Love, In-Laws, and Leftovers: Navigating Holiday Conflicts Together

Hi guys, welcome back to the Preview Alliance podcast. We are in the holiday seasons, okay? We're filling it and so are you. So I have brought back our favorite couples counseling for our parents. Hello, Erin and Steven Mitchell, who they've walked us through so many other things. So why wouldn't they walk us through the holidays? Welcome guys, we're so excited. Thank you so much for having us. Yes, we're happy to be here. This is such a big topic. We're really looking forward to tentatively looking forward to talking about this. Yes, we are tentatively, but it is important. It's so hard to say I was reading you said some questions ahead, you know, and said, Hey, these are some things we could think about. And I was reading through the questions. I was like, these are so hard to answer. I was like this. And then I kept thinking, I was like, why is this so hard? Because it is one of the most tension filled topics and times that we experience with couples without a doubt. Certainly. And I think the simple answer to that is it matters. We all care. Yeah, we do. It matters. Well, to rip the band aid off, we love transparency from you guys. So let's bring up something from your own personal act. I'll go ahead and really dive into it. Is there been because we like it brings out the messy of us, brings out the best, the worst, loyalty lies, you know, happens there. My family versus yours. Can you share something that you guys experienced in your own marriage with the holidays and how you work through it? Yes. How do you want to? How do you want to? I think I think I did. Sure. So when we started dating and then early married, we lived apart from family. So I would we I had gone to school in Seattle. My family was all in St. Louis. Stephen's family was in Arizona and Georgia. So like going around family was always us going somewhere. So this made it extra difficult or extra nice. There's pros and cons in this. But when we would go to St. Louis to see all of my family, it was pressure filled because we see them twice a year. We better be on best behavior. I want them to like get to know you. They they've you know, at this point, some of my aunts and uncles cousins had like met Stephen five times, you know, like we weren't dating and married by them. So I was like, this matters. I care a lot and not my intensity was high. And there was also this back story for Aaron's family, which, you know, Aaron has this larger family than mine. They have this huge, you know, holiday traditions around both Thanksgiving and Christmas, where it's just like we have this big family gathering, we all get together. People from the neighborhood come over. It's kind of like that epic, like what you think, you know, movies or something, holidays or like, and that was absolutely foreign to me. We, our family was not close with extended family. Every holiday was just my parents and then my two siblings. And it was just such a different environment in terms of expectation. You know, all I ever heard from Aaron was like, this is magic. You know, it was. And it was. And so then the expectation was like, so engage and enjoy the magic, like be a part of it, because I do, as Aaron was saying, like, she's like, my family knows you, but, you know, we, we dated and got married, right? You know, kind of apart. You know, we weren't in town. So there was a lot of expectation. And it also felt like there was kind of this. Mythical experience that I was supposed to have and that my experience was supposed to match Aaron's. I was going to walk away and be like, this really was magic. It's what I was supposed to. A lot of even how we're setting this up is hindsight, which is, we know a lot about this, but at the time it was just like, hey, it's Christmas. We're going home, you know, so like it's, it's going to be great. And I didn't even think to fill him in on like, yeah, there'll be, you know, 25 people for dinner. And then by the time like after dinner, there's like 75, 100 people at my mom's house, like that didn't occur to me. That's just what Christmas was. But Thanksgiving was very similar. It's similar. Um, but the first couple of times we went, Stephen got sick and I was irritated, but you're sick. That's what he's going to do. And I'm a more introverted person and large crowds and lots of people make me actually really anxious and I feel comfortable. And when I am anxious and uncomfortable, I get sick. Uh, okay. Also, I can look unhappy just because my face reads like, I'm anxious and uncomfortable. So, so this all happened. I'm having this experience. Erin's looking at me and she is just angry. And she's like, the way you are acting, the way you're behaving, she's like, my family's not even going to know why I wanted to be with you because you're not yourself, you're not, you're not fun. You're not talking. You're, you're like, you are like awful. Basically. And then I was sick and she's like, can't you get like, get better? Like, like snap out of it. Yeah. I, you know, not sure that was a direct quote, but it isn't far from a direct quote. Yes. Like, come on. Like, could you give a little effort? Because honestly, what it looked like to me is like, try. Like, you're seeing this as important. You really felt like I was purposefully kind of like checking out. And I felt like, don't you understand? I am so overwhelmed. Like this is so outside of what I know actually like socially, like how to do because I've never had to do this with family before. And we both felt really misunderstood. And then we, you know, when that happens, you start criticizing each other and defending and blaming. And, you know, we would, and this happened for a couple of years. Like holidays were just like, oh, great. I knew that I was going to go and I somehow was going to mess it up. Erin knew that she was going to go and somehow be really disappointed in how I brought myself to her family. And that really hurt her too. Because she was like, don't you want to like, don't you as my partner want to know my family and be a part of my family and enjoy my family? Like, in a sense, like, why don't you want to like be with me in these moments? So something that was supposed to be magical. And this is the reason we thought this was a good example, because we hear this from couples all of the time. So it's supposed to be, we want it to be something great, something like where our kids remember goodness, where like there's memories made, where there's richness and like connection. You get that, like you get, like you're passing down that family tradition and like kind of it's like a ride of passage and a new thing. I think, you know, for a new couple like us, we didn't have kids at the time in those early days, but eventually when we did have kids too, like these things were still very, very present. Yes. But then we do approach these things differently. We approach each other's family differently. There are ways that, you know, I would sort of turn into like ways of being around my family that Steven's like, who is that? Yeah, she would like disappear. Like Aaron in a crowd. Man. Like, are you running for mayor of your family? What happens to you? He is working that room. She's got like all this energy. She's talking and like, I would like. And as like, I'm not a typical extrovert. So he's like, this doesn't feel like us at a party. And I'm like, this isn't a party. This is my family. Like, and so Steven's like, who are you? Who do you turn into? And I'm like, who are you? Who are you asking me to be? Why can't you be yourself? You're resisting connection with my family. And we hear this from couples all the time. This time with the extended family becomes something people dread. Yeah. And that's terrible. No one wants that. That's not what anybody wanted. Steven wasn't like, well, hopefully Aaron eventually realizes I'm going to ruin this for us and we get to stop going like that. He wasn't like. Well, you know what? I'm not. I mean, sometimes that does happen, though. Like. Yes. The tension. Oh, that comes the outcome. That's one's intention. Right. Right. Is so thick and difficult to deal with that eventually there's just like sometimes we should do this. You know what? I'm not going anymore. I like I'm not going anymore. Why set each other up in ourselves for failure is like, fine, forget it. If you're not going to, I'm going to still go, but you do whatever, you know, and those are really where they don't go. And then there's deep resentment. It doesn't matter. Like either really damaging. Very damaging. These opportunities can be so damaging. So we had that. So that that was happening for us. And I think another thing that I think. But the quick resolution now we need to explain. Well, I just want to say one of the feelings too. Oh, yeah. I think surprisingly, both Aaron and I in a different way felt very isolated and very alone in these moments. And I think that a lot of partners feel that way. And that's a lot of the pain because Aaron's like, why won't you join in with me? You know, like, like, like be a part of this. Be curious about me. Like be a part of my life. Like this is my childhood. I want to share it with you. And I think for myself, I felt like. And I want to share my childhood with you. Yeah, like I was so excited for these people to see this person that I liked so much. And then I was like, I don't like you much. And that when I didn't do that, that was sort of the isolating alone thing for Aaron. But I think for me, it was like, hey, this is a new environment. This is a new situation. Like I don't really know your rituals and traditions. And there's like not that I don't like them. But I also I feel just a little hesitant. And when she would just sort of take off, I was like, you're just leaving me here to like. Yeah. Yeah. You're you're saying I'm sitting here in a corner by myself. But my feeling was, well, you left me here. And there is just that feeling of like, both partners are like, why don't you get me? Why aren't you here with me? And and how could you possibly mischaracterize me? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think the quick resolution, well, it took years, but is we talk because we weren't talking about it in any productive way. It really was just blaming mischaracterization. And then we'd fly back to Washington state and like, well. And then it was like, oh, that's better. You know, and that's how family is just like, oh, we'll just stay here. But I think it came the conversation came in just first of all, understanding like Aaron eventually being able to communicate like that feeling of, hey, like this, this when this doesn't go well, it makes me feel like you don't want to know about my life. And for me, I'm like, oh, like I want to know about your life. And I had to kind of come to terms with even though this socially can be uncomfortable for me. If I want Aaron to understand that I care about her and care about her life, I do have to like stretch myself a little bit. I have to do a little hard work and be a little uncomfortable and engage. I really do. And I can't just say, like, don't ask me to do that because it's uncomfortable. But then I think for Aaron, what I was able to say is it has nothing to do with like, I don't like your family or I don't want to be here. But like, I just like there's socially, there was just some challenges that I had. And that were in like just being overwhelmed and also just being nervous. Like, do I fit in? Like, you know, I to be quite honest, I was always kind of a shy person. I kind of a little awkward socially. So, you know, knowing that backstory, Aaron began to interpret my sort of hesitancy. Not as like, I don't love you and I don't care about you. But like this is challenging. And what we were able to navigate is I just said, you know what, sometimes I need to be able to just step away. I just need to like go and kind of recoup and reenergize and come back. But then also in these moments, like I do best when I locate someone in your family or a friend in your family. That too. Like, who's the low hanging fruit in the room? And it was my aunt Anita for you that I really like and connect with. And it's kind of a little bit like me. And like, I can I enjoy going and sitting and talking to them. I'm not going to be flitting or flowing around the room like you are. And so it was also Aaron adjusting that like, okay, like, so when you're standing by our good family friend, Wes, and talking to him, you're, you're like purposely engaging. Like, like that is you doing what I want you to do. It maybe doesn't look like that. And when you maybe step outside for five, 10 minutes, you're doing that so that you can stay like come back engaged. And so we just had to navigate that, but it did take years. But if we were having this conversation like we are now in hindsight, it would not have taken years, but we were too busy blaming and mischaracterizing each other and saying like, this was your fault. And here's how to actually have any sort of self-reflective process and conversation. There was no conflict to connection equation yet for the. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I think. Yeah. It's, it's couples being able to communicate about what they're afraid of and those feelings. I think there's really a lot of like, I feel like you're leaving me alone. And you're not caring about me. And you have to think about how that's getting translated in these interactions with your family, because it's different. I think it's not just, I think you're not choosing me or like mischaracterizing me, I think with family, it comes up with you're choosing them. Yes. I think that we need to dive into that because I think what happens is you get married and you can navigate it. Now kids, right? And then I tell people kids are that like, tipping point, the straw, the breaks, the camel's back because now relatives have more investment of you guys coming. Now that they didn't care, you guys came, they wanted you guys there at the holidays. Ooh, you've got this bundle of joy. And so now it is more weight to which side are you going? Right? Because I hear from a lot of friends and family, they're like, I don't want to run off with kids like a chicken with my head cut off. Or you guys, your situation, you can't be in this state and that state on the same holiday. Correct. Yeah. How do you handle it? Now kids are involved. There's weight to the game. Erin's going, I want my family. You're going, well, I want my family and your families are both kind of coveted from behind on each of you going last year with hers. This is mine, your big boy. Yeah. Yeah. And I think what complicates this is typically families have some traditions, right? So like it wouldn't have made sense in our situation to have chosen Thanksgiving. Like Thanksgiving wasn't at my mom's house. So like I'm not going to miss going home for Christmas. And Steven's like, well, my sister hosts things or Christmas. Why do I have to miss? Like she doesn't host Thanksgiving. So it is like you do start saying like, so who gets to pick who gets to choose? I do think that typically when both families, like extended families are willing to engage in the difficulty of that, because we have yet to meet a family who doesn't have some version of tension around this. So most people, when there's flexibility and everyone feels like, okay, I felt like you understood that my mom's would have been important and you get that this is a sacrifice. Like, of course I want to go to your sisters. Steven's sister is one of my best friends. Obviously I want to go there. I'm not saying yes to that because I'm just trying to make Steven happy. Right. But like you get what my yes means for me, right? It means I'm saying no to my mom's. And he's like, I do get that. People are much more willing to make choices when we all feel like we understand what are we talking about? And we feel like our extended families are gracious and say, I mean, my mom was like, well, I don't care if Christmas is on the 25th. Like we'll do that on the 27th. Who cares? You know, there are people who can be flexible. And then where I think it gets extra tricky though is when they're like, no, Christmas at 9 a.m. on the 25th is when Christmas is. And then it's like, oh. And then there's like this competition of like, do you value us and our family? Like, and I think that that does. Because honestly, when we had kids, Steven's like, I don't want to travel with kids. This is hard on them. We're like, this doesn't feel good for them. It's not fun for anybody. That's right. And he's like, but sure, Aaron, you need Christmas at your months. I mean, you didn't really say that. I'm just I'm being. I rocked. But like I came to love Christmas at Aaron's house. Like it was. But the point is like, but that's what you need. Forget me and the kids. Sure. Well, you know, and like, so that doesn't feel good. So, but I think when people really can't talk about like, this is what we hope for our family. This is what we need from our extended families. But when people start getting confused with their boundaries, as I think when couples start feeling strange to the point of broken, honestly. You know, and I think the reason this is so complex is because there's so much nuance and history to family. Yeah. And, you know, everyone has different levels of closeness with their family, different levels of expectation and even I wouldn't say guilt, but just like, I should do this obligation to family. And then there's like people love their family and they want to be a part of their family. And I think it's just really tough. I think, again, in our experience, Aaron had more of that traditional, you know, kind of rich rituals, like, you know, family all lived in the same area kind of experience. I didn't really have that experience. And so I didn't really understand the value of tradition of getting together of passing down these kinds of things. And I think part of our conversation to around this was trying to understand those things as well. And I think every family has to do that. And it's like everyone's got a thing when it comes to their history and what family means. Yeah. So I think sort of like summatively on this, people need to get real clear. Yeah. What do we want? What does your family want? What does your family want? OK. So like, what are the expectations? And then what are our hopes and our fears? Well, if we say no, they'll be upset. They'll be angry. Well, that never feels like a good reason to say yes. So then we go and no one's like, why are we even here? We both feel pressured to be here. You know, things like that. So like, how do we want to do this? Where do we want to go? What are our yeses? What are our noes? And then how do we communicate those clearly together? Correct. Because that is hard. It's universally hard to be able to be clear communicators together. Yeah. Yeah. Now, what do you say when it's who's responsible for telling their family? No. Is it my family? I should say no, we're not coming this Thanksgiving or is it my husband? You know, because I think that's sometimes where things get crossed, because in most traditional partnerships, there's usually one person that's got the family schedule running, right? They're booking the tickets. They know they're running it. It may not be your family. You know, you have to say no or yes to. And I think sometimes, especially the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law relationship can get tricky when it's easy to say, well, she's not letting me see my son and this is what we've done or my grandchildren, right? And the daughter-in-law is like, well, I'm always saying no. Or if the husband says no, it's still perceived as well. Your wife is making you say no. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So I think that we sort of come from the perspective of there isn't one right way. So I think a lot of people will tell you that like, if it's your family, your person. Yeah, I do lean a little bit, though. I think what I would say, too, if it's your family, you're the one who communicates it. But you have to communicate it in a way that says, this is something we both agree on. This is something we both are excited about. Yeah, not like, sorry, mom, I wanted to come. But yeah, even wouldn't let us. Yeah, like it has to be a joint like we are together in this. But I will say, though, that we talk, I mean, you are not surprised, Sarah, that this is something that comes up with couples we work with all the time. But I think a lot of times couples want to be looped in. So like in that communication, like because a lot of times in laws, grandparents go off the group thread and sort of we would call that triangulating that, you know, so it's Steven. So go to just Steven like, hey, have you nailed on your plans? And so it would be really. And this isn't always true. So if that's fine, and that's how the communication has been going, then carry on. But if I'm saying I want to be included in this communication, even if you're the one doing it, you circle back to the group thread and you say, yes, we actually have landed on it. If you want to talk in person, we can. But this is our decision. I mean, if you want to talk on the phone, I'm a person. This is where we've landed. And you bring it back like you keep because most couples we work with are like, I'm left out. It goes off. It goes and then I'm and I'm not sure what the communication has been. And then I feel like I am the one who's getting blamed, even if you that wasn't your little culture. I definitely agree with that. And I think also there's a way to communicate these things with more of a solution focused, positive view. Like, you know, hey, like we are going to go see Aaron's family this holidays. And we're really excited about that. They have, you know, they do some great family traditions and, you know, the kids are excited and I can't wait to go and, you know, Aaron's excited. And you know what? We're both really bummed that we even have to make this choice. We're going to miss y'all so much. Like. And we cannot wait for. January 15th, when you're coming to see us and we get to do our own version of this and I can't wait for how special we're going to make it. We do think that leading with the joint excitement, joint sadness and then joint. But we do want to see you. Yeah. It's really beneficial and being very clear, not like, well, we're leaning towards, we're thinking about that doesn't feel helpful. That's so confusing and leads to a lot of conflict. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Now, you know, because people might go on, OK, what is a good way that they can always do like a boot camp? Right. Like this is before Thanksgiving for Christmas. We still have time to get our stuff together as couples. What do you tell them? Like attack? Like, you know, like we say for babies coming, we need to get couples counseling, we need to buy this. What could they do as a couple now to prep them if it is for that nosy ant that keeps on asking when they're having the second one and they don't want that with it is the finances that are going to come up because, you know, we are spending a little much last year versus don't want to hate you at Christmas again. Because I did last year because you did this and I did this. So what would you say, like a little boot camp that they could tune in to right now, OK, we can do these three things. This is doable. We can talk about this. Yeah, I think what you just said is kind of spot on for the opening up. Like what didn't go well last year? What went great? Like what did we love and definitely want to repeat? What was not good? Like I ended up hating you at Christmas. Why? Like not like explain yourself like, OK, yeah, tell me how. Like let's not do that again because you on Christmas morning. I mean, I can't tell you this is real life footage right here. Like don't ask the kids, oh, would you get like, do you know how unseen that makes me feel like we were supposed to do this together? All that does is make me like, yeah, because you don't know. And now I'm all hot again. Like, oh, so you want me to collaborate about, OK, yeah. Oh, so you don't you don't want me to say like, yeah, you get the kids all the gifts. And then when I do, you're like, you spent too much money. Like, nope, you don't get to both give me permission to get them and then criticize how I did it. Like being a team specific to how you felt hurt the year before. Well, and I think honestly, Sarah, kind of the boot camp, I think it can be very simple. And primarily it's having a conversation before. But a lot of couples don't want to do that because they just fight. So they don't talk about it. And so it never happens. But if you want to have a good trip, you have to prepare for the trip. You know, you want to have a good birthday. You got to be prepared and organized for the work day. It's just sort of a basic principle. And I do think that you just said, Aaron, like, I think there's three questions you should ask yourself. One is what went well and what did we like last, you know, last year? What didn't go well and what didn't we like? And then the third being, how do we want this to go and feel for us? And when you do that, you begin to shape and organize what the trip and experience looks like. But I think you have to have the courage to have the conversation. And in the way that conversation goes, well, if it is collaborative, if it's not like, yeah, because you totally bombed it again, that's not going to go well. This isn't the time for conflict. This is the time for solutions. This is like, let's plan. Let's be on the same page. And you have the nosy aunt. So like, Stephen, like I give him the eyes across the room, like she's doing the thing. And so he comes over and it's like, hey, I need you for a second. Or like, hey, you know what, Aunt Gladys? I forget what name you just used, but like, that's just not something we're talking about right now. I am so anxious to say those things directly, Sarah. Like I have a really hard time, but Stephen doesn't. Stephen has no problem being like, you know what, mom, we're not talking about that. That's a really inappropriate question. And I will be like, my gosh, who says that? He's like me. I have no, like that's fine. Like you can say that too. But oh, you can't. I will say it for you. I don't mind at all. Yeah. And then, I mean, honestly, one of the things that was really good about having kids is taking every hour, like, oh, we got, you know, we're going to give the kid just a little quiet time. This is a lot, you know, like we're just going to like, don't go decompress. Take him on a walk, whatever. And you can make it, you know, like, oh, this is what our kid needs. But it's also what we need. Are we good? You doing OK? Anything we need to talk about? Any? Yeah. Anything we need to shift for this next, you know, whatever, and just have an ongoing check in to make sure we're OK. No, I'm good. Yeah. That was a weird comment, but I'm fine. And then honestly, the best thing is laughing about it, because Sweden Gladys, she asks inappropriate questions, but we love her. You know, we're glad she's there and we can be like, gosh, can you imagine the audacity and they and then laugh about it rather than feeling like it makes us so tense that like back to that, like the brittle. That's how we break and feel like, how could you ask me to be in a room with that person? You know, Erin and I very early in our relationship sat down with a therapist and we were talking about this very thing going home and this kind of stuff. Because, as you said, there were some challenges. And one of the things that she said has stuck with us always. And we talk about it with couples, too. And it is simply like a philosophical and kind of feeling that you are trying to have between you and your partner that says we are the team. Yep. We both are going to your family or to my family. And what we're trying to maintain is that sense of we are here together. So whatever allows us to continue to feel like we are here together, making decisions, interacting, considering one another is what we need to do. And our goal is that when we leave, we'll be able to look at each other and say, hey, we felt together. And I think all of these things are geared towards trying to have that happen, having the pre conversation, but also having the conversation in the midst of being there. And I do think, and you're saying, I think this is so important, Sarah, like, you know, the scenarios and conversations you might get in with your family that you don't want to get in. Yeah, the role play those out and say, what are we going to do? Like a very common one is when a couple has just had a baby and they're there. And they feel a little maybe reserved about everyone holding their baby. Like a mother in couples can go in and never have that conversation and then have a huge fight about it. Well, you know, you're going to be in that situation. How do you want to respond? How can I help support you in that? How can in those practical playing out the scenarios is really important. So it might be useful to sit down and say, hey, here's the top three scenarios that I don't like or I feel uncomfortable about when we go to your. Or I anticipate happening. Yeah. OK. Yeah. What what do we say? What what is the game plan? Yeah. The last thing, which I realized is sort of like a massive thing to be throwing in there, but this does feel like a really important thing to discuss is alcohol. Yeah. Alcohol turns couples all sorts of twisted. Oh, yeah. And I think just being very clear, there is often alcohol at these parties and around family gatherings. And there isn't always and whatever. But for a lot of couples, we hear like it becomes a source of contingent. So being very clear about this is what would feel respectful to me. How do you see this? How do you anticipate this and having a game plan so it doesn't surprise people? So I think that that is so wise, but also even how do we interact with people who are having alcohol? Yeah, with other members, because that can be very uncomfortable to and, you know, especially if you have your kids, like what will we do? What what are you going to do in that situation? That's a huge. It's such a big thing. So many people have like history of alcohol being a problem. So you're like in my family, there's a lot of alcoholism. And so I get nervous and Steven's family, actually, you have some of that, too. But like being able to say like, hey, I'm nervous about this and you aren't nervous in the same way that I am, even though you do also have that history. Right. But like I need us to talk about this. Even seeing someone like, oh, I don't know, they seem, you know, like just being able to and not shame each other like they're fine. Like that's how we are. Well, I'm not. They may be and you may be fine with that, but you have got to respect each other's anxieties, the things that scare them, the things that they hope for. Oh, even around alcohol. Yeah, that's a big deal. No, that's a big one. And I think what's so hard about this, too, and it's like you don't know what you don't know. So that is first couple of years as a couple. You don't know. And he's not going to think to say, oh, yeah, that uncle, when he does this, oh, my mom, yeah, she gets really particular about this one thing. So you didn't know if you move that face. Yeah, that's right. It was going to cause that. You know, so you just don't know. And then when you bring kids again, you just don't know, right? The baby versus a toddler going wild, you know, touching things. You know, there's just so many things that I think you have to give yourself praise, but I love the go back and say, OK, you know what, last year, yeah, we didn't think that your mom would have these ridiculous things that our child could pull and kill themselves over with. Right. Didn't didn't comprehend this year. What are we going to do differently? That's right. Yes. Or you know what, don't do the eggnog this year because you made me want to drown you in the eggnog when you did that. You know, right? I go ahead. You know, I think there's also this part because I think that this happened with your mom, too, like, you know, a lot of couples have good relationships and are close with their their parents or their in-laws. And that that's wonderful. And you can have these like preparatory conversations with them, too. Hey, you know what? This is something we loved about last year when we were there. This is something that felt tough, you know, whether it was because the kids or, you know, whatever it might be. And like, hey, could we think about this coming year? Like, what does this sound like for you? And you can even like play out like your plans and your expectations and what you hope for and have that collaborative conversation with them. If that's a strong relationship, because if you don't have that kind of conversation, what happens is everyone's imagination begins to run wild. And you begin to make a lot of assumptions about what people are doing and why they're doing it. No, you said this and you touched that and you didn't let me, you know, whatever it might be. And this is a way to prevent that, even with your family. And I love that. I think people forget that all the time. My mom was such a positive, healthy example of relationship. And even still, I would be like, well, we just do. I can't remember what it was like dinner at 12. That's just what it is. And Steven's like, could we ask? I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, yes. What a novel idea. We could. But we forget like we can bring other people in and say like, hey, this is actually really difficult this year and it might be fine again next year. But like that is like time in our toddler life right now that is not going well. Like the idea of coming at that time feels very stressful or whatever. So either can, you know, we start at that time or is it right if we come a little late? Like in that. Is it all right? I think that kind of language. I'm like, Steven, I can't do that. I cannot show up in this toddler at this time of day. There's no way to be like, OK, fine. So we say, like, is there any changing? That's OK. We're going to stay back then until 1 30. And that's fine. We totally miss dinner. We don't mind leave a plate, you know, whatever. But we're coming at 1 30, you know, those types of. But I think one of those really connective things you can do too, because I remember like if you can have that conversation with your parents or your in-laws, you can also ask like. What makes this helpful and good for you too? And I think one of the things that I learned for like Aaron's mom was all the like the pre kind of before everyone came over and all the prep, that was a big stress for her. And and there is a way where I'm like, well, I can help with that a lot. Like I can do as much as I can. And in a way like the idea was like, we're here at your home. You're an important person in our life. Like we want to help support you too. Yes. Not just ask you to. Yeah, we started going a day early rather than leaving a day early. For because that felt so good to me like, oh, Stephen actually asked one. That's never occurred to me. And two, like that felt so good for me like, oh, look at Stephen. Like he is engaging. Oh, and that feels comfortable engaging done. That's magic. I love it. I'm in those. I think that's such an important thing. That's a relationship too. And we are trying to respect just like we are trying to be respected. Yeah, that is good. So if you could tell our listeners are like, OK, we're feeling prepared, they've laid it all out for us. We know they overcame. Here they are happily talking on his podcast, you know, ahead of another holiday season. What could you leave them with of like each saying some words with them? Because I mean, you've seen so many couples like this is I guarantee you'll be called to January being like, can you believe what he did? You know, or she did this again. So what could you leave with them? Some nuggets to take if they're like, OK, Carpal's almost over. What do I need to know for this holiday season? I think mutually engage. If your partner says this isn't a big deal, like, OK, help me understand because it feels like a big deal to me. Engage what your partner's experience is mutually because people get bigger when they don't feel heard. If you're like, this is such a small deal. Why are you making such a big deal about it? Oh, maybe because I'm telling you something that seems important to is a small deal. OK, engage, engage, engage, engage, help me understand. Tell me more about it. OK. I don't see it like that, but I believe you. What do we need to do about it? How do you want me to be in that situation and people's anxieties when they feel met just like a toddler? This is not to call adults toddlers, but like try telling a toddler they're fine when they're not. Yeah. Try telling me I'm fine when I'm not. It's the same thing. So believe me, engage me in that, make a good plan with me. And I will feel OK, more OK going in because like, I don't have to be the only one looking out for this one thing I'm looking out for because you're going to be looking out with me. I can take a deep breath. Yeah, that would be mine. Yeah, I think I have two things in mind. I think there was only one. I know. I don't have to. I think I'll give you two. I think one of the things is just to come to your partner and say, I want this to go well. And like this is important. Like if it's gone poorly in the past, like, you know what, neither one of us like that at all. I want to try and figure this out and for it to be good for for both of us. But for both of us, because I think a lot of times there's just there's just contention and people just avoid. And then there's that feeling of we're not together. So I think you need to communicate to your partner. I want to be together in this. And then I think the second thing Aaron oftentimes talks about, you have to consider two things in any situation, which is you have to consider your hopes and your fears because they're very connected. When you hope for something desperately, you're afraid you won't get it. And so the fear is activated. Oh, I'm not going to get this. It generates a lot of conflict and it can generate a lot of anxiety. And so I think partners need to talk about like when the holidays come around. What do you actually hope for? You know, people usually talk about like, oh, you know, we want to feel connected and want to feel like a family and we want traditions and, you know, we want our kids to remember this time. Like, and all of these things are really good. Yes. Yes. You know, I want it to be peaceful. I kind of want to break. I just kind of want to be so like, you know, so much like, yes, great. But you have to know your hopes because oftentimes what you fight about is because you're afraid that that thing's not happening. And I think that when you feel like the traditions aren't being passed, when you feel like the kids aren't having a good time, when you feel like you're not going to get a break, when you feel like you're going to be overwhelmed, you start resisting and being anxious. And oftentimes what that looks like, you're going to walk into your partner's holiday Thanksgiving and they forget about you. Right. You don't want to go. But oftentimes what those fears look like is one partner will withdraw and another partner will become very attuned and active. And that kind of a tune. Yeah, that kind of interaction is generates sort of disconnection. And then to Aaron's point, so what you have to see is if my partner is withdrawing, they're trying to tell me something is important and it might be related to something they're afraid is not going to happen because they're hoping for something. If my partner is becoming what did you say? Hyper attuned. Hyper attuned is a good word. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hyper. There is a heightened. I have felt it. Yeah. My partner is becoming hyper attuned. They're trying to tell me something is important because they're afraid something they want is not happening. And if you can talk there, you're not talking about. You're a disengaged bad dad. You're not you care too much. Gosh, why are you always so anxious? You know, you know, it would make me happy this holiday season if you chilled out. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there can be more caring conversations, I think. And I get, you know, generative. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so again, I get like that's not a manualized like, you know, follow step one, two, three. It kind of is. Yeah, if you see the bad pattern. Oh, yeah, something's important. What's important? But these are the things that do work. Yeah, so that's what I would say. My one thing that I'm going to take while I'm going to implement all the things. And I know our listeners will now if they are like, OK, we need more of you guys. Tell us where to find you. What's going on? Is there more books? What's happening? Tell us all the good stuff. Yeah, so most certainly so you can't get our book too tired to fight and get a whole section on the holiday. Yeah, yeah, there is a whole section on the holidays. And we talk about our conflict to connection equation, which is sort of our standard process for helping couples work through conflicts. So you can get that, you know, wherever you get books online and then audio and audio. That's right. It's an audio book. It's really too tired to fight and who has time to read. Yeah, that's right. Totally to read as well. To close my eyes, too tired to read with my eyes. Yeah, but then our website, couplescountingforparents.com. And then our Instagram handle is couplescountingforparents. And then our podcast is couplescountingforparents. So we've been very consistent about the branding. But, you know, book, podcast. And then we do do individual and couple coaching with parents. And you can find us by we have a link in our Instagram and on our website where you can schedule a free console and stuff like that. And I will say, y'all's Instagram has some really good content. If y'all have never checked out their Instagram, I always am like, oh, did they read that? Or did I say that offline to them? And they're like, yep, Sarah needs to be called out right here. Because I'm like, this is correct. So it is always wonderful. Well, guys, I'm obsessed with you guys. I love what you're doing. I think parenting is hard. I think holidays are hard. Life's hard. And then when you head in having another relationship and then the multi family aspect of it, you just need someone like you guys to walk us through it. So I'm very grateful, as always. Thank you so much. And it is all hard. It is all beautiful. And you're not alone. We all feel those things. So yes. But thank you for having us. Thanks for engaging in such an important conversation, too. This really helps. Always. Yep. All right, guys, we'll be back next week for more holiday content. But I'm going to link everything for you to find here and it's even on our show notes. And we'll make sure that you guys can connect with them. So have a happy holiday season as partners together. We'll be back next week. Returnal mental health is as important as physical health. The Previous Alliance podcast was created for and by moms dealing with postpartum depression and all its variables like anxiety, anger and even apathy. Hosted by CEO, founder Sarah Parkhurst and licensed clinical social worker Whitney Gay. Each episode focuses on specific issues relevant to pregnancy and postpartum. Join us and hear how other moms have overcome mental health challenges as well as access tips and suggestions on dealing with your own challenges as moms. You can also browse our podcast library and listen to previous episodes at any time. Please know you're not alone on this journey. We're here to help.