Creepy Behind the Scenes of Matan's Podcast Exposed | DSH #2014

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With EverPeer, you're not just in the race, you're built to win it. The studio was really, really dirty and just weird. I feel like there were like beer on the floor. I don't know, I would like to see him get like a hospital check or just someone make sure he's okay and like not mentally impaired. I'm quite confident that I'll be world champion in one of those three formats within three years. Okay guys, very special guest today. We got Hans on the podcast, new Netflix documentary just dropped. Chessmates, I saw it last night. Thanks for coming on Hans. Thank you for having me. How has the reception been from the film? Do you like what you saw, how you were portrayed and how people are reacting to it? Yeah, it's certainly been pretty positive. I think a lot of people didn't know much about it, had a very service level understanding and this was a good way to delve deeper. So it's certainly been pretty positive. And yeah, I think it's a good step in the right direction. I thought it was very interesting, very entertaining. It was interesting that they had both sides on it, usually with documentaries, they're a little one-sided, but they got to interview both of you. So that was pretty unique, right? Yeah, well you had obviously, mostly everyone involved. I guess you had a lot more people involved to her, I guess kind of against me. I mean, it was, you would have thought that it, if it could have been biased anyway, it would be biased against me because you had Magnus, Hikaru, and just.com, who, I mean, they're all kind of going to say the same thing or are going to have very similar perspectives because they were sort of, they're all business partners and friends and kind of on the same side of things. And I also sued them all. So I kind of viewed all of their, I mean, I had, I knew what to expect from them, at least from supporting, it was kind of my own voice against all of them. And I'm glad I came across. Yeah, the chess mafia, you call them, right? Yeah, well, I mean, it's, yeah, a mafia is a simple way of referring to a monopoly. I did want to ask you about the Matan podcast. I saw the whole thing. What did you think about that interview? Yeah, it was certainly unique and interesting experience. His side characters honestly creeped me out. I understand comedy and it could be a bit, but it felt just really, really weird. And it didn't feel funny. Like I think if you see how the side character are, character are off camera, it's genuinely just creepy. Like I walk in and that guy Mike, Mike, Mike's sleeping on the floor of the studio. And it wasn't like a joke. He was actually sleeping there. And, you know, not to be insensitive, but he seems genuinely sort of mentally neurodivergent to a serious degree. So I personally just kind of felt concerned for the guy. And for his well being, because he was sleeping on the floor and he didn't really seem okay. So I left kind of concerned for him and a bit confused by their, let's say, comedic perspective. It's not really the type of comedy that I enjoy. I thought some of it was in bad taste, but it's a large platform. And I mean, I generally think it's good to bring chess to water audiences, but I was left very, very confused. I did not know off camera they were like that while I always know the bits don't, I mean, you like the guy viral flooring. He doesn't even speak. I walk in, he didn't even say hi to me. He was just like silent. I mean, it's like funny on camera. But it was just eerie. Like it's some of it was not a bit like this. I don't know. I mean, I just hope that Mike Mike is mentally okay in a normal situation because he really did not seem like he was there. Like he seemed like someone who could be in a mental hospital. Yeah, someone who looks like they're in a mental hospital should probably get mental health. Yeah. I mean, he's never said a word in all their episodes. So who knows what's going on there? To me, it's just very, very weird. I just think that the concept of the podcast is to offend and make you as uncomfortable as possible and to creep you out. So I mean, I guess some things get views. I mean, but it's not something that like I would recommend someone to go on. But I was kind of just curious. Did you know the style of the show before you went on? Yeah, I knew the style of the show. He'd actually reached out to me almost two years ago. I just had never I never go to LA. There's just really not many tournaments there. I'm always traveling. If I come to America, it's only New York. I mean, LA is just so far. For me to like, you know, if I'm competing in Europe to fly back to New York is one thing, but to fly back to LA is I mean, to justify that unless there's like some really important reason is really, really difficult. So I was aware I assumed that since he'd been trying to get in touch with me or try to do a podcast for so long that he was like more positive. I thought maybe he's a young guy. He likes chess. Maybe he'll be like a fan or more friendly. But at some points I was the thing with baton that I don't understand is that it's all a bit, but then he'll try to like make serious arguments. But then it's a bit confusing. Like, are you trying to argue with me on a factual serious basis? Or are you trying to troll me? And like all the things he was saying, I would reply to seriously. And then he would try to be serious. And then if and then he would make, you know, it'd be something said in jest. But I was a bit confused. Like, at some moments he's saying this or that and trying to like, let's say, catch me in something. But then it's like back to, you know, let's say just pure stupidity. So I didn't really understand that the contrast between those two things. I thought you handled it pretty well. I think a younger Hans would have gotten angry and would have gotten into some yelling there. But you, I thought you had. I mean, I'm not really like, what am I going to achieve by yelling? I mean, it's not really, I tried to just stay focused and not distracted by the guy to my right. I mean, I could see how the pure chaos of it could be funny. But as a guest, it's just kind of weird. If off camera, they were super nice and like, oh, ha ha ha. Maybe I could be normal. But off camera, when they're like, when the bits are equally weird, kind of are just like developed. You know, you're just just kind of concerned for them. 100%. I could relate to that. I've done 2000 pods and Matan Evan is my toughest interview of all time because he acts like that off camera too. He like fully embraces that role, you know. Yeah, he's just, did you so you interviewed him or you wanted his podcast or I interviewed him? I don't think I'd want to go on his show. I think he would just try to clip me up and make me look that honestly. Yeah, the good thing is I've actually posted some of the clips myself. So I guess it's everyone can clip the interviews they like and post on their individual channels to their own pleasing. I mean, that's the that's the downside of like sort of social media brain rot cultures that that one clip can make you look really, really bad. And then people made people's minds are made up. Yeah, yeah, you kind of have to control the narrative, right? You kind of have to take it in your own hands these days. Yeah, you can. I guess some people have like publicists who will call every interview and you know, make sure it's rehearsed. But I'm not really into I just did like a podcast today that was I mean, former intellectual and normal than that. But yeah, I don't know. Matan is interesting. To me, the studio was really, really dirty and just weird. Like I feel like they're like beer on the floor. I don't know. I think Mike, Mike just I would like to see him get like a hospital checkup or just someone make sure he's okay and like not mentally impaired. Because sleeping in the floor of like some dirty office. I feel like a lot of people just accepted getting ripped off by their bank monthly fees, overdraft fees, ATM fees, like why are you paying money just to use your own money? That's why Chime caught my attention. Chime is changing the way people bank with fee free banking built for you, not the bank. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees and access to thousands of fee free ATMs. Honestly, the benefits are kind of stacked with direct deposit. Chime members can get up to $1,150 in annual rewards, be free. You could get 5% cash back on things you already spend money on like gas and groceries plus savings that grow faster with 3.75% APY. That's way above the national average. They've also got spot me, which lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free and real customer support 24 seven actual humans. My younger self would definitely benefit from something like this. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today at the chime.com slash dsh. That's chime.com slash dsh. It only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services from my pay and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. Stated annual percentage yield and cash back for Chime Primally. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on the JD Power survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, my pay, spot me and travel perks, go to chime.com slash disclosures. In business, I'm always trying to get the best outcome for the best price. So it's kind of crazy. I haven't looked at my life insurance in years. I don't even know if what I'm paying is competitive or if I have enough coverage with how things have changed. That's why I started looking into select quote for over 40 years. They've helped more than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their whole model is simple. They shop around to find you the right policy for your specific needs so you're not overpaying or under covered. Their licensed agents work for you in as little as 15 minutes. They compare policies from top rated carriers to find something that fits your health and your budget and they do it for free. No medical exam, no problem. You could get same day coverage up to $2 million. And if you've got preexisting conditions, they've got options for that too. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50% as select quote.com slash dsh. Save more than 50% on term life insurance at select quote.com slash dsh to data get started that's select quote.com slash dsh. It's just just weird. Yeah, that doesn't sound pleasant. Mike, Mike, if you're watching this and you need help, that's the gist, I guess. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think to me it's just like the entire show is just clips. Yeah, every single segment is just designed for clips. Like you're basically there's not much substance. Like it's kind of just a what do I say to get the best clip and then you're just clip farming literally for 45 minutes straight is clip farming. Right. What do you think about that overall? Because the younger generation seems to really be attached to clips to live streaming to these viral controversial moments. Do you think we're kind of heading in the wrong direction there with this? Yeah, I mean, I mean, if usually I don't really take short form comments too seriously, like, sometimes comments can be a good like signal reflection of quality or something. But a short form or something without context, I don't take it too seriously. Because you know, the internet can be a very negative place. So if something can easily evoke a negative reaction, I mean, that's possible, that's just people's knee jerk, our reaction. But I would say that obviously, the clips that are rehearsed, I mean, maybe he's you can do really good job and no one can tell. But most clips, I feel like naturally happen. I mean, if you plan it or you try too hard to clip farm. But I mean, his viewership is quite significant. So he must I mean, I think he seems to have a very young fan base of like kids who just enjoy watching trolling. I don't think he has a very mature, mature fan base, to be honest. Yeah. What's your fan base? You know the age range of your demographic you've been streaming for a while, right? I guess on Twitch is probably different. I don't know. I feel like most it's hard to say. I think there are a lot of people who are like, know of me know a bit about me. That's probably a very, very large number. And then people who follow me or like interact with my social media frequently is a lot less. But I would say that probably younger, maybe like 18 to 24 is probably my largest demographic. Yeah. I know, you know, you got a lot of criticism for how everything happened. But I feel like in person is different, right? Did you ever get people in person kind of? Yeah, it's actually funny. I mean, in New York, I get recognized by like once a day at least if I'm walking around or in the restaurant. And I never have a negative reaction. I honestly, there's times where I'm out in New York and I get recognized three times a night and it's always incredibly positive. I've never, I mean, I don't know whether it's just mafia paid bots, but or just the mainstream news. But I've literally never ever had a negative or real negative interaction. There's times people have to spoken to me when I maybe I wanted some privacy. You know, I found that annoying. But in the real world, I think people are pretty normal. And a lot of the negativity online is just the sort of the, the, the, you know, the loud minority. Right. Most people are just a silent majority. That's always the interesting thing to me because I've interviewed some of the most controversial people in the world. You know, guys like Andrew Tate and stuff, and they say the same thing. You just said no one's ever come up to them in person and talk smack. I think over the internet, it's just so easy to hide behind a page and talk, you know, and a lot of people, I personally have never, ever watched a YouTube video and written a negative comment or even written a comment at all. I don't know. I think most people, the large majority are just kind of like, they don't comment. And I think a lot of people who do like, you know, always reply and comment, that's kind of something, or they're probably just like redditors, you know, and I, I personally look at Reddit as like a barometer. If Reddit's against me, I'm doing something right because I find all of it is just like completely stupid. I mean, everyone on Reddit is just like, you can't take any Reddit thread seriously because anyone who, anyone who like even spends their time like writing Reddit comments is just like automatically, I just, you just, you just can't take them seriously. Like passionate ones. Like if you write a paragraph negative comment on Reddit, you're just a loser. Like you need to go outside and make some friends. So, you know, it's, you can check, but out of curiosity, but it's not really, I think, something that a metric that you should use to judge yourself or to judge, like, things that you've done. I mean, it's not, yeah, in person, honestly, only in crime. Like when I go to tournaments, I get mobbed by kids asking for autographs and photos. I mean, I played a tournament, Grand K where I probably took a thousand photos. Wow. And after every single game, there was a, you know, crowd of like 50 to 100 kids waiting outside to get a photo and autograph. So I don't really feel the, the, the hate or, or, or bad boy image too much. That's insane. I witnessed that too. At freestyle chess here in Vegas, people were coming. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, that was a great event. I mean, that was a great, great example. I mean, we were a bit overshadowed by the, by the NBA guys, but I suppose we, you know, we, yeah, exactly. You still playing in those tournaments, freestyle chess? Well, freestyle chess, you know, they had that entire tour and that event you came to was really quite special. Unfortunately, they, they don't have the full tour again this year. They just have the Royal Championship. They had a Grand K, which is a open tournament, but not as for, not with all the glitz and glamour that they had at the win. So they have the Royal Championship, the freestyle world championship, and then they have sort of qualification pass, but they don't have the same, you know, sort of intercontinental tour, you know, they had Cape Town, Paris, Vegas, Germany. So they've scaled down a bit. Yeah. They seem to be doing some really interesting stuff. I feel like that was a very unique style of chess, right? You had to learn a complete new game. Yeah. Well, obviously, you know, maybe not learn a whole new game, but you have to forget everything you learn to the past because it's, it's everything is the same, but you don't, you're not relying on all the things that you memorized before. So it's, as a player, I personally love freestyle. Like it's, it's a lot more interesting. It's way more sort of intellectually challenging and stimulating. Every game is fresh. Everything is new and unique. So it's like, you know, a good comparison is if, you know, if you play Call of Duty, you play the one map, one map for your entire life, instead of rotating maps, it makes things so much more interesting. So I think that's a very, very, very, very good comparison. You still play any video games? You know, I used to play a lot of Fortnite. Oh, yeah. I was really big into NBA 2K. It's just probably when I was like 13, 14, and I took a bit of a break from chess, but I wasn't competing as much. And I would say the game I was the best at was probably Fortnite or NBA 2K, but those were my favorites by far. And you gave it all up for chess, right? Well, I was never really competitive to the level of chess, but that was probably 13, 14, 15. And then from 15, 16, I took chess more seriously, became an international master. And then once I finished high school, I became a grandmaster and then sort of broke through quickly. Yeah. What's the format you're focused on right now? Is there a specific mode that you're going all in on Blitz? Yeah, the classical format, I always see these are the most prestigious and winning the classical or just temperature title like who cash did is obviously like a life changing thing. But yeah, that's the primary focus. I'm playing a lot of them. I just played a classical match in Paris. I'm playing two more in Belgrade. I'm playing a classical event in Uzbekistan and then I won in India. So there are certainly more opportunities like there's a chess Olympiad coming up and finally on the US Olympic team. So this is incredibly busy schedule. But you're trying to improve sort of your game all throughout, but I still want to break through into the classical, you know, top 10. I'm number 12 in the world now, so I'd like to be in the top five. Yeah, you're right there. This could be the year, right? Yeah, I think I'll definitely make it in the top 10 this year, but we'll see if I can make it into, you know, top five, top three and start really, you know, winning big tournaments. How big is that gap right now with top five and 12 right now? I mean, top 10 is like very small. It's like 10 rating points. Top five is like 25 points. So it's like one good tournament to top 10, two, two or three good tournaments and I'm top five. Yeah. And you said on the dock multiple times, your goal is to be the number one chess player in the world. And you said within 10 years, right? I know, I mean, 10 is a bit much. I would say that, you know, they're doing a lot of things. I feel like a lot of people just accepted getting ripped off by their bank monthly fees, overdraft fees, ATM fees, like why are you paying money just to use your own money? That's why Chime caught my attention. Chime is changing the way people bank with fee free banking built for you, not the bank. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees and access to thousands of fee free ATMs. Honestly, the benefits are kind of stacked with direct deposit. Chime members can get up to $1,150 in annual rewards, fee free. You could get 5% cash back on things you already spend money on like gas and groceries, plus savings that grow faster with 3.75% APY. That's way above the national average. They've also got spot me, which lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free and real customer support 24 seven actual humans. My younger self would definitely benefit from something like this. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today at the chime.com slash dsh. That's chime.com slash dsh. It only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank banking services for my pay and chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges stated annual percentage yield and cash back for Chime Prim only no minimum balance required checking account ranking based on the JD power survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, my pay spot me and travel perks go to chime.com slash In business, I'm always trying to get the best outcome for the best price. So it's kind of crazy. I haven't looked at my life insurance in years. I don't even know if what I'm paying is competitive or if I have enough coverage with how things have changed. That's why I started looking into select quote for over 40 years. They've helped more than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their whole model is simple. They shop around to find you the right policy for your specific needs. So you're not overpaying or undercover. Their licensed agents work for you in as little as 15 minutes. They compare policies from top rated carriers to find something that fits your health and your budget and they do it for free. No medical exam, no problem. You could get same day coverage up to $2 million. If you've got preexisting conditions, they've got options for that too. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50% as select quote dot com slash dsh. Save more than 50% on term life insurance as select quote dot com slash dsh to date to get started. That's select quote dot com slash dsh. For world championships, right? There's the world, there's Blitz and there's Rapid and there's classical. So I'm quite confident that I'll be world champion in one of those three formats within three years. I mean, wow, I'm quite that I feel quite certain to win one of them because I mean, every year you have Rapid and Blitz. So you have two chances every year. And I've been close to last two years. So that I'm quite confident in classical is, you know, the cycles every two years, you have to wait a while. I mean, classical is the whole thing. But rabbit and blitz, I feel quite confident that things will come together in one of these years. Yeah. And the top guys right now, they're getting older, right? I saw in the documentary, you said they're aging out a little bit. They're not. Well, Magnus is retired from classical chess, I would say so, not fully retired, but he's not a serious player anymore. Or he doesn't play in the top events. He car is basically also retired from classical chess. He did play the candidates, but he played very poorly and didn't show anything truly impressive. And, you know, and then Faby is getting older, but he's incredibly consistent. And then you have some of the old guys holding on like Anish Keri, Wesley So. But, you know, the young players have certainly taken over, you know, to 19 year olds are playing for the whole championship title. So it's safe to say that the new generation has, you know, taken over. But it's unclear how many of these sort of older, how long the older generation will hold on, because it's a lot easier to hold on and wrap it in blitz. But in classical, when you get one one game, last six hours, you know, it's a different level of focus, different level of discipline and preparation that is a lot harder to maintain with age. Do you also want to have the highest elo of all time? Is that a goal of yours? There's been a lot of deflation. So having the highest class grading of all time would be really, really hard, I think with the current status of chess. But I would just, you know, the goal would be to dominate for like 20 years. 20 years? Well, yeah, I mean, if you dominate for 20 years, you're the greatest of all time. So we'll see how that goes. You don't want to be just the champ. You want to be the goal. Yeah, I mean, that's that's the only real real goal, to be honest. I mean, to become world champion once in my 20 year career is like, in my opinion, like 90% likelihood. But whether I can fully, fully dominate is this will require, will require, I mean, another level. Yeah, they say a lot of champions say it's harder to defend than to get that first one. Yeah, well, I think, you know, it's just a, it's just a mathematical thing. If I'm, if I'm playing, if I'm playing for 20 years, and if I, if I'm playing 20 more rolled rapid and bliss championship, and there are two different times, there's 40 chances. You know, I was fourth last, last year, tying for second. So I mean, those 40 chances, if I'm a top five player in the world, I mean, I'm statistically from a purely like logic perspective, I'm statistically bound to win one of them if things go my way. So, you know, that's not accounting for my improvement as well. Where does this competitiveness come from? I think I saw in the doc, at least you said you got bullied a lot growing up. Does it come from some childhood stuff for you? No, you know, that, honestly, they, I think they kind of took that out of context, to be honest. I think it was more of a thing that looked nice for the angle, but it was not really bullied as more so, you know, I was quite focused on chess. So I was not the most social person. But I was actually incredibly competitive in sports growing up. I mean, I was one of the top cyclists in the country. I, you know, I competed in cycling in the Netherlands. I was on, you know, I played water polo. You know, I was on in high school, you know, my, my, my swim team was like the state champion for the 13th year in a row. So, you know, so I was always very athletic and very competitive in all things. You know, I play a lot of tennis now. So I would say that the, you know, competing is in my nature, but obviously chess is the best way for me to manifest that competitive drive. That's fascinating. Because when you think of the typical grandmaster, you don't think they're pretty athletic physically, but it sounds like you got that on lock too. It's, I think it's to me, I just love competing and you know, my family, they're all sort of athletes. I'm competing at a very high level. So for me, I wanted to compete at the highest level in something. Chess is what I was talented at and what I generally thought I could reach the highest level at. So also, I mean, I much prefer an individual sport. You have a lot more control. I mean, if I dedicated my life to water polo, you know, it's a team sport. There's not much money in it. Like you can't really be a star in water polo. I can't name a single water polo player. Exactly. You know, there's probably people who dedicated their entire lives to water polo, but you know, there's the players didn't make much money. Maybe they have a few Olympic medals, but all those, I don't like sports where there's all these are in factors. Like what if you're the best player, but you're, you play for the Olympic team in your country is terrible. So you don't achieve anything despite how good you are. I mean, I wouldn't much prefer like if I didn't play chess, I wish I would have hoped I would have been a tennis player or a swimmer or a cyclist, but I think I had all I had the talent and the necessary ingredients to be a top chess player. And thankfully, I identified that from a very early age and was grateful. I mean, lucky enough to have the opportunities to pursue that and have the resources, you know, to, to, to play against the best and improve. I felt like you cost him good timing too, because chess has gotten more mainstream, more viral from when you first started playing, right? Well, I was sort of a part of this 2020 post Queens gambit Twitch boom when all these people were streaming. I mean, I, I streamed so much during the pandemic, early pandemic. And then I, you know, end of 2021, I just started competing nonstop and quit. But, you know, I would say that chess growing, I mean, the prize money has been increasing, you know, the freestyle events are crazy prize money. So also there's the eSports World Cup in Saudi, which is like, you know, you signed to an eSports team, you know, it's, it's like, it's, it's amazing. So the money is only increasing. I mean, there's a serious amount of money and resources that's being invested in chess. A lot of people are trying to revolutionize the game, trying to make it more of a commercial sport. It'd be cool to see it in the actual Olympics. I know you said there is a chess Olympiad, but that's separate. So yeah, the chess Olympiad is, is, is in Uzbekistan this year. However, there is a chance that chess could be added to the Olympics, although it's not a physical sport. The host city or country has the right to nominate and choose a sport. And chess is a part of the IOC. And even I got, I took a piss test, lost world championship. And India being, let's say, the birthplace of chess is allegedly very, very likely to, to nominate chess to the world. Wow. And that's in 2036. I'd be massive. So 10 years from now, I mean, Olympic team chess, I mean, that'd be pretty cool. That'd be awesome. Yeah, it doesn't look like the US would nominate it, right? Two years, 28? I guess I'll have to call Trump and see what we can do. I'm sure he has someone in the family that plays. I feel like it's so common now. Yeah, actually went to the same high schools, Barron. No way. Yeah. That was the one in the Netherlands I saw you talk about. No, it was a private school in New York during his time. But he was two years below me. Okay. I saw that viral IQ test clip. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He didn't really let me explain, but the thing with Matan is where he thinks he's really smart. I think he's a smart guy, but he thinks he's too smart. I think I agreed. I think he thinks he's a lot smarter than he is. I mean, he's a sharp guy. He's a sharp guy. No, but I mean, I don't want to, the thing is, is that it was very funny that I have 260. We actually played chess after the podcast. Oh, did you? And he lost in like three minutes. I mean, that makes sense. I mean, yeah, there's something to blame, but it was, we should have played chess on the podcast. I mean, that would have been a good idea. But yeah, we played. He made me play him. He was, he's like, right. I'm trying to get to my goal is 2000 in my lifetime. I think that that's doable. What's your current rating? 1600. It's not bad. Yeah. 2000. What time control? Blitz. Five minutes. Yeah. Five minutes. Make some opening tweaks. Keep competing. It's very, very possible. Just you have to be careful of the plateaus. A lot of people, you hit your first plateau. It, you know, some people, for the rest of their life. I mean, I feel like a lot of people just accepted getting ripped off by their bank monthly fees, overdraft fees, ATM fees, like, why are you paying money just to use your own money? That's why Chime caught my attention. Chime is changing the way people bank with fee free banking built for you, not the bank. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees and access to thousands of fee free ATMs. Honestly, the benefits are kind of stacked with direct deposit. Chime members can get up to $1,150 in annual rewards. Be free. You could get 5% cash back on things you already spend money on like gas and groceries, plus savings that grow faster with 3.75% APY. That's way above the national average. They've also got spot me, which lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free and real customer support 24 seven actual humans. My younger self would definitely benefit it from something like this. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Edit chime.com slash dsh. That's chime.com slash dsh. It only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services from my pay and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. Stated annual percentage yield and cash back for Chime Primally. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on the JD Power Survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, my pay, spot me and travel perks, go to chime.com slash disclosures. In business, I'm always trying to get the best outcome for the best price. So it's kind of crazy. I haven't looked at my life insurance in years. I don't even know if what I'm paying is competitive or if I have enough coverage with how things have changed. That's why I started looking into Select Quote. For over 40 years, they've helped more than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their whole model is simple. They shop around to find you the right policy for your specific needs so you're not overpaying or undercovered. Their licensed agents work for you in as little as 15 minutes. They compare policies from top rated carriers to find something that fits your health and your budget and they do it for free. No medical exam, no problem. You could get same day coverage up to $2 million. And if you've got preexisting conditions, they've got options for that too. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50% as selectquote.com slash dsh. Save more than 50% on term life insurance as selectquote.com slash dsh to date to get started. That's selectquote.com slash dsh. Plateaus are really people underestimate the learning curve of chess. You know, once you kind of hit that first plateau, if you let it, if you sit at that level for too long, it's kind of like a glacier. You could just be frozen for the rest of your life. That's my fear because I want to hear about your plateaus and how you overcame them. But yeah, I've been stuck at 1600 for a year now so I don't know if I need to spice it up or do something new. Yeah, I had a plateau from, so when I was from, for the second half of sixth grade, all of seventh grade, I was homeschooled and I had this big breakthrough. I was living near New York and then I had to go back to school, which was a decision of my parents, which I really didn't, you know, which was not great for my chess. And I, and at that point, before I went back to school, I was a number three, like ranked under 12 for my age in the world. And then I stayed at the same rating for three years. And while all these guys were becoming grand nostres, competing this, that I was just, you know, playing Fortnite and doing a geometry homework, I mean, a complete waste of my time. And there was this one summer that I was like, I quit chess. I was like, I'm done with chess. It's just a stupid game. What a waste of my time. And then I did, I started doing these calculation puzzles. And I started building up my, my thought process, my ability to calculate, my ability to really, really hone in on my calculation skills. And, you know, that led to insane improvement. I kind of, I got my, I got, I became an international master in that summer. And I just like spiked in rating. And I had a huge breakthrough just from really, really focusing on my weaknesses. So you have to have a really strong ability to be accountable and to sort of be introspective. And at a, you know, at a lower level, it's harder to have that awareness and introspection, but I know deep down, you kind of know, oh, I this opening or oh, I always flag or oh, I always blunder, you know, I mean, you kind of only you truly know what's going on in your brain. So it takes sort of a level of introspection to, to really a personal introspection and combination with coach's advice to, to really improve. Maybe I'll take a few months and just do the puzzles on chess.com. Yeah, and also, I mean, playing slower games can be better. Sometimes you have, I mean, it might not be fun, but sometimes you should play at 10 plus zero, force yourself to really think. Maybe you should change your openings or maybe, you know, I mean, I haven't seen your games. So it's hard for me to, to, to a pint, but that's, that's my general advice. What was the next plateau for you? Was there another one after that sixth grade one? Well, the next big plateau was, you know, post-Singfield Cup when my life was like ruined. And I had no opportunities. So yeah, that plateau lasted like two years with no opportunities. And now I'm almost up top 10 of the world. So I didn't really have any, I kind of, I progressed very quickly. Since then, until everything was ruined. Wow. So you're doing a lot of puzzles those two years. Oh yeah, I mean a lot, a lot of just sitting on my, you know, hands like, what, what do I do with my time? Because it's hard to motivate. It's hard to be motivated when you don't have anything to play. You know, like you're kind of like, what am I, what am I wasting on my time? You know, how close were you to quitting during that time period? Oh no, I was never close to quitting. Never thought. No, no, no, no, no. I had to, for me to quit chess, it's like, it's just, I was just like, disappear into some island. Like I have no reason to live without chess. I mean, like, that's, I mean, that can be interpreted in like a depressing way. But for me, chess is my life. Like chess has been my entire life since I was eight years old. Like chess is my complete passion and fulfillment and, and, and mission and my life's work. So I mean, no, at no point. Wow. So I think about quitting. No, I was not even, not even like the thought didn't even enter like a 1000 mile radius of my, of my mind. That's impressive because you had the whole media against you, a lot of the chess mafia against you. Yeah, but I mean, you know, that happens in life. Look, look what they look what happened to Fisher. I mean, Fisher, you know, the Soviet Union completely controlled chess and, and, and everything was rigged and all the tournament formats were rigged and he had no support. And this is a time before technology. So, you know, you have far less access to information, you know, the democratization of, of information in the AI era, you know, makes things a lot fairer. But, you know, if he can overcome, if he can literally defeat the KGB and the greatest intellectual battleground, and, you know, I can handle some like, you know, wannabe cult leader, chess mafia, like creeps, you know, I mean, yeah, I can, I should be able to do my best. And obviously it's not easy, but I mean, I just kind of, I just look at people who had it worse. And I tell myself, I should be grateful. Like Quarchnoy defected from, there's a question, I was probably the greatest chess player who never became a champion defected from the Soviet Union, was worried that he's going to be assassinated by the KGB, political asylum, you know, son was in prison, they would send hypnotists to his matches to like, to mess with him. I mean, for now, I've got it easy, you know, it's just, everything's relative in life, right? Look, look at, you know, look at what politicians have to deal with, look at what public figures have to deal with. I mean, for the chess world, that's the worst. I mean, it's the worst someone has experienced in modern history, but compared to what other, you know, what people like Elon Musk have to deal with on a daily basis or other people, obviously, I'm still quite young and I don't have their resources and their influence and their ability to sway public opinion. But I try to just the only efficient thing to tell yourself is be grateful, make the best move on the board. I mean, this is, this applies to life and not only to chess, but sometimes in life, you have no good moves, but you still have to make the best move. You know, you can't just, you can never give up or feel sorry for yourself. I mean, it's just just never productive. Did you have this mindset while you were going through it or did it come afterwards? There were some periods where I maybe was not as, I didn't have the same foresight and patience, but slowly but surely I developed more of a deeper understanding of the path forward and that I just simply had to be very, very patient. That must have been hard for you. Patience is not my strength. Well, yeah, it was quite the patience, but once you start to see the light end of the tunnel, you know, the light only starts shining brighter and that makes it easier to go forward. I've seen the argument where this actually, I don't know how you feel about this, but there's some people saying that this helped your career in the long run. It's made it made you, yeah, you know, this I actually find like to be really, really disgusting because anyone else who experienced what I did, I think, did you have that girl Nemo on who said that? Yes. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think I saw that clip. You know, to say that it helped me, I honestly find to be a really, really just like abhorrent and unapathetic thing to say because like what I experienced at the age of 19 would have destroyed not only someone's chess career, but would have destroyed someone mentally that they would have honestly like, I'm not going to just don't even talk about myself. Anyone who experienced that, it would have been the end of their chess career. And what should have ruined my it honestly should have ruined my life. Like if I look at it from a practical perspective, that that honestly should have been like the thing that destroyed my life and like, I don't know what would have happened to anyone else, but I had the unique resilience. Also the fact that like I benefited from it. You know, the main reason why public opinion has swayed in my favor has because has been because of how resilient I've been on the chess board and and the achievements, you know, and all the things that I've done on the chess board have been my own sort of, uh, it's been my I'm responsible for that. And that's what's shown people how false those accusations were. Right. So, you know, if I, you know, kind of disappeared and wasn't able to feel like a lot of people just accepted getting ripped off by their bank monthly fees, overdraft fees, ATM fees, like why are you paying money just to use your own money? That's why Chime caught my attention. Chime is changing the way people bank with fee free banking built for you, not the bank. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees and access to thousands of fee free ATMs. Honestly, the benefits are kind of stacked with direct deposit. Chime members can get up to $1,150 in annual rewards, be free. You could get 5% cash back on things you already spend money on like gas and groceries, plus savings that grow faster with 3.75% APY. That's way above the national average. They've also got spot me, which lets you overdraft up to $200 fee free and real customer support 24 seven actual humans. My younger self would definitely benefited from something like this. Chime is not just smarter banking. It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today at the chime.com slash dsh. That's chime.com slash dsh. It only takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services for my pay and chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Optional products and services may have fees or charges. Stated annual percentage yield and cash back for Chime Primoly. No minimum balance required. Checking account ranking based on the JD Power Survey published October 20, 2025. For more information on APY rates, my pay, spot me and travel perks, go to chime.com slash disclosures. In business, I'm always trying to get the best outcome for the best price. So it's kind of crazy. I haven't looked at my life insurance in years. I don't even know if what I'm paying is competitive or if I have enough coverage with how things have changed. That's why I started looking into select quote for over 40 years. They've helped more than two million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their whole model is simple. They shop around to find you the right policy for your specific needs. So you're not overpaying or undercover. They're licensed agents work for you and as little as 15 minutes, they compare policies from top rated carriers to find something that fits your health and your budget and they do it for free. No medical exam, no problem. You could get same day coverage up to $2 million. If you've got preexisting conditions, they've got options for that too. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50% as select quote.com slash DSH save more than 50% on term life insurance as select quote.com slash DSH to data get started. That's select quote.com slash DSH compete at the highest level anymore. A lot of people would just say, Oh, you know, the accusations were true. Look at him now. He can't compete. But you know, from a lot of the people's perspective for what from what I've been told, you know, they're saying, Wow, you're doing so well, of course, these are false. This is false. So I personally like anyone who says that I just, I just can't really engage with them because it just shows a very, very deep and lack of understanding of like reality and how intense it was what I experienced. And to me, anyone who thinks that is just blindly obsessed with fame. Because only, you know, it just shows, I think, a lack of understanding of like the consequences of infamy, because you should make a very clear distinction between fame and infamy, right? Being famous, you know, even like celebrities say, you know, be rich, not famous. You know, I mean, being famous is one thing. I don't, you know, it's not, I don't think being famous is nice. I don't think it's like a great, I mean, if I could achieve everything I could achieve and just like not be a public figure and just focus on chess and give away all my fame and reputation, I would, I would, I would snap my fingers so quickly, you know, but people kind of confuse and they idolize this concept of fame and infamy without realizing, you know, I mean, the real consequences it can have with someone's life. I also think when it comes to Magnus, you know, everyone just believes him because he's like a lot of people's role model and idol, right? So they see him say something and they're like, that must be true. So I feel like that played a role too. It was also, I mean, no one really stood up for me. I didn't have the, a lot of chess players have a country behind them, have a team behind them, have a support system. At that point, I had no support. No one stood up for me. Not one person? In a meaningful way, no. Wow. Early on, no. In a meaningful way, that made an impact and that really, really stood up for me. No. Wow. That's crazy. Not a single person. I mean, in the early stages, I would say, I would say like, there was, I mean, I own, I just, you know, it's just, it just reminds you in life that you should never rely on anyone. I mean, either, you know, it's a very American thing, you know, you pull yourself up on your own bootstraps, right? I mean, either in life, when those things happen to you, you sink or swim, and you fail, or you, you, you, you succeed or you disappear. I mean, that's, that's the, I guess, the silver lining of experiencing something so insane, because when you do experience something so insane, either it makes you, you, you, you establish an, an extreme degree of mental resilience, or you collapse. I mean, in my opinion, there's no, there's no, there's no in between. When did the first GM support you? How many months in? Well, there are people who kind of lightly supported me like, oh, you know, there's no evidence, this and that, but I would say the one person who I vividly remember is Jacob Agart, who was one of my, I had, he was a coach of mine, not, not a serious coach, but we had a training camp, and he wrote a post about our training camp, and he, he spoke to my talent, and he wrote a very, very nice message about how much I impressed him in our training camp, and how he thought all these accusations were completely insane because he had seen my, my gift and my talent, you know, himself. Wow. So you really had to think about someone. That's crazy. I mean, and I think that was like months after. Yeah. Now you said the public opinion swayed in your favor though, right? Among, I mean, with regards to the Sinkful Cup and the legitimacy of my over the board strength, I would say it's completely swayed. However, and among top test players as well. However, you know, the, the, these accusations were amplified to such a degree that there are people who just like, only read one thing and then they think that's a fact forever. And they never really were around for the, my success and comeback. So they have no idea, you know, I feel like that's the most of the population in general. They just read headlines, right? And then exactly. So there's like, you know, millions upon millions of people in the world who just read one headline and, and they associate my name with that. And that could never be changed, you know, so I just have to choose something 10 times bigger. Yeah. So that's the only solution. Well, I'll be rooting for you, man. I did want to talk about your company and game.ai. I was playing around with that site. What's that about? Yeah, it's a chess platform. You can, you can play chess. You have like a custom like AI chess coach coming. So that could be help good for your improvement. Like you can analyze your games, you can ask my positions. Like it'll basically assess all your games. So that's something that you should, I mean, you should check out personally. We might have some interesting, like high stakes matches on there. I don't know how much you're into crypto or all that stuff. I'm heavy into crypto. Yeah. So, you know, we've asked some interesting new features. I think what we're going to work on is going to be very unique in the chess world. And I want, you know, I want to make chess like the UFC. I want to bring the personalities. I want to have chess and a boxing gym. I mean, a boxing arena, maybe, maybe, maybe maybe in Vegas. So yeah, yeah, chess boxing without the boxing part. But, you know, I think we're trying to revolutionize chess. You know, we raised a metric capital. We've got a great technical team. So, you know, we're kind of, I call it the sort of the chess resistance. You know, the chess mafia has done a lot of terrible things and is a monopoly and doesn't really care about the game. So, you know, our principles are sort of, you know, we care about the game of chess first. We want to support the professional chess ecosystem. We want to provide a really high quality service and the not charged ridiculous amount and have a lot of stuff available for free. So people can improve respect. When you say they don't care about the game, what do you mean by that? I mean, they kind of pretend to be stewards of the game, but, you know, they've been cutting down on their prize money for their events. They bought out, they routinely buy out companies and then shut them down just so they kill their competitor. Like they bought Magnus's company to play Magnus Group for 82 million. And then they shut down all these amazing companies. Like they bought this publishing house and they just didn't want to run it. So they just like gave it away for free. I mean, like they just don't, they don't care about the game. For them, chess is just a vehicle to make money. And for me as a chess player, who deeply cares about the ecosystem and the entire, the coaches, the players, the kids, it's an entire, you know, the scholastics, an entire ecosystem. And it's important to me that there's fair competition so that, you know, everyone is, you know, receives opportunities and people can make a living from chess, you know, whether it's a coach player or, you know, content creator. That's interesting. When I saw the documentary, they were interviewing the chess.com guys. One of the founders said he believes the company's worth close to a billion. I actually thought that was low. I thought it was low. I would say it's probably around two. Yeah, that felt super low to me when he said that. Yeah, I mean, they're all, yeah, they're not really into like, they didn't raise much of a capital. So their valuation's multiple is probably a bit lower. But yeah, I would say that one's quick. I would say 1.5 to 2. Yeah. If you see an opportunity there to kind of eat at that market share with this, yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, we've received, you know, backing from some of the best venture capitalists and huge firms. So, you know, we've got resources and a great team. And, you know, for us, it's just to make a great product that people enjoy. And, you know, I mean, from, from there, that's all you can do and try to scale it as much as possible. Absolutely. What else is next for you, man? Just competing a lot just competing a lot. I'm playing in going to Warsaw, then competing in Belgrade. I don't know how many fans you have out there, but I don't even know. Yeah, Belgrade is the capital of Serbia. Any Serbian fans off a big match in Belgrade, you can come watch. You'll be open to the public. Nice. Yeah. That's just a, it's not a tournament. It's a tournament I'm hosting. It's a one on one match against Jan Nepalmnuschi. He was, he was the world championship challenger twice. Yeah, I know him. Yeah. Nice. So yeah, we'll play a match against him and then against Jordan Benforist, who's then like a top 15 player in the world as well. Must be hard for you to find matches in the, in America these days. Well, yeah, it's hard to plan it with the players, but you know, you do your best. Yeah. Well, Hans, thanks for your time, man. We'll link everything. We'll link the documentary. This was fun, man. Good luck to you for the rest of your time. Thank you so much. Okay. Take care. Bye-bye. See you. Thanks for watching to the end, guys. Please comment below your thoughts on the episode. If you agree, if you disagree, I'd love to hear it. I read every single comment means a lot to me. Thank you so much. In business, I'm always trying to get the best outcome for the best price. So it's kind of crazy. I haven't looked at my life insurance in years. I don't even know if what I'm paying is competitive or if I have enough coverage with how things have changed. That's why I started looking into select quote for over 40 years. They've helped more than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their whole model is simple. They shop around to find you the right policy for your specific needs so you're not overpaying or under covered. Their licensed agents work for you in as little as 15 minutes. They compare policies from top-rated carriers to find something that fits your health and your budget and they do it for free. No medical exam, no problem. You could get same-day coverage up to $2 million. And if you've got preexisting conditions, they've got options for that, too. Get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50% as select quote.com slash dsh. Save more than 50% on term life insurance at select quote.com slash dsh to day to get started that's select quote.com slash dsh. I don't know who needs to hear this, but a lot of people are still getting wrecked by their bank. Monthly fees, overdraft fees, paying just to use your own money, it makes no sense. That's why I've been looking into Chime. Chime is changing the way people bank. It's fee-free banking built for you, not the bank. No overdraft fees, no monthly fees, and access to thousands of fee-free ATMs like why are you paying to get your own money? And it's not just about avoiding fees. There are real benefits with direct deposit. You unlock the most rewarding way to bank with members seeing up to $1,150 in annual rewards. You could get 5% cashback on everyday categories like gas or groceries and savings that grow way faster with a 3.75% APY. They've also got features like spot me, which lets you overdraft up to $200 with no fees and real customer support, actual humans 24 seven. Honestly, my younger self would have benefited from something like this. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking fee free today. Head to chime.com slash dsh. That's chime.com slash dsh. It only takes a few minutes to sign up.