Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of Business Wars ad-free right now. Join Audible today by downloading the Audible app. It's 2018, and in Brooklyn, New York, Athletic Brewing co-founder Bill Schufeld walks into the back office of a Whole Foods. On the surface, Shufelt projects an air of friendly confidence, but inside, he's a bundle of nerves. He's carrying a cooler filled with athletics non-alcoholic craft beer, and he knows the future of his company may hinge on the decision of the regional buyer he's about to meet. She stands to greet him and gestures toward her desk with a serious, slightly hurried expression. Bill, hi. Come on in. Now, I do want to be upfront. I'm only meeting with you because my colleague in Stamford asked me to. We've never really gotten into the non-alcoholic beer space, and we don't have any plans to. I'm not trying to be unfriendly. I just want to manage expectations. She felt just smiles. Since he left his high-flying finance job to start Athletic the previous year, he's gotten used to this response. For decades, non-alcoholic beer has been considered the poor cousin of the real thing, mostly associated with people who can't or don't want to drink anymore. But Shufelt is on a mission to change this perception. I completely understand. All I ask is that you try athletic with an open mind. We think it's genuinely fantastic, and everyone we've shared it with so far agrees. May I? Shufelt gestures to the cooler sitting on the floor. The buyer nods, and Shufelt opens up two bottles, handing her one. I'll join you. I'm driving back up to Stratford after this, but with Athletic, I'll be fine to drive. The buyer can't help but smile at Shufelt's sales patter, but only briefly, before returning to business. She leans in, taking in the beer's aroma, and then lifts the bottle and takes a sip. Shufelt watches her eyes widen in surprise. It's a look he never gets tired of, the moment skepticism gives way to pleasant astonishment. Is this for real? There's no alcohol in it. The buyer takes another deep sip, clearly relishing the taste. It's 0.5%, which is about the same as a loaf of rye bread or an overripe banana. This one's our flagship IPA. It's called Run Wild. Here, try this too. It's a golden ale we call Upside Dawn. Shufeld opens up another bottle, and the buyer eagerly takes a drink, now clearly excited. Well, I have to say, I am surprised. Shocked, even. These are genuinely terrific. It's not just alcohol-free. It's low-calorie, too. About half the calories of something like a Bud Light or a typical soda. How on earth did you make this? Most alcohol-free beer is so... well, you know. Well, it's usually made by brewing regular beer, then boiling off the alcohol, which just kills the flavor. We spent a long time developing a new method where the beer is alcohol-free right from the start. The buyer takes another sip of the Upside Dawn, then pauses for a moment, considering, before turning back to Schufeldt. Look, I don't usually do this right off the bat, but I think you've created something special here, and we have to stock it. In fact, I need to call some of the other regional buyers because this could work nationally. Schufelt's heart leaps in his chest. The backing of a major retailer is exactly what Athletic needs to grow beyond selling its brews online. And Whole Foods feels like the perfect fit for the innovative, premium, health-conscious brand he's trying to build. But Schufelt's joy is also tempered by a flicker of anxiety. Landing a national rollout is one thing, but actually producing the amount of product needed day in, day out, that's something else entirely. Shufelt's mind flashes to the 10,000-square-foot brewery he and his master brewer, John Walker, put together in Stratford, Connecticut. They're going to need a bigger brewery. And fast. From Audible Originals, I'm David Brown, and this is Business Wars. On the last episode, Bill Schufeld quit stock trading to create a great-tasting non-alcoholic beer with help from master brewer John Walker. Now that Athletic Brewing finally has a product, the business is moving on to its next challenge, getting that beer into stores. But just as Schufeld tries to scale his startup, a major competitor is preparing to make its move. Dutch brewing giant Heineken is about to introduce the United States to its own zero-proof beer. This is Episode 2. Bring your beer to work. It's late 2018, and in the fading light of a fall sunset in Stratford, Connecticut, Bill Shufelt is loading crates of athletic beer onto a truck. The crates are part of Athletic's biggest order yet, a delivery to national alcohol retailer Total Wine & More, worth more than $50,000, with cases heading to stores all across the country. Since landing Whole Foods, Athletic's profile has been steadily rising. Shufelt has already managed to secure deals with other chain stores across New England and beyond. But this delivery for Total Wine is by far their largest order to date. To fulfill it, the team has had to speed up production and work long hours to get it shipped on time. Schufelt lifts another crate and carries it towards the truck. Then he sees his master brewer, John Walker, running towards him with a look of panic on his face. Walker grabs Schufelt's arm, stopping him mid-step, and tells him he's worried this batch might be contaminated with dangerous bacteria. In traditional brewing, the alcohol in the beer acts as a natural defense against most bacteria, but athletic and other non-alcoholic brews don't have this protection, which means it's inherently more vulnerable to bacterial contamination. Walker doesn't know if this batch is actually contaminated, but there is a chance it's been compromised, or skonked as brewers call it. It was one thing to keep tabs on every barrel when they were making small artisanal batches, But now that they're fulfilling large orders like this one, the risks are increasing as well. The two men debate what to do, knowing that whatever decision they make is going to hurt. If they delay the total wine shipment, they'll take a major financial hit because they'll have to pour the entire batch down the drain and start over, which also means many hours of extra labor. But if they ignore the risk and contaminated beer makes it into consumers' hands, the consequences could be far worse. Sick customers, lawsuits, and a brand that's been damaged before it's even fully established. They also know it's not just their own company at risk. A high-profile case of contaminated beer could sabotage the entire non-alcoholic beer category. In the end, the decision is clear. If there's even a chance that one crate is compromised, they can't go forward with the order. They delay the entire shipment and begin pulling crates off the truck. They decide they need a more reliable solution to eliminate the contamination risk. So they invest in a machine to pasteurize their beer, a process that kills off unwelcome microorganisms that can ruin the taste, shorten shelf life, and make people seriously sick. But it isn't a small investment. The machine will cost over a million dollars, and it'll require additional money from investors, but it gives them something they didn't have before, confidence that what they're shipping is safe. As the months pass and athletics distribution continues to expand, Shufelt notices a shift in how people respond to the brand. He's still waking up at the crack of dawn to go to ultramarathons, Spartan races, and other endurance events to hand out free samples of athletic beer. But now, instead of having to persuade people to try it, he finds that people are coming up to him, eager for a can. Athletic is starting to develop brand recognition and a real following. And this growing popularity is reflected in the company's expanding order sheet, too. More stores and bars are lining up to carry Athletic. Shufelt increasingly has to put his efforts into making sure the young company's production operations and distribution network can keep up with the growing demand Because at this stage maintaining absolute discipline and efficiency is critical Not just because a single mistake could severely damage athletics relationships with retailers but because a global giant is about to enter the non-alcoholic beer market in America. Heineken. And it's already proven it knows how to sell zero-proof beer. It's 2015, around four years earlier, when Schufeld was still working as a stock trader and researching the non-alcoholic beer market after hours. In Amsterdam, Dolph Vandenbrink, the CEO of Heineken, has just returned from a trip to Germany with a wild idea he can't shake. While he was there, he saw people enjoying alcohol-free beer in bars. And when he looks at the data, he sees the same trend with younger generations drinking less alcohol than those before them. To him, the opportunity is obvious. Heineken should move into non-alcoholic beer. At the time, the category made up around 5% of the beer market across Europe and more than 10% in countries like Spain and Germany. Vandenbrink wants a slice of that pie. But he's also thinking further ahead. In the U.S., alcohol-free beer accounts for less than 1% of the total beer market. If Heineken can replicate non-alcoholic beer's success in Europe, there, the rewards could run into the billions. But inside Heineken, not everyone's convinced, especially the company's master brewer, Willem van Wasperger. At first, von Wasperger is appalled by the idea that Heineken would risk its reputation for making premium lager by venturing into the stale, tasteless world of non-alcoholic beer. The two must have looked almost comical while arguing over this decision. Vandenbrink is a lean, athletic businessman whose signature look is a suit with no tie. Von Wasperger resembles an N-shaped Santa Claus with long, flowing hair and a white beard. but he generally wears a white lab coat rather than a jolly red suit. Vandenbrink assures the skeptical brewer that he would never, ever compromise on Heineken's taste or standards. He insists this will be a real beer first and foremost. It just happens to contain no alcohol. And he's willing to give von Wasperger and his brewing team all the time and resources they need to get it right. It takes two years of work. Von Wasperger's approach is different from athletics. He uses a method called vacuum distillation to remove alcohol from regular beer and then rebuilds the flavor through a process he calls double brewing, which restores the aromas and taste profile, creating a non-alcoholic lager that tastes almost exactly like regular Heineken. When Heineken Zero Zero launches in Europe in 2017, it's designed to look almost identical to the original. The company uses the same iconic green bottle, but adds a subtle blue patch. The goal is to make customers' transitions from regular Heineken to zero-zero as smooth, subtle, and seamless as possible. And the strategy works. Across Europe, millions of people make the switch. From Madrid to Warsaw, the product is a hit in pubs, cafes, and homes. By the end of the 2010s, as Athletic Brewing is preparing to ship its first order for Total Wines & More, Heineken Zero Zero has become a flagship non-alcoholic beer brand in Europe. And now, with Zero Zero firmly established in Europe, Heineken has set its sights on the U.S. I'm Leon Nafok, best known as the host and co-creator of podcasts Slow Burn, Fiasco, and Think Twice, Michael Jackson. I'm here to tell you about my show, Final Thoughts, Jerry Springer, whose name is synonymous with outrageous guests, taboo confessions, and vicious onstage fights. But before The Jerry Springer Show became a symbol of cultural decline, its namesake was a popular Midwestern politician and a serious-minded idealist with lofty ambitions. Through dozens of intimate and revealing interviews with those who knew Springer best, I examined Springer's lifelong struggle to reconcile his TV persona with his political dreams and aspirations. Named one of the best podcasts of the year by The New Yorker and Rolling Stone, Final Thoughts, Jerry Springer is a story about choices. how we make them, how we justify them to ourselves, and how we transcend them or don't. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or binge the whole series ad-free right now on Audible. Start your Audible subscription in the Audible app. It's 2019, and Heineken is launching its new non-alcoholic beer, Heineken Zero Zero, in the United States. It hits the ground running with a bold, innovative, and funny ad campaign and a $50 million marketing budget. The central message of the campaign is, now you can. And it focuses on the idea that with Heineken 00, you can now drink beer in all those moments where you normally wouldn't. In one ad, an executive is giving a presentation in a boardroom. Partway through, he cracks open a beer, and when his colleagues look at him in horror, he simply turns the bottle around to reveal the blue label of Heineken 00. In another, a woman steps off a treadmill at a gym, takes a swig of beer, and then, faced with the disapproving gaze of her fellow gym-goers, flashes a grin as she turns the bottle around to reveal that same distinctive blue label. Wait a minute. This is a pretty big fork in the road, isn't it? Are these companies selling beer or selling something else? Here's the shorthand. Athletics pushing customers to develop new habits, change your life for the better with healthier beer, right? But it seems like Heineken's going down a different path. Live life on your own terms, only with beer. One is selling transformation. The other, a more convenient version of what people already do. Drink beer. The marketing differences between Heineken and Athletic also extend to the way the two companies handle their outreach and brand positioning. At Athletic, Bill Schufelt is still personally driving to ultra-marathons and handing out samples to endurance athletes. This is on-the-ground marketing, meeting with customers face-to-face and building the brand one interaction at a time. Heineken? Well, they're operating on a completely different scale. The company has the financial and distribution muscle to roll out 0-0 nationally by giving away 10 million free sample bottles. It can also afford to sponsor global events like Formula One and the U.S. Open Tennis Championship. Then, Heineken launches an irreverent, eye-catching campaign, National Bring Your Beer to Work Day, and it enlists the cast of The Office to help promote it. These star-studded campaigns seem to show results. In the first three months of 2019, U.S. sales of non-alcoholic beer are up 6.6% compared to the same period the year before. On the surface, Athletic and Heineken are happy to say that the market is big enough for everyone and that the growth of the non-alcoholic beer sector will benefit all players. Representatives of both companies attend the same trade fairs and speak on the same panels, all claiming with smiles and back-slapping that the two brands are not in direct competition. And to a certain extent, that's true. This is still a growing sector. If Athletic helps grow demand for non-alcoholic beer, Heineken can benefit as well, and vice versa. The more non-alcoholic beer becomes a thing, the more both brands stand to gain. But at the same time, business is business, and both companies want to secure more of that market growth than their rivals. And for Schufeldt, the situation must be worrying. He thought Athletic was ahead of the curve, but now Heineken, one of the world's biggest breweries, is swooping in to gobble up all that growth. If Athletic wants to keep up, it's going to have to lace up its running shoes and move quickly. You know, this is the moment every category pioneer eventually faces, when the market it helped build attracts a giant rival. Early advantage doesn't guarantee lasting advantage. Once a big player arrives, the game shifts from invention to execution. And so from here on out, it's not just about being first. Now, it's about staying relevant. Shufelt knows Athletic needs to scale if it wants to keep up with the fast-growing demand. So in March 2020, the company takes on a second brewing facility in San Diego, making a significant new financial investment, raising another $17.5 million to help fund it. Up to that point Athletics beer was brewed on the East Coast and then shipped across the country which made West Coast distribution expensive and inefficient This new facility changes that It allows the company to increase their West Coast footprint reduce shipping time, and keep up with demand more effectively. As Athletic heads West, Heineken is gearing up for another major marketing campaign, one that builds on its bring your beer to work day. Only this time, it's not just a day. It's the entire month of April. But just as that campaign launches, people stop going to work. As COVID lockdowns spread, offices empty out, and bars, restaurants, and much of the hospitality industry shut down almost overnight. The entire beer business is thrown into chaos. Across the world, millions of barrels go undrunk. And in some places, brewers are forced to get creative, like in Manchester, England, where Heineken's team finds a way to turn seven million pints of untapped beer into green energy. At first glance, it looks like a disaster for the beer industry. But beneath the surface, something more complicated is happening. The pandemic disrupts people's drinking habits. Some people start drinking more heavily. But others begin to cut back. And this shift helps to spur new interest in alcohol-free beer. In the first half of 2020, Heineken's overall global revenue slumps 16% as beer sales across the board plummet. It looks like a catastrophe. But within that grim picture, Heineken Zero Zero experiences a double-digit gain, especially in markets like the U.S. and Mexico. For athletic brewing, the pandemic has a different effect. Early on, when Schufelt was trying to get the company off the ground, he tried to partner with contract breweries to produce athletics beer. That's how almost all craft breweries operate. But none of them would work with him. Many simply laughed at him, saying there would never be a market for non-alcoholic beer. So instead, Shufelt was forced to find his own master brewer and scrape together enough money to set up his own brewery. At the time, it felt like a costly and stressful detour from his original plan, which was to run Athletic as a business with low fixed overheads. But now, as the pandemic unfolds, this decision is proving to be a lifesaver. The pandemic snarls global supply chains, leading to a backlog at all the commercial contract brewers. This hits small craft brewers hardest. And with so many bars and restaurants closed, some don't survive. But Athletic doesn't have to wait in line for anyone. It owns its own production, manages its own supply chains, and can keep on brewing, even while other craft breweries and major brewers like Heineken suffer. You know, early on, owning production looked like an expensive inconvenience. During the pandemic, that turned into strategic control. A workaround can become an advantage when conditions change. And conditions always change, even if you can't predict how or when. What may feel inefficient in year one can become your edge in year three. This is one of the advantages of being a smaller company. You can be nimble, you can adapt, and when conditions change, this flexibility can matter more than scale. By the time the pandemic begins to ease at the end of 2021, athletic sales are soaring. Shufeld realizes, almost in disbelief, they've sold 100,000 barrels of beer that year, generating around $37 million in revenue. They've come a long way. Only four years earlier, he and Walker were still experimenting with recipes in the family garage. Now, they're operating on a whole different level. As the company grows, it also begins to use celebrities to boost its brand. But it takes a very different approach than Heineken Zero Zero. Instead of using celebrities as the face of its advertising campaigns, Athletic brings them on as investors. NFL superstars like J.J. Watt and Justin Tuck invest in the company, as does Olympic cyclist Lance Armstrong, reinforcing the brand's connection to sports and fitness. And when celebrity chef David Chang also comes on board, it signals something else entirely, that non-alcoholic beer can have a place in high-end dining. It tells chefs that they can put it on their menus with confidence, and it gives customers an alternative to soda. when they want to skip alcohol without compromising their experience. But when Schufeld looks more closely at the data around who's drinking their beer and how they are drinking it, he discovers something surprising. Athletics fans generally aren't teetotalers. Instead, they enjoy regular beer and non-alcoholic beer, sometimes on the same night. They might be hanging out at a bar or at home with friends, and they'll have a beer or a cocktail for one round and then an athletic IPA the next. Athletics starts to describe this type of drinking as chaser, pacer, or replacer. Some people use non-alcoholic beer to follow stronger drinks as a chaser. Others alternate between alcohol and alcohol-free drinks, making it a pacer. And some people replace alcohol entirely with non-alcoholic beer. And as this pattern becomes more common, more companies start paying attention. Soon, more major brands are entering this space like Budweiser Zero, Guinness Zero Zero, and a growing list of other alcohol-free options tied to familiar names. Athletic and Heineken may have led the way, but amidst the growing competition, one question becomes harder to ignore. In a market they help build, how do they hold on to their lead? It's June 2022, and Athletic Brewing is taking another big step in its growth. The company opens a new brewery in Milford, Connecticut, six miles up I-95 from its original home in Stratford. Its old brewery had 10,000 square feet of space, which, when it opened five years earlier, was more than enough to meet nationwide demand. But now it's completely maxed out. Athletic won't have that problem in Milford. Its new facility is about 15 times larger and can pump out 450,000 barrels of beer every year. It's proof of Athletic's success, but an even bigger signal of just how far they've come arrives later that year, when soft drinks giant Keurig Dr. Pepper invests $50 million in the business. It's a far cry from the early days when Shufelt was pitching old college buddies to scrape together his first $20,000, and it reinforces his vision that Athletic shouldn't just be competing against other beers. It should also compete against everything people drink when they're not drinking alcohol. Sparkling water at lunch or sodas an afternoon treat. Schufelt set out to turn beer into a soft drink. And now one of the world's largest beverage companies is buying into his revolution. But while Athletic is expanding, Heineken Zero Zero still remains the world's best-selling non-alcoholic beer. And while Athletic continues to build its brand through grassroots connections, endurance sports, craft beer credibility, and community, Heineken leans even further into sports marketing. You know, sports advertising is tailor-made for beer for several reasons. First of all, whether in stadiums or at home, people like to drink beer while they watch sports. Advertisers call this occasion alignment, where you're being sold something while you're using it, and it's marketing gold dust. But it goes even deeper than that. Sports brings out wild emotional highs and lows, often within seconds of each other. And in those moments of euphoria or despair, we are far more vulnerable to sales messaging. In 2023, Heineken Zero Zero taps into this emotional whirlpool on one of the biggest stages in the world, the Super Bowl. The brand teams up with the team behind the Marvel franchise Ant-Man, casting its star Paul Rudd in a witty commercial centered around him feeding Zero Zero to his insect friends. Scott, you know the rules. No shrinking and drinking, obviously. And do not give alcohol to the ants, even if they ask. Not a problem, Hank. Alcohol-free. Stop this shit. Only a few years earlier, it would have been hard to imagine a non-alcoholic beer competing for some of the most valuable advertising space in the world. But by this point the category has gone mainstream and the economics have shifted with it Heineken sports push doesn stop with the Super Bowl either In May it extends its sponsorship of Formula One in a multi-year deal reportedly worth millions of dollars. Heineken also brings in some Formula One star power by launching a major ad campaign with Dutch superstar Max Verstappen, humorously playing on the idea that the F1 champion is fed up with always being the designated driver. But now with Zero Zero, he can drink beer and still drive. So, who's driving tonight then? Who's the best driver? There's a timing lesson here. Big marketing spends don't usually create demand. Instead, they amplify it. If the audience isn't ready, that money just disappears. But once consumers are ready, spending at scale becomes fuel, not risk. The hard part's knowing when you cross that line from niche into the mainstream. The entire non-alcoholic beer sector continues to expand massively throughout 2024 and 2025. And during this time, athletic brewing reportedly edges ahead of Heineken Zero Zero to become the top-selling alcohol-free brew in the United States, though Zero Zero is still the biggest non-alcoholic beer internationally. And here's something worth noting. While both Zero Zero and Athletic are experiencing a sales boom, sales of beer with alcohol, that's declining. There's a generational shift that seems bigger than just changing fashions. People are drinking less alcohol. The trend is accelerating. In 2025, only 54% of Americans reported drinking alcohol. That's the lowest number on record, down from 62% in 2023. Since 2021, a major index tracking the world's top 50 alcohol companies has fallen by 46%, wiping out about $830 billion in value. This shift is particularly strong in younger people. Gen Z, those born roughly between 1997 and 2012, are probably the generation least interested in alcohol in recorded history. The Zoomer cohort is thought to consume a third less beer and wine than previous generations. People have speculated about the reasons for this shift. Perhaps people are being more health conscious. Maybe they're spending more time with their phones and with their friends. The legalization of cannabis in North America might have contributed to this trend. Whatever the real explanation is, what all this means is that non-alcoholic beer has gone from being something that people avoided to being the fastest growing segment in the beer industry. And both Athletic Brewing and Heineken Zero Zero are riding that wave. But other breweries are also recognizing this generational shift and are pouring into the non-alcoholic beer space. The world's largest brewer, Anheuser-Busch InBev, now has multiple alcohol-free options on sale, including Budweiser Zero, Stella Artois Zero Zero, and Beck's Non-Alcoholic. And together, it claims, their combined sales now make the company the world's largest maker of non-alcoholic beer. So while Athletic and Heineken Zero Zero helped define the category, they're now operating in a much more crowded field. And for Athletic in particular, the challenge becomes clear. How do you keep your identity and your visibility when you're competing with companies that have vastly greater resources? Being able to dramatically scale up while still maintaining the core authenticity that first established a connection with their fans, that's a tough tightrope for any company to walk. But that's exactly the challenge athletic brewing finds itself facing as it moves into its next phase. In 2024, the company launches a new national TV campaign built around the slogan, It's Athletic. Ask for it. What do you want? What's that really good non-alcoholic beer I keep hearing about? Do you have that really great non-alcoholic beer that I keep seeing? Do you have a non-alcoholic beer that actually tastes good? It's athletic. You're holding it. The brand also uses some of the capital from Keurig Dr. Pepper to expand its international reach, particularly in the UK, Canada, France, and Spain. It's 2024, and in London, it's match day at the Emirates Stadium, home of the English Premier League team Arsenal. As fans cheer for stars like Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka, they can now refresh themselves with a pint of Athletic's flagship Run Wild IPA. That's because Athletic has become Arsenal's official non-alcoholic beer sponsor. There are few sporting cultures as strongly associated with drinking beer as English soccer, so the idea of a stadium like Emirates having a non-alcoholic beer sponsor feels bold. It's also a sign of how much things have changed and how far Athletic has come since Schufeldt and Walker began brewing their first beers in that little Connecticut garage. If you ask Athletic Brewing, they'll proudly tell you they're the number one alcohol-free beer maker in America. If you talk to Heineken Zero Zero, well, they'll just as proudly claim that they're the most popular non-alcoholic beer across the entire world. But perhaps the most interesting question isn't who's going to be the king of the non-alcoholic beer market, but will this market continue to grow? And that's a question on which hundreds of millions of dollars are now staked. There's no doubt that the risk Bill Shufelt took in quitting his job to start athletic brewing is an inspiring story. The company is now valued at $800 million, and it's helped revolutionize the beer industry. Likewise, the team behind Heineken Zero Zero showed incredible foresight in spotting a gap in the market early and guiding an iconic global brand into an entirely new industry. But other revolutions have also attracted mountains of hype and billions of dollars of investment, only to fade away, leaving investors disappointed. And this can be particularly true when it comes to food and beverage trends. A classic example is the dramatic hype that took place around plant-based food companies like Beyond Meat and Impossible Meat, remember? Both of those companies began experimenting with plant-based alternatives to meat in the 2010s. Investors started talking about a Tesla-like disruption in the food industry, and Beyond Meat staged an IPO which saw its stock rocket from $25 a share to $230, hitting valuations of $14 billion along the way. But as the months ticked by, reality began to set in. Plant-based meat was expensive compared to the animal sort, and many folks bought the products once or twice as a novelty, only to switch back to regular burgers and chicken wings. Beyond Meat shares crashed back down to earth, falling to under $1 in 2025. When looking at the non-alcoholic beer revolution, The question on everyone's minds is whether it marks a permanent shift in people's drinking habits or a passing fad like the plant-based meat hype. The answer is that only time will tell. The challenge has changed since Athletic and Heineken Zero Zero started out. Back then, the challenge was to make a great non-alcoholic beer and then convince people to try it. Now, the challenge is to convince people to make it part of their everyday lives, to turn zero-proof beer drinking into a routine rather than just a novelty. But something else is worth noting. We've spent much of this episode focusing on the alcohol, or lack thereof. But athletic isn't just competing with beer. It's competing with soda, with seltzer, juice. That's a much bigger playing field. If you define your rivals too narrowly, you cap your upside. The companies that grow the fastest and furthest don't just fight for market share. They redraw the whole dang category. the N.A. beer revolution for business wars. A quick note about the recreations you've been hearing. In most cases, we can't know exactly what was said at the time. Those scenes are dramatizations, but they're based on research. I'm your host, David Brown. J.S. Raffaelli of Yellow Ant wrote this story. Voice acting by Chloe Elmore. Our senior producers are Jenny Bloom and Emily Frost. Karen Lowe is our producer emeritus. Our producer is Tristan Donovan of Yellow Ant. Our managing producer is Desi Blaylot. Research by Marina Watson. Fact-checking by Gabrielle Jolay. Kyle Randall is our lead sound designer. Executive producer for Audible, Jenny Lauer Beckman. Head of creative development at Audible, Kate Navin. Head of Audible Originals North America, Marshall Louis. Chief content officer, Rachel Giazza. Copyright 2026 by Audible Originals, LLC. Sound recording copyright 2026 by Audible Originals, LLC.
