1KHO 793: The Comfort We Never Outgrow | Alex Seeley, The Divine Counselor

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So I mean you're just talking about the book day after day after day after day but like you said you're already, before we started you were saying you're already hearing stories back and so that's a Joe wonderful thing. It's just so nice right to start to get that feedback. The book's only been out for just a little over a week. So I would love if you could kick us off with you. You've got a really interesting story. You've moved across the world. So you moved from Australia to Franklin, Tennessee. It's been a little over a decade but there was a part in the book that I was like oh this is really interesting. When you were talking about your childhood and you were talking about your childhood imaginary friend. Yes. Lisa. Yeah. And I just I was so drawn to this because you're talking about how in that time of the world, so people are listening and they grew up in the 70s or the 80s or the 90s or the 60s or the 50s. Like in those decades there just was less technology. So you said you're the youngest of four kids. You got to make your own fun basically and you're often alone. So you're in your room, you're outside on your swing and you said there was no video games, there's no technology to distract, to waste our time on. So you spent most of your time imagining, dreaming, pondering or conversing with Lisa. Yeah. Absolutely. You talked about the value in that, you know, and what you think might be lost when we just don't have that down time. Yeah. I think the art of boredom is so necessary because you can let your mind go to places that when you're so consumed with noise and visuals and information, you don't let your mind wander. And I feel like we're seeing a generation not imagine anymore. When not, you know, as you were talking, when you said I was pondering, imagining, I used to imagine living in another country. And I think it's so incredible. And at that time, that would have seemed absolutely impossible. You know, like there is nowhere. And I remember imagining what America would be like because, you know, I used to watch Sesame Street. That was about, you know, that we had five channels on our television. We didn't even have cable television in the 70s. You know, we had five channels. And we used to watch Sesame Street. And I remembered what would it be like to go to New York? What would it be like to go to America? But I would sit and ponder and imagine, I would be creative. I would talk to Lisa because honestly, my siblings were a lot older than me and they were busy. And I had two brothers ahead of me. And then my sister was like eight years older than me. So she was off doing her thing. My brothers were playing with one another. And I remember just going, well, my mum was like, there's nothing that, you know, there's nothing that I'm going to be doing for you. This is just, you know, when you're at home, it's like, okay, well, you got to make your own fun. But honestly, I think children have lost the of dreaming, imagining, pondering. And so much comes out of that. And I think we, you know, I'm so glad that my kids were just shy of the major technology season when they were little. And I loved watching my daughter, you know, set up tea parties in the lounge room and set it up like it was a full four-course meal for her teddy bears. And you just don't see that enough. And everyone's like looking at the screen. And so I loved having Lisa as my friend. Now, I knew she wasn't real, but it felt real. And I was able to talk and tell my feelings and share what I was going through. And I think kids need that. You read about it. And you're like, Oh, this is just a lost thing. But you can see the value of it, just the value of slowing down and working through your mind. What might it be like if I did this or that? And so then the story does come full circle because you did end up moving to the United States. What is, what's the story there? So you're in Australia and you have, you moved and then you started, well, it seemed like almost like a Bible study group in your basement. So you moved from Melbourne to Franklin in 2012. What happened? How? Well, we've been pastoring alongside our senior pastors in a church in Melbourne that was extremely successful and doing great. But God kept nudging us and saying, I think there's something for you in America. And we were like, America, like, who, what, how? You know, and I remember the Lord actually speaking to me in my heart and just saying, are you willing to go to nothing with nothing, but the power of my spirit? And I said, no, actually, I said, no. I said, that's too scary. I said, what do you mean to nothing with nothing? I'd need a job offer. I would need some sort of like security. And the Lord, you know, was prompting me through the book of Genesis about Abraham leaving everything and going to a land that God would show him. And I remember him taking us on a two year journey of just constant confirmations and this draw and this pull to just go to America and see what God had for us. So we applied for the green card lottery and supernaturally we got it. Like it was a miracle because it's like 50,000 people in the whole world get it. But 14 million people apply for it. Did you know that 14 million people and they only give 900 of the 50,000 that they give out in Australia. So you've got 900. So the odds are so against you. And we put out this fleece to the Lord and said, if you want us in America, we don't know why, but we feel this draw, give us the green card. And he did. And so we made our way, not knowing what we were going to do. My husband's been in music and production and, you know, audio engineering for years. So he was fine. He could work anywhere. Whereas I'd been a pastor of a church for 17 years now. And I didn't really know what prospects were going to happen for me. So we literally take our four year old and our eight year old, we move to the other side of the country. And we don't know what we're doing. And I'm like having a panic attack the day that we get here because we're homeless. We're living in a hotel for 10 days because the house that we had booked fully finished home to rent fell through as we were getting on the plane to America. And everything seemed to go wrong. And I just, I just laughed now at the Lord, the kindness of the Lord, where he was like, well, do you trust me? Do you still believe that I've sent you? And, you know, we just actually started meeting people that were hungry for more of God. And so we just opened a Bible study in our house on a Tuesday night and people were coming in their lives for getting impacted and changed. And within a year, we had 120 people in our basement. And everyone was like, is this a church? And we're like, no, no. And then it was two people who confirmed it for us that did not know anything about us. And we just knew the Lord was speaking. And we were obedient and we made it official. And we've been running now for 12 years. And it's a wonderful place to pastor. What a story. What a story, Alex. So it was interesting that you said for a bit of it, two years you said things were falling into place. And then you said there were constant confirmations. And then when the time came to actually show up, that's when a bunch of things start going wrong. Like totally. And then you truly were in the situation of going to nothing with nothing because your house falls through. We had no job. Wow, Alex. Did you end up then in a different home? Yeah, we actually, it was so funny, but a friend of mine who was American, who was living in Australia, her, she said, oh, my sister-in-law's mother is a realtor. Let me get you in touch with her. And it was just this, I'd done something on, I don't know, social media. And she just said, oh, let me get you in touch with Cheryl. And I was like, okay, who's Cheryl? And Cheryl was able to find us. We were in that hotel for 10 days, and we were able to move into a home in a really sweet neighborhood that had great schools for the kids. And it was just supernatural. And we ended up staying there six months. And then God just opened a door for us to move into this beautiful, massive house, which I think he knew what he was doing, because that's where we could fit 100% of the basement. And this man who'd built this house actually had dug out a basement so that his sons, because they were Canadian, could play indoor hockey and practice at home. And so we had this massive basement. And now when I see the kindness of God, where he just offers it to us and says, hey, would you like to rent our house? We love that you've taken a step of faith, but we're about to move back to Canada. And we're offering you our house to rent. And we ended up staying there six years before we bought our own home. But again, we just watched God do miracle after miracle after miracle. And he always honors your yes, even when it doesn't look like the perfect line that you think you should be on. So this group in the basement, which is called the Belonging Co was birthed in 2014. It's just been a little over a decade. And now that is an actual, I mean, I would say it was an actual church before too, but a little bit more official now in the Franklin, Tennessee area. Well, we are actually in the Nashville area, but we also have a location in Franklin and Columbia, Tennessee. So we have three locations now. And it's yeah, it's really big and it's beautiful. And we love it. Could you ever have imagined? No, no, not at all. Because that was not the purpose in why we came to America. We really didn't know what we God had for us. But we knew ministry, like we knew how to love people well. And but we saw a need, we saw people hungry for a touch of God like that they haven't because, you know, the South can be very religious and people go to church, but they don't encounter the Holy Spirit. And that's I think something that we carry that we were able to introduce to people and their lives were being wrecked and changed, marriages were being restored, addictions were being broken, torment, anxiety, depression was falling off people. It was miraculous. And that's why the people kept coming. I stopped inviting people because everyone was inviting their friends. So people can go on to YouTube actually and to and listen to some of your sermons there at Belonging Co. I'll put the link in the show notes. What a story, Alex. And so you stayed, obviously, you came in, you stayed. How did you even, I always wonder this, like if someone obviously there's huge countries in the world, but then some are smaller, you come to the United States, there's 50 states to choose from. And then within each state, I mean, like you just said, Nashville area is different from Franklin is different from Cookville isville however people say it, you know, is different from Chattanooga, you know, there's all of these different pockets of where you could end up. What was that process like? How did you make the choice when you first came to know where to even settle down to begin with? Yeah, well, we've been to Nashville and to Franklin, especially many, many times because like I said, my husband's been in the music industry for 20 plus years, and he would work with a lot of artists and bands and he traveled himself as an artist. And so Franklin made the most sense because of his work. And we thought we would just trial it. Like we thought, well, let's land in Franklin. And it's great for our kids. It feels very similar to where we grew up as kids in Adelaide, South Australia. And I was like, okay, well, let's just give it a year, you know, let's see how we feel. Because my heart was really, I want to go to New York, I'm going to go to LA, I want to go to a big city, you know. And when I got to Franklin, Tennessee, it is like this gorgeous little small town. Not anymore because all of California moved into it 2020. But at the time, 2012, when we came here, it was this quaint, beautiful community and everyone was so kind. And I didn't really like it at first because it was so different to what I was used to. But then I started to fall in love with the people. And I think the people make the place, you know. And when we started to minister with the people, we ended up just staying here. And, you know, we've been here ever since. We've never moved anywhere except that we landed in Franklin, we live in Franklin, we have a church in Nashville, Franklin and Columbia, and we love Tennessee so much. Yeah, we love it too. We live in Michigan, we come down and visit quite a bit because it's so beautiful. And we do sometimes say if we were to have moved there, it should have been a while ago. Because it was like way cheaper, even just seven, years ago, eight years ago. I remember we would look here and there and be like, wow, look what you can get for this amount of money in Tennessee. Not anymore. Not anymore. Well, it's good for us because we bought and built in the right time. But yeah, yeah, because it is such a beautiful area and it's got kind of that climate, but you still have the seasons. Okay, so kind of going back to your imaginary friend, Lisa, this book that you wrote, which is called The Divine Counselor, is about how we have kind of, I mean, as cheesy as it sounds like a forever friend, but even better than that. Someone who is a counselor, someone who intercedes for us, someone who has a solution to all of our problems. Can you talk about why out of all of the things in the Bible that someone could write about, why you chose Holy Spirit? Because I think he's the most neglected part of the Godhead in the Big Sea Church, I think. And yet he's very, very important because Jesus in his last week of being on the earth said, it's better that I go so that I can send you my Holy Spirit to be with you, to lead you, to guide you in all truth, to be my spirit, to convict you of sin, and to actually be the presence of Jesus living inside of us. And it would be like having Jesus walking with us like the disciples did for three years. That's what we get. And I don't think people know how to access him as a friend. I think we have done a disservice in the Big Church where we've represented him as a ghost, a fire, an oil, a dove, a wind, which he is likened to all of those things in the Scriptures, but you find that hard to relate to a bird or a fire or, you know, you're not going to confide in oil, you're not going to give your heart of hearts to some object. A ghost. A ghost. I mean, it sounds weird. And I think nonbelievers will always be like, oh, holy ghost, what does that actually mean? It just means he's the spirit of God. And that's why it was so important to me because he has changed my life. His role in Scripture is to point us to Jesus. It's to reveal the words of Jesus. It's to heal our soul. It's to open the Scriptures up to us and bring illumination and revelation. And so, how do we do this Christian walk without him? How do we parent without the person of the Holy Spirit? Who's the great one who knows all things? Who's the mind of Christ? How do we function through our trauma and the issues of our life without the very spirit of Christ living inside of us? And so that's why I'm passionate about it because I don't think enough people are talking about it. As we move towards summer, everything starts to look a little different. The schedule loosens up. There's more time outside, more travel, more life happening, and that's a really good thing. 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When they sign up today at IXL.com slash 1,000 hours, visit IXL.com slash 1,000 hours to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price. Well, you talked about, and I thought, I thought this was really intriguing. You talked about your own story. Experiences, patterns of abuse and rejection that led to addiction, oppression, and self-loathing. You yourself are a living testimony that you can really make changes. Then you talk about that this is what's happening with these people that are coming into your home, you know, they're coming every other week, then it becomes an every week thing. You were like, oh, you know, is it really going to be an every week thing? But what you were seeing was that people who believed in God, they believed in Jesus, but they were still in bondage to a lot of these different issues. And they were able to overcome. Even though in some cases they might have thought it was impossible. So you talk about your mom did this too. Yes. And you have stories in the book as well. Like even you've got your husband's story and your kid's stories are in there, but other people's stories about breakthroughs that they've had. So that's a lot of options. But do you want to talk about one of those, whether it's your mom or one of the stories in the book of someone who was able to overcome even though they thought they maybe wouldn't be able to? Yeah. Well, there's lots of beautiful stories. And the reason why I put the stories in there is because I want you to see it's not just a theory. This is actually reality. One of the stories, I mean, my mom is a classic example. She grew up in the, she was born in 1943. And you didn't talk about mental health in the 60s. Women just suffered in silence. And I, my mom actually had two nervous breakdowns by the time she was 40. She had four children. She only wanted two, but they were Catholics. So there was no putting a stop on procreation. And she was, you know, young, a young mom. And she was battling with the trauma of her past, her childhood, where she was verbally and physically abused and also taken out of school at a very young age, because in the 40s and 50s, women in where my mom grew up in Italy, the education was unnecessary, but my mom was eager to learn. And she was just told, you know, you're going to get married, have kids and live your life. Like you can't aspire to be anything, but a wife and a mother. And not that I am diminishing being a wife and a mother, they're very important roles. But for her, she had a desire to do more. And then at the age of 19, she moves to a whole other country where she can't speak the language. And she didn't really want to go. Her parents kind of said, all the siblings have to go together. This is a better life for you. They kind of made the decision for her. And so she was very sad. And she didn't know what to do with that. She became a born again believer. Before I was born, I was, she was 30 when she had me a couple of years before. And so she'd always known God, she was Catholic, but she never understood the healing power of the Holy Spirit and Jesus combined. And it wasn't until she began to honestly be schooled in her little secret place in her closet where she would cry out to God, where God would reveal truth in the Word of God, which would begin to unravel the onion layers of all the pain and the trauma. She learned how to go to God with her problems. She learned how to give him her cares. And I believe she broke a generational cycle so that I could then encounter God. And I could actually be free. And even though she did repeat some of those patterns of the verbal abuse and the physical abuse, because that's all she had known, there was a beautiful healing that was able to take place in my life. And so, you know, we have generational patterns throughout our life. And if we don't allow the Holy Spirit to come in and reveal those wounds of our past, we just keep just projecting and reproducing after ourselves and we don't change. And so with my mom, I've seen a complete change where I think, you know, I know I'm not a doctor, but I think from her actions, her behavior when we were young, I think she would have been diagnosed bipolar in this generation. But yet God delivered her from that, healed her from that. And we have an incredible relationship. She is one of my greatest cheerleaders and mentors. And that's the power of how the Holy Spirit can actually bring healing to trauma from your childhood. And you just go through story after story in the book, talking about everything from issues that we think we may be, can never fix to things like being reactive to night terrors, things that affect kids, to things that affect adults. And you talked about your son, you know, he dealing with fear, he'd fallen out of a tree of all things on this podcast, you know, talk about like it's mostly safe to be outside. But then we had a kid that fell off a bike this week and had to get a couple stitches. So, you know, sometimes stuff has happened. The nurse at the urgent care said, well, what happened if you would have been inside? That's terrible. He needs to be outside. But you just go through so many examples because what you say in this book, it's called the Divine Counselor. You say the issues in our interior life never just work themselves out. The issue that you are facing may not be your fault. But even though it may not be your fault, it has become your problem. And so you kind of walk through, you walk the reader through the counselor, the friend, the Holy Spirit, who can guide you in all of these things and who even intercedes for you. I've always loved that verse. The Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for. I mean, how many times are you in that situation? Even in your story from the very beginning, where you move and you're in a hotel for 10 days, you don't even know. You're like completely in the dark. What am I even supposed to pray for? I don't know what kind of home I'm supposed to pray for, what area I'm supposed to pray for. But yet you can see that the Holy Spirit, if the Holy Spirit intercedes for you, that's how you end up in a home where the kids played hockey in the basement. What? Literally. Honestly, I've never even heard of that, let alone in Tennessee. I know. Hockey is a little bit more popular in Michigan and then obviously further north into Canada. It was miraculous. And that's what it was like. God had something in mind all along. I think we underestimate how much He orders our steps if we allow Him to and if we lean in to listen to Him. And that's the key and the advantage that we have that Jesus talked about when the Holy Spirit becomes one with us and that we actually listen to His voice. What an incredible resource. You walk the reader through how to do all of that. And you also say a lot of people will say to you or they'll read the book and they'll say things like, why wasn't I ever taught this growing up? It's a big missing piece. And life has a lot of twists and turns. And so this is really important that we know to listen and we know that we can trust to know that the Holy Spirit would be interceding for us on our behalf. And we don't even know what to do. But yet you see that, like you said, those ordered steps, this is important because you say mental health issues are at an all-time high even within the church. So this is obviously an important book to read because of those things too. One of the things that you bring up in this book that I have never, never heard of. And I read it and I thought, gosh, this makes a lot of sense. So we talk a lot about kind of father issues, right? So in the United States in particular, I think there's a percentage of kids that grow up without a father present. There's certainly a percentage of kids with like an angry father or a distant father, one that's working all the time. So then we talk about like how that can sometimes skew your view of God because we say God the Father. But then you said that there's also a mother heart. Okay. I was like, I've never heard this, Alex. God embodies and this would make sense. He made men and women in his image. So I guess it would make sense that God would also have the female attributes. You are God embodies the fullness of both male and female attributes. Male is a biological word and God is not a biological being. I thought, oh my goodness, like when people, even in the story about your son, Taylor, and he falls out of the tree, he's yelling for mom. Yes. Most of the time people yell for their mom. And yet you never consider the attributes of like comfort and the mother love as something that God possesses. And yet you're saying he totally does. He has to. Otherwise we wouldn't have been created the way we are. We're not created from nothing. We're created in the image, in his likeness. And I think what trips people up is because we refer to God as a him and a father and Jesus as a son. But the Holy Spirit, as I even write in there, you will often see the Holy Spirit referred to with female pronouns in the scriptures because it's a her. Wisdom is a her. And so, and you think about it, the attributes of Holy Spirit are comforter, teacher, guide, standby, which is often the role of the mom. When a kid falls out of the tree like Taylor, he wants mom to bring comfort. He wants mom to soothe the, you know, like your child having stitches. You want mom to put the bandaid on. You want mom to give you that chicken soup when you're sick. It's the nurturer. It's the comforter of Holy Spirit. And it's incredible because I had mother wounds. And when I was able to see God the Father as a mother as well, I was able to really connect at a deep level of healing. Because that which I had skewed even in my relationship with my mother growing up, God was able to heal and go to those deep places and nurture me, comfort me. And the fact that I am a woman, you know, and I love being a woman. And I think, man, the very attributes that make me female, that make me a nurturer, the comforter, the counselor to my children, comes from the heart of God. And so he has a mother heart. And I back it all up with scripture. So I'm not weird. It doesn't make God a woman. But it says that he has those character attributes that we do. Okay, wow. I mean, I've never heard anybody say it, but then it does make so much sense. Where else would they have come from is what you're saying. Exactly. These sort of parts of us that make us male and female, these typical attributes that we would have. So you say, and this is true, I believe we all long to have a mother whose lap we can collapse into and whose arms we can sob in without judgment. We all need to see a person who receives us full of mercy and grace. It's a different picture than a father figure. Yes. And this is why I think too, the church has got a disservice in not allowing women in the pulpit and in the ministry. Because just like a healthy family, and I know that there are probably listeners out here that don't have a husband and a father in your home right now. And you are being both parents and I commend you and I honor you for that. But the picture that God created was mother and father with children. That's the family unit because we get the balance of both. But isn't it crazy that you go to church and you only see the male? You only see the male perspective. And that's why I think honestly, there's such an assignment on that mother heart of God. And it's pushed so many people away, women who have been hurt, women, you know, I often think of the fact that if I wasn't in my church, you know, there are women that have been sexually abused and by a man, why would they want to go to a man and confide all the things that actually where the fear and the triggers are. But you need sometimes a woman to come alongside and hear those things. And so just like a male and a female in a family unit, bring this complete beautiful picture, we should be able to do that. And that's why we see God in the garden actually command Adam and Eve to be one and together and they're equal. It was the sin that caused them to be lopsided. And now, but then what Jesus did is he came back and he reinstated us no more male or female Jew, Gentile, slave free, you're all one in Christ. So he's brought it back to that beautiful equal parts, male and female. This is fascinating. This is fascinating. You have verses in here from Isaiah. I'm like, however, I never heard this perspective in my entire life. Well, there's actually verse after verse. There's the one about the hen. That's a mother. The hen gathers her chicks under her wings. There's the one about can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has born. Though she may forget, I will not forget. You see, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands. That's in Isaiah. Then another one as a mother comforts her child. So I will comfort you and you'll be comforted over Jerusalem. I'm reading these from your book, The Divine Counselor. But here's what you say. You say God compares himself not only to a mother, but to a nursing mother. In these words, he is expressing the kind of love that will rise up a thousand times. This is such a beautiful part of the book. I didn't even type out the whole thing because it just kept going and going. But I'm going to read it right from the book. He is expressing the kind of love that will rise up a thousand times in the night to care for the crying child. She will wait up until her child comes home and she knows they are safe in their bed. She will get up and tend to her children, even though she herself is unwell. She will forfeit her dinner just so her child will not go hungry. She will wake up. I mean, all of these things, they make you think about a mom. She will brave the cold wind to watch her son play baseball. You know, from the ice cold bleachers, she will endure the heat and humidity. That's Tennessee, right? And watch her son play football. She will bake and cook their favorite meals just because she wants them to know they are loved. I've never in my life considered even attaching those qualities to God. Yeah, he wants, he loves us. He is love. He doesn't even feel love. He doesn't come in and out of love. He embodies love. So therefore, he can't do anything but love. And his love is always displayed in action. And his greatest love is that he gave his only son. Like for goodness sake, like that should resonate for eternity with us. That if he loved us that much, that he gives his one and only son to go on the cross, which was meant for us, punishment and death. And he says, now I'll put my innocent child in place of your dirty sin to save you, because that's how much I love you. Are people shocked when they hear this? You wrote, God is a greater expression of motherhood than any human mother, even in the fullness of her nurturing nature. He is the original source of it. He is the original expression of motherhood. He has an infinitely greater capacity to comfort you and love you tenderly. People just kind of like melt trapped. Like, I mean, my brain was like, huh, the chapter I think was called, the chapter is called the mother heart of the father God. And I was like, huh. And then I read it. And I was like, this makes a lot of sense. And it changes your whole perspective. Like, you know, for the kid that just needs comfort that fell off their bike. And who do they run to? So do you find that a large portion of people are like, I've never heard that before, Alex. Yes. When I preached that I preached that message. Gosh, a few Mother's days ago, you know, a few years ago. And I remember people literally having a light bulb moment. And it healing so many areas of wound, especially when you have, you know, mothers have abandoned their children, but God's a perfect mother. And even if you've got the best mother, he's a better mother than you are on earth. And, you know, he loves your kids without reservation. I find that he loves my kids more than I love them. That's hard. For some moms, they're like, no way, God does not love my kids as much as I love. I would die for my kids. Well, you know what? So did God. And he actually did it. And that's the crazy part of it. He loves us with an everlasting love. And that's the love that drives out fear. When you actually allow that comfort and that love to envelop you, you can move mountains because you know, you've got someone behind you and alongside of you that will fight for you, that will defend you. And that's also what the Holy Spirit does. He's your advocate. He is your defense attorney. He is the one that comes in and loves you forever. I had a friend I went to college with and her mom left. She was a twin and she had an older brother and the mom just like left when they were really little. And, you know, it's like, oh, it's like a hard part of the story. And it does feel different. Like if your mom leaves them, they're both obviously horrendous. I'm just saying they feel different. You know, I think we're in in a society where a little bit more used to like the deadbeat dad, God, the deadbeat dad, he, you know, he left the family, he's not providing. You hear less often, like, you know, the mom left, but, but then I had this friend. And so you talk about that there's this sozo inner healing method. Yeah. Where people go through the father ladder and, and try and figure out, you know, because when you say God, the father, some people obviously have not had a good experience. But obviously it's like we need both. We need the mother ladder too. Yeah. It's the father. It's so the father ladder has how we relate to our natural father will impact how we relate to Father God, how we relate to our natural mother is how we relate to Holy Spirit and how we relate to our siblings and our friends is how we relate to Jesus. Oh, that's so interesting. Okay. The book is fascinating. It's called The Divine Counselor. There's a lot of nature references in here. So one of the ones that you talk about is when you hiked, you, you hiked to the Swiss Alps. Yeah, I did. Can you talk about the experience from getting to where you were hope, you know, getting to whatever summit it was and taking in that view? Yeah, I had never, it had been a bucket list for me. And I always wanted to summit a mountain, you know, a real mountain, not a hill or some, you know, small thing I wanted to go above, you know, I think ever since I watched Sound of Music as a child, you know, yes. And in Austria, you've got these mountains and the snow caps. And, but honestly, we were in Switzerland and I just seen God do a miracle in, in my family. And I got to the top and through that, I write about it in the, in one of the chapters, but, you know, I doubted God and I was really sad at God. And I think some days we can have faith for so much, but when something is really, you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel, you start to doubt God's faithfulness and God had made the miracle, done the miracle. And then a few months later, we got to go to Switzerland and I summited this mountain, you know, I think it was 10,000 feet above ground level. And I, it took my breath away because when we got to the top, I was literally surrounded by the summits of so many other mountains. And I thought this was just one mountain, yet there were mountain ranges across the landscape. And I literally, I couldn't actually breathe, you know, when you start crying and you're like, you know, and, but it was this overwhelming sense of how big God became to me. Like I'd always known God to be big, but I think I was seeing it visually. And, and then the fact that he had created flowers on the top of this mountain that perhaps until we had that gondola, like who was ever going to summit this mountain, you know, but yet God thought to put the details of beauty on the top of this mountain. And it just exploded my view of how big God is and how small I was. And that's when I had this realization. How could I have ever doubted God in any situation? This is the God that spoke this mountain into being. And yet this is not the only place that has beautiful mountain ranges. This is like one part of the world. And yet he spoke the entire world and it's into existence. And I, it was solidified faith in me that day that I was like, I can never doubt you. It would be one of me to doubt you in anything. And I can honestly say, I don't doubt God anymore. I don't. I may not understand, but I don't doubt him. What an experience. I love how you write about it in the book. You say, obviously your immediate reaction was to cry because this is the most breathtaking view you'd ever experienced. You're so overcome by the beauty and grandeur of God's creation. You feel his presence in the most profound way. And you say being there shifted my perspective and reminded me that God is so much bigger than anything I will ever face. And I love that these parts of the story, there's, you know, the simple parts of being on my swing as a child and having time to ponder and dream and imagine that's part of the story. And then also these sort of this mountain top experience. It just goes to show you that the shift happened outside the shift, seeing creation. So whether that's you have the opportunity to see the Milky Way and all the stars, you know, on a dark night, you go camping, whatever, whatever it is, it can really affect your spiritual life. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. He's big and he wants you to know him. Yeah. Okay. Another nature reference that you had in here too was so talking about the Holy Spirit, that's what this book is about, the divine counselor, renew your mind, heal your soul and discover your purpose through the guidance of the Holy Spirit is you compare this to climbing Mount Everest and having a Sherpa. And I think that's a great comparison. Can you talk about some of the things that we could learn from thinking about doing something like life really is like climbing Mount Everest? It is. There's so many things that you don't know. There's dangerous turns, there's things that you could mess up. And it's better to have a guide. Absolutely. When I was studying it, and I've never climbed Mount Everest myself, but you know, when I was reading about it, I was like, Oh, wow, there are people that know this mountain. They have walked it, they've studied it, they understand it. And why on earth would you try and summit a mountain that is so dangerous for people? And so many people have died along the way because I would want to go with somebody who knows. It's like jumping out of a plane, to do. Yeah, strap me to somebody else who's already done it before. I'm going to go with someone who knows what they're doing. I'm not going to go swimming with the sharks on my own. I'm going to go with a deep dive person. So that Sherpa is put there to bring you the supplies that you need to tell you when to rest, when you need to stop, when you need to go to base camp. They've checked the ropes, they're guiding you. And that's what the Holy Spirit is like. He's he knows the way forward. He knows what's going to happen right at the end. And you want to stay near the one who knows best, and he becomes your guide. And that's why he points you to Jesus. He says, Okay, now we need to stop. Now we need to rest. Now we need to do this. And that's how they summit the and isn't it amazing that in those last, I think, I don't know, there's a small portion that they think there's only 600 meters or something to get to the summit. Most people will forfeit their Sherpa because they go, I've got this. I've got it. I'll make it to the top. And that's often the most dangerous part. And sometimes we can get a little comfortable like, I've got this God, I'll leave you here. And I'll go. Wow. When you're so close, when you're so close, you know, you're moving to Tennessee and you're like, Yeah, you're so close. Wow. That's so interesting. Yeah, of course. Like you, logically, you want to you said you want to go with someone who knows what they're doing. Yeah. Yep. And that's what this book is about is doing your life alongside the Holy Spirit. And he is the best counselor you'll ever meet. And he advocates for you even when you can't find the words he guides you to true healing breaks destructive mindset speaks with clarity, empowers you to live in victory and overcome life challenges. That's what the book's about. What a book. What a book. Okay, I would love if you would tell people about your mentorship program. So I'm curious about the name. First of all, it's called Paper Girl Curators. But you say that women have sometimes been overlooked in the world of ministry or the marketplace. Yes, it's very true. They feel they need to compete with men and along the way aspects of their femininity have been forfeited due to the risk of being perceived as weak. You say, I believe you can be a powerful woman and still be feminine, a woman made in the image of God can know her identity and strength and doesn't have to prove herself to anyone. So you've been doing this for years, you know, that people are constantly saying, Alex, will you please mentor me? And so you came up with this mentorship program. Yeah, so I just felt that there was a real lack in this space of women leadership, especially in the church, but this is also for marketplace leaders as well. So if you run a business or you're even a full time mom, because I think you have to be very, very, very business minded to be a full time mom. But you know, wherever that place that you're always leading someone, whether it's your children, whether it's the staff, whether it's a group of volunteers, whatever it is, you are leading somebody. And I think with women, we get overlooked a little bit and there aren't other women championing other women. And I think for me, I never really had a lot of women. I had a couple of women in my life championing me. But overall, I lived in a very strong man's world, especially in the ministry. A lot of men do ministry, a lot of men preach, a lot of men travel and the space for women was very small. So the reason why I call it paper girl is two reasons is because I am an old school paper person. I still write my sermons with paper and pen. And then I put them in the computer, but I love paper. I love books, real books. I don't do digital. As you can see my crazy messy library. You have got stacks. I definitely noticed that. Yeah. And then there's like, they're full of underneath and they're in boxes. So I've got books, books, books upon books, but I love paper. And also, I don't know if you remember, but you know, there used to be a paper boy on every corner in a main city with the good news. And I feel like I'm the paper girl on every corner shouting out the good news of the gospel. Here's the paper. Read all about it. This is about Jesus. And so, and the curator part is that all of us are curating something for people to enjoy and to witness and to experience. And whatever sphere of life you're in, we want you to be able to curate who you are and reveal who you are. And so I started this mentorship program and it's been, I think I've done seven rounds now. I'm going to do another one in the fall. And it's just, it's a wonderful time we get on Zoom. I get, I, I cap it at like 50 women a season and we just, I able to ask questions and really go deep, pray for one another. But I just give the basics of, okay, what does it mean to be a feminine but fierce woman of God? You know, what does it look like to get your internal world so secure that you're not having to battle insecurity, competitiveness, comparison, but you can actually be completely who God's called you to be. And we need you. We need your fingerprint. We need your voice. You don't need to look like me. Talk like me. You need to be yourself. And I celebrate every single individual woman because collectively we're stronger and better together. I love the name of that. I love that. Like the paper boy, but the paper girl. Yeah. That is so clever. The website is alexsealy.com. And if you go there, you're going to find a lot of information about this book. And then you can go to the YouTube and watch some of the sermons. But if you go to alexsealy.com slash paper girl curators, that's where you can find this. Have you found that people have formed some lasting friendships? I would imagine. Yes, they do. Yeah, we used to break up in groups on the zoom. And so when I would finish my session, they would all kind of connect. And I would try and put people in groups that if you're a pastor of a church, you go here. If you're a business owner, you go here. If you're a health professional, you go here. And so that they've been able to build community and lasting friendships. What an incredible service. And it's starting up again in the fall. Okay, so people can be aware of that. Yeah, you can sign up. Yeah, they can sign up soon. Now, soon. Yeah, they can like you can email anytime. And I keep you on a list. And then when we go forward, which will be probably August, September, then we'll shoot you an email and tell you all the details. I love that. What a great idea. You've got a lot of great ideas. This is a four week program or for the course of four weeks. And you're going to come out with some new friends. Yeah, that's wonderful. That's wonderful. Well, Alex, this has been such an honor. The book is called The Divine Counselor. A book that is, you know, probably even if you've read a lot of books about faith and Christianity, like this is possibly going to have a lot of new stuff in there for you. It did for me for sure. The Divine Counselor. So this has been such a sweet time getting the chance to know you and to talk about this book. We always end our show with the same question. The question is what's a favorite memory from your childhood that was outside? Oh, gosh, a favorite memory that was our, oh, when we used to go, there was a creek across the park, like my cousin and I would go outside and we would collect tadpoles. And it was probably my favorite memory as a child where we would have a little net and we would have our jars and we would, you know, want them to turn into frogs. But I don't think we cared for them properly. So they died prematurely. But these tadpoles were just, it was so fun catching tadpoles. I've thought often about how God, and there's that verse in, it's so cool. It's in Proverbs. It's the one you're going to know better than me, but it's the one where it talks about like the stately lion and it's like very poetic and it talks about how lizards are in palaces. Lizards can be caught by the hand, but they're also in palaces. And I just have thought often about how God made creation to have these elements, like to have all this range of animals that some you can catch, some you could never catch. You can't, I mean, if you really can't catch a bird, but for little kids, you can go and catch a tadpole and there's there's and there's a challenge to it, right? Yeah. But also it's possible the same with the lizard, you know, we used to have these little geckos lizards back in Australia. And if you pulled, if you pulled them to grab them by their tail, the tail would drop off because it was their safety mechanism that God created so that they could run away from their predator. And then it regrows. Yes. It's a miracle. It's a miracle. Unbelievable. I love that answer because it does, it just reminds you that God made it that way for our, I think, in part just for our enjoyment, you know, to like have a little bit of a challenge and to be able to interact with his creation. So huge congrats, Alex. What a book, The Divine Counselor. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.