The Truth About Loneliness

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K.R.I.S, tell me about this, how wrong are you doing loneliness? You know, I am such a social person, I'm socially thirsty, I just love being around people, and partying, and hanging, and rotting, and doing whatever. So I don't really think about it. I feel like I'm combating it every day, but I'm starting to understand that it's really about the quality of our relationships and the state of mind you go into these relationships with. I suspect I don't know as much as I think I know. What about you? You know what, we don't ever really talk about loneliness as a culture, as a country. I spend a lot of my life being very alone and through a lot of hard work and just sort of working on myself. I feel like I'm not anymore, I'm really grateful for that. But there are definitely times I still feel it, and I have to work at it and try and fix it. And I'm curious to hear just some more of a global perspective, why this is happening now, because I do think it's getting worse. Yeah, it definitely is. And we're going to dig into today with Dr. Ellen Lee, she's an associate professor of psychiatry at the University of California, San Diego, and she's a loneliness, justice warrior. Oh, the get us connected, Dr. Lee. Yes. Dr. Lee, we're so excited to have you here with us. Thank you again for being here. Thanks for having me. Happy to talk about loneliness at any time. Yes. Okay, let's start at the very, very beginning. Is loneliness a physical state or a state of mind? Like what exactly are we dealing with when we're out here combating the loneliness epidemic? I actually really find this question pretty interesting. It's more complicated than you think, because there's such a strong mind body connection, but I would agree that loneliness is a state of mind, because there's a purely subjective experience. So they based on how we feel, and we define it in the research as a distress that arises between a discrepancy between your desired social relationships and your perceived social relationships. So it's both what you want, but also what you think your relationships are like. That's so interesting. Yeah. And when we're talking about it being an epidemic, which is what we're hearing more and more of, I mean, the surgeon general is talking about everyone is sort of talking about this. What makes it an epidemic? And how do you diagnose someone with loneliness or what do you see clinically? The rates are rising. That's one reason why we think it's an epidemic, but I also think, you know, there's a bit of contagion aspect to it where we think that maybe loneliness is catching or more and more people are becoming lonely. I don't know that it's catching, but there is a sense that there's some sort of system wide or society wide reasons why people are feeling more isolated and people are feeling like their social relationships are not as strong as what they'd like them to be. We have a couple of ways in the research where we'll, you know, provide these scales. Some of the scales are pretty useful because they won't actually use the word lonely or loneliness. So you might try to circumvent the stigma that people may have or the reluctance people have to admit to feeling lonely. But I think ultimately loneliness is a purely subjective and personal experience. Like when you ask people if they feel lonely, they might describe something slightly different. For each person, I think it's really important to get a sense of do they feel like they're lonely? What is that experience like for each of them? And we are as humans, social animals, right? So how does social isolation happen? Say even if you're living in a big city, like how does it, how does that feeling happen? It's actually very pronounced in that way because there is some speculation in the history of the word loneliness that we didn't actually use the word loneliness until the industrial revolution. So not until we actually started gathering into these cities, living in these sort of large, busy communities where people are starting to feel more isolated. And so the thought is that actually there is the sense of you can feel lonely in a crowd and that may actually be much more pronounced than being alone by yourself in sort of a more like we're all or a pastoral or natural kind of studying. So I think that we are social creatures. And some of the thought of why is loneliness even a thing? Like why are we evolved to feel lonely? Some of the thought is that loneliness used to be a trigger, like a canary to coal mines. So if you're feeling lonely, you need to go find someone because people are important for survival. Morning. For protection. And now it's sort of become something where loneliness has become a persistent problem for people where people feel lonely and they feel isolated and they feel maybe more sensitive to social rejection. And then they actually end up withdrawing. They actually try to stay away from people to avoid feeling rejected socially. And they sort of perpetuate this loneliness as something more significant, persistent over time. Dr. Ellen, when do we start seeing loneliness as an epidemic? How recent is this? And what are some of the reasons that you think this has happened? I mean, one of the things I'm thinking about is just that not only are maybe people not socializing as much, there are reasons we'll probably get into for that. But also the quality of their connections are not as strong as they were before. So dig into that. When do we start seeing this? And what are some of the reasons that we think we're seeing it now? It's really interesting because like the neurobiology of loneliness research really came up over the last, I would say like 50 years or so, where people are becoming more and more interested in sort of the science of loneliness. But there's also a thought that we've been kind of moving that way even before COVID, even before technology and social media really started picking up. So people are starting to live alone more, you know, maybe, you know, marriage rates have been dropping, divorce rates have been increasing. People are having fewer and fewer children. So they are more isolated. But we're also seeing people become less involved in community organizations, religious organizations, and then one big factor for loneliness is aging. So also seeing a growing aging population. So over time, we have been seeing people's social networks decreasing over time. And then I think with technology, there is this ability to connect. So it's kind of a double edge sword. You can connect more easily. But you could also perpetuate maybe a social connection that doesn't feel as strong or as meaningful. So it's not the same as being friends with someone in person versus being friends purely online. And the quality of that relationship may not be as fulfilling. So there's also the thought that maybe social media makes you self-compair or makes you feel left out. And so maybe there are other things about feeling sort of more social rejected on social media. So I think there's a lot of different reasons why we as a society are becoming more lonely. It's been pretty natural to feel lonely when you know, key milestones in your life. Like you know, you move out of the house, you go to college, totally cut off from your usual social networks or your social supports. You know, you get divorced, you retire from work. So a lot of different aspects of your network are changing, you have an empty nest, kids grow up and about. You know, all sorts of different life milestones can also make you feel pretty lonely too. You know, it's interesting. I met this man, maybe 15 years ago, his name is Jeff. And he was the self-proclaimed foot fetish king of Hollywood, Florida. I'm excited to see where this goes. Yeah. And I met him online. And he told me he was probably 50 or 60. This was 15 years ago. And he said when he was growing up, he didn't know anyone who was gay. And he especially didn't know anyone who had a foot fetish. And he felt so alone. And then the internet came along. And he found these message boards of all these other people that were just like him. And all of a sudden he didn't feel so alone. But even though he met all these other people and it was really affirming and at least he knew he wasn't broken or deviant because there were other people who felt this way, they didn't live near him. And so he had a community in some ways. At least he was sort of felt like he was legitimate in his desires. But he couldn't go and meet these people. He couldn't really socially interact with them. They were all over the world. And so it's like you said, Dr. Lee, this idea of like technology and social networks. Yeah. I think it is a double edge sort. I think we can be so much more connected and find people who are like us now. But it doesn't mean that those connections actually are as strong or as true or as meaningful as we want them to be because they actually aren't in real life. Yeah. I do appreciate that initial sense of belongingness. And I think the long term is so important, especially when you're from a group that is marginalized or not really popular. It's hard to find people who are like you or understand you and your experiences. And I think that cultivating belongingness is actually really, really important to combat or even prevent loneliness. And there have been some studies trying to improve loneliness. And let's create like a self-help group or let's create a support group online. And the ones that work are the ones where people feel that sort of shared common identity. That's a little bit more, you know, where they just sort of an all-comers sort of support group. So I'm happy in one way that they're able to find some way to connect, but also it is hard when you can't actually have in person. Yeah. The interactions. The in person stuff I have to say, and we had another expert on your anagle far for the friendship episode who was talking about how important it is to sit with someone. And I never really thought about that, but it is so much different. Even if you're not touching them or holding their hand, the quality of that connection is so different. And that leads to my next question. I know you're an expert in aging and loneliness and you mentioned this a little bit. Like do people over the age of 60, 65 naturally isolate? Like I'm thinking of the old man and up who like didn't want to be bothered and like floated away. Like this is a stereotype. But does that naturally happen? Do you kind of want to be like, leave me the F alone? Yeah, I mean, I think that there's a lot of risks for loneliness as we age. And you know, we think that it's sort of a W shaped curve. So like people are most lonely and they're young 20s mid 50s and then sort of the late 80s, the end of life. And so I do think you're more likely to be lonely. Like let's take the character and up. So he lost his partner. So a lot of people lose friends and families to health reasons or death. And people may move away. They might go to retirement homes or retirement communities or assisted living or nursing homes. So they're not. They don't have the same relationships. They've decreased mobility and physical health issues. They can't engage in some other social activities. You know, children may move away or it's very possible to get more lonely as you get older. Because so many things are changing all these sort of milestone sort of experiences are changing. You're often retired so you don't have work or the acting and social network. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Fancy making your day even brighter at Gala. With thousands of dazzling slots, flingo and live casino games, there's more to Gala than Bingo. Sign up to world our shiny daily free spin reel. For chances to win up to 50 pounds cash. Gala, where a little joy goes a long way. 18 plus new customers max once been per day. You could win free spins cash or no prize restrictions in terms of light. Tired of the, I know it's here somewhere. Moment. The new scan snap IX 2400 scanner means you'll never search for a receipt again. Our simplest scan snap experience yet. Just press the blue button and instantly convert documents into digital files you can find in seconds. Perfect for busy professionals who need organization without complexity. With instant one touch scanning, 45 pages per minute speed, an automatic data extraction, the IX 2400 saves your files exactly where you need them. No more missed expense claims or lost warranties. Just peace of mind knowing everything important is safe and instantly accessible. Ready to stop wasting time hunting for paperwork? Visit scansnapit.com slash podcast and discover how simple document management can be. Scan snap. The smarter way to work. Hi there, it's Jay Cumpfrey here and our podcast high performance is currently bought to you by Volvo and the fully electric EX90. The Volvo EX90 is a large fully electric SUV perfect for the family with seven seats as loads of room for everyone. And with up to 378 miles of range, it's great to keep the journey going. It's also reassuring to know the EX90 is designed with the safest Volvo car ever made. So you know you and your loved ones are protected and the fast infotainment system is perfect for seamless connectivity. So you can keep the music playing the whole time. What more would you want? Search Volvo EX90 to find out more. Electric range may vary based on driving behavior and conditions. Welcome back to Am I doing it wrong? Does culture play a part because I feel like some communities are more collectivist versus individualistic? Yeah. The research is definitely mixed, but you would think collectivist side is ones where you're sort of more reliant on each other and that's sort of like beyond just the family unit of community level. People would be less lonely, but actually more or lonely. Wow. Yeah. And I think part of it is the expectation of your social support network is higher in those communities. On the other hand, there are more safeguards, right? Where people who are from these sort of collective societies are more likely to have more social sports and more social connections. So maybe even though the loneliness is higher, the way it impacts people is somewhat different. Like maybe if you move, for example, one thing that people study is people who move from sort of a collectivist society and move to an individualistic side. Like, for example, America is thought to be, US is generally thought to be quite individualistic. Yes. I'm a lot of Western Europe. And so people who move from, you know, more like Asian countries or places where they are sort of more reliant on each other, they may really struggle in the country. But if they're able to find those relationships and those community ties and people with like a shared background, then often they can buffer a lot of the issues that, you know, might arise from being more isolated, especially language. Yeah. Okay. So it's like a quality versus quantity, like quality of these relationships is more important than having like a ton of them. It's probably a factor of both. It's probably having both, you know, because, you know, we sort of disregard these sort of very weak social ties. You know, like the acquaintance you see when you're dropping off your kid at school or like, you know, the person who opens the door for you at Starbucks and you say, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. All, you know, men's skills social interactions can actually be pretty meaningful. And so what we notice people lost a lot of these during COVID. Yes. And it actually matters. You know, these little sort of interactions, these little pieces of being part of this larger humanities, really important actually. I really, that was the part that I struggled with really, really, like a lot during the pandemic, those strange interactions. I love, oh, I love that sweater. Where did you get it? Like I'm a big, you know, certified yapper, as they say. And I really miss that part during the pandemic. I felt the same way I would, during the pandemic, I was living alone. And so I didn't have a partner and I, so I spent, you know, almost a year alone. I remember going to the dentist for the first time, probably seven months in. It was the first time someone had touched me in like six or seven months. And I almost started crying. Yeah, yeah, of course. Getting my teeth clean. Yeah. It was ridiculous. But it was so, it was the impact of that. The other thing I think about Dr. Lee is just how easy I think it is to, for your situation to change and for you to sort of encounter loneliness. I'm even thinking about like myself, you know, I have a partner. But if I broke up, I would not have that connection. Most of my good friends in the last five years have left New York. I have some friends in New York now, but a lot of them left like a lot of people do because New York is expensive and annoying. Most of my best friends don't live in the city anymore. And, you know, we were working from home up until recently. And so I think really quickly, even if you are a social person and someone who has a lot of connections, you can find yourself feeling really lonely. I also have friends. They're married. They move for a job to a city where neither of them knows anyone. They don't have any friends all of a sudden. All they have is their partner. And, you know, it's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure. And I don't think that that person can sort of clown all of your loneliness either. You need these other people. So, I guess, what do you think about that, Dr. Lee? The fact that we're all maybe closer to loneliness than we think or, you know, I'm sure there are people who are listening who are actively lonely, but it's not that far away. You know, what you're hitting on is sort of there is a loneliness skill that divides loneliness into two aspects. So one is this emotional loneliness. So having someone you can feel intimately close to your close confidant. And the other part is like social loneliness. And like, you know, like somebody to go bowling with. Someone to like do things with. And I feel like it's hard for your partner to manage both of those roles. And so I do think it is really easy for us to sort of discount some relationships or, you know, just, you know, we, we forget how hard it is to start over. I always joke. I hate moving because you have to find a new grocery store, a new dentist, a new plumber, all those things. But you really also to build that community network. And it's challenging to find a point where you feel like you belong again. And sometimes it could take years to build that up. One thing I think people also forget, though, is how much work it is to maintain the relationships you already have. So even though people have moved away, I'm sure you do a lot of reaching back out and trying to maintain those relationships. And it doesn't work, you know, it's, it's not like a cruise control. Like some people say, oh, you can just dip back in and it's like you never left. But you also have to be able to manage conflict and even confront people when there's something to work out because you don't want to let things go. And you don't want to just let the relationships sort of with her. If there's a misunderstanding or something you guys need to work through. Even for the healthy ones, I don't know if you all do this, but I schedule a lot of my friendships now. I mean, I have standing drinks with some friends every Friday night. And I look forward to that. But just having a busy active life with work and everything else, if you don't make those, they almost feel like appointments. But I think they're so important. And I don't want to have to schedule all my friendships. I want some of it to be organic and just sort of happen. But if you don't, like you were just saying, if you don't tend to the relationships you have, there's so many reasons to not show up to a party to not call someone to have dinner. And that evaporates really quickly too. Yeah, I totally agree. I'm with the appointments. I have chosen, my partner have chosen to not have children. So we're really big on building community. Because having a nuclear family is not the only way to have a family. So these appointments, these friendship appointments with our existing family in France is really important. But you're right, Dr. Leah takes work. Yeah, you're making it a priority. And I think scheduling it is actually showing how much of a priority you are making it. You're not just going to, you know, leaving it to chance was great. Some people are so busy and so occupied. I think people work beyond the night, you know, the eight hour workday. So you have to do things to make sure people have time for each other. Can you tell me a little bit about what the physical repercussions of loneliness are? I know I've read this long report from the Vick Murphy. Like it's terrifying. Like it's compared being feeling lonely is compared to like smoking a bunch of cigarettes every day. And I'm like, holy crap. Like what can physically happen to us? Yeah, basically, yeah, the quote he has is pretty hard hitting. It says, you know, the mortality rate related to loneliness is worse than obesity or smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Which is gone. It's a lot of cigarettes. You know, we still tell people, please don't smoke as well, but it's also an idea to watch your social functioning and how important that is. We understand that loneliness can actually increase the levels of stress hormone, cortisol, interblood. We know that people who are lonely have sort of dysregulated or weaker immune responses. So for example, if you're more lonely, you would have a lower response to like a backseat, for example, you would have a low response to like a backseat. Okay, we would have a huge immune reaction. People are lonely also have higher-level information. So loneliness is linked with a lot of cardiovascular disease, hematomolic syndrome, from sedentary lifestyles, lots of negative things and outcomes are associated with loneliness, but you know, it's both lifestyle and loneliness itself. That's terrifying. I know. I would love for you to talk to us about loneliness for younger people. I read this crazy article and it stayed with me. This is probably eight or 10 years ago. It's definitely before the pandemic and they asked kids who were in high school what they'd done during summer vacation and they told the reporter, you know, well, we just hung out and they were like, well, no, did you guys play video games? Did you go to the mall and they were like, oh, no, no, no. Like I was in my room and I texted my friends and they were in their rooms and they texted me back and that was so, and I am turning into one of those people who was like, well, when I was a kid, like I know I sound like such a grandpa, but that stopped me in my tracks the fact that these kids in the same city before COVID weren't even hanging out. What do we know about loneliness and adolescence and teenagers? It does seem that people are feeling more lonely than these two. So kids are definitely seeming to be more on their phones. Maybe they have less social interactions but maybe they also have less social skill building because they do some of your things virtually. And like you said, it seems like there's less free time for kids these days just to hang out or, you know, like we have the same sort of joke where, you know, you would just leave the house in the morning on your bikes and just come in there, right? Yeah. We'd be free to roam the neighborhood and we're getting more worried, I feel like, and I should put a big disclaimer. I'm a geratrix psychiatrist. I don't treat children on purpose, but you know, kids are more scheduled. They're given less freedom or less time for creativity. And I do think it's also impacting their social, you know, interactions and the quality of their social relationships. So I think it's, I think it's a big problem. And how we address that has to be more systemic. We have to think about it at school, at sort of earlier levels when they go to college, how does that impact them? And then get them ready for adulthood and what that's going to be like, especially if they're going to be in the sort of hybrid world, you know, of work and virtual remote work, things like that. We have one more doom and gloom before we start fixing our lives. Yeah. What is going on with loneliness and street men? Know our red somewhere that one in five men have no close friends, which is devastating. What is happening here? It seems really scary. I'm not exactly sure why things are worse than these to be because when you look at the reasons behind it, it seems like it's all related to traditional masculine, like men are allowed to be honorable, men are not allowed to ask for help. And you know, you need that in order to build a relationship, you need to build trust, you need to like sort of open yourself up a little bit to build strong relationships. I'm not sure if it's because things are virtual and so maybe it's harder to build those things, but it does seem that men have fewer friends than ever before and their social networks are really small. And the thing that worries me is if they're relying only on a partner and really bends, what do you do, right? Yeah, I had a friend and she just told me that her partner who is a straight guy, one of his friends was going through a breakup, I think, or someone died and he said to her, I don't know what I should do. And she said, well, call him and ask him if he wants to talk about it. He said, okay, and then she could overhear them and the other room and they talked for like an hour and it was great. But she was like, he didn't even know how to take that first step or what to do. And I was like, yeah, that is really sad. Yeah, I think it's like that traditional, like, you know, cockroach of masculinity that you're like not supposed to even appear vulnerable. Yeah, he needs to go away. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Hello, it's Jo and James from Jo and James Fact Top. And we're currently sponsored by Top Cashback. The UK's leading cashback site that adds joy whenever you spend money. Now, we both love spending money, but what's even better than spending money is getting cashback on the money you've spent. We've been finding it's great for everyday shopping as you can get money back on all the things you need and one. And by using Top Cashback regularly, it really builds up over time, and we're talking things like your worthy food shop, grooming products and even pet food. And then by saving money on the essentials, you can put that cash towards something a bit more fun. With over 6,000 brownies to shop at more than 20 years of trusted experience, Top Cashback makes earning while you spend easy. Join topcashback.co.uk today. Tired of the, I know it's here somewhere, moment. 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If something changes, you need to tell DWP, otherwise you could face a penalty. That could be a partner moving in, even if they keep their own place, or if your car doubles up as a taxi and a family car, you must only report work-related costs, or forgotten savings like premium bonds. To find out if you need to report a change, search tell DWP.!!!!!!!!!! Welcome back to Am I doing it wrong? How can we prevent and sue the loneliness? Like, just I'm thinking about building community the way no one I have our friendship appointments. But like, tell us what we should be doing, because we are one degree away from loneliness. I think having a better social network is definitely part of it, but the other side of it is trying to understand what it is you want. Like I said, there's sort of this multiple layer definition of loneliness. Like, what do you perceive, what do you want? And I think part of it is trying to make social interactions less stressful. Like, take away the barriers that would make you less likely to reach out. So, one big one is social rejection, so fear of being rejected socially. Yes. So, people will say, well, what if I, you know, try to reach out, or, and then they say no. Like, one example is if you're already feeling lonely, you're gonna be more likely to think that you're being rejected. So, if you're feeling lonely, you walk into work, and you think hide us someone and they don't respond, they may be more likely, if you're lonely, you might be more likely to think, oh my goodness, they don't like me, they're upset with me, what did I do? Yeah. You're not lonely, you might feel like, oh, they just didn't see me, or they're having a rough day. Yeah. You're gonna interpret things differently. And so, one thought is finding ways to reframe those sort of what we call negative social cognitions can be really helpful to sort of rethink about how to sort of prime yourself for a good social interaction. One other big one is altruism. So, reaching out to someone is you're sort of automatically setting yourself up to have a positive social interaction if you're reaching out. It's sort of like a helpful way, or if you're offering to help someone. And so, that can also be a very positive way to start, but it also is really fulfilling. You'll find it very meaningful and purposeful to try to help people. So, things like that can be a good other way to start. You know, if it's beyond just, I don't have enough friends, and I just need more friends and things will be better. It might be something more sort of underlying, something more mechanistic behind it. I love that. I think altruism thing is very underrated. Yeah. And it's also, this is weird to say, but it's very self-serving also. I find my favorite way to help people is to come over and play with their kids, my friends who have kids. And it is so joyful for me. No one says no to me because they're like, God, please, one hour away. Absolutely. My friends have little kids. We have the best time we're playing Hulk. I'm a big kid. And it feel I helped. I feel better. It's like, figure out what you have to offer, right? Like, what do we have to offer? Yeah, I love that. I also do love the idea of sort of splitting this into two different thought. Categories. Yeah. Like, one is the practical. So how are you going to find more people, more connections? Are you going to volunteer? Are you going to join a book club? Are you just going to put yourself in places that you're going to maybe have more opportunities? And then the second, like you were saying, Dr. Lee, too, is just more of a, the way you're thinking about things. The way that you're approaching the world, the way you're thinking about your connections, too. That also having that foundation seems really important. Yeah. Changing the way that you think about your interactions will change the way that you have your interactions, probably. Yeah. When it comes to combating loneliness as we get older, do you have thoughts about that? Is it going to be different when you're 20 versus when you're 60? I'll pay on that one and say no, right? We still have to do the same things. You still have to cultivate relationships. Like, I usually say, have a diverse of a social network as you can. So it's kind of like, well, you're going to ask it. Make sure your friends from work. Friends from a lot of class if you're into that. Friends from book club, and trying to have as many different ways for your social outlets to happen are important. And then cultivating all of those. Like, you need to nurture it, you need to water it, you need to be able to make sure that you're putting in the time and the effort. And like I said, if issues arise, make sure you actually can find it. Don't just let them fester and let the relationship with her. I think in the 60s, one thing that becomes tough is maybe there are fewer natural opportunities, right? Like in the 20s, you go to work. You, you know, if everyone's single, everyone's still looking for more friends. People have more time. And when you're 60s, people may have a lot of sort of competing obligations. People often say it's harder to make friends after you're 30 or 40, that age changing. You know, people are already in relationships. They have family obligations or busier. So you might have to schedule things more. So I would say, probably not. You might just be looking for slightly different things or, you know, different types of companionship or relationships when you're in your 60s versus in your 20s. You might be more focused on romantic partnerships in your 20s. But, but I would just say the same, the same types of things that probably help. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of cool. That's humbling. It is. I'm thinking even, you know, two weeks ago, there is a woman who works in our office and I see her all the time. And we would sort of say hello to each other because we always see each other. But I've never asked her what her name is. I've never asked her anything about herself. And two weeks ago, I had to say to myself, Noah, introduce yourself. And like, let's make this be a real connection. Yeah. And I did. And we had a really great chat. And now when I see her, it's even stronger, you know. I love that. But it's not easy for me. And I think of myself as a social person, growing up, I was not, you know, I think we've talked in the show before. Like I was really bullied. And so I was super introverted. And I was scared to talk to people because of what would happen to me. I had to sort of cultivate my relationship with the outside world. But even today is a 46 year old man who feels very outgoing. There's still times when I'm like, I have to literally talk myself into doing it. And I'm always happy that I did. Yes. Yeah. And you're such a lovely person to know. Like I feel like you're doing everyone, you know, a solid by being like, I tried. But I think even if it's someone like me who does, who is naturally outgoing at this point, there are so many people who are not. And so I get why it's hard for people to make these connections. Just saying hello to someone when they pass by you at the office. Yeah. Can be hard for a lot of people. Yeah. But I do think that it's worth doing. And even if it's scary, it's like, if you see someone go and say hello to them and see what happens. I'm like feeling emotional right now because I like, I totally understand the courage and like what it takes to do that. I feel like at our office too, we work in the same office, I have said hi to people. And now it gets to the point where like, people that we don't work with, there's hugs. Like I get hugs when I come to the office. Like I'm very emotionally thirsty, Dr. Lee. Like a hug for me goes a long way. You know that's like that oxytocin or like whatever that really tight platonic hug that's like happening? I don't know, I think oxytocin happens with sex. I'm off on the wrong side. But like whatever, endorphins, serotonin. Like it's so beautiful. But I think there's that thing about like take the first step. Yeah. The science backs you up actually. If you get a daily embrace it actually mediates the relationship between our moderate relationship between loneliness and mood. So you know, hugs are, hugs are healthy. You know, so good. People touch affectionate touch. These are all important things for health. And I have to say I've been seeing and speaking of hugs, I've been seeing these really cool compounds on Instagram where people in their 40s and 50s are like buying homes in the same area and living on like family and friend compounds. So they're able to get the physical relationships. It's sometimes like a sister and then like the sister and law and their partner and somebody's kid. And these are happening more. This is actually Calvin, my husband's dream company. He wants to buy land and have friends and family live on it. Which I used to laugh at him. I'm like, but now I'm like, is that the way to really just have a beautiful future? And I have to say my parents live in a community with their friends. Like they just all moved in and the same. We call it the old brown dorms because they're like South Asian and 65 and they party every day. I remember Celine Dion did the same thing. She bought like a neighborhood and she bought, I mean, she has billions of dollars so she can do this. It's a little different, but she bought like, you know, 12 houses and the entire neighborhood was just all of her friends and family and they all lived in the neighborhood. I think it can be done on a budget. Dr. Lee, like, isn't this like a kind of utopian future? Like, can we do this? I love it. I think that it's just going, what you're doing is you're creating a collectivist subculture within the US, which is this individual. And I think you're right, it does work. They're actually like a culturally themed retirement communities for older adults. Like I remember seeing one in Southern California that's specifically for Chinese American older adults. So that there's no language barrier. There's no cultural barrier. And I think it's a great idea. You know, I think the idea is you can go beyond just sort of your nuclear family. And age together and have some intergenerational relationships. I think it's great. Yeah, they have a queer one in Philadelphia too, especially again, like so many queer adults when they age too. They don't have partners. They don't have kids. They have a lot less of a network or a safety net. And so having these community homes for people who are queer who've had similar, you know, came up at a time when they faced homophobia or transphobia and they have similar experiences really healthy. And of course, the Golden Girls. I mean, the Golden Girls did it before any of us. And we know how well that turned out. They're the template. Yeah. They are the icons of everything. I love that. Will you talk to us a little bit about how gratitude practice can help us with holiness? I was hearing about this. Sounds really interesting. Yeah. And I think it sort of goes back to sort of like I said, the underlying mechanisms of loneliness. So if we think about gratitude, it's about being in the moment. It's about recognizing sort of the things that are going well on your life and the things that you should think beyond yourself. I always think of gratitude as being a way of sort of being self-transcendental. So you're not just focusing on your personal pain, your personal issues. You're looking beyond and you're seeing all the sort of the bigger, good things in the world. So I think it's great because it really fosters self-compassion, which I think is like one huge antidote to loneliness, is finding ways to sort of stay in the moment, be appreciative of sort of the larger picture of humanity and it makes a huge difference. It really sort of resets your thinking of social relationships in yourself. I love that. I started doing a gratitude thing in the morning that I do. And you're right. I instantly am thinking about the people in my life that I'm grateful for. And by thinking about those people, I feel more connected to them. And more excited to talk to them or see them. So it does seem like it just all sort of works together. I love gratitude practices, but even more. So I have some friends. I don't do this. I have one friend in particular, Chrissy, where she'll text and be like, thanks for her friendship. I really love hanging out with you. Or I had such a good time with you. And I'm like, oh my God, what a beautiful thing to vocalize. Yeah, that's very sweet. I want to do it more. Just letting the people you're thinking about them. Maybe you don't have to say exactly that, but I think popping up, we talked about this. When I do the friend's text, or someone, Dr. Lee sometimes, if it's been three or six months, I'll just look in my phone, someone I haven't talked to in that time, and I'll just text them and say, hey, here's what's going on with me, what's up with you. And I love that too. And I love getting them. It's beautiful. I love it. I have to ask about something that I really actually grinds my gears. In my culture, there's a big emphasis on partnering up. Like, your self-worth, especially as a woman for Indian American women, Indian women, is diminishes if you don't have a partner by 30. It's so terrible. So like, do we need a partner to feel less isolated, scientifically? So a lot of loneliness research that is based on huge populations, it's very shallow. We always say it's like a very shallow, like you can't really phenotype the people in it that well. And so often people rely on like marital status. That's a very quick way to assess if you're with somebody or with your, if you're not. But well, number one, that's not the only way to fulfill emotional intimacy and the things that, you know, really stave up loneliness. So I don't think that's a great proxy, and it tends to sort of oversimplify how people have social issues. Thank you. But I also think that what people are missing is that, you know, there's, if we think of social connection, we think about in three buckets of structural, where you start with just, do you have people in your life? Functional is like how you perceive their support or whether or not you feel lonely. And the last bucket is the quality of relationship. You may be a marriage, and it may not be that positive for you. Yeah. You'll lonely in a crowd. You feel lonely in a marriage. You know, there are a lot of ways that a relationship can actually have a lot of negatives for that person. So I think you have to think about, it's really, like, is that maybe quality for some people, but it doesn't seem to matter what nature it is. So as you're getting your needs in that, that's kind of the most important part of social connection. That's what I thought, and I love that. That makes so much, I mean, I unfortunately know people in relationships that are not good. Yeah. And they're definitely feeling lonely, you know, maybe maybe more lonely. They come home to a house that they don't feel like welcome or that they're not happy to be in. And I think social constructs provide a lot of illusions for us. Yeah. Yeah. When Dr. Alicia, someone seek help outside of, you know, just talking to a friend, why don't you they see a professional if they're dealing with these kind of feelings? Yeah. I mean, I'm such a huge proponent of psychotherapy. I would tell most people that psychotherapy could be helpful for them in some context. But I do think what's really important, though, is depression and loneliness are so strongly connected. They're definitely distinct. You can be sure us, lonely, it's pretty rare, but you can be lonely and not depressed. But I do think that you can be lonely and I can lead to depression in the life. So I always tell folks if things are starting to affect your functioning, if you're starting to feel like any of your metabolic issues are happening, like you're not eating well, you're not sleeping well, you're feeling more tired. And any of those things are important, sort of warning signals that maybe it's starting to move into more of a depression picture. But I always think therapy for all, really. I really think so many people could benefit from having sort of a professional talk to, work out things or even just help you strategize where to go and their short-term therapies or people in therapy for a long time. And you know, there's so many different modalities, so many things can work for each person. I, I, you're preaching to the choir. We love therapy in whatever form it comes in. I mean, therapy more times than not. Yeah. This is my break from therapy, the podcast. And it's also therapy weirdly. Unless you have any more knower, I would love to close with this one. What's one thing you'd ask everyone to add to their lives to feel more connected to others? That's a good one. Yeah, so I alluded to this a little bit earlier, but I think it's really about cultivating self-compassion. I think self-compassion is like I said, the secret antidote to loneliness. Self-compassion is three different things. It's being kinder to yourself, so self-kindness and self-judgment. So you make a mistake, you know, you go a little easier on yourself than you might. Number two is what we call common community. The idea is you're not being singled out for suffering, but you know, we're all part of the bigger picture and you know, you're sort of like against or self-transcendental, you're part of the bigger thing. And then the last part is really about being mindful, like staying in the moment, you know, feeling sort of connected to what's happening in the moment. And I think those three elements, if you can achieve that, it'll make things so much easier for you, both interactions with other people, but also within yourself. I think it makes it easier for you to navigate, you know, situations where you are working with other people. So I think self-compassion is kind of the key. If you, if we could cultivate that throughout our entire society, I think people would feel a lot less lonely. They'd be better partners, better friends. I love that. I love that too. It's a common thread, I feel like, with a lot of, yeah. You talk about a lot and I think it's easier said than done. There's a reason why we aren't nicer to ourselves. Yeah. There's so many, you know, outside forces that are saying don't be nice to yourself. Yeah. But I think you're absolutely right. If you have that as the, you know, the foundation, yeah. It's only up from there. Anything supporting your friends and being like, be kinder to yourself. Yeah. You know, that network, yeah, but I think I'm just even deflecting even more. I think I'm just trying to figure it out, I do it ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. This is a good start though, Dr. Lee. Thank you so much for spending the time. I think just talking about this for 45 minutes is a great place to begin. I love it. This was so helpful. Thanks for having me. This is really fun. It's time for better and five. These are your top five takeaways from this episode. Number one, fighting loneliness isn't just about surrounding yourself with people. It's about the quality of your connections. Number two, clarify what types of relationships you want, and you think will serve you best, and then work on maintaining those. Number three, tech and social media can be a great connector, but often it's the real life interactions that feed us the most. Number four, you don't need a partner to fight off loneliness. You can find intimacy and fulfillment in all kinds of relationships. And number five, if you're not sure where to start, practicing self-compassion is the best first move. So Raj, after all of that, have you been doing loneliness wrong? You know what? I think I'm pretty okay. I feel like I am actively trying to foster a community for the future, for today, all of it. So I feel good about that. But I do think the things she said about altruism really stuck out to me in self-compassion. I do want to be more helpful to others, because like I said, it feels good for everyone. And I do want to be like sweeter and kinder to myself. I mean, there's so many benefits to that. You're never going to lose if you're doing either of those things. I just kept thinking about how close we all are to being disconnected from each other. And I don't think it's going to get any better. I think there are so many reasons to feel bad about yourself and about each other right now. And so the more we can do, the more we can talk about it, the more we can think about it, the conversations like this, I think we're going to need more of them as we go forward. I totally agree. Until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do them better. I honestly love you guys. Do you have something you think you're doing wrong? Email us at, am I doing it wrong at huffpost.com and let us know. 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