When Life Has Other Plans with Maya Shankar

Okay, parents, quick check in. If your brain feels like it's holding everyone's schedule, except your own, you're not doing it wrong. You're carrying a lot. I see this all the time, school emails, activities, chores, dinner plans, and somehow it all lives in one person's head, usually moms. And that gets exhausting. That's why I love Skylight Calendar. It's a smart touch screen calendar that takes everything swirling around in your brain, schedules, chores, meals, grocery lists, and puts it in one place where the whole family can actually see it and participate. It syncs with Google, Apple, Outlook, all of it, and you can color code each family member. So there's a lot less, wait, I didn't know in your house. Plus with the free Skylight companion app, you can add or update events, lists, and more on the go. And I appreciate this. If after 120 days, you're not 100% happy, you can return it for a full refund. No questions asked. Right now, you can get $30 off a 15-inch Skylight calendar at myskylight.com slash Becky. That's m-y-sk-y-ly-ght.com slash Becky. How do you feel about change? I find change really, really hard. And most parents, I know say that's the hardest thing about parenting. It's a constant game of whack-a-mall. It's a roller coaster where you never know when you're about to get on that next dip. Change is so hard. When I did my TED Talk a number of years ago, I met the incredible Dr. Maya Shankar. She was doing her TED Talk all around the topic of change. And I kind of became obsessed with her thoughts and then with her. And I'm so excited that now she has a whole book on the topic called The Other Side of Change. She totally reframs what change is really about, what makes it hard, and what we actually forget about ourselves in the moments when change feels so impossible. This is a conversation that I needed for myself. And I promise you whether it's about your parenting life, your adult relationships, work, moving, divorce, whatever change you recently went through or going through, this is going to be profoundly helpful to you. I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. We'll be back right after this. Hi, Maya. Hi, Vex. How are you? I've been looking forward to this conversation. I know we've been talking about it. I've been withholding all my questions until this moment. I know I'm so happy to be here and to get to talk to you about my upcoming book and all this work. And yeah, you're such a fun conversationalist. You wrote a book on change. Tell me, like, why? Why did you write a book about change? I think it's because I've always been really scared of change. And I had formative experiences with change as a kid. I've had experiences with changes as an adult. And I have always felt so unprepared for those moments and was so curious about why the experience of unexpected change is so disorienting for us as humans. And research show is that in part, it's because change is accompanied by so much uncertainty. And our brains are not wired to like uncertainty. So one of my favorite research studies shows that we are more stressed when we're told we have a 50% chance of getting an electric shock than when we're told we have a 100% chance of getting an electric shock. And it sounds kind of wild, Becky, right? Like why is it that we would have that response? But it also feels so intuitive and resonant for me. Like, yes, bring on all the shocks. I just want to know how the story ends. I hate not, I hate having ambiguity, you know, in my life. And so wrestling with that and then understanding also how change can threaten our identities in really profound ways led me on this expedition to find the most extraordinary stories of change that I could in the world. But importantly to find ones that had a very universal lesson within them that could help all of us navigate change with more ease and more possibility. And that's what led me to the other side of change. That's what led me to this book. We are more scared when we are told there's a 50% chance of electric shock than a 100% chance. And there's that makes sense and is counterintuitive to me at the same time. Tell me if this is along the same lines that I feel like as humans, we're kind of built to solve problems. Like we're pretty good at solving problems. Like, okay, even something horrible, like I'm just going to say, my kid was just given some really serious medical diagnosis. Like I have the diagnosis, okay, there's a name for it. I'm going to find a specialist, I'm going to call, I'm going to figure out how to try to get in. I'm going to hear if there's other doctors, I'm going to fly to the specialized hospital. Like if you really think about that, there's a lot of logistics, a lot of emotions, a lot of things to do. But I think you can think about the mobilization around that versus you have that first doctor's appointment and someone says, oh, there's something a little odd and something I'm noticing with your kid. Let's look into it or, you know, let's do another test. And I mean, the thought of that in my body, it does. It feels way more uncomfortable than the first scenario. Like the waiting, the not knowing, in some ways, the waiting, not knowing uncertainty without the ability to mobilize. I know for me, it's like my body does not like that. No, no, no, just hear you talk about it in the hypothetical. So yes, I mean, that is exactly true. So look, I think in everyday life, we all fall prey to what psychologists call the illusion of control. So we love having our hands firmly on the steering wheel, believing that we are dictating outcomes and we are able to control how our lives turn out. And so much research shows that we overestimate the degree to which we're in control, that we're in charge. And I think what happens when a big change comes our way when the proverbial anvil drops from the sky is it shatters that illusion, right? It immediately reminds us, oh my god, some of this is just a fiction in my head. This idea that I wasn't I wasn't control. It's just not true. And now I have to contend with the limits of those of that control. And I so resonate with what you said, because I by nature am a very action oriented person, right? I will try to outwork every problem. I will try to hustle my way through every problem. And you know this because we're friends outside of this, but I've had a very challenging journey in the wanting to become a mom's face over the last many, many years. And my husband and I have still been unable to have kids and to start a family. We've been met by so many disappointments and obstacles and failures and heart breaks over the years. And I think and that was actually the moment where I realized like I had to write this book because what was so obvious to me then was, oh my god, I think the reason why I'm reeling so much from this change from, you know, this pregnancy loss in particular is because there's no such thing as outworking a problem in the fertility space. There's no such thing as like hustle Maya stepping in and finding a way around it and figuring out, okay, here's what I'm going to do. It's just a waiting game and it's a hoping game and no amount of will in that space translates. And what I saw as being a universal response in me was a feeling of helplessness, right? A feeling of like, I don't know what to do next. And you know, it's funny. You ask me like what, like why why write a book on change? And I think it's actually because in that moment, this mantra was was ringing in my head that I see all over Instagram and social media. It's well, you can't change what happens to you. You can't change your reaction to what happens. And it is based in ancient wisdom and it's quite profound. But in that moment, Becky, when I was so devastated and felt so out of control, it really registered as a platitude. I was like, I don't actually know how to think or feel differently about my change. It's not like there's a switch in my brain. I can just flip and suddenly I'm going to feel better or feel a, you know, new perspective or what have you. And so my book is actually a response to the need that I had in that moment. Which was someone give me a manual. Someone tell me what are the right questions to ask? What are the tools and techniques that I can have at my disposal in those moments to help me renew my relationship with the change that I'm going through? So first of all, thank you for sharing all that second. I always felt honored to be letting you know, to this journey. And I'm so sorry for that loss. And the other thing, Maya, there's two things that I want to say. Number one is, you like me. We write about what's hard for us and we write about what we fear. Everyone's like, Maya's an expert in change. I'm like, no, she's not. Like I know her. No offense. Like, you know, Becky's an expert in parenting. No, she's not. Well, like, let's just, I don't even know what, I don't, you know, like, why do I write about sitting with feelings instead of, you know, as how important it is to sit with feelings instead of fixed feelings, not because I'm expert at that because that's very hard for me. I write about what I fear, right? And I think it's actually interesting as you were talking as, as that is a coping mechanism actually, which I think there's, by the way, worst coping mechanisms for the things you fear them writing and thinking about them. But you and I are very similar. And then the other thing that came to mind, and I don't have ever shared this with you, that I have this equation that I use to think about what anxiety is. And I love thinking about anything in an equation, not because I'm good at math. My equations are always x plus y. So I'll keep it simple. But because it makes it very real and then you can understand how you can change factors. Okay, so anxiety equals uncertainty plus the under estimation of our ability to cope. And what you were saying about your fertility, and what I always tell parents about anxiety, by the way, some amount of reduction in uncertainty is helpful. Like, if you're just having infertility struggles, you do need a little hustle. Go read the thing, go think about a doctor. And I think what you're saying, though, is there's always a point where the hustle stops working. And a lot of us stick with the hustle at that point. And then it almost makes us more anxious. We've overdone that side of the equation. Your kid is very, very anxious about soccer practice. Sure, before the first soccer practice on a new team, show them a picture of the field. Tell them their coach's name. But you know the loop of, well, can you tell me every kid's name and what number am I going to be? And does it start at 330, but really, 335? And at that point, you're like, well, not useful. And the other part of the equation, and again, I'm speaking about this because anyone who knows me well is like, back here, the first person who needs this advice, I know. That's why I'm saying it. Okay, so I'm with you. I'm with you haters. Okay. Is the under estimation of our ability to cope with the thing we can't hustle our way through. So I'm curious what you think about that. Oh my gosh, yes. Actually, you have just hit on the thesis of my book, which is that we can actually see change as an opportunity to reimagine who we can be rather than as something to just endure. There's a reason it's called the other side of change. It's about who we become on the other side of change. And exactly to your point, we wildly underestimate our ability to cope with what's ahead of us because we forget that we are a work in progress that we'll be changing too. So when a big change happens to us, it also leads to lasting change within us. I notice and pay attention when like my body responds, I just had the chills as you started the first part of that, which is like we change as well. We change with the thing we call change. Can you just, I don't know, let's stay in that space. Say more about this for a little bit because this was the insight that I was having writing this book, which was all these people feeling completely daunted at the outside of a change and then marveling as they reflected back at not only how they cope, but who they became. So let's set the basics here. So all of us fall prey to what's called the end of history illusion. This refers to the fact that we fully acknowledge we've changed considerably in the past. So Becky, you show me footage from me as a high schooler. I have a cringe moment. I'm like, please never do that again. You told me you were my friend, OMG. And I'm like, I don't even like, let's forge as much psychological distance between me and high school, my as possible because that is awful. Yet if you ask me, okay, but how much are you going to change in the future? I would say, no, I'm the finished product. What you see here, that's what you're going to get forever. And Dan Gilbert and his colleagues who coined this term, they say people think of the present as this watershed moment in which they finally become the person they're going to be for the rest of their lives. So it's such a funny quirk in our brains, right? That we are always believing that the person we are right now in this moment is the person who's here to stay. And what that means is actually something that's filled with hope because when we are feeling so intimidated at the outside of a change, we forget that change will accelerate that internal transformation process. The unique stressors, the new demands and stresses of being thrust into a new environment are going to reveal things to you about yourself that were previously hidden from you. And they're also going to unearth new capabilities, new potential, new perspectives, new values that you did not see possible. And so what has been so interesting to me, spending hours and hours and hours interviewing the people for my book over years was seeing firsthand, would they have willed the negative change to happen in their lives? No, right? Let's not kid ourselves. It has to be an honest portrayal of people's experiences. But were they grateful for who they became as a result of all that pressure testing and all the revelations they had about who they were that were only surfaced because of the change? Absolutely. And I will tell you, I am like, you know me, I am the biggest skeptic, right? So when I hear someone say something like, there's opportunity on the other side of change, I'm like, dude, come on. Like seriously, but I have actually, by me a different hallmark card. Yes, exactly. Let me tell you, I actually experienced this firsthand in the process of writing. I mean, the book took me like three and a half years. So I was able to sort of reflect on the wisdom of the people I was interviewing and reflect on the scientific insights. I am now a few years out from some of the hardest moments in my life, right? So that second pregnancy loss when we lost twins was so devastating for me. And I remember in that moment, thinking becoming a mom is the identity that I have wanted since the time I was four years old. It is the earliest identity I ever attached myself to. And if I cannot have that identity, my life is going to be in grayscale forever and I will never feel whole and I will never feel worthy. And I'm talking to you now on the other side as someone who has found peace as someone who is currently child free, as someone who feels more hopeful than she ever has and who is someone who is living a richer existence than she ever thought possible. And I could never ever have seen that coming given what my starting point was. 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Like if ever in your life, you experienced anything that was hard, whether it's like I fired from a job, my best friend in the world died. You know, I, whatever it is, if you're going to do anything and immediately the feeling is, this is so hard, but I won't feel like this forever. I mean, you literally wouldn't even feel that bad, right? So the reason something feels so hard is because this happens for all of us. It's the whole bubble we live in is that feeling. We can't, we feel it, we can't feel anything else and it's dark. So we don't even see what's outside. And so I think what you're saying, it is interesting because part of the reason something feels so hard is that you don't have hope for something different. And what's equally true is, it seems like people really do get to the other side and have something very different. Yeah, it's so, it's interesting to reflect on that because you're absolutely right. I, I have believed falsely so many times in my life that the way I felt then was how I was always going to feel about something. And that is part of that bias we have in our brains. I mean, we, we are bad, effective forecasters. We're terrible at predicting how we will feel about things in the future. And I think that that is a very humbling lesson. But if you apply it in the right context, it actually can fill you with quite a bit of optimism. I will tell you that the biggest insight for me in doing all of this work, and this is the combination, by the way, of like hosting a slight change of plans. And then the writing this book, you talk to people who have had such a broad range of change experiences, is that there's one thing that unites them. And it was that for every person, the reason why the change felt so uncomfortable in their bodies is because it was threatening something fundamental about who they thought they were. And I think that I can trace this back to very early in my life. So I mentioned I had, had had formative experiences with change as a kid. So long story short, I was an aspiring concert violinist. I was studying at Juilliard under It's Like Pearlman. I was like, I think I might have what it takes to go pro. And then a sudden hand injury ended my dreams overnight. And doctors told me that I would not be able to play the violin. And when I look back at 15-year-old Maya, who was navigating this, of course, I was devastated. And of course, I expected to feel devastated. But there was something so interesting about my grief, which is that I wasn't just grieving the loss of the instrument. I was also grieving the loss of myself in this more fundamental way. Like the violin had almost become an extension of my body. Like, everywhere I went, I felt like I was a violinist before I was even Maya. And so it was only when it was taken away from me that I realized just how much it had defined my identity. And it was a kind of similar experience in my quest for motherhood, right? When you when you get the news that it hasn't been successful, you realize, oh my god, I was anchoring so much of myself worth to this label or to this identity. And so what I've learned recently and I hope that this can help your listeners, people who are going through changes of all kind or who are simply trying to think differently about a past change, or are trying to get ahead of a future change because whether we like it or not, change is coming for us. It's going to hit us all is to define your identity not simply by what you do, but by why you do it. So this was like an aha moment for me. I thought, okay, rather than defining myself as having been a violinist or a writer or a podcast or a cognitive scientist, what is it about those things that really makes me light up? Like what is my motivation for doing them? And I realize that human connection is at the heart of everything that I've done. Like that is my why. I desire to have conversations like the one I'm having with you right now. That is the thing that drives me. And so just because I lost the ability to play the violin didn't mean that I lost what maybe love it in the first place, which was connecting with other people. And just because I wasn't able to achieve my dream of becoming a mother doesn't mean that I lost what made me want to become a mom in the first place, which was a desire to like care for little humans and to cuddle with them and to have these lovely moments. And now now the question becomes for me. Well, through what other outlets can I express this why? Right? So I'm getting a lot of that emotional connection that I was craving from the work that I do, podcasts, interviewing for the book. I have six nieces and nephews that I absolutely adore. I get to mentor people through my job. Like I just encourage every person to ask themselves what their why is because it's a much more stable identity to hold on to during times of change. And it can actually be a north star for you when life makes other plans and you need to figure out what comes next. This is so important. And I want to translate it like in a couple ways around parenting. So, you know, I'm thinking about a parent. Let's say who I don't know. Let's say they worked outside the home their whole life. And now they're not, you know, something like that. And what you're saying here is if that feels like a loss or that's a hard change, the job is the thing on the outside. That's the thing you do. But it lights something up for you on the inside. And maybe it literally could be a million things. Is it that you really like making your own money? Maybe. Is it that your job was in the creative field and you love the creativity? Is it that you missed the water cooler? Adult conversation about things that had nothing to do with children? Is it that you love problems and trying to think through them that don't have to do with your kids or yourself? Again, because you're saying your why can be so varied, right? And if you start to just ask yourself those questions and anyone listening, it's okay if you don't have immediate answer. Most people don't. So, that doesn't mean anything's wrong with you. It just means to continue having the question pop up and try out different things. Is it this? Is it that? Because then you can have a different inside out process. Once you've kind of looked outside at what you miss and brought it in, once you know what it is on the inside, you say, okay, so for whatever reason working outside the home isn't the thing for me, what's another way I might be able to get this need met? And you know what? Maybe your first version felt like a 10 out of 10 and this new way you can meet that need feels like a 9 out of 10 or even a 5 out of 10. Sometimes a 5 out of 10 is the best we get at different parts of our life for certain needs. And then it's a whole lot better than a 0 at. It's a whole lot better than a 0 out of 10, right? I love that application and it's reminding me of a conversation that I had. My the book team that I had at Penguin Random House, this woman Michelle, she had read my book and she was telling me how her mom was battling a really serious illness and she was grieving the fact that she couldn't make meals for her daughter anymore, my friend Michelle. And this was absolutely heartbreaking for her. She just didn't have the physical abilities to cook those meals. And Michelle had just read this passage of the book and she went to her mom and she said, Mom, what was your why? What were you getting from cooking these meals for me? She said, Michelle, I just love taking care of you and given that you're an adult now, there are so few moments, so few opportunities for me to play that role in your life. It was just a way for me to express my love for you. And Michelle goes, OK, now we know the why. Let us brainstorm other ways that you are going to be able to show your love for me that are within your physical, your current physical capabilities. And it was such a beautiful illustration of how we can all use this in our lives, because things are constantly going to change. And when we anchor our identity too firmly to something that can be quite precarious, it can leave us feeling totally unmoored on the other side. And on that same note, actually, I think it's also very important to make sure that we are remembering that each of us carry within ourselves rich and multifaceted identities. So one thing I found is that I'm sure you and I are very similar in this way. When we put our mind to something, we become single, mindedly focused on achieving that goal. So I entered the become a mom zone. And it was like I was wearing blinders back. Everything became about that. Every conversation I was having with my husband was about this topic for years and years and years. And what happened as a result of those blinders is that I lost perspective on my life. So if I can just share a personal story with you, I remember on the night of the second miscarriage, my husband came in and goes, Maya, that's his nickname for me, Maya. Let's do a gratitude exercise. Like let's just say the things we're grateful for. And I was like, dude, no, I was not having it. Okay, I was like, you take your positivity nonsense, you go over there, I'm not doing this. Okay, I'm staying under the covers and I'm going to Sulk and feel miserable. So I looked at him and I was like, no, and then finally he did wear me down. And I was like, okay, fine, I'll start this. So I start rattling a couple things off. I'm like, well, I'm so grateful that, you know, I've had the same colleagues for over 10 years and we have so much fun together working. And I love my Zoom workouts with my trainer. And I love hosting a slight change of plans. I get to meet all these super cool people that I wouldn't have met otherwise. And I swear to God, something magical happened as I was reciting this list, which was I suddenly zoomed out and saw my life as a whole and realized that there were all these other rich identities that I found so much meaning in and I so valued that I completely lost sight of. And there's research. And so my husband who's a software engineer did not realize he was engaging me in this thing called a self-affirmation exercise. But you basically just take five minutes and you jot down every identity that matters to you, but importantly ones that are not threatened by the change that you're going through. So for example, if you're going through a tough spot in your relationship or you're having a really hard time as a parent, you might affirm your spiritual life or the fact that you really love the community of women who go to your yoga class with you or you really value the productivity you feel at work. And it's just a way of reminding yourself that your whole being is not being threatened by the change. Like you are still very much intact and you are still whole. First of all, that's so beautiful. And you're really, you know, I always love when I'm talking to someone and I think we just have like slightly different language for very similar ideas. You're talking about the idea that like we have multiple parts and all of our parts matter and the only time we really get into a bad place is kind of when one of the parts and they all kind of live in the backseat of our car takes over the driver seat. And I think we all think the answer for like the hard painful parts is we want to like kick them out of the car and we take a we use a lot of energy trying to do that. But the unfortunate truth or actually the fortunate truth because they all play a part is that they're never going to leave the car. But but it's the taking over the driver seat that really makes us lose control. And when you do at a red light turn your head around and you're like, oh, oh, there's my yoga thing. That's my religious life. Like you do forget and just knowing they're there. And I just want to tell people like you're going through a change and sometimes we can't hear the other voices. You're like, I don't know what I'm grateful for. But even just being able to say like, but I know you're in there. Like I know you're in there. Like I think back to when we were a kid, I don't know why this image like you're in a closet, you don't feel like it's safe to come out and how different it feels if nobody comes into your room versus if someone comes in and just says like, I know you're there and like, I'll wait till you want to speak. It doesn't mean you're going to speak, but someone just knowing that you're there and putting that out there is completely different than silence. Right. And sometimes when we feel overwhelmed by a change or we all get overwhelmed by like, this is my whole truth and this is a helpless situation and I'm never going to change. And I listen to that podcast, but Maya doesn't know my story and I'm not going to have a future self. Like there are moments like that. And if you can't hear the capable part or the maybe there's other parts of me part to even like visualize that they are in the car or maybe they're in that closet or even name like, I can't hear your voice right now, but that doesn't mean you're not real. Can can can also be that tiny shift. Yeah, I completely agree. And I thought a lot about kind of what I could credibly promise someone reading my book. And it's not necessarily happiness because everyone will have their own timeline and everyone's going to be facing a different situation. And some changes are so harrowing and might take years to recover from, but what I can promise people is a set of approaches that will give them the hope that there is another way. And like you said, they might not know what that other way is to be or to think or to feel, but there is another way. And my goal is to make them very curious about what those other ways might be so that they're empowered with the right questions and the right tools. And as you know, this is exactly what I feel like we do for parents, right? Like you feel like, no, my kids' tantrums are so much worse. My kid is a sociopath. My kid will never have friends. My kid is so strong-willed and right. And the truth is the worst part of that situation is your kind of conviction that this is the whole truth and the forever truth. And I think that's the first thing we give parents, too, is like hope and a little bit of vision that maybe there maybe there is something else, right? And I don't have ever said this to you, but I think the essence of dealing with anxiety and maybe change is this duality of like, I believe you and I believe in you. Like I believe you that the heart is really that hard and the awful is that awful and yes, like yes to all. But if I have one foot in the difficulty of this moment, and even if you have two feet in it, like I will always have my other foot in the like I believe in you and I don't even know what it's going to look like, but it's going to be something a little better than this. And sometimes different just feels better, too, because it's so it's so maddening to be stuck in a certain state of mind, right? Especially and I know that this comes, I mean, I'm an avid listener of good inside. You talk a lot about shame, right? And blame. And I think one way in which parents get stuck is they're not just feeling, oh, I'm going to feel this way forever. They're also blaming themselves. And they're not recognizing that self-compassion is actually the solution in those situations. And there are stories that I dive into in the book where because we it's so interesting, the logic makes sense that it's sets us up for failure. It's like, well, if we can take credit for the good stuff in our lives, we also feel like we should probably take responsibility for the bad stuff. The truth is actually somewhere in the middle, which is like, we can only take a little bit of credit for the good stuff. We should only take a little bit of credit for the bad stuff. But it's just that it's harkens back to an earlier conversation, which is we have this strong intern, what's called an internal locus of control, where we believe that we are the ones that are driving this input output model that is life, rather than having an external locus of control, where we believe that all these external factors are actually influencing how things turn out. And so when things don't go our way or our kid is a certain way and not another way, it's it's all too easy to place the blame on ourselves and to immediately say, okay, well, that this must be a sign that I'm a bad parent. When, of course, the reality is so, so, so much more complex. And you're not actually tapping into the best version of yourself when you engage in that kind of self reflection. My, this has been so powerful. It's left me with so many thoughts too. I want to kind of end by giving you a little bit of a rapid fire, complete the sentence around change. So take a deep breath. I try to be patient if you need it. I know. Me neither, but we can do hard things. This is you are accessing your picky self right now. You are welcome. Okay. Change is hardest when you think it's your fault. Change feels more manageable when you're in community. The biggest change I didn't see coming was a child-free life. When I'm in the middle of change, I try to remind myself some things are still constant. A small change that's made a big difference in my life is my morning ritual of a hot cup of Indian style tea. Cardamom fresh ginger. It's delicious. I mean, that feels actionable for me pretty soon. So, thank you. Okay, last one. For the parent listening who's struggling in a hard stage with their kid and they feel desperate for a change, what you want to tell them is your kid will change and you will change as a parent. So beautiful. Thank you, Maya. This has been incredible and I know people have gotten so much in this conversation and will get so much from your book. The other side of change who we become when life makes other plans. Thanks so much, Becky. So fun to be here. I got so much from that episode, but I want to tell you the two things that are allowed as to my head. Number one, when we go through a change, we often forget we will change alongside that moment. That is so helpful to bring out our inner resilience. Number two, when you're mourning something, when you've lost something in a change, think about what it is on the outside, but then think about what that thing gave you on the inside because there might be another avenue to get those feelings or that need met. Let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. And place a hand on your heart. And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.