Why Money Conversations Matter Early in Dating ft Vivian Tu

Hello and welcome to the U.A. podcast. I am Jared Freed. It is week one of Jordana's maternity leave. And so we're going to have guests here every week to like change it up. And we're very excited to have new to the podcast, a very special guest. You know her as your rich BFF. She has a new book that is out right now called Well Endowed. Vivian, too, thank you for coming on the show and being our first maternity leave guest. Of course. Thanks for having me. How are you? What's going on? What's the haps? Generally. Give me your general vibe. You know, listen, I'm booked and busy. Everything is great. I just got back from Japan. How is Japan? That is like the place people. Like Japan's like a little bit Tulum-ish right now. Like there was a moment where Tulum was like the place. Everyone's going. Cartagena. You know, these places become in vogue for a certain generation. How old are you? I'm 31. You're 31. So I'm 40. You start to hear these things. We're on the similar algorithms. Japan seems to be like the place that every young woman says to me, I gotta go to Japan. Every single person I know right now is traveling to Japan. Yeah. It's so funny. And I feel like it's just because social media has now made it so accessible that you can see what all of your friends are doing. So then you kind of like copy their trips. But we really wanted to go because I just wanted to eat. I have no other hobbies. So we did sushi. We did yakitori. We did teppanyaki, shabu shabu, like everything you can think of, we ate. And the whole thing with their food in Japan, seemingly from afar, I've never been. It seems like it's like done meticulously. Like there's like a there's a dedication to the craft in a way that like us Americans sit here and go, I don't know, they throw some slop on a plate here. It doesn't seem like we appreciate it. I went to Copenhagen, and I remember going to the hotel, and the hotel – I remember the furniture being so kind to my eyes. Just the look of the furniture was – the architecture was so pleasing visually. I don't know. It felt like I had a huggy around my eyes for some reason. Is that the same kind of feeling when you go to Japan? Is that what you want out of it? You want someone to go, this is like, I heard of this thing about Japanese pizza. Japanese pizza is apparently like done like scientifically. Like I feel like they will take any food and Japan it. Meaning like they will improve every single ingredient. They'll cook it with tweezers instead of just like slopping it all together. And it's like perfect. You know, and there's good and bad to everything. Like I don't, I think if my whole life, everything was done with tweezers, I would want, you know, Mama Celeste pizza. from Ohio who has been making the recipe by, you know, her imagination her whole life. Like there is good and bad to both sides of it. But I do understand like the when you go as a visitor, you're like, oh, this is everything is just math and done correctly. And I do think us as a generation, you being younger than me, but I think we crave efficiency. We love ordering the Uber, knowing it's going to get to our door right when we know it will be there. We can go, hey, it's one minute away. The DoorDash guy is on his way. I'm looking at his bike on the screen. So is that kind of like how it feels? Yeah, I do feel like one thing that I miss so much about the U.S. is like in Japan, everything has a line. Like you have to queue up for everything. And in America, you don't really do that. Like you can either have it delivered to you. They obviously have delivery too, but I wasn't savvy enough to get it done. When you're visiting somewhere, getting delivery to the hotel doesn't really have a – But I will say I just like – it was worth the wait. Certain things were very much worth the wait. So you get in line for certain food places. Like there's no reservation system. It's like there's a line. Get in it. Yeah. You'll be done. And I'm sure the line, it's kind of – I would assume it's a little bit comforting to know, yeah, this place moves. Yeah. Like 10 minutes in the seat, get out, next up, next up. And their efficiency, just Japan just rings that for me. So you go to Japan with who? I go with my husband. Husband. I knew you were married just from your social media. Tell us about – so you and your husband, this is a dating show. We're going to get into some dating questions. People, if you're listening, if you're watching on YouTube, thank you for sticking with us. I know sometimes when your regular show gets like zhuzhed up a little bit, change up, I would assume everyone who listens and loves this show knows how happy we are for Jordana and is like going to stick with us here. But we want to just like make sure we care for you. Listen, we're doing the same show. We have the emails. We have the games. We have the icky or picky red flag or deal breaker. We're going to do all that today. But I want to know your relationship. Like what – your husband, how long have you been married? How did you meet? Where did you meet? What's going on? Okay. So we've been together for like eight and a half years at this point. Eight and a half years. So this is like post-college. Let's get into it. Yeah. Post-college, we met as young professionals in New York City. Okay. We've been married for about a year and a half now. Good for you. Congratulations. Thank you so much. He did good, right? Look at that ring. Holy. You are my rich BFF. That's right, baby. Oh, my God. So he was finance guy, too. He was in finance. And we met because he worked on the same team as my girl roommate at the time. And I crashed one of their events. like for their team sure got obviously way too drunk um we had a very fun dance floor make out love it and then we didn't speak for six months like didn't trade numbers did not connect nothing and then six months later of course as you know luck would have it ran into him again at another bar and we you know we remed and he was like you know haha like we've kissed before right um and we just ended up hitting it off and we actually did what i like to call like the triple dipper date which is you go on a date and then you consistently go on a date for like the next three days or the next two days so you have friday saturday and sunday right and it's been history ever since that's great that can go both ways you know what you know the friday date that turns into saturday and sunday turns into hey i'm just really busy right now that was you just hit me during a Yeah, I don't know. It can go all ways. Like I, there are those, you know, the story that you hear is one way or the other. You know, you either hear, and now married ever since. I will say. Couldn't get rid of him since that weekend. I will say this was a different time. I feel like dating has always been tough, but like it was less tough when I was dating. Now I hear some of my friends' dating stories, and it seems like it is a toxic waste dump. out there. Like everybody's just ghosting each other. Nobody wants to commit. Everybody's looking for the next best thing, swiping, swiping, swiping. And like people aren't actually taking the time to like get to know people, which sucks. Well, I don't, I, you know, listen, this was eight years ago that you met your boyfriend. I'm 48 years ago. I was in this game as well. And I was in the game before that. I don't know. I think I, I, I don't disagree with you that I think that we're hearing more about the toxicity. I think there's easier ways to do a story time and let people know and get on a hashtag dating and say, I don't know if it's worse or better. I just, you know, it's, I think it's always going to be difficult when you're not meeting the right people, you know, like, and then it's not difficult all of a sudden. It's not difficult. Right. You know, and you know that like it's difficult as you stop looking, it's not difficult. Well, as soon as you find someone you go wow this was really easy yeah like oh that's what happens when you find a match right you know like oh wait a minute there is no fighting there's no confusion yeah because you're both on the same page we're on a different page with someone of course it's hard of course it's difficult like but i so you guys meet on the i i like the idea of meeting making out and then reconnecting yeah because i i think for that that story that's basically like that's the same as we matched on a dating app before and nothing ever happened right you know like if you want to like because people get so down the apps and they're like i matched and they didn't talk to me but like you kissing someone at a bar and then you guys don't talk again that's the same as matching and not talking sort of but i also think it was like what's the um there's like the scientific thing that like you have to see someone's face like a certain number of times and then you'll like them more maybe i just liked him more the second time maybe well maybe more motivated more you know the timing's right that was just a make out you know sometimes we like down ourselves you know you have that make out you're like oh that was just us being sloppy like who gives a shit and then you come back and you're like under different weather and circumstances we were more sober the second time that helps that very helpful now did you date before like did you go on the apps were you you know how old were you when you guys met so how old was i i think i was like 23 20 23 yeah 23 And you're working in finance. You're on the desk. You're doing Wall Street trading. Yeah. So I was a trader on Wall Street and I was dating. I was on the apps. I think definitely had a couple matches here or there on the apps. But also because so many of my friends worked in the same industry, we would kind of just date each other's coworkers. Right. It was kind of the easier thing to do. This is the thing. This is the hard part about getting older. And that's why you're hearing more horror stories. Yeah. Because when you're 23, let's all go out. The group is wide. The group is big. You know, like it's friends. You know, like it's like that's that's the thing. Like it's it's so funny. You're like, it's got it's got to be harder now. Well, yeah, of course. Half of you have gone away and gotten married. Right. And some of you have kids and some of you have kids. And now the group is smaller. You know, there's not these randos that are doing, you know, that are highly motivated, highly successful looking to make out and then wake up early and go make some money on wall street right you know now you've got a few people that are a little bit jaded you know i've been through a breakup so look i i know this is again it's like it's so funny like we can all say how bad and horrible it's like i mean listen i'm 40 and single and perfect i'm putting you my rolodex This is my favorite hobby. I mean, listen, people have tried before. This is not – you're not – Okay, but come on. But even my reaction to you saying I'm going to fix you up – Right, because I go – at this point, it would be like – like I have to meet like someone that I immediately consider my best friend. Right. And that – chances are low. I don't want to meet anybody. Right. Like I meet someone new. I'm like, I don't know. I got my people I text. I got my go-tos. Again, we want comfy cozy. Change is so tough. Hard. So you guys start dating. You're 20 – how old? You're 27 when you make your move to social media, creator, finance. I mean like how is that weigh on the relationship? So I think I must have been – what was it? Four or five years ago. So yeah, I was probably like 26, 27 when I started social media. Who was harder to tell that you want to take this new endeavor? Your now husband or your parents? Parents for sure. Parents for sure. Because you know what? The social media thing was never meant to be like, oh, I'm a creator. Like I started posting finance content on social media to help my coworkers at work. So they would stop harassing me during the workday. And they thought it was going to be like a fun little thing. First video. Why were they harassing you? Because they knew that I had come from Wall Street and I was at this new media job. And so now they were like, oh, you have a finance background. You're going to help me rebalance my 401k. Why did you go from finance to media? Because when I left the industry, I felt like I was not in a position to succeed. I started my career under this manager. She was amazing, taught me everything I knew, still mentor of mine, was at my wedding. But then they hit like the desk pivoted. Basically, the head of the desk got fired. That fired a bunch of other people on the team when they brought in the new guy. Can you go back up for a second? Because I've been – I live in New York and I lived in New York for 18 years. So I've come across a lot of finance people. Yeah. The desk. The desk. The team. Like let's start at the desk. What is that? Because I think like – I hear that. It's kind of like an area of Brooklyn. I go, oh, cool. And I just act like I know where it is. I don't know where any area of Brooklyn is. I don't care. The desk. When I hear the desk, I've been hearing this since minute one being in the city. What's the desk? The desk is just the team that you work with. And the reason it's called the desk is because when you're in trading, you sit on like a floor. It's like a very, very large open area. And it's one massive conjoined desk that the entire team sits at. And are you trading one product? Are you like – Yeah, exactly. You guys work on one specific type of finance. Is that like what it is? So I traded equities, a.k.a. stocks. Okay. So you're doing stocks for a fund? Is it a family? So I'm at JPMorgan. Whose money are you playing with? Yeah, so I'm at JPMorgan, meaning I'm on the sell side. So I was trading on behalf of hedge funds, asset managers, insurance companies, all of that. And I was basically like – they were our clients and I was providing them a service. Now that so different than personal finance Yeah So you go to a media company You like okay the desk has changed I going to go into media You start working this new media job All your coworkers are like please help me I don't know how to do my 401k. How do I allocate it? You know, now you're in personal finance land, which is like retail compared to like you're doing wholesale. Well, but because I had had that incredible mentor, she had really guided me through my personal finances because she was the first rich Asian woman I had ever met. And I was so impressed. And she was like, are you contributing to your 401k? Are you using the company catalog to save on hotels? Are you doing all of these things? And I wasn't doing any of them. So she gets me right. And I'm there. And once I feel like I have my money in a really good spot, that's roughly when the tide turned. And I ended up leaving, going to BuzzFeed. And at BuzzFeed is where all of my new coworkers were asking me the same questions I was asking her. So now I suddenly had the answers for them. And I felt like as I started to make more money and save more money and invest more money, I became like more into the personal finance space because it felt like a way to just like ultimately get what I wanted out of life. Right. How do I how do I take this extra money and make it like work a little harder for me? Yeah. Find those deals. I'm trying to retire as early as possible. Like people don't get that. Like I do not want to work hard. I want to lay down. You're done. Yeah. It's over. I want to make my money work really, really hard. I do not want to work very, very hard because I can only work, let's call it 14 hours a day before my body breaks down, my head starts to hurt. But your money can work 24-7. Right. So like why not? I used to sell life insurance. And I remember when I did that, there was a guy who used to – on the subject, his big advice was always make the mailman work for you. And he was like send mailers. He's like that. now the mailman for 25, you know, 40 cent stamp is now your coworker, you know, now someone who works for you. And you're like, and I always thought that concept was very interesting. That idea that like, okay, how do I make sure that there are these people out there that are unknowing to them, you know, have no idea that they're out there on my behalf. And I, I actually think it relates to dating because what, you know, I always, I think a big part of dating and the thing people forget, you're looking at me going, I'm putting you in my Rolodex. Like, that's very nice of you. I think that's great. I think you might actually take, you would actually do that. Maybe you meet someone that you go, you know, I just did this podcast with this loud, annoying, chubby Jew. And I really think you would be a match for him. Maybe you do that. I feel like we got to work on the PR spin of how we describe you. That might have been someone's porn category that I just described. You don't know. Okay. Okay. Some people are into that. So listen, I'm just trying to differentiate. But I'm saying, you know, you might do that, but I think your husband would never do that for me. Like your husband wouldn't listen to this podcast and go, I got to fix that guy up. He would never do that. I just know I would never do that. So I think just men don't do that. So how do I make your husband work for me? So I, as any single person, my biggest advice, and this is on the subject, like let's take finance related to dating. Go make the husband work for you. go hang out with vivian and her guy who's on a desk with a bunch of other men and make him and a husband's never gonna fix you up a husband's gonna go you know you know who's cool you know you know who's actually can i tell you something though please my husband would never set anyone up because he has openly admitted he's like my single friends probably not dateable all dirt bags or it's like all of the friends that he would recommend to someone they're married here's here's again you're just in no land i'm not asking him to fix anyone yeah okay i'm asking him to go oh yeah they're cool that's all i'm asking all you want is just a little green flag a little green flag yeah because that's all a husband's gonna do your husband's never gonna set someone up what you're asking what you just said never gonna happen like your husband's never gonna be like and i think i should bring jared over to like one of his single scumbag friends one of his single scumbag friends all of a sudden won't be a scumbag everyone's scumbag is someone else's husband that's true that's true right so your your husband's friends are all there waiting to be someone else's not scumbag okay scumbag to you because they don't want to fuck you yeah probably so you hear them at their most honest so now i'm just saying if your friends if someone has a vivian too in their life where that's married with a husband on the trading desk that's out there killing it he's amongst a bunch of other guys who are also out there killing it also will settle down eventually eventually and it's going to be with someone that's fair and you know it's probably whoever's just in front of them at the right time when they decide to settle down right well like i mean we could it's going to sound more romantic from your friend okay fair enough fair enough you know you say it that way they say it as well we were making out in a bar okay okay six months later all of a sudden you had the time you know your story changes so i think with like the mailman work for you having, I don't want to, I want to lay down. I don't want to work. I want these things that work harder for me. I think it's also about like the favors economy. Like we have outsourced our friends. Like now, instead of asking your neighbor to like drive you to the airport or saying, Hey, like you're out of town. I'm happy to watch Rover for a week or being like, Hey, I know somebody who knows somebody that I think you should go get a drink with. It's like we have an app for everything. You bring up a great point. And now there's like, you know, the Uber driver, you can't tell the Uber driver. So I'm single and I'm looking and I'm out there. And then the Uber driver doesn't go, well, you got to meet my friend. So we're talking less to these people. We're talking less to the person that helps you with your dog. We're talking less to the person that would have driven you to the airport. So that means we have to make a commitment. If we were going to like have a winter dating challenge make a commitment to hang out with your married friends and start talking to them so they know what the hell is going on in your life yeah okay we're gonna do some emails we're here with vivian to your rich bff on social media uh the book is called well endowed and there's like calculators and stuff there's like there's like it's kind of like a workbook well so there's on what i there's digital resources but it's a true book that you read through and that at the end of each chapter there's like a checklist okay you can do so like it's very interactive i want people to like do stuff while they read this book but i feel like people love it already just because it's titled well endowed right why wouldn't why wouldn't anyone want to be well and i want to be okay so let's do some emails you ready okay jared and vivian my partner 35 and i 32 female are planning to get engaged this year. We wanted some guidance on how to handle finances as a couple. Our incomes are different. He makes $170,000 and I make $110,000. And right now we split our $5,000 a month rent almost equally with him paying $250 more. He just got a $25,000 raise last month. And as I am so happy he's doing well at work, but after a month, I'm curious, should we reevaluate the split? We're wondering about the best approach when incomes aren't the same. Should couples aim for an equal split or a fair proportional split? If so, is there an equation? Additionally, we want to start saving and investing together before getting engaged. What conversations should we be having about finances and is opening a joint bank account important at this stage? Best money talk scares me. Help me overcome my fear. Vivian, this is a very, there's a lot here. There's a good question. It's a great question. Great questions. It's a bunch in one. I love the sign off because it does ring true based on like my, you know, you get like a ping from an email. Money talk scares me, help me overcome my fear. It seems as though her solve to this is like, let's make it math. Yeah. Is that kind of the way to go with relationships and money? Is it make it math kind of like the, that's a good first step? I think it's a great first step, but I will say money in relationships is an art, not a science. Yeah. Like, do I think her and her partner should actually calculate out the prorated amounts of rent that they each should pay based on their income? Yeah, I do. Because I don't think it should be that close to a 50 50 split. Well, it's funny, you know, money's emotional based on how she wrote it, because she writes, she writes he makes right now we split our $5,000 rent almost equally with him paying $250 more like that's almost like to me that's a that that's crazy the way she wrote it why well to say almost equally is like she's trying to convince us like yeah she could just say like she goes from emotional to math in that sentence so she's dealing with it to me if i hear we split it almost equally but he spends 250 more so you don't split it equally you know i mean almost to who yeah almost is an emotional word in there so she is already starting to feel badly towards her partner on this subject to me that is to me that is the bad seed that's the resentment that's the resentment. Exactly. That's the word I'm looking for. Here's the reason why I think this is so important to address head on and quickly in their relationship. It's because as the person who makes less, you have to think about it from a commensurate burden on your finances. Okay. So like if you are going 50, 50 on rent, like you and I are in this situation, we're going you still definitely have money left over for the sushi dinners to go to the bar with friends to probably go to that concert. Right. But I have enough to probably cover the rent and then maybe I can't do all of those things. And now all of a sudden, I hate you for being able to go get sushi. Right. And I'm like, well, he's willing out with his friends to go get a drink at the bar. I want to do that, but I don't have any fucking money. And he's doing it stress-free. Stress-free. You're doing it with stress. With stress. And stress is, again, to go back to the almost word, is an emotional thing that you can't explain. It's like pain tolerance. Like, what is it one to 10? You go, well, it's a seven. Then you say it's a three. Yeah. You know, it's different and it's hard to like impart. And so I think talking over the proportional split is super helpful. I actually get this question a lot. OK. So I built a rent split calculator for people who preorder well endowed. OK. Because I think it's so important to be able to just pop in how much you make. And then I also cover other things to consider. OK. How much debt someone has. So if one person, the person who makes a little bit more, has a lot of other burdens, so maybe they're helping their family out or they've got big student loans and you make less but your parents paid for your college and you don't have any other expenses, that also impacts the calculus. Interesting. I don't think it's fair if the person who earns more but may come from a first-gen background and then this person who makes less who may have a trust fund that they can ultimately fall back on are having the same conversation. because you have to consider both the ads and the subtraction. To go back to the word resentment, that's where it starts. That's exactly where it starts. Because instead of we're splitting it equally, well, she splits it equally with me, but she also has the Scrooge McDuck bank vault that she takes a dip in every week. Exactly. Yeah, that's interesting. So you and your husband, let's make it personal. Yeah. You and your husband moving together. We did this exact same thing, actually. So what was the breakup? Who was making more? Who was making less? How did you guys work? So this was probably like two, three years into our relationship. We moved into this new apartment and he was making probably two or three times as much as I was making. Okay. So he was making a lot more money. And because of that, we prorated our rent based on how much he was making and how much I was making. Explain prorated. I'm an idiot. Prorated. Basically, um, you add up the total amount. And so it's your income plus my income. Okay. That gives you the bigger number at the bottom. Your income, my income. Okay, let's make it an even $100,000. Great. Okay. So say you make $70,000, I make $30,000. Okay, we have $100,000. Yes. So that's really easy, right? $70,000 divided by $100,000, that's 70%. $30,000 divided by $100,000. Let me get my mind straight. Okay. Jared, come on. I haven't done math in a long time. Okay, so. I'm an artist. $70,000, $30,000. Okay. That means you make up 70% of our total household income, and I make up 30% of our total household income. So when it comes to the rent, you should be paying for 70%. 70% of the household. Correct. 30% of the household. Yes. Okay, so let's say the rent's $10,000. We first of all should not have a $10,000 apartment. Probably living a little high on the hog. We're living very large. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredibly large. I'm trying to make the math easier myself so I don't embarrass myself. So it would be 7,000. And 3,000. And 3,000. Correct. So do you think this is what they should do? Yeah. Let's put our... Okay, so hold on. Let's go back to this example. I make 70, you make 30, we make 100 as a household. We have a $1,000 a month rent, okay? So I pay $700. I pay $300. You have a trust fund with a family money that you, no burdens, no debt. I have, you know, I got a $500 a month debt that I'm paying for my student loans. How do you do that? Basically, you essentially pull down what your income looks like because you have obligations. So say you make $70,000 a year, but that $500 a month in- So that's $6,000 a year. You take that out of your and we have to be doing this with after numbers Okay So assume you make after taxes To make the math easy Yep And then you take down the six right Okay So now you have what is it Yeah. I also get $500 from my papa every single month. So add six grand onto you. So now you're at 36 and I'm at 64. So now, again, fortunately the math is still really easy here. Right. I mean, keep it easy. We don't have to be difficult. Now you're paying 64%. But this discussion that we're having right now, this emailer, this person, hypothetically, who's in this situation, this is what you're doing. This is exactly what you're doing. This is what you're doing with your husband, with your, now, what month of your dating are you talking finances with your husband? First date. First date. Because you're not showing up to the first date and being like, show me your tax return. That's weird. but you can ask a question like if you tomorrow woke up and realized you inherited enough money to fund the rest of your life what would you do for a living so this is like feelings questions feelings but numbers so i got i got you so we want to do if you're really if this is on your mind yeah if you're like first date i want to make sure that we connect on this level that's a fun make it fun make it fun right a little miss frizzle this shit you know like let's make a magic school bus another good one is okay so if i gave you a hundred thousand dollars to plan your dream vacation what would you do the person who says i would go climb mount kilimanjaro or the andes mountains or mount everest which by the way is very expensive to do yeah yeah yeah versus someone like me who's like well i would go and stay at the amman in you know amman's one of those hotels for those that don't know that's what that's how you know vivian's very rich because it is like not even advertised like it is like out in a desert and then they you can't see other things in the distance yeah like the whole hotel is built on you won't look at a human yeah yeah yeah like if i want to do like the four seasons like they take a shit on the four seasons correct yeah so like i if i say i want to go to the aman i want to get a massage every single day yeah i want to sit in silence, I don't want to see other human beings, and I literally just want to read my book, those two people are probably very different. Do you think those two people could ever date? I do, as long as each of them is willing to do the other person's activity without resentment and without complaint, because ultimately it's all about compromise. Like my husband is a fly and flop. He wants to fly somewhere and sit on a beach chair for two weeks. I am someone who loves to be stimulated and I love to do an activity. Okay. So when we were in Japan, exactly. Yeah. We spent part of the trip doing the seafood market tour and, uh, training Iaido, which is like the samurai swordsmanship. Right. Cause I wanted to do those things. But then another part of the trip was we went to a, we stayed at an Amon and it was a private onsen. We went to the spa, we relaxed, we ate a bunch. You got a little bit of everything. Yeah. You got to do both. Right. But also, you know to get to a more uncomfortable space you both had to have uh afford that yeah do you think people from two different socioeconomic backgrounds can like get together like that i think it's possible if your husband was poor you could be with him my husband yeah when i met my husband i was the broke one like i had i had very little he treated me so well he was so generous and now i am the breadwinner right so like do you think it could have worked the other way though i don't know if i'm really really yeah i mean that's not that's not a prying question that's not like i think because i do i hear what you're saying that's a lot of the position of male female relationships too i will say i think it's hard even with a more traditional gender role of like rich guy broke girl sure like i think it's actually very challenging to date into stratospherically different socioeconomic classes so i think like if somebody i agree with you. If someone's like lower middle class and the other person's like upper middle class, I think that bridge can be like that gap can be bridged pretty easily. But if you are someone who grew up on government assistance and then your partner is someone who came from generational generational like Rockefeller money. Sure. One, I think the odds of you guys having anything to relate on in the early stages of your dating are one limited but two like i think there are just going to be differences that may become very hard to accept i am very much someone who thinks there is such thing as socioeconomic mobility but people ask me all the time they dm me because they're like your husband's rich like how'd you find him right and i'm like you do realize that if you want to date someone who went to harvard right in the general populace that's incredibly challenging to do but if you go to harvard it's actually really easy right because you're amongst you're amongst your peers like what you're saying is very true because it's also like i you know the person that's on on some form of welfare and the person that's from generational wealth they're just not going to meet they're going to run into each other you know unless it's me you know it's not a rom-com you know like but i i guess to go back to something you said in the beginning that i I disagree with a little bit, but I think I'm now coming to understand why you might believe this, how hard and disposable everyone is these days. You're probably talking to highly successful women. I think that's probably right. But if you're talking to highly successful women who are single, the pool, smaller for who they're attracted to. Now you're told, okay, go with, you know, the idea of going to your small town and meeting the garbage man and being like falling in love lifetime movies right that's cute but like does that happen and then does it become a problem when she wants to go on vacation and she doesn't even expect him to pay for it but she expects him to pick up his half and he can't right right this is and that's a more reasonable you know discussion yeah he can't his half you're not saying i need you know this is right right that's where this conversation gets into internet land and extremism and rage bait though i do think that there is a level of gender disparity that like a rich guy would pay for the broke girl to go to the Amon with him. And then a rich woman may not want to do that. Right. And I think that's something that like we should probably talk about as a society. I don't know. You know, it's funny because like this podcast has always been about telling you the weather. Yeah. Not changing the weather. Yeah. You know, because I can't do that. I can't promise that. I can't fix it. Right. But what you're saying is acknowledging it is way more of a interesting conversation and like you know because i i do i hear what you're saying like the the amman hotel like is so nice that there is a large percent of our audience googling it to see what the fuck it is you know so yeah so i i only know it because it came up i think on a tiktok with like the most unbelievable hotels yeah and i was like wow this is crazy that there's a hotel chain i didn't even fucking know you know so it is interesting when it comes to dating and like you know women making good money and that's why you hear a lot like men are intimidated and it's like yeah i don't know we've talked about that here like i think men are intimidated because they have been told that their only way to provide value is to be a financially like to bring finances into the family but i actually think if you are dating a man and the only thing that they bring to the table is money you're actually dating an incredibly poor person. Okay. Because I feel like that shouldn't be the only thing that a man can bring to the table. Like my husband, considering all the money he makes, right? He is still the one who does our laundry. He is still the one who takes out the trash. He is the one who takes care of me when I'm sick. He is so kind and generous in so many ways that have nothing to do with a dollar sign. Right. And that's why I picked him. I found the last good man in New York City. I feel at least, you know, I, you also saw that he was successful and able. And I do think that works into it. Like, you know, the idea that he's, I don't think I honestly, like, I think a lot of the things that men deal with in the dating world is like, your kindness doesn't, it doesn't start with kindness. No, it starts with look at that guy works hard that guy is a but it does has potential and is kind yes yes i'm not saying kindness is nothing i just remember this is the problem that i think like we the the dating conversation from the male end is so fraudulent like i think that the arguments we're telling them the value the wrong things we're telling them the value the wrong things but then we're also ignoring their emotional state in this like you're told your whole life you are valuable if you do well and that's why women will like you yeah and then you know we're sitting here saying well it's that but also be kind also you have to be nice yeah be nice and do the laundry and be a good husband and there's other things you can value but it's like would you date someone who sits on their couch and doesn't want to get a job but is incredibly kind no right and that's okay okay i wouldn't date a woman who does who does the same thing but also there are guys that wouldn't even give a shit they go she's hot and that's not right either back to that point yeah of if you have all of the the boxes are checked meaning you make a good income you're doing all that if you're not kind you're still undateable right like maybe you'll have like some hot thing on your arm for a month or two and then get the new flavor of the month but like you're not going to have like a really meaningful relationship i don't think yeah i don't think i i don't think they're going to like want to even be with someone for long term i think kindness also works into like being with someone you know like and having the capacity for like a real relationship yeah but i i think these these conversations are interesting because they make people angry yeah you know like we're talking around this a little bit because we know you're you're hearing an internet comment from someone yeah who's like well i have a husband who doesn't make it's like yeah we're not talking about that yeah you know this is a generalized conversation that is exists for a reason yeah and i think we can have a conversation around what is societal norm there's going to be outliers in every single case sure sure this next one is an eek or picky so we play this game on the show all the time you are dating someone you get the ick is it a true ick or are you just being picky okay so we're going to give this person feedback okay ready j and j and guest vivian i'm 32 dating in chicago area and I keep this. I went to school in Chicago. I'm praying for you. Where you went to school in Chicago. You, you went on dates during school. Did you go to like on dates? Yeah. Bad dates? Yeah. Lots. Give us a bad day. There was one where I went on a date with this guy and he said that he, it was like my junior or senior year. And he was like, oh yeah, like I work at this place. And he wouldn't tell me where he worked but then he described it but like i also had worked in finance at that point at intern so i i was like so you work xyz and he was like yeah and then as soon as i guessed it he was like well yeah i make you know however much money a year he was like 350 000 and i was like okay this guy like sucks i need to like entertain myself on this date so i drank a bunch of long island iced teas and i got so drunk i like couldn't see and then when they brought out the actual food menu, it was really dark. And to be fair, I have very bad eyes, like negative seven prescription in both. Like I, I have perfect vision, perfect vision. So I don't even, I know, I'm sorry. I don't even know the conversation. It's like when, uh, like it's like when a new mother tells me how much their baby weighs, I'm like, I'm a single guy. I don't know. You're like, I don't know this. Okay. But like, I really have bad eyes to begin with, but then I couldn't see the menu and I was like, Oh, like I'm blind. And he was like, what? And I was like, yeah. And I like don't even know why I said that. Yeah. But then I just kept up the bit for the rest of the date. But then as soon as I want – like the date was over and I wanted to leave, I like looked down at my Uber app, called the car, and I left. And he was like, so you saw the Uber on your phone? And I was like, bye. So midway through the date, I'm blind. I'm blind. That's just it. Yeah. Just I can't see. Where am I? Yeah. And he was like, what? Yeah. He probably goes around telling a story about this woman who went blind. Yeah, probably. Fine. good for him well this is on the same subject so telling someone what you make on a date yeah is like crazy no no i i can't even see how that comes up i feel like that is a conversation that 1000 needs to be had in a relationship right but on a like a first date well this person right i keep getting the same ick men bringing up how much money they make way too early i'm not asking i'm not hinting and we're not talking about a future yet yet somehow salary gets dropped in a casual conversation like it's supposed to mean something. For example, one guy mentioned his job in a totally normal way, just talking about what he does day to day. Then instead of leaving it there, he followed it up with something like, yeah, so with bonuses, I'm clearing around X a year. Even though I hadn't asked anything about income, it felt like the job explanation wasn't enough on its own. Like he needed to attach a dollar amount to it. I bet this reader, like the person who wrote in is like really hot and they're trying to impress her. That's interesting. Right. I mean, And to go back to our conversation before, what is your value as a man? I make this and my personality can really keep up with what I needed to They like trying to convince her that they a great partner because of these things When in fact it be a lot easier to convince her of that if they were just normal right well they can be normal yeah you know they don know how to be normal so let me just show you these facts and figures yeah you know it is a straight it is like all of it goes back to what were you told will get you laid from birth but they're trying to make up for a lack of personality with stock options and like it's not working. And that really, you can't, you'd end up with a person as, you know, as- Insecure as you. Right. And that's why you see horrible couples. They find each other. Yeah. You know? But listen, there is someone out there for everybody. I really believe that. But for every seat, if not, it's not that the money is off limits forever. It just feels weird when it comes up before the, there's trust, intention, emotional momentum. Yeah, we agree with you. When someone volunteers their income early, it reads less like transparency, more like posturing or insecurity. it turns a normal date into a quiet evaluation I never asked for. For me, salary only makes sense once you're actually discussing logistics, moving in, long-term goals, or a shared life. Before that, I just want to know if someone is stable, respectful, and emotionally available. Dropping numbers too soon doesn't turn me on or feel helpful. It feels performative and honestly a little icky. So my question is, when should salary come up in dating without killing the vibe or giving someone the ick? So we are establishing bringing up your income on a date. Tacky. Don't do it. We don't give a lot of rules here, but like I can't see a scenario where I need to say what I make on a date unless we're going to buy a car at the end. I don't know. Right. You don't need to share that. So when do you talk about it? I think this person is not only probably incredibly hot, but also has a great head on their shoulders. It's a great email. It's a great email. I think the salary conversation actually should come up exactly when she mentioned when they are discussing logistics. So I'll tell you when I when me and my husband talked about it. We actually talked about it about 30 days in into our relationship very early. Are you in an established relationship? No, barely. But you're like talking. Yeah. But hear me out on why. My girl roommate and I had moved into this apartment that we were thought that we thought was going to be amazing. Turns out there was a cockroach infestation. so then i ended up grabbing an overnight bag with like just some basic clothes and i hightailed it over to my now husband's apartment yeah and i was in tears and i stayed with him and i was staying with him for like a week and then it became two weeks and then i was like what the hell am i doing and so i sat him down and i was like listen this is how much i make this is how much it's going to cost for me to break my lease on this apartment. I don't have anything else. Like I don't have any other money saved. I can't afford to pay you and your kind roommate who's allowing me to basically bum like, you know, bum on your couch. Like I, I can't do that. And then I laid it all out there. I got fully financially naked and that was the right moment to have the conversation. One, because we were starting to think about like becoming exclusive. And two, like we ended up sharing a lot in that moment. He told me how much he made, how much, you know, we talked about debt, we talked about everything. Right. And it mattered because it was actually a logistical planning conversation. Right. And also you gotta like, I think like anytime something said without being earned, it's like, it does feel like there's a manipulation going on. Yeah. Like you aren't you together a month, you've shared some things, you were probably intimate in some sort of way. and then you go to him and you go listen i'm we were spending every single weekend together half of the week nights i'm going through some shit i'm not bringing this up to like you said logistical like i'm not bringing this up to like get me somewhere yeah i'm bringing this up to let you know where i'm at yeah what's going on yeah yeah i think like but that's a feel thing again like that's like you know romance versus science it's like so like to answer their question like there's no answer other than like obviously that's things needs to come up but obviously it has to be someone you're comfortable with. And like, I don't think anyone's going to get the ick from you if you are already realizing it shouldn't be said on a first date. Right. Let's do another email. UUP at Betches.com. We're going to play a game. You ready to play some games? I love a game. Red flag or deal breaker. It is the game that's sweeping the country. You're dating someone. There's one thing that happens. It is either a red flag. You notice it. You keep going or it's a deal breaker. We are done. Sight unseen. But it's a great date already. So things are going great. So this, to make it a deal breaker, it's visualizing. Okay. Ready? Yeah. J and J, my boyfriend, 29 and I female 27 have been together for about a year and a half and have recently started talking about marriage. He comes from a lot of money and will receive a good bit of money. Once his parents pass away, my family is upper middle class, but has nowhere near the amount of money that he does. He mentioned the other day that when we get married, he will ask me to sign a prenup. I'm not quite sure how I feel about it. It seems like it's almost an insurance policy. in case we get divorced. And I don't know why he would want to get married if he already thinks we might get divorced. Is this the new norm? He's claiming that the government has a, anytime you bring up the government in a relationship conversation, we're not talking anymore. Like the government has a prenup on us. I don't even know what that means. I do, so keep going. What is, okay. He's claiming that the government has a prenup on us. So why not create our own and have control over it as finances get messy? Let's relieve ourselves from that burden. I'm just not sure what to do or how to feel. Red flag or deal breaker. He's talking about divorce before we even get engaged. Honestly, this is neither. This is a green flag. And the fact that this person is so like reticent, I don't want to say that's a red flag for her. But I actually think there might just need to be a little bit of education here. So the government comment. Yeah, what does that mean? When I say like, oh, let's get a prenup. It's a prenuptial agreement that we both go. We get our own attorneys and we draft a document explaining how assets will be split up in the case that things go south. If we don't get that document from our own lawyers, the government has a pre-established one that applies to all marriages. That is just kind of like the boilerplate. That is a – well, you know what's funny about that? Because this email to me is all about perspective. Yeah. Her perspective is written in the email. Why would he want to get married if he already thinks we might get divorced? Like that is such a different view of a prenup than what you just explained. What you just explained is this is already happening. This is already set in stone. Why wouldn't we want to take more control over it so that we can have a say in how this would go down if it ever were? Correct. in the if and when and horrific circumstances. That's like saying, why would you want to get life insurance? Are you trying to kill me? Right. You know, and it's like, that's not how life insurance works. Do you get health insurance? I hope you don't plan on getting sick. Do you have home insurance? I don't think you expect a tornado to come through. And from his end with like a lot of wealth in the family, that might be that his family's like, hey, we think we're happy for you. We think you guys are a great couple, but our son takes money from us in a certain way. We wanna make sure that because he takes some money from us, we're not at risk if this relationship goes down for our finances that are attached to him. And here's the other thing. Yeah. With ultra wealthy families, it isn't just mom and dad giving money to the son. There's usually some sort of trust and will in place. And more often than not, there are terms in those documents that are like, if this person does not get a prenup, they are not entitled to their allocation of the inheritance. So what we're saying is that this conversation is way more depthy than she's giving it credit for. She's basically saying, if you want a prenup, that means you're looking for an out. And we are both saying that is not the case. And if you can't have that conversation, you become the red flag. Correct. You know, and what he's saying with the government thing from my end, when I didn't know what that meant. And again, what you don't know creates fear, the unknown when i hear him say well the government has a prenup on us anyways it's funny you and i as a lesson to her heard it in two different ways i heard it as shithead trying to get out of a like you heard it as he is exactly right he's correct 1000 it's very interesting so we're both saying she's the red flag he should dump her no no no i'm kidding this money grubbing bitch get rid of her no so all right let's do one more you ready yeah red flag or deal breaker he asks you out on a third date picks the restaurant she puts in parentheses a pricey one but then at the end asks to split the bill shouldn't he have paid red flag to me tbd if there will be a fourth date would love your ruling so red flag or deal breaker chooses a pricey restaurant asks to split the tab i think for me it's probably a deal breaker yeah i'll tell you why please it's because this person is not conscientious like this this like this person that she is going on a date with is not a conscientious person which is just essentially being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and understand where they are living and existing i love that because thoughtfulness is so important so important and it's not about the fact that he chose a pricey restaurant it's about the fact that he assumed she would pay for half of it when he chose if that was the case he should have been like would love to go to this restaurant no it's a little bit of a of a pricier spot how do you feel and if she was like oh okay that sounds like i'm gonna have to pay and she's like oh you know i'm not really in a position to go there they should have picked a cheaper place. Right. I, the problem with the word pricey is that it's different. It's different pricey to you and pricey to me are different. You're at the Mon. Okay. You're pricey is like, I'm sitting here and you know, the, the Hilton garden in not, you know, so I mean, pricey to me, you know, might be the markets that, you know, the chips of the market, but I, I, I think the, I, you know, Hey, do you want to go out with me? And then here's the place were going yeah it's almost like you've stolen valor yeah you know like not to like you know take on now i'm stealing valor from you know i'm not trying i'm just saying like the idea that you got to look hot up until the last moment yes and then the last moment you kind of take it away but we did go to the nice restaurant you did show me you did pick a place like you did all this and then you ruined it at the end yeah with this like hey let's go splitsies on a really fancy place that you tried to like kind of get some street cred from to take back take us back to the amman hilton garden in example like someone i also would like to hope that someone who is staying at a place like the amman also has the general sense of reality to recognize that most people can't stay there right and that more average consumers need to stay at hotels at lower price points right so like if that is the case and this is mr fancy schmancy sure even if it's not pricey for him he should probably have a sense this is date three this is not first date date three that's why i i if we think of things on a spectrum yeah like let's let's believe he's the most evil most aware and unaware person let's go on the spectrum of unaware to aware he's either unaware that this place is expensive and that and he's made no thought to your circumstance to be comfortable on a date that sucks yeah or he's so aware of the price of this place that he realized the date wasn't going the way he wanted it to go and then asked you to subsidize it right so both are bad so it's a deal breaker yeah like like it is it's either he didn't get sex from the expensive date he was bringing you on or he doesn't think of other people. Correct. So for that reason, I'm in deal breaker land. And again, this paying conversation, again, this is why I love doing the show. It's a fraudulent, bad actor conversation people get involved in because you can split a date and still have it be okay. You can prefer to split a date because you don't want to be in a position where you owe anyone anything. Those are all real feelings. You can say you love to pay for dates and it means nothing to you. you just like to pay for dates that you ask people out on. Yeah. All are allowed. But when it comes to this, a little more nuanced. Yeah. So Vivian Tu, a pleasure having you here. We solved dating. We solved dating. We did it. Everyone go buy Vivian Tu's book. The link is in the episode bio. Wherever you're listening or watching, it is called Well Endowed. At your rich dot. Yeah. Do you even need the dot? No. You can find you at your rich BFF. I kept reading it. Your.richBFF. And I was like, I'm just going to say at yourrichBFF. You can find me everywhere as yourrichBFF, and you can grab a copy of the book, Well Endowed, at richbffbook.com. Amazing. Thank you so much for being such a wonderful guest. And also our first maternity leave guest. We've got to have you back when Jordana's back. People, thank you for listening to the show. Thank you for watching. Send in your emails, uup at bedgers.com. Subscribe. Do all the things. Comment. Let us know the parts you liked, the parts you didn't like, the parts that made you angry, the parts that made you happy, the parts that made you laugh. We love a comment. We love a share. We'll be back next week. Boom.