IS THERE STILL A FUTURE IN DOOR-TO-DOOR SALES || MAX GANLEY || EPISODE 059

I grew up in a really unique situation. My dad's a big entrepreneur. Sold his first business at 38 for 100 million. He's gone on to do a lot of things. And so where I grew up, I've been surrounded by a lot of successful people. My dad said, hey, you have to go to school. He actually didn't go to college. He was homeless at 14. Didn't go to college, but he told me, hey, you have to go to college. And you have to stay in college and tell you make 100,000. Then I'll let you quit. Because I didn't get the chance to go to college. You've got to do it. I went to college and then I went and did door to door. And this was back in 1415 when solar was still very unknown. Or new, it was kind of newer, so to say, right? And just started killing it. My first year, I made 142,000. You started selling in the Scustle area was that your first rodeo and then you would end up branching out to other mock at this time. I went by. Yeah, so my first couple of years, I started just closing deals. Then naturally I had a lot of friends come and want to do it. Naturally, more people came. And so I was like, doing this a deck that I went from being a sales rep to a sales manager to the regional. And then in 2019, a few of us, we started our current company under energy. And it now and today's current state, we span across about 45 markets with over 1,500 sales reps, active and stuff. So it's been cool to kind of see the adaption. Sadly, people have looked at the solar industry as a cash grab. So they're in here just to go and make these big commissions versus what's best for the customer or their business. And those guys are short lived. I've seen that these guys that chase, well, I'm going to make more per deal. I never see them last longer than a year or two. They always try to, they're chasing all the time. Where exactly? I've set my career up where it's like, hey, I've been able to build a foundation and then build off that and that provides more consistency. So what we've provided is a platform to where you're still part of that whole ecosystem, but you're getting your selfishly best experience to where you're serving your client. So, and it also diversifies our business. We don't have any fixed overhead. We don't own trucks, warehouses, branches. We don't have all these big fixed expenses that can go take the company down when times get tough. The code to winning insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow, actually, we have an amazing guest. If you are interested and curious in learning about renewable energy, the solar, if you want to be able to jump in door to door, if you want to find a bit more about this specific industry, we have a man that's been in this industry for about 10 years in different markets and he's built one of the biggest solar companies as well, straight out of Mesa. And so, without further ado, I'm going to have Max Ghandley in the studio. Thank you, welcome boss. How you doing? Doing awesome. Thank you for having me. Awesome stuff. I appreciate that. I'm glad we got the morning schedule. I know it's very, very crazy. One of the things I learned and I've been taught as well is the fact that you can tell someone's success or someone's achievements and accomplishments about how quick they respond. If I text you, it doesn't even take more than two seconds to get a response back from you. So I appreciate that. But I learned from Patrick Bedevides, that from all the success capabilities learned about is because everything is so calculated and everything is like they appreciate time so much that they have to get over the tusk. And so, listen, I get over the thing on the next tusk. Next, that's not this thing of hanging on. So I really appreciate that a lot. It made it so smooth and amazing so I had to just mention that at the start. You're welcome. I try to do that a lot. So it's a super power. I love it. Are you born and raised in NACA? Born and raised here, yeah. I live my whole life in Arizona. Guess what though? You and I served on missions around the exact same time. I served 12, 14. No, same here. I got home November 2014. Yeah, I was, I think, May or so. That's like the same thing as well, 25 months because when we went on missions, we experienced, well, I think you just came slightly after the age change thing. Yeah, I was when I started, it was a month after that, they switched it all to that new age thing. So on my mission, there was people coming out that were like two years younger and I was like, what did you serve? I didn't see it. Edmonton, Canada. Oh, wow. Yeah, really cold, you know? So we would, you know, Dornock and up there is different when it was a, minus 20 to 30 Celsius. You still had to go out and what, there was a trick they taught us where we put our glove on and we'd have a golf ball to knock because we couldn't take our hands out of our gloves because it was so cold. So I was the secret. So yeah. Awesome. I want to just kind of dive into it real quick. You have experienced some 10 years in solar. Solar has been, it was the first time in my entire life that I had made a six figure. Like income as well, even though it was like in an area where six figures, not six, close to an African Bay area, one of the most expensive places to live in the United States. But you have 10 years experience in this industry. Can you run us through just a bit of your journey in solar? Yeah. So I grew up in a really unique situation. My dad's a big on-prenuer, sold his first business at 38 for 100 million has gone on to do a lot of things. And so where I grew up, I've been surrounded by a lot of successful people. And so obviously we just talked about when I missed. And so when I got home from my mission, I was kind of bred to go be an on-prenuer. My dad said, hey, you have to go to school. He actually didn't go to college. He was homeless at 14. Didn't go to college, but he told me, hey, you have to go to college. And you have to stay in college until you make 100,000, then I'll let you quit. Cause I didn't get the chance to go to college. You've got to do it. So I went to college and then I went and did door to door. And this was back in 1415 when solar was still very unknown or new, it was kind of newer, so to say, right? And just started killing it. My first year, I made 142,000. And that was back when commissions were 1500 to $2,000. So it was a very different time back then. It was like one product, one system kind of thing. So my dad's like, hey, you're allowed to quit. And what I found joy in door to door is, it wasn't my dad calling one of his business partners, saying, hey, can you give my son a job? Can you hook him up? But I found so much in door to door. I was like, I got to go prove what I'm worth. And so I loved that because it was like, okay, if I want to go make this or I want to go accomplish this, I can do it. It's not my dad or his business partners or my neighbor's giving a hand out. So I just started going out and doing it back then. We didn't have the training and the concepts that we had today. I was actually dropped off in Greyhawk up in North Scottsdale by a guy in an Alexis Carnie says, hey, good luck. Figure it out kind of thing. So just kind of started my journey that way. It was really unique. Awesome. Now that's fascinating. I mean, and you started, you started in selling in the Scottsdale area was that like your first rodeo and then did you end up like branching on to other mock at this time went by? Yeah, so my first couple of years, I was just, I started just closing deals. Then naturally I had a lot of friends come and want to do it. Naturally more people came. And so as I, you know, doing this a deck that I went from kind of being a sales rep to a sales manager to then a regional. And then in 2019, a few of us, we started our current company, Sundar Energy. And now in today's current state, we span across about 45 markets with over, you know, 1500 sales reps, active and stuff. So it's been cool to kind of see the adaption, but I'm really grateful. I rely, you know, smart people learn from their mistakes, brilliant learn from others. And I think for me, I've been really grateful that I have had phenomenal mentors in my life. I give them a lot of credit. It's helped me avoid a lot of mistakes that I've seen people endure, adore, make financially. You know, and so many other aspects. I've been able to just go to people that obviously are far smarter and successful at means, but hey, what should I do in this scenario? And it's helped me kind of stay on a path that's been very successful. I love that, love that so much. What was different back then? I know, obviously, when I did solar, there was a whole setter, closer, self-generator, in trying to find your way between then, build a team. So in 2015 or 2014, like around that time, what would you say was slightly different compared to like how things are right now, structure-wise? You didn't really have all that. It was just kind of go eat what you kill. It was all self-generated call. You not close your own doors, just kind of go out and make it happen. I will say the market penetration was way less, not as many people were in the solar game then, so to say. You know, you didn't have the tech we had today. We didn't have the 10 different products, batteries weren't even a thing. So it was very just, you know, simplified back then. But at the same time, you didn't have that. But the industry evolved quickly. The first couple of years, all of a sudden, you saw a company start to kind of create similar to what Vivint and some of the big door-door companies have, kind of the culture, the competitions, the all the systems you need to adapt and stuff, because solar started to just take off kind of that. One thing I did notice, well, when we were there the first two years, we were relatively very, very good. The third year, that's when they implemented the name 3.0. And so it hit us real hard, because I remember getting some guys that were there. The commissions went from absolute luxury, because I mean, one of my closest, like one of my biggest deals a year before was a good, like over 20,000 was like a nation woman by Carpetino, literally like, same street as like the Apple headquarters. She just, like I want like, she had like 54 panels, even nothing more than that, filled up the entire roof. So like stuff like that, which was a self-genre, was like something so rewarding. And then like, name 3.0 was like a way where it was just, it pretty much was not the best experience. Arizona implemented the same thing. We haven't had netmeetering since 2017. Okay, so we've kind of been, Arizona is a tried and true, like, brewed of a market, you know, and sadly, it's very unfortunate. I'd say majority of people don't educate themselves enough of how to sell correctly in Arizona. We come across a lot of deals, like now kind of in Arizona, I'd say 90% you need to be doing batteries. The last like two years, it's sad to see the amount of sales companies and installers that are allowing jobs to be installed without a battery. Because the buyback now is like around six, seven cents. So if you do 100% of your home with solar, well, you're actually not getting 100% of the value because all that excess is only being bought at six cents, it's not a one for one. And every year the buyback goes down and down, so you kind of need a battery. And so yeah, it's changed. And I think a strength to my company and myself is we've always been willing to choose doing business the right way versus the wrong way. And even if that makes less money, or we lose out on certain groups that don't want to come work with us, just because they're all about how many deals I can sell and how we can do it right. And I think that's what has led to my personal success. I'm nearing close about 900 personal installs of my career. So I went many years doing over 100 plus installs. And so I learned it's like, man, it's not what you make per deal, it's what you make per year. And if you can maximize referrals and doing good business, you're going to get a way better return on your investment and then just slamming in that one deal because I'm going to make a little bit more on that. And that's principles, my father and many of my mentors taught me is like, you got to look at it from a business perspective of not just like, what's in it right now, but what's in it now and long term? And yeah, and I couldn't agree more when I was also doing it. And I remember there was a time, like Arizona, Ores was like number one in the market. And it had the most revenue. It just had the teams that was successful. Also, of course, leadership seemed to have been a bit more structured as well there. But the market was just there were killing it. And it wasn't just us. I noticed even three different companies. And that's like 21, 22, around 23. Would you say Arizona is despite it being so saturated and competitive, it still seems to be producing. Would you say it's the same right now in two years later from then? It's definitely less. A lot of people have gotten out of Arizona, which kind of you want, because they're usually the people that may have been doing business the wrong way. Like I said, the way you need to sell in Arizona is very niche. Now you have to, majority jobs do a battery. There isn't net metering, it's net billing, the buybacks going down every year. So there's a lot of factors to where, if you do business the right way, Arizona can be good. I'd say sadly Arizona. And in California too, like California's our biggest market. If you do business the right way with batteries all that kind of stuff, you can thrive. But sadly, people have looked at the solar industry as a cash grab. So they're in here just to go and make these big commissions versus what's best for the customer of their business. And those guys are short lived. I've seen that, these guys that chase, well I'm going to make more per deal. I never see them last longer than a year or two. They always try to, you know, they're chasing all the time. Where exactly? I've set my career upwards like, hey, I've been able to build a foundation and then build off that and that provides more consistency. And I've noticed as well, even from what you're saying, people like you, the Ashley Buswells, I interviewed Sam Taggerd as well, like I think a year and a half ago or a year ago. But integrity is so important in this specific market and field. I feel like solar specificity is inherited like the pest control douchebags over time. Well, and here's the true toes. Everyone in the industry talks about doing right by the customer, but it isn't interesting how majority of installers don't check jobs. So like you and I, we can go sell a job today and put panels on whatever roof and do whatever offset. Majority of installers and it's kind of a call out to a lot of installers out there and sales works. They don't validate that deal. We do. When we sell a job here specifically in Arizona, if the usage isn't put incorrect, we deny it. If you aren't doing a battery, we'll reject it until there's a reason. So like everyone talks the talk in the industry, like, oh yeah, we're customer first. Well, then why do you guys let any kind of system be installed? Why do you let any kind of sales rep sell for you? Because all these guys really, the motive behind what people really say is based off their actions. And we've noticed like at our size, we're one of the very few sales organizations that I know in the industry that actually will check jobs on the back end to make sure that the information all lines up. And but yet people don't do that, but they always want to talk about how they care so much about our customers. But it's also a big reason why the industry's getting such a bad rap. Because these guys are like, well, yeah, we're very big about our customer. Well, then why do you let this company sell for you? And we know they're putting panels on the north roof, when everyone knows doing a system on the north roof, especially in Arizona actually is worse than better for the customer. Yeah. So I always think through that stuff. I agree more. I mean, I had so many bad experiences with some installers, like core energy. I don't know if you've ever heard of them. My gosh, like the nice thing is that they install super quickly, but it's like at what cost. Yeah. And I'm saying like the unprofessionalism, they just slap roofs up. Sometimes they damage the tiles up there. Like it's one of those things where it's like a fuss. And that's why they went down and under, you know, and I also knew like the owner as well, but not to be like mentioned that, it's the fact that when you mention the whole back office thing, I think it's important because it's actually caring about the customer because many people speak it, but don't actually do it. It's what about the money at the end of the day, you know. So, and the main check is what do they do in the job is sold? Most majority of installers currently, when a job is sold, they will just continue to progress every job. Very few companies, sales, or yen installers, actually will validate deals. And be like, hey, did this homeowner actually use this much power? Where are the panels placed and will it produce right? Because here in Arizona specifically, you have on and off peak times. So during, you know, the afternoon, it's more expensive. Well, if you put solar panels on the east, where is the sun at 4 p.m.? It's on the west, but yet a lot of guys will install a system with panels on the east, installers claim, oh yeah, we're big about the customer. Why are you letting your installers put panels on an east roof when you do need some on a south or west to offset the peak times? Right, it's just a lot, but yet, people don't think like that, right? It's sad that sales guys are like, why just don't care? Because I just want my job installed. So I get paid bank, bro. It's just like, it's a really bad mindset, in my opinion. I couldn't agree more. And then, are you guys your own installer or you, you okay? Now, so our model is very unique. So we've gone down the route of using a single installation company. The last almost two years, we now, we contract out to more local regional installers, similar to every construction, right? Okay. There is no one big construction company. What we found, we're very, what's best for the customer and rep experience? And we've just found our company. We are the big box sales engine, right? Sunder, my company, we handle all the culture, the growth of sales. And then in each different market, we use a more local regional installers because every market's so different, right? Arizona permits and AHAs are completely different than Maryland or Texas. And so it's been unique having to figure out how to tile that together. But also it's been a huge blessing. We have found that our customers and reps have had a way better hands on experience because when you use a more local construction company, there are a lot more hands on to giving a better experience because they know their market. Similar to if you and I build a home in Arizona, we fly to Florida, we're not using the same home builder. So that's kind of our approach to it. We've tried the big box one construction company, one thing. There's pros and cons to it. We just found overall, if you're really putting the customer at first, in my opinion, it's a lot more of a hands on experience because there's so many nuances when it comes to doing a solar install. And then it's that trajectory and plan and at least they just try and become your own installer or right now. We will never become an installer. It is the last thing. It's just not the play right now. Like, and this is where sales guys don't have respect for installers, it doesn't matter the size. The installers are the ones that take on all the risk and liability. But yet these sales guys are like, well, who's gonna pay me the most and do this for me? It's like, you need to have a win win. But you always have your installers, the biggest or a local, they need to stay in business. Those are the ones that are gonna try to service that system, right? Those are the ones who's gonna pick up the phone when there's an issue. Most of these sales guys aren't gonna be in door to door in many years to come. And so, it's unique to see that, but we have no intentions of doing any of the construction because it's just not the play. Okay. And then with the old installer thing, have you had any, obviously, experience of setbacks with bad installers and what are the specific criteria that you look for to try and gain like the right installers for that specific market that you guys are currently in right now? Yeah, I'd say for us, it's an ever-changing kind of industry right now. The bill, all these kinds of things coming out, I think for us, the most important thing is just financial health and stability. Something unique about our model is we have partnerships with a lot of the banks in the industry that kind of help guide us on which installers to use and not to use. So we're able to cross reference, like, okay, this is when this installer gets funded. Is that slow or fast? This is the material they have. So we've been able to do a really good job at our size vetting out a lot of the facts of financials, how much crew capacity they have, do they have enough capacity to actually handle our volume? What's their strategy? Are they diversified? And so for us, that's kind of what we look for is just like health of the installer. It's not about who's the cheapest, it's more about the quality. Because right now the name of the game is not, the fastest installers is just who's gonna pay? Because the banks are changing, like the money's drying up in this industry right now in a very weird way, because of the big, the big, beautiful bill. So it's about who's got stability and security that's not over leveraging themselves. The sad thing you see in this industry is majority of companies go chase volume and then now they become beholden to that, right? And so they're willing to drop their shorts and do all these things because they have to get volume to get business. We're more focused on, okay, who can actually like maintain a healthy kind of relationship and not over leverage themselves? And I mean, there's just so much, it's like a billion dollar industry, like solar as a whole, and with all government incentives and everything else, why do you think it's been the leading factor to why so many companies have went down and under over time? Three things, I think one, I mentioned this earlier, the install companies are willing to give anyone in their mother the cheapest cost. You know, you today I can introduce you to 10 solar installers here in Arizona that will give you the same cost to go do an install as they are giving it to one of their other partners. So one, these installers are dropping their shorts because they want volume two, they're not regulating the volume. So they're allowing, you look at kind of the trends of some of these companies that have gone bankrupt, they give away, they gave, you know, they don't understand that it's something they're hard cost and soft cost. So they go give everyone a cheap call red line, but then they don't realize that they're actually losing money because everyone has this cheap cost too. They're the ones that are installing any type of job, they're not regulating the size of the system, they're not regulating if the panels are on the right roof, all the factors. So then that leads to three, which is now they start spending a lot of money, fixing things and chasing things. It's a common trend if you look at the last 10 years, that is what's happened to some of these big companies and small that got a business. And then the finance companies are really starting to crack down on just because you have the system installed, doesn't mean we're gonna find you, you have to have all these like criteria. So that's really how clear it is, is just they give everyone way too low of a cost that shouldn't deserve it, should be met off volume, but they get so desperate too, they're not regulating their deals, so they're letting all these bad deals happen, which then three leads to them having to fix more things. And then what does that sales group do, that sold bad business, they just go to the next guy. Yeah. So then it's like they're left holding the bag and it's like well you did this to yourself, you let everyone and their mother come on, sell it, give them a cheap cost, you didn't protect your margins, you were desperate for volume, you didn't regulate their business, so therefore you pay the price. You know, yeah that's fascinating. And then obviously you guys have got 1,500 people right now, isn't there a few years sometimes of growing a little too fast in terms of the sales reps, aspect as well, because sometimes growing too fast can be detrimental to a company's growth and the trajectory of with the hating, is that a concern for you guys at the moment? We've been big for a long time, like I said, some start in 2019. I think we've passed over 55,000 solar installs in our career. So we've done it a big guys, I think it comes down to just, you don't manage people who manage systems, and I think we've created really good systems. We have a tech platform, we have great leadership, and so we've been able to manage that because of the systems we have, and because of our platform, people are coming to our company because of the security and stability we provide to them, where a lot of people in the industry are scared right now, going and tying yourself to an installation company right now is very scary, because there's a lot of unknowns. You know, these companies are promising this, they're going out of business, that guy's left missing out hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? So I think guys are realizing being somewhere where you have a diversification is very safe to them. I look at it the same way, I'm sure you invest in the stock market, right? Do you own a stock, or do you have a variety of stocks? Just a few, yeah, I have a few. Yes, and so it's the same thing, what we learned a couple years ago, why go put all of our money our eggs in one basket? Where now our model is very diversified, where we're using a variety of different construction companies, which allows us to be very nimble and also protected because of one position of our company was to maybe struggle, it's not taken down the whole program. And that's how sales guys want it. Selfishly, if you and I are selling in Arizona, you don't really care how's it going in Illinois. You just want the best experience here and vice versa, right? And so what we've provided is a platform to where you're still part of that whole ecosystem, but you're getting your selfishly best experience to where you're serving your clients. So, and it also diversifies our business, we don't have any fixed overhead, we don't own trucks, warehouses, branches, we don't have all these big fixed expenses that can go take a company down when times get tough. Oh gosh, I love that. And I mean, at the fact that you very stuck on principle of what the vision and like your mission is, sometimes I feel like people end up trying to take on responsibility, try to become an install, try to become this thing, try to become that thing. And then before you know it, it just always sinks in because it's like, if it's not broken, why you got to fix the driver, just go one direction and continue to enhance the trajectory and the path that you're kind of going as well. And I think it seems important, the fact that you know, you stuck to your principles and you're going in that direction. However, what are some of the things that you are doing right now to try and prevent the company from going down like most of these companies that have in this industry? I think number one, we, if you look at the common trend again, this isn't to knock on people in the industry, this isn't of all be all majority of the companies that have gone out of business have taken on the liability of construction. Hmm. So for us, we're gonna avoid that because like I just mentioned earlier, when you become the installer, you don't have to have the trucks, the warehouses, you gotta have the credit lines to buy equipment, you gotta service the system. So you take on a massive fixed expense. My company is a massive sales organization that is very asset light. We have, I think, 20 employees, we have tech, we have optionality. So that is our difference, is we are gonna stay in this kind of middle ground where we're one of the largest sales organizations, but yet we don't have to carry any of the liability or debt. And that is what these guys have chased, they go and become their own installer, and you run that risk, not saying everyone's doing it wrong, just saying that you start to take on fixed expenses, and then if things get tough, you still have the mortgage to pay. So you either close it down, to this point, no one's really been able to prove the national construction model at scale on a long term basis. There's always been kind of this like thing that happens, right, you look at a sun run, they've shut markets down over the last couple of years, you look at some of the bigger installers, they've gone bankrupt, the tight ends, ADT, no one's been able to kind of keep that program going on a long term basis without something else having to sacrifice. That's so fascinating, not coming down to like the sales rep as well. You guys have programs for summer and year-round, oh how does that work? We're like 90% year-round, I think that's what makes Sunday unique, is we aren't some summer program, we're not a blitz program, we don't go hammer a market leave, we've built a really good year-round consistent business. A lot of our leaders live in markets, I think people get into our industry because they want a lifestyle, they don't want to have to go leave for the summer, some guys do, we do have teams that do that and stuff, but we've been very heavily based off, hey you live and work where you are, you have a lifestyle, go home to your kids at night kind of thing, that's truly why I got into solar, I don't want to go leave and go do alarm cells over the summer and leave, I was like man if I can do solar, I can make the money I need to make where I live and still have that lifestyle. And I think that's what also worked as well for me, because I did like two years year-round and obviously it's where I got the most success because as much as we hammered that down in like the summer time, like the year-round was a bit more scheduled, like you treated like an actual job, you go out a few hours there, a career, and it's just way more efficient, it was also a good time which is less stressful so you can see the round like those customers, the referrals, you work a little smarter, you find strategies and you become a bit more useful, but at the same time summer, because you're in a structure where it's like an office base, can also just like be a quick injection of boost for you as well, but which kind of leads to like, and if you do a year-round thing, how do you prevent burning out? I think it's a marathon, not a sprint. You know, what I love for everyone to go work eight, 10 hours a day, sure. I think the reality is it's all about scheduling and having a plan to where you do create this like a career, having kind of your schedule where you know, your time's to go generate business, your time's to close business, your time's to train. So I think it's more of a marathon versus sprint of having that kind of consistency of a schedule, when you're in a competition, go, go hard. When you're not, you know, live that kind of lifestyle, go on those vacations kind of thing, is kind of the thing, but I think also being somewhere, people want to be somewhere where they're around others doing more than what they are currently doing. So I think Sunders, Job and many great companies out there create a culture to where people are part of something that helps them feel like they're working towards something bigger all the time, so they continue to drive forward and all that kind of stuff. That's, that's, that's amazing. Then what would separate like, I mean, you've done an average 100 or more installs a year in like the 10 year span. What separates like those sales reps that make a hundred compared to those that are like in the 20 or low, because all the information is there and like the same pitch and everything, what separates those elite from like just your average? Cause 20 is still like a good like amount, considering like how much it gets paid, but it's nowhere near the level and standard like those that are doing exception world. Yeah, I'd say, I'd say this isn't just an industry, it's in life. The biggest traits, the two biggest traits I've noticed besides all the cliche work hard all day, but the two main things that I'll say that's different is successful people in this industry, they know their KPIs, key performance indicators. If you talked to any of my great leaders I work with, they can tell you exactly, their goal is three deals this week, they can tell you exactly reverse engineering, they can tell you if they need three deals, they can tell you how many people they need to sit with, they can tell you how many appointments they have to set, they can tell you how many homeowners are decision makers, and then they can tell you how many doors. So anyone that's successful in anything knows their KPIs. And in our job, that's what I learned from my mentors early on, I take the emotion out of it. Everyone's so focused, oh you got to work X amount of hours, I don't care about the hours. The hours are a byproduct. If your goal is to go knock 200 doors, how many hours does it take to knock 200 doors? 10, 12. So see a lot of you guys are like, you can, but your emotions play games on you. If you're like, man, I've been out for an hour, I need to go home. I think the fatigue for me, it's like, no, if my goal every day is just to talk to 10 decision makers, well, halfway through, I'm like, beat myself up, and I'm like, oh, I'm only a five, I'm winning, I'm halfway to my goal, when I head 10, I'll go home. So I take out the emotional thing of the hours, but I'd say number one, they know their numbers. And number two, if they know their numbers, they know their steps to everything they do, they know their steps to the door approach, the clothes, and this is any career. Every successful person, like, did you play sports growing up? Yeah. Is there a single professional athlete that you know that doesn't know their metrics? Impossible. Impossible. Especially the more you become like, saying you pro and professional, it's just everything is just, but Ron knows exactly what his free throw percentage is. So again, reps and even people in life, one, they don't track their numbers, so they don't track their stats of, when performance is measured, performance improves. So they don't track their performance, so therefore they don't know to improve. And then therefore, they don't have steps to each of the things they're doing if it's door to door. They don't have their steps to the door approach, they don't have their steps to that, maybe they're closing process. So therefore, it's like, those two go together. You track your numbers to then identify if you're skipping a step. So those are the my two things, is that's what I've noticed the difference is, for me, did I go knock 30 hours a week? No. I just figured out my numbers and said, okay, if I want to do 100 installs, I need to sell this many. I need to dig, and I just reverse engineer, I just stuck to that every week. And it just made it really easy, and it didn't burn me out because I was like, oh, this is easy. And then, consistent led to excellence to where out of every 10 homeowner's and average person's just set one appointment, well, if you consistently do something, it leads to every 10 homeowner's two appointments. So the reason I was able to go do high numbers and a lot of leaders I've worked with do more numbers, is it's not that they increase their work time on the doors, they just increase their productivity by consistently sticking to that, which made them more effective. Powerful. And I think it was Malcolm Gladwell, that spoke about the doctrine of the 10,000 hours as well, and consistency, as you mentioned, like obviously leads to excellence. The blueprints are there for people that have been successful. You mentioned LeBron James, Messy Ronaldo, all these professional athletes that are just so good at what they do, Serenio Williams, Tom Brady. Everyone knows success comes from consistency. What, why can't people just maintain that level of consistency, especially like in the door to door industry? Harvard did the study of the reference group. It's all about who you're surrounded with. I think that is why you look at, in door to door, guys chase the dollar. So they're always been like, well, if I can go get paid more per deal, I'm gonna make more. Well, it's not about what you make per deal, it's what you make per deal. You look at Vivint, they're kind of the crown jewel of door to door back when they were at their heyday of alarms, right? More people made money at Vivint in door to door back on the heyday than they did going and being their own alarm company. It's the same principle. And so I've done this 10 years now. I have seen so many guys go be their own little solar company and I've never seen any of them actually out earn majority of the people that are plugged into a sales program over the over consistency of one, two, three years. Because again, I think the secret is you need to be, you need to have a reference group. You need to have those five, ten, or in our case, hundreds of people. And this is a shout out to some of the other big sales organizations too. The companies that can create a reference group of that, that is what helps people go be more successful. But sadly, and I'm different, I grew up with big money. My dad's wealthy, I grew up with other people. So I've saw early on principles of success. Sadly, many people getting into solar, when I ask people, most of their parents need to make sick figures. They don't know what it's like to go be a millionaire. For me, that's all I knew growing up was like, I look at my dad, almost at 14, didn't go to college. The guys multi-millionaire. I look at my neighbor and I'm like, okay, these guys are great human beings. And they have a ton of money. What principles they apply. So that's all I took is just applying that. But what I learned from my dad, especially as my dad didn't make all the money himself, he's telling me all the time he was maxed, I would have made a 20th of what I made if it wasn't for my business partners. You know, my dad made a lot of his money in the internet boom. He is not a tech guy. You know, he is a sales guy. You know, but it's all about that. So that would be my answer. It's all about your reference group. I'm always willing to give a little bit here to gain more here, half a watermelon's more than a full grape. Powerful. And so for me, I've always been luckily trained early on from the people I have in my life to focus on being with the right people, with the right platform. Because the byproduct is half a watermelon's more than a full grape and financially, it's done wonders for me and many of the guys that I've worked with. And that's why Jim Ron said you are the average of the fire people you hang out with. Because naturally you end up picking up traits, you end up picking up habits. And that's why if you with a group of degenerate people, even if you're a very cottage educated person, you just end up like inheriting those traits. And it's also been proven, as you mentioned, that Harvard study, if you end up hanging out with people that I think they made a study as well, because I'm originally born in rings of Africa. And I think I once learned and heard about this scenario where they were encouraging kids just sit on the table with their parents. And they got to find out that those that would watch TV and eat denoal watching TV, compared to those that were just sitting with their parents, same class, same age, same everything, those that sat with their parents on the table started hearing conversations were becoming a bit more intellectual. They started like being better critical thinkers as well. And I think with what you mentioned, because you've seen that, that's all you know. And it's easy because now if you're on the for level of mentorship, you know your dad's when he made that amount of money, it's almost like, okay, well, that's the norm, you know what I'm saying? And I think it's so hard for those that haven't had those mentors. But like what advice would you have for those people that haven't had the level of mentorship? Drop the ego, because again, everything I see in this industry, everyone, the reason why they go do their own thing is they're just ego-tistic. I can go do it myself. But I find me a billionaire that did it on their own. Not as a single one of them. There's no successful person that will say, I am this because of myself. They've all had people, they've had business partners, they've had, you know, things. So my advice is like, drop the ego and go find the people that are doing things in categories that you want to be better at, that you're, go find those people that are being, what you want to be in those categories, right? Similar, you know, you and I know Jake and Joe, the twins are talking about, I needed to kind of whip my butt and get back in shape, you know, so I called them and said, hey, they're hustling, I'm gonna go work out with them. And you know, shout out to those guys, that was last summer, I was like, I can get back in shape. That's again, the drop the ego, right? Like, I'm older than them, all this kind of stuff. No, dude, I don't care, they're freaking cool. They're gonna help me, right? So again, people are so short-minded in this industry, they think about, well, if I go sell this one deal, I can make two grand more on this one deal if I'm by myself. Well, great, I haven't found any of you that consistently have a successful career, you're always chasing, because then you try to build and then you lose guys, you know, it's just a revolving door. And you said, ego, I couldn't agree more. And I think that's so hard because it's given the door to door such a bad rip. And that's where I learned most of, like, I've always been an extra vet, I've always been a person. I mean, I did two internships in New York. I've got a full time offer there, and they'd be climbing it to try and, like, follow the pursuit of, like, being on top of you. But my point is, like, I feel like just the few rotten, few are just giving a bad rip for everyone else, you know, like, the whole, like, I am this, I am that kind. Like, fake numbers, just, all this stuff is given the door to door rip such a toxic trait, but it's the one place where people have gained the most skill from, you know what I'm saying? Would you agree? Yeah, I wish, it's funny as I talk to people. I've been in it 10 years, so I started when commissions were 1500, 2000. You know, now they're seven, 10, right, six. The sad reality is, most people got into the soul of the last five years, so all they know is big commissions. Exactly. So sadly, and I hope a lot of those guys will kind of wean out as this bill comes through and they'll change a lot of things. Olm's analytic, which is a big, kind of, analytical data thing for residential, says, you know, they project, project a 60% volume production if this bill goes through as it is and stuff like that, and solar. But you look at it and you're like, yeah, the majority of the industry right now is made up of guys that got into it during COVID to go make bank, bro, and aren't really thinking about, and don't know how to run a business. And that's the thing is we've cultivated this culture in our industry. Anyone can be a business owner because like I mentioned the earlier, you could call any installation company and they'll let you be your own sales company. So everyone has this ego, like I'm a CEO and it's like, you have no, you've never learned business or ran a business or around people in business, but because this installer said that you can be your own sales company, therefore you have this entitlement of it. And I've never been learned by that because I'm like, if that was going to make me the most per year and my guys, I do it, but I'd never have had that thought. Money's a byproduct to me because of how I grew up. I'm always going to make money. So I'm going to focus on other things that matter more within the byproduct becomes more money. And it's crazy that you mentioned that because, unfortunately, I think another driving factor for this is social media because there are so many of these gurus that are out there. And half of them are, in fact, not even half of a large majority are just so phony, you know what I'm saying? And it's been, that's why I'm saying it's been such an enlightening thing being with the twins because they're being making me work on every single day. It's been the first time I've worked out for like five days in a row, we're going on six as well. But I feel like we're losing the plot of just genuineness of people because social media is painting a thing of the figure, like, hey, I make this amount and you just take what people's words are saying. And I think it's just the sales broke culture. I just wish they would just die out. It's just giving the rep such a bad name where it's door to door is because some of the best people have come across ever. You know, would you add on that as well? My dad to door to door, then Mark Cuban to door to door. Yeah. Door to door is, I think it's cool. Everyone wants to be a business owner. Door to door is the best way to be, like entrepreneurship on training wells. You can basically be your own entrepreneur with 10.99 and fail and not lose your business. If you think about this week, I could go out and, you know, because what are business owners have to do? They have to generate their own business. They have to learn people's skills. Like door to door is literally entrepreneurship 101. The beautiful thing about door to door is that it's training wells and the fact that if you got a whole week and you fell at entrepreneurship, not generating business, you don't lose your business, right? If you own a store and you fell at those kind of things, you lose your business because it's, so, I look at it at that perspective, like, man, why don't opportunity we have to really go like learn all the skillsets that business owners have and need to go own your businesses down the road, you know? Because you look at a lot of the greats in door to door the last 30 years. Most of the successful ones have gone on to do very successful things. So I view it that way too as, man, I love what we're doing right now. It's the best thing to learn skillsets to then be, to be ready for your future kind of entrepreneurship. Because you kind of have a buffer right now to fail, right? If I got today a knock and I don't get an appointment, that's okay, I can go make it up tomorrow. When you own a real business, if you miss payroll for your employees, your business is done, you know what I mean? So like, I love that concept. But I think with this beautiful bill, it's helped people realize like to your point, you know, I always tell people when you're, when I'm recruiting, ask me questions about what investments I have. Ask me about like, what I've done with my career. Because most of these guys you see, what they've done with their careers, buy shoes. They don't own a house, they don't own a car. How much recurring revenue do you have? You know, I make $15,000 a month of passive income right now. And that's all because of the money I've made in solar to invest in deals outside of solar that now pay my bills. I talked about that openly because most guys in solar can't say that. If you ask most of these gurus and top dudes, like cool, what kind of like cash flowing assets do you have? Well, you know, they don't know, you know, they don't, it's just baffles me, right? But guys go follow those guys, ask those kind of questions, like, hey, what kind of recurring revenue do you have? What investments do you own? What long-term deals do you have? You know, like that's the kind of methodology I have. But again, I was raised different. A lot of these guys are like, yeah, but that dude drives a cool car and that benefits you how? You know, that's how I feel. I get passionate about it. You know, it's like, dude, it's all about investing and setting yourself up, you know? Love that so much. The question I had about leadership then, would you think, would you say, rather that leadership, do you think you're born with it or something you can actually gain and develop over time? Oh, bit of folks. I think both, like, you know, there's three types of people in this world. Those people that make it happen, watch it happen and wonder what the hell happened, right? I'll be the first to me when I was growing up. I was a little bit of a made it happen versus and watch it happen, right? Because, you know, I drove a blackout escalator in high school. Like, I was giving a lot of things, right? It wasn't until I grew up when I'm my church mission that I got home and then realized I had more of a made it happen kind of attitude. So I think it is a combination of both. I've lived both to where I didn't really make it happen because I didn't need to, but then when I realized when I had to, I actually made it happen. But again, that goes back to me is, I think everyone can develop those skillsets, but it's all about who you go surround yourself with. You know, a lot of these guys in this door-door space take on the mentality, I'm gonna go do it myself. Exactly. And therefore, they never develop the trade swam over here. Like, dude, if I'm gonna make a little less on these deals, but I'm a, like, I talked about investments earlier, if you ask a handful of the leaders I personally work with, one of my top leaders, he makes $7,500 a month and passive income outside of solar. 90% of that is from investments that me and him are doing together. So see, my mind goes into, okay, I'll take less money if I can work with you because it sounds like you're gonna help me in another aspect of life. And therefore, the byproduct is, I'm gonna actually make that up 10x, 100%. So see, my mind goes, and this is where these guys, and that's life, but like, I always view it that way, okay? Because you know, a lot of these gurus and door-to-door guys are like, oh yeah, you gotta go buy real estate and invest. Okay, how? We just do it. And it's like, they don't know how. I'm over here like, I can tell you, I can help many people in my life. And anyone, if they call me, I can give them five to six deals right now that can help them make passive income and actually teach them how, because I was taught how. I have people living that lifestyle and that actually introduced me to the people, right? And my blessing is to pass that along to people I know. I couldn't agree more. Thank you so much, like for sharing, I'm touching on that, the reason why, like when I think about that, Max, I just think about how I have to even change my interview style over time because, like, yes, the first few guests with like big names, but a lot of the stuff was so vague. Like, yeah, go work hard, it's all in your mind. You know, like I'm like, I have like, you know, I'm a 10 figure on trucking here and yeah, if you go and put your, all the eggs, you can do it there. But there is no blueprint. There is no steps, there is no stuff that I'm in. No tangibility, my dad's one of my biggest fans. And I'm not gonna throw on my guests down here, because I'm really grateful for each and every single person. Like, that's been there because they've helped elevate the show by bringing their audience as well. But one of my dad, I was a guy who said, you know, they made this amount of money, like it was super high. But like, my dad's like, okay, but how did he make it? So I went to go watch the interview again. And there was like, there was nothing there was. Like, I make that, you can go do it as well. I'm amazing, I'm this kind of that thing. But it's like, that's not the purpose, like people. But the thing is, sometimes people get a following from that and people start loving it. But it's like, what did you gain from being at that seminar? Because you just heard how amazing this person is. But there is no blueprint. There is no step of like fine, go build up your creative score off the build up your creative score, end up like finding the right finance. They can like do that thing. Okay, where do you get the listing? Go to like the certain website as well. Get a realtor that can help you get the, you know, but there is no blueprint. It was always, I make this thing amazing. And I think the fact that you said that I think it's a very attractive trade because it shows already transparency number one. And it shows trust because nice, you can break those two things down. It's easy for somebody to trust you. But everyone is so obsessed with social media. We just pick up on the big figures like, oh, that amount. But it's like, I've gained nothing and I paid a thousand bucks to be in the seminar but like I gained nothing. So I appreciate you being the openness. And I think that's probably very good for recruiting as well because recruiting is great, but also retention is far more important. It's easy to recruit. The secret is sustaining and retaining. And I'll say like, as you can tell, I'm a very logical person. Like, sadly, a lot of guys in this base get recruited off the emotion hype. I do really well recruiting people based off like tangible things. I can give them actual blueprint of how to get more appointments, how to deal more deals. And then beyond that, actually make more money. Like, one of my favorite texts last week from one of my leaders just texted me, hey man, just sent $75,000 into that investment fund. Thanks so much. Like, that's cool. That I had a leader that made that kind of money that just wired $75,000 into a real estate fund I'm in that I introduced him to. So like, that stuff's cool to me because I'm like, yeah, that is winning beyond what solar is and door to door. But that's what door to doors for is to be obsessed with this now to then diversify to that day. I've only lost money in two deals I've ever done. They're both deals that I never told my dad or his business partner's about. So I've learned, like, okay, I'm just kind of like, tell all the people I know about. And then I just don't lose, you know, because again, smart people learn from their mistakes, believe in it, learn from others. I'm just like, why? Obviously, how very brilliant people. I got a type that I continue. That's one of the best phrases I've heard. Small people learn from the state bridging people, but it's from others. Sorry. Again, I have learned, I've not learned into doing things that guys in the space too, trying to be their own, you know, installers, so to say, or their own sales or because I've learned, obviously that's not the long-term success for things like that, investing, right? So, but I'm very open, you know, I have a really unique childhood, right? My parents got divorced when I was nine. My mom became a drug addict who passed away from it, cocaine, heroin. So like, I'm very open about this stuff and my investments because I want people to also recognize, like, we all go through hardship. And the more that you can realize that as a blessing versus a curse, like me realizing to do, I have a mom growing up, she became addicted to drugs. Like, that actually was the biggest blessing in my life because it made me realize like, that is not the path to go down. I had a very good discernment, right? And so I've been able to really understand that I think a lot of people get scared to talk about things they go through in life. But I'm like, no, own it. I'm sure, like when I talk to people, most people have probably been an abusive family like I was. Most people maybe didn't have a mom growing up. Most people have been around drugs. Like I've been around all that kind of stuff. I'm grateful for that now because it's made me who I am today and it's made me realize like, door to door is easy. If you emotionally can't handle this, like you obviously haven't gone through hard things yet. For me, I'm over here when I was knocking doors a lot, I would be like, you know what? Am I gonna let that person that just yelled at me dictate my life when I over here had my mom leave me, die from drugs, like, you know, I get real about it, but I'm like, that, they say nothing. Like I can keep knocking doors if I can deal with this. And so I always tell people to like, buy it, you know, rely on the things you went through too. We've all had our experiences, right? I'm sure you've had your childhood and people here think about those things often and how that, you know, that's good in a sense. We need to go through hard things to get to the good stuff. Are you LDS? Yes. Okay, because I was able to say that the best part about our faith is understanding that like, these trials are good for us to actually gain the testimony and draw closer to our higher being, you know, our Heavenly Father as well. And I think one of my mentors also mentioned that like, life does not happen to you, but it happens for you as well. So when you mention all these stuff and you think about thinking, grow rich, every single person that has reached that level of success, that level of success came with a lot of scars, pain, anguish, all the different stuff, because throughout the marathon they built that character of who they are as well. And that quote, I'll say that you told me that quote, but that's a very, very beautiful quote. I was like, what did he say early on? And then you mentioned it again, I'm like, I'm sorry, I'm gonna take out my phone and type that. And it's like my mom, I learned from my mom of all her mistakes, you know, brilliant people learn from us. I learned from hers that what she was doing was not right. So therefore I thought, okay, I'm not gonna go do drugs. I'm not gonna let that be my out from all the, you know what I mean? So again, I look back on my life and I'm like, man, that is true. That's why you need that reference group and you need good people because you can't put a price tag on that, right? When I have recruited people, I'm like, I don't think they can put a price tag on the amount of money I can help them make outside of solar, which actually makes up maybe giving up a couple hundred bucks on a deal. If I can go make them a couple hundred bucks of cashflow, that's worth way more, you know, things. So yeah, I love that principle because that's how I view life and what I always look at people. Okay, what can I learn from you that's good and bad? And the bad I'm gonna discern it, I'm gonna realize, do I do it or not? You know, what's the outcome, right? Look at my mom when she died, you know, as I mentioned earlier, my mom got half the money my dad got millions of dollars when she died. She had $32 in her bank account. That's so sick. She lost everything. We had a 10 acre horse ranch in Scottsdale, 60, like we had it, like she had everything. She could have just been set. So logically I looked at it and I said, man, this beautiful woman is dying right now and not only is she dying, but she literally lost everything. That's gonna be my choice of not falling her path. So I stayed away from all this stuff and so did my sisters. We're both, we're all married now, we're all children. So it's been cool to kind of like learn from others' experiences as well. And I don't think people tap into that much. A lot of people try to push away bad things that happen to them. I like embracing. Cause then you learn from them. That's so powerful. Thanks for sharing that, man. I really appreciate that. I just wanted to ask two more questions as we conclude right now. And I think it's, I just love just the entrepreneurial rawness. It's just so real like everything you just said and this transparency is so important. Cause like I said, we so focused on the last number as well. What would you say is the best part, not the hardest part, but the best part of being an entrepreneur? I'd say, you know, I don't know who says these quotes, but it's like how money doesn't buy happiness. It does like money buys happiness because money buys freedom. You know, however, a lot of gurus say that stuff. Probably, it might lead probably. That sounds like an aid buy. Yeah, but it's true. It's, I think the best thing about time for newer is, is one, you can go, there's no cap on what you can accomplish, right? There's no, there's no floor and there's no ceiling. But if you're a make it happy kind of person, all it's about is what is my ceiling? How can I get there? But I love being on for newer cause it's like dude, it allows me to buy time to spend time, you know, buy, it allows me to make money, which allows me to have freedom, which brings happiness cause I just have my third kid two weeks ago. Congratulations, brother. Thank you, thank you. So like by having this freedom, I can go spend time, you know, with my kids, even though my wife will say, I, I'd not, but I'm working on that, you know. There's a balance, you know, she's like, hey, what's more important, you know, we'll get to that. But I'd say that's a big blessing. And then I just, I, again, I love the fact that you, the whole go to college, like the whole model's dead. Your return on investment for doing the normal thing in the society is wrong. The amount of debt you go into go to school to go get a career. Now, saying if you're gonna be a lawyer, trades, there's probably a good return there. But I just look at that. I'm like, man, being on for new is the best. When you go to become a doctor, you gotta trade two things in life. You gotta trade time and a ton of money to then make a return. To do what we do, again, this is entrepreneurship on training wheels. All door to door is asking you to do is just trade your time. And then your return on investment is a lot quicker. You can go make doctor money in 12 months where doctors that usually take some 10 years. So I've always loved entrepreneurship and specifically like door to door because I can go in just trade time. I don't have to trade money to then go make my return on investment in one year versus having to then wait eight to 10 years. That's so powerful. If that makes sense. Now that's perfect. That's perfect. And then because the podcast is called the code to winning hours, us people this towards the end, because it's obviously insights you need today to seize the world tomorrow. Everyone's got a different definition of what winning is. And I mean, with all the golden nuggets you gave, I don't know what they can answer for this one. But like in your opinion, if a max can only what does the term winning mean for you? Again, I'm very systematic. Winning to me is being dialed in on your KPIs. So knowing what your key performance indicators are. Number two, it's then having a process to anything you're doing. Even if it's not door to door, what are the key steps that you need to be focusing on? But then using the numbers. So here's like a, it's example is like, I teach reps this. If you knocked 400 doors, but only talked to 20 homeowners, there's a key identifier that you clearly are either knocking at the wrong time. If you knocked on 400 doors, you should talk to you to door to door. You should talk to like more than 20 homeowners, right? We'll see what that should tell you is that, okay, I'm knocking at the wrong time. And most of the time I go talk to that rep and they're like, oh yeah, I went knock from 10 to 2 PM. And I think you did door to door. Is that a productive time to knock in a normal like sub-bird? No, right? Maybe a retirement area, right? So see, I'd say the code of success for me is just, I obsess over the KPIs. So then the byproduct of that, I can preemptively understand if I'm skipping steps in my process. And that's in any aspect of life, right? If my numbers are off on my doors, I can go look at the door approach and see I'm clearly skipping a step. Majority of people you ask in life, they can't tell you what their steps are. So like most people in door to door, I ask them all the time, tell me your five steps are your door approach. They can't do it. You know, when you can simplify, you can testify. Learn that in the mission. And so I learn this principle. I'm like, man, if I can do my door approach in five steps, like six words, I could do it in 100 words. Most guys though don't do that. They don't track their numbers to then identify, and then they don't know their steps, and then they don't cross reference it, right? And it's just, to me, I'm like, why not? It makes it so easy. So that would be my answer to you is, again, it goes back to those two principles, is obsess over knowing your KPIs, so then you can preemptively avoid mishaps, because you and I both know you've been a real lot of successful people. Most will tell you the reason why they're not, they don't reach their goal is they slightly get off the path. It's like an airplane, if it goes from, like do you know this answer? If you take a plane from LA to New York and it's off half a degree south, where does it end up? For Manlach and Yorker probably end up like in a different city or country as well. It's like down the Bahamas. Yeah. So see the concept is like, man, just a half a degree will make you so far from your destination. The reason why I obsess over those two principles is in life, you just need bumpers. You're gonna get off the path. Well, if you have clear step-by-step guidelines, well, if you're tracking your numbers and you have guidelines, you can just make that kind of critique, that slight tweak to stay on the path to get to your destination. That makes sense. No, I love it so much. Max, if you could let off, I'll guess, no way that you could get a hold of you if they wanna try and jump into solar or even people that are within Arizona or any other region as well, where you could go with the one to buy solar as well. Can let off you as no. Yeah, yeah. I can be better at social media. Max Gannley is my Instagram. I'm private, you can follow me. I'm not a big solar guru. I don't post a time. I'm trying to get better at it, you know. Times changing, you know, you're more than welcome to message me on there. I'm always down to get my phone number. If any of you guys too want to talk investments, I love strategizing. So if you want to reach out to me on Instagram or Facebook, I'll give you my cell phone number. We can text call. If you've got ideas about investments, I'd love to talk about vice versa. I think all that kind of stuff. It doesn't have to be just solar. Awesome stuff. The code to winning insights you need to date to seize the world tomorrow. Max Gannley, thank you so much brother. Appreciate it.