The Way to College Podcast - Ep 175 - John Espinoza Part II

Hi, this is Dr. Ossessa Luton. Hi, this is Dr. Ossessa Luton with another episode of the Way to College podcast. And when you last heard from us, we met John. John is telling us a little bit about his journey, but there was so much more to tease out. And so I invited John to come back and continue the conversation and learn more about his journey because it felt like we were just getting started and there was still so much more to go. John, when we left you or when we left our conversation, you told us you would apply to Wallace Stegner Fellowship at Stanford. So you were in the Bay Area. You were also teaching and you'd kind of hinted at some work that you were doing with undocumented students. Why don't we start there? Tell us about that experience. Yeah, so it was around 2005 that I needed some supplemental income to support myself in the Bay Area. I was working kind of from desk reception at a nonprofit that ran homeless shelters around the Bay Area. And I did work reception. I did data processing. At some point I started doing grant writing. But I applied through the recommendation of a friend of a friend to the National Hispanic University, which is a very small and private university. And of course, hardly anyone had heard of it, although it had been around. It was established in 1981 by Dr. Roberto Cruz. And of course, he established this university to, I mean, kind of to say reductively, to make sure that Hispanics and any minorities and women had access to education. Again, this is 1981, a little bit different even back then in 2005, but it was still very useful. So it was small and I was about 26 years old. I started as a faculty adjunct. You know, I think I started off with two classes. And this university, what's interesting about it, it's sort of like, it's kind of between a big university and a community college. So oftentimes I'd have my students, they were great students, they were very sharp, but they were not ready to say attend a major university or a big university, I should say. Maybe the experience is too overwhelming or and that also included kind of a community college. We, you know, we could have some really big campuses, you know, they didn't want to fall through the cracks and also some didn't maybe necessarily want a community college experience. So National Hispanic University was fully accredited and, you know, degree granting and certificate granting. The resources were limited, but it was it was very good for for people. And so maybe about a year or two teaching there, I, I mean, I'd like to say that I developed a reputation where folks had trusted me. And so when I started, and I was teaching, say, freshmen or sophomores two years later, they're, you know, juniors, they're seniors. And these were even primarily Mexican American students. And when they got to their junior year senior year, I'd ask them, oh, so what's next, like, you know, do you want to go to grad school, you know, let's let's talk. And then, you know, they finally confided me and they say, well, I can't. What do you mean you can't, you know, see some way that and they're like, no, professor, you know, I can't because I don't have a social security number. And, and it just, I don't know, I think even back then I was, I was still so very ignorant about undocumented children, because I know my father was undocumented but for for up to about 26 years of my life. I had never thought, I guess I always thought adults would cross. And then maybe somehow later bring their children, you know, documented or otherwise I've never really given in thought but I had never given it any thought that an adult would cross, you know, without papers and bring their baby with them. Like, it was unheard of to me. I mean, just kind of speak to it. If I was ignorant about it, can't imagine what everyone else was. So, a little by little, you know, there was these students that I knew very well that were very just sharp analytical thinkers and, and they'd confide in me and say yeah, me too, I don't have a social security number. You know, and I'm like, but how do you work, you know, how do you have this job is like, well, how do you think, you know. And so there were there were quite a group of them. And, you know, off the top of my head, I would think, you know, I'd say things like well, you know, how'd you gotta you know save some money and go see a lawyer. And they'd say, yeah, we've done that. And it doesn't work. They tell us the same thing like, you know, the way we landed here in the US. It's just not going to be possible. And I'm like, well, what about getting married, not necessarily in a, in a fake, you know, sham marriage and way but you know marrying their boyfriends girlfriends. And they're like, no, you know, like, for that to even happen, you have to like get married, like you have to get married in Mexico, you know, your home country. And then you know your citizen spouse then has to like, you know, sponsor you and whatnot. But if it doesn't work, then you're stuck, you know, we're stuck in Mexico. So they also told me how, even if you got married, they'd have to go through these intense interviews to to shake down if this is like a sham marriage. And so this is right around the time I mean I can't tell you when the Dream Act in California started, you know, in relation to this but I know the Dream Act was still, to me at least you know very very new thing so you know, we refer to them as as dreamers. And you know, I just didn't really have any, any answers for them. And they were at the National Hispanic University because it was a private university so they didn't require social security numbers. But it also meant that they were not eligible for the FAFSA was that the free application for student financial aid, I think that's what it's called. So they weren't eligible for that so they, you know, they'd have to, you know, get scholarships, you know, like folks and and businesses from around the Bay Area they you know opened up their wallets to for the scholarship fund. And that's how they they paid for their tuition or they they work for it and it was, you know, partial scholarships. And you know, I guess it was kind of like one of the first times I really felt helpless as a as an educator because I always had some sort of answer, you know, or at least someone to to direct them to but if they were interested in scholarships I could help them with that if they're interested in, you know, transferring I could kind of help them with that but and grad school advice but this I had, I had zero idea as as what to do. I mean nobody does nobody does today. And you know, obviously, you can get into the politics of all that. Yeah. And I think as a like one often often share with my students, because they'll, you know, I've been an higher at now 2223 years and my students are always surprised because they they they'll, I spend a lot of time talking to them and they talk about sort of that, you know, they might comment that a professor doesn't know how to teach and I remind them that a lot of faculty members never are never trained to teach right if they're coming directly from grad school where they're maybe studying writing or even even a science and stem field, but they haven't done any teaching and then they they're sort of their primary focus is to research or to, you know, write grants and things like that. And so the the challenging thing I think for you and for a lot of educators is one if you're not getting that training, that's one thing but then to compound that with all of these sort of social factors that yeah, like, you know, you feel like your hands are tied and and you know I'm struggling to kind of navigate and manage my classroom and ensure that kids are learning. Now I've got a kind of how do I deal with this, right because that's their reality and and that absolutely will impact whether or not they're in class and they're paying attention, and they're planning towards something greater or long term, but right that's, that's sort of where their minds at. So I can imagine how you feel and how you felt. And you know it's that's a you say that's where the mind is that and that's a good transition because the students that I worked with that had provided in me as they approached their their their senior year and in their senior year. The idea that they could not legally work after getting their BA was very hard for them it was like very psychologically tough. And that became a big part of their their mental health, it really, it really messed with them. And I think that's what that's something a lot of people don't don't think about it sort of like you leave high school and and I'm sure you've heard stories there are some people who who graduate from high school, they're about to apply for college and it's then that their parents say, Well, not so fast, there's something we need to tell you. But you know college, you know, I mean in California, I believe, as long as you graduate from a high school, you, you can go to university public university and pay in tuition. So they so it buys them bought for five years of time, but what people don't think about is what happens after that, you know, yeah and in reading these graduate fellowship applications you know there are DACA, it's a deferred action. The the the acronym is is I'm blanking on it. Yeah, yeah, but but yeah, no I know. You might have to edit this part out but I'll like listen to entries on the radio and people are throwing the acronyms I'm like well what's that mean so that's so many. There's so many today it's tough to keep up with him but yeah I know exactly yeah you're a it is it becomes psychological and and and and I am I will never forget and this was maybe 10, probably 10 12 years ago where I had a student who was incredibly gifted. He was a really outgoing, great student, but he said he was undocumented and he said what am I, why am I still here, and we you know he'd come by the office and we'd have these conversations and he had a family member who was who was sort of who was working on the other side of the you know doing some illegal things and he said why don't I just do that like yeah you know and and and know that I'm going to make some money and I can help my parents out my family out and and so it was this constant conversation right about just being hopeful and and and trying to convince him that the degree getting the degree what what pan out and he would have more opportunities down the road, but really not knowing for sure right I was just I was just trying to be hopeful as I think a lot of educators are when they're when they're trying to advise these students. How long now go ahead. I was gonna say and you know it is a good good advice because you know I had to face the same thing and it's like well why should I finish you know there's no future ahead of this and it's sort of like, because you don't know you know you don't know what could happen. You know you need to be prepared and these students I mean this is roughly you know 2008 you know between 2007 2009 and you know these students are also the ones who who were able to benefit from you know DACA. And you know they were right at that age, you know range where they weren't going to age out you know I feel bad for the folks you know who maybe didn't qualify through age but some of them I see on Facebook and you know they have jobs I don't know what their immigration status is today. But you know they have jobs and it was it was a good call to finish the degree. Yeah. Yeah I think I think a long term that's that's the advice that we want to give those students. You were you were there at the university for how long. About seven and a half years. Oh wow. I spent the same you got to see you got to probably with some of these students you, you got to develop some sort of long term relationships with them at least you're always aware of sort of what what was going on with them and right. I did. I did. Yeah, yeah. And then for about a one academic year I think was it one academic year I don't know how I was also retention specialist I got kind of pulled into that when we created a there was a first year experience program. That was created on a grant. They hired a first year experience director and they they had recommended me to be her retention specialist even though I was not trained at all it was sort of on the job training is just that I had a rapport with with the kids and at that time I think I was about 30. And I started, I guess, I started when I was 26. And, you know, the age difference between me at 26 and then the next faculty member was like 10 years or something. I was the one who could, you know, I guess really was, you know, close as an age to students. John, you. Here you are. You're a writer, you're a poet. Now you're an educator at this point during this phase. Now you're a retention specialist and and I'm very familiar with that. I think. So my, my final three years at the head of UTRGV I oversaw the first year experience course. And I was the director of the program. And again, I think it was because I kind of, I was with the program as it grew. And didn't have any formal training, but I did. I had a good rapport with students. And I know what you mean about right. Oh, the students really like this guy. Right. You know, I think you'd make a great retention specialist. I am to absolutely understand that. But here you are. You're taking on these, these various roles. And are you is your frame of mind. Are you looking long term? Are you looking down the road? Do you have a family at this point? You know, what else is going on in your life that that does it? Does it do you shift in terms of, oh, this is work that I want to do long term? Or is it I'm always a writer. I've always been a writer. And that's really where my heart is. And you kind of put us in what was your frame of mind that year that you become the retention specialist and then move us forward. So, you know, I become a retention specialist and, you know, I'm there for maybe a year, maybe even, even less. And part of it was a little bit of burnout because I was holding down this full time job and they still wanted me to teach a class in the evening. So I saw and then that comes with I mean going in and teaching is nothing but it's the prepping and the, you know, the grading. And so that's kind of why I had left that. But at that point, I kind of I kind of felt like I like this university, you know, I think this university is for me, you know, aligned with my own values. You know, I would like a full time position and I would, you know, hint about full time positions. But it was never available because of, you know, you needed a line number for that right you needed the money so it was never available. So I was there full time teaching full time full load but not as a full time status. But I would have been there's a point where I would have been happy just being a full time professor there. And so what happens is sort of what when you just don't know what life how life is going to take you I believe I'm married at that point I'm new I'm newly married. Yes, I want to have a family but it's still kind of in a kind of distance, you know, being a full time professor would be a good thing, especially with the money and the benefits. I'm not making a lot of money as an adjunct, you know, so that that has an effect, you know, I'm living in the most expensive place in the world in San Jose. I'm making very little, you know, little money. So that kind of has an influence on one's decisions. So how do I put it, so what you don't see coming is that when when the recession hit in 2008, the university also took a hit. So they they were struggling financially, you know, they had the lowest tuition you can have for a private school like you know they had a charge, you know that 25, 30, 20, 25 $25,000 but they didn't it was much less than that. And it wasn't enough to sustain itself it relied a lot on fundraising. And so after the recession, it really took a hit I mean there are right things are never that simple, but they really took a hit and then one of their their ideas of getting out of their financial jam is to sell the name to a for profit educational institution I think it was Walden. And Walden special was for profit specialized like one for online learning, and they had the idea that if we could because National Hispanic University owned their building. So they didn't sell the building it was just like selling the name. And so Walden thought well you know Hispanic Hispanic population is you know booming there's a lot of money to be made this is a great you know this is the great investment great business move. And so they they sold the name to Walden University, and then Walden universities from universities people from like Boston would come down then so we had these like folks on corporate now, coming down and making their changes and they're going to do this and that. And then I, and it was at that point where I kind of decided I didn't come here to work for a for profit, you know, corporation I've been here very long, you know long time. Full time position ever came up. You know I think I'm done here you know I think I'm a move on. And so I left, and I left to to work full time. My wife had gone her masters and, and she was getting paid very well after she got her masters. So I was writing full time for a year but you know you need to incomes in in San Jose so so I decided to go back to teaching, except I went to another private which was Santa Clara University. But you know you, I guess to answer your question one sentence like you sort of have these plans, and then sometimes these external forces, you know, think otherwise right so it's not necessarily always your choice sometimes someone makes that choice for you in a weird way I mean I guess I made the choice but I had to choose between two two values that I didn't think I was ever going to choose between. And I appreciate you talking about that right I think because I think so many of us have these plans and how we love our lives to turn out the things that we want to do in the careers that we want to pursue but right sometimes there are these external forces that are going to kind of impact our decision making and my delay or might even present new opportunities for us. And so I appreciate you talking about that you continue teaching your teaching at Santa Clara University how long are you at Santa Clara. I think two academic years. I think at that point, you know, I kind of decided that maybe teaching was not not for me. And I like I guess not teaching but the profession. How come. I for me it was. Physically it was the grading I spent too much time grading I spent too much time prepping. You know my colleague I mean I teach the same class over and over I mean maybe not literally but it was you know same class and you think that I just would have, you know, everything already in the can and everything done up and part of it was that but I just kept improving my syllabus trying to improve syllabus introducing new readings and that meant more work. And then I just felt like my colleagues were just, you know they had where experience you know as opposed to a first year, you know, teacher but I feel like they were coasting. And I was never coasting. And then I'd spent too much time grading, because there's just this part of me that just didn't like grading folks you know passing down that judgment. So I really had to prove that no this is a B minus paper. And so I felt like I had a like really, you know, you know, really point out the flaws, you know why this is B minus paper, you know, or a C paper, or a minus whatever. And then I'd like correct every grammatical mistake, and it just took too long, you know, it just took me away from from my life. And it was kind of a job I just didn't want to do that, you know, I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life. And I just couldn't simplify my lesson plans. You know, I just couldn't simplify I was just putting in too much too much work. So around that time, you know, this is 2014 and, you know, we're about to have our first baby. And everything's expensive in the Bay Area everything's in San Jose. So it was sort of this like, you know, again, talk about things you never thought about but you know we just decided it was best that I'd leave teaching take a break and raise my daughter, you know, at least for a year. And then decide to go back or whatnot, but that year flies by, you know, you got to reapply like six months later and that, you know, you missed that because you're busy being a new parent. And then so your flies by, you know, we're near to and then, you know, we're going to have a second, you know, child, a boy and it's sort of like, well I can't go back now. And I just kind of, you know, I just never went back to academia. You know, I guess I started doing the consulting sort of the or there was the genesis of the consulting work. You know, in that time period. And so this is 15 2014 15 at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Are you still living in the Bay Area? Do you know what? Yeah, we're still living in the Bay Area. And we know we shouldn't live there, but These are those external factors telling you you need a move, but you're not paying attention to exactly. Exactly. Yeah, it is these external factors. We shouldn't be living there. We are we, you know, we, we like it. I mean, you can't beat the weather. You can't beat the resources. Yeah. But you know, you're also, you know, everyone's working like two jobs. Everyone has a side hustle. You know, I was telling I think my my hairstylist that back then we had everyone had a side hustle before side hustle was even like, you know, a household term, you know, everyone has a second job. And so we were living in a house, we're renting a house for like seven years that like flew by Kimberly, we were there for seven years, you know, we got two years after we got married and then we our children were there and the landlord decided to sell the house to buy another property in Oregon. And, you know, it gave us 60 day, you know, notice, you know, extended to 16 days. And, and we were it was rent controlled so we were paying under market and it's like well how to go from a rent controlled, you know, a house to something that is not market like where do we come up with that extra $1,000 this is now the year 2018 and we tried to look for something and we couldn't find anything and we almost got roped into a housing scam, because you know when you're desperate you know you're willing to believe anything. And we didn't find anything so we just kind of, you know, pull that parachute, you know, chord and, and decided to move to Texas my wife is from Texas, and from the real Grand Valley and I was from I met her in San Antonio I was familiar San Antonio so we decided to make some San Antonio or our next home. The, you know, I am along the way as you brought us through your journey. I love, because I think this is common for a lot for most of us right. And I, and I, you know, I want to take this slight tension because I always tell my students are my students and I don't know if you saw this with your students at the university. They're so eager to grow up. Right there were so eager to find their dream job and and start their lives and get married and things. But nobody tells them about sort of how difficult it is to, you know, finding a place to live and then you know you talk about right the rent control place and market value and, you know, here you are potentially getting roped into a housing scheme right and, and so just all of the sort of the traps, and all of the information, and just sort of the things that that now as an adult you always have to be aware of, and you're constantly like, Oh, what's that? What does that mean and how, you know, right? And so I appreciate you talking about that. The, you decide you're going to move to Texas, your wives from Texas you're familiar with the San Antonio area. And again, as you're looking to move. What are you thinking about in terms of work. I'm not because when we moved. You know, I tell people, you know, because I was still taking care of my kids as well. Yeah. And when we moved, my daughter was for, and my son was three. So we still had at least one year for for my daughter to enter kindergarten and then another two years for my son to enter kindergarten. And I was kind of, you know, what would be be free but anyways, I was I tell people that I don't have traditional or conventional employment is like, you know, like I work but it's not conventional in employment. So I knew, but, but yeah, at that time when we moved I wasn't thinking of of work necessarily and again it was supposed to be that Texas was cheaper right that we're supposed to be able to live on one income and it turns out that's not necessarily true. It's not true anymore, especially after the pandemic and the inflation that followed. And, and so what what happened was that I guess after my kids, you know, went to school and I was helping Sandra as the author with her poetry for many years. And she was a book woman without shame or poetry book woman without shame came out. And, and she's just so so lovely because she would tell people that I was her reporting for poetry coach. And she would tell people you need an editor go see john. And, and through through her and I know Macarena Hernandez was a pivotal but they would, they would send me writers who needed some editing on on their work. And I said, Yeah, you know, I have the time to do that, you know, I have experience and so they'd send me someone who just yeah needed some some edits and I do it for pay. And it just kind of like took off from there. You know, I, this was maybe now two and a half years ago and it kind of hasn't really stopped, stopped since. And, and in other ways it's sort of going back to teaching because I'm grading, but it's not necessarily the kind of grading with the judgment, because I'm just helping the book get get better, but it's that's kind of the irony but I love it. I love doing it I love what I do. You know, I love helping other writers kind of like help them see the book that they're looking to to have, you know, that you're trying to get so. But no, it just kind of happened organically. That's the thing it did my dream job almost, you know, I guess I could think of other cooler things that pay a lot more and do a lot less work as a job but you know it really is a kind of a love what I'm doing and it's a dream job and it all happened sort of organically. Yeah. So a couple of things John thank you. The first is you just, you had a serious name drop you were like oh and so I've been Sandra season. Yeah, right for years now. So one, I'm going to want to know is I think that our listeners and our viewers are is that one how did you make how did that connection happened because I'm sure it's not like, let me drop Sandra season it was an email and say hey you need help with your poetry can I help you right. It doesn't happen like that. So there's that that question. But then the second question is you talked about how you love the work that you're doing. And I think, um, sort of, you know, and we can get into this, you know, with the final few minutes but we often tell people right. You know, tell your passion, you know, do what gives you joy and fulfillment and I think for for I don't know many young people that know what that is. And I feel like you don't know what that is until you've had you've kind of lived a little bit and you've done different things and so I think your story is a is a is is just such a great example of that. So you're doing all of these different things, filling various roles, along the way there you're still writing you're still creating. And now it's it's sort of like a like a combination of the teaching and of the creative aspect and helping others get better with their work and so we can talk a little bit about that but let's tell us about how did you get connected with Sandra she's in the middle. Well, I'm just as surprised as you are, if that was a surprise just as surprised as you are. So I met, you know, I won't make this long story but I met Sandra when I was in my first semester at my MFA program. I had flown into Phoenix to do a reading in, in my Tucson and my program coordinator had been invited to have lunch with her and the host, her host in Tucson. I was in a theater in Tempe and my program coordinator couldn't make it. So she said why don't you go in my place. So, so originally that's how I met her so I was, you know, freshly minted 22 years old first semester my MFA program. And then I saw Sandra, you know, she's just so generous and she actually had offered to write a blurb for a chat book that I was getting published, you know, the in it. I met her in 2001 and early 2002 I was going to have a chat book published and she offered to write a blurb. And then in 2004 I met her again at the Macondo Writers Workshop. You know, I saw her again and she remembered me and it was kind of like seeing an old friend even though I didn't really know her very well but it was like seeing an old friend. And then you know, I saw her, you know, for few more years after that the Macondo Writers Workshop. You know, she has so many friends, she has so many fans, you know, I just figured I was just another one of them. And so part of the surprise is that yeah around 2014, I think maybe first starting 2012. When I was working, I had started working in San Clara, you know, she dropped me an email and said, Hey, I have a poem. You know, here, you know, she was she hadn't been writing poetry for a while. And she says, I have a poem here. Would you look at it and in kind of give me some feedback on it. And I was like, excuse me, what? Like what am I to do? What am I to do? What? You know, like me? Like, why me? And I mean, I didn't tell it this this is going through my head and I'm like, is Richard Blanco not available? And you know, Richard Blanco was the inauguration, the presidential inauguration poet for President Obama's second inauguration and Richard and Sandra are good friends and I'm like, is Richard not available? Like why? And he probably was not available. But yeah, and so she asked me to do this, you know, to give her feedback on a poem and I did. And you know, I felt very confident about the feedback that I gave. I just not very comfortable giving feedback to a MacArthur genius and the author of House of Mango Street. And I didn't hear from her after that. You know, I thought it was kind of maybe a one in done deal and then in, I want to say 2014 if my memory serves right, she asked me if I can read some or give her feedback on some poems. And then she said that part of her contract with Kanaf is a book of poetry. And so she, you know, needs to get on it. And if I would, I'd be willing to help her as a poetry her poetry coach. And so she'd write poems and she'd send them to me and I'd give her feedback and, you know, it was just kind of, you know, talk about organic because I didn't know what the plan we had no plan. It was just like, it was me agreeing to, to give her feedback on poems. And that went on for eight years, eight years, you know, just, you know, sometimes I didn't hear for her for a few months and then sometimes she'd send me like 10 poems in a month. And it wasn't until the pandemic hit, everything got shut down that that it was near the, you know, she had enough to complete a collection and she just, you know, sat down and and finished the rest of it. And that was 2001. And then the book came out in 2022. And next thing I knew I had been doing this. I mean, I guess she asked me to help her finish the book like eight years prior. And then she asked me for the first time 10 years before, but I never planned that. And I told no one, you know, I didn't tell anyone I thought it was a very private thing. I moved to San Antonio and a friend of mine, Natalia, thought of being like, Hey, so I heard your Sandra's poetry coach. I'm like, where did you hear that? This is secret information where, you know, you tapping my phone. No, Sandra was telling people. And I was like keeping it a secret out of like privacy. Wow. So yeah, that's how that happened. Wow. So, you know, John, you tell you told us but just just after that that you, you love the work that you're doing. So it's safe to say today you are a writing consultant. If I had to, we had to give you a give you a formal title is that would that be the title and a writing consultant or yeah, that seems to, you know, I could never settle on title that seems to be like more of a clear one, you know, I I'll call my people call me an editor, I'll call myself an editor, but that can also mean anything. You know, and so yeah, I kind of go by writing consultant. I just establishes the kind of work I do and the position that I have, you know, independent and has to do with the writing. Literary consultant is a fancy one. I'm talking to fancy people. But you've, but this is work clearly work that you love. Yes. Yeah, I love doing it. You know, I just, it's, I'm too obsessive. I have too much of an obsessive mind and to like, you know, help someone with the writing from anything from grammar to like story, story structure to kind of get it right. And then it's, and if I can't because it becomes a puzzle to solve like how can we make this book work. Yeah, and I get obsessed with it. You know, because every puzzle has has a solution, you know, the solution. 20 years ago, we go back 20 years, right? So 2004. Could you imagine you being in the position that you're in now working with the folks that you're working with. Absolutely not. You know, in 2004, I assume that I would have been a full time professor at a university full time creative writing professor at a university showing up to class half the time, collecting a big paycheck. Not showing up to my office hours. That was a dream. It's collecting this is after 10 years to collect in a paycheck. That's the job I want. But it turns out that that's not the way it really is. And then things become, you know, I guess things kind of sometimes make that decision for you. You know, when I was getting ready to graduate, there were plenty of creative writing post baccalaureate fellowships that I applied to. I didn't get any of them. And I was so surprised because I feel like I was well accomplished and publications and everything. Like I thought I checked all the boxes. You know, minorities, you know, before I was a minority before, you know, things really took off and, you know, these places were looking to bring in more minority, you know, writers. And yeah, I just I'd never landed anything right after after grad school. And, and I think I mean, who knows, right, because the process of getting selected for something is so complicated about, you know, things that you don't even realize, right. But I should have gone more help. I should have gone more help from professors writing these applications, man. You know, you just, if you've never done it, you're probably even never done it before you're probably not doing it right. You know, you know, professors, they've done it, they've written successful stuff. They know, they know what to tell you. You know, they know what to say in your application. Yeah. Yeah. John, thank you again for for your story and for walking us through and sharing so much of your life with us as we as we wrap this up as we conclude any final words for our listeners out there. Yeah, you know, I had some final words that were said by your other guests like, you know, Cecilia Bayee and Mike and I are now this and you know, like, ask for help reach out to get help. Really, they're if you've never done it before, you know, at your professors, your TAs they've done it, you know, at reach out for help. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone would be happy to help you. One that you said is that when if you're looking for for your calling in life, there are probably jobs. Let's put, you know, be redundant. They're probably jobs that aren't even invented yet. That you're going to be absolutely great at doing yourself, but you need to be prepared. You know, you need critical thinking skills and you need writing skills, you know, and both of those are easily learned. You know, they're much easier than people think. So those were two I had until I heard you and your guests, you know, say these things. So the more tangible final words of you allow me, Jose, is to read an essay called the seven lesson school teacher by John Taylor Goddow. And you can find that essay in his book called Dummying Us Down, the hidden curriculum of the compulsory schooling. And in your podcast, I've heard you and your guests talk about the hidden curriculum. Well, that's great. Yeah, the hidden curriculum. So it's by John Taylor Goddow, J O H N Taylor with the Y Goddow G A T T O. It's called a seven lesson school teacher. It changed my life. It changed the way I think about education and it really motivated me to take control of my own education. And the second kind of practical word of advice is another book that I would recommend reading is called Never Split the Difference. Negotiating as if your life depended on it by Chris Boss, the OSS and Chris Boss formally was the FBI's head hostage negotiator. And you got to learn how to negotiate. And I'm not talking about negotiating in in like a sleazy car salesman, you know, way with pressure, you know, and not taking no for an answer. And Chris Boss is Chris Boss is I guess style is essentially breaks down to being a listener and having empathy. You know, there's more to it, but it's about listening and being empathetic, you know, it's not about high pressure cells, cells, men's ship. And, and you're going to have to, if you want to be successful, you're going to have to ask for things. You're going to have to ask for opportunities. And one example I can think of is Cecilia Bayee. When she said she was like, you know, 17 and she was getting like flown into Stanford and she called Harvard and Harvard told her no. Yeah. And I'm like, wow, I mean, the guts on her to call. I never would have done that 17 call Harvard, even though I did call the FBI office for an application. But, you know, obviously I'm not doing Monday night quarterbacking, but you know, you're going to have to ask for these things and you're going to need to know you need to be ready with what you're going to say and you're going to have to expect that the first answer is no. And then where do you go from that that no, you know, how do you get get around that because people's first natural conservative reaction and answer is no, because they haven't thought about it yet. So they're going to tell you no. And, you know, so yeah, I recommend that book never split the difference, you know, you know, students should brush up on their negotiating skills. But yeah, that's it. Don, thank you. I'm going to check both of them out. I did hear an interview with Chris boss on a podcast. It was fascinating so much. There's so much wisdom there. And and I'll check out the essay that you recommended because I think like to your point you said it changed your life and you took ownership of your education and I often get asked about the themes that have emerged from these conversations and I tell people a theme that I didn't count on. I expected certain things. But one thing that I didn't count on was that so many of my guests talk about this moment when they decided, okay, I need to take ownership of this. Yeah, and and for some of them it was like middle school, like a sort of absent of mom and dad kind of in their own sort of head like, okay, you know what I don't like the situation and I'm going to take ownership of it. And then for others it comes later but that moment of deciding like, okay, I need to take ownership is so powerful and so critical. And so thank you. Thank you. And what I'll do is, if you don't mind, feel free to send me a link to the to the text and I can add it in the show notes. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you for for having me on. You know, very, very flattered and and enjoy talking to you. You know, you have it. You really dried out of me. So I appreciate that. Thank you. This concludes another episode of the way to college podcast. Thank you to our guests. Thank you to our listeners out there and viewers and you know, don't forget to subscribe, break, follow all of that good stuff and do us a favor and share the podcast with one other person. We'd appreciate it. Thank you. We'll see you again soon. Bye bye. You