Do You Ever Feel Like a Total Loser?

Hi everybody, welcome to We Can Do Hard Things. Hi. Hi. Hi. Hi, sister. How are you doing? I'm so great. How are you? I mean, I don't know. I never know how I'm doing. It's just something I say. Okay. Real quick, how do you know how you're doing, Amanda? Oh, Jesus. We're really jumping into it. I have learned lately that I have a core self and I have to touch it. I can tell that I'm not doing my best when I am in a buzzy reactive state, which usually means I'm mad at someone, but often means I'm not mad at someone. I'm just not doing well. Oh. And it's showing as if I'm mad at someone because that is safer feeling for me than not doing well. So it's really like I have to reverse engineer it often to determine that I'm not doing well. I have to scooby-do it back. Okay. So is it like my brain is wired to solve every problem with food? So that's all the like trying to develop new neuroplasticity. Is yours wired to be angry? Is what you're saying? The first reaction is anger, but actually underneath that is something else that you're learning to investigate? Yeah. It's the safer option. So like for you, it's safer to deal with food, either indulgence or restriction than it is to deal with whatever more complicated, scarier, more electrified thing inside of you. And for me, it is both exhausting and tired and annoying as shit, but also safer for me just to be like, that person did that thing that was wrong or I'm mad at them or whatever it is than to be like, ooh, something just happened and made me feel scared or insecure or upset, which activated a feeling in me that I needed to address by expressing anger out. Something external triggered something inside of you that created some feeling and you've probably over the course of your life have learned all of these different techniques to quell whatever that thing inside of you happens. That makes sense. Right. So it's easier for me. It's more for me to be mad than it is to be like, ooh, that thing just happened and I'm worried that's going to make my daughter really sad or make me future trip about what that means in her life. And so instead of sitting with that and feeling that disquiet and realizing there's nothing I can do to control it, I will just be like, well, if only John had made that appointment that I told him to make, then this thing would have been addressed. It's so sweet when you're talking about it. I'm thinking of it's like, it's directionally incorrect. Hear me out because you said there's a core self inside. Okay. So it's like we're walking through life and we've got a shopping cart, right? With our kid in the shopping cart. And our kid is our core self, our inner self, little one. And something happens in the grocery store and the kid gets scared. What we do is we abandon the kid in the shopping cart, run toward the thing that has scared her and scream at that thing, which the only problem is that now our little kid in the shopping cart is abandoned and not at all comforted and scared her. Except that it's usually even more complicated than that because usually our easier emotion is taken out on the other people who are closest to us. So it's as if the exact same situation except your partner or your other sibling or your boss or whatever is pushing the cart with you. And when that other person scares your kid in the cart, you turn around and tell your partner, fuck you. That is so correct. I don't know what the solution is, but I know that's the problem. The pod squad is probably listening right now going, dear God, you say this every week and every week you act like it's new. And I want you to know that it is new. It is fresh to me every time I learn it. Okay. So the answer then is to take deep breaths until you can see the kid in the cart again. Tell me exactly what you're doing. Honestly, if there is an episode that I think maybe a lot of people missed because it was during our like a bazillion teen episode, just frenzy, it was the one about, we'll put it in the show notes because I can't remember. It was basically like learning how I learned to feel. And this again is something that's super simple that I think a lot of people know, but I literally didn't know until one year ago. And it is as simple and as hard as this, which is that feeling that like, oh, I have the thing happening in me and whether it comes out as anger or sadness or eating or not eating or whatever it is. When that feeling comes that for whatever reason you can't tolerate, you're even at the place where you don't even notice you're having that feeling because you have so effectively ignored it and bypassed it for so long. So usually I only notice it when I'm about to go to sleep because for the rest of my life I'm able to override the feeling. But when I'm falling asleep, I can't as effectively. So that's when I usually start solving. So I'm like, oh, you feel anxious. All right, well, here's the six things we can do tomorrow that'll deal with anxiety. I've logically figured it out. If we do this at nine o'clock and you talk to that person and this doesn't work. This is the reason you're laying there for five hours instead of, you know, it just exacerbates it. So what I have had to do is learn a feeling lasts a maximum of 90 seconds. That's too long. 90 seconds. But I will stay up laying in my bed, persevering on it for six hours, which is why I knew that that was a lie about the 90 seconds. But it turns out that that is not a lie about the 90 seconds because what I was doing was not feeling the feeling. I was analytically attempting to solve the feeling by thinking and putting words around it. So what I literally have to do, and it's only because I love the pod squad that I'm willing to just embarrass myself like this. But I literally lay there and I close my eyes when I have noticed this. And I say to myself over and over, no words, no words, no words until I can stop. The word overlay from my head over the feeling and get quiet enough where I just have, I experience the feeling. It is happening in my body. And the weirdest thing is that if you do that and you let yourself feel the feeling, it will indeed last 90 seconds and then it's over. Amanda, why do you suspect that you can only do it at night right before bed? I think that I'm not practiced enough to be going throughout my day and pay attention. That I think when I'm laying there, that's when I'm like, oh God, it's here. But for the rest of my day, I have a lot of practice overriding feelings and just being like, nope, not doing that. Nope. But when I'm going to bed, I can't. It's just stillness too. It's just avoiding, that's why so many of us so often avoid being still because that's when all of the hot loneliness arises. And what you're talking about is that Pemeshojan idea, which is if you can sit with the hot loneliness for 90 seconds today when yesterday you could only sit with it for 60, then that is the journey of the warrior. So that's what you're doing. You're learning to let the hot loneliness rise and ride it out for longer and longer. And you're actually learning that it's not that long. And that it actually is doing a thing. I thought that feelings were for solving. I thought I was taking care of myself in that way. I thought when I had a wave of anxiety, when I had a wave of sadness, that I was like, oh, I'm coming to help you. I'm coming to help you and give you resources and tools and thoughts and strategies to get through this. But when I was doing that, I was prolonging it and not letting the cycle happen. So there is a natural cycle that when it comes, it needs to come, do its course and go and thank you, baby Jesus, that it's 90 seconds. We could be living in a world where it was three hours and we had to do that for three hours. It's 90 seconds. But when I was coming in and attaching my solves to it, that is what makes me stay up at night. And that actually, it's not a problem to solve. So basically you were saying to the feeling, don't worry, I'm here to help. And the feeling was like, stand down, I'm here to help. I'm just what I am. I am not susceptible to your help. We are speaking two different languages literally. I am speaking, I feeling, I'm speaking the language of the body and I only speak in body. And you are speaking the language of logic and analytics and I don't speak that language. So all you're doing is keeping me up. Yeah, yeah. And adding fuel to the fire because it does, it's not totally disconnected. They're not two different languages in different realms. The story, the words, to me, I experience the feeling as a small fire that has to come and do its thing. I would like it to go, but the stories that I keep going in my head are actually more fuel. I feel afraid for my kid. And then my mind goes, oh, and this is the thing that could happen. And also, do you remember this? And then that could happen. And then this and this. And so the story actually does become fuel that makes the fire bigger and bigger and bigger when I attach story to it. Yeah, but you're having a story thing. Now you're in anxiety. You are stirring up your anxiety, but that's now a feeling. A feeling is, by definition, will only last 90 seconds. When you're talking and stirring up, now you are in an anxiety spiral and an anxiety spiral can last days, months. I mean, mine has lasted 47 years. If you actually drop into the feeling, that will only last 90 seconds. Abby, what do you do? What is your thing? Are you just like, you're from a different planet, YouTube? Yeah, you both are amazing. No, but you kind of have your own things. You can't just be, when you're in the grocery store and the baby in the cart gets scared, how do you know it's scared? What do you do that's maladaptive or good adaptive? What's your thing? She's like, hey, cute baby. I do get dysregulated at times. Some of my knee-jerk reactions when I get dysregulated to protect myself are fun. Explain what that is to people. Because of the household I was raised in, where rocking the boat was not a part of the equation, and you just had to go along with what my mom said. A lot of times, what she said didn't really resonate all the time. Some of the stuff didn't make sense. There weren't logical consequences. It was just my way or the highway. I think having seven children, I understand why she had to do that. Sometimes traffic on the highway. I really do. You're lucky she even stayed on that highway. I would be like, I am exiting. And because I was young as a seven, it gave me this anxious attachment style that I'm oftentimes more afraid that you will leave me or that I will be left alone or something. I just like, whatever the circumstances that I feel scared, I try to fix it. Maybe the way that you guys fix it, I go into action around fixing it. And then a resentment can get built up over time, I think. For an example, the sink, washing things down the sink. That really irritates me every single time. And I wash it down myself and I am pissed the whole fucking time. And I'm wiping that thing so hard. And the story I have attached to it. So my feelings get hurt because I've asked so often for you all to do the thing. And then when it's not complied with, I feel like nobody listens to me. And so the story is, nobody listens to me. Nobody loves me. Eventually they're going to leave because they don't love me enough to do the like very thing that I'm asking for. And so how I get from the anger, honestly, if I go one step below it, it's truly sadness because I feel like maybe they don't really love me. Maybe it is in fact true that I am unlovable. And that's where the story can get involved in my head. Do you feel like you're unlovable? Is this a feeling that everyone has? I don't know. What about you? If I found out in a couple years of therapy that I believe I'm unlovable, I'd be like, no fucking surprise. But so I'm not certain that I don't think I'm lovable. I feel like my bigger thing is that I'm unsatisfiable. How about you? Yes, I have a feeling that I am, I don't know if it's obviously like unstable or the self-centeredness that comes from feeling like you're unstable. So you have to spend all day making sure that you're stable, which then blocks you from checking in on anyone else ever. Like you feel like the best thing. It's a real catch-22. It's like, would you rather have me be unstable or selfish because you're going to get one of the two. I mean, you guys, I think it's very real for people who either have some like mental health stuff or just think they do because that's the story they've had their whole life. And it becomes this thing of like the best thing I can do for my people is just whatever it takes today to not lose my shit. And then that is what you do all day. And then suddenly you're like, wait, sort of self-contained or something. It's hard for me to put into words, but I know it's a thing because I think a lot of people who have, I'm thinking of Emma saying, we all have challenges who have my specific challenges do fear that they are unloving, maybe not completely unlovable, but unable to love because it's so hard to just stay steady enough to not burden people. Hmm. So the best I can do is not be a burden. I can't actually help you. And I'm not saying that this is where we're landing. 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That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash hard things. Head to masterclass.com slash hard things to see the latest offer. Do you guys ever feel like just a big loser? No, I'm always feeling like a winner all day from morning to night. But like, are you ever like, Abby, do you ever feel like a loser this weekend on Sunday? I was like, oh my god, I'm just such a fucking loser. What made you feel that way? It was so upsetting to me. What was the impetus of events that made you feel like a loser? It's just been for like a decade. Do you want me to review all that? It was like a moment and I was like, oh god, this feels awful. So I had been like doing a bunch of things and trying to, first of all, I don't understand how people do things. I don't understand how people like have families and make sure kids do their homework and also make sure the piles in the house don't overtake you and also do their job. And then things happening on Saturday night with other people, it makes me feel like a loser because I don't know how to do that. I'm just in my house doing all my things and trying to feel good about that because I'm barely getting that done. And then so I'm in, I'm doing all the things and I'm not quite doing them well enough and everything's just hanging on by a freaking thread. And then I go and like some of my friends were out like doing something and they like posted a picture of it and I'm like, it was a little bit that I wasn't invited, but just a tiny bit because no chance I would have wanted to go. But more just like, how are they doing that? And am I a loser that I can't? That I can't figure out how to like have this world and keep my family on track and also have a world that apparently goes outside of the house? I mean, I suppose I would want to, I suppose there's a version of me that could want to do that. I'm not aware of that version, but I think maybe if I had that kind of life, that would be happy. But I'm more just like, I don't even know how I'd begin to do that because they look like they want to do that and that they're enjoying that. What do you think? Do you think you're a loser? Is that something you feel about yourself? I mean, sometimes when I think of what did I do today? I think I woke up and then all day and then I was cold and then I tried to get warmer and then I was hot and then I tried to get cooler and then I tried to get warmer and then I tried to get cooler. And basically what I accomplished today was that I back and forth regulated my body temperature and then it was time to go to bed. That's all I do. And also you like to make yourself a little busy. I putter. You're a putter. What did you do? I regulated my body temperature and I moved some things from one room to another because I like to be efficient and get shit done. Sometimes when I'm going to the bathtub, I take with me a towel and I fold it. Does that make you in your body feel like that is a loser? Like do you feel like a loser? I mean, frankly it should. She said frankly it should. Yeah, I have major, major episodes of what you're talking about. Debilitating ones. I actually don't even want to get into it right now. I don't. I have times in my life. I mean, I'm just a little bit, you know what I'm talking about and I don't want to go into it right now. But I have moments where someone will say to me, this thing you're doing or how the way you've been is hurtful to me. Someone is next to me. Someone who shall remain nameless, everyone. And I am thrown into a pit of hell that makes me understand that I've never done a single thing right in my entire life, that I have never connected with anyone in my life, that I have been a selfish motherfucking bastard, my entire, a tornado. Like I have been a thing. You know what I picture? I picture those medieval people who spun around a sphere that had, that has spikes on it. Yeah. That I've just been doing that my entire life. And that no one will be at my funeral and they shouldn't honestly. Little shame spiral. So no, not at all. I feel fine and this is after decades of therapy. Just decades, every mode you can imagine, all of them. I don't feel like a loser. We kind of suspect it as much. That's because you have chosen to hang out with us and anyone that hang out with us in comparison would not feel like a loser. Yeah. Yeah. Why don't you go hang out with some people who aren't losers and see how you feel? See how you stack up? Didn't Trump say that recently? He said I hang out with losers so I can feel better about myself. Anyway, moving right along. Abby, tell us how you feel about yourself and how you do that. And what temperature are you at? Because I think that might make a difference. Well, so like I think to go back to the first question, like how are you? How are you doing? We didn't even get through that. I think for me, when I start feeling like, like a little bit of a loser in my life, that I'm not doing the things that I know make me happy, that bring me life force energy, that make me, even though it takes more time, which I don't have any of, to leave the house and to go do something that is actually very different and fun and something that, you know, we went to the love championship volleyball game last weekend. And I was tired. I didn't want to actually leave the house. I wanted to stay home in my pajamas and just like rest. But I had been resting all morning and I thought maybe it's not good to rest the whole day, like for 12 straight hours in bed. Maybe we leave and we left and we just had the best time. Sometimes we go out to dinner, which is a new fun thing that Glenn is letting us do. It's so exciting. It's just the two of us. We go on a little date, maybe like once a week and we walk to dinner and it's so fun. And now that the kids are getting a little bit older and they're out of the house, like a lot of times they don't even want to eat dinner with us anymore. So we're like, we look at each other and we're like, you want to go out for dinner? This is so exciting. So the way that I approach my life so that I don't feel like a loser is I have to go do things that make me not feel like a loser. I want to start playing golf again. I need to start doing something that is going to like bring me back into life and into myself again. Going back to that go somewhere, sister. Unfortunately, God, I'll try any. We have paid $400,000 in therapy, but we're like anything but doing something. I know. But just think about your life though. Like think about no, no. Think about lying on your deathbed and being like, ask yourself this question. We're basically doing that now. That's what I'm saying. Like ask yourself the question. While I'm lying on my deathbed, while I be mad at myself for doing something or not doing something. And I have just my personality, I will be more mad about not living my life to the fullest. I mean, I hope I'm not mad at myself for any reason on my deathbed, Jesus. I know, but you're going to be thinking about like some of the things that you may have done differently. I will. When you use that word stale, like I do think I feel like a bigger loser. When I have that kind of groundhog day, every day's been the same. I'm doing the same thing over and over. And that pile that every day I keep undoing the pile, that resonates. It's like when there's anything new, I think I do feel like less of a loser. I am going to note that like also this loser spiral, one of the origins of it that you mentioned was getting on social media and seeing people being somewhere. I feel like there's something in that that is important because I actually do things maybe every so often. I go a place and sometimes I'll put a picture of it on social media. And I wonder if seeing anyone out doing anything makes people feel like everyone else is doing stuff all the time and I'm in my house doing nothing. When actually everyone's only doing something every once in a while, just like we are and most of the time we're not, but it makes us feel this feeling of like, I'm wasting my life. I'm not doing the thing. I'm not living. I'm not. But people didn't used to have that, that whole idea that comparison is the thief of joy. I know we continue to come back to that theme on this podcast, but I just think that there's something that's, you know, we started the, we can do hard things with that one idea of like the picture in our head of how it's supposed to be is the problem. And what we see online is the picture of how it's supposed to be that then makes us feel like how we're doing it is wrong. It's something about that. I think that's totally right. The irony of like all the pictures posted of being at the Oscars. And it's like, God, I'm such a loser. I never knew anything. I can't even know that. We were losers. Yeah. Well, we were losers. We're literally losers. But I mean, it's not necessarily like the doing something. It's the difference between how I feel in my body about like, I don't have the capacity or even the desire to do anything. And here's someone actually doing it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know when I just feel like, is there something wrong because I'm just like, well, just like a hermit in this. No, there's nothing wrong. It's like middle age and children at your kid's age, parents at our parents age, we are in this fucking time of life that is fucking impossible to have any like sense of calm or, but it's like even in the midst of what feels chaotic, there still has to be splashes of joy that can jolt you out of staleness, I think. That's the way that I choose to like go about curbing some of that. Like, God, I feel like such a bump on a log and I'm not doing anything. And we're not hanging out. We're not living life to its fullest because truly sometimes it is better to stay home on your weekends and freaking sleep in and get 10 hours of sleep because you're just trying to catch up. But then there are other times where you're like, okay, I've got to snap myself out of this little rut that I've been in. And it's interesting because it's like that inertia thing that you're talking about. Like when you actually start to go in motion, your body will actually follow and you become more interested in maybe going out into the world and doing other things with your friends or going on a date with your husband, just you and him, like all of the things. Do you guys go on dates? No. What is a date? Like, if you do you remember them? Like, do you really never do you? Do you talk about doing that? Is that I mean, I think sometimes that can be a I remember in my first marriage, which is much different than your marriage. But when people would tell me to go on a date, we would that would be like, you don't understand. That's the worst thing we could do. That's where we really know that this is not good. Because there's no distractions. At home we have distractions. Right. If you're trying to keep us together, the last thing you should do is tell us to be alone. But how is it for you guys? The best dates that we have are usually like going to a place where there's some kind of like sensory shared experience that it isn't like, I'm looking at you and you're looking at me and we're there looking out at something else and experiencing it because it's kind of like a different plane because I agree with you. We eat dinner as a family every night together. We're always sitting at a table looking at each other. So I'm like, what is the magic that y'all are talking about where we go to a more expensive table somewhere else and do the same thing? Like, I actually don't, I don't understand it. What I do understand is having a new experience, like having something that is different than regular life. So we go to concerts and there's something about like, okay, we're in this, but we're not in our normal plane. Like this music and this shared experience and the vibration of this place is so different than the plane on which we usually meet each other in our house. So I think those are really good and you can kind of like catch each other in a new light. Whereas in the table at a restaurant, that feels exactly like home, but you just know that you're paying triple for it because this is double expensive and you have a babesitter and there's somehow pressure to like get more out of this conversation than you would 15 minutes before at your house. That's weird to me, but like concerts feel really good. I also like being in groups of friends. Sometimes I can also catch a different light there where it's like, oh, I'm watching him laugh at a joke that someone else said and I'm like, oh, I haven't seen that particular tilt of the head in a minute. There's something about those new environments that I can totally see the value of, but the whole like we're going to make this better by going to a restaurant every week does not work for me. I'm more like annoyed about it. Okay, I have to tell you about something from a brand that I'm pretty familiar with and I think that all of our listeners must try. It's Gatorade Lower Sugar and it has everything you need for hydration. It's all the Gatorade electrolytes you love and 75% less sugar than Gatorade Thirst Quencher. We talk a lot about doing hard things here, but one of the most important hard things, taking care of yourself. 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There was no path when we were kids to make soccer a livelihood. You were so brave and just amazing to behold. Okay. So I exit college, immediately jump into sales, then tech sales, then climb the corporate ladder, and now manage so many people and have been competing and competing for years and years and forever. My question for Abby. When soccer ended, expected, and suddenly, and the competition was gone, did you find yourself still a competitive person? Or did you have to operate at the highest level of competition for so long that it engulfed you? How has that aspect of your personality changed since soccer ended, if at all? The question I'm asking myself is, is this me? Will I always need to compete? Or is this a reflection of the part I was cast in, the role I have filled for so long? Is there a life after relentless competing? Or is that thing that made and makes you great, always front and center? Thanks, friends. I love you. The hard questions are the best questions. Great question. Well written. Damn, Miranda. If the competition was for best question, you win. That was good. The first part of the question, and feel free to add your guys' takes on this too, has my relationship with being competitive changed and how, kind of, in my retirement. And I would say, though there is still a competitive part in me, the soccer part of me, and I saw a former French men's national team player say this the other day, so I'm going to repeat it because it really rang true, and I've been saying this kind of all along. The soccer part of me died. And there's no way to explain or to keep expressing that kind of competitiveness in normal real life. Because I was competing and fighting for my life. I felt like I was doing it as a survival technique. Now, do I want to win at things? Yeah, there is that, but I don't have the drive anymore to do whatever it takes to win. And that is personal to me. I think that this is a healed version of myself. I think that if I hadn't spent all these years working on myself and understanding the relationship I had with my sport and the relationship I had with the identity of a soccer player and the relationship I have with competitiveness and competition, I don't know if I'm having this awareness and understanding of it now because I'm sure it will change throughout my life. But the way that I feel about competition now is great if it works and great if it doesn't. That is true of you. I feel that. You don't tie anything to it anymore. You love it like in a joyful way when it happens, but you don't have your worth tied to it. Yeah, exactly. My worth is not tied to it. And so I am able to enter into competition with the understanding that if I lose, my life is not going to be ruined. Which I did feel like that when I was a soccer player, that if we didn't win a World Cup or an Olympics, that I felt like my life would be over, like that I would cease to exist, in fact. What I wonder is, did the decade that you spent stepping away from the matrix of competition allow you to rebuild your self-worth in a way that then you could re-enter the space and not have your self-worth tied to the competition, but still enjoy the whole thing? Because a lot of people can't do that. They can't step away from life for 10 years. So what replaced that matrix for you and allowed you to think about it all differently? It really rings true to me. You love to compete like you want to race me to the grocery store all the time, or you want everything to be a little competition. But I wanted to be for fun and for fun's sakes only. It's only for fun. None of it is tied to self-worth anymore, which is unusual. But I would actually go even deeper than self-worth, because yes, that's something I've absolutely been working on. But when I was playing, it felt like a personal battle between me and them. I was very conscious and cognizant of that kind of personal drive to beat other people. I think that I've gotten wiser in my age. I think that in sport, there is a place for that. I really understand it. I understand where it's like dog eat dog in a way. If I lose, then they win. If I win, then they lose. It's very kind of black and white in that way. I say this a lot. There's no such thing as a podcast emergency. We can figure everything out. I didn't feel that way. I felt like everything was an emergency when I was playing. And I think I played that way. You could see the intensity in which I played. My veins would come out of my neck. And I wonder if there was a limitation put on my ability as a soccer player, because what that is is fear. What I was expressing was I'm scared. And I'm trying to assert my control over the situation. And I kind of call it competition. Oh my God. So is it possible that competitiveness helps you to a certain degree? And then there's a point at which the more competitive you are, the more you're capping your possibility to win even higher because of the release, no surrender in it. Yes. And so the times when I won championships were the times that I surrendered to the energy field. I've talked a little bit about this. That little bit of letting go was the difference maker because it was like a less holding on too tight. And I know this to be true. The times where I was trying to control things too much and take things on too much myself. I don't think we won. Did you want to say something, Amanda? Well, I just wanted to say about your point you just raised about it limiting you. There was a study done on competitiveness. What Miranda is asking is basically like, was I born this way? Or did I become this way because of the things around me? And so I think is this kind of my role I play in my family? So therefore I became a competitor. Or is it like just this is Miranda. I'm going to be competing my whole life. Competitiveness is on a spectrum. So you just exist somewhere on the spectrum. And so they did a study where some people who are super, super hyper competitive and others who are less so are doing this experiment. And the hyper competitive people got more resources. Like there were more resources. The less competitive people got fewer resources. But then the super interesting thing happened that up to a certain point, the less competitive people were able to see with a wider lens. So they were able to come up with super creative solutions and sharing and problem solving that the hyper competitive people could not see. So the less competitive people were much more efficient in their creative use of their resources than the hyper competitive people who got more but couldn't figure out how to use them efficiently because their eye was only on the wind. So that makes so much sense in your team context. Because if you're like, my only goal is this thing. And so I must have like univision towards this outcome. You are blocking off all of these other maybe creative team oriented ways of getting to the same outcome because you're so laser focused. So that's super interesting. And I wonder if that's also true of someone like Miranda, where if you're like, yes, this is who you are, you've done it your whole life. And maybe you should be aware of this phenomenon, the one that Abby is talking about in this study where you're like, you can do this really well, you've clearly established it. And it also is giving you this tunnel vision toward a goal that you might want to be aware of. Because maybe if you were able to see wider, you might be able to see, well, I could take all that I have and do something different with it. I could make a life that maybe looks a little different, but my competitiveness is not allowing me to see those kind of creative alternatives that might be available. That's good. Okay, this is just blowing my mind because it's making me think of another question. This question is going to seem unrelated, but I feel like it's not. So here it is. This is another question from Stephanie. Okay, and Stephanie is saying, in relationships, how do you balance decision making when one person naturally takes the lead? Even in small things like what movie or TV show to watch, does every couple end up with a chooser and a follower? And what happens when the follower finally wants to turn and the chooser thinks they picked wrong? Okay. There's like a funny take to this. And then I feel like my mind's exploding right now. So I want to talk about a different take on it. But what are you laughing about right now? Because I feel like I know. Can I say? You could say, can I say how honest are we getting? Yeah, honestly. Okay, I think that says it all. Yeah. Abby just said, can I say, I am going to choose that you may say. In all fairness, I would like for you to say it. So you don't seem like an asshole for showing what an asshole she is? Yes. Okay. Yes. There's like a thing in our family where there's a couple members of our family who tend to be the people who care the most amount about the things that are chosen. And I shouldn't even say care the most amount. Are the most outwardly vocal about caring the most amount about things such as what movie we choose, what song we're going to listen to, where we're going to go, what we're going to do? There's a couple members of the family who tend to feel like they're going to die if what they feel like is the vibe isn't matched. Okay. Interesting. I know you're going with this. And they make everyone else aware that they feel like they're going to die. Yeah. Both vocally and energetically. Right. And so, I mean, I'm obviously going to be defensive of those people in our family who do that. What I will say is that it often creates a vibe where like siblings who maybe are in a sibling group where there's somebody like that, you can see over a period of time that they love that. They get a lot out of that. They kind of follow that. But also, they end up kind of sublimating their own desires and their own feelings because they feel like there's only so much air in the room to be taken. And those people can end up kind of walking on eggshells around the other person or just letting them lead, letting them lead, letting them lead until they forget that they have their own inner compass and that that other person is actually not their compass. And their voice matters as much as the other person's and their desires exist as much as the other person's. Exactly. And like, and I've mentioned this before, but I think it's such a good example is our youngest came home one day and she was what, 16? And she said, oh my gosh, you know what I figured out today? And we said what? And she said, the things Tish thinks are just opinions. And we said, what? She said, the stuff Tish thinks. It's just her opinion. It's not a fact. It's not the truth. She just has opinions. And Abby and I were like, we don't know. We thought what she said was fixed. This is also a revelation to us. But don't we all have that in our lives? Like people who we figure out, oh my god, that's not. I've been following everything they said because of their confidence, because of their drama, because of whatever. But actually, that's just one way to think and just one feeling to have. And I have just as many and I have to learn how to go inside and listen to myself. It's usually parents, right? You're usually 35 and you're like, wait, that shit was just what my parents thought. It's not necessarily the truth. Yes. So there's lots to talk about around this. But one thing that it makes me think of, which is actually quite sad, is that sometimes the chooser becomes so controlling of things. So for an example, Abby and I came to the relationship with kind of amazingly strong opposing ideas and approaches towards gift giving that both come from familial stuff. Are we going here? I'm not all the way. I'm not going all the way. I'm going halfway. Okay, folks. Which is complicated and weird to talk about because it's like gifts who cares. But it was like this one exchange that we would have that comes up every few months in a birthday or Christmas or whatever that really became almost traumatic. Because it was like everything, all of mostly my stuff wrapped up in this exchange that I would end up ruining it somehow. And a lot of that has to do with childhood stuff. In the receiving of a gift, you would ruin the process in the receiving of a gift because of the energy we're bringing to it. Right. It was like I read every single time I was going to receive a gift as the decider of whether I was seen and valued or really known. And then even worse than that, I would become so afraid that it wasn't going to be that, that months before, weeks before, I would start telling Abby exactly what the thing should be that would make me feel most known. Not like doing it in a million different covert ways, but protecting myself against the disappointment of the inevitable opening of the thing by controlling the shit out of what that thing was, which was a double jinx, hex magic spell confounding to Abby who wants to please me more than anything and wants me to have exactly what makes me feel most known and loved. But it also has a major love language, whatever the fuck those things are, of gift giving. Like really wants to do big things and big offerings. I'm extravagant. I love the extravagant. It doesn't make any sense kind of gift. And that has been quelled. Right. It's been quelled for so many reasons because of the controlling thing, because access scares me, because all of it, there's a lot wrapped up in it. And we've had so many hard moments about that to the point where recently on a very big holiday, we ended up both in tears on the couch with Abby saying to me, I feel like I failed you on this day. I feel like the reason I failed you is because I'm listening to you so hard because I'm trying to get it so right that I can't even be myself anymore in gift giving that I'm frozen. Because I'm so scared of getting it wrong that I'm doing nothing. It was just recent, so I'm still working through it. But I keep thinking about how I try to control everything to avoid disappointment. And when I think about the things in my life that have been the most magical and the most relieving in the world, I was thinking when Abby came into my life, it was not just like, oh my God, here's love and here's desire and here's this amazing thing. That it was the biggest relief in my life because it was not done by me. Because people who are like the Taylor Swift mastermind song who think that everything that is good that ever comes is because they have done it. They have choreographed. Yeah, they can't even enjoy their own life because I mean, asking for a friend can't even enjoy their own life because they're like, yeah, I made all this shit. All right, this is why it's good is because it was built by my blood, sweat and tears and I made the fucking plan. Yeah. And that is so disheartening and awful to be just a former baby who to have just been born 40, 50 years ago and to believe that I am God, that there's no greater thing that can be done if I haven't thought it up, if I haven't preemptively decided what it will be. So for someone like me to have a miracle walk into their life made me believe in God. It made me right sized. It made me feel like, oh my God, there's something else that's looking out for me that created this thing that I couldn't even dream up and I didn't plan. And when I think about the other things in my life that have been the most incredible thing, my sister, my children, my wife, the people in my life that I didn't make them. I didn't arrange them. They are made by something else and just given to me as complete miracles, as an expression of love that I didn't even know I wanted. I don't know myself well enough to know what will make my life magic. And so I'm making things so small and blocking the expression of love and then feeling unloved. And so what I think that is is like, you know how like we're in late stage capitalism? Like I'm in late stage choosing. Like when you're incredible, the most generous person in the world, the one who loves you more than anything, the best gift giver in the world sits across from you and says, I can't give you anything because you are blocking the thing. And I'm too scared to give to you because I'm too scared to show you how much I love you because I'm too scared that whatever I do will be wrong. You will decide is wrong. Then that is like late stage being the chooser. That's where it can go if you don't learn that sometimes someone else will pick a movie, that sometimes somebody else will decide a restaurant that will be better than the one that you had decided. So there's a lot of different kinds of ways of being the chooser and being the follower. And I think like if we talk about it from like watching a TV show or what do you want to watch tonight or what do you want to eat dinner? Like let's be a little bit like this is an everyday occurrence that's happening in people's real lives. What I noticed and part of like what was coming up for me when you were telling all of that, first of all, thank you for saying all that. Like that's interesting to me that that's what you've been thinking about. And I didn't know any of that. Really? Yeah, I didn't know you were thinking about all of it. And I think that it is important that we meet each other, that I am listening to you in a way that I'm still able to express my love because I think that that is the thing that I've been feeling like has been missing over the last many times that I make a notes app and I write down all the things that you say during the year. And then I do notice that you do throw some things in there at the end. And I still notice that you're not even happy when you open up, you know, the thing that you predetermined. There's no surprise in it. But in my experience, I've learned that that gets less negative reaction because then there's not disappointment. Like there's disappointment, but it's not the same kind of disappointment than me getting you something that you want to take back, which is a lot of things. Being the follower, there is a responsibility on my side of the table here because I think that you are really, it's incredible that you're like, yeah, like I want to maybe think about this and work on it and be in late stage of this. But I also have to be in commitment to be in late stage of being just the follower and feeling like the little confidence in myself to be like, hey, I want to take you to dinner, be ready at six o'clock. We're going to walk and not tell you and just show up somewhere and you just got to take it. And you've got to fix your face. And you've just got to be like, this is the way that this is okay, great. And yes, I will have siphoned my ideas through what I hope that you want. And I'm also siphoning it through not just what I want, but how I want to express the way that I feel because I do feel a reluctance. And I don't know, sister, if like you could relate to being the chooser or the follower, I probably do know. But being the follower, and I do mean this, there's a part of me that our little family's little cult, we're a little culture that I have known from the beginning that you have been the matriarch of this family and that I came in late to the game and I have been doing the vests that I can to be a parent here and we follow you and you've taken us to incredible places. And in my experience, when you have a lot of people in a family, it is best to have somebody who is leading, who is like the designated leader. And so I have taken more of like this follower role, which has been 100% fine. Now that the children are leaving the house and come July 12th, I do think that we need to reorient a little bit around what roles we're playing because I think that that will help us move forward in a different part of our marriage because I do think it takes orchestrating and engineering and architecting something different when the kids leave the house. Totally. And it's funny with people like me, like we want that so bad. When you're talking, I was thinking about those old movies where somebody just jumps out and then puts like formaldehyde on the person's face and then you just pass out on the ground. That's some version, some less violent version of that is like a secret wish of everyone who's like me, I think. And by the way, I just want you to know I am the most decisive person in our whole family. I know. And it's so funny. Like you are literally, I think that God is laughing so hard. Abby is the captain. Abby is one of the best leaders on the planet. Abby has been named one of times most influential people on the planet. Abby has led to Olympic victory, the most all time winning team on the planet. You're like, well, but she can't go to the fucking grocery store. I mean, I don't know if she can handle it. Is she going to be able to handle that? Anyway, I'm just pointing out the irony. Yeah. Yeah. What do you got, Sissy? I'm just doubling down on what you said. Like, I'm sure that there are a lot of griefs and confusion and sadness of the follower and also from the leader perspective, like I would just say that the only thing that a leader wants more than they want to lead is to not always have to lead. They very, very, very much want to lead and they very, very, very much want control and they very, very much want, you know, movement towards whatever the ideal situation is. And what they want more than any of that is to be able to not have to do it every time and have someone else lead towards the ideal situation. I know that in my bones, that it is exhausting. One of the reasons why it's interesting to look at a lesbian couple is because in so many heteros, like I should just say for the, many of my friends, the typical thing it feels like, which is ironic because what we're sold is the opposite, but it's just so funny. I mean, it's okay. So the typical vibe is that the woman is leading and doing all of the things and the husband is like, okay, well, I can't do anything because you're doing everything. And like this back and forth between like, if I stop, everything will stop. And the other partner saying, I can't step in because you're too controlling, you know, just that old. Nothing I do is ever good enough for you. So why should I even do it? And the other person is like, well, I wish you try. Or they are saying you're right. Nothing you do is ever good enough. Right. That is a correct assessment of what you do. Exactly. And that is the thing that is real. And that happens. And what's interesting to me about looking at us as like, if I can look at it from some distance, is that that is not what's happening here. That is not the situation. Like I am an example of someone who has an absolutely, not just as capable leader, but very arguably more capable of many things. And that absolutely would not let balls fall. And that absolutely is engaged. And I am telling you that this is still what is happening and can happen. If the type of person who is a chooser does not find a way to find that magical place where you are making things happen, but also letting things happen, where there's not some room, not because you are bad and should do it, but because you deserve to be surprised. Because you deserve to have magic step into your life that you didn't plan and plot and control. I know. And I just want to say at the end, this dynamic, I agree with you. And I agree that's theoretically possible. I also think what you're describing does not describe 95% of my heterosexual friends. That's what I'm saying. The relationships that they're in. Like, I just don't want to leave it as like women leaving and being like, your partner who doesn't know where to pick up after daycare, just let go and see if you could be surprised. No, I don't think that's what I was saying. I'm saying there's a very interesting dynamic or thing that can happen when you look at some roles that are outside of gender roles. Yes, because it's so easy to see things as just gendered and they often are. But what you're looking at now is not gendered and is a similar dynamic, which makes it sometimes safer and easier to look at and see differently. We're so like infused with weaponized incompetency and these antiquated roles that no longer fit the current. We're just in this period of, it's like puberty for progress in gender where we still have these old ideas of masculinity and femininity, but they're inverted on that most of my women friends who do the vast majority of the mental labor are also earning more money than their partners and it doesn't make any sense and nothing makes sense. And there's this kind of like inaccessibility to share things. And I'm sure like the half of things where that is like an actual real problem where people can't be trusted to do what needs to be done overshadows this other part that has been more built up and reinforced through that, that is the dynamic you're describing. You know what I mean? It's about trying and growing in a very overgeneralized way. Women work and grow and struggle and reach and try and because of all of that, they continue to evolve and they continue to grow. And men don't do that. That's what it looks like. That men don't try as hard and don't evolve and don't grow and then wonder why they don't know what to do and wonder why they're not on the same emotional wavelength as their partners or wonder why their children outgrow their emotional wavelength, wonder why they're lonely, wonder why there's a loneliness crisis. But loneliness happens when you slowly, slowly stop trying and stop growing so that the whole world moves on without you. I'm sorry, but that is what it looks like to me in homes, in relationships, in men dating 20-year-olds instead of being able to sit across from a table and have any 45-year-old woman actually take them seriously. It is because women keep growing and men do not. And then they wonder why they're not connected with their wives, why they can't connect with their children, why their satellites floating off and it's because they didn't do the work that it takes to stay in an orbit. Anyway, that's my take. Okay, we can do hard things. Good luck with that. Love you. Bye. We are proud to say that we can do hard things is an independent production brought to you by us. Treat media. Treat media makes art for humans who want to stay human. And you can follow us at We Can Do Hard Things on Instagram.