The Self-Deprecation of Anti-Hero

Welcome to the Swiftie and the Scholar, the podcast where we examine the lyrics, lore, and literary legacy of Taylor Swift. I am Angela McDowell the Swiftie. And I am Dr. Jerry Coates, the Scholar. Hello, Uncle Jerry. Hey, Angela. Happy 2026. Well, happy new year. Well, I guess actually one of our episodes did technically come out in 2026. But, oh, I guess, yeah. No, New Year's Day. We've taken a bit of a hiatus. Yeah. OK. How was your hiatus? I feel like I saw you more than normal. I know. Yeah, we played miniature golf. We did. That was fun. It was fun. I feel like it was fun for the first nine holes. Yeah, it was a little less fun the second nine holes. I was a little disengaged, but yeah, it's OK. So? So, oh, can I make a political statement now? OK, yes. I won't make any political statements. So I have been reading my Instagram. Oh, yes, yes. I have exactly one post. Yes. And I've been more fastidious about reading the comments that people put. And you know what? I am really amazed by the international quality of our podcast. I mean, I really am. Yeah, we have people all over. They're all over. They're like in Australia and New Zealand and Malaysia and Syria and Lebanon and Ivory Coast and, I mean, South Africa. Lots of Brazil. Lots of Brazil and Argentina. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I just, you know, in this in this often very chaotic world, I hope that you are all in safe places. Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, I do love to get message. Like, I mean, love the messages from everyone. But then sometimes there are people from places you would never think like Taylor had broken into even, you know, I'm like, wait, why are you here? But thank you for being here. Oh, and people from Denmark, which I am one quarter Danish. Are you? Did you know? Yeah, it's mostly this arm and part of my torso. Yeah, yeah, totally. But yeah, part of my family immigrated from Denmark in the 19 teens or 20s or so. So I love Denmark. Yeah. I've been to Copenhagen. There you have. Have you really? Yeah. I have not. I can't wait to visit my native country. I don't think I'm Danish, but. Oh, yeah. Well, I have had, I've eaten Danish. Yeah, delish. Yeah. OK. So hello, international folks. Yeah, also hilarious that on the Christmas to the damn season episode, you mentioned that you started an Instagram. We did not link it anywhere. You said the name one time. Yes. And then that episode came out and all of a sudden you had like 250 followers. And then now it's like 500 and something. That was a couple of days ago. I haven't checked again. But you're such a star. I have no content. I mean, it's like I'm completely vacuous. I don't know why people sign up, but I will try to put something up from time to time. And and I'm most appreciative. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I still, you know, I thought about I actually was going to change it before it got out there away from drunk, drunk, drunk, drunk, drunk. I think people like it. I know people say that they like it. So actually, I liked one person's comment that said I might use dots to go. Dr. Dot Uncle Dot, Jerry, you know, might be smart. It's not too late. You can still clarify, but I am kind of like and drunk. Leger, I did see like lots of comments. People like literally just calling you drunk. Do words. I mean, I don't drink that much. Diet Coke. Yeah, lots of Diet Coke. OK. Yes. Back to the podcast. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I kind of brought the next three songs up in the in the lineup for a specific reason. Taylor is officially nominated to be in the Songwriters Hall of Fame. OK. And to do so, you have to have 20 years of work. So she's eligible in 2026 because she her first album came out in 2006. And she submitted five songs. And at first glance, the five songs are like, why these five? But as I've thought about it longer, I do kind of think they make sense. We've already covered two of those songs. The other two are Love Story, which was like, you know, kind of her first like breakout hit country songwriting and then all too well, the 10 minute version. OK, which is a perfect song. So that one would go with that. I think it's a great. Yeah, that one makes sense to me. Love Story makes sense to me not because it's like this incredibly written song, but because of what it was at the time and how it's kind of lasted. And then the other three are anti hero blank space and the last great American dynasty. So that's a spoiler. I'm not going to be able to like, you know, have my fun and have the power over these people knowing what episodes going to drop next. But I did just want to talk about these and maybe we'll talk about them as a whole in like the third episode that we do. So then we have all five of them. But I do I do think they make sense. I do not think that these are like her best songs by any stretch. Peter. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think there are others, but I think this is a good. I think it tackles like different kinds of songwriting, which is why I think she chose them after I look at them a little more deeply and more, you know, as a whole. But today we're going to do we're going to cover anti hero. OK. And so you've already read through those three songs. I read all three of them. OK. So, you know, we can just all keep that in mind. But anti hero for today, a lot of people thought that this one would be after New Romantics, because you said that one of the themes was like embracing your anti hero, which blew my mind. And I do think she maybe does that on this song a little bit, but like kind of only the anti hero in her own head a little bit. So, yeah, let's get into it. OK. This from Midnights. Yeah. So first of all, I do want to I do want to answer a couple of you who who posted things on my Instagram said you'd like me to do this song or that song. And I don't pick the song. He's not in charge here. I am not in charge. I'm in charge here. I'm just a puppet. I just. All right, let's look at the song. So. You want to see how that looked, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can leave those comments for me. Yeah. So Angela picks all the songs. So I got these three in a package and I read, of course, I if you give it to me, I can't not read it. Right. Right. So I had to read all three of them through. And the last one, the Harkness poem, I was kind of interested in. It's like, all right, I mean, I knew about her just from my understanding of dance. But is it a great poem? Well, we'll talk about it. I don't have a great poem. It's a great song. Yeah, I've heard your prejudicial view. But antihero. First of all, you're talking to your uncle hero. When did that joke come to you? And how long have you been waiting to say? Just minutes ago. I thought we should get Leslie in here. She could be your antihero. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So an antihero. Yes. Is, you know, in the literary world, at least, is someone who, you know, is the protagonist, often the protagonist of a piece, but doesn't show traditional protagonist elements, often shows flawed elements. And nevertheless, tends to survive, prevail or triumph through those flaws. And I think the last time I gave examples of people like Clint Eastwood characters are flawed heroes. I mean, you know, clearly he's he's this kind of freewheeling, murderous guy. But somehow he's the protagonist of our piece or Huck Finn, you know, who's completely confused and he's going south down a river when he's supposed to be taking Jim north to freedom. You know, those are our traditional antiheroes. And I think that she characterizes herself in that role here. But this is a darkly humorous piece. Agreed. And I think if I knew more about psychology, I would want to spend more time on this piece because she uses humor and, you know, humor can be used a variety of different ways. It can be engaging, but it can also be used to cover over problems. And here she's revealing problems and often couches the revelation in in a sense of humor. Yeah. And I wonder what's going on inside her head that she doesn't even acknowledge or realize or understand. Interesting. Yeah. But but since I'm not a psychologist, I'll leave that out there for you guys who are. If you are a psychologist, I'll just get in touch. Throw it out there and say, yep, I acknowledge that it is. So I mean, obviously, the first thing that I noticed when I'm reading through my first read through, I look for rhyme and rhythmic patterns and things like that. And there's clearly a consistent rhyme scheme. I mean, wiser afternoons, people, room. So you've got a B, C, B, right. So you've got this quatrain rhyme. You have the same kind of thing rolling in the in the pre-chorus devices, crisis time, dreaming, leaving, scheming time, you know, so DDD, E, FFE, FFE. And this this remains fairly consistent throughout the work. There are some elements, some examples of internal rhyme devices, prices, vices. Yeah, I love those. I like that. I like that a lot. Yeah. So I'm thinking, OK, we're we're rolling along with some good poetic elements. I mean, I'm beginning to see why she wanted to choose this song because there are strong poetic elements in it. The other thing I noticed, you know, when I go back and do addiction study, I'm looking for what types of words does she use? The first thing that just spanks you in the face is the use of dexas. It's spelled D-I-E-X-I-S. It's a it's a literary term that describes a sort of proximal description or use of words. So in this case, it's proximal to her. The dexas or dexas that she uses all focuses on the use of the words I, me, my. OK. And if you go through and count the number of times she uses I, me, my and I did, they add up to over 60 uses. Yeah, I was going to say, it's like basically in every line, at least one. Well, and I went through in this particular one and enumerated the line. So we have 48 lines and more than 60 uses of I, me, my. This is a very self focused. I was going to say, so this is your favorite so far because you love confessional poetry. Yeah, you know, if you're if you're an anti confessionalist, then this is probably not your jam. But nevertheless, it still has some real strengths. OK, so let's get into the. Oh, I'm sorry, I I do have to. I made a little marginal note over here that I thought was kind of funny when I read the title anti hero. And I thought about her role in society and culture, you know, and I understand now from our conversations and going through 20 of these songs that she kind of undergoes a shift from being America's sweetheart early to being the the somehow evil dating serial daters. Yes, person later. And it made me think of a Nike ad from Charles Barkley. OK. So if any of you remember the 1994 Charles Barkley, I loved it. I thought it was great. Charles Barkley comes out and says, I am no hero. He said in in the commercial, just because I can dunk a basketball doesn't mean I should raise your kids. Oh, OK. Yeah. And I, you know, I do kind of like that. And I do take that to heart. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, just because we like I mean, I love Charles Barkley. I followed his career. He's the round mound of rebound and always will be. I watched him when he played at Auburn as a college athlete. He was terrific. I think he's funny on TV. I love his commercials. You know, and I think that he does have a point that, although we make stars of people in in whatever venue, you know, a star of music, a star of athletics, a star of the film, Stager's screen. You know, they don't necessarily they don't necessarily have to live up to that. Yeah. Right. They have their own lives. And that's kind of that's when you were saying that something in her head is making her use humor in the song psychologically. I kind of do feel like it is almost like her acknowledging that, like, these things that you say I'm so terrible for, like. Like there's actual people doing horrible things, you know. And like, there's no reason that I should be in it, like that people should hate me because I like dated some boys and like, you know, got a lot of money because of it, you know, I sing good music. I write good music. I make money. What? Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't mean I have to be a role model for your 12 year old. Yeah. And people also say that, like with, you know, she's, you know, she started her career when she was 16, but now she's 36. And it's like people don't want her to grow up and sing about more adult things like she does on her last couple of albums because like young girls are at her shows. And it's like, well, those are those young girls' mom's job to teach them. And she's going to sing those old songs, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I just I don't know. I thought of Sir Charles when when I noticed the title and as I was reading through and I thought, you know, it kind of behooves us to remember that I understand that she is a role model, but she doesn't necessarily have an explicit obligation to fulfill the job of role model. Yes. She can be an anti hero. She can be a flawed role model and she admits it in his poem. Yeah. She says, now we're actually going to talk about the ball. OK. She says, I have this thing where I get older, but just never wiser. OK, this is like the archetype of Taylor Swift writing. She takes the cliche and she shifts it. Yeah. So the cliche is older and wiser. But here she says she gets older, but not wiser. And I really like that this is close to my favorite line of the poem. Midnights become my afternoon. I like it, too. Right. OK, so what does she mean by that? In some ways, this poem is about depression. OK, so if midnight, you know, usually in the afternoon, depressed personalities tend to be a little bit more happy, ebullient, you know. Yeah. But but depending on the level of your depression, maybe you don't have to, maybe the depression is sunk that deeply. On the other hand, it can also be a description of her actual daily schedule. Yeah, I've always wondered about that, too. It's like she just she's just up later. Right. And this album, she's like the thesis of the Midnights album was the things that haunt me in the middle of the night. OK, and see to me, that's like a third type of thing. If the nightmares are intruding on the day, what kind of psychological problems do you have? Yeah, yeah. But but it may just be an inversion of her schedule, you know, she she sleeps late, she gets up, she rides, she has a responsibility to go to a recording studio or make public appearances generally in the afternoon or the evening. She has this weird inverted schedule and living that schedule takes a toll on your life. Right. Right. So, you know, multiative meanings for line two. And, you know, I love ambiguity. So, yeah, I really like the line. When my depression works, the graveyard shift. I like that path, that line, too. Yeah. All the people I've go to stand there in the room. So depression works, a graveyard shift. You know, we know what a graveyard shift is, right? The late the late shift. It's also personification. She is personifying her depression that works late at night. It's also imagery and pretty terrific diction choice, you know, to talk about the graveyard shift. I mean, you know, because of graveyard. Amongst the depression. Yeah. Right. So dank, dark, surrounded by death imagery, ghosts. And then she goes immediately to I've ghosted standing there in the room. So people, she's abandoned. People, she's left behind either in the business or in her personal life. You know, we don't know. Yeah. Probably both. Probably, I would assume. Yeah. Right. She goes to ghosts are such a in the past, like maybe since folklore are such a. Strong theme in Taylor's work. They are a thing, aren't they? Yeah, because we had like in Lama, we had like dancing phantoms on the terrace. Right. On Speak Now. She has a song called Haunted. So that's like way far back, but there's just like a lot of there's there's ghosts throughout and from like beginning to end. And so I think that's kind of interesting. Yeah, she has these in her closet. Yeah. So yeah. And we've done four lines. OK. We go to the pre-chorus. I should not be left to my own devices. She can't be trusted to her own, you know, her own ideas, her own devices as any anti-hero shouldn't. They come with prices and vices. So they have payouts and they they appeal to her sinful side in some way. Right. And she winds up because of them in crisis. And then she sings tale as old as time, which is a song from Beauty and the Beast. My favorite movie. OK, so if I had had a vote. You know, it was actually nominated for Best Picture. I would have voted that year for Beauty and the Beast. I love that movie so much. I think it's a stunning film. I love the homage to sound of music in the opening scene where she's going through the village. On the hill. She winds up on the hill and we have the circular camera motion. And I love bringing the camera down through the chandelier in the ballroom dance scene. You know, and you know, there's no camera. It's animation. But I acknowledge that. But they do very clever things to make you have that cinematic feel. So let's just talk about Disney films. And now. So it's an allusion to the song and she wakes up screaming from dreaming. So this nightmares are pervasive in her life. Again, internal rhyme. One day I'll watch as you're leaving because you got tired of me. My scheming for the last time. So she acknowledges that she's a scheming person and she is she going to stop the person from walking out the door? No, she's going to watch. Just going to watch. Yeah. I can't ever decide if this is like about a person like she's literally talking about like the relationship that she's in, like this person that knows her on a personal level is going to leave. Or if it's more like the day that society and the Swifties and everyone decides that we don't like her anymore and she's going to be out of the public light. Actually, you just jumped right to my second page. And what I'm sorry. No, you know, I I wondered exactly the same thing. I thought, OK, we certainly know who's talking here. It's the eye. Yeah. Sixty times. Definitely. Four times. Yeah. But but then who is the interlocutor? Who is the person with whom she is talking? Is it is it the person in the mirror? Is it herself? Is it a lover who walks out the door or is it the fan base or the media generally? Right. Right. And I, you know, again, I love ambiguity and I think it's all three. I think so. Yeah. So I think she's got multiple audiences here and she's trying to address them all at the same time. So and I mean, I would call that nice work, actually. So so I like it. I do like that pre-chorus. It's very fun with the dreaming and the leaving and the scheming and the prices and vices and crisis and devices. Well, and I also thought that lines 12 and 10 and 11, the one day I'll watch you as you're leaving, because, you know, of our consistent scheming may even elicit a sense of fear of abandonment. You know, so now we're back into our psychological interpretation and we really need help here. Yeah, I mean, because it feels like she acknowledges that fear of abandonment, but she's she's so passive in her depression, depressive state. She's not going to do anything about it or won't. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Then she goes into the chorus where she kind of greets this fictive person. So I'm interested in the in what what we see when we see the video. OK, yeah, because this one is was a single. So it does have an actual music video. Oh, OK. So we'll get to see that. It's a it's a fun one. And we have we also have her just like talking about the song a little bit too. Oh, listen to this quick. But yeah, I mean, that's what I wondered if it was just one of those lyrical yeah, we have an actual music video. OK, so yeah, when she says it's me, hi, I'm the problem, it's me. You know, I wondered if someone like walks in or that. Yeah, it does feel like she is. She's saying like I never I stared the next lines. I started to look like directly at the sun, but never in the mirror. But it does feel like she's like it's me, hi, like talking to herself in the mirror almost. Right. Yeah. Yeah, so I, you know, I do like that idea that the problem is me. I mean, it's very self-acknowledged, self-ownership. It's like, yeah, I'm it, which is so funny because in in relationships, that's something we seldom say for sure. Yeah. Yeah, it's always your fault unless you're really breaking up and you just want to dump the guy. Yeah, then it is. It's not you, it's me. Yeah, and see you. So at bedtime, everybody agrees. At tea time. Oh, excuse me, at tea time. Everybody agrees. At tea, you know, why tea time? People are talking in the afternoon, having a break. Yeah. And so it's kind of a water fountain discussion. Yeah. And who are they talking about? Her. Yeah. Taylor Swift. Do you know about tea like spilling tea? Do you know this phrase? No. OK, so I think there's like a double meaning with tea time, because that's like your original, that's like your the first image that comes to my mind is like women sitting around like gossiping at an afternoon tea, you know. But also like spilling tea in today's vernacular means like you're gossiping your your like that you like if I came to you and was like, Uncle Jerry, I have some major tea. That would mean like I have something. OK, I have something to tell you that is like gossipy and you're going to love it because it's going to be juicy. That's an expression, by the way, I promise never to use. Yeah, that's probably for the best. I also don't really use it because I also feel too old for it. I mean, at a certain age, six, seven just loses its magic. And we are all that age. So I kind of feel like it's both of those things. It's like they're drinking tea and spilling the tea. That's good, though. I like that. Yeah. And the next line is is again, one of my favorites in this poem. I I'll stare directly at the sun, but never in the mirror. So she looks at the sun, which is a metaphor for self destructiveness. And then the mirror is also a metaphor for self reflection. Right. Right. So so she will be self destructive. That's OK. Yeah. But she won't think about the reasons why or how that's not OK. Yeah, never, never introspective. Right. Always just out there, ruining stuff, which I think we can kind of say is absolutely not true of Taylor. But I feel like her body of work is incredibly introspective and self examining. And I think that this is self examining. Yeah. Yeah. So she's saying she's not, but she really is looking into the mirror here. Yeah. And I also wondered if the sun and the mirror were references to tabloids. Oh, you're right. You can because we're at tea time. Right. You're at tea time and the sun and the daily mirror. Interesting. Yeah. Are two of the best slash worst. Worst, yeah. Tabloids in the UK. Yeah. So yeah, if you hit the front page. Not great. Not great. You either you're in the underground reading about it or you're at tea, I guess. Yeah. That's interesting. I never picked up on that. Yeah, I saw that. And I thought, oh, sun and mirror. Yeah. That's too much. It must be exhausting, always rooting for the antihero. So, you know, again, my note is who's she addressing? Is she addressing her friends? Is she addressing her fans? Is she addressing this person who she says hi to? I think it's all of those. OK. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this next verse. Oh, the the monster verse. Yeah, well, sometimes I feel like everybody is a sexy baby or should I use the high pitched voice? No, I don't think you should. No, OK, don't even try. OK, so during covid when I was home working, I worked from home. And I mean, it was just awful in education, you know, I didn't teach, but I was a dean of liberal arts. And so I had to do, among other things, evaluate faculty. And so how do you evaluate them? You drop in when they had a synchronous lecture or you look at their website and write an evaluation of it. Yeah, how fun. Yeah, I know. It was kind of awful. We had all those, you know, meetings online and that sort of thing. And in the meantime, after I was done with my very busy work schedule, Leslie and I would binge watch shows. And among other things, we bingeed watch 30 Rock. OK, so, you know, sexy. Yeah, yeah, sexy baby. So yeah, there's a whole deal. And I'm wondering, is she referencing that? I do think so. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's like a reference to that. And also just using that to show that like everyone else is like small and cute and fun and fun to be around. And then she's just like this like giant life force, you know. So if you haven't seen the 30 Rock episode, yeah, go and look up. I think it's season five when I was I was trying to see which which season it was today. Yeah, well, and it works in this particular sense because the woman who is the sexy baby, she's got a high pitch, cutesy voice, and she always wears very revealing tops. And she prances around and she tries to demonstrate her sexuality. And really what she's doing is she's hiding. Right. Right. Because she has a relationship that she's hiding from. And I won't give any more than that because it's really a fun. It's a fun moment in the show. What a great show. Yeah, when that's revealed, I know it's just it's just hilarious. And it works because essentially the whole persona of the sexy baby is a facade, right? It's a mask that she puts on. And so Taylor Swift says, I feel like everybody is a as a sexy baby. And I'm the monster. So yeah, she has to pretend to be the sexy baby sometime, but internally she's a monster on the hill. Yeah. And she's too big, which I found to be interesting. The girl got a weight problem. A self image problem. Well, there is a little bit of that in the music video. Actually, we're not going to see that because it got taken out. There was a whole thing where in the music video, she like steps on a scale. And the scale says fat. Really? And like this whole song is very clearly her talking about all of these insecurities and all the things that people say about her and all of the things that she feels like she's doing wrong and is wrong about. And there was such an uproar. People got so mad that she used the word fat, which is insane to me, but whatever. And she they took it out of the music video. So suddenly she's fat shaming people. And yeah, you know, OK, like she's not allowed to like whatever. It was about herself. I feel like you're allowed to do whatever you want about yourself, but I guess not. Yeah. You know, I wondered if it was just because she's a big girl. I mean, you know, which I didn't realize. And we talked about this. My wife and I went to the Texas State Fair. Oh, they're fun times, people. If you're in the five state area, be sure and stop by the Texas State Fair in October. It is the best. It's it is pretty fun. And it's hilarious. There are these art types of state fair going, for example, the butter sculpture. And I am not kidding. There is this massive sculpture made entirely out of butter, kept in a freezer with a big glass window. And I have made a butter sculpture record over the years. What? Yeah, I take pictures every year. Oh, OK, OK. The buttered sculpture. What's your favorite? What's been your favorite? I did like one with a stagecoach. Oh, cute. Yeah, it was a giant stagecoach entirely out of butter. That's what we do here in Texas. Just for fun. Anyway, in the Hall of State, it's this it's this terrific building. The thing was started in 1936 on the yeah, the Texas Centennial. And it was all done in Art Deco style, and it's still there. Beautiful buildings. If you love Art Deco, it is. This is really fun. Anyway, one year just a few years ago, they had a display of Taylor Swift's concert outfits. And so we went in to see them and they were so small. I thought, oh, my, she must be really petite. And then you said, no, she's like almost six feet tall. And I thought, well, then just the outfits are just the outfits are teensy. OK, on that same note, this is not important, but I've always known her to be five eleven, like I've always thought that she was five eleven. And then in the docu series, she's like, I'm five ten. And I'm like, wait, what? We're rewriting history here. So I don't really know how tall she is, but very tall. But yes, I think this is a metaphorical too big. Yeah, too big for her life. Is her life is too big. Yeah, her fame is too much to handle. Yes, I thought so, too. So yeah, metaphorical and maybe literal in a subconscious way. I know. Yes, we're doing the psychological interpretation anyway. You know, we have like these Instagram accounts where like we break down like we're one of them. We break down the lyrics via the poetics. We have another Instagram account that her name is Bridget. She's great. We've talked a little bit. She breaks down like the musical elements and why the music is there. And I feel like now we need a psychologist. It probably does exist that breaks down the psychology in Taylor's lyrics. And we need that person, whoever runs that account, to come on and talk about this. What's going on in her headspace that she fashions herself too big, you know, and it goes great with with a word that I particularly like, nice diction, great word choice, lurching toward your favorite city. You know, so yeah, she's too big. Her concerts are too big. The price of her ticket is too big. And it's lurching. It's this giant thing lurching towards you. Yeah. Yeah. And a great word. A great. Pierce through the heart. Never killed. You know, you just can't knock her out. She's just going to be there and keep going. So the pre-chorus, did you hear my covert narcissism? I disguise as altruism. So she just comes out and I mean, how do you say covert narcissism? Because this is overt narcissism. You know, just saying. Yeah. So she's admitting to being a narcissist again. Where's your head? And and she's pretending to be altruistic. So she is. I don't know, covert and disguised are two antithetical words, right? If you're. I don't know. It's it's it's a funny line. OK, hold on. I need you to dig into that. So OK, so she's like when I read it, just as it's without delving into it, it's like I. Basically, like I'm a I'm a narcissist, but I try to hide it. I try to hide it by being altruistic, kind and altruistic. And yes, OK. And then the next line is like some kind of congressman. You know what she doesn't say? Congresswoman. Yeah. OK, so she gives us a simile. Yeah. But so Congresspeople, she sees politicians are inherently glad-handing, smiling, hiding the fact that they're real narcissists. So I like the covert and disguised because they I said they're antithetical. They kind of mean the same thing, right? And it's what she's hiding from us, but also hiding from herself. OK, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just I found it really interesting. And then she says that's a tale as old as time. Politicians, performers have always been that way. Yes, yeah. Right. I mean, you know, I wonder what we would have done with the number of, for example, gay and lesbian performers of the past, you know, Randolph Scott, I think, was gay. And, you know, I mean, if it had come out in the 1930s and 40s, that this cowboy hero was gay or Barbara Stanwyck was a lesbian. Definitely not allowed. Yeah. And, you know, what do you mean, Barbara Stanwyck? She's the mother on Big Valley. You know, she's got children, for good or sakes. Well, yes, no. Sometimes these things happen. Yeah, you know. And so it is interesting that throughout time, we have we've had to hide aspects of ourselves as performers. And I think tragic. I think sad. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think that may be part of the truth of the song. She says, I wake up screaming from dreaming one day. I'll watch you as you're leaving. So it's pretty much the same. Yeah, except for that last sign. And the yeah. For the last time, because you got tired of my scheming. And this time she says, and life will lose all its meaning for the last time. Yeah. So because once everybody's gone, it's all over. Right. The chorus is the same. Yes. And then the bridge. I was confused by the bridge. I do have to admit, if I were her poetic editor, I would say, you know, you're introducing a fictional narrative in the middle of a of a poem about yourself, of a Confessionless Style poem in which you're examining your own narcissism. I didn't get it. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's just like these are those like this is her up at night. These are those things that she's waking up from dreaming. Right. And it's like even even her family. That she imagines that she's going to have, you know, 30 years in the future. Even those people are only in it for the money. And they they don't even really love her because she's just an anti hero. Yeah, they're only waiting for her to die. I made my, you know, it looks like 2019's knives out. Scene with the family waiting around for the will to be read. And he just gives everything to someone else. Again, I won't spoil the movie. But yeah, there are a lot of those scenes. And I get that. And I also get the the very interesting again, you know, whereas our psychologist, because she's talking about her daughter in law, killing her for the money, waiting on her death. Well, she doesn't have any children. Right. You know, and so I wonder if this is psychologically her fear of missing out. Like that she's not going to even have kids. Right. That she may not have kids. So she may not have the the evil daughter in law who isn't a blood relative, but as someone that her that her son made the mistake of marrying. She doesn't have a relative. Interesting. Yeah. You know, I thought that that's her. That's like almost another like abandonment. It is because it's like I'm going to end up without these people at the end of my life. I'm just going to be alone. I'm not even going to have kids and like. Right. Yeah. I got back to that fear of abandonment note that I wrote for the person walking out on her. You know, the son that she doesn't have, you know, she has a nightmare about the daughter of this. I mean, the wife of the son she doesn't have. Yeah. You know, how many layers of sadness can we? Right. On top of that. And I just didn't, you know, and she's laughing. Everybody realizes after the reading of the will that she's laughing at us up up from hell, like she's she's this again, vindictive monster. And she's in hell. So she's obviously let a bad lie. She's a terrible person. Right. And that's OK because she's laughing down there because they don't get anything. Wow. You know, I guess that this the fictional narrative inserted into a confessional poem to me doesn't work. Yeah, it takes you out of or not. Maybe it takes you out of it, but it just doesn't. It doesn't make sense for you. I mean, I understand it's relevance to her fear of abandonment idea. But it it feels like it deserves its own poem. Interesting. Yeah. OK. So it feels like, you know, I would I would have edited that out and said, you know, if you want to revise this and expand it into another narrative. Yeah, keep this one separate. Then keep it separate. How are you picturing in your head? Like, what do you think this song you think this is like a sad sounding song or a happier sounding song? I have no clue. I'm not. No, I mean, I was curious. I was curious to know, like, if somebody actually walks in on her since it is so darkly humorous, I think it might be a happier sound, actually. Yeah, because because I don't know. I feel like just reading it, it does feel like she does this sometimes where she has devastating lyrics with like a pop beat. And that is maybe a little bit like I don't ever hear this song as like I always think the song is just kind of funny. And the way she performs it at the Ares tour, like, is very it's kind of silly, like she's not taking herself too seriously. But when we're just reading them like this, I'm like, this does this. This is a totally different tone than what the song actually is, I think. Yeah, I made a list. Oh, OK. So I went back through and I looked at at the theme of self deprecation. OK, of the opposite of self aggrandizement. The how is she? How does she think of herself as an anti hero? OK. So in line one, she says she's older, not wiser. In line two, she maintains an inverted schedule. It's a nightmarish life. In line four, she admits to ghosting people. In line five, she can't be left to her own devices. In line six, she admits to having vices. In line seven, she admits to having crises. In line 10, she passively watches while someone leaves her life. In line 11, she admits to being a scheming person. In line 14, she identifies herself as the problem. In line 16, she admits to being self destructive, staring at the sun and not self reflective. Can't look in a mirror. In line 18, she has a poor body or sexual image. Nine nineteen, she is monstrous. In line 20, she is too big and lurching. In line 21, she is eternally that way. In line 22, she is a covert narcissist and a pretend altruist. In line 23, she is a deceitful, self serving congressman. And in line 34 through 37, with that scene, she is deceitful about her legacy and vindictive. Well, she sounds pretty terrible. Well, she's definitely an anti hero. So yeah, I made the list of 18 different ways she is self deprecating interesting in the song. Yeah. And so. I want to hear it. OK, yeah. Yeah, because the rest is just it's all the same. Right. Yeah. Repeats. OK, that's so interesting. It really it really is. I don't know. I feel like the way that you're doing this, where you're reading them first and then hearing the songs like I literally cannot. I thought about doing it for the new album. And I was like, I simply cannot. But I feel like it does it. I don't know. It just like makes this when you hear the song, you're you're hearing all the musical cues and you're like, oh, this is how I should feel about this song. And this is how Taylor feels. But then if you actually break them down like this, it's like, maybe those two things. Yeah, if you list 18 ways, she's awful. Yeah. Yeah. Then and who's saying it? Well, she is. Yeah. Right. She admits to being an anti hero. So, you know, don't look to me for heroics. Yeah. Just be entertained. OK, that's so interesting. OK, we're going to listen. Are you ready to listen now? You want to say something else? No, that's why I wanted to. I think we needed a psychiatrist. I agree. Yeah. And just hand them this list and say, what's up? What? What up with this person? Give us your diagnosis. Are they long for this world? But again, you know, the song is. Is also darkly humorous. Right. Right. And so the question, I guess it begs the question, does the humor cover the truth? Or does the humor reveal that she is sort of looking side-eye at all these issues that maybe these are actual things that she does. But like, are these big things like in the scheme of these are these big flaws? I'm I'm nevertheless OK. Yeah. Interesting. OK, so we're going to. First, we're going to listen to Taylor talk about this song. It's very short. It's like less than a minute, I think. And then we'll watch the music video. Sound great. And I'm wondering now if I should know. We'll just watch the music video. I was going to say maybe we should watch the airs to her performance, but because I just feel like she's not that serious in it. But we'll we'll get there. We'll decide when we get there. OK, we'll be right back. OK. That was fun. Not a bad song. It's a very silly music video. I mean, yeah, the video where she interrupts the end of the video to have a scene with children play out. A little interesting. Yeah, the part that you said you wanted to be removed is like the big part of the music video. Yeah, it's kind of kind of goofy, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, there were things in the video I found interesting. She tries to make a phone call and the phone's disconnected, which I think is very clever. You know, I mean, depressed personalities feel like no one's there for them. No one's listening. And so she rushes to a panic to the phone, pulls it up and nope, nothing there. Yeah. And you were right when she says it's me. It's literally her, which is pretty clever. So she's she's forced to look in that mirror and it's not really her. It's the performance tailor. Yes, it's like the tailor that's it's it's capital T capital. So where's the real Taylor Swift? Yeah, is it the the sad and secure one trying to make a phone, but nobody's there or is it the one that's, you know, decked out in a Spangley outfit ready to perform? Yeah. And in fact, it's neither. Yeah. You know, and I do like it that they were jumping on the bed and at one point the Spangley tailor makes her just gives her a shovel. Pushes her right off. Yep. She gets shot in the heart. She pulls out the arrow and there's no blood. There's glitter. Glitter in the egg, glitter in the blood. She throws up glitter, purple glitter. It's just all glitter. And she says there is no secret message, which is funny because you're always looking for Easter eggs. Always. And she says, nope, not here. Like, guys, calm down. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I thought that it was fun. I thought it was still intrusive that the funeral scene. Maybe that's maybe that's the thing. Maybe those are her intrusive thoughts. Maybe they are. Yeah. I think I think a series of good counseling sessions could be in order. There were this was a long time ago, but somebody asked her if she'd ever been to therapy and she was like, no, I just feel really sane. And it's like, girl. I hope that's changed by now. I think it's an interesting work. It's yeah. Yeah, it's very different. Like, this feels very different than anything else you read before, don't you think? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I did kind of, you know, I mean, just as on a good, bad scale, I did kind of like it. You know? Yeah. I do enjoy listening to this song. It's not one of my favorites, not even one of my favorites on that album, but I think it's like fun, you know? After I made my list, I do have to say that I mean, I kept looking over it and thinking, wow, this is, I mean, I understand that it's tongue in cheek and I understand that it's self-reflective, but but it's also just a little scary that she she worries about this many things. Yeah. You know, this many aspects of her of herself and of her performance self. This I think when Midnights came out, like she was not, she was not in a good place with her whole life at all. I think like I think probably a lot of this she doesn't feel is true anymore, but probably some of it she still does. Yeah. Well, I don't think you know. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how you ever lose that bifurcation of self between standing up in front of tens of thousands of people. You know, that can't be in some ways, it can't ever be your genuine self. Right. Yeah, you're just sitting around in pajamas and socks. And yeah, you know, again, I go back to Charles Barkley. It says, yeah, I was really good at what I did. That doesn't mean I should raise your children. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really on you. Yeah. Shall we grade this one? Yeah, let's do it. All right. OK. For anti hero, we need to grade it on lyrical strength. I did like the rhyme scheme, you know, and there were there were several earmarks of her writing, the shifted cliches, a kind of sprinkling of metaphors and a couple of semiles, you know, I mean, 92. OK. Narrative and structure. I really think that she missed. I mean, I'm going to say if I just heard the song, I think I would have the whole daughter-in-law thing would have passed me right by. OK. Yeah. But as a work of literature, I think that that could be edited. So I'm going to say 88. OK. Production and atmosphere. I kind of like the song. Yeah. You know, I mean, 94. Yeah. Her and Jack. Lore and literary references. Oh, you know, we're back to monsters and ghosts, you know, I like the verse two with the sexy baby and the monster. And I did like the line about staring directly at the sun and never in the mirror. You know, I think it's. Maybe it's 94. OK. And emotional impact. Oh, you know, I'm glad I'm not that person. Yeah. You know, I mean, I'm glad I don't have to suffer the pressures of getting up in front of tens of thousands of people. I also don't have the pressures of spending two billion dollars. But, you know, I think people would always love the one and maybe not like the other. Absolutely. But it didn't have a very strong emotional impact on me. It made me worry for her. Yeah. So maybe a 90. OK. That gives us a 92. OK. Yeah. Hello, a solid. I do feel like. I'm talking again about why this why she chose this one for the songwriters Hall of Fame. I do kind of feel like it is very different. And like she said, when she was talking about it, she said, I really like this one because it's so honest. And I does feel like that is her actually talking specifically about herself, not how somebody else made her feel, but how she makes her feel herself feel. That does feel different than a lot of Taylor's work. And so it does make sense to me that she chose this one because it does stand out a little bit from the others, I think. Right. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. Yeah. And there are a lot of performance pressures and performance anxiety. You know, just when when I'm a classroom teacher, standing up in front of a classroom can be a daunting thing. Yeah. So I used to do a lecture at a university for one of those big, massive groups where I had M.A. students assigned to me. So there were 200 people in the class. No, I hated those. Yeah. Well, I was I was the guy charged with entertaining you for an hour and 20 minutes. And I mean, I thought I did. I thought I did a good job until the day I noticed I hadn't zipped my pants. You know, and I wondered how many of the 200 students noticed that. And that's why I sit behind a desk now. Yeah, that's why you can only see us from here. That's right. That's right. But like you entertaining people for an hour every week now. OK, good. Yeah, you're doing it. Now you're a star. Anything else? No, I think I'm good. Thank you. OK. So we will be back next week with another one of those two Hall of Fame songs that were chosen. Make sure you're subscribed wherever you listen. Apple podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, all the other podcast platforms. You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at Swifty and ScholarPod. You can now follow Uncle Jerry on Instagram at Dr. Uncle Jerry or Dr. Uncle Jerry. And you can follow me on Instagram at Angela Wyatt. All right, we did it. Did it. OK. Bye. Bye. A great story like Monsters Inc. Stays with you forever. And Disney Plus is where you'll find your next great story from the return of the award winning hit series, Rivals. Welcome to the naughtiest show on television to the unmissable crime drama, High Potential. Got a dead body. Got to go. A lifetime of great stories awaits this spring on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.