KHC 176 - Chris Dudley

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop, I use it. Every comment, hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move is so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right. Well, this is the Keep Hammering Collective, and I'm here with Chris Dudley. It's a huge honor. This, I say, I don't really know what to expect with this podcast ever because we go from just I don't even know what the topics we talk about to now. This is like a very honored and it's like I have so much respect for what you're doing. You're running for governor of Oregon as a Republican candidate. And you've you've been in this game before. You've been an NBA star. You've done so much, and it's a huge honor to have you here. And it's like I'm feeling a little pressure to be professional. Well, no pressure because the honor is mine. I mean, I've got to tell you, I'm honored and love your story on so many different levels. And I'm excited. I'm excited to talk. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, I never thought I'd ever have politicians on here. And I, and well, well, I, you know, I frame myself as the outsider coming in. So I'm not a, yeah, as we talked about it, I'm doing it because I want better. I want better for a state. This is an incredible state. I want better for my kids, your kids. You know, we've got, uh, our kids are sixth generation Oregonians and they're eventual kids. And as we were talking earlier, and I know as you explore the state, it is an amazing place and proud to be here. Oh, man. Yeah, we get kind of painted with this liberal brush or this, you know, we got the crazy stuff that goes on in Portland. And most of the state, I mean, if you look at the state, you look at the voting in the state, in fact, it's mostly all red. Yes. There's a few little blue spots. Those blue spots have a lot of people in them. But we are a red state by and large. You know, when you go outside of Portland, Eugene or wherever, it's like it's just conservative, hardworking people that love Oregon and love our country. Yeah, exactly. And they're very frustrated, frustrated by what's been going on. And it is I forget the exact. I think I won 32 or 33 out of the 36 counties when I ran years ago. And there is a real frustration by the rest of the state that everything is dictated coming from Portland in Eugene, those areas. And there's a frustration. There's so many just hardworking people who want to put their heads down. They want to do what their families have been doing for years and just want to be left alone and be able to do their work. Yeah. And they get frustrated. and I know you've dealt with this a little bit where you have people saying oh they don't care about the environment and they're like what? Our families have been here for five generations logging, farming, fishing we want it for the next couple generations we want to take care of it. We are good stewards and we're going to pass it on to the next generation and there's a real passion to that as there should be. We are definitely tied to the land and you even think about how the existence of Oregon, but it's the people that survived the Oregon Trail, came all the way out here. We are tough, resilient people, right? And we appreciate the land. We love nature because of, maybe because that's our ancestries. That's how it worked. So we have this deep connection to it. And yes, farmers, ranchers, people who work in timber, that's, I mean, that's who we are, right? And so we're always going to protect that. And it doesn't mean that we care more than most people about protecting that, I think, because of that. Oh, absolutely. It's funny. My wife's grandmother, Emma's great-grandmother, my daughter's over there, used to take artifacts into schools from the Oregon Trail that came from her family. And it's just there is that core. And what's always attracted me to Oregon, I came in 93 with the Blazers. and just that pride and that sense of independence and that toughness. And I think that's at the core of the Oregon I love. Yeah, me too. One thing I do like about our political landscape, there's not much I like, but what I do like is that how we're set up is who's president sort of doesn't really matter for the states. You know, the governors run the states, basically. so because we have obviously trump in office and we have kotech running the state so trump can't really it's what she says right it's like what she promotes or pushes or whatever so that gives me hope because the presidential election sometimes you're wondering do we have anything to do with that i don't even know you know i mean it's usually decided by the time he gets out here doesn't mean not don't vote but sometimes you like wonder the value or you you hope you're make any difference. I mean, we got to vote because that's, you know, not enough people do. But when you talk about governors, you can make a huge difference in the state that you, you know, your home state or whatever. And so I'm just curious, we haven't elected a Republican governor since 82. How can it be different this time with you? 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Again, keep hammering, one word for 20% off. Don't roll with weak gear. Go Grizzly. Well, I think a couple things. One is when I ran in 2010, it was the closest election in the past 70 years in Oregon. I had the highest vote percentage of any Republican candidate since Governor Atiyah in 82. And it's really running on a message that can cross party lines and say, listen, let's let's let's agree. And I come from a family that's got I've got the left and I've got the right. And they're great people, some crazier ideas than others and all that. But it's being able to, and it's lost a lot today, but being able to talk to people and say, let's focus on the core issues that are facing our state and that education, we're ranked 50th for fourth grade testing. Dead last in the country. And I feel like sometimes I've got to remind people there's only 50 states, so that means we're last. That should not sit well whether you're Republican, independent, Democrat. We all have kids. We all want our kids to do well. The economy, where we're ranked 47th in job creation. Again, we all need our kids. We all need jobs ourselves. That's a key issue. Livability, safety. It shouldn't be where my wife and my daughter talk. We live up in Sist or Central Oregon, an amazing place. But they shouldn't have the discussion. Do we need to carry to go for a hike? And it's crazy. It didn't used to be that way. So safety is a big issue. And then we've had an addiction crisis in Oregon from self-inflicted wounds of allowing drugs. And we're not just talking about drugs. We're talking about poison. literally fentanyl there's no good from doing fentanyl it's literally killing people and it's uh hey can we agree that we should not be killing people on our streets yeah seems easy and and well and so if you focus on the core issues and you do it in a way i think you can you can expand expand the tent you can talk to people and also i'm i'm really encouraged by younger voters it's There was a study done that the young Gen Z, kind of the 18 to 24, 25, is one of the most conservative generations in the past 60 years. And I think a lot of that's from what we've been going through from COVID, from what's happening in the schools. It disturbs me when, whether it's my own kids or talking to other parents, they'll say, when I'm in college, It was in college. I won't name the college, but I feel like I've got to write the paper a certain way that's going to agree with my teacher's, professor's viewpoint. That's not right. Left-leaning. Yeah, that's not right. We've lost our way in so many ways. And the good news here is, and as I said, came painfully close when it ran last time. We had it one Tuesday night, and it felt like it lost in double overtime because it was Thursday by the time we'd lost. But even more now than then, nobody, as I've traveled the state, has said it's working. And that's – some of my Democrat friends are saying, you've got to run. We've got to change this. It's gotten crazy. And so I think there's a sense that there's a way here, the path, that people are tired of ricocheting or not even ricocheting in Oregon. It's just so far away. It's just the craziness. Can we just focus? Can we have government focus on the things it should do, which educate our children, keep our streets safe, on and on and on, some of the basics? Yeah, I agree. I have a question, kind of like an overarching bigger question, because I did, I tried to help Drazen last time, because I, you know, it was time, it was like we had, God, now I can't, what was her name, Brown, right? Brown was before. Yep, yep. And obviously people were burnt out on that. You look at Portland as a disaster, you're like, okay, this should be an opportunity to, maybe we can, maybe can happen. what i was a little frustrated with was you know i liked christine i liked what she was saying but it's like when you look at like this governor's race because i know and i was talking to another politician where this is just just um kind of big numbers thrown out but but she told me she's like to run for governor 50 million to run for president 500 million and i'm just like is that really getting the people who can make a difference when you say you need 50 million to even play the game so then you look and I was like okay I didn't realize that I didn't know it was like I don't money controls everything but if uh if we're eliminating people because they don't have 50 million dollars they might be the greatest leader in the world and then but they don't get the opportunity so then you look at like who campaigned here for Kotech and it was Washington you know Washington Biden came out um Pelosi came out Harris came out uh Drazen didn't have anybody from Washington, but you're like wondering, okay, did that cost her? Did we need support from the big political names? But what happens, in my opinion, is Washington comes in, makes an impact, gets our person elected. Then they're gone. They don't deal with it. We're dealing with it. They got her elected, but Drazen didn't get the support she needed from Washington to get the voter base mobilized because sometimes they need to see those people they see on TV be like, yeah, okay, I need to go vote. Sometimes it takes that. So tell me, how do you address the fundraising part? And then what's your thoughts on Washington support versus just grassroots support? Yeah, that's a great, great question. And I think there's a couple of things. And I'll start off with, I think it's very important as candidate that you get out there, and you've seen this, especially Trump, President and Trump did a good job with this, of being in different places and going beyond the conventional media to reach people. And it's really important that you meet people where they're at and you get out there and connect with them. I think one of the problems with any candidate in Oregon who's a politician from Salem, Republican, It's hard to win a general election because they can't earn that trust that's there. This election, it will be on the Democrats' side. They will want to focus on federal issues because they think that wins for them. President Trump is not as popular in Oregon. They'll go right at that where I'm going to say, no, no, we've got to stop that nonsense. We have to focus when our education system is dead last, when we're 47th in jobs, etc., when Portland's ranked 80th out of 81, we need to focus on Oregon. And that's going to be the core, and that's going to be a big thing. I'm going to be focused on Oregon. We need real solutions for our serious problems. The fundraisers, it's not easy. I mean, it's the hard part. It's one of the hard parts of the job is making calls because I can't make, When I ran in 2009, I felt like my opponent had to make three calls, the three big unions. And that was 70% of what he raised, where I had to raise from tens of thousands of people. And people would say, well, you've got Phil Knight. Well, yeah, Phil supported, but he was only 4% of my total raise. So I had to reach out and had to get broad support. And that's incredibly important to get your message out there. And I think I'm going to be so focused on Oregon, I'm trying to mitigate the coming in from Washington. Yeah. Because you're right. A lot of times they'll come in, they'll come in, help, but then leave. Yeah. And yet here we are. And I think the point being is in Oregon, we've really had one party control for 25 years. And here we are. And I would say, when running against Governor Kotak, I'm going to say, you know, she's been in power for about 12 years. Eight as Speaker and four as Governor. What metric, name one area that's gotten better. And you can't do it. You can't come up with one thing. I mean, even when we talk about environmental issues, and as we talked about, I hate that sometimes, I think as conservative, We should be on the offensive environment, not on the defense, because we care passionately about it. But even there, you can't say it's working because of the wildfire problems we've had. So there's not one area that has gotten better. Education spending has gone up, basically doubled, up 80%, and our results have gotten worse. And it's so often, and I talk about, and this is the message I want to get out there, is that to me, leadership is a combination of empathy and accountability. The empathy is understanding what Oregonians are going through. The empathy is being able to understand. And I came from a background, and I know you did as well. But, you know, I remember my whole family was educators, teachers, professor. I remember when my mom, when the car broke down and being like, man, how are we going to pay for this? We're living month to month. That's hard. It's real. It's real. I think half the state is living month to month, and it's real. It's having empathy for the parents that say, I want my kids to be ready to go into the real world when they graduate from high school. That's real. It's having that empathy, but then the accountability. The accountability has just been totally missed. where we're just throwing money at problems but with no results, no tracking. And I think that's where I come from, and I'd say experience can mean different things. I think experience in political office can be one thing, and, yes, there's value there in knowing the system, working the system. But I believe at this point experience from I've been in the financial world. I've been CEO of a company. I've started a company. I've run a nonprofit here in Oregon for over 30 years. Having that experience, I'd say, is even more beneficial. Having a degree, you know, economics from Yale. You know, I do think it makes sense to have a background in economics and having signed the front and the back of a check, you know, know how to read financially. I think that does matter. Run a business. But it's a combination. So it's not, when you talk about government, it's not just a business. It is a part nonprofit as well. It's almost like a nonprofit. There's people relying on you. There's people relying on you. And when you throw these stats around, when you talk about these statistics, which are helpful in context, but behind each one of them is a story. And you're seeing that. And that's what I love is traveling the state. I used to with being a Blazer, you have people come up to you, and you talk sports, whatever. But now when you're running, people come up to you, and they want to talk about what's going on in their business and how it's getting hammered or just what they're seeing or what's going on in the schools. And I enjoy that, and they're concerned. And for me, I'm not doing this because I need to do it or I've been successful. You know, I'm secure. I'm good. But I'm doing it because I just feel like we need a voice, and we need a voice that can win. And winning is important, as you know. And I think for me, it's my having been based in the Portland area, familiarity with it. People know that what I've done over the years from nonprofit, from business, being on board, they know I've done it for the right reasons. And I think that really helps with people being comfortable with me. And I've shown that I can when it came painfully close, but have the ability as a Republican in the state to resonate, to expand the tent and resonate across party lines. Well, I mean, you're so varied in your experience. You mentioned all that, but like, you know, the team environment, the business environment, the human, you know, to plan on a team as a professional level is hard. You've got a lot of personalities you're trying to match and achieve a common goal, which is no different than being a governor, right? It's just like everybody has their own agenda, like on a team. Everybody wants their points. You've got to get your rebounds. I've got a contract coming up. I've got to get mine. But we still need to win. So I get that. And I think, sorry to interrupt, but I think that's why it's important at this point in time for somebody from the outside to come in and not have all those battle. You're seeing so often with both on both sides. They're so divisive. They're so partisan right now. I think being able to come from the outside and saying, no, we need to lead and we need to bring everybody. We're not going to agree on everything. I know that. But kind of lead as the core mission. We may have different ways of getting there, But my mission is to improve these areas, not to score political points. If I'm there for four years and done, fine. Yeah. I mean, I don't even care. I don't need I'm not taking the salary. You know, I'm this is to get these things done and forget all the politics as much as possible and say, hey, let's let's work together because it's make a difference. This is actually why you guys are supposed to be wanting to do this. Yeah. Is to get things done. And there is no metric in which you can say we're succeeding. I mean, you know, as the governor, I'd be mortified if I'd be so embarrassed if we were ranked 50th in anything. And across the board, we're in the bottom of just about everything. And at some point, it should that should really, really bother you. And it's like, how do we how do we address this? Yeah, no. Well, that's OK. I have other questions. But just for example, how do we rise above 50th in school education? I mean, what would you do to address that right there, just that one thing? Well, and there's a number of things. There's a number of parts to it. And like everything, it's complicated, but it's easy. And by that, I mean sometimes there is getting down within the trees and managing different things, but you've got to be able to look above it and have a high-level view. for one thing is with fourth grade testing where we are ranked 50th is the science of learning and you've seen other states do this where you get basically it's getting back to phonics on how we teach to learn uh teach to read and you saw mississippi go from 47th to 5th by focusing on this you're even seeing california adopt it because it's kind of proven now that we we lost our way we've got to get back to the science of reading. Back to the basics. Back to the basics, basically. Yeah. And the other one is, and I'll use the sports analogy here, when you're ranked 50th, if you're coaching a team or running a team that's dead last in its league, should you have the shortest amount or the least amount of practices of any other team? No. No. No. I mean, it's kind of common. You know, it's like you've got to put the time in. And right now we have the shortest, we have the least amount of school time or top, you know, bottom three or four of school time in the country. And you throw on there, we have a 34% lead the nation in absenteeism. So kids just are not in the class. And we've got to figure that out. Yeah. And we've got to figure it out. What do you think is the cause of that? Well, I think there's a couple things. One is Oregon has, you know, I think a lot of it comes from unions and contract negotiations, that sort of thing. But somehow we've gotten to the point where we require the fewest school days in the country. And we need to change that We need a mandate We need a mandate Yeah it part of the you know it part of the but it we need to be in class It just like as you know you get better by putting in the time Getting the gym. Getting the gym. And it's, you have to do it. Whether you, to me, that's a non-negotiable. We're not going to improve. If a kid from Washington and a kid from Oregon, they both graduated high school. they meet that kid from Washington has had the equivalent of one full year of school more than the kid from Oregon. I use ketone IQ when I need to stay sharp for the long haul, long runs, lifting before I shoot my bow. Even when I'm podcasting, anytime I want steady focus without crashing. What I like about it is how it feels. It helps me stay locked in during long efforts and mentally demanding sessions. Not jittery, not wired, just clear and steady. Ketones are your brain's preferred fuel source. 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That's a that's an example that you talk about. And the kids to me is like they would want every day off. Yeah. So it's not it shouldn't make them go to school. They will do what they're told. Just make him go. Yeah. It might be good that the kids under 18 can't vote because they might not like that. Oh, no. But at the end of the day, kids do want to be taught. And they do want to be. You know, it's interesting. It's just like discipline. We talk about it as a parent. Kids need discipline, and they sort of want it because they feel safer. People care. As a coach, and I coached youth, and with my coach, I remember back when I played for the Knicks, and there was a new coach that came in, Jeff Ngunny, great guy. Yeah. And he followed Pat Riley. and Pat Riley was kind of dapering. I remember him on somebody's leg. Yeah, I was on that team there. I was right there when that happened. Whose leg was he on? Alonzo, Morton. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. But you loved that as a player. You loved it. Hey, he's right there. He's getting in the middle of it. He's getting in the middle. And I remember him being concerned. He told the story of being concerned, talking to Pat Riley, who was Mr. GQ, Mr. Dapper, Showtime Lakers. Will the players respect me as their coach? And Pat Riley gave him great advice, which is yes, they will. Players want a coach that will put them in a position to succeed, and that's so true. I want a coach that will reward effort, that playing time is not dictated by the front office, but it's what happens on the court, and I want you to drive me. I want you to get the most out of me. help me get the most out of myself. And if you do that and you know the coach cares about you, you'll succeed. Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, so the player's coach, that's the coach who doesn't hold anybody accountable. Right. And that works for a little while probably, not long-term success. Maybe sometimes. Or it works a little bit when you have a top player who sets the tone in the locker room. Right. Okay. You know, when I went to the Knicks, we were a hard-working team. Who was the guy in the locker room? Patrick Ewing. So Pat's the guy, and Pat worked his butt off. You know, he's there early, he's there late. And so if you come in there, how are you going to work less than Pat? Right. You're not. Yeah. And so he helped reaffirm. And you saw that, and a lot of times in the NBA, a coach will be as successful as their relationship with their key player. Like for Pat Riley, Magic Johnson set the tone, along with Kareem, but it was Magic. And with Phil Jackson, with Michael there. How are you going to not work, or how are you not going to be competitive with Michael Jordan setting the tone? It's a lot of times how those lead players set the tone in the locker room. and it goes down the line. Well, you know, there's that saying that you rise up to the expectations, right? It's like if there's not much expected of you, a lot of people aren't going to perform. But if all of a sudden I expect you to be here, that's what it takes. So it's like when you're saying like as being governor, the expectations, 50 is not okay. So what are we doing? The expectation is being number one, right? What does a number one state for education do? Well, yes, exactly. And these numbers have consequences. When you talk about fourth grade literacy, it's a key point because that's basically, there comes a point where you need to be able to read to keep going forward, that you're going to get behind, you're not going to, you're four times as likely to drop out or not graduate if you're not reading by fourth grade. You're 70% likelihood of being incarcerated. It's just the numbers are real. And there's a saying that I think it was President Bush put in the bigotry of low expectations. It's like low expectations don't help anybody. And you see it with graduation here in Oregon. Yes, our graduation rates are starting to go up, but we've lowered the bar. And so when 40% of your kids who graduate need remedial classes when they get out to graduate from our high school, That's not a success. No. It's not a success by lowering the bar and saying we're doing better now. I remember I had a seal on Eddie Gallagher, and he said that I think Obama wanted 500 more Navy SEALs. So they lowered the threshold for what it means to pass the badge or whatever it was. He's like, that's not making more SEALs. No. No. That's like making more people who couldn't make it, all of a sudden they are SEALs. And with the SEALs... That doesn't help. No, no, no. And we have friends who are... And then you are putting that person, that graduate, at harm's way when things come because they weren't ready for it. And it's the same thing we're talking about. You graduate from high school and now you need remedial... And by the way, you have to pay for those remedial classes when you get out of high school and going into college. And it's not, no, we cannot have low expectations. And I think like, you know, the dollar is lessening a little bit because of inflation and things like this. But then also if you're not prepared to get to work because you can't read, then you're in this limbo and you're just losing more and more ground. The people who have that education, they're like, you're not catching up. It's a whole Kobe thing. It's like now we're so far behind. When are we ever catching up? And it's like then people don't have hope. So people without hope, that's a terrible place. It is. I was thinking about this as we were talking. You mentioned Trump earlier. Ken, do you need, as a Republican candidate, do you need Trump's support to win? No, I don't think you do. I don't think in Oregon you do. I mean, I think you want, I mean, obviously you want, if a president will support you and you take it. You take it. You absolutely do. But I think for me, I'm focused on Oregon. And the less we're talking about national, the less we're driving people into their corners politically, the better for me. Because I want to bring people together and be able to focus. And it's just hard where we get so polarized. It makes it a difficult situation. Yeah. I'll tell you. I remember, like I said, my family. I've got extended family through marriage, you know, across the board. Yeah. And told one family member, one grandparent on one side, hey, you know, maybe Little S. MSNBC because it's really riling you up. And then my other one, Little S. Fox, because it's riling you up and it's making you guys. And unfortunately, a lot of this, the fear, anger are a drug. Yeah. And we're being fed that constantly. And it's like, hey, you're both great people. And you both want the same things. You want good for everything. Let's put, you know, let it know when it's kind of getting you too ramped up. And let's get back and focus on good. And I think we need to, as a society, get back to that. Yeah. It's the tribalism that doesn't help anybody. No, and the hate. You know, it just gets too far too quick. and we need to be really, really careful of that. And that's where I feel blessed growing up that my mom talked to me. She told me about, don't judge another man until you've walked a mile in his shoes. Let's be careful. And as a coach, I remember this. I remember when I was coaching high school, and there was a kid who had come in and transferred. I knew he came from a little bit of a tougher background and he had a rough practice and he was disruptive in practice and we either had to throw him out or put him to the side or whatever and then i found out later you know his dad had been drinking and things had blown up that afternoon and before he came to practice okay and so sometimes you yeah you got to know what's going on and know you're we're human you are human now it doesn't mean you can mess up practice it doesn't mean you can be disrespectful to anybody else and there's consequences but let's you know yeah like on the podcast i have it seems like a lot of the ultra running girls are liberal like left-leaning type which i don't even i don't get yeah i like running with them they're cool yep but people because of this tribalism i talk about like a girl i just had on rachel i think she somebody made a big deal she's got pronouns in her bio and i'm like i don't So what? Whatever. I don't get it. It seems silly to me. I don't care. I don't care. She's an amazing person. But when we're focused on stuff like that that doesn't matter, it's like, I don't care how you vote. I don't care if you want to put a pronoun in your bio. Do whatever you want. Are you a good person? Yes. You're a good person? Yeah. And that's good with me. Do you treat others with respect? That's it. It's just like we can all learn from each other. I don't care whether you're Republican, Democrat, liberal. It doesn't matter. It's like, can I learn from you? And I can learn from anybody. I can learn either how I don't want to be or I can take lessons that you've like, wow, that's – I mean, Rachel taught me a lot. She's been through a lot. And if you're willing and open, you can learn from, as I said, anyone. But, yeah, I just – when people focus on stuff like that, it's just – it's pretty frustrating. But that's kind of the culture of today. We have to find something to tear somebody down with, it seems like, instead of, hey, can we get better together? Can we get better, and can we actually focus on the issues that are really pressing? So on issues, do you differentiate from the Republican Party on any key issues? or can you think of anything that you would side differently on that the party sticks to? You know, I'd have to think about that, and I don't know. You know, I'd have to think about that. You know, we're particulars. I mean, I think maybe, you know, when I think about why I'm a Republican, Growing up, it was Abraham Lincoln, and then my generation, dating myself here, but I was in high school when Reagan came into office, and it was the shining hill and his optimism. They called him the happy warrior, and just how he pressed forward and had a vision for the country, and that was a huge impact. I think as far as with the party, maybe it's not. I don't get as caught up like the issues you were talking about on the sides. I don't want to focus on the side stuff. I want to focus on the, it's kind of the, you know, a lot of times, like you with Rachel, you might agree on 70% of the stuff and maybe not 30%. Why don't we focus on the 70% where we can get the important stuff or at least work together and not get so divisive on the stuff that to me is not quite as important. And I think that's, I get tired on both sides of the politics or something goes wrong and everybody's sprinting to the microphone to weigh in where they have no idea what just happened. And they're just trying to get their points out and just inflaming, getting everybody riled up and saying, let's calm down. Well, and normally when you had that common ground on the 70%, you can address a 30% more civilly and discuss it. and you have this relationship because you're like, oh, yeah, we agree on, oh, what about this stuff? Could we talk about this? And it's just better than going in. And right now, the political landscape especially is you go in both guns a-blazing and try to tear them down instead of like the olive branch type thing, like, hey, how can we work together? Well, we talk about it. If you're trying to win a debate and you're talking about policies, trying to win somebody over, you don't weed by, hey, you're an idiot. Here's why we should do that. As soon as you insult, it doesn't work. And so I think you lead by saying, hey, we've got a real issue here. And can we both agree that Oregon shouldn't be 47th in job creation, for example? Or can we both agree that we shouldn't be number one in addiction? Now let's look at how now, and you have to win this over, but let's look at what's working and what's not working. And before we put the DER, you know, it's kind of look at what the solutions are and try to work together. And can we both agree that these things are incredibly important? It's, you know, Portland's coming to that realization right now where they're in an economic, potentially economic, they call it economic death spiral, where you've had the big office buildings because of what's been going on. They're selling for pennies on the dollar. And it was a little bit, it was an eye-opener for me when a city counselor goes, oh, that's great, because now the rent is going to be pennies on the dollar. Well, yeah, first of all, kind of forgetting that somebody just lost $300 million, you know, and probably will never invest in Portland again. Right. But second of all was that, and they didn't realize this at first and needed to, you know, be brought up speed, is your revenues are now going to be pennies on the dollar. Right. Your taxes are going to be pennies on the dollar. And actually, it gets worse than that because all the buildings around that building are now going to get re-appraised. And so you're not going to have the money for the services that we need and the services you want. And you start and say, so this doesn't work. And so it's kind of starting there and saying, you can't have, there's things I know you want to accomplish, but you're not going to have the money unless we have a thriving business. We have people working downtown. And so how do we get there? And then it's, well, we've got to make people comfortable that they're going to be safe when they walk downtown. Then we've got to look at what's happening with homeless, with drug addiction. What we're doing is not working because we keep throwing more and more money at it, and yet the amount of homeless keeps going up. How do we address that? What are the different areas? So, you know, whether it's addiction, mental, treating mental illness, housing, or a hand up, not a hand out, as in far as helping somebody get a job and those sort of things. Yeah, it's, you know, Portland, I mean, if we did a big road trip from down here and go to Portland, that was fun. Yes. You know, I mean, Portland was cool. You could walk around. Nike was down there on 5th or whatever it was. Sure. A bunch of cool, like I went there recently. Most of those buildings are vacant. Yes. And it's like, what is going on? Yes. And then we talk about making affordable housing. Well, we got, you know, huge buildings vacant. And it's like it just seems if you can't look at that and say whatever we're doing is failing, then I don't know what metric you're using. Well, and that's that gives me encourage. I mean, it's terrible that we've gotten to this point, but it gets me encouraging encouragement when, again, I haven't heard anybody. And I'm in Portland a fair amount in that area, say, and Democratic friends, liberal, whatever, say it's working. And I think there is, for the most part, and obviously not 100%, but for the most part, there's openness to, hey, we've got to change what we're doing, and we've got to do it quickly. Yeah, it's a good example of you can make a difference. I mean, when I think of, I mentioned Rogan earlier just when we were off record. But he was telling me he was going to buy this comedy store down there, build a comedy store down in Austin. And so he said, go check it out. we were down there with my family. So we went and it's like, there is smelled like just piss. It was boarded up, smelled terrible. I'm like, God, this, you're going to make this something cool. And he did. And it changed the whole block. You know what I mean? Now you go down there, that stretch in Austin where the comedy mothership is, is vibrant and just people everywhere, businesses, people enjoying the night out. And it's like that, as I said, I walked by there, smelled like urine. Yes. And there was nobody there. So you can change things. You can. Portland can come back and be a beautiful destination again. Well, you've seen it. I've seen it. And even just walking around, I don't know, last week or the week before, you get a sunny day, you're going to, man, this place is awesome. Oh, it's beautiful. You know, it's a beautiful city. But then you get confronted with seeing different. Anyway, we've got to change it. One of the hardest parts of hunting is glassing big country to find animals you know are there. That's why I run Sig Sauer Zulu Imaging Stabilizing Binoculars when I'm covering a lot of ground and need to see everything. These binos are a complete game changer. After long climbs, when your heart rate's up and your hands aren't steady, shaky glass makes it hard to stay locked in. With image stabilization, everything settles down. You can slow the process, really pick apart the country, and catch movement you'd normally miss. 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They fix them up and lease them up. And he had texted me and said, you know, we've looked at four possible buildings in Portland in the last two years, and we've passed on all of them. and he said it's not the condition of the streets now because these buildings are selling at a huge discount, pennies on the dollar. He said, I just don't see a will to change. And so if you have a will to change, if you show that we're going in the right direction, that we're actually going to change, I think you can get people to come back in and investors to come back in and say, no, we can make this great again. but but you have to have that will to change yeah no it's true it's a and and i think we're in the you know there's another analogy where if you see an abandoned house somebody breaks out a window you don't fix it all the windows are going to be broken yeah right you have to address that stuff you can't just let it keep going because no it's there is no end everything's gonna be on fire and there'll be nothing there well and it's brutal for i've talked to business owners down it's brutal Because they're paying the highest tax rates in the country next to Manhattan. Yeah. I didn't realize that. Yes. In Portland? Yes, in Portland. But they're also having to pay, their insurance rates are skyrocketing because of crime, because of vandalism. They're having to pay to remove graffiti from their properties. Some of them are paying for extra security. And it's just not, you have to change that environment. Yeah. And there are signs of it's getting gradually. It's getting better. It's definitely better than it was two years ago. But it still has a long way to go. And you just have to say that you know we going to get this to the place that it should be How do as a candidate for governor this seems like a big challenge How do you appeal to the voters of Portland and also the rural voters without losing either? Because it seems like the Democratic candidates, they go for the big numbers, right? And they don't really give much attention to the guys out there working every day, rural, the construction, the farmers, the people. They're focused on the voters in the city. So how do you reach both and resonate with both? Yeah, well, I think it's having messages that both can connect to, and that's why I'm focused on those key issues, like I said, education, the economy, livability, safety, affordability. I think it's having, one, it can tell if you're authentic or not, if you care, and I think that's something that you have to be able to connect, whether you're in eastern Oregon, southern Oregon, central Oregon, or Portland. They have to know that you care about them. That one's very important. And then you have to know that you're going to focus on those key issues and not get, like we were talking about earlier, not get overly wrapped up and lose sight of your goal because of a pronoun or because of pick your other divisive issue. And I think that's too often what happens, and you have to be able to say, forget that stuff. I'm focused on these core issues that impact every family in Oregon. And so I think it's both. It's so much of the state, and I loved it. When I ran the first, I said one of the first things I said is I'm going to visit each of the 36 counties. And so much when I lost in that heartbreak, double overtime loss by 20,000 votes, what I felt bad for. I didn't feel bad for me, but I felt bad for the areas that I mean, obviously I wanted to win. So but I felt bad for the areas that are felt so unheard and underrepresented because so often today's government, they just cater to the loudest, usually, the loudest, to the most populated areas, and the rest of the state feels left out. And so I think it's really connecting across the state, and I think it's very, very important that everybody feel a part of it, that the government's representing everybody. Yeah, that's, I mean, I feel like you're a very authentic person. I feel like, you know, when you talk to some, I keep saying politician. I don't look at you as a politician, but when you talk to them, they're like so smooth. And I'm not saying you're not, but it's just like you feel like, am I buying a car? It's like what is like I'm getting ready to hear like, what do I have to do to get you to take this car home today? It's like almost right there. And with you, it's like you see you've had your experience is so varied. It's all these different settings, but you seem like so genuine and believable. So I think that's a huge part because nobody wants to have some snake oil salesman just telling them what they want to hear and then nothing happens. No, and one thing I've done, it's just who I am. If I'm talking to somebody in eastern Oregon or Portland, my message isn't, I mean, we might be more focused on certain issues in different places because that's just the reality of those areas. but I'm not going to change who I am in one area versus the other. And I think the thing that drives people crazy is when a candidate is one way during the primary and then they switch during the day. I am who I am. I'm running on this message. I'm running consistent all the way through, and I think that's important. And either you want that or, you know, I mean, hopefully you do, and it resonates. And I think it does. I think there is a thirst right now on both sides for someone who can help bring us more together, where we can actually function. And right now the state government is so non-functional. It's such a disaster on so many different levels. We just saw it with this gas tax initiative and just how that, what a disaster that was. but there's been such a lack of leadership and a lack of being able to bring, at least being able to, you know, I can agree on everything, but at least be able to talk to each other. Yeah, definitely. I mean, common ground. So, like, when we talk about, we talk about rule and different things, but how do you balance environmental protections with logging, farming, those agricultural things? So, because as we said, we care about that probably more than anybody, but there still is a balance. Yeah, no, there is. There is. And timber, as you know, is a huge issue here. And I think I would make the argument that, and I don't know how anybody would counter it, that what we've been doing is not working, right? I mean, we really got behind on managing our forests with all the lawsuits and the spotted owl and everything that happened there and really shut us down. and I think that was seen as being good environmentally, but in reality it wasn't because not managing made it catastrophic forest fires. And we're seeing that. And the analogy I'll use for friends who are, you know, we live in sisters, we live in timber country, who aren't out there is this. if you left your lawn and didn't cut it, didn't do anything to it for 40 years, what do you think it would look like, and would that be a fire hazard? And the obvious answer is yes. You need to manage it. We need to take care of wherever it is. We need to take care of it. Otherwise, nature will take care of it for us, and we're not going to like that, especially as we've moved with houses deeper into areas that we weren't before. so we've we really have to get ahead of it and we have to do prevention because we can't keep dealing with the with the outcomes yeah i think the messaging is the key because if you explain it if you're in the actual in the timber in the woods in the mountains and you explain like hey here's fuel if this comes through here if a fire comes through here this whole thing's going up and just explaining what it means to maybe selectively log to a timber management program to mitigate some of those. These fires are burning hotter and faster than they've ever burned because there has been no management, because they've been like, oh, the environmentalists, they're going to chain themselves to a tree, no logging. It's like, oh, my God, okay, we won't do anything. How about that? Are you going to be happy? Then they're happy until it all burns up. Yeah, and then my wife always, she would laugh about that, that the person who's protesting is sitting on a wooden chair playing a wooden guitar. Yeah, it's nuts. it's nuts um so when we talked about that the so i think with the timber management that's the messaging that's where it takes maybe you standing in in the trees and saying here's what we're going to do but um where do you like tell me your plan to get your message out i mean i think you mentioned it early on in this podcast where uh it's you know the landscape has changed a little bit how do you reach people podcasts are you know uh trump did a good job the last time's probably why he won the election is hitting the podcast circuit because that's where people are listening. They're not watching. They don't trust the news. Some of the older people still watch Fox and MSN, as you said. Most of the younger voters, younger people are podcasts, social media. So what's your plan on reaching voters and how do you get it? Where's this going? I think it's got to be all of the above, but I do think it's definitely paying attention to social media, podcasts, and you'll still have conventional media. There are certain places that are, some places are more social and podcasts. Some are more, you know, still do the satellite, whatever. So it's a combination. And then it's getting, you've got to get out and you've got to travel the state. You've got to meet people, spread the word. You get volunteers and just get that word out there. I think one thing that the president did a good job of, and Madami did a good job, completely different politically, but did a good job with their social media. It was making it fun and allowing their personality to come out. I think that's important. I didn't notice. What did Madami do? He did a good job of just being out there, talking to business owners, using more videos. And I think that's to resonate and to be people want to be heard. Yeah. And I think you got you need to get out there, connect, interact. Too often, I think, with with politicians or people running for office, it's just preaching and telling telling everybody else what you're going to do. I think that's part of it. We also have to be able to listen. and people want to know that they're hurt and that the issues affecting their family, you're listening to it and you're concerned about it and you want to help them. Yeah. No, I, yeah. I mean, I think getting out there, looking people in the eye, shaking their hand, that is huge. It is. It is. Did you get to all 36 counties in the state? I did. Last time? I did. Yeah. I don't know. Does that, that doesn't seem like it probably happens very often. No, I don't think it does. I never heard of that goal, but I like that. Yeah, no, it was something I was proud of, and frankly, I enjoyed. We have a beautiful state, as we talked about earlier, and so I enjoyed the process. Yeah, no, it's a, okay, now I'm going to go to, I never do questions, but since this is so important, I'm like, I don't want to forget a question I should have asked. So I actually have questions, which don't, I've always tried to be like Rogan, he never has any questions. It's like off the top of his head, and I'm like, well, I'm not smart, so that's the problem. I can't remember anything. That's another question. So anyway, I jotted down some questions. This is like, why is Oregon becoming unaffordable for middle-class families? What would you cut, freezer reform in the state budget specifically? Well, I think there's a number of things for that. One, we have to have more jobs that pay more. We have to have good jobs. And when you're having jobs leave, that becomes a problem. I think our tax rates are too high. One thing that's overlooked is that for talked about for high income, especially in Portland, we have the second highest tax rate in the country, second to Manhattan, second to New York City. But what's overlooked is we have the highest personal income tax rate in the country for people for working class, basically going up to $120,000. and it's the highest in the country. And that's something that I think I would want to pull that back immediately. I think people need relief, and they need relief as soon as possible. And then I think you look at it and you say, let's put everything on the table. So often taxes or regulations are passed, and kind of with the expectations that they'll eventually sunset, or at least that's how they're sold, that we need to look at everything and reexamine what we're doing and look at what has, you know, certain taxes. There is a benefit for certain things because for the services we want. But we also have to make sure that we're not just throwing money at where they're ineffective and reduce those taxes that have the worst impact, especially with the affordability. And there's a lot of different layers to the affordability. Insurance costs are going up. Housing costs are going up. gas taxes are going up. There's a number of layers that we have to look at. Why are we the most taxed? Why is that? Well, I think it's a big reason is that we've just been under one form of leadership for a long time, and it feels like every time the answer for every problem is more money, more taxes. And I think that's where I said leadership is about the empathy and the accountability. The empathy is, all right, we want to address those areas. But you've got to be, is this effective? And what's the risk-reward of this tax? What are the downsides of increasing these taxes? I don't think that's been looked at enough. And we need to audit departments that have gone up doubled in size. Are they doing twice the work or have they just gotten bloated? We have to put those audits in place and really examine, as you would any business. You would at least every so often look at them and say, is this effective? Are we doing what we're supposed to be doing? You learned that at Yale, didn't you? Yeah, exactly. You know, and I do, when I think about that, like decisions that have these long-term impacts, when you think about the spotted owl, as you mentioned earlier, that devastated our small logging communities. You know, I hunt down outside of Coos Bay in Powers, Oregon, and that was a vibrant town with mills. people who are working. And people who work in the woods or work in the mill, that's like a specific skill set. They're hard workers. They will do what they're told. They're going to show up. They're going to do it right. They're going to work hard. And when you take that opportunity away because you closed the mill because now you say, well, we can't harvest old growth anymore. It's not even, you know, I understand. We don't want to cut down 400-year-old trees, but there's a lot of logging that can be done. But when you take that livelihood making opportunity away from people who they're just basically best at working hard, what are they supposed to do? They're not going to an office and doing spreadsheets. They want to either be in the woods or they want to work physically because that's just what they enjoy and that's what they're good at. When that opportunity is gone because these spotted out environmental restrictions, then what are they supposed to – what happens? The town, there's meth there. There's drug problems there. People lose hope. As we talked, I mentioned hope earlier. And you've got to give people a chance to succeed, an opportunity to succeed. And we took that away. Right. No, and it gets compounded by a lot of times these counties, maybe 50%, 60%, 70% federal lands. So if they're not having the timber, they're not able to generate revenue from 70% of their county, so they don't have the money. And so that's a real problem as well. And so I think we have to look at different ways that we can either allow more of the working land, or we have to look at other avenues, other things that rural Oregon and, frankly, the country, how do we help people with their career paths now and it's it's an issue how do we help our our young men and women coming up who want to live in that area we have to have jobs i mean there's there's places that are uh certain i was just in prineville yesterday and they they're they're doing good things there um and like what give an example well i just think of The sense of community that is there, the sense of supporting each other's businesses. That's the beauty of a small town. It is. It is. That's what people lose or don't understand from big cities is the community aspect of small town living. It's like I'm from a small town, and we knew what was going on. We cared. Here, it's so easy just to lock your door in town, lock your door, close your shades, whatever. You're on your own. In small towns, it's different. No, it is. And I was talking to, I'm trying to remember, I think he had a hardware store or something. And he was saying, I intentionally get everything I need from Prineville because I want to support the businesses around me. I don't go to the Costco in Bend. I don't go to, you know, it's like I'm getting, I'm shopping local. And I think that's, like you said, that's the beauty of that small town that has that, they have each other's back. And that's so important. Yeah, and I think there's some residual from being devastated basically by COVID because it just killed small businesses. Restaurants had to close down. Nobody cared about that they couldn't pay their bills. They couldn't have customers. All these mom and pop hardware stores, go to Walmart or go to Costco or whatever. And so it killed so many people who had worked their whole lives to build something. It was such a tragedy. Then you wonder, was that intentional? And then that drives you crazy. Yeah, I know. Because you're like, what is going on with our country? And you have to be careful when you have the big, whether it's the Walmart or the, you have to be really careful when the towns or the counties or the areas lose their character or lose their belief that the person can open a store and succeed. And it's not just all the national brands. And that can be a problem. Yeah. It's, I know, so there's a kind of a balancing act because I've worked in construction. You know, I was the superintendent over at the Water and Power Company for a long time. And I'm working with guys, basically. Guys like that I worked with, they like strong leaders, right? That's one reason why Trump resonated a lot with young men. Because he came in, he didn't care about polishing up what he was saying. He was going to say, so there's something. And there's something powerful about that, but there's also a negative to it. So how do you balance the messaging on being a strong leader and being also diplomatic? Well, I think it's having core convictions, sticking to those. And I think it's leading by example as well sometimes. And everybody has your own styles, right? You have to be you. You can't try to say, oh, that wouldn't work for him or this wouldn't work for her. We've seen people try that. People try that. You've got to be you. And so for me, it's your strength in conviction, strength in who you are. When the time comes, you're going to stand up to whatever it is, or you're going to meet the challenge. How are you going to respond? And people see that. But it doesn't mean you have to yell at all. You can see some of the best coaches sometimes, they're not necessarily yelling all the time, but they're prepared. Their teams are tough. They're tough. Same with players, different personalities. There's certain people that are kind of rah-rah, but then there's other guys you go, you don't want to cross him. Yeah. You know, you know, so it's it's be who you are, but be be tough, be strong in your convictions and show that you're not going to back down when something goes against those convictions, I think is important. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I don't know. I want to think about like I was thinking about the NBA when you were saying that like LeBron's been such a big figure, but it's like his coach. it's like it's he's tough on coaches yeah it's like yeah wherever he goes like i'm sure reddick isn't gonna last long probably or maybe lebron's gonna be gone but like yeah finding finding the right leader is tough it is it is and and yeah it can be and it's like i said in the nba it's all but you that who was the best coach you had i had some great coaches so um i'm gonna hedge this a little bit because I had some really good coaches from Jeff Van Gundy, Lenny Wilkins Hall of Fame, Bill Fitch, Hall of Fame. I had Rick Adelman, Hall of Fame, if he's not already, Mo Cheeks, P.J. Carlissimo. I only had him for one year. I really liked Chuck Daly. Chuck Daly. Where was that at? That was in New Jersey. He had won back-to-back championships for the bad boys in Detroit. And what I liked about Chuck was that you really got the sense that what you did on the court mattered. He wasn't caught up in all the other stuff. What's going on with the contracts or the agents complaining. It's like, no, we're all about winning. And you believe that in him. He walked the walk. He walked the walk. But Rick was an unbelievable coach, too, Rick Otteman. He seemed more like subdued, though, not fiery. But, again, it's, you know, I'll give you a side segue here a little bit. I was up in Central Oregon. Actually, the person I was with, she's an assistant basketball coach up there, and her family had bobcats living in their house. But, anyway, that's a whole other story. That's kind of cool. That's a personality. Yeah. But I was asking her, we were talking about coaching, and in today's world the kids have so many different options. They're being recruited by other high schools, AAU, they're jumping from team to team to team. And we were talking about it, and she said her star player, she asked her star player, which coach, who's been your best coach? And she said, the coach I'm with is really a hardliner. He's tough on him. And so I really didn't think she was going to say him because she played for a couple other coaches, you know, in AU and they're always recruiting and it's a little whatever. And she said, actually, it's our coach. And she said, why is that? I'm surprised. He's really tough. And she said, because I know he cares and he wants me to be better. Yeah. And even though he was demanding and he was tough, you can be demanding and tough when they know you care and you're doing it for them. Right. Yeah. And be consistent. And be consistent. Because I think, yeah, people, if you're just tough and then all of a sudden you're over here doing something that contradicts being tough. Or if it seems like you're getting enjoyment making them run. Yeah, no. So, yeah, that's interesting. I do, as again, as we talked about with kids, they want discipline. They're happier when people, because usually when you're disciplined, it means somebody cared about something, right? Yeah, yeah. I got a question for you, too. Oh, boy. Before we're done. You can keep going. No, do it, do it. No, it's, and knowing a little bit of your history and something you heard, it's been a, I've thought about this. And it was where you said to succeed, you have to find your passion. And I've always felt like that too. And, you know, my passion was playing in the NBA, was basketball. And I wasn't that good growing up. I was a late bloomer. I didn't share that with anybody because that would have got laughed at. I didn't make varsity until my senior year. I came down with type 1 diabetes my sophomore year. So I was a long, long shot. But that was my passion. It drove me. And I worked hard. I felt like I worked harder than anybody I knew. But someone else told me, they said, no, I mean, yes, to succeed, it's helpful if it's your passion. But really, you've got to find what you're good at. That if you can be passionate about something but if you not any good at it it not going to succeed right and so i you know that kind of gave me a little little pause you know it was like oh maybe there is a point i was just wanting to get your your perspective because obviously i ended up and ended up growing and yeah and so i did have natural uh god-given talents that helped me with basketball and and and but that passion i think i wouldn't have made it if i didn't have that passion. Yeah, your passion wasn't being a horse jockey. Yes, exactly. And so, yeah. So I was kind of wondering if it's, do they go hand in hand or how do you, you know, which, which, is it that when you find something that you're, that triggers your path? I don't know. And so I was just kind of curious your take on that. Yeah, it's hard to say. It's a, you know, my son is kind of involved in this a little bit because I always told him running was his gift. He hated running. Right. I'm like, whatever my hate it, but it's what you're good at. So then finally, now he's like, now he wants to make the Olympic trials in the marathon. And, um, but then part of it to me at, you know, we were talking, I had him on the podcast not long ago and I'm like, he's like, do you think I can do it? I'm like, I don't know. I mean, cause you can want to do it as bad as anybody. You can work your ass off, work harder than anybody. If you don't have this level of talent right to, to run this time. Yeah. To your point. Yeah. What are you going to do? Right. So I changed my mind after we went and we ran on the track and I'm like, okay, I think you can do it. You were just flying really easily. And, uh, but yeah, I mean that, that does make perfect sense is I think they have to, there has to be something in both. Right. I mean, you're, you're never going to succeed if it's not your passion, but if you don't have that talent and and how do we and we're talking about this and you you were mentioning rural oregon or anywhere in oregon it's it's probably as you know this the anxious generation that some the kids are struggling in a lot of different ways they're trying to find their path and for you i know with your story you bow hunting being introduced by your friend took you away from probably not a good path to discipline to go there. How do we help people? I mean, is that just, how do you, and I think about this as, you know, from government or schools, I mean, how do we help people find that path, find that passion? You know, it's something that kind of I think about a lot, and how do you, because how do we help people? Yeah. Well, I have a big advantage over you because I look like I have no physical whatever gifts. You're 6'11 or 7 foot. How tall are you? 6'11. Yeah. So you can't really control your height, right? Either you have it or you don't. With me, my story, I think, has given people like me hope. Because if you looked at the broken home, the alcoholism, the small town, I wasn't great at really anything. and still though I had this drive so it's like I think the message is that and what I've tried to explain in my books that it doesn't really matter what it is you can I rode bow hunting to this opportunity to talk to you and I had drive also is drive are you born with drive or can it be or can it be you know I don't know you know I don't always know why I had it I mean I always had a chip on my shoulder I was always like I I wanted to beat that. So when did you get your opportunity? Like you said you were a late bloomer, the diabetes. When did people start to say, hey, this guy can actually ball? When did that happen? So I went. By my senior year in high school, I was pretty good. Okay. And when did you go to high school? I was down in San Diego, Torrey Pines High School. and I went then I was recruited and got good advice which was go to the school with the best academic school because in case it doesn't work and I was like okay but I'm still going for the MBA but Was it a scholarship or were you good at school? Financial aid. It was kind of you don't actually get a athletic scholarship but you get in or you get help to get in by being excelling in a certain area And so it helped me to get it. I mean, obviously, you have to qualify and all that. But so I went there, and then by the end of my freshman year, I was starting. And it was really, I think it was my freshman year or sophomore year. One of our players was from North Carolina, from Chapel Hill. And I'd go down and work basketball camps with him at Dean Smith, North Carolina. And Michael Jordan was down there, Brad Doherty, Larry Nance. I mean, Brad Doherty, Perkins. It was some of the best pick-up ball in the world. Wow. And I was playing there, and I'm going against Brad Doherty, who I played with later. But he was going to be the number one pick in the draft. And I'm not going to say I was dominating, but I was holding my own. Okay. And so it was at that point, yes, it was at that point that I said, I'm going to be able to play either in Europe or in the NBA. And that was after your freshman season? I think it might have been my freshman. It was either freshman or sophomore. What were your numbers like as a freshman? I don't remember. Five, six points, maybe. And then did you stay at Yale the whole time? Four years. I was all league my last three years. Oh, gotcha. So I got really good. By my sophomore year, I was good. Okay. And you got that opportunity to ball out with some of the best? With the best. And I was working hard. And part of it, I was super, you know, you're kind of growing your body. and I'd put on weight. I'd gotten strong. I'm in the weight room all the time. I'm working out, and it finally started to kind of quick. Was that on your own? Yeah, a lot of it. Yeah. A lot of it. I mean, back then, it wasn't quite the, you didn't have all the help and the trainers. Yeah. I mean, it's incredible now with, I see the kids that I would, everybody's got a trainer, everybody's got this, everybody's. Back then, it was kind of, I was doing in high school, I remember looking online, somehow I got connected to Russian plyometrics. And so I'm out on the track by myself, you know, doing box jumps, doing all this stuff. I've seen that old footage of what the Russians did. Yes. Freaking intense. Intense. And it was like, oh, this is cool. You know, and then I'm jumping rope all the time because you had to get, you know, just had to get quicker. So you outworked everybody. So I outworked everybody. And it just, but it doesn't always happen the next day. No, no, no. Sometimes that work pays. Yeah. That work pays off over time, and it all started quick, and then my body caught up, and so by my sophomore year, I was good. Did anybody tell you you were wasting your time? I mean, do you have people, you said you had a chip on your shoulder. Yeah, yeah. What do you remember about that chip? Oh, just people saying, you're never going to, you know, what are you doing? You're never going to be that good. You're, you know, whatever. Or it was, I would always, I know the kid that was getting recruited by everybody that was all, I just wanted to kick his butt. Yeah. I just wanted to, you know, it's kind of like when you play, it's like the first, or if you go against him, it's like early on you test him and you just put a bow in his chest and see how he responds. Yeah. And then it's, you know, you kind of know where you're at. And so it was just driven by that wanting to succeed and just a passion. You know, it's like, I love this. I'm going to be better, and I'm going to outwork you. And I'm going to outwork you, and I'm going to get better. Now, you do get to a certain point where I got to the NBA, and I'm like, well, I can work all I want. I'm probably not going to be able to do what he does. Yeah, yeah. But it still doesn't stop you. No. And so that's fun. That's fun. Yeah, it sounds like you had a goal, and you just made it happen. I mean, yeah, you had some gifts. You had some God-given stuff, obviously height and things like that. But it sounds like you just had to overcome and just put in work, and it was a long game, and you stuck with it. Well, and I also don't know. I always believed in myself, and I don't know if that's why that was that way or not, but I always did. Where did this belief come from? That's what I'm at. I mean, because, you know, parents say, you can be with anything you want. You can be the president if you want. And they're just like, no, you can't. But where did that come from? You know, I don't know. I don't know if it was, you know, my grandfather was a pastor and his faith or maybe just inner belief or just being kind of believing that if you put in hard work, it'll pay off. And I think I also had the understanding that if this doesn't, if I don't get to the NBA, that's okay. That I'm going to give it everything I have and no regrets. And I'm going to enjoy the journey no matter what. You know, it's not as much always about the outcome as it is the journey and pushing yourself. And so I think for that, just having that patent really helped me because getting diabetes back then was a big deal in 1981. And I was the first player to play in the NBA with diabetes. Really? And there's only been two, and that was the first one. Who was the other one? Adam Morrison out of Gonzaga. Oh, yeah, yeah. Remember Adam? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was number two pick, I think, wasn't he? Maybe four, but he was a great player and a good guy. So having that belief, and, you know, I was a fourth-round pick. They don't even have four rounds anymore. You know, it was probably a 1% chance of being able to make it. I was the only one from my talent who made it, you know, and so on and so on and so on. But it's just having that belief. And you know what? I'm going for it. I'm going to give everything I have, and I know I can outwork you. I'm going to outwork those guys, and I'm going to make this. but I also think if it didn't work and I think those are great skills to have for life anyway yeah did uh you said you were going to enjoy the journey did you enjoy all of it did you enjoy I mean there's times you don't I mean uh certainly playing in the NBA can be tough at times where you're just on the road all the time and you know all those all those things but overall yeah I did I did. I really enjoyed it. I think I enjoyed the most is where you're putting in, you're working so hard, you're getting better, and you're seeing those jumps. That's fun. And then making it. I think at times at the end where it becomes a little bit more of the business side, and then your body starts, certain things start happening in your body or injuries, and then it becomes a little bit tougher. But I still, I'll tell you, every time I walked into that locker room and I saw my uniform on the chair, I was like, this is the greatest thing ever. You know, that's pretty. You never you never want to lose that sense of awe that. Yeah. Man, that's that's Larry Bird. That's Michael Jordan. You know, that's you know, it's it's pretty cool. What was your what's your highlight you think of when you think back on your career? What stands out? You know, I had games that were really good and different. But I think when I was in New York and we went to the NBA finals, that was pretty cool. And I was, Patrick Ewing had gotten hurt, so I was starting and going through and making it, winning, beating Indiana in the conference finals, and being on Madison Square Garden, having done that, that was cool. And then I loved my year with the Blazers. I mean, that's where coming in, literally fell in love with Oregon. There's such good teammates with Clyde Drexler, Jerome Kersey, Terry Porter, Buck Williams. Oh, man. Just great guys. And that was a lot. You know, when you retire, you miss the competitiveness and you miss the camaraderie. And it was going to battle with guys. And kind of going back to the politics. You learn you come from completely different backgrounds across the country. people coming from everywhere and you know it's pretty cool when you get that team where hey this is our common goal let's go for it everybody understands their roles and that that's special i think just you know being an athlete just gives you a different perspective on life you know and competition and that you know like i i've told my boys their whole life life is competition it is if you want to win you're going to have to get to work and do the best right and And it's like, so I think we learn valuable lessons that can, you know, show up in politics, maybe for you coming down the road or, you know, just your job. But, yeah, I think just being an athlete is such a benefit. Well, and I think, you know, it's kind of become a saint, you know, enjoy the grind. But I think there's a lot to that. And you can look at that, whether it's enjoy the grind or work for God, you know, in everything you do. when you enjoy that when you say hey this is pretty cool that i get to do this i enjoy traveling the state and meeting people i do and it's like i i don't want to be outworked i want to be everywhere i want to do everything and i i think that's you enjoy the process yeah no i like that um yeah i i did want to ask you about i didn't have sorry i took you off no no it's just it's That's a stupid one. It's Initiative Petition 28. Have you heard about this, right? Yeah, it's ridiculous. Also known as the People for the Elimination of Animal Cruelty Exemptions, Peace Act, would amend Oregon's animal cruelty status by removing many current exemptions that allow lawful animal use in things like farming, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, here's what's crazy is that it would make it a crime to intentionally injure or kill animals, even in contexts that are currently legal, like hunting, fishing. So what is up with that? Even ranching. I mean, we have up in Sisters. We have cattle during this. We're seasonal, but we have cattle. I think it's ridiculous. I mean, I always get pretty frustrated, not just with this, but like you get these big bills that pass and like all the stuff thrown in there, right? But how does this stuff even get momentum? I mean, I don't know. That one is so, I don't even know where to start on that one. I mean, it's just so ridiculous. And, you know, the thing that is frustrating, and I know you with what you do with hunting, and I've done a little bit of hunting, but nothing to write home about. But there's a sense of you appreciate what the animal gives you. And I always respected Native Americans for how they honored the animal. Right. And I think that's important. Yeah. I think it's, you know, I'm a believer you eat what you kill. Mm-hmm. You know, I don't think you just do it to do it. Yeah. Well. And I think that gets lost. And it's also, you know, obviously it's silly when it goes to ranching and chicken. I mean, what are we going to, you know. Yeah. You know, it doesn't make sense, but I think it's disrespectful to ranchers, to farmers, to hunters, and doesn't know where they come from. And it's also incumbent on those of us who do hunt to explain it and to do so honorably. And I think what's lost a lot of times with hunters is you want to take care of it as much or more than anybody else. You want to preserve it. You want it there for the next generation. You want to take care of it. What I've always said is hunters respect life more than a non-hunter does because we've seen, you know, we hunt, we kill, blood's on our hands literally, and we understand what it takes, that animal sacrifice for us to survive. whereas most people 97 percent of our country eat meat yeah they're not faced with that they're they're they trade a checkbook a credit card some money for a steak they don't know they're not connecting the dots that that's an animal that died right so at least hunters understand that connection and we value it and because of we've been involved in the circle of life and death We respect life and death more than somebody who's never done it. But in my opinion, this is another example of, I think, I don't know who they are, but whoever, but want to make us consumers eating like contrived, I don't know what meat, not real meat, but dependent and basically just a consumer that just relies on the government for everything. and it takes our self-sufficiency away. It takes our ability to provide for our families through hunting or fishing away or even through ranching with this bill. No, it's crazy. And I think one thing that COVID should have taught us is we can't, as a country, lose our self-sufficiency. We need to be able to provide for ourselves. We need to be able to, because what's going to happen if that went through? All right, so now you're importing from other places or, you know, it just doesn't make sense. And I think the more, I think it's, you know, I believe in, you know, outdoor school, training, going out in the wilderness or the woods for kids, just having a respect for nature. I think that's so important. and not just going to McDonald's and getting a Big Mac and having no idea where it came from. I think it's really important. Yeah. And as you said, when you go through and you go hunting, especially the way you do it, you have an even greater appreciation of those animals because of what they have to survive, what they have to do to live outside, to be in the open, and be able to go over some of the terrain that's just crazy terrain. They're amazing, and you have a great respect for them. Yeah. And, you know, Oregon is special in the remote places we have, the incredible animals we have here from deer, elk, bears, sheep, goats, everything. I mean, we've got it all. And it's so valuable. But we need to honor it, but honor it correctly, because these animals need to be managed, right? You can't just stop hunting. Yeah. Because when you stop, people always say like, oh, well, Mother Nature will balance itself out. It's going to be drastic swings one way or another, and it's not going to be great. Yeah. So with man involved, we can let biologists do their jobs. This takes away all that opportunity from doing it right, from Oregon Fish Game doing it right. But when we do it right, the animals thrive, right? Right. We thrive. Yeah. We get opportunity to grow as humans, to appreciate life and death, as I explained. But when you look at it now, they want to stop hunting and fishing. There's more deer, elk, bear, and turkeys now than there was 100 years ago. So our North American wildlife model, which includes hunting, is the best for the animals also. Habitat, animals, because you start taking away hunting, that's all the funding to take care of these animals, right, for fishing game. They rely on hunters' money. PETA's not given. they might give money one time to win an election, then they're gone. And these animals suffer. So it's, I mean, this is, it's a joke. I couldn't agree more. And I think the more you can advocate and say that, tell that story, and definitely I will be as well, I think it's important. And it's not just that people are going, you know, there is a system put in place to manage it. and that system has paid huge benefits. And we need to continue. Well, this initiative petition 28 would make it a criminal liability for pet owners. It's just like so nuts. So when voters see this, yes, we want to vote for Chris for sure for governor, but we want to get rid of this thing too. They're trying to get signatures. We need to shoot that down. Absolutely. I don't know how you sign it. Anyway, agreed. Well, Chris, I mean, it's been a great discussion. Do you have anything you'd like to close out with that we didn't cover? Well, just first of all, thank you for having me. I think one thing we talked about reaching out to a broad audience is that your vote does matter. It matters that you're registered to get registered for the primary, for the general election, that you vote and that there is a real opportunity. I think when I saw it in 2010 when I ran that Republicans were kind of down, well, my vote doesn't matter. We always, you know, we're going to lose. It's like, no, no, no. There's an opportunity here. Let's get to talk to your neighbors. It matters. It matters. And, you know, one thing, they're all going to have to listen when people get energized. And we need to get energized and say, this is not right, the way our state's going. Our state has so much going for it, so much going for it. There's no reason we should be in the place that we are. And as I've traveled the state and, as I said, talked to people across the political aisle, political spectrum, you know, two things emerge. One, the love of Oregon, that people really do care about their state. But two, that things aren't working and we need to change and do so now. And so I'd ask people to help join and let's get this done. Yeah, no, I agree. I did want to mention, because I said some people, sometimes the presidential election is decided by the time it gets out here. But I don't want anybody to take that to mean that our vote doesn't matter. Because as you said, it was so close with you last time. I mean, every vote for the governor for sure matters. Every vote on every state-related issue matters for all residents of Oregon. So, yes, get out there, vote. I mean, we know what works and what doesn't work that hasn't been working that great for the state, for the people that love Oregon. So I think it's time for a change. I mean, you know, I don't know what Tina's plans are, but her approval rating is pretty low right now. So people aren't happy. No, she's got like 65% disapproval or something. It was a huge number. And I think she's had 12 years from being in the Speaker of the House to the governor. And it's just not nothing has gotten better. And it's not going to change. It's not good. And that's why I'm pretty passionate that we need somebody from the outside who has executive experience, who has qualifications to be able to lead because this partisanship of just yelling at each other and kind of the bickering back and forth, but not focusing on the court. It's not working. we need to we need we've got serious issues yeah now the good news is that there are solutions um but we need someone who can focus on this yeah well i i mean i love this discussion i love what you stand for i love you know the platform you're running on and how the love you have for oregon and your families included it's pretty cool to see um it's just again it's a big honor to have you here to talk you know this isn't my this isn't my best topic I can talk about running or running I'm a little more comfortable but it's again it's a huge honor and I would you know I just I'm on your side yeah well I appreciate it Cameron thank you it's been an honor thank you very much