the therapist kind of breakthrough? I want to say the therapist was like 2018 or 19. Yeah. Do you think that putting this out on social media has made it maybe easier for you guys to like, because now it's like your business a little bit? Yeah. Like, do you think that there's like a little bit of like a timing thing where you're like, now that we're out there with this type of, because you don't, you could have this and not put it on social media. Like, there is. Which is what we've been doing for years. Yeah. Right. For years. And then, but then you do when you find that like, oh my god, the, the comings and goings of our lives is like interesting and thoughtful. And you're hearing from people, I find it interesting that you're hearing from the people that are like, my parents had this relationship. Yeah. Well, we first started before we even put it out online, we would like start telling our friends. And when we told our friends, we would find that some of our theater friends would be like, I'm in this type of relationship. Or they would be like, oh, well, my parents who are also in theater are in this relationship. And we're like, okay, maybe it's just like the closeness of theater that is giving us this kind of thing. And then one day, you know, like Jacob was making his top five lists. And then I was just like, you know, people on social media sometimes share about their lives. And I was like, maybe you should start doing some of that. I was like thinking like he was going to share a recipe or something. And he was like, I'm going to share about our relationship. And I'm like, okay, we really, this is not where I thought we would go. But like, if you are feeling that you're ready to tell this story, amazing. And we did. And people just were so curious about it. I think for me, walking into it, like, I got to take agency and control over that, does she know narrative? Like, yes, I know. And you're never going to be able to like walk down the street and be like, oh, poor Samantha, like, does she know her husband's gay? It just kind of empowered me to be able to be like, yes, like, and, and as people were asking questions, I felt like, okay, as we are sharing this, we are not only educating people and providing visibility, but we are kind of having our own conversations about our relationship with one another through this medium. And it's like, any confusion or reassurance or anything we had had, it's like, it's great to be able to tell our story and like answer these questions for everyone else and hear one another's answers to them over and over again, because it just like, I never get tired of hearing our love story. It's really unbelievable. And it's funny, like, hearing about it and talking to you guys about it, for me, two totally different things. Like, you hear about it and it's funny what things get attention for, and I'm sure you guys feel that like sometimes it's the wrong attention. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, that's why we try to do more conversations like this. We try our documentary or the book we're writing our ways to kind of get the story flushed out. And because it's, it's complicated and it's, it's a big thing. And when people see our one minute TikTok videos, a lot of people think it's, it's fake or they think we're putting this on and it's a, this is satire. And, you know, and also just the nature of social media, the way you have to package social media is so sensational and BS that, and we know how to do it and we do it for the sake of reaching more people. You know, like we start all our videos with like, I'm Samantha and I married a gay man, or I'm like, I'm gay and I married to a woman. And like, it's so cringy and annoying to do that every time. But like, the way that video will then perform is so much better than if we just did a regular old video of us talking. Right. And every single day we get a message, at least one, from someone being like, I'm in this relationship. And it's just like, had we had ourselves, when we were going through this tumultuous like communication confusion of feeling like we were freak shows for being in this type of relationship, we would have had a lot more peace. And I think it would have, we would have overcome our blockades earlier on. So the fact that we can make other people feel more normal and just, you know, probably feel more comfortable and the fact that, wow, I've just found like the right person in life is really rewarding. Jacob, you, you, I mean, you said that you hadn't come out to your family yet. What a roller coaster for them, if you think about it, like, Oh yeah. Like, hey, I'm gay and here's my wife. Like, it's like, that was something, you know, my, they, they, for, for that, they were so accepting and amazing about it that I am, it was awesome and made, made life so much smoother and easier. Also part of it is because they knew Samantha already for years and knew this, our relationship. I think it was probably more confusing for my dad. My dad is more that traditional conservative Christian guy. My mom's like, you know, super fun and, and, and he, and my dad is fun too, but just, you know, she's more like different fun, different, yeah, modern and everything. My dad, conservative fun. Yes, exactly. He was ultimately very accepting. And that's actually what we found and we're really happy about is that a lot of conservatives connect to our story. And we think that that's a huge thing that needs repair is the community, the gay community and that conservative community. There is so much friction there from years of fighting for equality for the, for even, I mean, we have countless friends that have so many problems with their family for not accepting them for being gay. I had a friend commit suicide over it when I was in my early twenties and that was devastating and, and probably was part of why it was harder for me to come out for more years, because I saw the backlash when he came out and then I mean days later, he was dead. So it was like, holy shit, like this could really go south if your family doesn't accept you. So that, that relationship, if that can get repaired, it would be so fantastic in the world because it's creating so many, so many problems for the queer people who feel rejected and for the families that feel they can't accept their own child over this. Yeah. I mean, well, I have a question on that note, though. Do you feel like there's any, and I don't think this is the message you're sending at all, but do you get people who kind of feel like you're basically saying to conservatives like, yeah, you can choose to be, you can just choose to be with a woman? Yeah. Oh yeah. Like why doesn't, why doesn't everyone just act like Jacob? Yeah. And we, we have people who say, oh, this is very dangerous for the conversion therapy mindset folk out there. And we are like, we know, no, like that's one thing that we are very adamant about is we do not believe that you can change your sexuality. That's what we're saying. Like just because Jacob's with me, he's still gay. Right. So we're saying the opposite. Right. And there's people who are fluid or there's people who are bisexual. There's, there's, I mean, the human sexuality is a very individual experience. And it's that there's no blanket statement for anybody. It's, it's, it's confusing. And, you know, and a lot of people get annoyed at having to hear of the different nuances to it, but that it's just the way it is. That makes a lot of sense. So now you guys have a baby together. Yes. Has it made it more difficult, less difficult? Because now you, you know, I don't know, how does that change the dynamic? It's probably pretty nice to raise a baby with your, with your absolute soulmate. Right. It's a little easier. I mean, let's fighting. A thousand percent. And I know that everyone feels this way about their own child. They're like, Oh my gosh, my child. I love my child. But we look at him and it's like, wow, like our love has not, not has this token and this like combo of the two of us and like to look at him and see what our love story was able to create. And just like the, the way his face lights up. I'm like, there's no doubt in my mind how much this was our destiny to be with one another because you can't, can't create a little being that just is like this, like ball of light. If it's not coming from some, you know, destiny or kismet place. From good. Yeah. It's been amazing. I mean, the, he is the best part of everything. I mean, it's just a beautiful experience and we have, we've grown so much stronger because of it. We have, we are lucky that we have such great communication now and we are able to navigate it. A lot of people were like, God, it's so hard. And, you know, there's obviously moments that are hard and overwhelming, but for us, it's been, I've been like, Oh, this is actually easier than I thought it would be because you don't understand the, the compelling love that drives you to do all the things to wake up in the middle of the night and to do all those clothes, laundry or dishes. Like there's so much love driving that forward that it makes doing them easier in my mind. And it's like, I can't help but love Jacob more than like every single day when I see him look at our son and like be the silly version of himself that he is with me, but like, also see my son responding to it and being like, our son responding to it and just being like, eating it up. I'm like, wow, if you think your dad's the greatest person in the world, like, like, you're, this is just another person who is just validating, you know, how wonderful Jacob is. Right. I would imagine the hard part is like the, the, the fan, you know, the family stuff. That's like where I kind of understand, like where I do understand the idea of like loving someone no matter what they are like, you know, mother to my child, father to my child, look at how they do this. This is an attraction that is supersedes looks like and, but that's not the stuff you think about in the initial thing. Like that's why the people coming to you that are like, dating sucks. This is what I want. Like they get it the least almost. Right. Completely. They're in that culture. There's a whole culture. Obviously sex has been sold to us in so many strange ways to, to get us some sort of, you know, gain off of it. And our society has bought into the apps and the, you know, the, the visual ephemeral stuff because it sells and it on the surface, it's very enticing to all of us. But, but the reality is the deep connection is there's nothing like that. And we would rather inspire people to just be like, wait a minute, I'm with someone for the wrong reasons versus, you know, and encourage them to find the person that makes them feel a certain way. Like that's what the focus should be on less about like, okay, is he rich? Can he share my rent with me? You know, is he handsome? And how does this person make you feel? Like, are you a better person? Do you light up? Like, what is your life and world feel like when you're in their orbit? That's how a fairy tale ends. This is great. I'm so happy we add you guys on. We want everyone to go check out the podcast. I married a gay man. Also go check out Samantha and Jacob on social media at Samantha, when Greenstone and then at Jacob M. Hoff. And do we want to do an email, Jordana? We'll do one quick email. One of our listeners wrote in. Yeah, let's do it. Let's get your take. Yeah. I will read the email. Go for it. Hey, J and J, a close friend, I'll call her A and her husband have asked me to be a sperm donor for them. They've been struggling with fertility and like the idea of using someone they know rather than a stranger. I've actually done this once before for another friend through a clinic and there's a child from that situation. The issue is that A and I have a long history. She had strong romantic feelings for me for years, from high school through college, and I never felt the same. We eventually stayed friends, but it was always complicated. She's now married and it's been years since any of that, but this request still feels really uncomfortable given our past. I said no, but she and some mutual friends think I'm being unreasonable since I've donated before and it shouldn't be different. A is especially upset. Now I'm stuck wondering, is my boundary fair here or am I overthinking the past? And do I need to explain more to her husband about why I said no, or is it better to just leave it alone and let things cool down? So, Samantha and Jacob, what do you guys think? I think you shouldn't have to beg someone to be your sperm donor. If you don't feel comfortable, like that seems very unhealthy. No is no. Yeah, I completely agree. That is, you know, you want willing sperm. Right. I mean, your explanation, talking about your child, like you guys, that answers the question for me when you guys are, this is the light that this love produced. Like, if that's what you guys see when you see your own kid, like what are these people going to say? Right. I think better to blindly get some, get some blind sperm. Right. Yes. And there's a lot out there willing to probably agree. I think these things are like, you know, sperm donation or egg donation or all that stuff, it has its own set of complicated emotions already inherent in it that to add in like a complicated either past or present romantic feeling that's not like fully fleshed or processed. Like I'm sure you guys, before you had your son were like, felt like you fully processed all of the things that like came up in your relationship. Yes. Make sure you were like 100% gung-ho. Yeah. Before we even were engaged or married, you know, was that way. And if I were the partner, I would look at the child. I mean, if you're already feeling uncomfortable about a past history, you're telling me that then you see like a little potential sliver of the sperm donor in your child, there's not, there's going to be like already kind of like a weird feeling about that, I would think. And you want to just like start parenthood like unconditionally loving your, that's parenthood is unconditional love for your child. Like it might add a condition. It's weird for this person asking for it to not find it weird. They know the same history that the person writing in knows. The person writing is like, they were in love with me for like years. And now they're coming to you because they what? Because they think you're hot? Like, like, they, like, that's crazy. Like, how do you not see the weirdness in this? I think we just said like that. If they were just like, you're hot, you know, I know we have a past, but like, I want my child to look like you. Can we just be honest and upfront that way? Maybe that makes him more savory. Right. I would agree. Yeah. I think if my, if I came, if Mike didn't have sperm, we're not able to create a baby. And then I was like, oh, I have this guy that I used to really like in high school. We should use his sperm. I think that would be a very weird conversation. No, weird. Absolutely. So we're all on the same page. I love it. Go find your come somewhere else. Listen, Samantha and Jacob, this is, this was a pleasure. This was so much fun. Such a pleasure for us. So much fun. Thanks for being so open and receptive to our story, letting us share. And yeah, this has been great. Of course. And thanks for letting us ask questions that like, you know, I'm sure a lot of people are curious about, but maybe feel weird about asking. I just wanted to add that if people want another example of this relationship, they should read Liza Minnelli's biography because she just talked about having multiple relationships like ours. We're always looking for other ways to expand on this idea. Well, listen, everyone go check out both Samantha and Jacob and check out their podcasts. All the links will be in the description of this episode. Jordana, we solved dating again. There we go. We did it. We'll be back next time. Amazing. Betches