Maye Day Maye Day? MVP and Every NFL Award

welcome back to the munich i'm show featuring lenny only nfo podcast one of the hosts has to mvp outside that's lenny i'm munich i'm uh and that voice you might have heard a soft chuckle he's been on the show before he is the voice of the rams do you get that's what people call you right? If you do the Rams play by play, you're the voice of the Rams. A voice of the Rams would have given you a good guffaw for that joke off the top. So I'm already over one, but it's good to be back with you. Although the last time I think we were preparing for a Superbowl. So it came up just short this time. Congratulations to your Seattle. JB long is, is the name. He does the Rams. He, you do a lot of different things. You do call it. You are like very much part of the Mean and Com Show universe because you also do college football with the great Mike Goley Jr. who just defeated me in the team draft. The results came in. The Super Bowl doesn't even matter. I'm thinking about redoing the scoring system. Whatever. That's another issue. I asked JB to come on specifically for this pod, I think a month ago, because in preparing all of my notes and thoughts for my votes, MVP, Offensive Player of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, Coach of the Year, all those which we're going to talk about today, I agonized over several categories involving Rams, right? Offensive Player of the Year, and then, of course, MVP. I have said publicly, ultimately, I was asked about it, and I did reveal already that I voted for Drake May at the very end. It's a regular season award. But I found it to be a very close and fascinating debate, and I thought there's nobody who knows the Rams better than J.B. Long. And we're also going to talk about, obviously, Puka Nakua, which is another category that was even closer for me, to be honest, than this, the MVP one. That one was, I think I changed JB. We'll talk about it when we get to it. But I think I changed my Offensive Player of the Year vote like every few days between him and JSN. Spoiler alert. Like it was that close for me. That's all really good stuff. I've been looking forward to this for a while. Thank you for the invitation. It's not too long ago that you and I were in Cleveland for preseason three watching Shador take 24-yard sacks, and now, lo and behold, he's a pro bowler. So NFL life comes at you quickly. Little did we know that the pro bowler on the field that day would be on the Cleveland Browns. Actually, two players who impressed me in that game are going to come up today. Tanner Engel? No. Carson Swessinger, I imagine. uh yeah no the um the browns rookies uh nonchador actually but we're actually very very good this year um all right let's just rip the band-aid and start with mvp because so we're gonna go we're gonna start with the mvp then do offensive player of the year defensive player of the year uh and then we're gonna do coach of the year which is another great this this is kind of like the coach of the super bowl by the way which i think is fascinating assistant coach of the year which is a nerdy category that i love every year because it gives us the opportunity to like really drill into scheme lords and future head coaches offensive and defensive rookie of the year okay so mvp before we get into it's a two-man race let's be real but the finalists were actually different from my finalists jb so the finalists were obviously stafford and may who we're going to spend most of time talking about but also uh josh allen christian mccaffrey and trevor lawrence I actually only had one of those players. I did not have two of them. Can you guess who is the one that I had? You had McCaffrey in there? McCaffrey, yeah. You got it. Yeah, I didn't have Josh Allen or Trevor Lawrence. I mean, it all comes out anyways. It's not like the Belichick Hall of Fame vote. This will be disclosed. I had Miles Garrett and Justin Herbert. good for you for including a defensive player uh if you have room for five i feel like that should be more normal than exceptional i i was just really trying to think like who impacted their team the most and exhibited dominance and i thought herbert to me was just like this team would not have won as many games without him not that you know obviously alan and trevor lawrence were had great seasons as well but i just felt like he was so obviously the thing holding it together by a thread that he ended up getting a vote for me. I imagine I'll get some blowback for that, especially because of the postseason. It's a regular season award. I don't know how many times I've said that. But a lot of what you said holds true of McCaffrey and that San Francisco 49ers team too. So I think it kind of begs the question for you as a voter off the top, how did you define valuable? And is it the same year to year? Yeah, it's a great question. And for me, okay, so I'll walk you through my process and then we can pick it apart or talk about. so first just dominance who is the best right um most outstanding most outstanding player right because the value is tough too because it obviously overweighs the quarterback position this is the thing we just every year it ends up being quarterback for this reason uh so just who was the best and actually answering that question you talk about quarterbacks is very difficult because it's a very contextual position. Surroundings matter, opponent matter, but just on its face, statistically, a big part of the reason why I ended up voting for May was statistically, I thought he was the best quarterback in football this year. He was first in EPA per dropback, success rate, QBR, first in completion percentage, despite having the fourth highest average at the target, which is pretty rare, a combination of things, right? Because usually quarterbacks with higher completion percentages are bolstered by not throwing the ball downfield as much. He was first in the next-gen stat completion percentage over expected, which we nerds like to look at because at NGS, in amassing that stat, what they're doing is basically assessing the difficulty of throws based on the positioning of players and defenders or whatever. Not only was he first in that metric, according to NGS, it was the single best single season CPOE by a quarterback since they created it in 2016. I thought he also added with his legs in a way that was a little bit decisive for me. He was six in court rushing yards amongst quarterback fifth and first downs. And he was first under pressure, first under or second kept clean, first and most meaningful stats outside of, of course, touchdowns. touchdowns right which is a big factor for Stafford Stafford in a lot of those metrics is very good he's top three or four in pretty much all of them except for CPOE but I don't punish him too much for that because Patrick Mahomes when he was playing you know when he was the best quarterback in football quite clearly also would finish a little bit lower in CPOE because the scheme was good and the players were good so just because the quarterback isn't super high in CPOE doesn't mean they're not good it might just mean that they play in a really sick offense like Matthew Stafford does. So for me, the CPOE mentioned JB was more like, wow, that's a point for May as opposed to me like punishing Matthew Stafford for that stat. So that's let's just focus before we get to all the circumstances, whatever. That was just me like, okay, let's just put high level. Yep. I have questions. Heavy. I'm ready. I feel like it's my role in this show to kind of put you on the stand and cross examine. Listeners, this is a big part of why I asked JB because I didn't want to be just sitting here agreeing with someone the entire time about the argument. Yeah. I am going to do my level best though, not to make any case against Drake may for lots of reasons, because I think he's incredibly deserving. Big fan of his. I also don't want any Patriots fans in my mentions for the next week. I've already. Oh, they're so nice. Never set with you. But here's my, here's my opening salvo. These are just a couple of jabs and then we'll get into the haymakers. Okay. In your heart of hearts. if the Rams win in overtime in week 16 in Seattle, are we having this conversation? Are you voting against the one seed, the number one offense in football and the quarterback who is the animating force? Well, you're going up against the one seed. It is more competitive for sure. Right. Because, um, yes, I would, for some reasons that I haven't gotten to ultimately it, which is actually more about value than outstanding. that actually proved to be the divisive decisive i do think if that happened as you said and you know those like special teams don't go a certain way or whatever a two-point conversion isn't picked up in the end zone right exactly then i think the who was the more outstanding quarterback is a lot is a dead heat for sure um i actually it's funny because i didn't even mention wins and winning the division and seeding and all of that that does factor into my thinking It's a little bit less so, though, because it is a team sport. And that is where the whole schedule part of this gets into it, right? Like the Patriots path towards the team results was a lot easier than the Rams who play in the hellscape known as the NFC West. You know, what's interesting about raising schedule is that's actually where I bailed on the data points and the analytics of it. Really? I got to the threshold where I had created my shortlist and it was down to two. And I thought that there were very good data points, many of which you laid out in favor of May. And I think there's plenty which probably favor Stafford more in the PFF universe that I could argue back at you. But there was a juncture, I remember, because I did all the deep dives, I read all the think pieces, listen to all the podcasts. And then there was a divergence between strength of schedule based on DVOA and EPA. I think it was. And I'm like, wait a second, there are trusted minds that I like to listen to and draw knowledge from and trusted metrics that don't agree here. Can I really make a final answer based on those conflicting data points? And if so, why don't we just run the formula every year, as opposed to like, let's get our shortlist and then use our eyes, our ears, our heart and our gut to vote and see where 50 votes drop. the the strength of schedule part you so so i really like i'm glad you brought that up because there was a lot of debate over what we should be looking like how do you even define strength of schedule right like epa um doesn't account for the quality of opponent like dvoa does however and and bill barnwell did a good job breaking this down the patriot schedule while very easy was much easier on defense than it was on offense and jb that actually ended up being a point for against mike rabel for coach of the year for me more than it did against may and bill pointed this out i'm just borrowing his work that when you actually compared the schedules the past defenses they faced as well as the common opponents things sort of settled a bit where neither quarterback had like a significant advantage in that regard. Before I get to the other, the value piece of this for May, I do want to ask you, like you mentioned the, so PFF grades, I'm pretty sure had Stafford higher than May over the course of the season. That's correct, right? Correct. And I think you can pick out what PFF does well and what they do not as well. I think grading quarterbacks, they do very well and have for many years. And he was their number one graded quarterback. He also led the NFL in wins above replacement more than half a win clear of the next player. All the metrics supported it. Big time throw percentage, raw big time throw, average depth of target, turnover worthy plays. And to your point about strength of schedule, at least their top 10 defenses, Stafford played six games against their top 10 defenses. 15 touchdowns, two picks, 19 big time throws, more than three per game. The other metrics I looked at that tilted Stafford, towards Stafford, his ability to avoid sacks. Now, a lot of that, some of that has to do with the offensive lines, which I'm going to bring up. And some of it has to do with the fact that Drake May is just more, he's a dual threat quarterback, right? And dual threat quarterbacks tend to take more sacks. But those are negative plays. They do matter. Neither quarterback through a ton of turnovers or anything like that. And then the touchdowns, which it does matter. So while we're being acquiescent here, I do not buy the whole one-yard touchdown. I know some Patriots fans were like, a lot of those touchdowns were at the one-yard line. So this actually cuts to the core, JB, of one of my key football philosophies, which is you know I hate – I don't know if you – you know this. I despise the goal line fade. I have it written down in front of me. Ask Mina, what's the worst play in football? Oh, you know me so well. Who made it fun again this year? But also, okay, so why I hate the goal line fade is it's not a high success rate play. Now, coaches like it because it's a one-on-one. We like our guy. You're unlikely to – it's unlikely something bad happens, right? And you could also get an interference call. I understand that. But it's a low probability play because it is quietly not easy. so just because you're at the one yard line if you're throwing a fade to davante adams and the placement is perfect that's a that's a reflex on the quarterback so i yeah so you you knew you knew right away that is not something that factors to me um stafford also finished higher in dvoa than drake may which accounts for schedule and we talked about the schedule obviously so you know that matters as well I think they threw the exact same number of yeah they both threw eight interceptions by the way so perfectly even that regard um so okay to go back to kind of my general thought process statistically on its face while I do think Stafford slightly harder strength to schedule even when you equalize things in terms of the defense's face the past defense is faced and I think the touchdowns do matter and I do like that he didn't take sacks most advanced stats do favor Drake May in this regard but ultimately for me it was actually a value thing a value issue insofar as when I considered the teams around them I ended up, that was kind of like the deal breaker for me. So Drake May, the New England Patriots this year, fourth in pass DVOA, very good. 27th in run DVOA, 29th in rushing success rate over the course of the season. The Rams were a goddamn wagon on the ground this year. Unbelievably efficient. I actually think at one point they had like the highest success rate ever running the full. Is that right, JB? You would know this. Historically good. but Matthew did not get enough credit for that at any point and still doesn't. Don't you think? Because teams were, you think they were able to run the ball because teams were afraid of Matthew. Is what you're saying? I mean, that's always been life. I think it's valid. Yeah. Right. Like you're okay. You know what? Let me pull this up because I, I bet you're right. And I bet the Rams faced more light boxes than most teams, which is a great counter to the like, okay, they are good at running the football. Yeah. But they were good at running the football. I think historically that's been the narrative of the Sean McVay running game and the way that he marries it. This year, I think it probably may have been skewed differently because of the way they got into their multiple tight end sets. So this may be the exception that proves the rule. But I think the point still stands, their ability to threaten you vertically and Matthew's willingness to attack. So I want to push back on the completion above expectation a little bit. and I think it's a valid data point, but if I were to sort the top 25 most jaw-dropping throws of the NFL season, you know, the ones that go viral within the tape dog community, the do not try this at home throws, how many were Stafford's versus his competition? They made some of those too, though, man. Not that you didn't. Not that you didn't. I know, you're totally right. I just think there's a game-recognized game component where if you took the NFL's quarterback community, either the current active quarterbacks or the all-time greats who pay attention, what percentage of them do you think vote for Stafford this year? I think he probably wins within that community, personally. He is one of the all-time... I've always said this about him. He is your favorite football player's favorite quarterback. And I said this after the... By the way, the timing of this could not be worse for me, coming off of Matthew Stafford going absolutely nuclear on arguably the league's best defense and Drake May struggling in the postseason. Yeah, but you're in the Super Bowl. Yeah, well, but I'm just being for the sake of this argument. I know I just started, but it's a regular season award, guys. Nothing that's happened. I realize we're both talking about this after, but we are talking about weeks one through 18. So just, you know, nobody can point to things that happen in the playoffs. um yeah but i said something after the seahawks game which is i always bring this up but kyle hamilton who is you know one of my favorite defensive players to talk to in the whole world a couple summers ago i asked him about the um game against the rams which was you know one of my favorite games the one where matthew and lamar were just going back toe to toe it's it's honestly like if i'm ever sad i'll just put that game on and you know hamilton was like yeah staffer's one of my favorite quarterbacks to watch he makes throws where you don't even feel bad as a defender and I walked walking back I was texting you watching back the Seahawks game trying to figure out why the Seahawks gave so many explosives up it wasn't like wow they got out schemed it was just outrageous throws and outrageous catches which get to that part a second so I totally agree with you by the way though the light boxes thing actually it's about the same this year to your point probably skewed by the Rams. So I do think you're, you're not wrong, but we do have to acknowledge discrepancy in the run game here. The Rams run game was, even though they certainly benefited from the receivers and the quarterback, it was magnificent on its own. Um, I think the Rams offensive line is much better than new England's. Um, and then, and then the defense again, I know we're coming off of like a pretty bad stretch for the Rams defense, but during the regular season, this was statistically a top five or top 10 unit no matter how you slice it they actually finished third in defensive duet which is kind of wild things fell apart a little bit at the end but this is we're talking about the regular season and the patriots defense the flip they've been great in the playoffs but they were bad you forget like for most of the regular season which is ultimately why they finished 28th in defensive dvoa and i think that also reflects the quality of the opponents because they were bad and they faced a lot of backups and bad quarterbacks or whatever. So JB, that was kind of like another thing that swung me here, which was Stafford's got the great run game and a good defense. The Patriots have neither. And so I was kind of like when we think that was that setting aside the outstanding this gets to the value part I was thinking about it from like a value perspective I was like oh this Patriots team is actually pretty flawed or was during the regular season Yeah, I think it's a fair argument. I think the Rams achievement on offense collectively more than offsets it. And I think there's a lot of context and narrative arc coloring outside the lines to Stafford season that I wonder if it sways you at all. and how much you did or didn't consider it. Here's an anecdote, okay? Here's something that I can bring fresh to your show. And maybe this is something, maybe it's nothing. Two years ago, summer two years ago, remember the 23 Rams were playing out of the pistol all of a sudden a lot, right? It was how they got to some of their favorite running concepts. And so I asked Matthew, start, bench, cut. Shotgun, pistol, under center, okay? Because he had won a Super Bowl. I'm like, spread, shotgun, Madden, let's go. he started shotgun, he benched pistol, he cut under center. What is his MVP caliber season look like here in 2025? Dropbacks from under center, 250 of them for 28 touchdowns, one pick a hundred more under center dropbacks than any of his prior Ram season. So like his ability to do what he's always done, but do it differently or do it in a different ecosystem is worth something to me. He also played, I think, two MVP seasons within one. You look at his first five games, no offense in the league was more rigid than the Rams. Puka had 62 targets. Devontae had 46. Combined nearly 22 targets per game over a month. They built a Ferrari and they were going to drive that thing. But then Puka gets hurt in game six and they pivot to 13. I don't know how you could possibly oversell the trust and confidence that Sean McVay and Michael Fleur have in Stafford to do something like that, to say, we're going to practice at Camden Yards, we're going to take a red eye to London, and on one sleep we need you to shred the Jaguars with Colby Parkinson, rookie Terrence Ferguson, who's been a healthy scratch, and seventh-round pick Kanate Mumfield. Doesn't blink. Maybe that's not relevant or germane for the VP conversation, but I think the fact that he didn't have a training camp and ran both of those offenses to near perfection it informs the season and i think it would be a shame to not take that into consideration well you brought up something that i think is a really important point as well which is the ability to throw to people not name devontae adams apucuticua because i think that the other thing that will be brought up a lot is the difference in the quality of the pass catchers and i think that's a fair argument right like yes steph digs has had an awesome season he's a 32-year-old coming off of the ACL. That's their number one receiver with a bullet. And then it's some combination of Booty, Douglas, Hollins, the tight ends, who are all fine. Booty's been awesome in the postseason. And then people say, well, Matthew Stafford has the possible offensive player of the year in Buka Nakua and Devontae Adams. But would you say, first of all, Devontae Adams missed some games, so there's that, as did Nakua missed one, two? Niku missed like one and a half. You know, he was dinged up in Baltimore and set out the Jags game in London. But I'd love to hear your kind of response, because that's the thing you're going to hear a lot as well. And it did wade into my thinking, right, is the supporting cast aspect of this. Sure. What would you say is, like from the Rams' perspective, like the counter to that? I would say some of the names I mentioned. Career years for guys like Colby Parkinson. Yeah. and I would say zoom out a little bit and look at it from 30,000 feet and think about the king maker nature of this quarterback the season that he's had with Megatron the triple crown season of Cooper Cup 2021 now to your point the Puka season here that might be offensive player the year worthy Devante Adams leading the NFL by a wide margin in touchdown receptions despite missing the final three games. Who's the through line in all of that? Yes, he's surrounded by great talent, but look at how he elevates all of them. Isn't this why it's so hard to isolate quarterback play, right? Like it's so hard because, you know, you point to the receiver is now amazing, but then it's like, well, if Matthew, if Puka Nakua, he is now the case study for like, who's the next Puka Nakua? Can any team ever find that? But if Puka Nakua gets drafted by 31 other teams, and I would say too, with Nakua, it's not just Stafford, it's the coach. I think he landed with the coach who was just simply, he was like built in a lab to play in Sean McVay's offense. But, you know, having a quarterback who can rip the backside dig every time, and that happens to be where you feast as a receiver, it can be hard to separate those two things. I completely agree with that. So I think there's definitely some veracity to that. I will readily admit I'm too close to it. There's a reason I want the Rams helmet in my background. But in the narrative arc of the 25 season, I just firmly believe that Stafford played an outsized role. Whether it's a league-wide trend to 12 and 13 to punish sub-packages, like who embodied the zeitgeist of this season more than Matthew Stafford? Is it too soft to say, well, he could have started the season on injured reserve and instead he hopped in that immortal chamber and there were conspiracy theories about whether he's even still alive and somehow his clone has an MVP season. Maybe none of that matters. Maybe it's more just the cut and dry data that you led the show with that'll carry the day. But I don't think it's a bad concrete summation of Matthew's MVP case to say he was the animating force of a historically efficient offense that led the league in scoring and he consistently and repeatedly made team and NFL history along the way. And if you want to play the video game on its highest degree of difficulty, I know and you know what that level is. It's the Seattle defense. And I can't take last week into account, but it mirrors up pretty well with 457 and three touchdowns and no turnovers. I mean, that's he he had some less than moments, too. But his high was pretty high. It was. That's one thing I find really fascinating about him. Right. He's like his worst games weren't actually against the best defenses. just kind of weird kind of makes it hard to net it out um I got dragged by Patriots Twitter because when you guys were playing the Falcons I put out the Falcons defense I think I wrote something like the league's best quarterback Stafford Allen and May all struggled against the Falcons defense it was meant to be a praise for the Falcons defense like he didn't play as bad as Matthew Stafford I was like I wasn't trying to like equate them but I didn't realize at that point in the season everything was mvp to people i was literally just trying to make a point about but you know it is odd that like to watch that game and then to watch the or even the panthers which is the game matthew would be the first person to say was not his best game and then to watch him then against the seahawks defense both in week 16 which does count for this debate and the wild card but i was like honestly jb i i like first i was like is it just something about the seahawks defense where has their number or McVay does. But going back and watching it, that wasn't my take. I wasn't like this is a, it wasn't a matchup issue. For some reason, he just went nuclear in both of those games. Yeah. I want to touch on Carolina Atlanta real quickly, because those are kind of the underbelly of his MVP candidacy. They both play the NFC South people. So that is, does come up the as common opponents. the three turnover game at Carolina is is one of the reasons why they were not the one seed and played last weekend in Seattle but in that game in that game he threw his 28th consecutive touchdown without an interception breaking Tom Brady's record eight games nearly 320 attempts so I think that has to be you know married in lockstep with three turnover performance there Atlanta do you remember who's playing left tackle in that game I don't want to I don't want to name drop it was not it was not Allerick Jackson let's say anyone who wants to go look it up can look it up and anyone who wants to go look at the grade for that position in that game can look it up I do think there were some extenuating circumstances I think having their hearts ripped out in Seattle the Thursday night prior played into that and even still since you mentioned the low points what stands out to me about both of those losses is how high this the floor was how high the foundation was because of Matthew Stafford because he still had it in his right hand with a chance to go win those games on the last drive despite turning it over three times in each. Yeah, I kind of over the course of the season, and this came up when I was talking about Josh Allen, Lamar, I didn't feel like the lows were low enough to discredit her. It's more so that I'm just like, the hell is it about him in Seattle? Because you could argue those were his two best games of the entire season. We're against the best defense of the NFL. Yeah, like, look, I think, I kind of think Stafford's going to win. We'll see. This is coming out tomorrow. There's a lot of a week until it, just because of the way all pros shook out. And also because May was a finalist for OPOY, why, which made me think voters split. And I'm not going to be, I'm going to say the same thing that I did last year. I genuinely think either of these two choices is fine. I felt that way about Josh Allen and Lamar. Ultimately I voted for Lamar. I voted for May here for the reasons that I laid out. I am not going to be up in arms about this or really most of these, except for like, obviously if defensively play of the year, it was, it doesn't go Garrett. That's just crazy. But I think like to me, it just kind of came down to what I laid out the stats, the value piece, the surrounding cast. But there's one thing I will say, one more thing about the surrounding cast, even though I do think that tilts Stafford's reasons and we're about to talk about the biggest reason why, which is the guy who I voted for Raphons Play of the Year. Spoiler. I will say it is unfair to say Drake May was playing with scrubs. Stephon Diggs was excellent this season. Really good. And so one of the big stats where May actually finished way ahead of Stafford was tight window completion rate downfield. and some of that is just the nature of the offense, right, with the way the Rams play. But some of it is also big digs and booty, making a lot of really difficult catches. Now, May, I thought, was a gorgeous deep ball thrower this year, so he, I think, gets the bulk of the credit for that. But Svondeggs led the league in yards per route run this year. He was awesome. He's not Pukunikua, though. He is not Pukunikua, and let's transition to talking about him. Let's do it. Okay, so I had different finalists here as well. The five finalists for Offensive Player of the Year, ultimately, pull that up, were Puka, JSN, Bijan, CMC, and Drake May. I'm glad to hear Bijan's name in there because the Rams went up against Gibbs and the Lions. The Rams went up against McCaffrey and the 49ers. And there was not an individual on an opposing film that I studied that struck more fear than Robinson. And boy, did that ever play out on Monday Night Football. Led the league in scrimmage yards. Okay, so I think this is a top three argument, so we can narrow this go. You do. You think it's a group of three. It's not just a clear two? I think it's a clear two, but I wouldn't. If somebody was like, I voted for B. John Robinson because he led the league in scrimmage yards and he was the obvious, like without him, that offense, they didn't have a consistent passing game. I wouldn't, you know. To me, though, you have two receivers who were just so dominant and were able to just do so much more in terms of explosive plays. I think it should be one of them pretty clearly, but I agree with you. Robinson, I mean, just my God. CMC, you know, for me, the reason I got even an MVP vote was more about like the value. Like I just think he is when you watch the Niners, he is the thing that makes it go. And that was the top five offense, you know, by the end of the year, despite all the injuries. Drake May again. So, well, let's talk about this really quickly. How do you feel about quarterbacks getting offensive player of the year votes generally? Disqualified until someone not playing that position wins MVP. Then we can bring it back on the table. Totally. I do not. the idea that it's like a consolation prize which i suspect is why we'll see how this plays out is silly and because mvp is always goes to quarterbacks and we can dispute whether or not that's fair it reflects value i think it is really lame to say a quarterback should also win offensive player of the year with lamar you know like i just i just don't agree with it at all I actually had James Cook as my fifth nominee. Wait, so that actually leads me to a question that was kind of percolating. I think position value makes it easy to trim this conversation to JSN and Puka, which I believe you and I ultimately will do. But given the crop of running backs that you just mentioned and a few more that we could go beyond, is that narrative changing? like if if cmc gets an mvp vote from you at running back and bajon gets one at offensive player of the year and you're saying the predicate for that is their value to their team then their position can't be irrelevant clearly and the way they're playing it those are two players who are big parts of the passing game right correct and i think for me too though those two players what they have in common is like when you watch them on tape you see the gravity like they in the same way that with jsn and puka you just watch defenses completely altered the way they play because of their presence either as a running back or as a pass catcher um i actually you know i think cook to a lesser degree as well i felt this way about but yeah it's i think a running back could win from and obviously a running back has won recently if there was no dominant receiver but unfortunately for Robinson and CMC, there were two extremely dominant receivers who, I mean, this is just, whoo. Like I said, I went back and forth every day because it was so close between. I'm surprised. Mina, I'm surprised. Really? Okay, tell me why you're surprised. That was your hardest category. Really? Because I think it's Puka even if all we were allowed to talk about is pass catching. who had the best pure receiving season and the conversation there i still feel good about voting puka do you not uh statistically jsn has a really strong case strong case but there's plenty in puka's column yes so i'll let me rattle off some of these for people jsn led in receiving yards uh yards per route run very barely came down barely but he played an extra game so he played an extra game so if you do like yards per game and scrimmage yards but total counting stats jsn And he led the league in target share amongst receivers. He was an absolute target monster in that Seahawks offense. He also had a 0.6% drop rate. So he was pretty automatic catching the football. So he has those points in his favor. Pucas was higher though, but Pucas has to do, make more difficult catches. So you consider that Pucas. So, but they tied to receiving touchdowns. Pucas also had a rushing touchdown and then Pucas had more rushing yards than JSN, which ultimately was the final thing for me. Puka had more first downs. He led the league in first downs. He had a 78% catch rate, which was higher than JSN, despite not having a particularly low average depth of target. He led the league in yards after the catch. He was second in contested catch rate, which, again, is the drops rate factor. He didn't drop a lot, but JSN had more open targets. Now you could also argue, well, he's an amazing art runner. That's probably the reason why he's open so much. And then finally, Puka had the 105 rushing yards, which was third amongst all wide receivers this year. So, like I said, I thought it was extremely close. The reason why I ultimately went Puka, though, was the first downs, I thought, the contributions of the runs. And then when I just really felt like catches this season that made my jaw drop and took my breath away, which is not a statistic at all. I just could identify more of them for Puka Dekua. But, JB, it was really freaking close to me. Yeah, I don't want to discount how close it was and how good JSN was. And I want to finish there in terms of like a forward-looking question as I texted you earlier today, because I think that's as important as this conversation we're having here. But just to counterbalance a lot of really good cases that you made for JSN, Puka's the highest wide receiver graded in PFF history. single game and season long did it both this year epa by a lot if i'm not mistaken epa like the best season of a generation he had the volume he had the efficiency and and what about closing stretch like if you want to at all overweight the win it matters most only two players in league history have gone for 165 in three straight games they're both rams puka and isaac puka had a stretch deep in the year with 573 total including a head-to-head against the seattle seahawks so that that was actually the one that that finally i i was like i'm gonna stick with this because and now he's done two games but to do that to go because he just destroyed the seahawks in week 16 without davante without davante against that defense everybody know he was getting the foot 200 yards, right? Am I misremembering that? In overtime, but yes, in like a 41-yard game winner, that should have been. Because I went back and, I know it could have been the sickest catch of all time, because I went back and watched that game to prepare for the playoff game. And just watching it, I was just laughing. I mean, he was just so unbelievable in that game. Now, you can even argue, Jay said it was better in this game, but hey, it doesn't matter. Playoffs don't matter. Before I lose the thread on the jaw-dropping catches, which I think matters if you're looking for tiebreakers. I would also contend that Puka had more death-defying catches wiped off the board than any player in football. He had some sensational catches. His highlight reel is incredible, but just that Atlanta game alone, he had a high point. As somebody who had Puka Nakua and the lead in fantasy football, it was going up against Bijan Robinson. I am all too aware of the yards that were wiped off the board in that goddamn Atlanta game. I had the lead JB I would have won if those counted I am I'm sorry to to strike that nerve but I do feel like the whose plays were more indelible I think that's a big check mark in Puka's column uh it's funny because I think obviously when we did at the NFL honors they'll play like the highlights and we'll see some of the crazy catches the Cardinals I mean just some really and and i think the other thing i i mean they both took such leap steps forward but i'm going to say something really nerdy that is the other thing not nerdy but like you obviously not to you but i talked earlier about how the rams have the most efficient run game in football he a big part of that he is arguably the best or one of the three best blocking materials in football and it's offensive player of the year so that was like that's why i was surprised to hear that this was a top final call because i have it i have it in italics in my notes here a football muse who i listened to devotedly once said that the rams have the most efficient running game in football and nakua is a big part of the reason why he gets his hands dirty in a way that very few other receivers frankly do in the nfl there's a unnamed coach on the seahawks who once i was talking to and i can't remember if it was after this game or a different game but we were texting about Nakua killing you guys. He said to me, it's like a goddamn linebacker out there. And you know where you see that? This is part of the running game stat that you mentioned, which as a rusher, like better than eight yards per carry, two touchdowns. But the jet sweeps to Puka, that's the Rams got to have it crutch. And does it really matter how you get in the hands of your best playmaker, runner pass? No. JSN gets it in other ways. but I think those bonus stats in the run game do put him over the top, break any tie. In addition to his, like you said, are there three receivers who are better blockers than him? I don't think so. And none of them are as integral to their offense as Puka. Sean McVay and Michael for literally built this offense around his viability as a blocker. And we saw that from week one through 16 through NFC championship game weekend. He probably has the most hidden yards of any player in football. And not even just runs, screens, sometimes in pass. But he's just so physical, and it just completely changes what they're able to do on the ground. Do you feel better about it now? Yeah, I do. I don't know why I do so much at the blocking because it was in my notes. I wrote run, blocking, adding to that. But I did agonize over it because Jason was phenomenal this season. But I'll say about Puka what I said on NFL Live at the end of the year. I don't think we, as the NFL commentary yet, give enough credit to the fact that the best blocking receiver in football has also become one of the best premier deep threats. That doesn't happen. That's an insane combination of skill sets. His evolution this year from being already one of the best receivers, but the leap he took on throws over 20 yards this season was crazy in terms of separation, the hands, body control. So I think there's a story there too that is kind of... We didn't do this category, but if he wanted to do most improved, he would be in my top three as well. And I think there's this perfect amalgamation of the lessons that he's learned from, shout out Eric Yarber, receiver coach for the Rams, but Cooper Cup and Devontae Adams and borrowing some of the best ingredients that they were willing to share with him and morphing it into one now generational receiver. And sorry if I'm jumping the gun. Feel free to throw your final thoughts on this debate. But who gets the bigger extension? Who goes first this offseason? Oh, God. They're both going to make an ungodly amount of money. And they're both going to be watching each other. Their agents, rather, are going to be. Yeah. But in terms of their operations and their future within their offensive systems, well i yeah whose game is going to age better different discussion too puka takes so much contact you know it's a it's a whole it's a whole thing but they're they're clearly the best first the second best receivers of football this year okay defensive player of the year requires very little discussion this one should be unanimous obviously miles garrett broke the sack record but it wasn't just like i think the thing that only thing that i will mentioned with him, JB, is that like it wasn't cheap sacks, you know, like I think sometimes when there's always going to be a few when you get those kinds of gaudy numbers. But going back and watching some of them, I mean, he's just he's just a freak. I don't know what else to say. Like he's just insane, insane football player. Some things we did sink on before this conversation. This one we did not. I went and watched the 26 plays on which he collected at least half a sack. Sounds like you did too. Here's what I charted. 12 came while trailing. Okay. So more than half his sacks came while trailing. That's crazy. Only eight of them came in what I would term and long situations. So tech second and 10 are worse. So this was not, I mean, we know this, but this was not someone who was feasting on known passing situations or favorable game scripts at all. Um, I love that stat because it also adds to the whole MVP thing right like you know he was single-handedly keeping them in games and winning the few games that they did won 30 tackles for loss 30 tackles for loss that's the thing that gets lost is that like he's not he's a front defender his game is so all around um the round the Browns defense this year I think they added some talent around him we're going to talk about one of the players you know but he you just cannot find an example of a defensive player making more of an impact in a season than what miles garrett did this year um which is a shame because will anderson jr who is probably my he was i had him second he was close man the five finalists uh were garrett anderson jr bonito hutchinson parsons um so basically just sacks people just looked at sacks but but but i do want to take a minute to acknowledge the season that anderson jr had because if not for miles garrett he would have been my choice 92 pressures which is actually first in the nfl 69 hurries he had 13 sacks um he was first in interceptions created uh he of course benefits yeah from playing with the secondary that gets those interceptions and opposite of player daniel hunter who was amazing but time and time again watching the texans defense he was the on a field full of aliens because they are absolute aliens he was the biggest alien the most impactful one so i just will let us jr is an amazing footballer i only have one criticism of will and it's bad timing yeah because in just about any non miles garrett sets the sack record season. He's your guy. One of the best cases that I saw, I think you follow Brandon Thorne and his great work. The data point that I had was a high quality pressure every eight and a half snaps. The next closest was Mike at 9.3 for Will Anderson. That's surreal. In addition to everything, he did great against the run as well. He competed against the run supremely well, which I think we always knew about him, but to see him be a viable. college. Yeah. Yeah. I also thought some players who deserve Hunter, honestly, Josh Hydes Allen really came on at the end of the year. And then people are going to accuse me of favoritism, but I am telling you Kyle Hamilton, once again, save the Ravens defense. And like, if you're just looking for pure impact in terms of a defensive player, you're never going to get the same stats playing that position, obviously. But like, And this literally, he single-handedly turns around that defense every year because of the way his versatility and the way he's used. All right, let's take a quick break, come back and do Coach of the Year because, who, buddy, this one is going down to the wire. All right, Coach of the Year. So the five finalists in this one, I think this was the only category where my picks were actually the same as the NFL picks. the five finalists for coach of the year are Mike McDonald and Mike Rabel, the two Mikes who are in the Super Bowl and Kyle Shanahan. Sorry, I'm scrolling because for some reason it's not coming up. Liam Cohen and Ben Johnson. That's right to me. Is there anyone you think deserves to be in this top five or do you think the voters got it right. You know, it's interesting. Maybe this is often the case and I don't have the year to year perspective that you do as a voter. But when I looked at the landscape of the 32 coaches, 10 are no longer with their team that matches an NFL record in terms of turnover. So we're already down to 22 candidates of those nine had losing records. So we're not voting for them. So there's like 13 names before we even start comparing resumes. And I will say of those 13 in a lot of years, I would have voted for more than half of them and felt good about it. Like gladly, like the Ben Johnsons, the Liam Cohens, the Vrabels, like Sean Payton, D'Amico Ryans, none of whom I gave serious consideration to, but all who were very impressive. And in another year, I think had a viable case. Yeah. I think if I had to add one name, Sean Payton was the name I thought deserved consideration. Yeah. Given what that team accomplished. I know everybody's still thinking about the playoff game, but if you think about the regular season, what he did, the turnaround. In that division with the quarterback that he used. Yeah, totally. So, okay, just to wipe a couple guys. So Liam Cohen, obviously Jags, great story, really turned things around. And for me, the offense actually only finished 17th in offensive EPA per play, which was actually only one better than last year. They were just awesome at the end of the season. So I think we remember that. But over the course of the year, it took a while for this thing to get going. And it got clicking, and it's great. And the future is bright in Jacksonville. By the way, they clearly hit the ball of the park with Campanile, who they get to keep, their defensive coordinator. but I just thought compared to these other coaching performances, that one was a little bit behind. Put a pin in that name that you just dropped because I want to come back to it. But to your point about kind of the way that the Jacksonville season progressed, I saw them, the Rams saw them face to face in London in the middle of the season at a dark point in their campaign. And if you had told me that Liam was going to guide this ship to the finish line the way that he did flying home from London going into the bye week, I would have been skeptical. So good on him and good on them for getting it done. Ben Johnson, you know, this is an offense that under him, obviously the Bears finishing, making it to the NFC division round, pardon me, amazing turnaround. And this coach is often a turnaround award for sure. And the offense went from, so I talked about Liam Cohen, how that offense actually statistically kind of netted similar. This offense in Chicago went from 26 in EPA per play, 26 in DBOA, to eighth and tenth. Massive, massive turnaround. He was brought in to do a job, which was fix the offense, get the quarterback on track, and he accomplished it. I think he has a really strong case and in another year, totally could have won. I just think it's not as strong as the guy spoke. You're making me realize that a lot of these strong cases are probably why there were 10 jobs turned over. Yeah. Like, you know, the impatience, the possibility of finding the next Liam Cohen or Ben Johnson is driving this. So, Ben, would you – or, jeez, Ben Johnson's in my head. JB, would you put as your final three, if you were a voter, would you go McDonald, Shanahan, Brable? Yes, but it's a two-horse race. Okay. Between? The NFC West guys. Oh, I love that. Get in here. Okay, so you're winning. Because Rabel, I kind of think he's going to win. Because this is so often a turnaround. Yeah, that's not how I treat it. That's not how I treat it. Yes, and this is, I think, one where this becomes... He's not new. That's the only reason it might not happen. Well, there's a couple reasons it might not happen. But because he was already a made man in this league, maybe that's why it doesn't happen. And because he's got an MVP... co-front runner at quarterback. Yeah. I'll be so, so you, cause you and I talk about with MVP, it's like, okay, what are the, what are we accounting for? What, what matters to us? Coach of the year, I think is where it gets a little dicier because I do think people look at it differently. It seems like overwhelmingly, it's just a turnaround award. I don't think that's, I don't think you should simply give it to the team that went from worst to first purely on those grounds. I think especially when you have two cases in McDonald and Shanahan that there's more to it than that. Kyle Shanahan this year, once again, had the most injury riddled team in the entire NFL. Once again, called a top five offense, despite not having his quarterback for much of the year, despite losing his two best players on defense, not having his number one red receiver and had them knocking on the door of making it to the amc championship mike mcdonald here the first of all it was the best team in football it finishes the best team in football and it's in the super bowl so i think he deserves credit for that and then the turnaround here was two years right um this jb people i think people don't understand how bad the seahawks defense was at the end of the peak carol era love him one of the greatest ever do it but that was a defense that you saw firsthand could not stop Sean McVay's Rams or Kyle Shanahan's offense for really several years. Mike McDonald comes in, turns it around, goes from 28th in DVOA to first in two years. I understand it's not a one-year turnaround, but to make them the best defense in football this year, I think deserves credit. Were the preseason expectations that different for the Seattle Seahawks than the New England Patriots? great point i i don't think they i mean maybe if you were to look at preseason win total i wouldn't guess by more than half a win would be my recollection um and i i think you wanted to resurface the scheduling thing for the patriots as more of a demerit for the head coach than the quarterback which i'm fine with it did remind me of something that made me chuckle yesterday which was the new england patriots 25 schedule that instead of listing teams all it said was fired coach fired coach fired coach jets nfc south fired coach fired coach fired kudos to vrabel for getting those coaches fired i'm not saying he did anything other than a fantastic job coordinator hire paid off good on you but and i think in another year he's a runaway winner but mike mcdonald made it easy for me by beating shanahan head ahead in week 18 at levi's and holding him without a touchdown because that's as good a closing argument as i can remember and I'll be honest I'm hypothetically voting here I would have had a hard time not voting for Shanahan if San Francisco given everything you had said ended up as the one seed coming out of the best division in football completely agree instead I I feel good about giving it to probably the most deserving candidate I think for this award since Sean McVay in 2017 if if if San Francisco had won that final game I would have had to give it to Kyle it's just too too insane of coaching job not to deserve some credit um by the way i looked up something you just lose you uh i just looked up this came just up on yahoo seattle and new england had the same pre-season win totals okay so like and then people say well seattle was right on the door of the playoffs last year first of all the rams didn't try in week 18 so there's that but um I really believe like a lot of, I think part of the reason McDonald isn't being fairly. Okay. I think Mike McDonald has not gotten sufficient credit for the turnaround job on defense for a couple of reasons. One is the perception that the defense was better than it was. And it just was, it was not, it was really bad. If you'll just have kind of forgotten. Cause nobody remembers anything that didn't happen more than two weeks ago. And then also that they have a lot of talent on that side of the ball and they have absolutely drafted and they have drafted well however you know this jb um they have found talent both in late and undrafted picks guys like drake thomas or linebacker playing you know in big moments okada played for much of the season i mean woolen was a late round draft pick josh jobe was a free agent pickup and then you had guys come who had amazing seasons under him and got better right um yeah i just think okay can i add defense man i don't know what to say in reflecting on this thought exercise i actually gave him more credit than i expected and you're more attuned to the seattle ecosystem than i am in terms of the choices he made before the season even kicked off like between him and john schneider like who gets credit for what i don't know but yes it is year two but he fired grubb after year one and he hired kubiak and then he empowered him look at the play sequencing the other night as they salted away that nfc championship game okay they break mina's heart and they swap out gino for sam who was giving them flowers for that choice in the offseason they trade dk and bring in a 32 year old cooper cup who had not played more than 12 games in a season since winning the triple crown they extend ernest jones they signed to Marcus Lawrence. And yeah, they acquired talent, including drafting Nick Emanwari, whose vision cast led to that decision. I would assume it's the defensive minded head coach who was brought in to derail the power structures of the Shanahan McVay chokehold on this division. So if it was a two year mission accomplished, so what I would say from the offseason all the way through kickoff and then definitely from kickoff to this point, he won both. I think a lot of the choices he's made on defense to have just paid off. You talked about the players drafted. It's undeniable to me that he has a hand in Eamon Worry, who is like the perfect Mike McDonald player, right? He's literally built in a lab to play for him. The trade for Ernest Jones, recognizing that he could fix a lot of the issues that they had at the linebacker position. And then some of the free agents, they've been brave, like bold about like who's become starters. Like there are later round guys, undrafted guys who got the opportunity to start. And so, yeah, his vision for the defense is, is born out. So I don't know. Well, I, I, I, I, I, I truly don't know who's going to win this one, JB. I have literally no idea, but I just think he's got a rock solid case. I do want to propose a new NFL honor. I'm going to call it the Kyle Shanahan hazard pay award. It's an automatic million dollar bonus at the end of the year to the coach who lost the most life expectancy over the course of the regular season, but still managed to win a road wildcard game Every time I see Kyle Shanahan I just look he just looks like he 20 years older This poor man Yeah he did a hell of a job this year Okay assistant coach of the year So I had some different ones for the finalists. I have one that I don't know if it's like people are going to roast me for it. The actual finalists were Fangio, Flores, Vance Joseph, Josh McDaniels, and Clint Kubiak. so i had three of those but i also had matt burke which i just the texans defense and then but that one i can understand people opposing because the talent but also just talking to people there and learning a little bit more about the talent and what he did with them i just thought he deserved credit i think they have a defensive head coach which probably also you know i mean And then I actually voted for Chris Shula for this. And I know right now we're at a moment coming up, you know, not a great stretch for the Rams defense, but part of the reason I voted for him, JB, was I was like, who's doing the most with the biggest deficiencies, very cheap defense, a lot of young players. And I thought the fact that for most of the season they held up and were extremely good statistically reflected well on him, which is why he got head coaching interviews. He was my final pick, but I'll defend it. And Clint Kluviak, by the way, that's one where people are looking at it and saying, well, wow, we're just coming off of this awesome performance. Again, I'm going to remind you, the Seahawks offense was not good for much of the season, but nobody remembers that. He's great overall, obviously. He was amazing in the postseason. Well, and with the Rams, you have to freeze the tape at the end of the regular season, right? And if you look at, say, defensive DVOA over resources spent, I think that's a pretty good ratio for Chris. And I also think that if you look at the performance with Quentin Lake on and off the field, like that is their Jenga piece. That's their Nick Emanwari. And for a defense that didn't have a ton of depth, especially in that secondary, what he achieved with his defensive captain and without is probably worth considering. And maybe you'll get roasted for it, but that's never stopped you before. And that's why I love this show. Well, so let me ask you this before I reveal my pick. do any of those names or even one that hasn't been mentioned but i suspect you're probably in alignment with some of the ones we've thrown out jump out to you as one you feel is deserving so uh one question and then one uh nominee how do you or how did you differentiate between the household name dcs like i mean the brian flores the vic fangio the vance joseph like the really good defense is led by veteran coordinators working for offensive minds so you know it's their operation when they all achieved at a very high but similar level. I ended up picking Brian Flores of those three because I thought he did the most with the least. And it was this. So this is the Vikings defense. It really is a shame that the offense was what it was this year, because this was a defense that finished third in DVOA above the Rams, above the Broncos, who you just mentioned above the Eagles. despite the fact that the secondary really had some talent issues that would show up at times. Good pass rush, but Nick Bonito, Will Anderson Jr., Jalen Carter are walking through that door. So I just thought, who am I giving the most credit to to the coach of all these teams? For me, for him to finish third in DVOA with that offense, I thought was just an unbelievable coaching job. That offense is a great qualifier because I was not trying to set a trap. Believe me, I was just going to say, based on what you said, what I really thought I was going to come on this show and do and try and convince you of is why not Jaguars defensive coordinator, Anthony Campanelli? So he was just outside for me. Okay. Because my case was going to build, like I want it for my friends, James Gladstone and Jake Temme and your argument about who did the most with the least in the shortest amount of time. I think he's... What a turnaround. Maybe your guy. Do you know that they had one individual honor this season? Roster wide, their long snapper. That's it. That's crazy. So he's a first year NFL coordinator. He had only been a co-DC previously for one season at the college level and dies right in and turns it around. And they catapulted from 31st to 6th, I believe it was. Yes. Yes. No, I, and talent wise. I mean, I, you know, I obviously like Josh Heinz Allen, but like, and they've got solid players, but he also got some of the best careers out of players who are already on the roster. You think about Devin Lloyd, but some of the young DBs as well, even a guy like Jordan Lewis coming over when they made a signing, I was like, really, that's your signing. And he was awesome before he got hurt. So I think if I had to do it again, that might be a name that I vault into the top five. Mina, he got 162 defensive snaps out of Travis Hunter. 15% of the defensive snaps from their top pick. By the way, you see that he's probably going to play mostly corner next year. I hope so. That's my vote. And Anthony's back. That was probably a big condition for Anthony. Yes. No, and what a coup for Jacksonville to bring him back and have that continuity. No, it's a great point. And honestly, I might put him in. I don't know why I didn't. When I was thinking about it, I just... But yeah, he was excellent this year. And the turnaround... That wasn't my final answer, by the way. Oh, okay. Well, who's your final answer? No, you can go first. It's your show. Well, Flores is who I ultimately picked. Flores is. Okay, so not just among that... I went Flores and then Fangio was my number two. I have to admit, I can't unsee Clint Kubiak's two playoff game plans. I know. And I did not have to write my ballot down before that. I know. Yeah. But even if I were to just try and limit it to the 17 games, single season franchise record points scored, top 10 DVOA, fifth and passing DVOA, overcoming an NFL high 20 turnovers by the quarterback, Sam Darnold. And he too did it in a variety of ways. Like early on, it was bombs away. It was all gas, no breaks. But later on, it was like, hey, let's dial it down a bit. Let's get Sam back on track. Let's tuck him in behind our running game. Let's bring that running game to life in December and January. Make sure we don't squander this chance to be the one seed. And I go back to the way that his coach empowered him too. Yeah. No, no, it's a great point about the quarterback. Because again, people last remember Sam Barna lighting it up. But for the second half of the season, they really had to protect him. And you saw that in the game plans. You saw that in his average death of target coming on. They figured out how to run the football better. did some cool stuff with their fullback and the multiple tight ends. He was great this year. I just thought it was like such a year of defense for me to like, I just think like when I think back to the season, so many of the great performances I thought were defensive coaching performances over offensive ones, which is why. Well, no one got more overshadowed by their defense than he and the Seahawks. Right? Yeah. Yeah. True. And then the offense ended up winning it. Okay. Offensive player, of the rookie of the year and defense of the rookie of the year are final categories. I'm not doing comeback player of the year by the way. Which is speaking of words that nobody can agree what it means. It's like did they come back from being bad or like a debilitating injury. Let's do offensive rookie of the year first because I genuinely I legit don't know I don't know how either of these are going to shake out actually which is great. Really? I was going to ask you if you thought offensive might be unanimous. I think it should be. Okay. I don't know if it will be though. I don't think it will be. Uh, the finalists were two quarterbacks, Dart and Chuck. Emeka Ibuka. Is it Emeka or Emeka? I always get it wrong. You're good at pronouncing it. Emeka Ibuka. Emeka Ibuka. Tett McMillan, who doesn't like to be called Tett. Sorry, Tettaroa McMillan. T-Mac. And then for some reason, Travion Henderson. Okay. Which, uh. The actual finalists, not your finalists. No, not my finalists. I had both Tyler Warren and Harold Vanna Jr. in my finalists. I just thought they were both awesome. They're not my picks, but I thought they were both awesome this year. Over Loveland. Loveland's late push didn't. Yeah. What a year for rookie tight ends. What a year for the rookie class in general. If we were to go back to the last weekend of April, do you think anyone was touting this draft class in a way that would have given us this many options on both sides of the ball? No, not at all. It was like, ah, there aren't good receivers. People thought the tight end class would be good, But I think one of the big changes in football over the last five years is these rookie tight ends. Because you remember tight end used to be a position where guys would come in and not do anything. And they're awesome right away, right? Okay, so my pick was Tedderall McMillan. That's why I thought it'd be unanimous. You get a thousand yards in this offense and play a full season. I think it's going to take a quarterback campaign to unseat you. And the quarterback didn't play enough games. uh tedrow mcmillan led all rookies in receiving yards but was 11th league wide led all rookies in touchdowns um a couple things that caught my eye on third and fourth down he was massive for carolina second and target share league wide behind amin ross st brown uh and he was six and first downs led all rookies he was exactly who carolina needed him to be when they drafted him um I just don't think trying to do like statistical case for any of the skill players none of them Ibuka obviously had the hot start but then things faded as the season went on the tight ends were both great but nobody came close to McMillan in terms of impact on the team to me I've been covering him since his freshman year in Tucson and I remember one year along the way when he was left off the preseason Bolitnikov award watch list which like everyone who starts at that position is included in. That's how kind of underappreciated he's been throughout his career. And then I also popped to that preseason draft video where he was caught saying something like, I don't watch football or don't watch film. And now I think I know who leaked that. And it was probably the Carolina Panthers. The whole draft process made me feel crazy because I saw a lot of not just of that video, but like just generally, oh, is he really trying? And I was like, I'm sorry, do we not like guys who are six foot four and catch everything and smooth? Like, you know, like turn on the tape. His body control was unbelievable, contested catchability. And he's not a burner, but at his size, he moves plenty fast. There was no doubt in my mind that he should be the first receiver taken. And it was a home run pick for Carolina. I'm curious to see where it goes from here because no one saw better football from Bryce Young than I feel like the Rams did. Right. We saw two great games from him. You're his Seahawks. Yeah. I think, I think the number was he had three games of at least 210 yards passing, like 210 or more, only three games. And that's the offense that produced this offensive rookie of the year. That's a great point. Okay. Defensive rookie of the year. uh i think actually i think i had the same final five i'm not 100 sure not to go full polly in but i don't have my ballot in front of me uh the final five were abdul carter nikki manwari carson schwestinger the ram the browns linebacker and then two falcons james pierce jr who led all rookies in sacks and xavier watts who was their excellent safety uh you saw both of those players obviously the falcons i don't want to see watts again anytime soon he was first amongst all rookies in interceptions in hawk rate second in passes defense he was excellent this year pierce jr had the nine sacks and then 41 pressures carter i know people will say it's a disappointing season but he actually the advanced stats really liked him this year which suggests he'll be good going forward he actually finished six and pass rush win um and he led all rookies in edges that said all of that said to me it's down to Eman Worry and Schwestinger agree or disagree. And I think just to underscore that it's who had the most impressive season, probably Carson who had the most consequential one. I think it's Eman Worry. That's a perfect way to lay it out. So just put out some, some numbers here. Schwestinger had three sacks and 18 pressures of his own, which was something I liked about his game in college too. And you know, Of course, we hear you follow that, uh, the PAC 12 RIP. Um, I always liked him as a blitzer a lot. And he, he, you can see that in the NFL. He's just really good at, um, finding his way to the quarterback, but he also had 129 tackles, which was fourth amongst online all linebackers. He played a ton of snaps for an excellent Browns defense and was impactful immediately at a position of great need with J okay. Um, not being available to them. So like, like you said, he was very he was an immediate impact starter. Eamon Worry actually led rookies at his position in tackles. He was first amongst rookies in passes defensed. He had 18 pressures of his own first amongst all defensive backs. He was used a lot as a blitzer. So I went Eamon Worry here and I did accuses me of being a homer it was aligned in some ways with my mcdonald pick for sure because when i think about the this season and i think about the seahawks having the best defense in the nfl i genuinely don't know if that happens without nikki minwari because as you know like and we've talked about this a lot of this show he his versatility and the ability of the seahawks to put him on the field and play nickel or big nickel or dime is what made this defense go right like they are the uniqueness of the 2025 seattle seahawks defense is that they could stop the run without putting big bodies in the field and even worry was not only a big part of that he was shockingly good in coverage this season so i just for me jb it came down to like such a young player being so impactful on this defense and so representative of what what they did and why they were able to do it that I was like I just feel like I'm gonna I know people will roast me for it because the Seahawks but I just feel like how many times did you watch him you're like I cannot believe that's a rookie out there making those plays I think a lot of Cleveland fans would say the same thing in fact I asked our good buddy Andrew Siciliano anticipating the direction you might go. I said, what will your level of outrage be if Nicky Manwari wins Defensive Rookie of the Year over Carson? He said off the charts. That's silly, Andrew. Can't be off the charts. A green dot, inside linebacker, day one, year one, on a top defense. I get it. I think he was one of the most impactful players at his position regardless of tenure, regardless of years on the job. And he played teams as well. but look I'm inclined to agree with you in the sense that Eman War is a force multiplier he was the necessary year two piece that brought the Seahawks defensive vision to life and if you want to argue that a historically fantastic defense that claimed the best division in football and the one seed and may very well win a Super Bowl because of a rookie chess piece like him I wouldn't hate it this this would be one of those where i would i would love to just see a co i'm not a big co-award guy but this is a unique case where i think it's warranted on a defense full of monsters he's already like the face of it to a lot of people i i i think maybe maybe maybe a little too much so because i think like there's other players in the seahawks defense who are probably deserve a bit more shine but um it for me it was just kind of like for him to come in and be that dude and be asked to do so much on this defense was just remarkable but Schwestinger has a really good case too and I this one I don't know how it's gonna shake out I think maybe Schwestinger will win because of the counting stats but it's one of those years where like you don't want the Seahawks to sweep everything, but if they did, could you really find fault? They might not win any of these. If Puka wins Offensive Player of the Year, I could see Vrabel winning Coach of the Year. I really could. It's going to be a great NFL honors because outside of the honorary Miles Garrett Award, I don't like any of these. Right? I think McMillan, to your point, should win, but I'm not 100% sure because so people don't even watch the Panthers. So, but other than that, man, I don't know. I have no idea who's going to win assistant. I think MVP is going to be Stafford, but it's going to be out of the wire. So yeah, it's going to be close. It's going to be a lot of fun. This is so fun. Ah, excited. JB, where can folks, now that when are you transitioning, your NFL season is done. What are you up to? Basketball, a lot of hoops. a lot of hoops on TNT sports. We should bring Mike Golic into that fray as well. It'd be super interesting. But in the meantime, I will echo the sentiments of my nine-year-old walking to school the other day, the morning after the loss of the Seahawks, he said, dad, I forgot how long it is from the last game of one season to the first of next. And I said, I'm right there with you, pal. And I hope that, I hope that you will be too. I love kicking off this season with you. and Stetson Bennett at SoFi Stadium. There was some Rams preseason player who was on another team who I was like, whenever that happens, I'm like the Leo meme where when you see a random Ram from the past, I can't remember who it is now, so it's a terrible story. But I do love seeing those guys have success in other places. It's fun. The one co-voice of the Los Angeles Rams on this show who will be rooting for the Seahawks next Sunday. Ah, you're the best. Well, I'm sure, folks, you made a great case for Mike McDonald, and you're very thoughtful about these things. So I'm sure people will understand how valuable your perspective is. And I loved our discussion about Matthew and Drake. And I'm sure everybody's going to be equally respectful and kind in the mentions. But in the meantime, I will be back next week for one show to preview the actual Super Bowl, which is insane. So I'll see you guys then. And oh, for those who watch Traders and Fallout, recap of that show, David Dennis Jr. comes out on Friday morning. We'll be doing the latest Traders. If you missed our interview with the great Rod Funches, that is also at youtube.com slash at media times. Thank you, as always, to our friends at Omaha Productions, Kirsten Sveiki, Owen Saylor, Jack Foster, Tucker Toschin. you