BA Bake Club: Boozy Cherry & Chocolate Pavlova

Getting the girls' trip out of the group chat just feels right. The Fort Myers area delivers the memories, bonding, and let's-do-this-every-year energy. Start planning at visitfortmyers.com. Hi, I'm Arden Fanning-Andrews, Vogue's beauty editor-at-large. My husband and I talk a lot of eBay strategy together because it is something that we have bonded over since the beginning of our relationship. We've known each other for 20 years, and we've been using eBay for even longer than that, both of us. He's very proud of his five-star review, which I have the same. We're pretty popular. We have a really good reputation on you guys. I'm Jesse Shevchak. And I'm Sholpa Oskokovic. We are both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appetit. And this is BA Bake Club. Bake Club is Bon Appetit's book club, but it's for baking. We're creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet. Every month, we publish a recipe on BonAppetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll bake, send us any questions you have or pictures of your finished creations. And then we'll go get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. The January Bake Club recipe, Bagels, is live now on BonAppetit.com. And we'll tell you a bit about it at the end of the episode. But today, we're going to be talking about a dessert that is crispy on the outside, soft on the inside, and decadent throughout. Shilpa, of all the layered delights in all the world, why bring this one to the Bay Club? Okay, to be clear, I think we need to let everyone know that it's a pavlova, the layered dessert. Did I leave this up too dramatically? No, no, it's great. That was the best part. Thank you, thank you. You gave that to me on a similar platter. Thank you. The dessert that Jesse talks about is December's Bake Club recipe, which is a cherry chocolate pavlova. And I have long loved a pavlova, but in many ways that has been a challenge for me historically until, you know, I broke the code a few years ago. And I felt, what if we could distill all of this information that I've learned to our Bake Club readers and give them that same boost in confidence in mastering a pavlova, which involves essentially, it's essentially a meringue, which is a very fundamental preparation, I would say, in the pastry world, which we use in many different ways. And I thought it was a perfect challenge for December, especially. It was particularly festive, and it's a great dessert to share with people. And it's quite the talk of the town if you make it. It is really good. I've probably eaten an entire slab to myself during the testing process. Okay, but before we get too far, let's cue some jaunty how-to music. There we go. Shilpa, can you walk us through the basic steps of this recipe? Yes. As in every recipe of mine, there will be mostly three parts, but I guess in this one, there's a fourth one. No cream cheese. Yes, and no cream cheese. Is this a first? Maybe. So I'll go from the bottom up. It starts with the meringue shell, and then it's topped off with cream and a ganache. And I think something important to note about the cream here in my pavlova is it's unsweetened, and I'll explain why. and then you have the cream you have like a chocolate ganache it's bittersweet and really complements the meringue shell very nicely and then the star of the show in many ways are the boozy cherries which I use frozen cherries and then macerate them and cook them off in like a very alcohol rich syrup and they get shiny and glossy they get thrown on there on top of the whipped cream and then it's topped off with chocolate shavings. So all in all, a very beautiful dessert. It is. It's very dramatique. Very. Well, there are a few different elements of this dessert, like you discussed, and they have some techniques, each one of them. But maybe we start with the foundation, the pavlova of it all. So do we want to talk about the meringue? This is probably the most complicated part of the pavlova, the meringue. And it's, I mean, it is the part of the pavlova, I mean, what is a pavlova without its base of meringue? There are two things that kind of sets pavlova apart from any other kind of meringue. And it is the addition of these two ingredients, which are cornstarch and vinegar. You don't usually find those in other meringues, which at its base, a meringue is a mixture of egg whites and sugar. I take salt for granted, so I'm not going to say that. But of course, it's always salt as well. But pavlova is unique in that it has these two ingredients, which along with how high you build your meringue base, they help add to the marshmallow texture that in my mind defines a pavlova. Which was kind of, I'm trying to find the word, not a heated discussion, but I feel like people in the test kitchen who maybe aren't familiar with pavlova are like, why isn't this crisp? Yeah. And I had to come running to shovel it like it's not supposed to be. Yes. Thank you, Jesse. You were a knight in shining armor for the pavlova. Pavlova, thanks for your service, because you really saved the moment there. There were a few tasters in the test kitchen who, as you said, were surprised that the meringue wasn't crisp all the way through. Because I think when you hear meringue, you think of those little kisses in the tub. Yes. Yes. The super crispy, airy. Yes, like astronaut food, kind of. Oh, I love that. It is like astronaut food. And to me and to many others, the defining characteristic of pavlova is it is this has a crispy outer shell and the inside of it is very marshmallowy. I won't say bordering on custardy. I don't think that feels accurate, but it's very it's tender. Yeah, it's like the sister to whipped cream kind of almost. Oh, yeah. Yeah, kind of. And I think that sort of reflects the texture of the cream on top. And that's what makes Pavlova work so well as a dessert is it has all of these contrasting flavors and textures and levels of sweetness. And here's my takeaway when you make a meringue. Any meringue that you make, whether it's for Pavlova or not, I would say adding cream of tartar is non-negotiable. Oh, and for those listening, can you explain what that is? Cream of tartar is actually a byproduct of the wine industry, and it's an acidic white powder that is very potent. And when you add it to egg whites, and also typically cream of tartar can be very easily found in most supermarkets, you know, where you find all the other spices. Yeah, it's like a half-size kind of little baby. Yeah, it's a little baby. Yeah, that lasts a lifetime. It truly does. And, you know, most people might know it for its inclusion in snickerdoodle cookies. Because it's kind of got that taste, like a slight puckery taste, ever so slightly. Yes, it's very tart. Yeah. And the great thing about adding cream of tartar to a meringue is it essentially prevents the egg whites from being overwhipped. And, you know, there is such a thing as when you whip egg whites that there comes a point when, you know, they go through different stages. First, it's like foamy, looks like waves breaking on a beach, like very foamy. And then as you keep whipping it further, it changes its structure. Then it becomes kind of like hair moves. And then it becomes very like, I want to say shaving cream, much more tight and very bright white. And then that's kind of the perfect texture, depending on what you're making, of course. But if you kind of push your meringue beyond that, the egg whites can break out of suspension, essentially. and then they become cottony, I would say. Almost like brittle. Yes. Yes, like dry and brittle. Yes. It's like a water balloon can only hold so much water. It's kind of like the same concept. Correct. Yes. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. Like a marion can only hold that much air. So what are we going for here? So when you add the cream of tartar, there's a chemical reaction that happens and prevents the egg white bonds from essentially sticking to each other and prevents them from overwhipping. Interesting. I did this experiment side by side when I did the pavloa. I ran two meringue bases, one with and one without. And in the pavloa, it's slightly less evident if you skip the cream of tartar because there's so much sugar that it acts like an insulator and sort of prevents the egg whites from overwhipping. But when you bake it off, there was a difference. The one without cream of tartar was a little bit crisper and it was a little bit more dry and like brittle. whereas the one that had cream of tartar sort of preserved its integrity and really held on to that marshmallow-y texture. Interesting. And you said cornstarch as well, right? There is cornstarch. That is one. The cornstarch and the vinegar. Okay, the vinegar I have an explanation for because the acidity of the vinegar in many ways, like cream of tartar, it sort of cuts to the sweetness of the meringue. Think about Coca-Cola and how you're able to drink a can of Coke even though it contains so much sugar, because it's also so acid. And so much acid, too, because it's so sugary, the opposite. Which is a very interesting experiment. And in many ways, the vinegar acts as a tempering agent for all the sugar in the meringue. And there is a vivid difference. Many times when I made the pavlova, I've taken a spoonful of the meringue before adding the vinegar and after. And it's kind of dramatic how the vinegar alters the flavor perception and the perception of sweetness in the meringue. The cornstarch, why it works and why it contributes to the marshmallow texture I will never be able to explain I haven't figured out the answer And if somebody, you know, who's listening knows Please come to me Interesting, I wonder if it has something to do with like some insurance of like moisture affecting it You know what I mean? Oh, okay, got it Like it absorbs the excess moisture Maybe Yeah I have no good explanation Well, it works You know, some things you just got to access That's part of the beauty of baking, I think It's very science-based, but then sometimes it is an exercise in faith. And you just do something that's been done for many years and you trust in the process. There you go. Meringue can go wrong in a few different ways. From a technical point of view, what are some of those dangers that you need to watch out for? So you talked about overwhipping. Yes. Yes. I think overwhipping is really the big factor when you make meringue. What about underwhipping? Oh. That's actually a very good question. You don't really hear about that often. That's true. In the context of pavlova, underwipping would be fatal to your pavlova. You wouldn't have enough structure to even build your pavlova if you underwhip. Yeah, like wouldn't hold. Exactly. So just do it right. No, well, the point, that's why the cream of tartar is here. Okay, sure. Because you have to whip your egg whites until they're very stiff. Sure. And by adding the cream of tartar, you prevent it from overcurdling. So just keep going. Yeah, just keep going. Sure, sure. It's very, very unlikely that when you have the cream of tartar, that you will be over whipping your egg whites in this recipe. Cool. Which brings me to the second essential ingredient when you're making a meringue for pavlova, which is the sugar. Sure. And it's a big part of the pavlova. In fact, in terms of the quantity and weight, it is actually double the amount of egg whites. Oh, wow. And this is very essential. I ran a couple of different tests, which we put up a few pictures of that in our Instagram video attached to this recipe. So I ran a few experiments to see what would happen if you change the ratio of the sugar to egg whites, knowing the ideal ratio is two parts sugar to one part egg white. And then I did 50% sugar. I did equal parts sugar and egg whites. And then I did 250% sugar. And it was very eye-opening, the results. The meringue that had about 50% sugar was super tacky. Pliable kind of? Pliable. Like sticks in your teeth kind of? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was soft and sticky. And also, interestingly, it browned a lot. Oh. It's almost like the proteins in the egg whites sort of didn't have that buffering effect of the sugar. And they start burning in the oven, even though it's at a low temperature. Interesting. Similar results with 100%. So essentially, after much experimentation, realizing that 200% sugar is important, A meringue for a pavlova needs to be sturdy enough that it can support the toppings that are piled on top Sure sure sure sure So it needs to have this amount of sugar which is double the amount of egg whites And we talking about everything is in weights right now Everything is in grams So if I just had I don't know, 100 grams of egg whites, I could throw in 200 grams of sugar and whip something up on a whim. That's it. There you go. And that's why we have rule one of Bake Club. There you go. To always be using your scale. Baker's percentages. In baker's percentages, We just, yeah, as we're saying, 200% with the egg whites being the base of 100%. And then I think when talking about sugar, we spoke about, you know, the amount of sugar that we're adding to make a stable meringue. And then I also want to talk about how you add the sugar in there. Because you don't. Traditional wisdom says add a little at a time because you want it to dissolve. Yes. You go rogue. I dump it all in right away. And I've made this, so I can attest that it works beautifully. But I'm curious how your mind got here. I think this is from many years of experience, and this is something I've always done for a long time. Sure. It started off because I was kind of lazy, and I didn't want to stand next to the mixer and keep adding sugar. It is quite annoying. Yes. And the mixer slaps it towards the side. Yes. So then you just get little crystal stuck. I hate that. Yeah. So it started off because I just wanted to be a bit more efficient when I was baking. I didn't want to have to come back to the mixer every like three minutes and like dump sugar in a tablespoon at a time. And then I later discovered also that actually when you add all of the sugar right in the beginning, before the egg whites start whipping, the sugar dissolves way better because egg whites are pretty much all water. So it's just like prolonging the time for them to dissolve. Exactly. Yeah. So this makes sense in my mind, too. And it made sense on when it happened, too. Yes. Yes, I think it really makes a big difference. And then I think what you might experience if you're not used to this is that it takes a little bit longer to build your meringue. It'll take a little bit longer to like build structure in your meringue. That's just because the sugar, again, is sort of dampening that effect. But in one way, it also, when you add it from the beginning, A, it helps prevent you from over whipping it, extra insurance, besides the cream of tartar. And it also sort of cuts through the egg whites. Like think of the sugar as microscopic blades. And it sort of tightens up the bubble structure of the meringue in many ways. You also don't crank it. No. Yes, because I know some people make their meringue like on high speed or something. You kind of take a more gentle approach. Yes. Like put the sugar in, put the cream of tartar in, salt and let that mixer go at like low to medium speed and just walk away. And I let the mixer run for like 20 minutes, I think. For a long time. It's a little nerve-wracking. No, truly So, listen, I feel like we're going to get a question Can we, like, whip it by hand? I would say no Okay, I'm traumatized from this I was just a tiny boy in culinary school I probably weighed, like, 100 pounds, okay? I was small And I remember they made us make meringue by hand I could not do it And the chef just made me stay there until I could do it No, Jessie And it was, like, quite traumatizing So don't do it Whipped cream, though? That's easy Jesse is a whipped cream by hand stand. So just don't even think about it. How many egg whites was it? I have no idea. Say 100. It's going to be like three probably. What about a hand mixer? A hand mixer could work, but because you can't fine tune the speed as well, you might not get a very stable meringue, but it can still work. Again, with a hand mixer too, I would just keep it at like medium speed. I wouldn't crank it all the way up. Or if you feel that's too long, and it is going to be substantially longer than the stand mixer, so you'll probably need to take breaks. But if you don't feel like dedicating that much time, you can start off at a high speed. And when you build the structure, like when the meringue changes texture and starts to become bright white, you lower the speed back down. And then it cuts out all of the bigger bubbles and makes it stable. So yeah, mixing speed is really vital for a stable meringue. I agree. Okay, so now that you have a meringue, let's talk about the bake. Well, first of all, your recipe makes a slab. Yeah, well... Well? I don't even know how to explain this. Yes, the recipe, as it's published, is for a rectangular pavlova. Which is cool. It's almost like a sheet cake. Yes, but the video that we taped, I made a circle. which is a more traditional shape because I wanted to showcase to readers that it's versatile and you can do whatever shape your heart desires so you can go rectangle or circle and I stand by my decision to switch it up in the last minute it was giving chaotic end of end of day energy but you know what I I turned it into a plus so I was like Jessie should I turn this over a circle I'm like hey I don't know are you getting in trouble I was like it's okay it doesn't matter and Immediately, Chris was like, why is that circle? And I had to, like, you know, come in and market it as like, oh, you know, just showcasing to our readers that anything is possible. Eagle and Morocco. But kind of the moral of the story is put the meringue on a sheet pan with parchment. Yes. And create. A shape of your heart's desire. Of your heart's desire. Okay, great. With some height. With some height. I think that's important. I would say, like, about an inch. Yeah, that sounds right. Is the height to build that base. Anything lower in your meringue, you know, sure, you can monitor the time that it is in the oven. But anything shorter than like an inch, I think the meringue then runs the risk of becoming crispy. So, okay, you're going to bake it. Yes. First of all, should it be brown? And then second of all, what if it cracks? Okay, yes, it should never be brown. Okay, you passed. No, thank you. Yes, please, don't let your meringue... If your meringue is browning, then something has gone very wrong. check your oven. I have you start the pavlova at 300 and then turn the oven down to 275. Essentially, a meringue isn't so much cooking as it is dehydrating. And then you take the meringue out after a certain point of time. In a lot of recipes for meringue or pavlova, sometimes the instructions say to leave the meringue in the oven for a few hours or up to overnight. I think Nigella calls for like forgotten meringue cookies or something. I know exactly what you're talking about. Okay, cool. But in the case of a pavlova, I strongly advise you not to leave the pavlova shell in the oven overnight. When I did it, I experienced the pavlova becoming crisp all the way through. Yeah, I remember this. Which, you know, if that's what you want out of your pavlova, go for it. Still tasty. Yeah, still delightful. Tasty, but not quite that marshmallow-y interior that I wanted and was chasing with the pavlova, which to me is the ideal. So I would say after the pavlova bakes in the oven at this low temperature, let it cool in the oven for maybe an hour at the most, and then finish the rest of the cooling on the counter at room temp. Sure. And what if there's big cracks? It's okay. That's what the whipped cream is there for. Okay. But those fillings, let's talk about them. So it's boozy cherries and chocolate. Why? The boozy cherry and chocolate combo was inspired by a Black Forest cake. Sure. Which I was surprised to learn recently from an article on New York Times Cooking by Priya Krishna that black forest is an almost universal favorite. Interesting. I grew up in India thinking that it's a very Indian cake. Wait, really? Yes. That's so funny. Knowing that it had like European origins, you know, because it's black forest. Yeah. But I thought that, oh, it's like a holdover of, you know, like colonial traditions in India. OK, this is getting too deep in this podcast, only to find out based on the article that there are many countries across the world that also enjoy black forest. Interesting. In a broad way and like a very mass appeal. So I was inspired to do a black forest pavlova because I have really fond memories of black forest cake. Usually when people would visit or if we did well in school, we would get a slice of black forest cake. I love that. So I really wanted to bring those flavors in. And also the color of this whole setup, like the red cherries, the dark red cherries, and the white whipped cream, the chocolate. It feels very like wintertime and holiday. Yeah, I agree. And the cherries, how boozy are they? Well, if you ask Hannah, our deputy food editor, they are not at all boozy. I'm usually on Hannah's side with this. This is true. I like hot booze. Yes, you like when your mouth is on fire. I have a chapter in my cookbook called Boozy. Yes, they're boozy, but not overly so. I agree. Yeah, I think the alcohol here is almost a temperate sweetness and provide like a secondary flavor. Okay, so you have your meringue, you have boozy cherries, you have chocolate. So how do you present this now? Okay, the great thing about a pavlova is you can be messy and it'll still be beautiful. And you just pile everything on top. I think an important part of finishing the pavlova is the cream. And two things about the cream, which, Jesse, I feel you will be very happy to hear, needs to be hand whipped. Yes. You can use a hand mixer for this one. Just don't. It needs to be very softly whipped. I will say this. Don't make your cream very stiff because you want that sort of velvety mouthfeel and texture over that crisp pavlova shell. I think that really works well as a contrast. And the most important thing about the whipped cream is that it's not sweetened at all in any way because the pavlova shell is so sweet. Like think about the sugar. We put double the amount of sugar than egg whites. So it's so sweet. And having this blanket of unsweetened cream on top really works well to bring everything together. So unsweetened cream and then you have your chocolate ganache on top and you just drizzle. Drizzle the chocolate ganache on top, pile the cream, pile the cherries on top. I like to keep the cherries separate from the syrup. And then pour the syrup right before it hits the table so it doesn't muddy the whipped cream. And my favorite part is creating the chocolate curls on top. And for this... Wait, I feel like you need to speak about this. I mean, I can't. You're ready. You're primed. There's like a food styling trick in my old career. You take a bar of chocolate. You need a fat one. Yes. Our favorite and a stylist favorite is Tony's Chocoloney. Not Chocoloney. Yes. Do not get it wrong. And you actually heat it up just ever so slightly, like microwave it for like five seconds. Because when it's cold, it's brittle. But when it's a little warmer and you take like a Y peeler, you can make these like full curls that actually hold their shape. So it just can't be too cold. And that's it. And that's it. And then you, I like to shave directly on top of the pavlova. Yeah. You don't have to move anything around. They break too much. Yes. But yes, having the chocolate bar be a bit warm is really key. I agree. Okay, so now you have this big, beautiful centerpiece. Yes. And how do you actually serve it? I think the best way to do it is give each person a spoon. And just break off a chunk? Yes, give them a spoon and ask them to dig right in. I agree. A pallova is really urging you to be there in that moment. It's not waiting around for anybody. You've got to eat that today, now. I mean, you can have leftovers, but they're never really as good. So I would say just, you know, hack away at the pavlova. I love that. I feel like we should end there. So on that note, hack away and we're going to take a quick break. When we get back, we'll answer some listener questions all about the cherry and chocolate pavlova. If you're looking for some of the sharpest takes around on film and television, I hope you'll tune in to Critics at Large from The New Yorker. So over here, we like talking about what we love, but also crucially what we hated about what we're watching. But even more, we like making sense of what's happening in the culture right now and how we got here. So just join us, OK, as we make our way from Eddington to Moby Dick, from Ted Lasso to the rise in therapy speak, from the pit to Luigi Mangione. You have no clue where we're going to end up. It's Critics at Large from The New Yorker every Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to BA Bait Club. Okay Shilpa are you ready for some listener questions Absolutely Okay first up Christina C writes on the BA Bake Club sub stack Go subscribe Does BA have an official explainer of meringue peaks I thought I had a good understanding of them, except in Sola's book, Start Here, she says that eggs that have a stiff upward point, what I always thought were considered stiff peaks, are actually overwhipped. I am confused. She adds, I assume leftovers should be avoided since they'll probably melt. I mean, you can have leftovers of the pavlova. Just don't. Yes, just don't. You will miss that textural contrast of the crisp outsides, but you can keep well for a day. Okay, let's go on to meringue peaks. That's a great question, actually. And it really depends what stiff peaks mean and when they're used. It really depends on... Kind of what you're making. exactly on what you're making. In the case of the pavlova, you do want very stiff defined peaks. And by this, I mean, when you lift the whisk from the stand mixer bowl full of meringue, you want that peak to be upright, maybe with a tiny little curl at the very tip. Like troll hair. Like troll hair. Yes. Yes, exactly like troll hair. I think when there's sugar, they can be a little more perky. Yes. But if it says stiff peaks for something like you're folding into something, that's different. Exactly. Yeah, then Sola's book, I think that makes a lot more sense. Correct. Yes. If you're folding egg whites into something like a batter, you just want very soft peaks. It's kind of foamy becoming peaks, but it really doesn't have much definition. And that's because if you overwhip egg whites, they kind of lose all of their expansion power. That makes sense. Okay, cool. Next one, Nada writes, amazing. So excited to try to make pavlova. Is it possible to omit the alcohol or substitute it? So I assume she's talking about the cherries. Yes, the cherries. There's a quarter cup of brandy in the cherries. You can easily skip it. Like, yeah, don't worry about it. And you don't have to really sub anything for it. You probably have a slightly reduced cook time, but you don't need to substitute anything for the alcohol if you want to not use it. Okay, cool. on portion sizes Tim Sefchek not related Jesse Sefchek he writes and more taunts I will say so the recipe says eight servings but if there are only three of us that's only two eggs per person which sounds very reasonable and I'll accept your challenge of no leftovers you know what I agree Tim I could definitely eat all of this that is a lot of sugar but I have done this there's a reason why Tim Sefchek is a valued member of our bake club. He's supporting us. Our producer is also taunting us and asking, would you rather two eggs in a pavlova or two eggs in an omelet? Two eggs in a pavlova. Pavlova, yeah, an omelet, that's enough. Okay, an additional question from Nada. If I wanted to pipe them as mini pavlovas, would that change anything? Maybe just a lower bake time? Ooh, cute. Cute. Okay, my question is, how many are the mini pavlovas? Because I think if there are too many, then they're going to become crispy and kind of lose that contrast. Oh, that's true. I feel like the pavlovas need to be about at least four to six inches wide and still maintain one inch height. Anything smaller or shallower could get crisp. Yeah, you'll just end up with a cookie. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, fine. It's like a meringue nest. Yeah. But I wouldn't change anything in terms of the ingredient makeup or how I make my meringue. It would remain the same. And then, of course, you can pipe them into whatever shape. And yes, the temperature also will stay the same when you bake it. But I would pull the meringues a bit earlier from the oven. And it's hard to say exactly when I would start testing about 20 minutes ahead of the time indicated in the recipe. And essentially, a good way to check is that the meringue sort of lifts off from the parchment sheet. And once it easily peels from the parchment, then you know it's ready to come out of the oven. Cool. Okay. Roberto asks, if I were to use fresh cherries, don't have frozen, what would you change in the recipe? Or everything stay the same? I would say that everything stays the same in terms of what ingredients you're using to make the syrup. but you might have to just keep an eye on your cook time. You might actually need to cook the cherries a bit longer in the syrup initially because since they're fresh, they're tougher in a way. They're juicier and they'll take a little bit of time to break. When you freeze cherries and then you thaw them in the context of making this, that freeze thaw cycle sort of ruptures the cell walls of the cherry and helps things break down a bit faster. but with fresh cherries they can be quite firm to begin with so you need to cook them a little bit longer and then the rest of the recipe stays the same you still remove them set them aside and then continue to cook the syrup down and a similar question we got from meg is i could only find sweet cherries at my grocery store for this month's bake but i love tartness in my desserts was there a way to add something tart to mimic the tart cherries or does it not matter too much given the red wine vinegar? I would say it doesn't matter too much. Or rather, I would say you can get your fix of tartness by adjusting that braising syrup rather than trying to alter the cherries in any way. That's kind of difficult to do so. So I would stick with the sweet cherries, cook them as it says in the recipe. But maybe what I would do if you like a slightly more sour like punch is I would add a little bit more red wine vinegar to the syrup. After it's been reduced and cooled, I would just stir in a cap full of really good red wine vinegar right before I serve and drizzle the syrup on. So taste and adjust seasoning as needed. Season. There you go. Season as needed. Love that. We are going to take another break. When we get back, we'll introduce you to a baker you should know. Thank you. on Hollywood's biggest night. Tune in immediately after the Academy Awards on March 15th at 10.30 p.m. Eastern, 7.30 p.m. Pacific on VanityFair.com. Welcome back to BA Bake Club. It is one of my favorite parts of the show. It is time for us to introduce you to a baker whose work we think our listeners should know about. And this month, we're skipping across the pond to England And we are reaching out to award-winning pastry chef, recipe developer, author of the very famous Substack Kitchen Projects, Nicola Lamb. Welcome to BA Bake Club, Nicola. Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited to be talking to you both. I've spent all afternoon listening to you guys in preparation to make sure I've got my best tips. So I'm very excited to be here. That's flattering and scary. I know, I was going to say. Those are both. We are very, very thrilled to have you. I have been a longtime fan of yours for many, many years. Like from the time that you had, didn't you have an online course called Puff? Yeah. Yes. Oh, my gosh. That saved me during lockdown. It was just like incredible to be able to connect with people through baking. And I remember that with that pastry school, everyone was making the most amazing things. People were making perfect croissants right in the middle of what was probably one of the most traumatic kind of times for so many people. But some beautiful things did come out of it amazingly. I actually want to talk a little bit about Puff because in many ways, I feel like that was, at least to me, that was one of the earlier iterations of direct to readers, listeners sort of connection. And, you know, can you talk a little bit more about what you were trying to do with those online courses during lockdown? To be honest, it was a time when all of the kitchens had closed. So it was a moment of needing something to do that felt meaningful and felt connected. I think one thing that food has always done has connected people, whether that's having lunch with friends or cooking for your family. So in absence of that, it felt really precious and exciting to be able to kind of cook all together and to kind of provide a bit of structure to people's lives. So that was sort of an amazing project. And when I was going on my book tour last year and this year, there were so many people who sort of came up to me and said, oh, my gosh, we did the puff course. And it was so special. And I'd always give them a huge hug and say thank you, because it was really something that helped me, number one, go into the work that I do now, which is more teaching and learning and learning along with other people. But it really showed me it was real proof that baking is something that brings people joy, even in the darkest times. So and I think that's what you do with the with the Bake Club. You're sort of creating a community where everyone is cooking the same thing at once. And it does feel very special. I mean, do you guys feel that way about the Bake Club? Yeah, I mean, I feel like baking is like so nuanced and like there's no easy answer. So it's really nice to have these like longer form discussions with people. Yes. Yeah. It's refreshing. And I was almost moved to tears when you were talking about, you know, the course, because it is true, like connecting with people. And, you know, it feels very essential, I guess, at a time when so much of our work is prioritized to being easy or efficient. It really feels very, I don't know, rebellious almost to be baking and talking about it. I learned so much to talking to people. And we're all such islands these days, you know, with algorithms and everything. We're all being shown different things all the time. So it does feel really special occasionally when you can meet with a group of people who are all experiencing the same thing together. And I think that's something really fun you can do with food and kind of cooking along with the same recipe. It truly is a delight to read your work. And same thing with your book, SIFT, which came out in 2024 and won the 2025 James Beard Award for baking and desserts. And your book carries that same wane of teaching, which I think is a big part of your work. Did the final book match the vision that you started with? I felt quite strongly about what I wanted the book to be. And I do think it ended up being quite true to what I wanted, which is kind of a modern reference book that kind of marries together a traditional kind of textbook style pastry book, which I loved. And, you know, I always felt that baking books lived on kind of the two ends of an extreme spectrum. They either lived on a very technical books, which weren't particularly enjoyable to spend a lot of time in, as in like, you know, they had not great design compared to other baking books. And they'd be quite dense in terms of their information. And the recipes would be for, you know, 20 kilos of croissant dough. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you'd have books which were 100 Beautiful Recipes, which I love. And I have both of those books. So I always wanted to find a way to be somewhere halfway with SIF, which I think we achieved. Totally. I think it's a stunning book. And it's like kind of like recipe as long form, kind of. And I love that. Question, like what is one piece of advice you have for bakers looking for a new recipe? Like how do you find recipes? So I really think that it's important for people to find recipe writers or chefs that they have similar taste buds or sensibilities to. Like I find that if you can kind of find a writer who generally everything that they post, you're like, wow, that sounds really good. Or wow that sounds very aligned to what I like Then it a really great place to start and to begin and to delve into that back catalogue because you often learn so much kind of like following them down that particular path And if you already vibe with what they doing then chances are you going to really continue to vibe with those flavour profiles. And along the way, you often find that they mention chefs that they like. And I do think that that's a really good way to kind of expand your baking repertoire. I love that. It's like the Spotify recommendations kind of. Yeah, kind of, yeah. Oh, that's so smart. Okay, so this episode is all about Shilpa's big cherry chocolate pavlova. It looks stunning, by the way. It looks amazing. I've eaten probably like a full entire slab of this during testing. I can attest it is so good. What's the hardest thing you think when it comes to mastering meringue? Because I feel like it can be a challenging thing. You know, it's susceptible to being over-ripped or under-ripped or it's fine and then it cracks. Like what is the hardest thing about it? I think cracking is probably the most stressful thing that can happen with meringue because I think you have this vision of what it's going to be like. You've, you know, spent all this time whipping the egg whites. You spent all this time incorporating the sugar and you've followed everything perfectly. And then just when you think that I'm here, I've made it, I'm safe. Look at this stunning concoction I've made. And then you come back two hours later and it's weeping or it's bleeding and it's really gutting. And that's sort of one of the things you have to learn is that cracking does happen. And actually you have to have that kind of Japanese mindset about it, that sometimes cracks are very beautiful and they shouldn't be. It doesn't mean that your meringue has failed. It's just, you know, there could be a million reasons why it's happened. And I think that people can be really hard on themselves about the cracking, especially when it's been such a journey to get to it. But I think that's what makes pavlova a good meringue dessert to make, because even if it cracks, you have the whipped cream to put on top. Yeah, you're supposed to break it. Exactly. I do think that the thing about over whipping egg whites is funny. I remember I was making pavlova for the first time and I was whipping. And often I do this with my newsletter. I try and kind of push it to the limit. and I whipped the pavlova for 55 minutes to see if it would overwhip my poor KitchenAid. My KitchenAid has finally died after 10 years, by the way. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I have another one. It was ready, waiting in the wings, throwing you at some point after all of these abusive development sessions where, you know, it was over 50 minutes. 10 years in your kitchen is probably 30 in somebody else's. Yeah, a lifetime. I know. So I did it for 50 minutes and it hadn't over whipped. It was still good. But when I then turned this mixer up to high speed, then things changed very, very quickly. So I found with pavlova, actually the speed at which you're whipping your egg whites made a really big difference. And I know that some people might be making it with an electric mixer. So you don't have quite as much control, like a hand whisk versus a stand mixer. But I found that that was kind of an interesting lesson to learn because I think there's this feeling especially with everything it's you know faster equals quicker equals better equals easier but certainly when you're incorporating air into everything I actually think it's often better to to do things slightly more slowly and what you're doing is you're creating a much more even bubble structure inside your meringue it's the same for making a sabayon or making genoa sponge or even whipping cream. You know, I have a friend that makes meringue using the paddle attachment, not a whisk on their stand mixer because it's a much more gentle inclusion of air. So I do think that that was one of the lessons that I personally learned. I will say whipped cream with a paddle attachment, that's elite. That's good. Yeah, he does it for an hour. That's insane. On a really slow speed. I feel like knowing all of the things that you tested for pavlova makes you the perfect candidates for our reader question, because undoubtedly you had many, many, many, many egg yolks left in your fridge. Oh my gosh, so many egg yolks. Absolutely. Emily has asked, what can I do with egg yolks? That's our question. Well, I often find that I'm either, I either have too many egg yolks or too many egg whites. And it's so funny because it's almost like I forget the other side of me that would suddenly need egg whites or suddenly need egg yolks. So if you don't want to use them right away, you can freeze egg yolks, but you need to mix them with sugar first. So let's say you're going to make ice cream one day, or you're going to make pastry cream, or maybe you're going to make, you know, a sabayon or anything that kind of, you know, a chiffon cake that uses a nice kind of egg yolk base as well. You can freeze your egg yolks. I think you need to do about 10% sugar to the weight of it, mix them up, and then you can freeze them. If you try and freeze egg yolks and then defrost them, they kind of gel in a very funny way. But if you interrupt that gelling with the sugar, then you can use them for later, which I think is actually quite handy because often, as you say, you know, if you've ever been making pavlova as a project, you've got all of these egg yolks. Or then if on the other side of it, if you've been making panettone, which is the other side of things which uses a lot of egg yolks then you end up with loads of egg whites so I think storing is a great idea if you're looking to use your egg yolks up right away then there's a really fantastic Portuguese cake and I'm gonna butcher the pronunciation but it's called a bao de lo p-a-o-d-e-l-o and it's an amazing rich olive oil and egg yolk kind of whipped cake. It's got very, very low flour in it, but it's this incredible kind of, it souffles up and then it falls back down and it's super gooey and you put olive oil on it and salt. And that is an amazing cake that uses up a lot of egg yolks. But also, I mean, look, I'm English, so I'm always into making custard. You know, I wasn't actually expecting the advice about storing the yolks and that's very helpful and smart. What did you guys do with all of your, I mean, did you make pasta, I guess? Oh, I guess. Personally, I hate egg yolk pasta. Really? Like a carbonara? Yeah. Come on. I know, it's weird. For this particular one, I ended up making like a very rich chocolate pudding with the egg yolks. You kind of make like a pastry cream, like a creme anglaise essentially, and then you mount chocolate into it. You can also make really nice buttercream, so like German buttercream. So if you're making a birthday cake or something, you can make a creme mousseline. And so that's, you know, you make the pastry cream and add a bunch of butter to it. Okay, cool. So, okay, we wanted to close with a little rapid fire game to hear your baking hot takes. Are you ready? I'm so ready. Okay. I'm scared. I know, they're good. Chocolate or cinnamon? Chocolate. No hesitation. No hesitation. But you know what? America smells like cinnamon to me every time. You know what? I agree. The bakeries in America all smell of cinnamon. I agree. And if I go into it and bakeries in the UK never smell of cinnamon. So if I walk into a place in London that smells of cinnamon, I feel like I'm in America. Wow. We can make an America scented candle. No, it is. It would be cinnamon. It would 100% be cinnamon. Most underrated baked good? I think cannellés. Oof, I love a cannellé. Very good one. I love one. That is good. most overrated? Donuts. For me, I'm not a donut girl. I really struggle with them. There's a million other things I'd rather eat than a donut. So I may get some hate for this. But for me, I think donuts get too much love. I endorse this. Okay. The best compliment you've received on a bake? I think when someone makes your bake good multiple times is the biggest compliment you can get so it's less in words but more and if someone says this has become my go-to birthday cake or my go-to thing i always make i think actions speak louder than words so that to me is the biggest compliment i love that okay last one your favorite bake to take to a celebration i think you can't go wrong with like a suite of tiramisu's a sweet i would So yeah, what are the flavors? Bringing several flavors is always going to be the key. It's very exciting and everyone can have a flight of tiramisu for another wedding. And you can use up your egg yolks. That's so true. Absolutely. Nicola, thank you so much for being here. It's truly, truly been a joy. Thank you so much. And before you sign off, do you want to tell people where we can find you on the internet? absolutely so you can find me on instagram my name is nicola a lamb on instagram because nicola lamb was taken and you can find my sub stack it's called kitchen projects and i publish every sunday a deep dive into a recipe an ingredient and i have amazing columnists as well so you won't just hear from me you'll hear from some really brilliant bakers like camilla winn bronwyn wyatt brian Levy. It's a great place to be if you love baking. Thank you again for being here. Truly a joy. Thank you so much. That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club. Jesse, can you tell our bakers about the January Bake Club recipe? Yes, it is bagels. Surprisingly, Bon Appetit did not have a recipe for bagels. I know. And it felt like quite a challenge to make an at-home bagel recipe, but I did so without any special order ingredients or equipment. No lye needed, no malt syrup needed, which I know maybe people will have thoughts, but I'm standing firm. I think you're created remarkably, and mind you, like we live in New York City, so there's no dearth of good bagels here but you created a version that is just as good as any out there and the fact that you did it without any special ingredients i think is quite remarkable thank you and i think it just makes it well for people everywhere across the country and i think that's important in the context of bake club um any special equipments well you already said there's no special ingredients but any special equipment you know what no but i would say if there is a topping in your dream in your heart that you wish was on a bagel, now is your opportunity to make it happen. And I will say, furikake was my favorite. So get yourself some furikake. Well, Bake Clubbers, once you bake through the bagels, send us your pictures and questions. There are so many different ways to get in touch. You can comment on the recipe on the Epicurious app or on the Bon Appetit website. Comment on our sub-stack chat, or you can email us at bakeclub at bonappetit.com. And if you've made it and loved it, please rate and review the recipe on our site. We're your hosts, Jesse Sepchik and Shilpa Oskoukovic. Michelle O'Brien is our senior producer and Emily Elias produced this episode. Michael Jino and Wins Fairchild are our studio engineers. Research editing by Jaya Klingham-David. This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound. If you like this show, leave us a rating and review and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode. And if you're not already part of the club, head to boneappetite.com slash bake club to find all the information you need to join. Thanks for listening to BA Bait Club. We'll see you next month. Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, Global Director of Vogue Runway and Vogue Business and host of the Run Through Podcast. Every Tuesday, join me for the latest fashion news like the shakeups of Balenciaga and Dior and what's trending in Paris and Milan. You'll also hear interviews with top designers from Marc Jacobs and Rick Owens to Daniel Roseberry, Sarah Burton, and many more. On Thursdays, Chloe Maul, editor of Vogue.com, and Choma Nadi, head of editorial content at British Vogue, take you behind the scenes at Vogue and share their thoughts on fashion through the lens of culture. You'll hear interviews with some of your favorite stars like Julianne Moore, Pharrell Williams, and celebrity stylist La Roche. Join us to get your fashion and culture news twice a week. Listen to The Run-Through with Vogue every Tuesday and Thursday, wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.