Dr. Orna On The Biggest Mistake Couples Make

Hello, and welcome back to the Friday feels episode of the U. Up podcast. I'm Jordanne Abraham. And I am Jared freed. It is so good to be back here with you, Jordanne, but it is especially good cause we have a very special guest today. They are the, I would call you the host, but also the, the couples therapist on the show, couples therapy and it's coming out to show time the new season on May 15th. A real get for us. We've been trying forever. We're so happy to have her. Dr. Orna Garelnik. Thank you for coming on the show. Cool. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure. Thank you for doing this. Uh, you, how are you today? What's going on? What goes on in, in, in Dr. Orna's life today is a good day. Today is a good day. Uh, yesterday was Mother's Day, which was really fun. Amazing. And I, um, also handed in the final version of my book yesterday. That's a bigger day than Mother's Day. I gotta say, a big day with, as a big day, you're on a show with a couple of people who've written books and that's a stressful time writing a book. Yeah. It was an intense two years. Yeah. And the, the book is like about, um, like your experience in being a couples therapist. It's a book about relationships, about couples, but the whole thing that we do like coupling up. Right. And so obviously you're the, the couples therapist on the show couples therapy, but, um, like how, like how long have you been a therapist? Like what's your, what's your background? What made you want to become a therapist? Did you do only do couples or did you do an individual too? Like I want to know the whole, and explain to us how much harder it is to write a book than it is to be a mother. Any other questions? Should I answer it all in one second? Yeah. Under 30 seconds. No, I'm a therapist. I'm a psychoanalyst. So I see individual patients in analysis and I also see couples. And I've been a therapist for many years, probably longer than the two of you have been alive. You're 85 years old. Jared's pretty old. Holy shit. I, I, you're How old are you, Jared? I'm 65. No, I am, I'm 41. I've been working for a long time. Oh wow. I mean, if I mean, you brought it up, I don't, I don't hope this is a, how old are you Dr. Orna? You look great. I'm 62. You're 62. 62 and rocking. Unbelievable. Oh wow. You don't get personal. You know, that's something that That's pretty personal. That's very personal as your age. But I'm saying generally though, like you don't, you have a kind of a policy. Why is that? What's the reason for the policy? First of all, is that like a well known thing now in the industry? No, it was in our notes. I didn't know it until now. And I was like, holy shit, that's good. Because I just, I just attacked someone for coming on our show and having a dating podcast and not revealing what they did for work. And I was like, it feels different to have a dating podcast where you're getting personal and not reveal what you do for work than it is to be a couple's therapist and say, I'm not going to talk about my marriage. I can, I can almost understand that. Yeah. But I wanted to hear what you had to say about it. I mean, it's interesting. I had to go through a very long process of like convincing the directors of the pro of the series for them to understand why it's important for me not to be like a person with a lot of personality and personal details on the show. The idea is basically to allow my patients, whether it's on the show or my actual patients in my private practice to like have the freedom to not have to worry about me, not have to have my personal details on their mind when they're exploring their own stuff. It's basically to free up some space for people to just do their own work. You know, when you know a lot of details about another person, you start thinking about them, caring about them, being concerned. I want people to feel free to just like do what they need to do and for me to be their therapist. And refraining from kind of indulging with your personal life is a very important aspect of it. OK. And then so, is it strange for your clients, I guess? Patience. Is it strange for your patients to kind of like be able to see you on TV while also like the ones who aren't on the show? I think for my private practice patients, me being suddenly like a therapist on TV, it's difficult. They're probably paying the biggest price for me having decided to do this. What type of price? I don't know if you guys have been in therapy, but you like to think of your therapist as your person, not like you're sharing them with a million other people and with, you know, you don't like your mom watching your therapist on TV and making comments. It's it's a lot of they have to share me. That's a good point. Yeah. Yep. Not great. You're like under the illusion that it's like almost that it's just that right. Person is yours. Yeah. I mean, in a way, the therapist is yours, but it kind of rubs your face in the fact that the therapist has more going on. Totally true. I can now that you're saying that I can imagine that must be. I've been in therapy for like 10 years and I like to think of myself as my therapist's favorite patient. Of course. And you probably are. I'm sure. I do say so myself. Are you surprised by the feedback that you get for the therapy that gets posted and kind of goes wild on TikTok? Cause that's all I'm aware of you. The show always looks like I got to watch that show. Like it's a great, what they, whatever TikToks you're doing. And I know Jordana is Jordana is a huge fan of the show. And I admittedly I'm, I just see your, your TikToks like just come up like crazy and I'm always drawn in and your demeanor is a big part of that. Like it's just, you're kind of letting these people go a little bit, which is not a normal thing as I don't let you go. Um, but like, were you surprised? Yeah, definitely. I was surprised, but I mean, I'm not aware of the whole TikTok world. I'm, I don't, I don't go on TikTok and I don't know what's going on there with me being on TikTok, but in terms of the success of the show, we've all been like very happily surprised. It was a big experiment launching this show, like both an experiment in terms of whether it's going to work at all in terms of therapy, whether people are going to feel comfortable enough to really go through the process of therapy, knowing that they're being recorded, but then how the world is going to see it and accept it. And it was like a big surprise early on how, how much love and gratitude we got. Um, now it's, we're almost a decade in, so I'm kind of spoiled. I'm used to it, but I, we do, we get a lot of love and gratitude from all over the world. It's pretty awesome. I mean, especially nowadays when it's like, you know, it's hard to be doing something good in this world. It's a good feeling. How did you get involved with like the project and the show? Was it your, like, was it your idea? How did, how did it? No, no, no, no, it was Josh and Elise's idea. Josh Kregman and Elise Steinberg, they, the directors and the EPs, um, they've been cooking this idea for a while. Um, and they reached out to me. I'm, I'm a, an academic. I teach at my psychoanalytic, uh, Institute and they found me through my Institute and reached out to me there. And I mean, first it seemed kind of like way out there and like, I don't know, but they, I just really hit it off with them. They're just such great people. So I just, just decided to take the leap of faith with them and turned out so awesome. Probably the best way to get found, you know what I mean? I, I, I don't, I don't think you want a therapist who's auditioning to do the show. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, I'm a big fan of the show. I think I started watching pre pandemic, um, in like 2019 and then, you know, watching the pandemic ones also was like its own interesting little like moment in time. But, um, what is like, is, I always wonder this because, you know, sometimes I, I watch a lot of reality TV and sometimes the couple in reality TV is going to a therapist and it's on camera. And I'm always wondering like, what are the ethics? Because it is such an intimate personal thing. Like what are the ethics of airing an actual couple's session? Like how does that play into it? It's a really good question because generally the ethics of my profession is, are I do not ever disclose anything about my work with patients ever except to my supervisors, but like, it's like a very strict frame of confidentiality. Like I don't get to talk to anyone about my patients. Like you can't gossip. It's, it's, it's really important to keep privacy. Like I'm a vault generally. Um, but when people sign up to do something like to participate in a film, then they give up on all of that. It changes the whole frame of the therapy, which is one of the things I wasn't sure would work. Do you get worried about like the, the patients that you're seeing that are on TV, like their mental health, if people get like come after them on TikTok or something or like, you know, things like that. Cause there's definitely, I mean, I've, especially from watching season one, I feel like there's definitely like a villain, even if that's not, you know, in the traditional sense. Right. And no people, we've had situations. I mean, most people, most of the participants get a huge amount of love from the world just for being willing to put themselves out there and people really identify with them. But once in a while, you know, people have this tendency to want a villain. And if people don't watch the whole, um, the whole season, if they just get stuck on the beginning of a season, they might decide, Oh, I'm going to hate on this person. I love hating on people. And that gets difficult for people. They, they, they couldn't, I mean, they, I know from couples that have reached out to us that they get suddenly like a thread of hate from the audience. And that's awful. I mean, I've actually gone on one of these like reddits or something, one of those I've gone on there to try to, um, defend some of my participants just because it's just so ridiculous, this online world. And people have this tendency, you probably know that way better than I do, but people have this tendency to just grab onto a villain, create a villain and kind of unleash a lot of their stuff. Right. I mean, the, the people on Reddit probably totally understood and took your feedback nicely and just moved on. Yeah. They have. Yeah. Okay. Not, not, well, I, that was kind of a question I was thinking about, you know, this show being on for so long and then seeing kind of the ticked off, tick talk, a vacation of things I know as a guy dating that that is something even, even though I live publicly and I have a podcast and put my life out there, do you find that that is something that a lot, I, I would say a lot of men are kind of fearful of in the relationship world that like there's this outlet for people to just go on and tell a story on from one side. And is that something you've noticed growing over the years, this like paranoia maybe that goes on for people in relationships? Meaning for what kind of life online it's going to take? What, yeah. What kind of, where it could go online, where the information could go. No, that's not, no. No, that's not been a thing. Right. But I don't, I guess that my patients are not, I don't know, I don't live in that world and somehow my patients don't seem to be living in that world. I mean, there are, there are other things where the online world, like, you know, like Israel, Palestine and all of that stuff. I mean, that's intense for a lot of people, but not stuff that's related to their love life. Interesting. So like, you know, you've been doing this, I guess, more than Jared's age, which is 41 years. So I haven't been doing that more than 41 years, but I've been doing it for, all right, near something close. Something in that range. Something close to there. Yeah. So can you tell from the first couple times or first time speaking to a couple if they're going to make it or not? Like, is there any kind of like huge thing where it's like, when I see this, I know it's just not working. Not from the first time. No, I mean, rarely. I mean, sometimes there's like, I mean, there can be such a gap in what people want from a relationship that it looks, you know, it doesn't look great, but usually it takes me quite some time to understand what a couple is dealing with. And what, I mean, they come in with one, I mean, usually people come in and they say they have trouble communicating. That's what everyone says. But you never know what that really means. And it takes me quite a while to understand what the couple is really dealing with because they don't even know. So I don't know early on. I mean, what I, I mean, sometimes when couples come in in a very toxic situation, like where they're really hating on each other. And if I can't get them to connect to a wish to be in a better place themselves, like a wish to have like a more benevolent attitude, if they're really kind of glued into vindictiveness, then it seems a little hopeless. But most people don't want to stay in that space. Right. And I would imagine most people were like, that's the case. What the per, one of the people would not even be willing to go to couples therapy. I feel like the people who, who, who agree to go are probably somewhat more open-minded. Self-selection. Yeah. Yeah. Ready to launch your business? Get started with the commerce platform made for entrepreneurs. Shopify is specially designed to help you start, run and grow your business with easy customizable themes that let you build your brand, marketing tools that get your products out there, integrated shipping solutions that actually save you time from startups to scale ups online, in person and on the go. Shopify is made for entrepreneurs like you. Sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com slash set up. We deal a lot with people who want to be in a relationship. We have a lot of people that are looking, you know, this is a modern dating, taking the technology and dating and kind of how those two relate to each other. And there's a lot of people just sitting at home. I want to find someone, you know, is there, is there something you wish people went into a first date thinking about or acknowledging or looking for asking about what, you know, looking for, you know, what, because I think people are looking for kind of tools, you know, when they go into a first date now, because they don't want to, they don't want to make the wrong move. And is there something that you, you would think of for people to like consider when they go on a first date with someone they're meeting from wherever? Yeah. I think one of the issues that I work with my patients on when they're in that kind of phase of dating, people often come into it either with this idea that they're the purpose of the date is for them to perform something, to perform set of the set of attributes that will make them. Gameable. And they, they don't go into it. Actually trying to get a sense of what they're feeling and what their experience is with the other person. You know, to me, like what people should be doing when they're dating is seeing how they, what the chemistry is like, what's, what's the interaction actually like and bring their best self, their true self and try to sense what it's like for their particular self to be spending time with that particular person. Meaning to look for something that is quite authentic. I mean, it's hard when you don't know someone, but to try to really get a sense of what's truly going on rather than putting like a set of attributes or seeking a set of attributes in another, right? The, the, to try to be authentic. What's a good question to ask someone if you're maybe looking to be authentic? It could be really anything. It could be anything like anything from like, you know, you started our interview with like, what's, what's today like for you? Right. It's a great question to add. I mean, it could go anywhere. Tell me about your day. Anything, but anything that will invite the person to really talk about what's really going on for them and who they are rather than a set of attributes and a set of attributes, do they match? Right. Is it hard for you when you're, when you're sort of engaging in like a couple's therapy, if you kind of, do you have a feeling like I kind of agree with this person, but you can't really say it? Rarely, rarely, because I mean, it can happen, but most of the time, you know, the difference between treating an individual and treating a couple is my patient, when I see a couple, my patient is the relationship. It's not the individuals, which is, I don't know if it makes sense, but it's a very different orientation. Right. You're like advocating for the relationship, not for like a side. Yeah. I'm not, not for one or the other. It's like each individual is just like a function to the patient that is the relationship. Right. So I don't, it doesn't, I don't, it might seem sometimes like I'm siding with one, but I'm siding with the relationship. I'm there to help the relationship get better. Right. And do you get like those classic TV tropes of like one of the people storming out, being like the therapist is, you guys are ganging up on me? Or does that not really happen? It doesn't happen. I mean, I know I can tell sometimes it doesn't happen so much on the series, but in my private practice, I can tell sometimes when one person feels like I'm not siding with them or like I don't like them, but it's usually kind of a temporary groove in the process. And then it goes back. I mean, if people really feel like I don't like them, then it's not going to work. Right. You don't want to be in, in a therapeutic situation where you feel like your therapist doesn't like you. That is not a good space. I'm sure, especially like with a couple, because you're kind of like, why would I go somewhere just to get, you know, attacked in their mind? I mean, there is this funny situation with couples. One of the typical situations that couples present with is that one is sort of louder than the other, or one is the complainer and the other is the defender. That makes a lot of sense. There's this kind of classic distribution. And sometimes, unfortunately, the louder one, the one that complains is the first person that I have to put a lot of pressure on to lower the volume so that the other person can come forth. So they often can feel a little bit like, oh, the pressure is on me. What about the other one? But I typically explain to them that that's what's going on. Do you ever sit with a couple and you're over months or whatever years are, do you ever look at them and go, you guys, you're done. Enjoy your life together? Is there ever, yeah? Totally. Yes. When is that? You're done like you're done with therapy, not like you're done as a couple. Yeah. You're saying. No, you're done with me. You're done with me. You're free now. Go enjoy each other. Go enjoy each other. How long does that take? I mean, I know that's, you know, like what I'm just saying, like. That's such a male question. I don't want to gender it, but that sounds like I feel like that's very male to be like, how many do I need to just finish? Well, that's the top of the mountain. I would assume that a lot of men going in, if they're, you know, pulled into this, I don't know what the, you know, the numbers are for you, you know, the, the split between who's pulling who in, you know, when it's a hetero couple, like, I don't know if there's a difference. No, no difference. No difference. Sometimes it's the men, sometimes the women, it's not. Then I would assume that the person getting pulled in, whoever that may be, might be like, well, when does this, how I would assume the, the, the, what they're worried about is that it's a never ending process where all you're going to find out is, you know, one hole leads to another hole leads to another hole leads to, you know, let me just go down this thing that tells me how fucked up you are. Yes. The people are afraid of that. Yeah. How do you talk to someone like that and let them know that there is, maybe, something, a light at the end of the tunnel? Very openly. I mean, I understand those kind of fears that people have and I talk about it explicitly. Yeah. And I get people to, to speak about their anxieties and I share honestly my experience. When you're afraid of therapy because you're avoiding stuff, it's going to, it's going to bite you at the end, whether you're in therapy or not, it's going to show up. So you might as well tackle it. And I explained to people that ultimately what happens in therapy is not like, you don't get shamed. You don't like find out, oh, how fucked up you are. You find out like what's bothering you and how do I make things better? It's not like a process of condemning people. It's a process of helping people. And generally that's what happens. People suddenly realize, oh, I'm actually their ally. I'm not there to like judge them or shame them. Right. I think, you know, probably a lot of, you know, my fear with any relationship I would get into would be not, not that I understand, you know, all you hear is, you know, relationships are hard. They're difficult. I guess like a lot of the things that I would want to know from someone, you know, from you, Dr. Orna would be like, you know, when you lifeguard, they say you want to do a lot of preventative lifeguarding. You don't want to have to save someone in the pool. Like I don't want to end up at Dr. Orna with my girlfriend or my wife, you know, like I, I want the no running at the pool advice, you know, like I want that's, and I would assume a lot of listeners now they're like, maybe tiptoeing around getting into something. Cause they're like, well, what if I end up at Dr. Orna and now I'm on camera crying and I'm on TikTok having to read comments about how I, you know, I'm too ugly for my girlfriend, you know, like I don't want to do that. That's like a horrifying future. That's horrifying. Right. What's your, what is your like, like I'm moving in with my girlfriend. She's going to move in to my apartment and it's going to become our apartment. Yeah. Let me speak. Cause they say, look at, I'm good at this. Your work here is done. Right. There we go. What is your no running at the pool advice for me? Good question. I like the analogy, no running at the pool. Thank you. I would say a few years, maybe, you know, done this a few times. And I'm going to talk specifically now about like moving in with someone. Please. Right. The general principle, what really helps relationships thrive is respect for the other person's difference. If I had to say like my one principle that I'm, I really think of when I work with couples and it's kind of the, the thread in my book as well as like, just you have to understand that relationships can bring you a lot of joy and happiness and satisfaction, but they really require you to accept the fact that you're living with another person and to try as much as possible to respect that. So make space for them in your apartment, accept their idiosyncrasies, the way they want to move around and the way they want to spend their time, like just have a lot of mutual space and respect. I think that's the, the main don't run around the pool. Be aware they're going to be different. And be okay with those different. Give them the space, give them the respect, like remind yourself, that's what I love about them. I'm not going to like try to make them like me. Right. Is that why a lot of people come to you to try to make their partners more like them? Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's probably the number one thing that goes on. Yeah. I mean, I guess when you have a disagreement with your partner, um, I think that's kind of like usually at the, at the heart of it. Yeah. And I mean, you said, you know, you tell couples your work here is done. And I've, you know, I've candidly, I've, um, I've done a few couples, um, sessions with my husband, um, you know, for various, and I think his sentiment has always has been a little similar to Jared's of like, how many sessions do we need? Like, let's, like, what's the, what's the time commitment here? But, and in my, you know, we're, buttold to that was always, was kind of like, this is something that, like, this is a tool that we have in our back pocket. It doesn't have to be like over. So like, if we have an issue, it's kind of, to me, it was kind of like, we have this person to help us work through issues and it doesn't have to ever be over. It doesn't have to be every week, but if we're ever having a misalignment on something or forever, not able to communicate on something or it doesn't feel like you're hearing what I'm saying, we can go back to this person. It doesn't mean we're going to be seeing this person every week for 10 years. But to me, it's like just a great thing that you have with someone who's kind of already knows you, knows, you know, knows what your deal is. You don't have to start from square one and you could just have them over the years as someone to check in with or work, work through things that you kind of seem to be at an impasse about. Yeah. I think that's a great way to use couples therapy. I mean, to go through a certain period of time where the therapist really gets to know you and you get to, you get to put language around your dynamic. And then once it gets easier to let go and stop therapy and if something comes up, go back. And sometimes it's go back just for a few sessions and you're done. You just need kind of a reminder or a little tweak. That's a great way to use couples therapy. Dr. Orna, how do you, you know, you, we were talking about, um, just respecting each other's differences. And it made me think of like, nothing makes me crazier than having a argument that it ends with. Agree to disagree. How do you feel about the phrase, agree to disagree? Cause that makes me like, that makes my, my core hurt. Like I, I, I shiver. What do you, but that's how I feel. Maybe I'm wrong. Well, often it's the problem is usually when people say agree to disagree, it's the, they're not really agreeing to disagreeing. They're just like exhausted from trying to change the other person. They don't really agree to disagree because I mean, it's a little bit, like I also don't like that statement, agree to disagree. And I don't like it is what it is. I mean, there are all these statements that people have when they're done thinking, when they can't just keep with the process and it is maddening. When you really agree to disagree, the, the disagreement doesn't end like that. It ends with, Oh, I totally understand why you, knowing you, why you feel that way. Makes sense to me. I'm in a different place and this is why I'm in a different place, but I understand where you're coming from. That is a real agree to disagree. But that's not what people usually mean. People usually mean I'm exhausted trying to change you and I'm just given up. Right. Totally. I love, I love that. I think that's very true because I, I agree that the sentiment behind it is real, but it's the people to kind of weaponize it. I also, it's funny, my friends and I always had a running thing about men who use it is what it is as like, it is what it is. What is that? It's like a douchebag flag, I think, personally. What is this? It's like any guy you would do it with. Let's stop thinking. Yes. Let's stop thinking right now. What would you say to someone? Yeah, I guess, what is the, if, if, if the weapon is, it is what it is or agreed to disagree, what's your next statement to like kind of like, what's the kung fu reversal? What do you come back with? Yeah. What can you say to like open up the conversation? Yeah. Like what's the move that kind of like takes that and diffuses that. If someone says agree to disagree, I would ask, well, okay, can you tell me what you agree with? Okay. What is it that you're agreeing with? What did you understand of what I'm saying that you agree to disagree with? Can I say that as someone who says agree to disagree, I think I will say it to someone when they are just like overpowering the conversation and kind of like feels like they're almost like yelling at me. Yeah. And so I'll be like, I don't want to engage. Like that's kind of like why you, why you would, I would say that if I'm speaking for myself, it's to kind of be like, I'm done with this. I don't, right. I don't really want to like get into this with you because it doesn't seem like you're trying to see my perspective. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a, it's a way to stop whatever is happening. It's not, it's not a real thing. So if I, if I said Dr. Orna, I want to eat chicken tonight and you're like, I want to eat steak. And then I'm like, I agree to disagree. And then you would ask me what I agree with. And I would say I would agree that your decision to want to have steak is disgusting. Like I, I'm playing this out. It's valid. You, you want to have steak, which I, I, I guess I would say I would understand that that's something you want, but you are not listening to what I want, which is chicken. Is that kind of what you would want to hear back? I guess that's slowing it down and softening the yelling. Is that kind of what it's doing? Let's say we're having this conversation. Let's role play. All right, let's do it. You want chicken. You want chicken. I want steak, which is actually disgusting. I agree with you, but let's pretend. Orna, I, I need to have chicken tonight. I can't have it any other way. I've been craving chicken all day. I want steak. You want steak? I want steak. Yeah, but I know, well, no, we need to have chicken. I need it. I've been thinking about it all week. I saw a commercial for Popeyes and it's been on my mind and it's all I can think about we're having chicken tonight. I want steak. Well, agree to disagree. Agree to disagree. We're having chicken. Oh, that's agreed to disagree. So you're basically like forcing me to have chicken. What's your logic? How do you force another person to have chicken? Right. I guess you don't know how much you want chicken is what I'm saying to you. You don't even, you, let me put on the commercial for Popeyes and let me see how you react to it. And if you're not in the mood for chicken after that Popeyes commercial, I just don't know if we can make it as a couple and maybe we should break up. Your way or the highway? Got it. Well, that's, that's the person where you would, I feel like that's the kind of person where you'd have to say agree to disagree so you could like plan your exit. So, okay. So my Tai Chi maneuver would be, all right, let me just understand the, the contract here between us. If we want to be in a relationship, I need to agree with your preferences. That's your idea of a good relationship. I just want to know what I'm signing up for. Right. Is it always going to go your way? Right. I guess, well, now you've gone a good way because I'm thinking of this role play and I'm like, okay, now we're talking about things that I'd have to like, have to own. Yeah. You know, like I'd have to own that every time I want chicken or make a decision, we go by my tastes and my, my cravings. I guy in, but then I guess the part where people get like really frustrated in relationships is someone does play it out. Like someone is so into their, like, how do you deal with someone who's so into that, to winning that they're not willing to, because I, I'm playing as we play this out. I'm like, well, then I would have to say, if I was really a piece of shit, I would have to go, yes, that's how I feel. I'm the dinner, dinner decider and my cravings rule the roost and we're going to have a roost full of chicken tonight and forever. You know, like I, do you know what I mean? Like I guess what do you do? Because then you, right. Yeah. In my mind, what you do then, and that's, that's kind of basically my training as a psychoanalyst comes in here is you, what you're doing, at least in the therapy, but people can do it on their own, is you're moving a little bit beyond the concreteness of chicken and steak. And you're talking about the, the contract of the relationship. What kind of, what is the contract there? Does one person on some implicit level believe that they're entitled to be the one dictating what's going on? And if they really believe that it's usually based on something, what is it based on? Is it based on patriarchy? Is it based on the fact that they're making more money? Is it based on the fact that that's how they were raised? Do they actually not really believe in that, but they're trying anyhow? Were they like, you know, the favorite, were they the favorite in the family? I mean, it's usually there's something going on there that they believe. Is it reasonable to base it off of every time you choose a dinner, you seem to hate it afterwards. And that's why I've taken the lead on dinner. Well, if you have something interesting, if you have some interesting feedback for your partner, then you talk about it. You say, okay, I don't, this is not what I'm proposing here. I'm not proposing that I will be the one deciding. I'm just giving you some feedback here about the fact that you, you, your decision-making process doesn't convince me because you decide on one thing and then you regret it immediately after. Let's talk about that. Right. It's the idea here is like you try to like expose what is the underlying thing that is discussed through the chicken and the steak. Right. And the, it is what it is. Interesting. That's, you know, what's beneath is what it is. What's beneath the agree to disagree. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have, I have one more question for you because I think we've, we've talked about this and it's also like, you know, a lot of our podcasts is like the way men think about things versus like the way traditionally men think about things versus the way traditionally women think about things. Do you feel like there's a point where it's like too early or too late to go to couples therapy? Like how soon into dating would you say it's kind of a red flag that you're even here? And let me add onto that. If I was dating someone and I was, if I wasn't engaged with someone and they brought up a couples therapy, I would immediately break up with them. I, and I'm saying that not, I'm just saying that would be. Company policy for me. And if someone wrote in, we're going to couples therapy, we're three months in, I would be like, end this. Why would anyone do this? This is crazy. So I, and I'm saying that willing to be told, please tell me I'm a big interest in you. That's why we have a, we have a professional here. I'm, I will, do you agree with that? Like that's a male, that's definitely a male mindset to me, but. I, by the way, just so you know, after all these years of living and practicing, I don't really fully think there's a male versus female mindset. Really? I think there, there. Yeah. I think there are little superficial differences, but I think at the core, I don't really see a difference. Maybe it's what I hear more, I guess, from the men that anecdotally, not, you know, not as a non-clinician. Right. Well, also you're getting people electing to come to you too. Like, like it is a big decision to go to therapy and go to a couple. Like I have a lot of respect for the decision made as a couple. Like you, you're, you are working together if you're at couples therapy, like at a certain point. But there are plenty of men that pressure their, their girlfriends or wives to go to therapy. Sure. I, but, but girlfriends, like. Well, yeah, well, I know. Who are these losers? Too early, too late. Yeah. I actually agree with both of you. I think there is a too early and there is a too late. Okay. I think if you're starting a relationship and you're immediately like, let's get a therapist in, it's like, why, what's the insecurity? Like what, I mean, you haven't even formed a relationship. What is the therapist going to do? Right. I mean, three months in that there's no relationship yet. It's, it's too early. I agree. It seems to me more a matter of insecurity than, I mean, if you're at three months in, you're already having impossible arguments. Right. You can't work through that. That's fair. Yeah. That's, well, what about like a year in two years in? Yeah. Once, once two years in, I mean, once like there's a real pattern that's forming that you don't know how to get out of. That's when it would be a good idea to bring in someone else, but you have to like really have established like a real pattern that you've tried to make your way out of not everyone needs therapy. When it's too late. Sometimes it's too late when too much bitterness and misery has accumulated. And, and people just become so hopeless and so entrenched. It can be too late. Like the love can dry out, which is very sad. Right. That's the saddest. I mean, like that's, that's really sad. Love can dry out. I mean, you should turn into merch. That'd be fun. A hat, love dried out love. Where would you wear that? I don't know. Give it to them as they break up on their way out. They can take their t-shirts. Yes. Consolation price. I will, because a lot of this, you know, it's funny because like, you know, Jordan and I get this, should I go, should I not thing? And you're, you're getting probably later in the process. Yeah. I'm definitely later in the process, but like, you know, I think a lot. And again, from me, I'll speak for myself, you know, going on a date, when I would go on a date, there was so many insecurities I had about like the future and wanting to not mess it up. I don't want to end up as much as I would love to, you know, meet you, Dr. Orna. I don't want to end up at Dr. Orna. That's like my number one fear is like, oh my God, I'm going to have to spend hours a week, you know, discussing my inner traumas and stuff. I don't want to do that. Well, may I protest? Okay. Coming to Dr. Orna, any Dr. Orna, not just me, is not like the worst thing in the world. Okay. I mean, people do not suffer terribly in couples therapy. Some people actually like it and come out. Yeah. On the other side. Yeah. You get, you get to talk about things that matter to you. They wouldn't want to go on vacation instead. It can feel a little bit like a vacation. Okay. It can. No, I understand that. You're right. It's not a bad experience to be in couples therapy. But the need to go. I actually think the healthier, a lot of the healthiest couples are in couples therapy. It's almost like the opposite of what you would think. Yeah. Because those are the people who are actively working on their relationship. It's like the people who are the, who are the most physically fit people aren't the people who never go to the gym. Right. They're the people who are in the gym all the time working on their physical fitness. I guess, well, I guess, do people do that then? I, you know, to, to take it all back. Um, because I, I'm willing to be the buffoon idiot. Do people, are they like doing it like the gym where they're like this kind of preventative, like, do you meet people who are like, don't need couples therapy, but they're like, we're just kind of here for a tune up. I would like to think of it not as a gym, but as like taking a walk, you know, the gym, you know, as people do these little routines, it's not a gym. It's like you take a walk together with me. I mean, that would be the analogy and you see new things along the way. But some people do spend more time in couples therapy just to have a space where they're exploring things. That would be a great business idea. Dr. Orn, I live in Delray Beach. There's a path that's about 2, 2500 steps that goes along the beach here in Delray. If you could just sit, stand there at the beginning of the path and be like, here, you can Venmo me and I'll take this walk with you as a couple. Even if things are like, I think people would do that. Even if things are okay. I think the biggest issue with a couple therapy from my angle is bringing it up. Like if I'm in this loving relationship and I, I'm having like right now I'm with someone and I'm having the honeymoon phase and enjoying myself. But like if I just saw you on that path and I was like, hey, you want to just like take a whirl, you know, we'll take Dr. Orn for 2500 steps. I think that would be like a little bit easier. Actually very cute. That could be a good TV series. Wouldn't that be? I think you're right. Now we're in business together. Yeah. What if we started a production company from this? No, I do know what I mean. Like I think that's the hardest. Take a walk with a doctor. Walk with doc. Oh, now we got a heart too. Holy shit. Okay. I do think that's the hardest part because like, do you think how do you bring that up in a great relationship? We should do couples therapy. You just do. Let's go talk to someone. We're having trouble here. We're kind of stuck. Let's just go talk to someone. I think I have a great relationship and I brought it up. And I think, you know, because like I think the idea that you'll never go through anything as a couple, if you plan to be together for a long, in a long term relationship is kind of crazy. It's like no one gets by without way. Right. Yeah. And so for me, I mean, I had, we had many years of like fertility struggles and like there were points where we did could not agree and could he, I didn't feel like understood and he didn't feel like he was understanding me. And I think it's like, to me, it's like, here's this person who can help facilitate this conversation. So it feels like you're understanding what I'm saying and I can understand what you're saying. Yeah. Who's a trained professional. That's how I would bring it up. Maybe it's a good one year anniversary gift. Like a check-in. I mean, a check-in. So like, you know, you know, those like coupons that are like one massage, you know, it's just one. I mean, I'm a homeowner. You so are you now. And like there's yearly maintenance you have to do for like your air conditioning filters. Like shouldn't there be that for the thing that's like the crux of like your analogy. I don't like that analogy. You're not into my analogy. You don't like mine. You don't like the gym. You don't like the air conditioning. I don't like the gym. I don't like the air conditioning. I mean, this is serious business. What would you like in it too? Let's read a book together. You see it as more of a. It's like a mind expanding thing. It's not like a maintenance. Okay. It's it's an expansion. It's like you're going on a voyage. It's it's. You see it more like doing shrooms together than. Yeah, exactly. A yearly trip like. Yeah. A yearly trip. I get that. More like that. All right. I mean, a date night is seen as relationship maintenance. Is it not? I don't why maintenance? Because it's like I think of it as like a like a living breathing thing that needs to be tended to. It's fun. It's fun, but it also, you know, you can be a lot more ambitious than maintenance. Maybe that's maybe that's a bad word. Right. Investment. I don't know what's the. No journey. Journey. No, not optimization, not in that investment, not ROI. Jordan is a CEO. She's a founder. This is how she thinks. Yeah. So I think optimization, efficiency, efficiency. This is not this is not a business model. I want to make sure that I've, you know, upleveled. Right. No. So you genuinely, Dr. Orna, see that your therapy can make a couple go from wherever they are to unbelievable. Yeah. Like that's to you. That's a better way to sell couples therapy than we need maintenance. Is we need to change the air, the air conditioner filters. Yeah, we need the filters. Yeah. I'm not selling couples therapy or keep putting this language that I'm like, no. We're trying to be to push some more capitalism into what you're doing. I know you are. You're like, you're optimizing and merchandising. It's a good idea. Okay. Dr. Orna, before we go, this is great. It's a pleasure to meet you. We've been wanting to meet you. So this has been a true pleasure and this was really fun. Thank you. So happy you could come and everyone go check out couples therapy. The new season of couples therapy is out May 15th. The show is out now series premieres with all new episodes on the Paramount Plus premium plan on May 15th. So Paramount Plus premium plan, go check out couples therapy. Um, I wanted this idea because we, we just get so many people. So many people. Let me speak for me myself. I, I would get my head about going on a date. You know, you have this thing between people telling you, should go on versus do I want to go on? And then something happens and you're like, I just don't want to go anymore. So this is called go or no. Okay. Okay. You ready? Dr. Orna. I like that. Okay. Go or no. Let's see. I don't know. You're attracted to them, but you can't stand their career. Do you go on the first date or no? Go. Go. Why? Cause you're attracted to them. So you think attraction is attraction means a lot. Yeah. Attraction is like, physical attraction is a lot. I think that's, that's good. Do you think someone can date someone that's not their type? What do you mean? They're type. If they have a physical attraction to a general type of physical type, physical type. Do you think someone can make it with someone that's not their type? Yeah. I think those things change. Yeah. When you get to know someone, your type changes. Okay. What if you're not attracted, but they, everyone says they're really, they're very nice. I would give it a small chance. You would go. What's a small chance? I would go. I would go for one more date. Okay. Well, Dr. Orna, thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it. We want everyone to go check out couples therapy on the Paramount Plus premium plan, May 15th. And Jordan, we solve dating again with Dr. Orna. We did it. We'll be back next week. Bye. Boom.