You are Losing 27 Years to this... - Robin Thurston

Welcome to the Proven podcast where it doesn't matter what you think, only what you can prove. Our guest today is Robin Thurston, CEO of Outside Interactive, Inc. A technology and media executive who has built and scaled digital platforms. By combining data, community and outdoor lifestyle brands into powerful business ecosystems, Robin has proven that strategic innovation and audience driven platforms create lasting competitive advantage. The show starts now. Hi everybody. Welcome back to the show. Robin, I'm really excited to have you here.

0:00

Thanks so much for having me.

0:27

For the four or five people who don't know who you are, let's give them an idea. Who are you? What have you done?

0:29

My name is Robin Thurston. I'm the CEO and founder of Outside Interactive. Outside is a platform to help people get outdoors. That's really the core mission, premise and sort of vision we have around the organization is we just want people spending as much time as they possibly can in the outdoors. But I've been in sort of tech and sort of health my whole life. I started very young in cycling. I sort of came up through the national team system and went to Europe and raced and then spent a bunch of years in finance and then started my first company in health and wellness, Map My Fitness in 2005. And we just got really, really lucky and we had two of the first hundred iPhone apps in the app store in July of 2008. And those apps did incredibly well. I was able to sell that business to Under Armour more recently bought that business back from Under Armour. So I own that business back outside again. Matt My fitness we bought back from them last year and then I ran a consumer genetics company in between after I left Under Armour because I had a non compete and then wanted to get back into the outdoors. And so I started Outside Interactive. I started acquiring distressed media assets. I started, you know, putting other parts of this puzzle that we're building together really to inspire people, you know, ultimately activate them and then have them celebrate what they're doing in the outdoors.

0:36

So there's a lot that you talk about what you did publicly, what you don't talk about privately is you give people statistics that make themselves pee on themselves for about the last two, three weeks. Because when we had our first call, we first connected. You gave me a statistic that terrified me because we all know that we spent about a third of our life sleeping, which we get that. And I have tried to slim that down as much as I can. God bless. Being an insomniac, which is not healthy. Don't do it, kids. But you gave me Another statistic that made it even worse. So can you give and ruin it for everyone else as well? What is that other statistic that we're talking about?

2:00

Well, unfortunately, a child born today is going to spend about 30 years on a screen. You know, and I think that is really mind boggling when you think about it. I mean the average American is spending seven to eight hours a day on a screen. The, you know, kids are only getting four to seven minutes a day outdoors. You know, across the US and you know, this has resulted in a whole bunch of health impacts like myopia, which used to be, you know, less than 20% of the population is nearing 50% of the population because people aren't staring out into the horizon, they're not spending time outdoors adjusting their eyes to looking at something like the horizon. But then you have really serious health impacts like, you know, certainly, you know, mental health right now. I think globally, I don't, I don't think you can talk about it. Just in the US is, you know, really, really in a bad state. And I, I believe that that's been primarily driven by people on screens. Social media, mobile, all of these things have had this impact to us as, as humans.

2:34

It, that when you told me that statistic originally, it, it shocked me. We spent a conversation amongst my group that we've been talking about for a while and one of the guys came in, we talked about it. When Einstein died, they dissected his brain and the main thing they found is that he had more folds or for those of you playing at home, wrinkles in his brain. And they said, well this, this must be something that leads to more intelligence. We find that when we dissect intelligent brains that they have more folds, they are normally more intelligent. And we're finding with children now that, and this isn't direct causation, but there's less folds the more time you spend on screens and that might be because you're sleeping a third less or you're, you're, you're dopamine hits or whatever it is. So I'm not saying screens, if you stare at them are going to make your brain smooth, but it's all the habits that go in with it. So when you talk about getting outside, it isn't just a cure all for that as much as the screen is the main issue. It's all the habits that come with it. Am I, am I close on this one?

3:39

Yeah, I mean, you know, even something like, you know, taking your shoes off and walking in the grass like this isn't you don't have to go to like a big hike or, you know, some massive adventure. Just taking your shoes off and walking in the grass will reduce your blood pressure in 15 to 20 minutes. Right? So just literally connecting to the planet through the, you know, basically the ground will have a material impact on you. And I think, you know, if you look at, you know, all of the, and there's things like in Japan they call it forest bathing, you know, where you're just out in nature, you know, now there's a, you know, sort of trending on TikTok is like touch grass, you know, this idea that never in human history have we spent as much time indoors as we do right now, ever. And I think that people are realizing that, you know, we are part of this planet. Like literally we have the same makeup and fundamentals from a DNA perspective as, you know, other creatures and other, you know, certainly other people and humans on this planet. But we are connected to it. And I don't, and I don't think that in our current society that recognition about what it means to, you know, really touch grass means for people on a day to day basis and just how important it is. But I fundamentally, if you look at some countries like Sweden and Canada are starting to issue prescriptions for outdoor time, doctors are prescribing it. And I think that that's a real, you know, I think testament to important it is for us as a society to spend some of our time outdoors.

4:33

So when you're talking about going outside, this isn't because I know you're, you're an avid cyclist and we were going to do this on a bike, just didn't work out right now. Well, we'll do this next time. Next time we'll do it on the bike and I'll just huff and puff the whole time. So I have to prep for like six months. So when, when you're talking about this, you're not talking, you know, I'm a triathlete, you're not talking. Be a triathlete, you're not talking. Get out there, hoff it out there. You're literally talking about, take your shoes off, go outside, stand for 20 minutes.

6:12

Yeah. I mean, and, and you know, I think there are things, really simple things, like one of the things that during COVID was that there was sort of a pet boom. You know, people got a lot of dogs, right. And that meant that they had to walk them. And that is frankly very good for you. There's the, the, the process of taking your dog out for a walk and whether that's a mile or that's two mile and it's relatively slow, it doesn't matter. You don't, again, you don't be a hardcore. What might be sort of visually considered somebody that's, you know, an outdoors person. Right. I think it's just more, you know, being outdoorsy, like just wanting to go out and, you know, breathe the fresh air and, you know, connect, you know, in a, in very, very simple ways.

6:39

What are the ways that, you know, you're, you're full of these statistics that make me lose sleep. So thank you for that. What are some of the ones that are more positive? Are there things like, you know, we've talked about you're going to be inside. We're moving away from these little tablets, these little bricks, and we are going towards glasses based. That's just. I was talking to a guy from Google, deep fake and he's like, yeah, phones are, it's over. Phones are not going to be here anymore. They're all going to be glasses and it's all going to be, you know, basically HUDs or heads up display. We're heading towards this. So we know screens and tech isn't going away and we know that telling people that it's never going to happen, deal with it, it's tech. What are the ways that you can, when you are stuck inside that you can mitigate some of this?

7:25

Well, I mean, obviously we're not suggesting that every minute of activity that positively impacts you has to be outdoors. You know, I mean, you just said you're in five inches of ice. Right. So, you know, I would still advocate, you know, a treadmill, you know, run or walk, you know, jumping on an indoor bike. You know, certainly strength training is, you know, really has proven to be one of the most critical things that you can do to, you know, extend not only longevity but just like the quality of life. Right. Just that. And especially, you know, after 50, I think it's so important. And all those things are things that you can do indoors. You know, then there are other, you know, sort of, you know, very, I think, very easy things that, you know, people wouldn't necessarily consider exercise. Things like you know, just even, you know, meditation of some form. Right. Everybody has a different form and version of that. But just to, just to calm your mind, right. To not be looking at the screen and staring at it, you know, you know, sort of constantly switching from one screen size to the next. You know, whether you go from your phone to your laptop to your tv, whatever it might be. And, you know, the positive statistics are, you know, pretty clear. I mean, I mentioned, you know, just 30 minutes outdoors will lower your blood pressure. You know, basically you can see for just 30 minutes outdoors, you can see a 45% increase in productivity. And the way, the way that, to me, that's measured. Like, if you think about, you know, during the day, I don't know about you, but I. I spend some of my day, you know, on phone calls rather than zoom, just going for a walk while I'm talking to someone, rather than zoom. Because I know that when I get back, I'm going to be more productive, more mentally alert if I've been outside, you know, walking around for that 30 minutes with someone on the phone, rather than being on zoom all day long for seven, eight hours, you know, staring at people. Right. And so I think the other, the other big thing that, you know, look, I know there are some people in the world who think that they're going to get off of this rock called Earth. I don't think I will be off of this rock. I think I'm going to be here my whole life. And I think that one thing about being in nature that's very positive is I think that people, you know, quickly realize that they are part of it and that they want to take care of it. And I think that's another big, you know, thing that we see when, when, whether it's kids, whether it's adults spend time in the outdoors, they just feel a greater connectivity and think about things like sustainability a lot more than if they aren't spending time outdoors.

8:05

So I think it's beyond just that as well. And you're a very successful entrepreneur. You mentioned that you went back and you bought your business back, and you've done these things. How have you integrated this? Because I agree with you, I will schedule entire blocks of time where I'm like, I'm going to get my steps in. There's no way around. I'm getting my steps in every day. Even if there's five inches of snow or solid ice outside. Kershaw, Lexington, Kentucky, I'm going to get it in. When you're doing this, how have you integrated this into your org? How are you doing this when you're. You're setting up in senior command, and how does that work for you?

10:44

Well, I mean, I think first on a. On a personal level, and I think this really does extend out to, you know, not only my direct team, but how I think about the, the flexibility that we have as an organization to do these things. But at personal level, I think a lot I. For those of your listeners and viewers that know about sort of finance and how dollar cost averaging works, it's probably one of the most powerful things in investing that has ever been created, right? Like you put a dollar away a week and then all of a sudden, 20 years from now you look up and because you put it in, whether you put it directly in Google or you put it in some other stock or whatever you put it in, you're sort of surprised at the compounding effect of that, right? Well, health and wellness is really similar. You can't cram, right? Like, you know, what I'd call like, you know, somebody, you know, let's say you're in a run, a marathon. If you try to train two weeks before the marathon, I mean, you're not going to have a great event, right? You have to lead in and build into it. And so the way that I think about fitness and, you know, you just said you just got done, you know, being active, I just got, you know, done off the bike is that I, I personally try to do it early in the morning when I'm certainly fresh, cognitively fresh, you know, and kind of can feel like I'm in sort of a meditative state, whether that's indoors or outdoors. And again, you know, then during the day, like, how do I take not necessarily breaks where I'm sitting around, you know, maybe, you know, eating something, but like where I'm actually out doing something, right? Another thing that's been proven is like even a 20 minute walk after you eat is really, really critical, right? For just your whole digestive system and everything. And so those are some of the things when I think about personally, how to keep that consistency going, right? Like, how do you just keep thinking about paying yourself first rather than all of the other things in your, you know, sort of, you know, your ecosystem, you know, whether it's your family, whether it's work. When it comes to outside, I mean, one is we have, you know, 15 national holidays. Two of those happen to be outside days for the staff. One is in the spring, one is in late summer where we actually give the day off for team to spend time, you know, going to do something that could be skiing, cycling, whatever it might be. We are, you know, a company that does flexible time away, which means the ultimate flexibility for employees to choose when they are going to take a break. And, you know, so we don't mind if someone's out, you know, doing something at Lunch and then they're back for meetings, you know, and then, you know, certainly we lean in with like benefits, you know, sort of residual stipends for people to get, like things like gym memberships or equipment or things like that as part as of the overall sort of benefits of the company, you know, and then obviously, you know, my view is that luckily for our team that, you know, we have about 400 people that are spending all of their time thinking about also how to get other people outdoors. So often they get inspired themselves, right? They see visuals, they're telling a story, they're doing something, they're at an event and they're like, well, I want to come back and do this, or I want, you know, I'm going to tell friends about it. So I think that we have set the company up in a way that really gives people the latitude to be able to think about outdoor time and how they think about their health and wellness. Not saying we don't work hard, we have lots of goals and KPIs just like any company. But ultimately, I think our team is very aligned with what we're trying to do for the customers that, you know, connect with our platform.

11:16

I think there's a blueprint there that a lot of founders are a little nervous about when they go through and they have this conversation and they look at it like, hey, I see what he's saying. I want to do this, this makes sense. But how do I tactically do this? What is the ROI that happens off this? If I'm going to sit there and I'm going to give my team the ability to do A, B, C, D, whatever it is, what is the ROI that happens with this? How does the culture change? How do we handle that along with integrating AI into this? Because now with AI, it's, I think there's two very specific camps. There's the fear mongering, oh, my God, this is going to purge everything. We're all going to die. And then there's a holy shit. This is really just going to, performance wise, radically increase our roi. So I think that's the kind of divide when you're doing this. Is there a specific ROI you could talk about that has come from giving people this? So other founders are like, okay, and then also teaching other founders how to do this and how to integrate this into their systems?

14:50

Yeah, I mean, I think if you, again, if you go back to something like the very basic research around productivity, just like if people do this, that they are going to be more productive. I think that's at least for me. Why, when we talk about it with the team or, you know, when we put certain benefits in place, like, I really lean back onto those statistics. But then ultimately, you know, we're fully remote. All 400 people. Like, we have a few small offices, but we are fully remote. And, you know, I look at. At, you know, last year's performance and, you know, if I look at us as. As an organization, I mean, it was our. We were up, you know, 23% year over year. You know, we were for. It was the first time. As for our organization, you know, we're well over $100 million in revenue. And, you know, it's first time for our organization to be profitable. And so to me, I guess the main thing I would say is that at the, you know, the flexibility that we provide and give people the latitude as well as, you know, celebrate the fact that we want people to spend time outdoors, ultimately for us has translated into success for the business. Now, you know, Charles, I'm a typical entrepreneur. Things could always be better, right? I could always, like. But I do think it's a balance. And, you know, I don't know. There's so many, you know, we went through this phase, if you think about the workplace where everybody was like, you know, work, life, balance is so important. And, you know, I would say that to me, it's kind of like. Like building a company is kind of like, you know, whether it's running a marathon or doing a major event, it's like there are periods where you are at rest. You are out doing the things that make you feel good. And there's other periods where you are going very hard, right? You are pushing yourself to improve. And I think that, in my mind, is the way to build a company. And, you know, the other thing I say to entrepreneurs all the time, Charles, is like, don't forget to celebrate, like, the one thing. And I wouldn't say I'm necessarily good at it. And I haven't been in building companies before, but now I think about it a lot. It's like when you have moments of success, make sure that your team knows that those are moments of success. Because if they don't, they get sort of trained to just think that it's everyday life, and then they're not really, you know, sort of raising those moments up and saying, wow, that's something that we want to do again, right?

15:41

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a. It's a curse of being an entrepreneur. We're constantly thinking, this could be better. And what's next? Because we just grind and grind and grind. It's like, hey, you've, I remember I had, I became a Wall Street Journal seller. I was like, huh? And I was with my aunt Monk, who like, this is amazing. I'm like, yeah, but it's not nyt. And they're like, what the hell, man? And I was like, but I want nyt. It just became this, this constant loop when you're hiring people. So I love that you, because we have transitioned to this and we are in, you know, an extinction level event for employees the way that it used to be. They're just, things are changing with AI, we know this, but people are having a hard time hiring for individuals who can be productive at home. Because it's a mind shift, right? We went from, no, you have to be here, I have to physically touch you. We have to be in meetings. And then Covid got rid of that, and then the entire global workforce became everywhere. Now we're in the situation where people are like, how do I hire the people, hold them accountable? How do I get them to show up in a way that we can hit $100 million? Because you're completely remote. You guys are doing $100 million a year for most founders, most business owners. And like, we didn't think that was possible. So you're, you know, one of the myths again. This is why I wanted to have you on here. You keep people's minds with what's possible and also what's happening. Terrifying statistic. Still. What are, what are the ways that you hire? How do you do this where you're like, hey, I know this person. I know Bob, Susie, Jimmy, whatever it is they're going to execute at home even if I give them all this freedom. How have you found a way to process that?

18:03

Yeah, I mean, I, I, one is I, I really believe in people, and I really believe in people. You know, even what I'd call in a, in a, you know, as AI starts to permeate more and more, I still think the humans are essential in this ecosystem. That includes technology. Right. But I, I, I really, I mean, there's a couple things. One is I think you have to find people that are incredibly curious. Like, that's something like when I'm, when I'm interviewing people and I don't get to interview everyone that we hire now, but a lot of them I do. And, you know, I really try to understand, like, is this person naturally curious? Are they, you know, thinking about not only the world around them, but like how they can improve themselves. And some of that might be from, you know, the activities they do. Some. Some might be in terms of the discovery and education that they do on their own. But that, but that's really important. And then I think for us, it's like, you know, really understanding how invested this person is in thinking about, you know, whether they're building a product for us, they're writing content for us, they're, you know, whatever function they're in, you know, frankly, I don't care if it's in finances. Are they really behind our mission and thinking about ways that we are going to transform, you know, sort of these current statistics. Statistics into new outcomes? Right. And, you know, so I would just say that it's hard. You know, I. We, once a quarter, we're trying to get the teams together. The teams have budget to do, you know, basically, you know, call them off sites, on sites, whatever you want to call them into areas where, you know, a grouping of people get together. But like, I just got back from one in Tucson for our maps team and, you know, we were together for two and a half days. We did two big hikes together. Like, everybody was out there, you know, really using the tools and understanding, you know, looking at it from a discovery and recording perspective. But it also was a real social bonding moment when you're out there hiking. That then makes the rest of the interactions that you're having even easier. Right? Like whether it's in a conference room, whether it's, you know, out in other settings. And so I do think it's really important in a remote culture that you reserve the budget, even over hiring the next person, reserve the budget that allows you to get together in person. And it's something, you know, frankly, we've struggled with the times, but we're, you know, this year it's really important and high up in, you know, sort of our goal list for how the teams are going to interact this year.

19:26

So getting together, having them play together, there's team building exercises. But how do you measure curiosity? Because I haven't had someone talk about this before in the hiring process. How do you measure if they're curious? Because I measure effectiveness. I measure speed, I measure are they intelligent enough? Can they find the answers? Because for me, it's always out into outfasting, which is either either find a way or make a way. I'm going to figure this out. That's something that I always look for. I'm like, here's a problem that I know you don't know the answer to, because no one knows the answer to. What do you do? Now? That's always the litmus test I use. When you talk about curiosity, what is the litmus test do you use for that?

22:03

Well, I think, again, I think as you're talking to candidates, how they ask questions, how they think about a problem, how much maybe discovery that they've done on their own. That could be things like travel, that could be local discovery. It could be any number of things. It could be how sort of engaged they've gotten in a certain activity. And that doesn't necessarily need to be, you know, an outdoor activity, but any activity. Like, how have they learned about that? How much studying did they do around it? How curious were they about that subject, or was it just surface? Right. And I do think it's hard. It's very hard to measure. It's very hard. You know, it's much easier to measure, you know, whether it's like, you know, looking at somebody's experience, like, okay, they had X number of years at this company, did this thing, you know, and the same is true of other work that they've done. Like, when you start to ask people about the work that they've done, like, how deep do they go into that question, like, how naturally sort of curious are they about the subjects or the tasks that they were given, even at prior roles?

22:39

So when you get curious about certain things, one of the things I'm curious about is what outdoor activities have you seen that have the best roi? What are the statistics that show abc? Because again, as a triathlete, I love running, but I'm going to miss my knees when they're gone. So I've had to stop running. And the bike's okay, but I've found that swimming is just. It's home for me. It's what I love more than anything else. I just get in the water and just put my head down and rock and roll. And now there's waterproof headphones, so I can actually listen to a bunch of things when I'm going, or I just Zen out. I adore swimming more than. More than I could possibly tell you. But what are some of the things that you found? Because again, this is. This is what you do. This is what outside does more than anything else. You guys study this, and you guys are curious about these things.

23:47

I mean, what are the ones that you recommend? There are categories that are, like, exploding right now. Like, you know, if you look at something like trail running and gravel cycling, they've absolutely exploded. Right. I Mean, I know this sounds funny. Like disc golf is on fuego, right? Like, you know, certainly, you know, pickleball. Like, you know, if you look at the growth of pickleball, all the out and all the outdoor pickleball courts, right. I think what you said, Charles, is maybe the most important thing, which is you started with something like triathlon and you got to experience three different types of activities, right? And you found one that absolutely like you is your, you know, whether you want to, you know, your, your sort of Zen, your spiritual moment. It's like you can get into that and just be super focused without the noise, right? And I think that's the most important thing. It's like if you're, if, if you're hiking and you're just looking at your phone the whole time, which by the way, is hard outdoors, there's a reason it's hard outdoors to actually look at your phone with your sun bouncing off of it. But if you're just looking at your phone the whole time, that might not be your Zen activity, right? So it might make sense to like, try some other things. And again, that could be something more social. Like if you look at the explosion with run clubs right now, maybe you need a run club to like, keep you motivated and keep you focused while you're out there. Other people, it might just be as simple as walking out your back door and doing a two, you know, two mile walk, right? And that might be a moment where you can disconnect from everything. So I think the big thing that I say to people is like, yeah, for me, it's cycling. It always has been since I was a little kid and I was lucky to find it early. But like, try things and try to find that thing that's going to create what you just said, which is that very Zen moment for you, that is sort of something that you can retain.

24:31

And I think when you're finding your Zen moments. One of the reasons I like swimming so much is you can't lie. Because if I'm walking, I can turn. I'm like, I can, I can half ass it. Or if I'm cycling, I can do, especially on triathlons. I mean, as long as you can sneak the motorcycle in and the, the officials don't think it's a bike, you're fine. But you can't do that with swimming. Swimming is one of those rare opportunities that if you try and half ass, you drown down it. Just if you're like, oh, I don't want to kick anymore, you're going to get you better figure this out really quickly. That's why I love swim. And I'm not. I'm not hauling, but I've one of those endless pools that just keep. It's like a treadmill, basically, in water. And I love them, but it keeps me focused, and I have to be completely centered in my body of what's going on. And I just. I'm very lucky.

26:24

It's interesting. A lot of. I'm not. I'm not a big climber, Charles. I'm not a big, like, rock climber. But people say exactly the same thing about rock climbing that you. Because literally, if you fall, you're in big trouble, right? You are so zeroed in and focused. Right? Whereas, like, there are other activities like walking, running, and cycling. I agree with you there that you can sort of zone out a bit right now. Hopefully you're not doing that in traffic and, you know, other places. But, you know, I. I mean, but I totally hear what you're saying about swimming, which is you will sink to the bottom, or you will just literally put your feet down and you're done, because otherwise you're not going anywhere.

27:06

And the reason I added in, you know, waterproof headphones was because it gave my brain something to chew on sometimes. Because there are times where my brain's like, okay, I've been staring at water. Can we do something else, please? And I'll just feed an audiobook. And I'm like, all right, whatever. Buddy of mine, he carved out the bottom of his pool and he put a TV there. So he'll sit there and watch, you know, YouTube or any whatever it is while he's swimming with his. And he just sit there and just watching it as he's going. I'm like, that doesn't count, dude. That doesn't count. What are you doing? He's like, I gotta do it for an hour every day. I gotta do something. I was like, God bless you, man. God bless you. You've also done something that a lot of people haven't done. You've acquired a bunch of assets or a bunch of companies that were. Or marketing that were. That were failing. Can you walk me through that? That's something I didn't know prior to having this conversation. When you go in and you're acquiring things that are not as optimized as one would think, how do you evaluate those, and how do you make sure that you then integrate them into your folder of business?

27:48

Well, I mean, to be clear, the. The many. I mean, there was two reasons why we ended up looking at sort of things that were distressed. One is that, you know, I, I knew, I mean, we have five brands that are older than 50 years old, right, that like Ski magazine is over 80, Warren Miller is almost 80, climbing is over 50, Velo's over 50, outside's over 50. But, you know, the media business, forget about more recently with AI, even more stress because of what's going on with AI. But the media business has been in sort of a secular decline really since, you know, I would say mobile and social came out, right, like just, you know, new ways for people to get information. So, but, but the brands had a lot of equity in them and a lot of, you know, big libraries, great stories that were, you know, part of these platforms and we had to make really hard decisions. There was one. One of the ideas of bringing multiple media businesses together was to create scale, which in turn allowed us to switch from, you know, being one primarily advertising, but advertising within what we would call an endemic category. People like North Face and REI and Specialized Bicycles used to be the advertisers of the outside, you know, sort of brands, right? Today our largest advertisers are autos and they're travel companies and they're insurance companies. So we've diversified away from being really, really dependent on the core outdoor category. Those people, of course, are still advertisers. But the other big thing that we had to do was we had to switch from, you know, really being dependent on advertising to being more dependent on reoccurring revenue streams. And so we've gone from at one point, you know, more than 70% of the business was in advertising, and I would argue More than 85% of the business was in non reoccurring businesses. Today of our revenue, 40% is advertising, 60% is in reoccurring either SaaS businesses or subscription businesses. And we had to make that transition. But we knew that those businesses had great brand equity, great, you know, they had great teams, they had people that were part of them that, you know, knew how to storytell and new, new these categories, the. Whether it be climbing or running or whatever category one might be in the outdoor space. And by bringing that all together to me, we've created an ecosystem that has much more sustainability into the future than maybe what it had before.

28:44

So I was about to ask how you did that, how did you transfer into that, how did you pivot over into that SaaS model where you went away from it? Because again, specialized, that's. I wrote on those for years they saved My tuchas. Many of times.

31:24

They're great bikes, Great bikes. And by the way, but they're still advertisers. Just, it's just, you know, it's just different level of emphasis to what they used to do. You know, one is again, scale. Bringing the companies together had a part of it. But then we rebuilt the tech platform, we started asking people to log in and we launched a digital subscription and we got rid, you know, we had to get rid of a lot of the print. We only have one print magazine left, which is Outside Magazine. We don't have Yoga Journal. We don't have Climbing. We don't have any of those anymore because those were really in distress. I mean, most of them, the media publication, the standalone subscripts like print magazines, were losing a million bucks a year each. I mean, it wasn't. It was like they were losing a lot of money, you know, and so we had to go through that. And it was a tra. It was a, you know, I would say a painful transition. I mean, we certainly had reductions in the team over the last three or four years. There were, there were challenges with doing it. But ultimately to get us to this point where we have a very sustainable business, that the business mix really can support these amazing brands and media that we have today as one of the.

31:34

Divisions, as you've seen that transition from print, physical copy into SaaS as an option. And now that we're heading into an AI first model, and when I try to explain this to people, Amazon was an Internet first business period and everybody else tried to catch up and then they tried to do it a mixed model and they just got crushed. We're heading to now an AI first organizations and that's where we're going. Where do you see outside heading towards? How do you. How do you handle that next onslaught? How do you handle that tidal wave that's coming?

32:41

I mean, I think what. What we've tried to do internally, as we've tried to educate the team, we've tried to give them the tools. You know, again, if in the idea that hopefully we have very curious people on our team that are inspired to get people outdoors, you want to put the right tools in their hand and hopefully then they'll start to really learn and figure out ways to leverage that into our own business. And so what we're seeing is that whether it's from engineering to marketing to even our GNA categories, things like legal, is that there's a lot of experimentation in the use of it. There's a Lot of people thinking about ways to maybe accelerate certain parts of things that they did so they could spend more time on other areas that are of potentially higher, higher value. But I think for, I think for what I'd call non AI first organizations, which, by the way, I mean, there aren't many, right? I mean, there are only so many organizations that, quote, started within the last three years that are really AI first. Every other business is going through a transformation about how do you use these tools and how do you integrate them. Right. And I think that we're, you know, where do I think we are? It's a, you know, certainly it's a bit messy. I wouldn't say it's easy. You know, I think that it's, you know, again, I think you try to educate and put the right tools in people's hands and hopefully good things come out. And then I think on the hiring front, you try to find people that are thinking about AI first. But as an example, there are places where it has amazing use for us. Like one example is something like text to audio. Now all of our articles have audio because of AI, right? That's leverage from our perspective. Or text to text in every language. If I had tried to do that a decade ago, Charles, it would have cost me millions to do translation. Right now, essentially it's close to free, right? It's the tokenization and cost to convert a 3,000 word article just isn't very expensive to do that in every language on the planet. But on the flip side, we also have been very, very clear. We don't want, as an example, our written content to be written with AI, right? We want storytelling to be real storytelling. And so again, there are places in our business, you know, it's quite an accelerant. And there's other places where we want to, you know, sort of cautiously go into some of the uses and really, you know, understand the tools before we implement them, you know, at a, at a broader and broader level. Right. So I just think again, it goes back to that curious thing, like if you, if you have people that are curious, they will start to use the new tools. I don't care if it's mobile, I don't care if it's things like social, all of them, they'll start to use them. And that's what essentially I would say that our organization is trying to do and go through that transition right now.

33:11

People who are curious to get outside and to really start doing this and start changing it because they're seeing things changing. What are some of the statistics, because we know this all the time. If I put a million dollars in a room and make it really hard to get to the million dollars, you're probably not going to go after it. If I release a bunch of lions to chase you to go get in there, you're going to go get in that room. It doesn't matter about the million dollars anymore. So sometimes we need to take that, that hammer versus the hug in order to get people where they want to go. You're, you're the king of telling me some of these things. And before we started recording, you gave me more. What are some of the things that if someone's on the cusp of, you know, maybe I don't want to go outside, or all of that, that you get the hemming and hawing. What are some of the things that you're like, hey, this is what we're seeing. Because you know this better than almost anybody. I know. What are some of the things that are going on?

36:05

Yeah, I mean, I think we're in like, I believe 2026 is like the year of the digital detox. Like, whether you look at something like touch grass as a, you know, hashtag on, in on TikTok or Instagram, you know, there's like, articles and not, I'm not saying our publications writing about how unplugging is, is like the new luxury, right? Like getting that unplugged time. And I do think there is a bit of AI backlash in terms of like, you know, just technology. But when I think about the real benefits that people need to think about is this, like, outdoors is medicine, you know, And I do think, look at Gen Z, they're not drinking, Charles. And they're not drinking because they understand the data better than they ever have, right? What's happening to them, you know, whether it's sleep and these types of things. And so, you know, when I think about, like, you know, this, like, when I think about what's happened, I think we have hit sort of peak screen time and people are thinking about ways and specifically escapes. Like, if I, if I look at like the outside ecosystem, the average person in our ecosystem is, is going like on 14 days of trips a year. Like they're going somewhere and they are trying to find places to detox, right? They're trying to find places where they might be offline, they might be disconnected, you know, and, and I, I again, from my pers. That's what's so important is like, it doesn't, again, it doesn't matter that you're doing an Ironman, right, Charles? Or like a marathon, like, if you want to go do that. That's a great way to really have a disconnected type of experience. But, you know, I'm using example, like, if you decide to go on a trip, you know, pick somewhere that is close to nature. Pick. Pick a place where you can easily just get out for a little mini walk or a hike, or go down into the local town where you're, you know, might do some sightseeing and some souvenir buying, but, like, make it far enough away that, like, you have to, like, you know, pick yourself up and get out of the bed and. And get away from the hotel to go do that. Right?

36:52

Yeah. It's the conversation of blue zones where we talk about some of the things that are in blue zones that make people so healthy. And one of the ones they found was getting outside, but there was a certain incline. If your environment forces you to. To walk up a certain incline in order to get food, you're going to be healthier than if you have to go downhill. It just. It is what it is. And having those and forcing it, It's.

38:53

It's really, really simple stuff in that book. There's a really good example of. I believe it's Sicily, where there's a ton of stairs in the town, right?

39:16

It's exactly.

39:25

Everybody has to walk up and down the stairs. And, you know, again, to your point, like, just putting yourself in that situation is your, you know, your. Your blood's going to start pumping. You're going to start, you know, using muscles that maybe you don't use when you're just sitting around on the couch, typing away on the. On the laptop.

39:25

I think you said it earlier really well. We live in a society right now where we are spending more time inside than we ever have in humanity. And our bodies haven't evolved for this. So it's unbelievably unhealthy for us. And it really became a challenge for a bunch of us. We sat down and we're like, okay, let's all commit to being accountability partners. 20 minutes a day of what's known as a Navy SEAL burpee, which is a little different than a regular burpee. We're like, we're going to do this. And we were all slacking off on it. We just. We just weren't doing it. I'm just being honest. We're guys. We just weren't doing it. I was like, that's it enough. So we have a zoom call Every morning, and everyone gets on their stupid things, and we're like, all right, let's bang them out. And we're just ripping on each other because we're just having fun. We're just going through the 20 minutes, and it's a bonding exercise. And I remember when we first started this, I am so glad those calls were not being recorded, because it's some of the most embarrassing things I've seen with my dear friends. You know, falling all over the floor trying to do these burpees in our boxers. And just like, this is. This is embarrassing. But it became this bonding exercise.

39:43

But it's. It's. It's that social accountability. I go back to, like, if. If you are not good at getting yourself outdoors or doing some type of activity, like, the social thing will have an impact. So again, find a run group, find a walk group, a hike group, a swim group. Like, find a group that is going to allow you to get some of that social connectivity, but also social pressure to help you go do those things, because it does make a big difference, right? Like, that's why, to me, I think we're seeing booms in these social running clubs and hike clubs and pickleball clubs and all of these things is because the social sort of, I don't know, pressure, anxiety, whatever you want to call it, is real and will help you, right?

40:41

It's this longing to connect. And. And just because you join a group just for everybody listening, doesn't mean you have to stay. I remember I joined a climbing group, and we were working on something, and the guy put his hand in a crack and then turned it and made a fist, and then he locked himself in there, and he was working on something else. I was like, absolutely not. I'm doing that. I'm like, you're out of your mind. I was like, wait, you let go of you. I'm like, I'm not doing that. I was like, ah, no. So finding what works and what doesn't work, like, I. I love swimming because it allows me to Zen out. And I used to tell people all the time the reason I became a scuba diver was because my cell phone didn't work underwater. Which, the truth was, my pager didn't work underwater.

41:30

But it makes me that if that works, if that works to get you off the phone, I'm all for it.

42:03

Get you outside. Are there any things. Are there any beneficial things that are on the phone that you could sit there when you are on a screen? You know, be it wearables or some of the scientific data that you're seeing.

42:08

I mean, look. I mean, you look at some of even like our core applications like Gaia GPS or trail forks, like helping help, you know, having a map to help you discover where the trailhead is, how far it is. Where is that hike from your house? Like, you know, yes, there, there are, you know, nutrition trackers and other things on the phone that certainly, you know, I mean, if you're, if you're wearing a wearable, like an aura or a whoop, like you go get the data on the phone. So I'm not suggesting that there is no use for this technology and you should give it up altogether, but I'm just saying that we are out of balance, Charles. We are not connecting and, and spending as much time as we should be on, you know, away from our phones. You know, again, even socially, families with, you know, the outdoors, all of these things are just so important. And, you know, I just think it goes back to how do you create more balance and how do you create that accountability?

42:19

How is outside making the balance between tech and outside? You know, you mentioned a couple pieces of software there. What are the things that you have found? Like, hey, we're very intentional. I know this about your origin. You're very intentional about what you deliver and how you get created as you're trying to, you know, not only does it have your company thrive, but also have your customers thrive. What are some of those balance integration that you guys are doing?

43:16

Yeah, I mean, I'll use something really, really simple. You know, look, I mean, obviously we, we write a lot of content. We create shows around the outdoors. You know, we have, we we license films and, you know, obviously, you know, want people to be inspired through, you know, big adventure storytelling and things of that nature that people might, you know, watch, you know, one of the publications. But I think what's more important for us now is that we create the connection to somebody actually going to do that thing. So as an example, like if you see us write an article about the top 10 hikes, right, we will embed the maps directly in it so that you can download those maps and then we can see did the inspiration of that story actually drive you to go do that activity, right? Like go out because you've now you've discovered it on one of the mapping tools and then you've gone out and logged it. You know, whether that's in Gaia, Trail Forks or Map My Fitness, that you're out there experiencing it, that connection is super important. Or another example is like, with our travel software, like, we. We built it so that we could. If you. If we write an article about the top 10 ski resorts, that we're directly getting you to book that trip right out of the article, so that that experience is really seamless because there's nothing more than we want to take you from that moment of inspiration, like, oh, I really want to steamboat and ski to actually booking it and going to do it, Charles. Like, that's what's most important to creating that connection between, you know, the use of technology and then actually, you know, separating yourself and going to do that actual activity.

43:36

So I selfishly want to know when you say, hey, these are the top 10 this or the top 10 that? Because I've scooped out for a very long time, like, oh, these are the top 10 places. I'm like, no, those are not the top 10. Like, who wrote this? And I get authentically angry at the this. When you guys are creating this lists, how do you guys narrow this down? Because I'm authentically curious. How do you decide these are the top 10 hikes or the top 10 this or top 10 that?

45:13

Yeah, I mean, look, I mean, you can. I think you can debate. I. I could. I could debate with other cyclists about the top 10 rides in the world, right? And. And it's based on my experience, right? Like, you know, I happen to believe that places like Switzerland and northern Italy have cycling. Cycling in the world. Right? But I will tell you, like, I just got back from, you know, Maine, from the Maine Tourism and Outdoor Conference, and I can tell you that there are amazing places to ride in Maine. Right? But. But it's. To me, a lot of this is. If you're. If you're talking about, you know, us writing and curating these things, some of it's based on data. So we'll look in our database, and actually, because we know where people are hiking, like, whether that be in national parks or other places, we'll pull from that data and then use that data to disseminate into storytelling. Hey, here are places that are popular, or here are places that are, you know, not popular, but beautiful, because we have great photos and things like that from them. But ultimately, it does come down to some personal experience. So I think you can always debate whether or not your top 10 scuba diving places are the same top 10 that I would have. Right? But I think more than. More important than anything is putting that out there for people that maybe have never experienced it and don't know where to go, know that they can find Places. Right.

45:35

I think the one exception to the rule is Switzerland. Just. Switzerland just wins across the board. Yeah.

46:53

I lived there four years. It's beautiful.

46:59

We're in Switzerland. Were you?

47:03

I lived two years in Neuchatel and then two years in Lugano.

47:05

Oh, my God. All right. Yeah, Switzerland wins just for. Everybody's paying attention. We could create outside online Switzerland, and we just wait. Just. Just go to Switzerland on it. It is what it is when we're going through this. You're a cyclist. Some of the things that are proven for you and some of the things that rank for you. If you're like, these are the top 10 tools. Because everyone will kill me if I don't ask you this. It's the one thing when I. When I told everyone that I was interviewing. All right, get his stuff on cycling. We want to know what are his top 10 tools that he loves more than anything else when it comes to, like, like, your favorite bike or your favorite this or what are the 10 things with cycling that you're like, you gotta do this. This is your thing.

47:10

Well, I'll start with the. The broader health and wellness things. Like, I love eight sleep, the product for your mattress, like, and how it helps you sleep. I've been an Aura user or a ring user since the very beginning. Like, I have over six years of data, daily data in Aura, and I use it. The score that you get every day, I use specifically to think about my cycling. Like, how hard I ride on a specific day. You know, there are certainly other, you know, like, I use. I've used Garmin forever. You know, I use, you know, whether that be on the bike or even from a watch perspective. The nice thing about the new Apple Watch, like, one thing I love. I don't. I don't love things on my wrist. That's why I prefer something like the Oura ring. But one thing I do love about the new Apple Watch is that it has a UV sensor on it, so it can tell you how much time you're outdoors. It literally can measure how much time you're in sunlight. So, like, I love that just from a. Ability to give you insights on, are you spending time indoors or outdoors? And, you know that the impact that's potentially having on your health and wellness. You know, there's a lot of. I mean, look, I could go into detail about things like continuous glucose monitors and, you know, some of the devices that are coming in the future. Like, you know, core body temperature matters a lot when you're training and doing certain types of activities. But, you know, the tools and equipment you have are really essential. So like, what bike do I ride? I, I ride like, I, I'm more, I ride road mostly and gravel, so. But I ride specialized. Like I ride a crux for gravel and I ride a tarmac on the road, you know, so the tools are super important to me about having that great experience when you're out there, no matter what it is that you're doing. Same thing in running. Like I would say that, you know, like as an example, I just got this new pair of Brooks Glycerin Flex. It's like their brand new shoe. It's like an amazing shoe. Right? So like having the right tools, no matter what you're doing, whether you're hiking, you know, climbing, riding, walking, whatever it is, is really critical so that you keep coming back. Because if you have a poor experience because of the tool, the equipment, then you probably won't do it again. Right? So like, you know, that's what. It just matters a lot, no matter which activity you're in, that you have the right equipment, you know. And by the way, doesn't mean you can't buy used equipment because there's a lot of good used equipment out on the market too. So like, if you're thinking about it from a sustainability or cost perspective, there's lots of places. Like we have this big marketplace called Pink Bike Marketplace, which is the largest mountain bike sort of transaction marketplace, kind of like ebay for, you know, bikes. And I think right now we have 60,000 used bikes listed on Pink Bike Marketplace globally. Right? So there's lots of places to find great used equipment, no matter which category or discipline you're in.

47:42

I think there's also two things that was subtle in what you just said was you got six years of data on your OURA ring. That's going to have a better idea. So if I got an OURA ring right now, it's not going to have the same tenacity or same data in there because you're basing off yours, which is an ALGO based off 6 years versus I'm basing off what would be, you know, a couple months. So there's that, that. But I also think there's the concept of, you know, there isn't one versus the other. For example, when I scuba dive, I use Ziegel. That's just. I like them because I prefer my secondary on my chest. I use a Ziegle Ranger because I know that what's going to probably kill me down there is not going to be a fish. It's going to be the other diver. Ripping my first stage out of my mouth. I'm expecting that. So normally when someone runs into it, we'll spit the rag, which means I literally. And then it'll fly to the other person. And then I could take my secondary, which is a foot away. I mean, it's, it's eight inches away from my mouth. You're not going to take it away from me. So it's a matter of what comfortable. The first one I ever had was a gift. It was a used one, which was wonderful. So it doesn't have to be brand new. It's just the gear you're using that makes you feel safe and makes you want to go outside and makes you want to execute. That I think is going to be really important. Some of the last type of things, you know, you have access to stuff that most people don't. When you're talking about core temperature and you're talking about, you know, maybe glasses that we're using, maybe blue light glasses is. Are there other tools that, God, I wish people would use this or things that you're like, I use these every day and I can't imagine my life without them.

50:46

You know, I don't, like, I'm a huge advocate for things like saunas, even red light saunas. I know there's a lot of debate about real saunas versus red light. And you know, but I, we have a red light one and I use it, I'd say regularly. I mean, I wish I used it more. Cold pundling is another thing I think is really like, if, if you think about, you know, let's say you're doing a, you know, fairly intense workout. There's a lot of inflammation. So something like cold plunging really can help that. If you're out, you know, riding two, three, four, five hours and you get back like, it's, it's, it's really good to do, you know, so there, there are things like that that, you know, certainly I would say, you know, not only do we write about and, you know, certainly I advocate on a personal level, but I also think there's a, there's, you know, and there are, you know, there are many, many apps that people can download. Whether it's for meditation, like I said, whether it's for food tracking, whether it's for different performance and training things, you know, but there's also a case to be made for, like, really listening to your body, like, like almost disconnecting from the wearables. At times to understand, like, what is. What is just, you know, if you listen closely enough, what is your. Your core saying to you? Like, are you tired? Are you. Like, even if your ring is saying, hey, Robin, you're ready to go get it today? Like, you're, you know, your recovery score is awesome, but I just feel crappy, right? Like, you gotta listen, too, because there is. You know, oftentimes your body will tell you things that maybe the devices don't have 100% perspective into.

52:07

Yeah. I think for me, when I found out that I could just do blood work and get my biomarkers back, that was huge because I was ice plunging like crazy. And they were like, hey, you've got. You know, you grew up in South Florida, therefore there's an immense amount of mold in your system. And I was like, whoa. And we said, okay, stop ice punching. I was like, why am I stopped? I'm like, go get an ir sauna, sit it. Every single day, twice a day, you got to detox this stuff out. You got to open your body up so you can get this more. It takes time. So getting those other data sets, getting those numbers that you can only figure out, you know, figuring out where your DNA is and your snips based off your DNA and. And figuring out how your body reacts to certain things and gluten and histamines and all of these things across the board, that data is above and beyond. And I think, to your point, the best way to do this, and I know this is going to sound. Get outside my body. I can hear my body better when I'm outside. I'm hiking in Switzerland than I can anywhere else. So this just became a promotion for Switzerland. Go to Switzerland.

53:41

By tourism. Switzerland.

54:40

Yeah, exactly. That's what it is. For now, go to Lucerne and just walk up and down. You'll be fine. You'll feel much better.

54:41

Much better. Yeah.

54:48

So if people want to feel better and they want to learn more about this and they want to track you down and get more information about you, Robin, how do they track you down? What's the best way to get a hold of you?

54:49

I mean, we have so many sites and so many products. I always tell people to just go. Like, our. One of our largest ones is outside online. And if you go into the nav, you can see everything that we kind of have to offer. But said, you know, create accounts, sign up for a membership, you know, start engaging with the content and the services that we have. Sign up for an event. That's a big way to sort of, you know, get you through the learning curve. And that could be everything from a, you know, a 5k to a 10k to whatever endeavor you might want to, you know, sign up for. But sign up for something because it will motivate you to do that. So. But you can find all that@outsideonline.com Robin.

54:57

I really appreciate it. It's always fun talking to you. Thank you so much.

55:34

You. Thanks for having me.

55:36

That's a wrap on another episode of the Proven podcast Community builds momentum, data builds direction, execution builds results. Stop watching trends. Start building ecosystems while others chase attention. You could be creating platforms that last. Remember, if your strategy doesn't create real value, it was never proven to scale.

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