Listen Again: Julia Gets Wise with Ruth Reichl

Okay, let's say you buy some apples at the store. You're only going to have a rough idea of where or how they're grown. Maybe you throw the cores in a trash can. You're not thinking about where they're going or you try not to. All in all, our relationship to our food can feel disconnected. One way I try to reconnect is by using my mill food recycler. Sure, mill has totally changed my home life in a lot of practical ways. It works automatically. You can fill it for weeks. It never smells. But this part is just as important. When I use mill, I'm participating in a circular system. All the food I don't eat is helping to grow the food that I do. It makes me feel like I'm part of something bigger. And that feels really, really good. And it's all so ridiculously easy. I just drop my scraps in my mill and it transforms them into nutrient-rich grounds overnight. I have mine sent to a small farm, but if I wanted to, I could use them in my garden or for my backyard chickens. If I wanted backyard chickens, and I don't. And well, I don't know. Maybe I do now. Maybe mill is transforming me, too, just a little. If you want to feel more connected or you just want your kitchen to feel less gross, try mills, risk-free trial, and just live with it for a while. Go to mill.com slash wiser for an exclusive offer. Hey, it's me, Julia Louis-Dryfus. We are officially back with a brand new season of Wiser than me. To celebrate your out of this world support for our show, we've been brewing up something special. A Wiser than me, mere traveler. It's a versatile, sustainable travel mug to keep your coffee hot and your tea cozy all year round. It's perfect for wise women on the go. Head over to Wiser than me shop.com to grab yours now. Okay, here's the show. Hey, everyone, Julia here. Since it's Thanksgiving, I thought it would be the perfect time to revisit one of my favorite conversations from season one with the amazing Ruth Ryshel. She's a food writer, magazine editor, author, and an all-around culinary icon. Ruth and I have a warm and funny conversation about the way food shows up in moments of joy and grief and how doing things that scare you can sometimes lead to the most meaningful parts of life. And as a special treat, we're sharing a bonus clip at the end of this episode, something that only Lemonada premium listeners have heard before. Whether you're cooking, traveling, or just taking a break today, I hope this feels like sitting down at a really great table. Thanks for being here and we'll be back next week with a brand new episode. When I was about 28, I got pregnant for the first time and I was crazy happy. I got pregnant easily. I felt very fertile, very womanly. And then, quite late in the pregnancy, my husband Brad and I discovered that this little fetus was not going to live. So that was emotionally devastating, as you can imagine, but it got worse because I developed an infection that landed me in the hospital. And I mean, this whole thing was just a complete nightmare. Of course, my mom flew out to be with me and before she left, she told her best friend, Ellie, that she was coming out to be with me. And naturally, the first thing that Ellie said to her was, so what are you going to cook? After a couple of days, I finally got out of the hospital and I came home to recuperate, but I wasn't allowed to get up out of bed yet. I was, as they say, bedridden. But my mom cooked. She made this incredible cozy chili in a cast iron skillet with cornbread on top in the pan. And she and my husband Brad set up a little card table at the foot of the bed and the smell of that cornbread and the chili was so wonderful. It just filled the room and the whole house and my heart really. Because here's the thing, I couldn't eat. I wasn't yet allowed to have solid food, but it didn't matter. It was the best meal ever. And I didn't even eat it. The making of it was so comforting. It was so embracing. Food is central to the traditions of my family. I would think that to most families, that's the case. I relate food, especially to my mom. She's a great cook. This is one of my greatest memories around food, even though it has sort of an odd kicker, really. Like my sweet niece, Fiya says before a meal, we'd like to give thanks to everyone who had a hand in bringing this nutritious, delicious food to our table. Isn't that a lovely prayer? I am so thankful to have food. God knows plenty of people don't. And I'm also so thankful that today I'm talking with food writer Ruth Ryshel. Hi, I'm Julie Yalui-Dryfus and this is Wiser than me, a show where I get schooled by women who are Wiser than me. Oh, man, are we in for a tasty treat today? I am talking to Ruth Ryshel who does so much that's impossible to describe her as any one thing. She is an actual fucking polymath. A celebrated chef, a restaurant tour, an early mover and shaker, and what I guess you'd call the farm to table kind of food movement. She can correct me on that when we get going. She reinvented the role of food critic at the LA Times and the New York Times. And as editor, she reinvented Gourmet magazine, which is where I first fell in love with her deeply in love with her. I was obsessed with Gourmet. That's where she published actual food literature by people like David Foster Wallace, which is no surprise because she's also a fanciest writer herself, writing nearly a dozen books, amazing cookbooks, revelatory memoirs like Tender at the Bone, and a novel. She's won seven James Beard Awards, which is like the Oscars for Food. And she's earned a reputation as a totally subversive, democratizing force, an activist in the world of food. She's also a daughter, a wife, and a mother, and she's obviously wiser than me, holy shit, rude. The idea of being wise just at it. It's daunting. It is daunting. So pretend we're just having a conversation. So first of all, are you comfortable saying your age? Yes. You can't think of yourself as young anymore when you're 75. And that's a very strange idea to me because I don't feel like an old person. Yeah, you don't look like one either if you don't mind my saying. Well, thank you. My biggest problem with getting older is, you know, there were things that you think of like when my cats die, will I get more cats because they would outlive me? It's funny. I've had the same thought about my dog George because I figure he'll live like 14 years. And then I'll be into my 70s or I'll be 75. Let's say he kicks it then. Do we get another animal? Yeah. So you think about things like that. I mean, you actually think will I be around when X happens? Right. I mean, that's the big thing I mind because I hate the idea of not being here. You know, I never want to miss a party. You know, I'm having so much fun in this life. I just I'm not ready to give it up. Yeah, I hear that. There's a lot of joy to be had. I mean, it's funny because not I don't want to get more bid, but you know, I breast cancer a few years back. And when I got the diagnosis, which was so fucking terrifying, but one of my first thoughts was, I don't want to go. I don't want to leave. I do not want to leave. And it was sort of what you're talking about. I want to I'm I'm not ready for an exit in any sense. You know, exactly. But you've survived it, right? Oh, yes. Yes, I am. Touchwood. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I'm five years out. Now, so that's a good thing. First of all, the way you write about food and your food memories. I was talking about this with my husband, Brad, whom you know, and he was saying that it reminded him of writing about music. What is your process to write about food in such a way so that people feel it, taste it, experience it? What is that process for you? If you can break it down, I don't know if you can. Well, I can try. I mean, and in many ways, food is my music. You know, I mean, the kind of pleasure that other people get out of music, I get out of food. And it just gives me endless joy. And I have always wanted other people to understand that here is this simple pleasure. You know, it's it's there. It's available to all of us. Yeah. All of the time. Right. And I really believe that it's important to be open to the little pleasures of life. I mean, I think that's probably the secret to living is to be aware when you taste a strawberry that, you know, it's a moment of grace that you're in the world. I mean, or if you're out walking in the rain and just that feel, I mean, all of those things are a way that we can experience joy. And and I grew up in an America that didn't care about food, didn't appreciate food. You know, American food was a joke in the fifties. And you know, I lived in New York and I was surrounded by all this really wonderful food. And I kept sort of like wanting to say to people, here, here it is. Just eat it. So I spent a lot of time thinking about how do you describe the intangible. And you know, the more you think about it, the more you understand that I have no idea if you taste what I taste. Right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a personal, you know, it's going on in your mouth. Yeah. And who knows if anybody else in the whole world tastes what you taste. So I always tried to write about food in ways that transcended flavor. I mean, saying that something tastes like lemon isn't very useful if you hate lemon or lemon doesn't taste. I mean, I love lemon. But if lemon doesn't taste the same way to you as it does to me, how is that useful? But if you say when I have fresh lemonade, it feels to me like walking in the rain beneath the lilac bush, or it's as good as that shower you take when you come in from a run. And then you're sort of telling people what the experience of it is rather than the flavor. Right. I spent a lot of time trying to think about how would I describe this flavor in a way that would make sense to someone who had who basically didn't wasn't able to taste. So you're sort of connecting it to experience and to memory. And you're getting in the inside of it in a way in that sense. Yes. And you're trying to take experiences that we all know. What is it like on the first day that it snows and you go outside and you haven't seen snow for a year? Yeah. Yeah. What is it like to catch a snowflake on your tongue? That's a useful way of describing eating a souffle, you know, the way it adjusts evaporates. Right. Oh, you're so right. That's amazing. Have your taste buds changed as you've gotten older? Probably, but I'm not aware of it. Really? It's like being the frog in the pot of flowing water. It happens so gradually that you haven't noticed it got hot. But like when you were younger, were there foods that you loved or hated that you feel differently about now? Or is it sort of remain? Well, I, you know, I've only really ever hated one food. And the truth is that I don't hate it as much as I used to. Ah, I have always loathed honey. What in the living fuck are you talking about? I can't stand honey. I just hate it. Really? It makes it, it's like, it makes my whole body quiver. I just can't stand that taste. But I can tolerate it now. And I, you know, when I was a kid, I really couldn't. I used to hate honey when I was little, but as I've gotten older, I've grown to like it a lot. Incomprehensible to me that someone could like honey. I know most people do. God, I mean, like if you could describe honey, your experience with honey, how would you describe it? I would describe it as like leaping into a mud puddle which turns out to be deeper than you thought it was. Oh, the bees now hate you. No, they're happy because I'm not stealing their honey. Yeah, it's true. They don't want you to steal their honey. No, they don't. They like me a lot. Yeah. That's amazing. God. So what's the best, since we're dancing around the ideas of experience and wisdom and someone, what's the best advice you've ever gotten? Well, let me see. When I was, I had been a freelance writer. I was living in Berkeley in a commune. And I was asked to become the restaurant critic of the LA Times. Right. And I was very reluctant to move to Los Angeles to take a job. I mean, it was 35 and I'd never had a real job. I'd always been freelance. I had become very good friends with MFK Fisher. And I told her that I had gotten this job offer and I was going to turn it down. And she said, you take that job. You are polishing every word you write as if it were a gem. And you need the experience of going to a newspaper where an editor says to you, I need 15 inches and I need it in an hour. And you do it. And it's not the best thing you ever wrote. But it's good enough. And tomorrow it's going to be lining someone's bird cage. And you just need, you need that experience. You need to learn to write fast and to not have it be perfect. Not to be precious about it. Yes. And I took the job. And I think it was a piece of advice that transcended, you know, take that job. It was about perfection in some ways. I think. You know, as an editor, I have known so many writers who can't turn the work in because it's not perfect yet. And you can waste your whole life looking for perfection because nothing will ever be perfect. No book is ever really finished. You know, you could keep making those sentences better. So I mean, the advice that she gave me essentially was, don't ever think that perfection is your goal because it's not. It can't be. There's more with Ruth Ryshall in just a few moments. Hey, prime members. Did you know you can listen to Wiser than me ad free on Amazon music? Download the Amazon music app today to start listening ad free. If you're like the wise women on this podcast, you're really, really busy. That's why my idea makes appliances that handle things while you move on with your life, like the one touch auto-filled French door fridge with a water dispenser that fills your cup perfectly. So you don't have to sit there and supervise water. Every idea appliances made for people who already do a lot. And especially for those who notice when things aren't working and quietly fix them anyway. You've learned to handle it all, but sometimes even the best multitasking can't cover for things that don't work. That's why my idea appliances are dependable, efficient, no-guess work appliances that do their part. They let you focus on the things only you can do without adding to the mental load. 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Shop K-18 mask at Sephora or get 10% off your first order at K-18hair.com with code Wiser. That's K-18hair.com and use the code Wiser. So complicated women, so your mother was a very complicated person. Oh my god. Yes, yes. She really was. She was bipolar. As one of her strengths said to me, about the worst bipolar case he had ever encountered. She was really, the highs were really high, where she didn't sleep for weeks, and the lows were, she would go to bed for six months and read the same book over and over and over again for six months. But if you have a really crazy parent, one of two things happens, they either destroy you or they make you strong. I literally still, I wake up every morning, grateful that I'm not my mother. And I'm very aware of my good fortune in being sane. That's a piece of great good fortune. And if you recognize your fortune early in your life, and I knew it from the time that I was about eight or nine, that my mother was deeply unhappy. And I wasn't. There's a real measure of happiness. I mean, I feel like I am basically a happy person and that happiness comes from knowing that I don't have the same burdens that my mother did. Was your dad a happy man? He wasn't unhappy. Uh-huh. My dad was a sort of classic European intellectual. And I don't think happiness even figured into his idea of what life is. I didn't and don't have parents with as bad a mental health issue as your mother, but my father, who's since passed, is, oh, God, he was a true narcissist in the clinical sense. So I can understand what you're talking about, sort of recognizing it. And I've spent a lot of time in my own life trying to somehow fix that with him. But there was something nice when I realized that's him and that's not me. And away from that is where I live, you know, separate. Yes, yes. And that's a very big step. And I think there was a point in my life where my mother was inside my head. And I can't even tell you, I wish if I knew how I exercised her, you know, I could change the world. I don't know how it happened, but there was a point when suddenly she just didn't have that power over me anymore. And I was an adult at the time that that happened where she and I were just truly separate. So does that mean you didn't talk to her as you got older? No, no, not at all. It just meant that when I did talk to her, she didn't have that power over me anymore. I mean, my first husband and I moved back to New York, yeah, after college. And my parents were so in our lot. Me, my mother was so in our life that we finally just realized we had to leave. I knew I couldn't live in the same city as she did. But my feeling, my sense when I would go home, I would go home to New York. And as I was knocking on the door, I would have this feeling that when the door opened, I would turn back into a year old little Ruthie again. You know, and that I would be right back where I was. And it's why I had to keep her out of my life. Right. And then there was a time when I could open that door and walk in as me and stay you and stay me and be the competent grown-up person that I was. And when did your mom pass? I was in my mid-40s when she passed. And then your dad after that? Oh, no, he died earlier. Oh, he died earlier. Were you in charge of taking care of her? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When I was at the LA Times, my mother would call me like 12 times a day. Okay. And she would say things like, there's no food in the house. You have to come to New York and go buy me food. And I'd say, mom, the Jefferson market delivers, call them up. So was she was battling her mental health illness even to the very end, right? Or was she a little more stable? No, she had a period of stability and I could tell you how that ended, but it's so tragic. I won't. But she did have a few wonderful years. Oh, that's nice. As an old person, really wonderful years, where she was, you know, where we would all like to be, which is like halfway into the first martini. She was just a little bit high. Uh-huh. And she could stay there. She stayed right there. Oh, wow. Since I've been somebody who's been on the receiving end of criticism, negative and positive, how did you reconcile your power as a critic? How did how do you come to terms with that yourself? I kept a photograph of a young couple on my bulletin board, which I, you know, looked at it every day when I was writing reviews. And I imagined that they were people who didn't have very much money and they saved up all year to go out for one great meal on their anniversary. And I imagine every time I was tempted to hedge my bets and say something nicer than I really felt a better restaurant, I would look at them and think, they're going to go there because you said that. And they kept me honest. So you felt an obligation to the consumers out there? I did. I mean, I felt like, you know, that's who I'm writing for. That's who's paying me. And, you know, I'm sorry if, you know, my reviews hurt people. On the other hand, you know, most restaurants want to be reviewed. And I have to tell the truth. And if I can't do that, I shouldn't be doing this job. Those reviews really, they have an impact. Oh, yeah. And, you know, I mean, it's unfortunate because people love bad reviews. I mean, people really, the consumers love to read those, you know, these are really nasty reviews. And it's easier to write nasty reviews than it is good ones. You know, I mean, you can be very funny writing mean reviews. But, you know, the real obligation is to the consumer. And the other obligation is to the people who are really talented and who run restaurants and work really hard. And it's not fair to them if you're saying that someone who's only doing a mediocre job is better than they really are. Right. You know, I'm glad I don't have to do it anymore. I'm really glad. That's a lot of, that's a different hat, isn't it? It's a different hat. And it's, I don't think a particularly fun one. And I should say that, you know, when I started writing reviews, it was a very different time. You know, I mean, chefs didn't have PR people. Yeah, they weren't celebrities for the most part. They weren't celebrities. And it was, it was a much easier time. And then, I sort of halfway through my career, that old shifted. And then I started wearing the disguises. And, you know, I mean, when I got to New York, I really was the enemy. I mean, did you wear a wig? I wore many wigs. Oh my god. I did you take pictures of yourself? There are a few pictures. I mean, mostly I didn't because I didn't want them floating around out there. Yeah. The best disguise I ever had was as my mother. Yeah. Because I had her clothes. And I had all her jewelry. And I got this, my mother had short gray hair. Yeah. And I got this short gray wig. And I took a picture and sent it to my brother. And I had never thought I looked like my mother. But Bob's response was, I've never seen that picture of mom before. No, really. Yeah. And I really looked like her. And then I behaved like her and it was weird. Really? It was very, I mean, my mother was, I mean, like I am a person who in my real life, I have never sent anything back in my life. I mean, I just don't do that. Wait a minute. You mean you don't send food back if it comes and there's like, I don't. Lots of hair and things. I've never gotten lots of hair. Well, I'm trying to think of the worst case scenario, you know, or bugs or something. You just won't. I don't know. I, you know, I am not a squeaky will in real life. I'm just not. My mother, on the other hand, sent everything back. The drink wasn't cold enough. The soup wasn't hot enough. Whatever it was, it went back. And you were dying. And I was dying. My father and I were both dying while mom were sending this stuff back. And so there I was being my mother and, you know, empiriously sending everything back was kind of fun. You're very direct though, Ruth. You may not be a squeaky will, but what impresses me about you is how direct you are. I know. It's odd. I mean, I don't think of myself as direct, but I know I am. No, you are. I am. Yeah. In a way I like very much. I am not a complainer. I say, I'm just, you know, if someone says to me, how was it? I will say, not really wasn't very good. Yeah. There was a lot of hair and bugs in it. There were bugs. What about this big piece of glass? I had to go to the ER afterwards. Oh, God. In your business, I mean, you've worked in a world where people can be incredibly misbehaved and entitled. How have you managed to navigate these douchebags? And by the way, I work in a world that's similar to that too. I'm wondering, how do you think you've done that? I don't know. You know, me being a condon asked was really something because you want to talk about entitled people. Oh, my God. I mean, the stories that the drivers would tell you about, you know, what happened in their cars, when people did to their cars. Really? I think I was part of the only editor at Condon asked who took the subway. And I once had the great joy of making my publisher come on the subway with me. Oh, Si, new house. That's Si, no, no. His nephew's wife was my first publisher. We were somewhere and there was like traffic and I said, oh, come on, let's just take the subway. You know, and she was like, oh, my God, you expect me to take the subway? And you made her do it. I made her do it. I said, you know, okay, you know, we can take this. I wait. It'll take 10 minutes or we can like wait for your stupid car to come and it'll be an hour. Right. I don't want to waste an hour. So she very reluctantly came down into the subway with me. But they were just to be a real objectless. I mean, because when I got to Condon asked, one, I thought, this is not the rest of my life. At some point, I'm going to get fired as every everybody at Condon asked gets fired eventually. And so I better not get used to being a princess fancy. I'm not going to be a princess my whole life. So why, why do it now? Why even get used to it? Uh-huh. And so I was very aware of the fact that this was not real life. It was not my life. I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to be that person. I didn't want to be any of those people. They made me sick. They really did. So that's how you navigated them. Yeah. You paid no attention to them. Yeah. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. I like that. You know, I mean, one of my favorite moments that Gourmet was I sent two of my people off to do a story about this halal butcher where you chose your own goat. And then they blessed the goat and killed it in front of you. And they come back to the magazine and carrying this warm goat in a big plastic bag. And they run into the office. And there's an elevator door that's just closing and they rush in with this bag of freaking goat and and a winter is in there. I was just going to say, please tell me and a winter was in there. And they said she was just so horrified. She backed into the corner. You know, nobody was supposed to even get in the elevator with her. If she was in the elevator, you were supposed to wait for the next one. That's hilarious. But nobody said anything about a goat carcass coming in the elevator. Exactly. They said other people, but not a goat carcass. That is a great story. I love that. God damn it. I wish we had a like my dad used to say, I wish he had an oil painting of that moment. Oh shit. We'll get more wisdom from Ruth Ryshell after this super quick break. Stay tuned. Spring invites a reset. Windows open, shelves cleared. Only what's useful and well made, captain rotation. Closets can follow the same rule. Fewer pieces, better pieces, nothing wasteful. 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Good thing you can try it risk free for 90 days right now and get 75 dollars off with code hmdk visit mill.com slash hmdk that is mill.com slash hmdk. You wrote that piece for I think it was for a lure about your body and being heavy as a kid and or you called yourself fat and that getting fat took up a lot of energy in your life. How do you push past that voice in your head to seize the opportunities of being a food critic or whatever. How did you relax? Have you been able to relax about your body and the idea of gaining or losing weight or is that still very present in your life? I would say a little bit of both. You know I did have this remarkable experience of meeting a man who I then married who like likes big women and so for the first time in my life that little voice that said don't eat that, don't eat that and that little voice it seems to me makes you just eat more. You know the more you look at something and think I shouldn't eat that. Yes we started living together and that voice went away and my experience of this I don't know if it's true but my experience of it was that I woke up one morning and I had lost 35 pounds and it was just because I had stopped obsessing about it. The relationship between food and women in particular is so fraught and in a way that is completely unjust and I certainly battled my weight when I was younger and I always felt sort of like this dumpy person as a youth I felt kind of you know once I became a teenager and I was uncomfortable with weight and I and I over ate I was an overeater to a certain extent but as I've gotten older and maybe there's something about having kids too I don't know the relationship that I had had with food has changed dramatically in a way that I'm relieved by you know I'm really relieved. Yeah I mean the thing about weight is it's also about are you pretty? I know. Which is so important when you're young and you know I just kept hearing over and over again you just you'd be so pretty if you just lose some weight. Right and my mother you know got me to smoke when I was 12 because you know if you smoke you won't eat. Oh Lord Jesus. You know for me the big lesson was don't say no and you know if if I feel like I can always eat anything that the no isn't there then I don't have a problem. Oh my God do I agree with that. That's why in this very drawer of the death that I'm talking to you on I it's my chocolate drawer I love chocolate and I have a piece of chocolate every single day and that's a game changer. Exactly. Let's talk about that transition for you becoming the editor at Gourmet you had never edited a magazine before and I've pretty I don't know what can we say it was at the time Tony. And it was a Bible it was like yeah it was like the American food Bible. How did you make that kind of leap because I think you were a little fearful of it yeah. No I was very fearful of it I mean because I didn't think I knew how to do it. How I made the leap was two ways one was an older woman a friend of mine and I said you know Paul I would love to do this but I'm not quite ready yet you know maybe in a year or so it would be the right job and Paula said Ruth it's never the right time you have to take the opportunities when they come along if you don't take it it won't come again so just do it. The other piece of it was and this is probably the best advice I have to give anyone. Oh goody. It's the things that frighten you that are the things that you have to do. Oh God. When something really scares you you know you have to do it and you know it's like every every scary thing I mean running the David Foster Wallace piece was terrifying which was why I knew that there was no way I could walk away from it. The first major review the review I'm known for which is the one of Les Serc where I wrote it in two takes one as myself and one as a person in disguise. I thought I was going to get fired for writing that piece. I mean I didn't sleep for two nights before that piece was printed. Really? I was so frightened that I was convinced that I hadn't ever been to the restaurant. I mean I made myself so crazy that I thought I had made the whole thing up. But wait a minute for those who are listening can you describe you so it was two different pieces that real time. No it was one piece but I said Les Serc is two different restaurants depending on who you are. So I went many times in disguise and they treated me like dirt and then the last time that I went I didn't go into I didn't make the reservation my own name but I didn't go into disguise and I knew he had a picture of me and sure enough the owner sees me and I went with my nephew who was working on Wall Street and I got him to make the reservation and he said well I could only get a nine thirty and I said okay let's go at eight and see what happens and we walk in at eight and there's a huge group of people waiting for a table and the owner Syriot sees me and he parts them like the Red Sea takes my hand pulls me forward and says the king of Spain is waiting in the bar but your table is ready. Oh my god. Oh my god. And I said to my nephew oh yeah the king was Spain is waiting in the bar and he turns around and he goes he is waiting in the bar. I saw him on TV last night. Oh my god I can't get over this okay and so then he says you know can we make you a menu and there's you know white truffles and black truffles and champagne and you know they give us a table for four for the two of us and so I write this is what happens if you're the restaurant critic of the New York Times but if you're just an ordinary person going there don't think they're going to be very nice to you because they aren't. You're looking at that picture of the couple. Yeah exactly. Yeah so go ahead so nobody had ever done anything like that. And nobody at the New York Times had ever done anything like that and I knew that my editors were really nervous and I wasn't quite sure why they were so nervous but I could feel it and I knew that it had gone all the way up that the editor in chief had read that and he didn't read the restaurant they had vetted it with him and the next day I found out that it was the publisher a Punch Soulsburgers favorite restaurant and that they really were terrified. My editor later called me and I wish I was so nervous I couldn't even pick up my messages the next day I waited until like four o'clock in the afternoon to actually listen to my messages because I knew yeah I didn't go into the office I was just and the first message of the day was for my editor who said well everything is fine because the first phone call that Punch got this morning was from Walter Annemburg a very big deal Walter Annemburg you said who called Punch and said that's the best review the Times has ever run because apparently he had once gone there and not been recognized and been treated not dark so what did this experience teach you? Well again when something frightens you you have to do it it's worth doing and you know that you always have to push the envelope that it's really important to have new experiences and the other part of that is and this is the other big piece of advice I have to give people is the only thing that really keeps you young is constantly doing things you don't know how to do if you spend your whole life doing things you already know how to do you get old fast. The one thing that I've realized to you know doing this crazy ass podcast talking to older women is the subject of endings that subject comes up a lot in conversation and how do you deal with endings in your life you know be it jobs which I know you've had multiple endings on and marriage and losing people that are close to you I mean I think I know the answer to this but I'd be curious to hear your take on it how have you gotten through big shifting endings if you have. Well you know I go into the kitchen you know I mean that's that's sort of where when I'm really in a bad place I just start cooking and it focuses me it's a meditation it's a meditation and you know it reminds me that I'm lucky to still be alive and I think the only way to honor the memory of the people you love is to just live your life to the fullest. You know and going into the kitchen sort of reminds me of that it's like being around all the aromas and you know the wonderful tactile sense and slicing and um it sort of brings me back to into the world. Mm-hmm. Can I ask you a really selfish question because when I was reading your my kitchen year you know your recipe for pound cake. Uh-huh. So I'm gonna make that one as soon as I get home but I was thinking I might add orange to it. Oh yes you like that. I do I love that. And so would you add like a tablespoon of orange zest I was thinking maybe like a tablespoon of orange zest and maybe half a cup of orange juice because we have orange trees so I could use our oranges. Well I would certainly add you know the zest of one large orange. I'm not I have to look at that recipe because I'm not sure what orange juice would do to it. The acid may change the balance. Uh-huh. I would start by just using zest. Okay and not not juice. Okay I'm pulling out the book for those who are listening because and I have to make those eggs in the potato of Jesus. I you're making me hungry woman. Oh this is so much fun I can't tell you how much fun I'm having talking to you. And I'm gonna be in L.A. for three months this year so. Oh yeah so speaking of which so I was hoping maybe I could get you guys to come up to Santa Barbara you could come up and sure I was about to say I'll cook for you but maybe we'll cook together. Yeah you want to? Sure I would love to. I would love to. Okay great. All right now I'm already freaking out thinking about what we're gonna have. Don't freak out. Hey can I ask you something do you remember when we were at we were at our mutual friends house having dinner and I brought a key lime pie. Did you hate it? No I love key lime pie. It was a great key lime pie. Why would I hate it? I don't know. I was worried. I wasn't sure. I am not a big sweets person. That may be it. So I don't I mean I never eat a lot of sweet things although I have to say I've pretty much devoured your really wonderful Marmalade. Oh well guess what you are getting so much more of it. It is so delicious. We can make it when you come if we've got oranges and season that would be fun to do too. That would be great but can I just I am not a chef. I mean I'm not a train chef. I've just a person who likes to cook. Okay. I mean you know I hear you. And I did you know I was part I had a restaurant but it was a collective. We all did everything so sometimes I was the chef and sometimes I was the dishwasher. Okay got it. So you're a dishwasher. I could use the dishwasher. I'm a good dishwasher and I even like washing dishes. Do you really? I do. Well if you're good at it I will I you are employed but if you're not I'm gonna have a hundred percent fire you. Okay so now there's just I'm gonna ask you a couple more little really quick questions. Tell me something that you would go back and tell yourself at the age of 21 if you could. You will be happy. Oh that's a good one. Is there something you go back and say yes to? I don't think I've ever turned down anything that I wish I hadn't. No. Oh how nice. Is there something that you wish you'd spent less time on? Not really. I mean I'm sorry to say this but I don't have a lot of regrets. I was just gonna say you're not a regretful person. And so what are you learning now? What am I learning now? I've actually been trying to do a whole bunch of new things now. Yeah. You know I mean right after I left gourmet I wrote a novel mostly because I thought I don't know how to do this so let me see if I can. Yeah and I've just turned in a new one and let me say it gets easier the second time and much more fun. I mean one of the things I've learned with that is I find writing very difficult. It is difficult. I like having written but writing itself is often awful. I did not find writing this novel difficult. I found it pure pleasure just a joy. What do you attribute that to? I don't know but my agent said you're never allowed to write anything you do that isn't fun again. Interesting. To have been writing professionally for what 50 some years and suddenly find out that even the act of writing can be fun. Wow. Amazing. Thank you Ruth. This was so much fun. I feel like you know I could just sit here all afternoon. I know I feel the same. I feel like this is a conversation to be continued which you and I can do between us but this has been very kind of you to be so honest and open and near just an inspiration and on so many different levels to me and I know to others of course. Oh thanks. Really fun for me and I'll see you I'll see you now. Yeah please love it. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Bye. Bye. Oh my god. I just agreed to cook for Ruth Ryshell. Why the fuck did I do that? Oh my god. I need to ask my mom what to make. I gotta call my mom. Hi honey. Hi mommy. How are you? All as well all as well and how about you? Everything is great. I mean tons to catch up on. I want to tell you about my call with Ruth Ryshell because mom I wish you could have been in the conversation with us. You would have been so delighted to talk to her. You're cut from the same cloth in many ways. It was incredible. Well first of all I'm glad you know how to pronounce your name because I've always called it Ruth Ryshell. I know. So it's Ryshell. I know. It's Ryshell. Exactly. But the same cloth, can you put that on my tombstone? Yes. Exactly. No, no, no. That makes me feel better about how I boil eggs and everything. Yeah. Every time I boil an egg now I'm going to say this is exactly what the way that Ruth would have done. Right. Exactly. God, I have so much to tell you. So first of all she was talking about growing up in the 50s and she said American food was a complete joke in the 50s. And so I was remembering what you said about D.D. my grandma D.D. and her mom because great grandma Bessie grew her food and canned her food. And your mom's reaction to that she thought that was appalling. It was true. And also I think it's a reaction against you know in other words I think my mom's reaction was she saw her mother in the kitchen all the time doing all this stuff all about meals. And mother's generation that who was there were more flappers and they wanted to have some fun. So frozen foods and canned foods and dresses that weren't homemade. God, and I do think that the generation of my mother that was my mother's thing of the frozen foods and the canned foods was terrible food. And my mother used to make big beans. But what she did was she opened the can and dumped it and then she put a lot of brown sugar in it and that was our baked beans. And then there were our gelatin molds also. What's by the way have been underrated? Right. Because I have to say it's a great thing to make. Perhaps when you come to visit next we'll we'll make it. I will say I find the notion of it repulsive but I'm happy to try it. So this is another thing that she was talking about. She talks about it food and the making of food as a meditation. When she is sort of at her lowest she goes into the kitchen. And that's been a sort of a savior to her. And it's an interesting thing because certainly in our lives together when there have been challenges and we've had a few we often talk about what we're going to make. Absolutely. And I remember at 9-11 that we sat watching that picture over and over again. And I remember feeling that the bottom had dropped out of everything. And then I thought oh my gosh it's Matt Sartre and it's birthday. And so I called Ellie and I said what are you doing from that is birthday. And she said well we're going to go grab for dinner but of course we're not now. I said oh Ellie please please please come over here. And she said great. So I made a meatloaf and mashed potatoes and green beans and apple sauce and angel food cake. I mean I was there cooking and it was like there is a tomorrow there is something to live for. Yeah very important. Well speaking of that mom so she and her husband Michael are coming to LA they're going to be there for a couple of months. And so I said oh my god I have to have you up to Santa Barbara. And I said we can and then I'm immediately I'm thinking oh shit when am I going to cook. And I said well we can I said I can cook and she said we can cook together. And I said yeah okay. Oh my god. I know yeah so you have to start thinking mom what can I make put your thinking cap on and report back to me we have to think about that. Oh gosh. I know. That is going to be priceless that's going to be absolutely priceless. Yeah I know I'm excited and she remember I did give her orange marmalade last year because we had dinner with Jim and Carlene and I gave her orange marmalade and she remembered and was saying how much she loved it so needless to say she's going to get a case of that fucking marmalade when I see her next. Well no no no not a case or a half a case. All right half case I know you get the other half mommy you get the other thank you thank you oh yeah by the way making the marmalade I'll let that that is such a precious thing to do you have the oranges right there and they grow out of your actual soil yeah and then you get them and then you do them and it's the best marmalade in the world. It's pretty good but you know grandma didi would not approve but that's fine we brought it back around to the real thing. That's right that's right that's right it wasn't frozen it wasn't it wasn't bird's eye but it wasn't bird's eye. It wasn't bird's eye. Yeah but we'll get over it. Oh shit okay love you mommy. I love you talk to you later. Okay bye. Bye. Stick around after the break we're sharing a bonus clip with Ruth that only lemon on a premium listeners have heard before don't go anywhere. All right as promised here's a bonus moment from my chat with Ruth where she talks about learning to collaborate as the editor of gourmet and later when writing my kitchen year. If you like this little extra bit you can get more by subscribing to lemonada premium for ad free listening and bonus episodes of Wiser than me. Just tap subscribe on apple podcasts or head to lemonada premium dot com to subscribe on any app that's lemonada premium dot com. Welcome to another premium episode of Wiser than me. Hi I'm Oha one of the producers of the show. This week we're bringing you a little bit more from Julia's conversation with legendary food journalist Ruth Ryshel and this exclusive clip Ruth tells Julia about her love of collaboration and how it completely transformed her 2015 cookbook my kitchen year. Writing that cookbook is another example of... Do we have time can I keep talking? Please I'm loving this so much. I mean it's an example of sort of what I learned being the editor of gourmet which is that you know when you when you're writer you write alone most of the time. Right and what I learned at gourmet was the joy of collaboration. And so when I wrote that cookbook my idea was it was going to be a little tiny like a book of hours you know no and so when I sold it I said to my editor I don't want photographs or anything I just want it to be like a little book that people can take to bed and read at night you know with the recipes in it. Right and she said yes and then I turned the manuscript in and she said no oh no we need photographs and I was like well first of all it's going to put it off a year because it's a seasonal book so we're going to have to take a whole year to shoot it. And she said that doesn't bother me and then she said but you just have to find a photographer you want to work with. So I called my design director from gourmet who I love dearly and said who should I get as a photographer and he said you should get Annie Leeberwith. Yeah you should get Michael Von and I said why and he said because he's really easy to work with you'll work well together and he doesn't he won't he won't bring a lot of lights and stuff. So I called Michael and said would you do this and he said oh I'm done with cookbooks I really don't want to cook books anymore but send me your manuscript. So he called me the next day and said okay I've read your manuscript and I'd like to do it but here are the rules it's just you and me I'm not bringing an assistant you're not having any help we're not having prop people we're not having anybody fussing around with the food it's just you and me and you'll just you'll cook the food I'll come up for three days in each season you'll cook the food we'll put it on a plate it doesn't look good it doesn't look good but it's just going to be the real thing and I said great and we made a contract with him that he would do 20 shots for each season but when he got here he just started taking pictures wandering around the landscape and he took hundreds of great photographs wow and when we went to design the book the wonderful designer just started using all of these photographs and it totally changed the book oh it's like a scrapbook it feels like a personal scrapbook yeah exactly and between michael's photographs and you know this really talented designer you know they came up with something that was so much better than I come up with on my own and you know that's the real joy of working is when each person adds their piece to it and you end up with something better than you started with oh I'll say how a Luya I couldn't agree with that more and that's in evidence in the book and I've had that experience not of course I don't I'm not a food writer but I've had that experience as an actress and I can tell you that it it doesn't get better than that yeah joyful collaboration working towards something and look what comes out of nothing and then all of a sudden it's this glorious thing and you're working in tandem with people it's incredible and I think in the book too what I also love about the book not just how the food is photographed it all looks beautiful but how he photographs your hands and you from behind and it feels the focus it's it's unbelievably artful I love it yeah he was wonderful but also I mean that's what we did at gourmet you know I mean it's like I wasn't like I went in there and changed it I just went in and said to this group of people what are we going to do you know and we very much did it and and that was why giving it up was so difficult because oh my god I got you know we became such an amazing team yes and you know I would I would go in and I would go into a meeting and I would say what if we did a Paris issue right and then everybody would start juggling the wall so and I remember leaving every meeting and thinking I wonder what we're going to end up with you know and it was just the joy of finding what the issue really was going to be and it just kept change I mean it was wonderful it was just so much fun and I really miss that working with people you know are you in touch with those all your people from not well not everybody but there's a big group of us that's yeah you know I mean there I I am in touch with someone from at least one person from gourmet every day you know I mean it felt for all of us it was a well not I mean I think there were some people who it was not such a great experience but for most of us it was really you know as good as it can get in a job it was such a spectacular magazine and what you did with it was so I would imagine leaving it was gutting every show in my life that is ended you know uh all Christine Seinfeld and particularly VEEP you know it was it was gutting yeah even though it was the right thing to do and the time and etc but it was uh it was a similar experience of everybody working towards a common goal and everybody bringing their best selves and a team it's like a team it's like a sports team even you know yeah yeah exactly exactly I um and you I mean you would have that was Seinfeld and I sort of I mean I don't know much about acting anything about acting but you know I sort of imagine that in a good place it's like that where you're all sort of you know have each other's backs and you know and it's like when we we on the other side of the camera is see you know the laugh reels where you're all laughing and I am particularly bad you have the sense of how much fun everyone's having yeah and you know I mean as a writer you just you don't normally have that experience so when when you have it then you have to give it up it's like uh work has been a a savior to you in your life oh I I do not understand how people don't work I really um I you know for me the greatest privilege is working you know in doing you know work that you like yeah I mean I think I think every job I've ever had I would have done for free I mean you know I feel the same it's like it was an extra curricular activity when I was in high school and and now what you make a living doing this yeah I feel the same yeah don't tell my agent but I feel the same it's true that does it for another premium episode of Wiser than me thank you so much for listening and subscribing to Lemonada premium we'll be back next week with another episode of Wiser than me and as Julia says if there's an old lady in your life remember to listen up