164: Oak Cliff Swipers

Man, I got a story for you. Where did this one he would come from? Oh yeah, it was Twitter. I got a Twitter DM and this guy's like, hi, I'm Nathan. I'm like, okay. And he was like, yeah, I've done some stuff and you might want to interview me. I should note right here that this episode has a lot of swear words and I would say is for mature audiences. So if you have some sense of ears around you, I recommend listening to this one with headphones or whatever you need to do. That's your warning, that's your graphic warning for this one. So typically when someone DMs me and says, hey, you know, you should interview me for your show. My first response without even knowing anything about them is can I see your police reports? Because a lot of people who message me, they like want to be on the show for hacking something, but maybe they've never been caught. And so I hate to glorify their actions, right? But even more so, it's probably true that their story isn't over yet. And it's just the beginning. And I should probably check in with them like in a few years to see how things are going. But I also have CEOs message me and say, hey, I'd like to come on the show and tell you about my product and how great everything is and how great we can defend things and stuff. And so when I just immediately start by asking for police report, that cuts right through a lot of the small talk and gets right to the heart of what I'm looking for. I want to know about the worst day of your life, the thing that happened that was just catastrophic to you. And you probably don't even want to talk about that. But with this guy Nathan, I ask him for a police report, he's just started sending me link after link. News reports and files and videos and photos and yeah, in Dite mains and affidavits and all that stuff. And it was piling up. This story just kept growing. I couldn't even keep up. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, that's definitely talk. Whatever this one is, it looks like it goes deep. So I'm like, hey, we should probably switch to signal, which is a more private messaging app. And he gives me his signal number and I message him there and we start talking. But then I find out I'm actually talking to his brother a different guy. I'm like, what the fuck? Hey, man, I thought I thought I was talking to you on signal but it ended up being your brother. And he's like, yeah, I gave you both me and my brother, my brother's signals, you could talk to both of us. And I'm like, okay, which one is yours? So he tells me which one is his and I'm like, okay, let's do a call and he's like, great, give me a date and time and I'll be there. And I'm like, all right, well, how about this weekend? He's like, hell yeah, Saturday, I'm free all day. I'm like, great, let's do it. Saturday comes, I wake up and I check the signal and I got a message from him and all caps and it's like, I have to work until midnight, but it's not that hard so I can multitask and I can talk to you at the same time. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't call me while you're at work. Finish your job and then we'll talk. How about tomorrow, Sunday, 10 a.m.? He's like, yeah, that sounds great. I got nothing going on all day Sunday. So in Sunday, 10 a.m. comes around. He messages me saying, man, my baby mama is tripping so I have to drive my daughter somewhere. I'm gonna be two hours late for the call. I'm like, okay, no problem, it's Sundays. See you in two hours. So two hours go by and I'm like, all right, you ready? And he's like, my phone is about to die and I'm not near a computer. So let me charge it on a power bank for 30 minutes. Like, okay, fine. And I think at this time he went to his mom's house or something and she's like 70 years old and I think he was gonna take her to the store or something but then he texted me a photo of her. She's all dressed up ready to go out, jewelry on, personhand, but she's passed out on a couch and he tells me she drank too much and passed out. Then he even tells me like, it's not even her house. Someone's asking me to take my mom somewhere else. So now I've got to drive my passed out mom somewhere. And then he starts feeling my text with wild chats. He's like, I don't even know some of the shit he was saying to me on signal. It's like he was gonna show me a video of him cussing out some cops and then he told me his brother is on the run due to some impending felonies. And I'm like, is that the same brother I talk to? He's like, yeah, man. And he tells me his uncle killed himself and how he chose his kids instead of his uncle's life. And I can't even follow what he's saying. But then he goes swimming and he sends me a photo of him swimming in a pool with his daughter. And, needless to say, we did not get a chance to do a call that weekend, even though I was sitting on the line for like six hours waiting for him to show up. So we tried to reschedule, but man, we had a lot of conflicts. All I'm trying to say is that this guy, Nathan, is one wiggly guy and is hard to get on the phone. But eventually, we got on the phone together. You made it. Yeah. So what are you doing right now? I'm sitting right here with a bomb in front of me in front of the five computer screens. What is that? Why five? I mean, because my brain's going so fast. Oh yeah. You only have two eyes though. And then hope that they're going everywhere. What's it? What's it? You see them all at the same time, kind of. You know what I mean? Why, what's going on in your brain? Why is it going so fast? Explain to me your brain here. It's like fireworks constantly exploding in my brain. Yeah, so give me an example. You're like, oh, I got to check an email. I got to check Twitter. Like, what's going on? Yeah, like a thousand, a thousand. I'm not talking to you. No, babe, I'm not talking to you. My daughter. No, honey, no interview. She said, oh, OK, let's. Yeah. Yeah, so I prepare for the worst and then hope for the best. That makes sense. Yeah, well, you're in your grasp. Yeah, and you've gone through some pretty bad stuff. So, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got different levels of trauma. Right. There are levels to it, for sure. For sure. Yeah. Like, they need to scale for that. Maybe all this new AI and Super Computer shit. They'll come up with some good shit. Won't be cyborgs by like 23. We're going to be getting to your younger every year. Yeah. Yeah, I hope so. I don't want to get older. That won't live forever. You know what I mean? Yeah, I want that. I don't know if I want to live forever. All right. Let's start with what's your first name? Nathan. OK. I got in my notes that Nathan is the ringleader of this whole enterprise. Well, you know, I mean, if they were to really get the people that should have got or whoever, then it's probably my mother-in-law that would have been the ringleader. If she's, if it's worse already, we haven't even started it already. These are true stories from the dark side of the internet. I'm Jack Ricider. This is Dark Net Diaries. This episode is sponsored by DRAWDA. Let's face it, if you're leading GRC at your organization, chances are you're drowning in a sea of spreadsheets every day, balancing security, risk, and compliance in an ever-changing landscape of threats and regulatory frameworks can feel like running a never-ending marathon. Enter DRAWDA's agentic trust management platform designed for leaders like you. DRAWDA automates the tedious tasks, security questionnaires, responses, continuous evidence collection, and much more, saving you hundreds of hours each year. 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Read the full report and check your Darknet exposure for free at spycloud.com slash Dark Net Diaries. That's spycloud.com slash Darknet Diaries. Nathan grew up in Oak Cliff, an area near Dallas, Texas. They put mail Ridland when I was six years old, bro. Ridland, wow. First day at kindergarten. That first step in the kid at school. Because your head was fireworks. Wait, did you say you tried to stab a kid at school? Did you do that at kindergarten? Oh, man. You were that kind of kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. MHM are for real. Yeah. And then, of course, the drug didn't help. When you self-medicate and you think it's helping it, it didn't help. By the time he was 14, him and his brother were really into video games, Diablo 2, and World World Craft was his favorites. At the time, there was an underground market where you could buy and sell in-game items for real money. So, they'd play these games and try to sell things within the game. Well, I was like 14 and I was 70, I was about two items. I kept getting scammed on paper, I was charged back. So, I just joined that side because they seemed to be making more money because I was losing more. And there's his origin story. He got scammed. And the scammer didn't get in any trouble at all. He got away clean with Nathan's money. And he was like, all right, all right, I see how this world is. Either you're getting scammed or you're the scammer might as well be the scammer. Like I knew where I from wrong from when I was a kid. I chose this past. My parents didn't raise me like this. My parents raised me to do right. But when I got charged against scammed, I just chose the path to the dark side. But his origin story isn't as simple as that. If you know Oak Cliff, you may also know that that's a rough area of town to grow up in. So I was raised in a little class, but I lived in the hood. My parents made about $100,000 a year. You know, we had nicest house in the neighborhood and shit like that. But I was raised in the streets. So tell me what was shitty about your neighborhood. You know, please chase the people around the neighborhood, shoot up your butt three o'clock in the morning. You're looking at your window and there's three helicopters in the sky looking for somebody and spotlights sign on your house. Shit like that gunshots. You know, seeing people get shot. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I pick up all my bad habits at school. I mean, that's where everybody learns about bad shit, right? Is it school? Yeah. And then I start picking up all the bad shit. Once I started getting into wares and programming and AOL back in 1945, 1996, 1997, 1998. Well, I think there's some sort of reflection here of like, it's like, hey, look, if I'm going to be nice, people are still going to rob me and beat me up and all the sort of things. So I got to toughen up. I got to be a jerk to the world because the world is a jerk to me. And that's why I turned into a monster. I think like, you like, you like, I just did 13 years of prison and I didn't even know I could fight that good. I mean, I got into a lot of fights growing up where I grew up at, but I didn't know it was the least. People learn a lot about themselves in prison, don't they? Yeah, you do. I mean, I'm still learning things about. I just realized what a couple of triggers I had that just me off and how easy they were to change. So I didn't get mad anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Like self-discovery, like I'm just now getting self-discovery because I've been clouded by drugs my whole life. So who were you living with at 14? I was with my mom and dad, you know, Cliff Dallas. Your brother living together as well? Yes. Yeah, me and my little brother. All right. I just dropped out of school. I dropped out. Let me guess. Let me guess. You were, I want to say dirt bag, but you probably don't call yourself a dirt bag. I'm trying to guess what kind of person you are. But I imagine just you got into drugs and just screwed around and like forget this. I'm done with this and you didn't shower and you just played video games. I don't know what to do. I was out pivot hose. What? What's he? So when I said ping, I was like chasing pussy. Yeah. It was crazy. Like, like, so I dropped out and my mom bought me a computer from the I.C. got at work. It was a 46 pinium and I want to say it was a 14 four bod modem and I've been stuck on a computer ever since. In this whole time, Nathan and his little brother were watching how people were making money in their area and living in the hood, you can probably guess what kind of stuff that they were seeing. A lot of hustlers. And they were set on trying to find ways to make money themselves, but they were also super into computers. So that's where they focused on trying to make money. Okay. So like my whole life near my little brother, we always make money on the internet. They're like video games through selling currency and stuff like that for games and stuff and whatnot. How do you do that? We're like selling in game currencies for different video games. Like we used to have a couple of Diablo 2 dukes. We sold Diablo 2 items. Then we sold Wild Go. Then we had a virus, a root kid virus that stole all accounts for every gaming platform that they had. How are you selling? How are you getting the gold to sell? We buy it from them with stolen PayPal and shit. Ooh. So we got to step back a second. I got to hold the story. So you got to step back a second. It's just 94, you know. I was doing it back in the BBS days. Holy cow. So he'd buy access to someone else's PayPal account, buy some ingame gold with that, and then he'd have the gold in his video game account, and then he'd sell that gold to some other player for real cash, which he could put in his pocket. In this way, he was using World of Warcraft's gold as sort of a money laundering mechanism. Then this led him to chat rooms where people were selling or trading credit card dumps. This is where they get their hands on some full credit card details so that they could buy whatever they want with it. And they just weren't hit and bro, like, you know, it'd be like hit or miss, like, you know, because they have all the algorithms and shit running. So it would be hit or miss, and then, but then when you get a good one, it'd be a banger, you know. So now it's like, man, this is the only way we're sat down again, and we're like, well, there's got to be a better way because it's just ain't working. So you have got to hand it to these two boys. They were incredibly persistent and diligent and finding ways to make money. Sometimes it was legal. Sometimes it wasn't. They would study a lot, learn how to do stuff, try it, fail, and then pivot and try something new. They were young teenagers though. So a lot of the stuff they were doing was really dumb and not working, but they knew there was loads of money to be made online somewhere, scaring, stealing. It was just a matter of trying lots of stuff before finding where the good stuff was. One idea was the one that his mother-in-law came up with. He was married in, I don't know, 2008-ish, and his wife worked at Walmart, and his mother-in-law gave him an idea. When someone goes to use a credit card to buy stuff at Walmart, the cashier tries to scan the card and the little machine, and if it works, okay, great, the card is charged and the person goes on their way. But sometimes the magnetic strip gets screwed up. The card is broken or something like that, and it doesn't swipe right. If the cashier can't swipe the card, then they look at the numbers on the card and punch those numbers into the cash register manually and charge the card that way. His mother-in-law was like, what you guys should do, Nathan, you should bring a totally broken card when my daughter is on the register and put on the card a bunch of credit card numbers for her to try. She'll just keep punching in random credit card numbers until you guys find one that actually works. My sixth wife was a manager at Walmart, so when I tell them that my card, I do magnetize the strip on a card so they would say they got to punch it in. They can manually enter the number then if it doesn't swipe. When she come over there and put in her little manager key, and I give her a blank card, like a blank PVC card with just a max strip on the back of it, with a supposed note on the front of it, with like eight card numbers, eight season movies, and eight expiration dates. And we just sit there and run that bitch and get whatever we get off of them. And you guess what he was trying to buy with this? Stacks and stacks of gift cards. If a random card would work, then he'd buy as many gift cards as he could on that bogus made up stolen credit card number. I got $30,000 worth of gift cards on one day from her Walmart. You didn't actually spend any of the gift cards, right? I don't know, he's been all. Why? Where'd you spend $30,000 in gift cards on? Well, you know, it's half price when you sell it anyways. And when you're selling quantities like that, you got to go down about 40% anyways. So, okay, so you're reselling them and then other people are spending that. Yeah. Goddamn. But I had no one in my mom. So she could you do bill pay at Walmart? But I thought one in my mom. And then they jam my mom up too. My mom was tired and she got her job at Walmart which she retired. So what did your mom think of you giving her a stolen gift card? Like, I imagine you've been in trouble like a thousand times by this point. But I should have been asking this, like, what do your parents think of you? I do not want to. Which we've already talked with, daddy weapons. Yeah, kissing garden, you were a stab in someone and then aggravated assaults. I imagine it's not news for your mom to hear that you do and crazy shit. Right. Yeah. Okay. But yeah. Okay. So I don't even know what. If I were to throw fireworks. At some point the people at Walmart caught them and they put them in a room and interrogated them and told them, don't ever come back here again. But nothing ever came of that. Talk about it now because statue limitations ran out and except Monday. There are none except Monday. Okay. Yeah. Don't say anything that's going to get you in trouble here. Yeah, I make sure that your limitations are ran out. Yeah. And I should say that my journalistic ethics for policy here is that anything you tell me in the past, I'm not going to tell anyone except for whatever goes out publicly, right? But if you tell me that you might like harm someone in the future or commit some crime in the future, then that puts me in a moral pickle where I'm just like, man, I could have prevented like a more obligation to do it. Right. Yeah. I'm going to be involved in any of this. I'm going to go kill some pedals. You're not going to tell me. Don't tell me what you're going to do in the future. If I was going to, you know, we're better pals. You wouldn't tell them because it's not morally right to go tell up the way to go. It's a better file. Well, have you heard like if you tell someone your plan, their part of the conspiracy at that point, just because you tell them, you know the best give out one person conspiracies. What? I have a homegirl that was locked up in the fence. She was on a one person conspiracy. Oh my gosh, that's the phone conversations and shit. Man, fireworks is right. All right, let's get back on track. Okay, so that plan didn't work. It was time for them to try something new. We started OGH crew online, gangster hackers and shit we had. So we had like the original 419 cameras from Algeria and shit. We had some of them in our crew. It's crazy. Like the people that you meet online broke from all different regions of the world and just different cultures and it's amazing how, but you get on the internet and you know we're all alive. Everybody's everybody. You can be wherever you want to be on the internet. We fucking messaged this one time to do and they did that back then they did like fake iPhones and shit like that. And he had MSRs and skimmers and embossers and shippers and all that shit. This is equipment to steal credit cards and print credit cards. The MSR is a mag stripe reader writer. So if you get a blank credit card, you could program it with the MSR. They studied up on how all this works and they thought yeah, if we get a skimmer, we could collect our own credit cards. We don't need to buy dumps from others. So he was like, alright, let's buy a skimmer. But he had like a hell of a deal, bro. It was like, you got about 10 of them though and they were like $250, these back then. We saved up, got $2500 and ordered them. And we got to a couple MSRs but we got most of the skimmers of like I had gas pump ones and everything. Yeah. Okay. So did you try putting those skimmers on gas pumps and stuff? Oh yeah, we had them on gas pumps. Okay, okay. I've never talked with anybody who's ran that. So tell me this process. Was gas pumps your number one place you put them on or did you put them on other things? I mean, we had ones on ATM machines too back in the days too but the problem was with them is trying to get the pin recorded. Right? They didn't have the 3D printers now where you could print something that looks just like it that's paper thin that you could put right over the top of it. You know, they didn't have shit like that back then. So it cost $200 for one skimmer? And that was cheap. That was cheap. Okay. They're used like 600 back then. Wow. Okay. So yeah, tell me about putting your first skimmer. I think the order. That particular order was the ones that are about the size of the big lighter and they're wireless. Yeah. And they blew two on them. Okay. So tell me about putting your first skimmer on a machine. Well, the gas station right around the corner from my house that I've been going through my whole life. So I mean, I used to clean up the parking lot and shit when I was a kid at this gas station so it's like they wouldn't ever fuck with me about anything anyways. So I would just put it in there and let us see if we're about a week. Yeah. So you're not even nervous driving up to it. Like, okay, here we go. We're going to put this in. You're just like, dog water. You've got to pee. I already got the keys though for all the gas pumps. Like I live in the hood so it's like you can get whatever you want to get in anything. Okay. So he leaves this skimmer on the gas pump for a few days. And in case you don't know what a skimmer is, it fits right over the credit card reader on the gas pump. So when you go to swipe your card to buy some gas, his skimmer will also read your card and save the data from it. It's meant to look just like a regular scanner on the gas pump so that you don't notice it. And this is why every time I go to swipe my card anywhere, I first grab the reader and wiggle it hard to see if it comes off because then it would be a skimmer. After a few days, he comes back and pulls it off the pump and then he has to learn how to get the data off it. Okay. So you can either unplug it and hook it up to your computer USB and it just downloads and just opens it up and it's just like about, or you can blow to them. And the later ones have blue tooth. You just go blue tooth to it. Blue download. Okay. So when you grabbed it and you put connector to your computer, what you find? Track one and track two information. And I brought, I had the reason they caught me with all the victims and 6,500 victims from over a hundred different banks is because I was trying to crack the code. Crack the code. Yeah, the algorithm. I'm trying to generate notes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you just find that I got a beach one of them. I'd be able to figure out the sequence, you know what I mean? Yeah, because it's just a 16 digit number plus a CVV code. If you could, if you could figure out a way to find those, I mean, they already got you rated for numbers. So if you could just find how they get that, how they get the CVV code, you'd be good. Yeah. And that's what you were trying to do. If I were me, they, right now, they're they. So I actually tried that same thing when I was a teenager like, hey, this is just 16 digit code. Let me just type in gibberish into this form and see if I get a watershed. And of course, none of it worked. And I was like, okay, this is beyond me. Well, I just was doing it at random, trying to think like, how do they know with this is a real card? I'm just going to type in whatever. Yeah, at least somehow near. But I always just use mom and dad's great card to find out. And then I knew the cards work like that. And then it's all just starts to never raise enough. Yeah. Okay. So how many cards like that? How many cards did you get from that gas pump? Oh, probably like 83 or something. I don't know if I remember correctly. I was like, for three days, where is that? And what'd you do with those cards? I sat on. I didn't know that the moon. Why? I was scared. Yeah. They just weren't familiar enough with how all this worked. The cards, they were punching in at Walmart, which is random numbers that they were trying. And the dumps that they were buying, well, they knew that those were already stolen by someone else. But these cards, they were skimming themselves. They knew to them. They never stole credit cards before like this. So they just had to sit on them and let the heat cool down for a little while. And we're going to take a quick ad break here. But stay with us because wherever you think this story is going, I promise you, it gets way crazier than that. This episode is sponsored by Black Hills. Black Hills has earned the trust of the cybersecurity industry since John Strand founded it in 2008. You've got to already know that if you want to test your defenses or need around the clock monitoring, Black Hills is where you look. And I really hope you've already checked out their anti-siphon training programs too, where they teach you to think like an attacker. It's hands-on, practical training built for defenders who want to level up. But did you know about the webcasts, blog, zines, and comics all designed by hackers, four hackers? They even spun up a whole comic series called The Future Is from Recha Comics. It's like Black Mirror meets hackers filled with hands-on cybersecurity challenges. You can find it in over 700 comic shops worldwide, or from the comfort of your keyboard at their online store, the Spearfish General Store. And that place is a rabbit hole of its own. They've got the back doors and breaches card game, shirts, stickers, and the Recha hoodie, which is hackers spelled backwards. So when you look in the mirror, well, yeah, you get it. You see the hacker that you always knew you were. And because you're a Dark Knight Diaries listener, they've got a very special thing waiting for you at BlackHillsInfosec.com slash DarkNit. Okay, chicken express. That's what this chapter's called. Chicken Express. I've never been there, but I'm looking at it on Google Maps. And there's actually a bunch of them in Texas. It's a drive-through, fast food, chicken joints, and during busy times they have two lanes for cars to line up in. But in order to take the order from that second lane, a cashier needs to walk out to the car and take the order and then also take their money so that they can go into the building and charge the credit card or get changed for them. Nathan's brother's girlfriend, Elizabeth, got a job at chicken express, taking orders. And what he would do is he had this little girlfriend and like, you know, manipulation, all that bullshit. So you know how he goes. Yeah. They do whatever you want. They're just like they can convince their man to do what they want him to do. So she was working at chicken express and we were like, okay. They had the skimmers from before and they were like, you've got this great big apron on. Put the skimmer in your front apron pocket and then when you take the person's credit card into the building to swipe it, also swipe it in the skimmer and your apron. The machine to charge the car was inside the restaurant so that she would take the card leave and come back, which would give her ample opportunity to stick it in that pocket as swipe it through that skimmer. Because you don't matter which way you go on the skimmer or anything, it's going to record it. All right, I get it. They basically were just grabbing a copy of everyone's credit card that came through that chicken express lane. Her first day doing it, she got eight cards. Not bad. But again, they're too scared to use them. They've just stolen eight cards. Take it easy. Don't do anything with it. His brother was the one who was grabbing the cards off of Elizabeth Skimmer and keeping it on his computer. He didn't want to share them with Nathan. Right. Well, we were just going to save him up for a while and what we really were playing was just our selling dumps. But I had other ideas to my head. My little brother had his ideas. I had mine. Yeah, what was your brother's ideas? Well, he didn't want to use them. I wanted to use them. Okay, this is what I don't understand. Both of you have now spent $2,500 to buy skimmers. You've both gotten dozens of cards from it and that you're like, let's not use this for anything. Because we didn't know nothing about that side of it. You know what I mean? Like the dumps out of it. We know what track one track do was. We knew we had put them on cards and we knew all that stuff. But we didn't know none of the, I guess we were trying to upset on it. You know what I'm saying? I got figured out. Yeah. Okay, okay. So you just being hesitant. If we were to use these, we were hacking it. Hacking it. Trying to figure out how their system worked. We know who use one of these. They're going to come right bust. Now I know right there. Not. We know. That's right. So we're more cautious about it. Okay, fair enough. But she keeps skimming them. Yeah, she keeps skimming them for months. So they just sat on them. Not sure what to do. Just play it cool. Until one day, Nathan decided to use one. One day, he's like two or three of like, we were stuck somewhere or something to handle gas or something. And because we had a laver set up inside of the vehicle where we could make cards on our goat. We'll get to that sooner or later. Okay. But we had no dumps. So we couldn't get none. We couldn't get no big backdamps. Let me reserve. We had no limited reserve divining our web money. So we decided to use a couple of them. And they were bangers. Until our bangers bangers bangers. He was storing these cards in a Google Doc. And he took a few and got some blank credit cards. And he used his MSR advice to write the credit card details to the card. At first, he just tried to use it on a gas pump. And it worked. He got gas with this card. And then he went into a store and tried buying stuff. And he says with just a few cards, he was able to buy $3,000 worth of stuff. Like, everyone in here, well, everyone in here. Of course they hit because their cards used to all their fresh. Right. Because the ones who were buying, the ones who were buying online, were sold to four other people before they were booked. We didn't know that, right? I know you didn't know that. But that's why they weren't working. Yours. We're fresh. We probably got scammed. Eight times before we were got one that worked. That's right. You know. But yeah, so we didn't know that they worked like that. So once we used them fresh ones in my road, they wouldn't use no more. And I'm like, fuck him. I got to, I'm going, my wheels are spinning in my head. And once I see the taste of money, it's like, I'm not worried about pussy. I'm not worried about drugs. You're been addicted to making money. You're talking about being addicted to making money. Because this is an addiction. He had some of these cards from the skimmers that he was putting around town. But it was his brother who had the most amount of cards. From all the cards, his girlfriend and Elizabeth was skimming at chicken express. But his brother wasn't sharing those cards with Nathan. And his mind was racing with how to get those from his brother. I don't know if you, how much of the better work you write or if you look at anything up. But there was like 58 people that weren't in light. 58. And then I got three. I was, well, at four I was, but only three I was. Well, you have to tell me when there's other 55 come in to play. Because we've only listed three so far. They've already been involved with all that. We're already making cards. Well, that's how we're already making cards. We're already deep in the game by them. This is when we get the fresh dumps. And we're using them fresh dumps that were skimmed. That's what our friend K. started because of. Okay. So the other 50 people were involved before this. Not missing all 50 of them. My brother and his people and I have my people. My brother had like four or five people and I had like very people. Okay. And these other people were where their roles. Shoppers. See, Nathan had a Fargo printer, which is a classic printer used to make IDs. Think membership cards or student IDs, employee badges. But he was using it to make credit cards. And he was making them look really good. I print the cards and then program them extra. And that with my model, the key trick was so they don't have to ask you for ID. Just put your fucking picture in the corner of the fucking card. So you had a guy that would that you took a picture of him and you would print it on the card to make it look like a legitimate card. It wasn't just a blank card. So I was printing on the card to make it look as good as possible. Yeah. And then he was taking it in the store and like, look, my picture's on the card. How can you say that's not me? Exactly. Wow. That's, that's going to the, the length there. Like this is like in 2008. So I was seven and eight. So like nobody was doing that like that back then. So he would go around his neighborhood and hit up people. He thought might want the extra cash and have them come over. And then he'd make a bunch of credit cards with their photo on it and have them go out and shop. With stolen credit cards and then bring back any of the stuff you buy with it. Well, what I'm using is I'm providing the cards. I figured the cards were if they're rounded down and they're making the card. So I charge a hundred dollars for a card basically, right? Okay. It's what, it's so say they're going to be back $3,000 worth of merchandise. I can only sell it for half price. So it's $1,500 out of the gate. I'm taking a hundred off reach card. And I'm paying you cash the risk. Hot damn. So people. Yeah. Okay. That's pretty good incentive for I could see why a bunch of people would want to get in on this in Texas. Well, and in plus, you know, like I was in the hood. So everybody's broke. Nobody has nice jobs and shit like that. All the parents are crackheads or hoars or prostitutes or camps or the pushers, the pants or the pushers. Okay. So all that was going around for a while with crappy stolen credit cards. A lot of that didn't work. But now Nathan is like, man, I'm sitting on a bunch of banger cards. It's time to start making some real money with these. But his brother was the one who had the bulk of them and he wasn't sharing. So my brother didn't want to use them. And so I had my brother. Well, I mean, I hacked him and started using them. Wait, you hacked your brother? Yeah. You want to? What? You got something I want, I can't. How did you do that? I mean, I just got on his computer and fucking and stole his file. I knew, you know, with that, it's my little brother, you know, so obviously he's learned from me. So he's going to think kind of like I think. So it wasn't that hard to find the text document and where it was. And I've seen him, you know, because it's his girlfriend that's doing it. Right? Yeah. So. And then, uh, yeah, I didn't go to prison the first time. I was 30. So I made it pretty good while I got in trouble. I think you did for myself. What, what age do you think your daughter is going to be before she goes to prison for the first time? They're not going to prison. Okay. What I'm graduated college, the other one's in college. My 16 year old student graduate at high school with her nursing shit done this year. Do you have a better neighborhood that they're living in compared to where you grew up? Uh, yeah. I mean, this, I mean, it's Dallas, bro. You know, it's a city. So I mean, it's like, back to the heavens everywhere. You put it as like a badge of honor like, man, I didn't go to prison until I was over 30. So it did pretty good. Most people either dead or or imprisoned by the time I started living in my neighborhood. I grew up in Oakland, though. See, my kids live in Dallas with their mother. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a little better. I mean, but it's still the city, you know, fast life. What did, what did your dad do? Like, was he a carpenter or a musician or what did, a lot of fire systems and restaurants and, uh, paint booths? Did he ever break the law? Did he, what was his, what, what age did he go to prison? He went to, he went to jail, uh, when he was a kid, one time for running from the police, because he had a race car. He had a Dodge Challenger. Yeah. I mean, when you say it, the fast life, it really does resonate with me because there is, everything's just moving and changing and things are happening and it feels uncomfortable because it's like, I'm not ready for this, but man, everyone else is doing it. So I better get ready for this because I got no choice. I'm like, it's like you're in a shit, a tank full of sharks. So you become a shark or you get eaten. Okay. We need to get back on track. Um, all right. With, with the stolen file that he got from his brother, he had a whole new chest of cards to start cracking into. And when I think about the supply chain here, it's pretty wild. Elizabeth stole these cards from people at chicken express and then she gave them to her boyfriend. Actually, I think, uh, they got married sometime in there as well. So she gave them her husband, then Nathan steals the cards from him, and then he prints them onto cards and gives them to shoppers and swipers. And then they go out and they buy things from the stores with them. And then they sell those things back to Nathan for 30% of its value. And then Nathan tries to sell it for 50% of its value on the streets. So Nathan was a lot of people's hookups for just half price stuff. But despite being complex and long, the system was working with Nathan working with dozens of shoppers that were just going around buying stuff all the time. It was endless work for him. He was making cards all day and reselling things and buying stuff. But he was making good money doing it all. At this point, his brother realized that Nathan stole the cards and was unhappy about it. But was joining him on some of this anyway. I mean, he had always joined. He said I was doing too much because I was doing too much. Anyway, he didn't want to miss out on all the money that he could get from his cards. That his wife stole. In order to be a good swiper, you got to believe in your heart and your mind and your body. That this is your credit card. This is your money. If you don't, you won't do good. You'll be one of the people that pays for the shit, and then they ask you for ID and you burn off. And you just burn yourself. It's all about how you talk to people. It's all about you from this game, really. Yeah. And who you picked to check you out. Did you teach people how to do that game? Yeah. You got to. Well, okay, teach me. I want to be a good swiper. Okay. So long teaching me a bit, wiper. We'll give you a couple of five, like two or three cards. Right? Yeah. I'm going to tell you what, what to go in there and get. Like, I've been playing people's routes out, forming everything. Like, the back of the map quest, right? I've been playing their whole route out, forming, telling what stores go to and everything. Right? I have it all. Won't down on everything. So we go to the store and you would come with me first and I'd show you how to do it. I never, never look up at a camera. Never, never. I was where I had. So, and I'm always looking down at my phone. Always look, so always be on your phone. Yeah. That was the role one one. Always be on your phone. Because you're looking down at your phone. You're always going to look down, right? Yeah. So you're not going to be looking up to where a camera, she can get a clear picture of your face. That's why I get my federal document. Documents, it says 200 file whitemail, 200 file whitemail. There's always me and my brother. Yep. But it was on 200 file whitemail. That's all it was. I always cover up all your tattoos. We're glad where I had. You know, things that are going to make it not so obvious to who you are. But without not making it so obvious that you're hiding your identity. Right? Yep. I liked when I go get gift cards, I'd like putting on some coveralls and getting them all dirty and shit. It looked like I've been working on the whole day and I'm coming here to get $2500 gift cards for my workers. Because they pass a safe test. Yeah. So then does it look obvious? Then my brother's got coveralls with me. He's with me. My card don't work. Right? Yeah. Bro, you're going to get on your card yet? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to get on my card. Pay for my shit, bro. And as soon as my shit gets on there, I'll pay back. So he's at one register and I'm at the next register. We're working together at the same time still too. Yeah. So we're banging them double and everybody like we, like when I was doing that, I went to, I went to all the way to Missouri back down and got like $30,000 for the gift cards. I do seldom, never like there for eBay and PayPal. And he had a bonnet that with him up eBay. So over time, the shoppers and swipers and his network would be bringing him tons of stuff. A lot was gift cards, but sometimes it was TVs and laptops and video game consoles. Anything that would have a high resale value. What I do is I'd have a storage and I'd fill it up. And there's pictures of it and I'd just go back it. And I'd fill it up and then I had a couple of Mexicans that are cartel. They take all this shit back to Mexico, bro. They'll buy this shit for cash. It's easier to transport this shit across the board than in his cash. I'm going to lose it getting across the board. I'll be able to drive it right across. It's crazy how much logistics went into his operation. But the more cards you would get from skimming, the more cards you could just print and the gift to shoppers and they would be constantly bringing him stuff. He had it all dialed in. Bro, I didn't know that but I was making like $5,000 cash a day profit. But of course, in the wake of all his activity, it would mean that tons of cards were reported stolen and purchases were traced to certain locations and authorities started putting pieces together. Apple text is basically half the United States. This article says this case is being investigated by the Tyler Police Department, US Secret Service, the Smith County Sheriff's Office, the Henderson County Sheriff's Office, the Athens Police Department, the Caini City Police Department, the Longview Police Department, the Mesquite Police Department, the Teral Police Department, the Waco Police Department, the Corsican Police Department, the Laxichachi Police Department, the Van Zanz County precinct for a constable, Walmart stores, associate asset protection and Southside Bank. Yeah, it's crazy, right? It wasn't too hard for them to all look at the cards for a common purchase point, which would indicate where they were likely stolen, and the cops saw that chicken express and gas pumps were where these cards were getting stolen from. Eventually, this meant the cops had an arrest warrant for Nathan. And it didn't seem like they knew exactly what he was up to, but they had a strong suspicion that he was doing something wrong. And for some reason, right around this time, Nathan broke up with his wife. They got a divorce. And she was the mother of his kids. She wasn't clean from crime herself, though. She got caught punching in those credit cards of Walmart. Remember? And the police gave her a stern talking to you for that one. But for whatever reason, the two of them broke up, and were done with that relationship. I admit that it's bad bitch, bro. So I had a bitch living in the town for me. And I meant this bad bitch, bro. So I brought a bad bitch home with me and kicked my other bitch out the night before, bro, that I got rated. So I mean, I mean, they're making some cards this morning. It's like six o'clock in the morning, bro. And the dude comes over from across the street to get some cards, make some cards. Five minutes later, bro. I hear his bang on the door and they kicking the door. I fucking throw the laptop on the floor and I jump up. He's in there. And I come in the living room, they fucking got a gun. I'm a goddamn daughter's head, bro. She's like five years old, bro. And they're telling me to get down on the ground, but I said, get that fucking gun out my daughter's face. You fucking bitch. I'm like, I'm already, bro. Like I'm already freaking the fuck out. This girlfriend and dad come home and they see Nathan in handcuffs in the front yard. In the secret service, they started asking me questions, I ain't got nothing to say. They don't like, well, they found stolen motorcycles, here drugs. Uh, everything. Blaine and Greta Cards. They rated the neighbors house across the street to get some of them. They found a fucking baby white container with like a thousand cards in it. Uh, they put them all in the news, they have pictures of them. All, all out on the table, I think fucking, you know how they do that parade this shit around. I think this is some good. Yeah. I was just a modern day Robin Hood, bro. I thought. I was gonna reach the beautiful. No, you were not the Robin Hood. You weren't giving anything to the poor. You were the one making all the money. You were like, I want more money. I want more money. It looks like I made all the money because I had so many people working for me. But everybody else made just as much money as I did. So the cops continued to question him. But he just kept quiet the whole time. They told him, look, if you tell us the names of everyone involved, then we'll let you go. But he didn't say anything. He didn't give up anyone's names. And I'm not sure if they even knew he was the ringleader of all this or not. They were like, well, you don't have anything in charge with today. I was a search warrant. You'll be receiving a nightmare later date and a left. And they didn't take you. They just left you. Nobody did. They tried to take my escalate, but they couldn't take my escalate because it wasn't in my name. They're putting up. Thank God. So you're okay. So what kind of cars did you have at the time? At Jaguar, Alexis and I got a guy's leg. Yeah. And they didn't. You think they couldn't take any of the cars? No. My Lexus is in my best friend's name. Desk Lake was in the coffin. My bottom from Jaguar is in my homeboys name. So you were buying cars with this? What else were you doing with the money? I went by electronics. I had lots of jewelry and lots of guns. Drugs? Oh, yeah. Lots of drugs. Yeah. I always had drugs. What? Of course. Sorry to ask. When they took me out for riddling, what else did I have to do besides self-medicating? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. just too much and was gonna move out. And his brother was still mad that he stole the file off his computer. He's mad, so what? Even though his brother did some of this activity himself too, there was just too much going on for him. It was getting too hot and his little brother moved out just before the cops raided the place. He wasn't here, bro. He already broke off because he said I was doing too much. I mean, ultimately we were the guy caught anyways. I just kind of put this in the HLB line and got us there quicker. Yeah, but they're past of punching in credit cards and stores buying dumps online and getting dozens of people to help be shoppers. They were doomed from that alone. The chicken expressed cards that they were using like this. It just sped up the process of them getting caught. So after they raided this, I had $20,000 stats that they didn't find. It was in a fucking, one of the big flashlights that has not the big, big square batteries in it. I had five rolls of $5,000 piece wrapped up rubber band in there in my dad's room. Then it searched, they didn't even search my parents' room at all. Okay. All right, so what do you do after that? Is he stopped cold turkey? You'd be becoming a good boy. No. I'd come at you the gas on the bitch ass. You know the spastic ass. That was a contraire after me. They already know what I'm doing. The fuck am I gonna stop for? Martin Trouble? Martin Carg. Oh my God. I'm like, what? I'm a courier for one. So it's like I'm all or nothing. I'm gonna give it 110%. I'm gonna give it no percent. Same thing I do in my relationships. But I'll go back to the childhood. Still like you were talking about earlier, you know? It's your plot. You plot what you learned to everything. So what he knows is how to make money and be invisible. So he grabs the $20,000 and goes on the run. I like three days later I went to Dallas. And I got me a, I got me a, I was staying at hotels at first. And then I got me a spot, low house, that I was overwritten somebody else's name, get the electricity and shit going on, somebody else's name, all that. And I started making credit cards there. My whole boy, my right hand man, it lived with me. He sold drugs. I sold credit cards. So I never had about drugs anymore. And he never had about credit cards no more. Worked out. Now during that time, the police were also looking for his brother, but he was hiding out too. But one day his brother made a mistake with one of the stolen credit cards. Okay, I, I have it in my notes that he was at an arcade messing around with quarters. He got like $200 worth of quarters at the fucking automated quarter machine with the credit card. With a stolen credit card. Yeah. And why was this suspicious at all? Because people don't buy $200 worth of quarters. I mean, not put them in their pocket, leave. Why would you put $200 worth of quarters in your pocket? It is, I guess you're right. I would have been playing video games. So he just goes into the arcade. It's grabs $200 worth of quarters. And it's like, I'm glad to see you. And the mall worker calls the cops. Yeah. And says this guy's weird. He put his spot $200 worth of coins and he's leaving the quarters. And he went shopping too. We had a whole bunch of sit under the car outside the mall. He helped him shoot under the car that he had been shopping in there all day too. He just followed the trail of quarters to the mall you'll catch him. I think it's like, shit, that's $200. It looks like they're macular if you get out of the court. So this is how his brother got caught. And since they caught him in the act, they took him right to jail. So they ended up catching my brother probably around November. And they got arrested in Dallas. And I had already knew a bondsman. So I called the bondsman and had the bondsman go get him right out. And he got out. His brother was out of jail, but not for long. Stealing from the mall is one thing. But running a huge stolen credit card ring is another. So the feds came and arrested his brother and took him to jail a week later. Oh, they couldn't bond him out the feds. When the feds got him in the US martial detainer was on him. Yeah, and they ain't no bonding out the feds bro. I had $100,000 cash. I tried to get him out and they told me I was fucked. So I ended up paying $20,000 for a federal lawyer. That was the biggest waste of money ever. So your brother is stuck in jail? I can't get him out. You can't get him out. I mean, that was my best friend, you know? My best friend was my sister. She died when I was 13. She was killed in the drug grab and accident. Oh, no. My little brother became my best friend, you know? So was a drunk driver a hitter? Yeah. Were you in the car, too? No, it was her and her boyfriend. And then two other people in the other vehicle. All four of them were intoxicated. Your sister was intoxicated, too? Yeah, she was under age and she, like, I got a, we won a $5 million loss who didn't get to stay in this problem. I was under LLC, so I'll never get another money. Wait, how did his dad has ride been coming to this story? It was not in the story. It's into the story of my sister dying. He on the bar that they were at drinking underage and we investigated that and went there. We got video events, shit, and we won in court. Okay, so was it the car that your sister was in? That was the drunk driver? Was it the other car? Both of them. Oh, okay. But everybody was drunk to both cars. Holy cow. What an awful situation that I is. Lose your sister at 13. Yeah, it was true. That was probably my first real traumatic event in my life. And that's why I started using drugs. It's why I'm not blame God for everything. That's why you know what I mean? That's when my life really took time for the worst. Really? It hit you hard. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, getting a knock on the door at four o'clock in the morning, two police officers being there in your 13 years old in your answering the door, your mom and dad, because somebody's being on the door at four o'clock in the morning. And then you hear this. So it's like, yeah. Our parents didn't know how to get with losing a kid. So how could they help us cope with losing a sister? Yeah, right? They're probably losing their mind. They don't have their grief and they can't help you, right? You're right. I didn't do that. What are they going to do to tell them? What are they going to do to help us? So you had to find your own way, which is drugs? Right. That was my escape. God damn. My escape from reality. And then once I figured out how to escape from reality, I mean, you escape from reality forever. I mean, this time I've been over like five months. You've been sober right now for the last five months? Yeah. Oh, good for you. That's hard. You know, it took me to lose in probably the low in my life to forget. Wait, hold on. We started this call. You told me you had a bang in front of you. I do. I didn't say I smoked weed. We can turn to bed. What are you smoking? I don't know what to believe with you. I don't believe I just took a bond group. It's sober for five months. Yeah. Okay. So, um, so your brothers and Jail, your, uh, your stressed out on this, you're hiding out from the cops. I'm going to be a little bit more patient. I'm going to be a little bit more patient. I'm going to be a little bit more patient. I'm going to be a little bit more patient. I'm going to be a little bit more patient. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. asking you to come to court and you're like, nope, I'm not coming. I'm wanting. So my brother's baby mama, Elizabeth, she's staying with my cousin and another half of the old cliff. And I get a call one day that she was talking to the the the super service trying to get her to herself in. And I find out about it. I go over there and tell her to get in the car. She gets in the car. I tell her to give me her phone. She didn't even her phone. I took a battery out. I took her out to the window. I broke the ambition habit. I thought we got the one that I ever talking to, I'm a killer. Damn. The kidnaptor. What you kidnapped Elizabeth? And then she started getting home met them fed me and the night she's in jail still for met them fed me. I turned her out. Fuck, drive off. What? What? Didn't got high before. I got a half of the first time she's been doing met them. Oh my God. What? My brother got custody of both his sons because he could take all that stuff. But yeah, he got custody of both of his sons because his baby mom was a peasy shit. My baby mom was a peasy shit too. She got back with the guy that molested my kids. But you're the one who turned her into a piece of shit by getting her hooked on meth. It's not my fault she stayed addicted. First. What is this? This is the... You need your own. You need your own TV show. We... Someone needs to be following you with a camera. You were pulled by a light, bro. We'd be all be rich. We all be cool. I got to help you. Welcome. I bring you a kid. No, like, Jersey Shore would have nothing on you. You would just be like... Well, this is real live reality. All that shit that they do is like script and shit. Yeah. So the indictment comes out. It lists Nathan, his brother, and his brother's wife, Elizabeth, saying they were stealing credit cards from chicken express and then using those at Walmart. Nathan was still wanted though, missing, hiding out, and still making stolen credit cards. I had a booting gear. A witch lady come from Mexico. Or what? A booting gear? Or some... Yep. It's like a witch person in a witch doctor or something. You know, they worshiped Santa Marte. Why would you get this? So they confront my house. How much did you pay them? I like 200 bucks. So what happened was... So I was in the burn that candle in my house, one of the Mexican candles, and it stopped burning. So my homeboy was still standing over there. The cops that came to the house looking for somebody, but it wasn't for me or for him or anything. It was some wrong house basically. But I panic. And so I wasn't never going back there. And somebody called me and told me the candle was going out. I go to the candle. The candle's going out. Never got the candle lit again. So she could channel her spell and keep her still protection over me. At well, network, I was on the fucking channel 4.8, 11 news, Muff wanted, top 10 DFW, you must've wanted by the US marshals. And they're looking for me in my ass. So I dropped my escalade off, got my lectures. And we went and got our OCS for Oakland swipers. We had a little swiping clip called Oakland swipers. And we went and got our OCS tattoos, me and my cousin and one of my shoppers. Tattoos, are you on the run from the feds? And you're like, guys, we need suffocates tattoos on the way out of town. No. Yeah. I was like, okay, okay, okay, swipers. Oh, cliff, cliff swipers. Yeah, I saw about it. It called Oclip. That's my hood. Yeah. Oh, Clip. Yeah. That's my hood. Put it in this face. Get that shit on the stool. Yeah. This thing what you want. Boy, tell me. It needs to be the opening intro music. Oh, that's my hood. Yeah. Ha, ha, ha. My main girlfriend shows up at the tattoo parker. So I got both my bitches there. They didn't know about each other. Yeah, they know about it. The side bitch knew about it. They didn't. The main bitch liked the side bitch side bitch and you're before. Okay. Okay. Yeah, that's how it usually works. My cousin told me I got you because so I make both my bitches in the back seat. My cousin resident, friends, we go to my cousin's house. My side bitch goes in the half for me because my cousin, my main bitch, they'll get long. They had each other. Yeah. So she'd be like, you didn't come in my house. So this bitch, I started my Lexus. I'm in the bed with my side bitch, my cousin's house. I wake up the next morning, make some cards, roll the blunt, go start looking for my cousin, roll his butt. She goes Nathan to come to you. My cousin, she had doors opening in the front of the house. I was cleaning and she's seen a sicker service car pull up. Every single service says it's originally with one dials, the troll car. When they came to a resident. And I don't know how they got the anonymous tip there. I'm pretty sure it was my main bitch's fucking mama. I'm about 99.9% sure. And it's all good. You know I was gonna get caught up in the anyways. So I'm glad it went down like it did. Nothing get hurt because I ran everybody out of the house. My cousin's Mexican, she got like three kids at the house with her. I got both my bitches are out of the house. I ran everybody out the house, put on my body armor. Got my AR 15 loaded that bitch. I had 1030 round clips. But I was ready for war. I didn't know what was happening. I thought I was going to prison for the rest of my life, bro. Wow. So I was ready to die. So you cleared everyone else out of the house. And then you loaded up body armor and and armed yourself with all the weapons you had. Yeah. And you you flashed it out the windows and the door is like, Hey, stay there. Stay out. In screen front porch, bro, on the underneath the car port. They had to screen on it though that where you could see out. But people can see it right. Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. So I was sitting there watching them for six hours, bro, while they were surrounding my house, the tank pulling up in front yard and putting the robot on the porch throwing a phone in through the door, shooting flash bringing to tier as I'm sitting and watching these fucking idiots taking their cheer gash and flash bringing me. And I'm sitting out here on the front porch watching these fucking idiots the whole time, bro. Oh, dang. Yeah. They didn't know you were on the porch. I picked them off. I might want to get all of them. But I could have picked them off, bro. I really want to. They wouldn't even know. I mean, after the first couple of shots, I mean, I already got a couple of them before they got me. Oh, yeah. They wouldn't drag ball like that. Not at that point in my life. I mean, this sounds really intense. Were you scared? Were you tense, though? Were you high? I was hyperventilating. I was a cold sweats. Like it was, it was, it was, uh, it was an underdreamer in Russia and, uh, sadness and, uh, it's over with all at the same time, you know? So I just took a fuck, just took some hydrocoated on it, took some Xanax, went in the house. Soon as I went in the house, my eyes started burning like a mother for a cryin' like a baby. So I fucking put on some big ass glasses, a record chaluron, my head got wet, and went to the door. And then I finally found this phone that they threw in through the window and I pick up the phone, just the house just negotiated, get some of the phone time, you bitch, I don't wanna talk to you. Put, put, put, put, secret service agent reads on the phone. He said, yes, sir. You got a phone. Some is reads, these dials police are gonna kill me, bro. They're treating, they took this, they got these tank out here in the front yard, they got the guy named SWAT, they got the, uh, the commands in the band down with the end of the block. There was a actual tank in your yard? Bro, they had dead snipers on the hospital across the street. Damn. Okay, what, how did they know that you were like armed and dangerous in there? Well, you must have showed them like, hey, I've got these weapons like through the window or something and the stairs are packed. Like three rounds into the ceiling and a man came to the floor. You shot the ceiling? Yeah. And they, and they at the door, they saw, so they came all the way to the door and they saw you shooting the ceiling. They were in yard, they were in the yard within the tank. They had like turned on the tank to let they shoot tear gas. They're like, they're like, they're easier than Waco. Secret service, like they're very professional, bro, and they're very chill and laid back, bro. Like I said, I got these, since this is a, since we don't know if there's anybody else in the house, you have to come out and surrender to them, but as soon as you surrender to them, I'm gonna come and get you. I said, that's your word. And he said, what are you, what are you demands? So, I'm gonna talk to my kid and I'm gonna spoke to cigarettes and I just wanna call my parents and my kids, tell them I love them, tell them I love them. He's like, we come out peacefully, you got my word, you got that. I was like, that's your word as a man. He's like, that's my word as a man. And so I was surrendered peacefully, after eight hours. Holy Mackerel. Okay. I didn't like that. So I was for them, they were fixed to come in, wasn't like the next five minutes, they were there were fixed to come in and get me. So I probably have been dead. Yeah. Yeah. Did they honor their word? The cigarettes everything they did, it's the service, I didn't even get put in handcuffs by the Dallas police. And he, when he arrested me, he put his dip ties on me and put him in front. And he let me sit in the front seat with him when we left, when we drove off, I was in the front seat with him. And the other agent was behind me. And he gave me his cell phone, he said, car you kids. We got down to the grassy note, where Kennedy got shot. Said, you know what I'm trying to run, are you? Said, nope, we said, if you do, I'm shooting the back. Let me sit down on the grassy note, I was about three cigarettes, four took me to Lou Starrot. Lou Starrot, Justice Center, is the main Dallas County jail. And as you could guess, he was facing tons and tons of charges at this point. They were slapping him with charges of things he didn't even do. Like, anytime that there was a stolen credit card incident in Texas, he was getting charged with that. Every back, one of the computers that had been purchased from us, they had been finding somewhere or something. And they found out they had some top pornography on it. And but my lawyer had a special investigator. And somebody had bought the laptop before us and taking it back to Walmart and then my shopper purchased it. Okay, so at this point, your brother's in jail, his ex-wife Elizabeth's in jail, your in jail. Yeah. And Cory Davis, this is in jail too. Cory Davis, let me see what I have on him. So this guy, it was an accomplice. He was the one that was getting credit cards that morning from him when we got ready originally. Yeah. So they're just across street for me. Dude couldn't feed his kids, him and his wife lost their job and couldn't feed their kids, pay their bills or nothing, so I'll go to them on and then they tell them. Oh, he was your neighbor, yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was cashiering for you. And when the police got to him, he got scared. He just got scared for his own sake, man. He was like, I don't want to go to prison forever. What do you want to know? I mean, this is the thing about snitching. As everyone says, don't snitch, no snitch. But then when it's like, well, you got 40 years in prison or you can snitch. And then suddenly the reality hits people. Well, I got to look for like, my little brother, because me and my ex-wife raised him. It's her little brother. And he just got five years from murder. But what? I mean, he did do that. I was with him, did the murder. And my little brother didn't know he was doing the murder. I see. And we got out and blew somebody's head off on a motorcycle. My little brother only got five years. But he got like 15 years because he got a whole bunch of other shit too. But they know who won part of the murder. So, don't get in five years short. Have you ever diagnosed yourself for any mental situations, like ADHD or anything? What's the other way? Well, I know diagnosed yourself. But have you been like, are you officially anything, ADHD? Or? I have ADHD, dyslexia, intermittent explosive, anger disorder, PTSD, extreme PTSD, extreme anxiety. That's the, did I say bipolar one or two yet? No. Yeah, I got them. That's what I've been diagnosed with by the doctor. What's some of your favorite music, musicians? Two-pock. Yeah. I listen to wrong music, like death metal, like heavy, heavy, heavy death metal. You know, like, you know, Bronstein, a slipknot. A slipknot, at the court. Okay. I was gonna say slipknot. Brakshit, music. ICP? Yeah. Sometimes you become, say, every fucking layer is broke. Oh my gosh, I bet they are. But your clowns. Yeah. Okay. Where will we be? Oh yeah. December 2010, Nathan, his brother, and his brother's wife Elizabeth were all in jail. And Nathan's brother and Elizabeth had kids. His son with Elizabeth is with his grandparents. And then his other son with his other wife is with, his birthday mama. And my big brother, my big mama. But when I got arrested, my kids were with my parents. When my wife left me, she left me with no car, no nothing, and three kids. Like, she paints this whole story. She got everybody pictured this whole story that I'm the evil person. You abandon me and the kids. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like I abandoned them eventually anyways, because I went to prison for so long. So I feel like I abandoned them too though. And I did, you know, but at the time, when you have no means of making money, I thought when I was 70, I got my first computer job working for South Western Bell, doing tech support for Pacific, down the bottom, and South Western Bell. I used to work for Microsoft, I used to work for Rario, web hosting. And I worked in network operations. And I could have had a, did promising computer career. But I fucked it all off because it drugs. I was doing cocaine. I was doing cocaine, lines of cocaine. When I worked for Earthling, getting it. Earthling. Yeah, I remember Earthling dial up. Yeah. I was doing lines of cocaine on the disk. With the trainer. With the trainer. Train from Seattle will come down. Come get me. We go to Oak Live Games of cocaine. He smoked cocaine on top of a weed and tobacco pipe. And I do lines of cocaine on the table. He'll be like, I'm gonna go get Michael. We're gonna go work on some cranium material. We do all this on the clock. Crazy motherfucker. No, Kate. I don't think. I think, I think I heard Link bro. They tried to fuck us bro. I was, I crashed their stock bro. This is like, what? What? Yeah. I crashed their stock bro. So like, it was Earthling mind spring merger, right? Yeah. Sprint took over best degree because they own 80% Earthling. That's the way back when they had that short, a URL shortener called CJB.NET. Remember CJB? No. It was a URL shortener. So I made ELN sucks. CJB.NET, I worked in that block operation center bro. So I had access to the server room and everything, you know? And so I got into the company, the president of the company's emails and him and the vice president and people on the board and shit that were talking about how they fuck over to the customers, how fucking, because their service was shit bro, it was trash. And it was just a, anyways, so I posted these documents, all these confidence and information about how they got hacked one time and they didn't report it to nobody. But that back then you didn't have to. So I released all this, I could put it on CJB.NET website, this blue HTML thing with some snippets from the emails and fucking, I started spamming fucking MSN and y'all hooked stock message boards and their fucking stock was from like $32 down to $18. Damn, because like, this company comes here and they're now, got all these new employees and they're trying to re-nig on what they said they were gonna do. You know what I'm saying? I'm always for the little man. I'm always staying up for the little man. But I never went back. Yeah, I kept petting you didn't, yeah. Man, we get off track fast of this one. All right, yet still Nathan, his brother and Elizabeth are all in jail. Elizabeth pleads guilty and his brother pleads guilty. And the two boys actually said that they coerced Elizabeth and are doing it. So this meant she got less time in jail and so she ended up serving two years in jail. His little brother got four years in prison and the last one to face trial was Nathan. I played guilty. You spirit you can be accessed by fraud and then went to prison. He was sentenced to four years and three months in prison, three months more than his brother. Yeah, I ended up doing all of it. My brother ended up doing all of it too. And you know what, I mean, I went to prison brother, Buck of Rockstar, the whole time I was in prison. I stayed home, K2 and drinking moonshine. That's K2, that's a vitamin. No, K2 is like synthetic marijuana. Oh my God. Okay. So you do your four years, three months in prison, you get out and then you're a good boy after that and you've reformed yourself for rehabilitation in prison. Yeah, right. Got out, I got out the halfway house. I got out the halfway house. I got seven violations the first week I was out for drugs. Drive on intoxicated, getting caught in a stolen car, fucking. But what an stolen car is a rental. It just didn't get taken back when it's supposed to. Being out of district, not reporting into my probation officer. And she told me, Mr. Michael, you want to go to jail? You want to go back to jail? Or you want to go to, uh, then they put me on the code, the color code, shit, and I had to go to intensive drug treatment program, go one on one counseling for six months straight. Uh, no, I think a lot of people might have gotten out early because of good behavior. It's surprising to me to that you had to serve the entire sentence. There was no good behavior for you. Discharge my, my federal sentence and my state sentence. I said, in medium and close custody, I'm gonna look ahead. Yeah, I got, but I didn't listen to the police in the world. Why am I gonna go to prison and start listening to them? To get out early and see your kids. Yeah, but I want to think about that. The way they treat people in prison grows in humane. So why, if they treat, they don't want you to go to an app like I am. Okay. So they leave me in a cage, 23 hours a day, and they let me out of the hour day, where am I gonna do when I get out for that hour? It's just like blocking a dog in the cage for 23 hours a day and letting them out. All right, so you get out of prison and how does it go wrong after that? Well, I got a girlfriend pregnant and I had like, I was at a hotel and I was sitting there one day. I looked at man, I had three different businesses and three different rooms. I know what to do. In one hotel? Yeah. Man, you were like, what's the secret to your risk? How are you attracting so many of these girls? Everybody's crazy. His brother, like my brother always asked me the same thing. He's like, how do you get so much pussy? How do you get so much? I don't know, bro, I don't go chasing pussy. Bro, it's just like, I was, I was, that's why I was telling people I'm posing to get chose. I just chilling be still, bro. It comes to me. It's crazy. Policemen get chose. I'm gonna try that. I was thinking of works. I mean, it works. Like, maybe my girlfriend broke up four months ago and she'd been dragging me for four months and I finally cut her completely off the battle week ago and I got two chicks already. Like, 45 and I'm still upgrading. Yeah. Okay. So you're in a hotel with three, three different ladies from the hotel and you're looking at it like, man, how am I supposed to juggle this? Keep going. Yeah. So it's like, you know, and then the guy that was down here like with us, he was originally involved in our fucking fat case, but he didn't tell you. He was one of the ones that didn't tell us they stiff and starts fucking with him again. And then me and him are out and fucking Fort Worth. We're going to Chili's because they had them kiosk where you just swipe right at the fucking table. Yeah. So despite serving four years in prison, Nathan went right back to carting, getting stolen credit cards, printing them on blank cards and using them to buy stuff in the stores himself. He was doing all his old tricks, wearing disguises and buying gift cards from Home Depot and Walmart. Oh yeah, and using them to get free food at Chili's since the ordering system is right there at the table. You could just keep trying different cards until you find one that actually works and pays for your food without the server getting suspicious, right? So he's riding in the car with this guy and they're on their way to get food at Chili's. Like we're turning on to get down to the highway and you run to Red Light with three cops parked at the Red Light right across through. The dude then did end up being a snitch, right? My brother's got a couple of pin and felonies because of him right now and my brother kept fucking with the dude and I told him a real low sign of the snitch and snitch because everybody, you know, people talk. You said he was a stiff guy though and he didn't though. But he ended up, he's not stiff now. Oh. He was just, he was just in another state in like Virginia or somewhere and he was in there for like three felonies like Lars and he had a whole bunch of other shit and he said they gave him time served in county for felonies. Where the fuck do they do that at? Oh yeah, county is not a felony place. You can't serve your time, you can't serve felony time in county. No. I don't think anywhere. I mean, I still, I can imagine like maybe a few weeks before they transfer you to the right place but not your whole duration. Yeah, but you might get time credited towards your filly but you're not gonna do your filly at time there. I agree with you. And then then what's the Alabama? So was this guy, nothing back here? Okay, so was this guy high or a stone when he was driving around like that? Yeah, of course we were. I was, I was on GHB and he was how on fucking mass and GHB probably. All right, so you're leaving chilies, you're speeding through a- What are you doing? Going to chilies, going through red lights, right past cop cars, keep going. I push, pull in right behind, turn, turn lights on, he pulls right over, don't even fucking drive five feet. He pulls the slams on a brake, pulls over. I got rid of all my cars, bro. The cops and kids me with no cards. They can kids me with no plastic. He's through about the window. Now I put them down the side of the window, down into the door. Oh, it's smart. Yeah, right in the glass, okay. Yeah. They can kids with no cards. They need a kids with no gift cards. I got rid of everything. They caught them, they caught my coat of fitness with everything. I got eight years, they got 10 years deferred, probation. Provation was never been option for me. They've never given me probation or offer me probation. Wait, so when the car got pulled over, is that when you went to jail or you got off? Yeah, I went to jail that night. Well, how? Because you didn't have the cards, how they know as you. The cops got the receipts and they're, because they were just, it's the car's pack full of shit. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That was just where the last place we went was Home Depot. And so we got all the shit. And they've been up over to our box, the security camera box. We got the MSR and that and shit. And they just, they, they, they grew up my name and they see what I would be in federal prison for. And they're like, what's the access to rice fraud? So they always ask me, we're talking to pull over. What's the access to wife fraud? You're losing your credit card or you get stolen? It's interesting how vivid Nathan's memories are in those moments right before being arrested. That must be like a flash bold moment for a lot of people, you know? Like you remember it, so perfectly clear. It's almost like those little ass moments of freedom that his brain holds on to. Or maybe he replaced those moments again and again in his head to try to think what he could have done differently. Anyway, the cops found swiping equipment in the car and quickly put the pieces together that he was still doing swiping. So they arrested him and took him to jail again. This time he pled guilty and they sentenced him to eight years in prison. And the main crime they were saying he did is that he swiped a stolen card at Home Depot and bought $2,200 worth of gift cards. Okay, so this is the second time you go into prison? Yeah. Eight years they put you in for for $2,200. Like that's a lot for just such a small amount. I mean, but they know I was doing more than that though. So what they, I mean, what are where there's not a, like Texas, I mean, you know how the fucked up the legal system is. It's fucked up in every state, I'm sure. It is, but what were they saying your charges were? I mean, it wasn't just the $2,200. Or swiping for $2,200. They charge me with engaging or I have criminal activity. But you fell any, the first one was they were saying you did a million dollars in damage. What were they saying here? They are saying that, and they're just a $2,200 worth of shit from fucking. It's just so hard that there's eight years in prison for $2,200 stolen. Tell me about it, but it's because they didn't charge me. It's like if I would have gotten cotton Dallas bro, they would have charged me with credit card fraud and abuse. It would have been a state jail felony maximum two years. Mm-hmm. But since I was out there and I got caught with two other people, they're doing this in Texas now, and they're charging people with a patient with a conspiracy in the state. And it's crazy. At that time, it's not a dollar amount anymore. See, so like they goes up and higher towards the how much the dollar amount it is. But once you're charged, once you get the enhancement of a gauge you can get more from like activity, it's enhanced from a secondary failure to a first degree felony. And then therefore, well, not. Geez, man. Okay. They're trying to give me 15, bro. 15, come on. My homeboy paid $10,000 for a lawyer for a foreign state. And they came down to eight. I took the eight and you went to prison for eight years. Yeah. And self-reformed while there and got out, you know, you're a good boy. No, I'm a good boy. Okay. We made it. Okay. Is the true? Are you doing good now? Everything I do now is ethical. Okay. So that. That's, but you know, it did took all that and all the trauma that I went through and what happened to my kids? Why was I in prison? My dad died. Why was I in prison and everything for me to finally wake up? What happens to your dad? My dad died when I was in prison, bro. That was horrible. Like two worse fears, something happened to my kids and I'm not being there when I was in prison. And then something happened to one of my parents while I was in prison. Something happened to my kids while I was in prison. My dad died while I was in prison. My two worse fears came through four years while I was in prison the second time. How did your dad die? He had a heart attack, I think. I mean, he was in the hospital and like his blood was set to get shit. Like he had a bad heart. Like he had health conditions for like 15 years. Pretty much his heart. He went, it's all broke. That's awful, man. I'm sorry, he went through that. Yeah. That, that, that, you know, he always promised to be there and shit, I didn't do that. I took peace in it because I knew my dad loved me and I know he knows I love Jim. So I found peace in it and that. But I never asked the questions that you always want to ask your dad when you'd already know. Yeah. Yeah, you know. I read your questions. Okay. Goddamn. It's crazy. And that, that's a snippet. That's just, that's just the one moment. That's just a blip on the radar. Why was mature at a lot of y'all older ages and women? Like I don't, I don't think it finally clicked it for me until I was about 38. So did you serve all eight years? Yeah. And I went back from a violation after that and they fucking held me for another fucking four months from Cox suckers. For violation, yeah. So that's a four years plus eight years. That's 12, 12 years. Like with the extra time that I had to do for the violation all the extra days. And shit is, I was pretty much about 13 years. Yeah, 13 years. And I was thinking you have three kids now. And two of those were there for the first one. And one was there for the second, right? So that's, well, no, all three were there. My, my, my 16 year old this year with me today. She was there. She was like one year, two months. That's why I got a restaurant to the feds. For the first time. I missed her whole life. Yeah, yeah. The middle one was three when I first got locked up. And the oldest one was six when I first got locked up. Mama, because it's three years apart. Yeah, that's a huge gap to not see that. That must be really hard. That's the hardest part right there. That's the hardest part. Because you can't ever be, not back. And now they're grounded in doing their own things. So you don't get times you want. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah, they're on their own schedule now. Yeah. But, you know, I'm in their life. And we have good relationships. I do, I do, I have good relationships with youngest and oldest for sure. The middle one, she still has a lot of resentment. She's, but she'll get there. Okay. You know, their mother paid a bad picture of me. She made me look like the monster. And where it was, we were both young and stupid. At the end of the day, you know? And we both made bad decisions. Neither one of us were perfect. That's the reality of it. And, but I take, we're thought to believe for all of it because I'm the man, you know what I mean? Oh, okay. Yeah, I mean, the mom was part of that Walmart scam anyway. So I know that she's not the thing. No, we both get it on each other and all that shit, you know? What a crazy story. I know, man, like fucking, and you know, all of the one who do now is like, when were kids row growing up? We didn't have nobody to look up to. Yeah. We didn't have hackers that folk and been doing this shit their whole lives to look up to because it started with us. Wait, are you telling me you're gonna be the, you want to be someone that people look up to? I want to be the one that helps save the world. And I want to help kid. I want to help children, bro. I want to help. You, I want to be the world a better play. I'm gonna, I'm gonna come out with first jail breaks for the fucking robots, bro. You wear a bomb, I should. I'm sorry, I'm pretty down the jail breaks for robots right now. Okay, you're gonna save us from the robots. That's right. Who else is gonna save us from the digital world? That could be a fair reduction. Well, when the robots turn on us and the computers turn on us, who's gonna save us? There's not gonna be fucking Joe down the street that's working on your car. You're gonna be croaking McDonald's, it's making your burger. It's gonna be you. It's not just me, it's gonna be all of us. Okay, I will buy your shit when it comes to robots. Could just take over and just kill us all. No, no, you gotta save us now. I'm hoping you're gonna do it. One day, we have a 50% chance to survive. AI, we have a 50% chance to survive robots. Okay. I think if you've survived all this, then you've got a fair chance of surviving the rest of whatever's coming. I don't know how you made it this far. I mean, could I wake up every day with a smile on my face? How many times did you come close to dying in your life? I was in a coma when I first got out. I had an overdose and by talking to the hospital, I was breathing at 30%. So they put me in a induced coma. And when I tried waking up, I'm a crazy on them and tried to bite them all. Yeah, I couldn't feel my legs, so I set up in my bed and told them a lot of that. I was having flashbacks, so I was in prison. I remember strengths off and everything. They had to have like eight people holding down and hit me with like three things to put me to sleep. And then fucking they got off of me and they started tying me back up and I woke back up on their bids. Jesus. Okay, so that was one time being close to death, any other times? When I was probably about 15s, I had some air from, I had a little air soft gun that I mean, I think motor cars with. Yeah. And I was hoping the air and my dad woke me up and I was choking on the throw up. My bed was covered in throw up and I was laying on my back out of the diet and my dad didn't wake up and couldn't get me. Yeah, see this is what I mean. Like you've survived all these things, not only that, but all the shootings in your neighborhood and the probably stabbing of prison. Miss out and stab. Prison was the worst. Like when I moved first got to Leavenworth, there was fixing to be a ride between the serenials and the whites and over TV. Yeah. And I mean, they're probably about, at least we made probably about 200 steak that night. But like, brand park takes, but knives. Jesus, it does your, you're arrival. And they're like, you got to join aside. Come on. We're fixing for war. Jesus. That's what I'm saying. You're buried, you get pushed over. Like it's just like in the world. You're in a sharp full of tanks. You don't be a guppy. You're gonna become a shark. Oh, man. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying is, if you've survived all that, then I think that you're good for the rest of your life. You've, you've, you've, cashed in all your lucky chips. I've been in there for three years now. So my versedism rate of going back to prison is pretty fucking low. Yeah. Yeah. And your survival rate is pretty high. You've gone through the worst things of your life and you're still doing good. I mean, you're still alive. I'm not going to get it. I'm still struggling. You know what I'm saying? But I'm free. I got my freedom. I got my health. I got people that love me around me. You know what I'm saying? So that's my blood. That's not my Zen. I say we leave it as that walking it, walking off into the sunset with your loved ones near you. I was good talking to you. All right, man. Thanks for the start sharing your story. Good. Bye. You're a good one. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.