Agency Month w/J.K. Lyons from Conscious Minds - Just Shoot It 526

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law

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hey, welcome to the 526th episode of Just Shoot It, a podcast about filmmaking, screenwriting and directing. This episode is brought to you by patrons Paul Power and Susan. I'm Matt Enlow.

1:02

And I'm Warren Kaplan. And today we are talking to J.K. lyons, a creative director from Conscious Minds Company that both Matt and I have both worked with and really enjoy getting hired by them. So, you know, feel free to Harris as much as you want. But JK is a creative director there. He really shared a lot of his kind of POV on how work gets made, how directors get hired. Would you say that most of our listeners know what a creative director at an agency does? What percentage?

1:13

I would say a good number, but not. I think there's a significant number that's just traditional narrative and doesn't know what a creator director does for sure. A meaningful amount of people.

1:41

Yeah. And we talked to JK a little bit about that, but I think for you and me, it's kind of like the person whose opinion matters the most. It's almost like the, the studio chief or, I don't know, the writer of something on a TV show. It's like the writer, right? It's like, yeah, someone who trumps you in terms of, like, decision making and someone who has a big hand in deciding whether you get the job or not and whether you'll get. They'll hire you again. Right. If you did a good job or not. So there's someone that we care about

1:55

their opinions a lot and also someone who is very creative and very Skilled, but doesn't have exactly the same skill set that we do. And so they do have to lean on us. And you can push back on certain things and with greater success, because coming from a place of expertise, and they're coming from a place where they don't have that expertise.

2:27

Yeah. And maybe if we're experts in, when it comes to, you know, technical stuff and production, they're experts when it comes to the brand and marketing and how they've translated the brand message into a script that they are tasking you with filming.

2:50

Right. So I could say, hey, I think this is funnier. And they could say, that's against the brand guidelines. And that's the end of the conversation. That's it.

3:06

Like, GEICO does not like funny, funny work jokes.

3:14

Right.

3:19

So it was really fun talking to JK Lyons. What else is fun is that this entire month we're going to be talking to agency folks. People ask me a lot what our podcast is about, and I kind of say tell them that it's. It's basically directors talking about how to get jobs, which is most of our job is trying to get jobs.

3:19

That's not strictly true, but, you know, that's your favorite part, I would say.

3:40

Well, but what else do we talk about? How to do jobs once we get there.

3:45

How to make movies. Yeah, yeah.

3:49

It's how to book jobs, how to do a good job so that we get another job.

3:51

I guess we have, like, narrative filmmakers on. Do you know what I mean?

3:56

Right. But they. What do we ask them? We're like, hey, how did you make money before you made this movie? Now that you made this movie, what's your next movie? And also, hey, did you make any money making this? Because I think at least my interest, and I'm pretty sure your interest, too, though you'll admit it less freely than me, is like, figuring out how we have a long career in this industry, and that basically is based on building our reputation and our brand in hopes that we continue to get hired again and again.

4:00

Yeah, I think absolutely. That's. That's the. The thing that I'm most concerned with. I think that you and I approach it in slightly different directions. Right. That's all.

4:28

Yeah. When I go, you go wrong.

4:41

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that I see a little bit more overlap between narrative and commercials, and I think you're kind of tried and true on, like, commercials until you don't want to do commercials anymore, basically.

4:43

Yeah.

4:59

But I. I do think, like, thematically, we like to talk About, Yeah, the, the longevity careers. And we like, talk to either filmmakers and figure out how they're doing it or talk to the people that hire filmmakers. And this month we're going to focus on those people as it comes to commercials because we're talking to advertising agencies or I think, you know, our, our first couple people we're talking to are at agencies that are within production companies, production entities. Right. So JK is a creative director, but he also is part of the production company and is producing the work. Though we're going to talk to a bunch of others.

4:59

It is worth saying that, like, while Conscious Minds is kind of a hybrid deal where they're both agency and production company, JK is like, I think, still a relatively pure creative. Like he, he went to ad school. He kind of came up in that world and is a pretty traditional executive. Whereas I think further down the line, there are other executives who are a little bit, maybe coming from. At it from different perspectives as well. So it's really fun. I think I'm gonna say we're gonna do a meetup at the end of this month in celebration of Agency Month. We will invite the people who are local who want to come out and, and hang out with us and any of their agency friends. So that'll be cool. If you were a patron, you will get the heads up first, though. We'll make it public to everyone.

5:34

Yeah. And speaking of patrons, we did just have a Patreon, a patron only event that was surprisingly successful, I would say. And why do I say it's surprising? It's because we told people about it like just a few hours before it happened.

6:20

That's right. So we're instituting a new thing. We're doing office hours. Exactly right. So it's kind of like a. Just a digital hangout. So for people who perhaps aren't in Los Angeles and want just kind of like a little bit of time to talk to other directors. The thing that we get to do once a week thanks to this show, we're trying to kind of offer to other people. And we put it out on our Patreon to let people know, hey, if you're a Patreon member, come on over and, and come hang out with us on a. A Friday morning. And it was a complete delight. And we learned a few things about what makes a successful office hours and how I think we can make it even more fun and more fruitful for people.

6:36

Yeah. And by the way, I. I'm guessing a lot of people don't know this but you can join our Patreon for free. Like, you don't have to give us money. Of course. It's nice if you've got anything from the podcast to give a buck to. We're going to institute a new $10 level for the recommendation from our friend Johnny Stuckmire, who's been a patron for a while and who came to the office hours and who was incredibly brave in offering his website for us to critique. And it was so funny because Matt was like, okay, Johnny, are you sure you want to do this? Orin is going to be. He's kind of known for his brutal takedowns of websites. Like, if your font is wrong, he's going to. He's going to let you know. And he put the URL into our chat. And the URL is Johnny J O N N Y Stuck S T U C K Mayer M A Y E R and we were everyone. Everyone was blown to insult his website and no one had any insults on the context.

7:18

Have a mean. Have a meaningful conversation. Johnny was like, hey, I have some things I want to talk through and work through. And as a group, we all kind of like looked at it together and it was, it was so fun. It was really brave.

8:14

Question was really universal because he's, he's a DP director. And his question, which many of us struggle with, is like, should I advertise myself as a DP director or should I advertise myself as a DP and then have like a separate site for a director? And is there is a director that is also a DP taken maybe less seriously than a pure director that hires other dps. So I think it was a useful conversation for everyone to hear, but no one will because we weren't recording it. So next time, go to our Patreon sign up. We'll post our office hours on our Instagram. It's pretty much the only way to find out about it is either be a Patreon. We'll send out a message on Patreon and patreon.com or we'll post it on our Instagram at justruit it pod. So follow us in either one of those places if you're even interested in knowing about when these are going to happen. And by the way, I invite you to come give us feedback on the podcast and tell us what we can do better, because I'm sure 100%, an unlimited amount of things we could be doing better.

8:27

100%. Johnny, hit us up with I do love feedback. I think that just a Few other things about the office hours. One, it was. It was really cool because it wasn't just you and I giving feedback, the whole group in a really communal and respectful way. Like, you know, there was one point where Bo Barrett, a great director, was. Was on and I'd made a point about how like, I didn't love one gif on. On Johnny's site and Beau was like, respectfully, I disagree. I think this gif is great. So, like, the fun of having different point of views and perspectives, I think was really enriching. And I think it was just like

9:26

a cool, supportive crew of people director meetup basically.

10:07

Right.

10:12

And I was kind of surprised. Basically everyone on that came is like a working filmmaker in some regard. Like, it seemed like almost everyone there makes their living as a filmmaker.

10:12

So if. If that's not the case for you, that's okay too. But the whole point is, like, it's a good vibe. It's going to be fun. And if you have something like, Johnny, if you're like, hey, I've got. I really need to like, work through something with a group of people who understand where I'm coming from this next time around. I think we're going to try and facilitate people to like, come with a website or come with a pitch deck or whatever it may be. I think surprising us would be really fun. But ideally we can kind of work through a thing or two as our topic as a group in a fun, collaborative and respectful way. So if that sounds cool to you, go to patreon.com justutapod Throw us a buck or two or not. But that's the best way to be aware of when we are going to be doing our next office hours, which is like, I think we're going to try and make that a monthly thing. And also we're throwing this agency month party at the end of this month. So that's two pretty legit reasons to join the Patreon. Patreon.com just shoot a pod.

10:23

Cool. Let's talk to J.K. lyons, the Uber

11:23

driver got in a fight. We were like three cars back from me being able to get out. He's yelling at someone, gets out of the car and starts like trying to fight somebody. And I stood up, had a carry on, got out, said thanks and walked away. And then he started yelling at me. And I was just like, no, I'm not. Like, I'm not gonna watch this. It was the most like, New York moment of my life.

11:27

Yeah, interesting. So you didn't take a side and he dinged you on your passenger rating.

11:45

I think I gave him a five star.

11:50

Yeah. You're scared of him. You don't want to mess with me.

11:52

Yeah, easy to come find me.

11:54

I know I do always give the like stinky or smellier cars, like a higher rating because I'm like, no one else is going to help this person.

11:56

I know, I know. You got to spread the love, you know? Yeah, love it. It was on the, it was on the work. It was on the work card too. So it's like, it's a free ride. So what? Yeah, that's what I, that's what you get with a free ride.

12:03

Maybe a fist fight, you know, as a segue. Jk, you, you work for Conscious Minds, which is a kind of a unique company that you guys do both creative, you are the agency and also the production company, which is, you know, I think there's plenty of companies out there that do that, but they're less common and that's a less traditional model than the kind of Mad Men era. Sort of like production companies do the production and agencies do the creative sort of thing.

12:16

And can I ask one more question to even dive into that a little deeper is I've, I've heard people at Conscious Minds say that you guys do strategy too. Is that different than creative or is that the same?

12:42

Yeah, yeah, it is. There's, there's a, there's a distinction. You know, strategy a lot, A lot of times is just leading into like they do a lot of work honestly for you in like kind of giving you the why of like why the hell we would pitch this thing, why it makes sense, why people would like it. And can you. I find that.

12:54

Can you, can you define the difference between strategy and creative? Because I bet that there are plenty of people who don't know and I could, I could give a wishy washy answer. I think I, I think I know the answer, but I, I'd rather hear it from you, actually.

13:13

I think that like strategy is, is about like just more accurately defining audiences and audiences interests. Right. Like I, you know, probably on the Conscious Minds website is something like we're at the intersection of culture and, and something else, you know, And I think that's where strategy comes in. I do find that the best strategist are honestly really good creatives. They have really good creative ideas, but maybe just not the, like the, the execution for it, not the right lines for it, maybe not the right look and feel. You know, it's, it's, it's the first format. The best creative strategists give you the, the first formation of really good creative

13:26

ideas, you know, and like the kind of guide rails, right? Like the sandbox that you should probably be playing in.

14:08

A strategist would be like, hey, I think that this should be a TikTok first campaign and here's why. Based off of the brief or what you're aiming for, and then you're like, oh, this would be a good TikTok. Is that how you would slice it up?

14:15

Yeah, I think that's like, you know, that would be like, maybe like. And there's strategy. Strategy encompasses a lot of things. There's media strategists, there's creative strategists. Like, the strategies I work for are like, you know, have, have I think even more precise inputs than that. They may be like, hey, we're really noticing that like college students love this, love craft time and we should find a way to tap into crafts. You know, we should brand X should make. Do an activation where we invite people to scrapbook with their favorite TikTok stars.

14:28

That's a bad idea, but sure, sure, sure. Well, that's a bad.

15:03

I'm writing it down.

15:06

Yeah, I think that it's more like. I think that strategy is really like a good strategist is it's the art of noticing and being able to be like, hey, we should like maybe capitalize on this. And even further than that. I honestly like some of the things. Something we just made recently was like, my strategy was like, what if we just made this? And I was like, okay, stop. That's the idea. There it is. Let's make that, let's pitch that.

15:07

Was it the, the, the. The thumb scrolling thing?

15:32

Yes, yes. They're strategic.

15:36

Tell us about that creative. A little bit, actually. Yeah.

15:39

So. Oh, let's, let's. April Fools is, is like a, it's a pretty, like it's. It's a brand holiday.

15:41

Marketer's holiday.

15:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:49

It's a brand holiday.

15:50

Yeah, yeah.

15:51

And like, you know, I have my own thoughts about that and sometimes, sometimes I think that like brands activating on those days can be a. Be a little bit of disservice to them. The year prior last Aqua Fools, we had this really goofy thing we call them, we call them techcessories with the brand I work with, with Yahoo and we, we made a touchgrass keyboard. Just kind of like leaning into like meme culture. You need to touch grass, bro. Log off. People loved it.

15:52

That's funny. The keyboard made out of grass. Yeah.

16:17

So the keys have like turf on it and like little flowers and wait.

16:20

And when you say sold out, like you guys really made it and really sold it and people really bought it.

16:25

Yeah. I think that's something we're doing that kind of sets where it's commitment to the bit, you know, that's it's not just. You see a lot of brands, like a soda will post like specialist.

16:29

Yeah, yeah.

16:38

Or we're doing vinegar soda and you're like, okay, but we really make the thing. And this year the thing we made was a chastity belt for your thumb that covers your thumb so you can't, you can't touch your screen and scroll. Can't doom. Scroll. Yeah. And we shot it like, you know, like it was like a, like we shot it like it was like this like life altering, you know.

16:40

I thought you were going to say like a Nike ad too.

17:01

It's all like, like a Nike ad.

17:03

It's like high performance, like POV stuff. It feels like very, you know, it's like a lot of like shots of the image or the phone locked in. The camera perspective as a hand is moving around, you know.

17:05

Yeah.

17:17

Almost feels like an Apple ad.

17:17

Yeah, we, we. The thing that's funny you say that it was like a Nike ad. It's like what was some of our inspo. And we had all these, I mean we literally had cameras rigged to people's arms to like for the thumbs POV and all these great action shots. As far as it's being really silly and a joke, it might be one of the more like dynamic things I've shot. It's like super cool.

17:19

And that was for Yahoo.

17:38

That was for Yahoo. Yeah. And you know, because of last year, because the last year went so well, we got a lot of permission to play this year and be even sillier. And we just had like a white paper doc and my strategist was like, it was kind of based off of archery rings. Archery rings have this covering that you can like pull the bow back with. And they were like, what if we like made insane version of this so you can't scroll? And I was like, yep, that's like, it was like a no brainer. I was like, obviously that this ridiculous thing, all they needed is say yes and I'll make this. So. But yeah, I think that like, yeah, it's. I love it. It's. I can't believe sometimes they say yes to things.

17:40

I'm like, and this was your strategist's Idea. You were saying?

18:18

Yeah, just kind of.

18:21

Just kind of.

18:23

She was like, you know, people scroll too much. April Fools is a time where, like, people, like, are on their ph too. And it's like, why? You know, and. And it was just like, she was like, we should really just lean into, like, logging off culture. Like, get off your phone, stop doom, doom scrolling.

18:24

You know, so, so zooming out a little bit, actually, because I think this is helpful for people. And, and part of the reason I, I kind of want to explain all of this is because, like, I. I think, Oren, you always had a clearer understanding of how advertising work. I worked because you essentially worked as a creative when you were a window seat 10 years ago, back when we were starting this podcast. But I remember, like, my first branded jobs, you know, I was a director and college chamber would be like, hey, we're gonna make this thing, or whatever. And I literally didn't know where the creative director was and kind of thought of them as I was like, why are you telling me what to do? I'm the boss. I'm the director. I'm the director because I'm, you know, coming from the world of film.

18:39

And it was, you know, the final

19:24

calls that I make. The final calls. Exactly. And also CollegeHumor was a more writer and director driven space. You know, it was branded content. It wasn't traditional ads. So. So the, the. As we started doing more and more traditional work, I continued to be confused. And no one sat me down to be like, hey, buddy, this is how it works, right?

19:27

Yeah.

19:49

And so it was honestly like knowledge through osmosis until I kind of took on a couple, like, lucked my way into a few creative director gigs. And so you're in house at Conscious Minds and you're on an account. Yahoo, for instance. Right. Just as the example that we're talking through, that's your main account. So you have to figure out a year's worth of creative. How do you put together that calendar? How do you figure out what the big things are, what the small things are? And how do you navigate the production and, and ideation and pitching of all of that stuff altogether?

19:49

All right. You know, I think that that question looks different for every kind of account. You know, it really kind of. It really kind of spans. It changes with whoever you're working with. You know, it can change day to day. You know, within my client, I have like, you know, I have a lot of different responsibilities to different kinds of content. There's like the always on, like, social stuff. Right. And that's obviously a much different kind of calendar than, like, some of our bigger, like, they call them tentpole moments. And those are things that we figure that we have, we have permission that makes sense for us to activate around. April Fools is one. Makes sense. It makes sense for, like, our, our silly Persona to show up on that. And, you know, it comes without a give and pull. I think that brands have their ideas about when they're activating, and then I think it's, it's kind of. It's, you know, it's good for an agency. It's good for business to be like, what about these two? And those things all have to make sense. I think those things really actually do the best when they are led by strategy. Strategy is the insurance. Strategy is the thing that says, this makes sense because of X. And I work with my strategist a lot to agree on these moments to be like, well, what about this? What about this? I want to do something for summer. You know, for graduating seniors who suddenly realize I don't get summer anymore because I have a job. You know, let's, let's, let's find a way to talk to those kinds of people. So it's a lot of give and pull. It's a lot of working with your

20:28

client as an example of like, okay, like, oh, I want to do this for people who realize they don't have a summer anymore. That's a creative insight. Right? Sure. But is it like if it, if your brand was. You're on the Taco Bell account, you'd be like, okay, well, every single quarter there's a new chalupa that we're rolling out or whatever it is. And so, you know, okay, you've got the product rollouts. Those are going to be your big ten polls. And then, you know, maybe the rest of the calendar is filled out with April Fools or Cinco de Mayo or whatever. Each brand has its own specifics. So with something that's a little bit more nebulous. Right. How do you decide? Is it just the best idea wins or best insight wins, or are you anchored to things that are kind of bigger than that?

22:00

You know, I think that, like, I think that best ideas, if you set up a good work culture, if you set up, if you've created trust for your clients, typically, best ideas do win. You know, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of back and forth in that. There's a lot of, like, they have got bosses that they have to pitch to. And I think ultimately you're just trying to make, just trying to like, you're trying to take an idea and create a lot of clarity to it, you know, And I think that's like, what if a creative director does something best? It is to give people, to give people that you're around the client you're pitching. You give them easy yeses, right? Because like, everybody's got, my client's got a boss, they have to take it to their CMO and the CMOs got 10 minutes, you know, and how do I explain how to explain this ridiculous million dollar activation? You need to be able to like synthesize.

22:51

It's like a diaper for your thumb.

23:38

Oh, wait, yeah, exactly, exactly. Now I'm very fortunate because I think we've built a lot. We've done that for two years with our clients and our CMO is like one of the best CMOs I've ever worked with. That guy is like, let's be funnier, let's go crazier. But in the practice is you're trying to take ideas that are sometimes very complex, sometimes have 90 slides and a deck attached to it and make people understand and two or three lines, what they are buying, why they are buying it, who is it for and what's it going to do for them. And that can be like, this will sell more product. Sure. But some I'm, I'm more honest, like, hey, this is not a product play. This is, this is brand play. You know, this is so people see Yahoo more. This is so people see Taco Bell more, whatever it is, you know, or

23:40

to make the, make the brand seem cool. Right? Super common.

24:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I, I'm more in that, I'm more in that area. I'm more like an above the line. I rarely have to like make stuff that's like, you know, try my product.

24:33

But like, sure, sure, sure.

24:42

Right, yeah, it's, it's, it you're pitching. It's, it's sometimes you're, you know, you, sometimes you're making a deck that has six months of content in it. You're using strategy to sell a calendar year. You're saying, this is our goals this year. You know, something we were like playing with is like, and you know, we were like, what if we made Yahoo one of the most collegiate brands? You know, how would we do that? How would we talk to college students? I would, we have to show up on campus. Okay, we have to do this. We have to do this. And when you have an overlying like that, you're just trying to figure out your little pieces that all make sense. It'll ladder up to that core idea, you know, and then you can test everything against it too, you know? Yes.

24:43

Yeah.

25:23

Does this do this? Is this talking to college students? Is this, does this idea make sense?

25:24

Or is this hello, fellow kids.

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27:03

I

27:45

do think of like the focus group testing, like strategy, like all that stuff Feeling like strategy.

27:45

Ish.

27:50

And I know we're kind of digging in a lot into strategy, but. But the reason I think it's interesting is because before we started recording, I mentioned that a lot of people send me their spec commercials and say like, hey, what should I do with this? And I watch them and even though the filmmaking is good, they don't feel like commercials. Even though it's a 30 second or a 60 second video that has a product, it's like got a Ferrari driving or it's got a cool like a Tesla commercial or like a Nike commercial. But you can tell that there was never any strategy.

27:51

You know, there's no insight, right?

28:22

There's no insight. Yeah, it's a brand that doesn't make this type of advertising.

28:24

And when I say there's no insight, I think you know what I mean is every ad, every good ad is. Is saying something explicit to a person, a type of person.

28:29

Yes.

28:42

Right. Like, hey, you have a problem and this, this product solves it in some way, right? Not just, oh, it makes it look cool. Right. Like is the problem that you feel uncool, then you should drink some Coca Cola and you'll feel cooler and have cool hot friends. Right? Like that might be the insight and that feels really broad, but it's hyper specific. When you drill down and realize the difference between each Coca Cola ad over

28:43

the last hundred years, that insight that you just said to me strikes me as very much and I know you just are kind of joking. That as an example strikes me as an insight that new commercial director that's trying to make a spec spot would think. But that is actually not an insight at all that Coca Cola would ever have.

29:05

Have.

29:22

Right? Coca Cola isn't. Drink Coca Cola and you'll be with hot friends. It's, it's more about community, right? It's like, hey, everyone after dance class is drinking Coke and it's really about us hanging out together and we just happen to have Cokes or hey, Coke is now putting names and cans and we're handing. Yeah, but I, I don't think of Coke as a hot. I think is a little more hip.

29:23

My very first commercial was a Coke brand and they. Okay, maybe I shouldn't say this, I don't know. But like they were very explicit about the body types that they were allowed to.

29:43

Well, yeah, yes, but, but that is, that' like a different type of insight, which is when you have a sugary drink product, when you have a, basically a junk food product, you go really out of Your way to not show anyone that looks remotely unhealthy, you know, unless there's like, it's like a more of a docu style thing and you're. It's more about the people than about the types of folks are portraying. But I think all those things that filmmakers don't think about that even like, you know, your standard like person that's interested in acting and performances and storytelling and cameras is not thinking about like, like what would, you know, Dr. Pepper say compared to Mountain Dew, compared to all these things. And I think that insight is what separates a real commercial from a fake commercial.

29:52

I think an ads job, which is, I think different than a craft, a film or a piece of art. An ad's job is to be likable. And you don't necessarily have to do that with art. Art can challenge you.

30:34

That is interesting. So you think an ad's job is to be likable for people to like the ad to be likable.

30:49

That's. I think that's, that's like primary. I mean there's, there's, that's like the thousand.

30:55

The thousand foot and just be likeable.

31:00

Advocate isn't likable.

31:03

Well, what about like, hey, all these kids are starving. Please send money.

31:04

Oh no, I think that those are absolutely supposed to be likable. Right. In. In the sense.

31:09

Sally Struthers. Like, let's raise money.

31:13

Yeah. I mean it makes you feel good to do it, you know, and like you can save them, you know, and we can, we. There's probably a better way to advertise that, you know, I mean like there's probably a better job Peter could do. Could probably be do a better job.

31:15

But their brand shock, right?

31:29

Shock. Yeah. I do think that like those things are probably a little bit outliers, you know, those are like less of like a product that you're going to buy or try, you know, and like there's. It would probably be weird to see a really happy ad or really funny kid. That's.

31:31

I mean, I guess the famous ones from history are like the dare drug abuse ads or the truth anti smoking ads.

31:46

And those truth ads are so fun.

31:53

Yeah. And because they're not joking though, they're so funny.

31:55

They're like incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

31:58

Well, instead of showing people suffering, you can show people succeeding as a result of the help they got. Like there's positive spins you can do on those things. Obviously.

32:00

I think that like, I do think that like the majority of advertising though is to be like likable. And I think that, like, and to. And to not be like, overly challenging. You know, nobody wants to, like, figure out a riddle to understand that you have a new update to your app. You know, there are, there are fun ways of activating that and there are fun ways of, like, you do this goofy thing and you get this out of it. But like, advertising and marketing primarily is to be likable. And to do that, you need insights that are relatable. I think that, like, especially in the era of social media, you want people to be like, lol. I think that way too. Oh my God. My best friend does that. Or like my dad did. My dad said that to me the other day. And those things are. Those things are kind of the exchange that we're supposed to have, the conversations we're supposed to have. You know, it makes people feel like they're on the inside of a joke. It makes people feel like they're smart. Makes people feel like, oh, I get this and it gets me.

32:09

And they feel the same. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you know, and jk, I think that you specifically, we've worked together for a while now. You guys, especially on the Yahoo account, are really explicitly pushing in a very specific direction. It's social first. And like, yes, there's. You get an adage, ad age write up every once in a while. But it's really like the KPI, the key performance indicator, at least internally, is likes. Is it organic? Does it feel funny? Do we all agree it's good and that's.

33:04

They call it brand awareness. Sure.

33:38

Brand awareness. Yeah. But what I'm getting at is that I think that there were probably different accounts and different houses and agencies where, you know, the super bowl spot is the. Is the common currency. And that's a, That's a captive audience and a bigger budget, and it's meant to do a different thing. And then there's also, you know, companies out there where it's like really direct. What is it, Dr. What? It's a direct. Direct response marketing where it's like, no, we're selling a thing.

33:40

Like Sam Mailers, all sorts say the thing.

34:11

Yeah. Or even like, I mean, a lot of the team win stuff I did was in that school of direct response because we were like, hey, I want to move the needle on this specific product. And that's. Our KPI is like, did we sell more windshields? Right.

34:14

Yeah.

34:32

And we did.

34:32

Performance. Yeah. I think they call it performance marketing.

34:34

Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

34:37

That's right.

34:38

So each place kind of has its own, you know, signature style and benchmarks. But so it's interesting to me to think of you in terms of living in that, that brain awareness space, specifically.

34:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's kind of what I've always, I mean I've been doing. That's what I've been doing for the last 10 years, you know, for the most part. And it's what I like to do the most. You know, it's where you get, it's where you typically get to be the most silly and most fun and most conceptual thinking. You know, you can come up with an idea. You know what we worked on was the reply all thing for Halloween. That comes from like, it's an embellishment. It comes from a truth of like when you hit reply all on an email thread and you don't realize it and you get 60, 70 people.

34:53

I hit reply all to everything. I only hit reply Matt.

35:27

And I get annoyed at the non reply alls because they're like usually leaving one of us off of them.

35:31

Yeah, I'm like, what are you talking about?

35:36

More reply alls.

35:37

Yeah, yeah, only. Only reply all.

35:38

But emails have changed. Yeah, the currency of emails like has changed. Right? Personal emails for sure. On the topic of ideas, like coming up with fun ideas, quirky ideas and everything, I think, you know, we touched on strategy. I'm curious, like let's say. Pardon?

35:41

I said you call me.

35:58

No, on the. I'm trying to remember what random examples we came up with. You said college kids. College kids that realize they're going to the workforce, they're not going to have summer vacation in. Let's say that is the, the market that we're trying to reach and let's say we're trying to advertise to them, you know, Netflix or like something that will give them joy at their. On their schedule. What do you. What's the first step? Like how do you. Are you by. Are you chat GPT? Give me some ideas. Are you in a room with other people? Like how do you ideate ideas for. And let's just. I think because our. To me and I could be biased, but I think the sexiest type of commercial is like the broadcast TV spot. So let's say that's what we're working on. What's step one? How do we start figuring out what this commercial is going to be?

36:00

I mean like we kind of run the way, the way we do a lot of things and I think that agencies probably all have their own kind of ways but like we're like, why? We're not going to writers room. Right. We're throwing ideas up there. We white paper things. And especially, like, round one, I'm trying to be as eyes open as possible because someone might send me, you know, or we might work on something, and it's a full, you know, insight concept script, you know, and that's fine. Someone might send me one line, and I'm like, that's funny. That's it. Let's figure that out. But round one, I'm casting. Casting a wide net. You know, we used to like this. I hate that I'm gonna say this, but it's like, it's. It's. It's quantity leads to quality, and I. I want as many ideas as possible.

36:41

That's the clip for this episode.

37:25

Yeah, yeah. Yes. One more time. Said it one more time. No, no, no. But, you know, jk, I hadn't thought about this, but I have worked in places where that's not the philosophy where, like, you know, rather than throwing spaghetti at the wall and knowing that most of it isn't going to stick, but that it might spark something for somebody else and that you're just tossing the ball around, which I. I also believe is the best way to do it. If you are not speaking that language and you're supposed to roll up with, like, five killer pitches ready to go, and you're like, hey, I'm here to bullshit. And we're going to have those five killer pitches at the end of this hour session. But, like, you know, it's good to have, like, a thing or two to, like, float and get the ball started. But, like, sometimes there's the expectation that, like, you should be pitching a material kind of before even you're briefed on it. It's like, what is even happening, you know?

37:26

Yeah. That's how. When directors are trying to get jobs from creative directors.

38:24

Right? Sure.

38:28

Video directors, we, like, try to not. Not give too many bad ideas because we don't want them to. Oh, like, that's a crazy idea.

38:29

Then we would like, oh, what are you doing?

38:35

Right out the gate? He doesn't get what we're doing.

38:37

Yeah, yeah.

38:40

Agencies do that, too. We are like, hey, what's up? What if you guys did this and,

38:41

like, you don't get a response? You know, you could imagine Tim Robinson, like, pitching just, like, a hundred bad ideas and people like, yeah, we're not even talking about the same.

38:45

Exactly. I just. I like, I think that there can be a lot of pressure around what we do. You know, and I think especially when it comes to being a little bit funny, you know, funny is so. Funny is so subjective and it's indefensible, unfortunately, it's indefensible. I know, I know. I think I'm a little bit funnier than most people. I know Matt's funny. You know, Oren, you seem funny, you seem funny. But like when it comes, when it comes to it, especially when you're pitching something, if you. No one, no one's ever been like, hold on, let me explain the joke and won the, won the pitch, right? Like it just doesn't work.

38:54

But sometimes you have, sometimes you have to explain the joke. Like sometimes the person isn't funny.

39:32

Right?

39:38

To me, that is like a good litmus test is like, if you have to explain the joke, then maybe the joke still works, but you're just not telling it the right way, you know?

39:39

Maybe, maybe. Yeah. It is really hard, especially in screenplays. I've seen plenty of writers be like, oh, like at a table read, the actor didn't say it right. That's wrong

39:47

on the wrong syllable.

39:59

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Emphasis. But if one person is the deciding vote, if you have one decider and they're a CMO, CMOs are great at lots of things that I don't understand and I cannot do. But, but it is not funny and charming are not necessarily in the job description.

40:00

Sure, yeah, they. All they care about is if their nine year old daughter had mentioned it last week while she was watching some TV show.

40:22

Maybe.

40:28

Yeah, you know, it's funny though, is sometimes. That's a pretty good, actual pretty good test though, if it's relevant or not.

40:29

Yeah.

40:35

You know, but I think that that is where like strategy comes in. Because funny, funny and funny is. It is like, you know, sometimes a regional thing, you know, funny doesn't always translate to international scale. But like, but if your strategy's right and you're making a joke that makes sense for a certain audience, even if the people you're pitching to don't necessarily find it funny, they can, they can, they have different ways to have faith in it, you know, and so that's why you need to surround it with like, we're making this joke. You explain before you make the joke. But it's like so and so find this funny. We're gonna say this this way because of X. Here's the script. And you're protecting yourself. You know, essentially is what you're doing is you're protecting your work. You're showing your work and like explaining why something is funny and giving and again creating those easy yeses. Like, I don't know why that's, I don't know if it's, you know, I didn't find it funny, but here's 15 comments that are joking about it on TikTok. Yeah, we should probably do it.

40:35

I just did this campaign that's about this very specific mobile game and like almost all the jokes are related to like you would only get them if you play the game, you know?

41:35

Yeah.

41:45

And it's hard when you're casting actors and putting a whole production team around comedy that's like hyper specific to, you know, it's like that, yeah, that Seinfeld, the amex commercial where Seinfeld goes to London and he's doing the whole bit. You know, it's like the seventh inning stretch and like no one has any idea what he's talking about. And then he does the tour of London and.

41:46

Is that a 30 year old commercial you're referencing?

42:03

35. It's the, it's the best commercial about regional jokes.

42:06

Yeah, yeah. I think also jk, the strategy also does a thing where you're reminding people that they are not necessarily the target demographic.

42:11

If, absolutely.

42:22

If you're like, hey everybody, we are targeting, you know, middle aged dads and here's what we're, how we're going to approach them, then a bunch of people in the room can be like, oh yes, I agree. Yes, you should totally advertise at beer gardens. That's perfect. Ones with playgrounds. Love it. But, but you know, if you're like, hey, remember who our demo is or who this target audience is. It gives you a little bit of a hall pass if you can back it up with those receipts.

42:23

Yeah, you, you never want to be able to like, you don't want to have to defend something ever because you go, it's funny. Because I think it's funny. You lost at that point. Right. As much as I think that's a good benchmark, to be honest with you.

42:49

Sure, sure. But that, but that's not the argument, right?

43:00

Yeah, that's not the argument. And, and every good, every good marketer or even client, their, their response should be, was it funny to the people we're talking to? That's what, that, that's what a good, that's what a good client is thinking. And that, I think that's what a good like agency is trying to do is like, we're not, we're not being funny because it's, we Think it's funny. Even though we hope it is, we're being funny because this group that we're talking to is gonna think it's funny or they're gonna like this thing. It's pretty. It's pretty not because we want to make a short film. It's pretty because.

43:03

Right, right.

43:36

This demographic of stay at home dads loves awesome shots of tools, whatever it is, you know, like, yeah, I do

43:37

think that something that you said earlier, and I'm just saying it not for you guys, but for our audience who's like trying to find, figure out what their spec ad is going to be. As you said something about relatability being something that is like kind of a little bit of the North, North Star of a spot. And you think about that Yahoo campaign that you did, the April Fool's one with this thumb condom or whatever that stops you from scrolling from doom scrolling. Like there is not a human in this world that doesn't know what doom scrolling is and why you would want to stop it. You know, like, and to me, I think that's the best ads are the ones that, that are so relatable to everyone at every age. Like you think of, there's that movie Inside out too, the Pixar movie. And there's this scene where this, the parents and the teenage daughter are like yelling at each other. And I, and I watched it with my daughter who's not even a teen. She was, you know, probably eight when that trailer came out. And we both thought it was so hilarious. And I think if you can, if you could do it really right and relatable in just the right way, then it will hit different people for maybe different reasons or in the same way. Or maybe you do have like, here's grandma with her thumb, you know, protector. And here's a kid with his thumb protector. And you kind of show how this relatable thing is hitting different demographics. And so to me, like the other thing you said is quantity leads to quality. And, and I feel like I've always kind of thought like the first idea that comes to mind is like the same first idea that probably everyone else has had. And so to be unique or original or interesting or to stand out, you do have to go to like the 5th or 6th or 15th idea. And I think if you find that combination of something insanely relatable that everyone has thought of, but an idea that no one, barely anyone has thought of, and you mix those two together, then you get like this Yahoo thumb doom scroll protect, you know, the Hope scroll or whatever you call it. It's. It's like a good. To me, that's kind of like. Like the. The ultimate goal of, like, a good ad.

43:46

Yeah.

45:39

I usually find that, like, insanely relatable but not familiar at all.

45:40

Yeah, it should feel novel. But I also think that, like, people.

45:44

People, like.

45:47

People like feeling like they get something. People like feeling like, oh, that's funny, and I get why it's funny. And. And, yeah, I don't think anything. I don't think any other. I don't think any good ad was ever made that was too complicated. You know, nobody. People. People are interested in, like, watching a film and for those two hours trying to figure out what. What's going on. Sure. But, like, if you're doing that in an ad, I think you lose a lot of people. And, like, I always say it's a long. It's. I. We say. I have a term. I think it's kind of an industry term. We say it's a long walk for a ham sandwich. And it's like, you don't want to bog people down, right? Like, especially in the middle of their day, they're busy. Why are you making me guess things? What the hell is this for?

45:48

You know?

46:27

Yeah, I think that also just on the topic of, like, comedy, you made me think of, like, being in, like. Especially when I was younger, like, being in, like, an art house theater. And there's, like, a joke in a movie that's not laugh out loud funny, but, like, there's the guy who laughs to show that he gets the joke. Do you know what I mean? Which is like, I. I cringe at the thought so deeply. That bothers me so much if that

46:29

was your joke or the guy.

47:00

The guy. And the mentality, the philosophy behind it, right? Like, there's this thing of, like, I'm showing that I'm smart, that I get it, it's okay for a joke to be a thinker, for sure. I love a joke that's too writerly. I love cleverness, all that stuff. But comedy is involuntary, right? You're laughing not because you intended to, but because it was so funny and inspired a physical reaction. And like. And that's really, really hard to do, especially in 15 seconds. And we're not. Most of the time, we're not really aiming for that. We're aiming for a smirk. We're aiming for that little, you know, that smile, that little ping.

47:03

Right?

47:43

But, boy, wouldn't it be great if you could get a belly laugh of somebody out in 15 seconds, that'd be. Yeah, that's it.

47:44

Yeah, I think. Sorry. Matt and I just did an episode about casting, and we said, you know, when you're casting commercials, like, having a really quick read. You know, the first frame, you see someone. This is the nerd. This is the grandma. This is the, you know, frustrated mom. Whatever it is. Like, that helps because it's like. I mean, I've actually never heard the long walk for a ham sandwich line, but I really like it. Maybe I would do, like a roast beef, but. But it. We're trying to make that walk really short, you know, so you get the sandwich.

47:50

Make it short. That's. That's exactly it. Make it short. You know, there's a lot of ways to do that, too. You know, it's. It's being. It's being relatable. It's being. Your having your insights make a lot of sense. People should understand it. And then, I mean. Yeah. When it comes to casting, too, it's. I've always cast a comedian, and I don't care. I could be writing the most serious thing in the world. Cast a comedian, because. Comedian. You're gonna get something. Yeah. Or someone with a funny background. Cass. Improv. You know, it's. You will always get something from someone who is funny, no matter what you're doing. And it just adds another layer, you know?

48:17

Well, on that note. Oh, sorry. Sorry. I didn't mean to. I. I was curious because we're talking a lot about comedy, and I know you kind of work a lot in comedy, and Yahoo. Is kind of like a funny, silly brand, and. But I. I don't know how much experience. I know Conscious minds used to do a ton of work for Nike, the other brand we mentioned earlier. Like, is there a different approach when you're trying to make a commercial that's cool as opposed to, like. Like, funny.

48:53

Sorry, real quick. Hold that thought. Do you guys still have Nike?

49:14

Yeah.

49:17

Okay, great. Great. I was just.

49:18

Yeah, we still. We still have. We still have Nike work.

49:19

Yeah.

49:22

Yeah, I think so. I mean, like, I think that, like, your fundamentals are still there. Right? You're still trying to do insight, but your insight's gonna be way different. You know, you're still trying to do. And Nike sometimes. I mean, Nike does some pretty energetic, frenetic, sometimes funny stuff. You know, they also do. I wouldn't. And not like silly, but, like, they. They. They're not afraid of having a good time in there in their ads, for sure. Your insight's gonna be different. Your approach is going to be different. Your. Your. Your wins are going to be different. You know, a brand like Nike, you're gonna be. I mean, you're gonna. You're gonna want it. You're gonna want great. A great dp, you're gonna want. And not that you wouldn't like some of the stuff I do, but, like, there's so much more. There's so much more, like, visual dimension to some of that stuff, you know? But, yeah, I do. I think that, like, I think there's a lot of people that can work across many different brands. You know, I've worked on so many different things. I've worked on things from, you know, what do they call it? Fintech? Financial financial money or whatever it is. Or like, Robin trading. Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff. Like. Yeah, Forex I've worked on.

49:23

That was just to pay off gambling debts. So.

50:27

Yes. And it did not. I need to go back, you know, and I've worked on Lunch Meat. I've worked on.

50:29

That's the answer.

50:37

Exactly. I worked in Acura. Yeah, that's a. That was a fun brand. I love. I love Acura, actually.

50:38

I've been, like, really loving. Like, some of my favorite ads over the last couple years are from Gap. I mean, they've always kind of been famously good, but they do these really amazing dance numbers. And I do wonder, like, do you start that with, like, hey, there's this amazing dance group. Let's build the ad around them? Or there's an amazing director, amazing filmmaker. Or do you. Do you still think the quantity leads to quality in the. In those scenarios as well?

50:45

You know, that's probably a little bit different, you know, and all these. When they. They've built a culture of that they've been doing. I think they used to even do, like a Gap dance back in the 90s. I'm pretty sure. Like, they've been.

51:07

They've had 2000s. I. Because I remember very, very clearly.

51:18

2000. Yeah.

51:21

Well, maybe they went away. They did khakis and then, you know, someone's mad about Saffron. Like the whole mellow yellow. They had this whole kind of singing, dancing thing. And then it went away. And. Yeah, now I think they found a new crop of directors.

51:23

The first one was a Roman. Not first one, but there was a Roman Coppola Bullet time one, like where they're swing dancing in the cast.

51:36

Yeah, yeah.

51:42

And that's why. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

51:42

I was like, are you working there at the director's bureau?

51:44

No, I was a child oren. I was a child, but that's part of why I wanted to work at the church. Yeah. No, it was in the 90s. It was the 90s. You were.

51:48

Yeah, yeah, There. There's definitely. There's definitely quantity, Lisa. Quality in some of that. Whether it's. Whether it's the iterative process of, you know, choreographing it. For sure. You know, I guarantee you there was. When at some point that dance went away, and someone probably had 50 ideas that they pitched until they went, oh, yeah, we should bring back dancing. The dancing thing we do. There's definitely, like. There's definitely a huge iterative process in that, especially with something like that. That's a. That's a huge shoot. That's a huge shoot. A lot of money, a lot of writing on there. That's the empire. They do that once or twice, once a year, you know, so it's a massive thing. But that also, they have built a lot of legacy in that. So there's probably a lot of different strategic approaches to that and a lot of different relationships at stake there. And, like, you know, there's a lot of different politics that people are talking to and whatnot. You know, and that's something that they can. It's also something they can go back to. So it's. It's. The process probably looks a little bit different than that. And those things are all cultural insights. You know, that was like, Cat's Eyes. Perfect. And let's do this song. You know, they probably had a requirement to be like. But we kind of want to hit back on our early 2000 aughts vibe. So they were like, all right, we'll be new. You know, we'll bring in this, we'll bring in Cat's Eye. They're sick. Gen Z loves them. But also, we're gonna make sure we get our millennial audience with. What is it? Kellis Milkshake. Bring all the moisture.

51:54

Yeah, sure, sure. Yeah.

53:17

You know, and then they had that perfect timing of just coming on the heels of American Eagle.

53:18

Yeah.

53:24

Sydney Sweeney has great genes.

53:24

Yeah, exactly.

53:26

Yeah.

53:29

You know, all that stuff, it's following the same. It's following the same principles. Like, they're definitely have, like, insight. You know, they definitely. They definitely have a deck that says, we want to do X. Our goal is this. Our insight is this. Our concept. It's this. And, like, those fundamentals are there. Those decks probably, like, way different than the decks that I use.

53:29

Yeah. You know, and my dream that we never really get in comedy is that Someone comes like a creative or someone comes with, like, a perfect song, you know, hey, we've got. Yeah, we got Milkshake. Or we got this, like.

53:50

Sure. Every once in a while. It's just. They're so expensive.

54:03

Yeah.

54:05

You know, so expensive.

54:06

But are they, like. I mean, let. I bet you can get an okay song for, like, $50,000. Like.

54:07

Yeah.

54:13

You know, if you're doing it still,

54:13

that's a meaningful amount of money. You know what I mean? Yeah, 50.

54:16

50.

54:18

But to me, sometimes, you know, like, one of those gaps, like the. The song is making and breaking some of these spots. And for us, a lot of times, the music is just such an afterthought in the comedy world. You know, it's like, yeah, oh, we thought we were gonna get something composed, but now we can only afford a needle drop. And it's like, you know.

54:19

Yeah, if I had one wish. I wish I could. I wish I had the budgets for bigger music. Man, that stuff really make a spot,

54:36

you know, and it makes it feel

54:44

just so much more real and more legit.

54:45

Yeah.

54:48

Point Oren.

54:48

Yeah.

54:49

It's like there's.

54:49

There's nothing that hurts my part more than stock. Stock music is. Yeah, yeah. It's. It burns me up.

54:50

And on the other side, sometimes when the song doesn't fit the visuals, you do realize that it is a spec commercial you're watching.

54:57

Yeah.

55:04

The other topic, you know, that we were going to talk about, what are you looking for when you hire a director?

55:05

Honestly, the first thing that comes to mind is Vibe. And that might sound like kind of eye rolly, and maybe you guys hate hearing that.

55:09

No, I'm very nice. I'm very likable. It's fine.

55:17

I'm very nice.

55:19

No, Matt's so chill. Oh, no, you are.

55:20

I mean, you are.

55:22

I'm not chill at all. I know what I want. And I can tell you.

55:22

Yeah. The first time Matt and I met was through our productive squad, Angina. And she was like, you need to vibe check this guy, see if you want to do it, you know? And I, you know, I look at your book, all those things. It's fine. It's great. It was great. You're great. You're great. We'll work together well, and then we'll definitely work together again. Sure, sure. I do think that, like, Vibe is really important and for a lot of reasons. I think that for a lot of clients, coming to. Coming to set is one of the. One of the best things they get to do in a year. It's a really cool experience. You know, I think that, like, I still love being on set. I've done it for 10 years now. And you want that experience to be awesome. You want that experience to be awesome. And sometimes, you know, the person whose voice who might be loudest on set needs to be a voice that people want to work with. You know, it's really, really important. We also. And what I work in, especially with like scripting and comedy things, you need someone who's collaborative. And I won't work with somebody who doesn't want to, like, doesn't have their own pushes, but also isn't, you know, fine. Like, it just, it ruins the experience. I've made a lot of good work with people who are terrible, terrible people or not nice or mean or super insecure or like, you know, I can't imagine like raising my voice at work. And I'm old enough. I've been in, I've worked in advertising enough to hear people screamed and yelled at and stuff. And I just like, it's just not something I want to be a part of my day, not of my work. Whatever. Vibe. Vibe. Vibe, yes. Obviously credentials, obviously competency are parts of things. But like, for the most part, like where I work and the organization I work at, I'm getting people who come by word of mouth, who have a good, good litany of work people, you know, people who've awarded. I might even know, I might be like, oh, damn, dude, that's a great commercial, whatever it is. But I really find more and more that, like, there's never a loss for good talent in this industry. There's talent, talent is abundant. Good ideas are actually more abundant than we, we would like to think. A lot of people have good ideas. It's just whether or not you want to make it with that person. And like, I know that's super eye roll rolly, but like, you know, that's it.

55:25

It's a hard thing for people to realize that, like the good ideas on a good resume are the baseline.

57:41

Right? Baseline.

57:47

And there, there are other ways to stand out for sure. And like, they're going to be different for every different person who's, who's doing the hiring. Sometimes the book is really way more important than Vibe. But the. You. It's table stakes to, to be good and funny.

57:47

Good and funny. Yeah. I'm like, you know, it's that and then I'm looking for like, I wanna, I wanna work with somebody who, who is passionate and believes in their ideas. You know, I think the Director needs to be, like, the. One of the most conf. Needs to be the most confident person on set. Even if they're like, what the fuck is going on? They need to be the most confident person on set. But that really needs to be balanced with, like, being gentle and being kind and being. And being nice and. Yeah, I just. Like, I don't. I think that. I think this industry is. Is full of assholes and, like, let's stop giving them money, you know?

58:05

Come on. I need the money.

58:38

Like, you know, like, Matt and I have seen things differently. Like, whatever, you know, like. And those are. Those are good things. Like, we're gonna have disagreements. You know, Matt's job is to make the best thing. My job is to get the. Sometimes to get the thing done. And those things are often at odds. Like, all right, we got to go. We got to move. We got to move, you know, or whatever it is. And, like, you really need somebody who knows when to push and also knows when to concede. And, like, those are really important things in the advertising world because, like, you don't get to come back and shoot the next day. You don't get. You don't get, like, reshots. You don't get pickups. You know, it's. We don't finish. And everything is so economical in advertising. If you don't get a shot, like, it doesn't make sense.

58:40

Right.

59:22

Like, every word becomes important. So there's just some different. Just different. Different kind of, like, goals in mind, and you need to be able to accommodate those things while still delivering something that's really, really good.

59:23

Yeah. I think two things that you said that I find kind of interesting, simple yet insightful at the same time, is this idea of, like, a director that you want to work with is well balanced in that they are passionate but not, like, desperate or thirsty. Right. Which is just hard because it's really easy to be like, I'm so excited about the job. Like, there's no one that's going to do this better than me. Please. I hope to hear from you tomorrow in a way where you start feeling like, now I feel, like, weird about working with this person. Yeah.

59:34

Yeah.

1:00:01

And the other balance is between confidence and. And gentleness, you know, like, can you be super confident without being a dick? And. And. And I think it's hard because it's. It's. I think, for us as like, a podcast to say, like, hey, you just. You just need to be cool and have a good vibe to get jobs, get work is, like, hard to act on. But. But kind of knowing because I was going to ask you this question. I'm like, well, what if. And it's kind of an obvious. An obvious question and a bad question. But, like, what if you're deciding between two directors and you like the vibe of both of them, you know, but, but it's. Everything is like, on that spectrum of confidence to like, like cockiness and, you know, and passion versus, like over, you know, overly eager to please, you know.

1:00:02

Yeah. You know, I think that, like, the more. The more that I get experience of being a creative director, you know, it's. It's really. I'm assessing what's on the line, you know, and like, what, what my priorities are. And, you know, sometimes you do maybe you pick the guys a little bit more of a dick. You pick the directors a little more of a dick if their book's better. If this is a big deal, you know, it's a big deal. Sometimes, sometimes you're working with particular talents and I need somebody who is going to be able to unlock that particular talent. Right. And then sometimes you're looking at somebody who's going to make something the most beautiful, whatever it is. Those things all come into it, you know. But if we've done our jobs right, I do. If, if I'm doing my job right and my production squads are my job right, I've got a couple people to choose from. And I know that we're all going to hit within. We're probably going to hit within, you know, 5 or 10% of each other on how good this thing is. And that really is within the margin of error for me. I'm fine. As long as I'm working with somebody who I'm going to be able. I'm going to be able to put in front of my client more. Go with somebody who is going to make set and entertaining or good time while still being like, I'm doing my job, I'm being busy, and it's somebody I want to work with again. My rules on set are always. My rules and set are always. Adherence to the script slightly exceed expectations. And let's leave here with the feeling that we would want to work together again.

1:00:47

You want them to slightly exceed expectations. You're not saying about yourself to the client.

1:02:16

Yeah, yeah, no, I'll just chill.

1:02:20

But that's what the hire is for. You are exceeding expectations by picking the right person. I think the insight that, like, I think we're glossing over a little bit and to your point of like, well, just be Chill the hard. And this is again, hard for directors to hear, but by the time you get three directors sent your way, the process of vetting has already weeded out people who don't have enough experience or whose reel doesn't match the creative closely enough. It's not like you're just like, oh, well, this person's fun. And like, they've got one and a half spots, but who cares? Everyone's already at that level and, and matches the brief and then you're picking from there. So it's like what's vibe is the cherry on top of three delicious sundaes, Right?

1:02:23

Yeah. I mean, like, I can't, you know, I, I, I, I'm responsible to my clients too. Like, I, I need to be able to show I'm picking this director because of X. Right. I can't just be like, hey, I'm hiring my buddy because he's cool. You know, those are personal things that I'm considering and like, it does maybe sound like a little, like, vapid or silly, but, like, I just think that, like, set can be a place full of egos and like, you, I really need, you know, I need people that are going to be able to control those things. You know, case in point, like when we were working on the DSP thing, Matt, like, there, there was that so and so somebody wasn't nailing their lines and you were fantastic with them, you know, or in working with, working with the comedian we worked with on that, you were great. Like, he thought you were fantastic. And those are all things that were considered when, like, we were working with, like, I'm going to need somebody. I, I don't have a lot of experience, like, talk, talking a direct talent down set. Direct? Yeah, directing.

1:03:13

Yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, yeah.

1:04:10

Those are all things that are, like, super important. I think temperament is like, one of the most important things in any, in any creative business.

1:04:12

Yeah.

1:04:18

Let me ask you about a hypothetical situation, which is because what you said about a client maybe gets one day on set a year, you know, and it's like a really big deal and they want to have fun. And we've talked on the podcast before about, like, there's some production companies that will bring you, like, Nobu for lunch, you know, and they'll give you the fun, people will give you gifts, they notice the wine that you like, you know, they're, they're giving you fun and more personal, like, services, customer service way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I find that, like, on a lot of, like, I always want everyone to have A good time on set. But sometimes the client wants us to shoot seven spots and the creatives want us to shoot 17 alts, you know, and the. Our plan from day one was we can shoot when the sun is above this mountain and below this, you know, thing. Like, and sometimes it's hard to be like, we're having an amazing time when we're like, finding time and when, like. I guess I'm curious. Sometimes as a director, I feel like part of my job is to say, hey, I've been on set hundreds and hundreds of days. I know that what you're asking us for, we can, we can get it, but it's not going to be at the level that is like a broadcast TV quality level. Like, where does the. Where do we give and where do we pull? And half the time they're like, okay, well let's figure out a solution. The other half they'll say, well, can you just shoot it? Like, you know, just do it, you know. Do you have any advice on that? That dilemma that I think every director has probably faced, if anybody figures it

1:04:19

out, I would love to know now. I think there's always going to be a little expectation of that. You know, I think that like, clients always want to get more. There's an economic thing between it about it, you know, there's an economic thing about it. Especially today with, with budgets being slashed and everything. Like, I expect probably that to be more of an issue going forward in the next few years. But I try, like, I always try to just like you want, try to set expectations before shoot, you know, you really want to make sure that your clients are listening on the ppms, you know, you try to push back, you know, and I, I try to remind my clients, it depends what kind of shoot it is. But like, I'm like, hey, the thing that we're, like, the thing that we're paying 90% of the money for is the 32nd that we're shooting. You know, let's make sure that's good. At the end of the day, you just have to be like, honest sometimes. And you have to have clients that are like, willing to like to slash things and if they can't get, if it can't get shot, I think that if I have any advice for director, hopefully they can lean on the creative director or the creatives on set, agency side, to help set the tone into facilitate those, like, discussions with client. Ultimately, sometimes you just have to like, fail. You just have to be like, I can't. We're done. It's Wrapping, you know, so would you

1:05:47

rather have, like, a director come to Video Village and say, hey, guys, look, we're at it. We can't get all five of these shots. I'm thinking we should probably do these three shots. It'll get us the story, and we'll just be. Instead of the dolly move, we'll just do this little slider and say that everyone cool. Or would you prefer that they pull you aside, the creative director, and kind of run that by you and then say, what do you think? And do you want to run that by the client? Like, is it better to do it to the group or to.

1:07:06

I think it's better. It's better to pull the creative director aside. And I. Well, I think it depends with each person. I prefer that I have a client who trusts me and we talk and we were. Go back and forth, and they're collaborative and they understand things like that. But, like, I want to be aware of situations. I would say, too, that if your main. The main credit that you're on set with isn't tracking that stuff, it's almost simultaneously they're not doing their job. You know, I think that, like, Matt and I have worked together. I'm pretty aware of what's going on with the schedule, you know, and, like, that's. That's part of my job is to. To make sure that we're doing that. So, you know, if those discussions are coming as, like, absolute shock to people, I would tell that director to take. Maybe do some reflecting and be like, who am I working with? I don't know if you could post that, but sure.

1:07:32

I mean, I think. I think that's all O. It's. The hard thing is, like, you know, sometimes we get people who are awesome, and sometimes we get people who are less awesome. And. Or, like, every director listening is like, well, I just want to work. Do you know what I mean? Like. Like, you know, the. The era of being choosy, I think, is. You know, I mean, it's. It would be different if, like, it was the 90s and neither of us had kids, but, like. Or we love. We're addicted to work is really what I'm saying. Like, I don't think. Think I could make $10 million in a year and I would still be like, should I turn that down?

1:08:26

I don't know. I mean, like, the. The best way to approach it is to have a solution like, all right, this dolly shop becomes static. You know, whatever it is. And then actually, we don't actually have to get this reverse shot. Like those kinds of things are. Those things are contingency contingencies. Honestly, I think that every, every director, every creative director should be thinking about and should probably be be discussing before set, you know? You know, like, I always have an idea of like what we can lose, at least from a narrative sense. So if we have to start cutting things, like, I know the least amount of words we need to say to make this, make this make sense.

1:08:59

Yeah.

1:09:40

You know, so like, yes, being solution, like being solution oriented, coming and being like, we can cut this and this and this and. But we still get this is 100% the best way to approach it and get ahead of it. It, you know, you never want to be an hour behind and. And we're starting to wrap and it. And it's like, sorry we couldn't get the last shot.

1:09:40

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1:10:02

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1:10:26

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1:10:32

Going back to what I said with Vibe, I guess it's like what I. What I don't want to work with is like a director who, who sees themselves as just this outside thing. Like, I think there is something really nice about building a relationship. We've worked together a couple times, Matt, where a director is actually interested in the context of why certain things are, you know, a director who, who knows, who can learn and like, wants to pay attention to the nuances of like, yeah, that is the funnier joke. And I can't. We can't actually make that joke, you know, and like, wants to know why and like learns why and is it's. And it doesn't treat it as shutting it down, treats it as like the reality we're working with, you know, those, Those. That's what. That's what, like, that's when you become part of, like my team. That's when you become part of like, you know, the world I'm working in and then like the partnership's better and then I am taking responsibility thing for things and I am able to anticipate like, you know, and you've seen it happen before Matt, where it's like they might go for that joke but it can be an alt we get, you know, and those are the compromises that we have to understand that like to them it's an alt. To us it's the edit that's going on our book, you know, and those are the ways that we win and like are able to communicate with each other.

1:10:55

Yeah, I know, I know. We're running out of time and you guys are going to take it back just a little step about something that Matt mentioned and you gave me a tiny bit of a segue by just mentioning what's going to go in your book or not book. So I think, right. What creatives call books, I think directors will tend to call our real or portfolio. Yeah, yeah, portfolio. You know, we've talked a lot about like once it's down to these few director, you're vibe checking, checking them, you're figuring out who you want to work with. Can we just take one step back to before the vibe check, before you get to know these people, you're seeing 20 reels. What's the, what's the thing that gets you excited about wanting to meet a director? And do you go to their website? Do you do any further research into them? Like to our listeners that want to maybe potentially get on your radar in the future or someone like you, what advice do you have?

1:12:11

There's, there's two things, I think that when it comes to making, making a decision, I, I will just say this. When it comes to portfolios, when it comes, when it comes to looking at portfolios and books and, and reels and whatnot, simplicity and clarity goes so far. I want to be able to look at something, hit play and understand immediately what the hell is going on. And that just helps decision making process. I can't, you know, I really, I don't have a lot of time in a day to look at 20 different books and make educated decisions. And when I look at something and it's complicated when if there's write ups associated with it and they're just like paragraphs long, I'm immediately kind of turned off. Like, you know, like, like good work. Good work should be easily explainable, you know, and simple. I think the other thing I look for is just, I always look, I mean like if there's something in Your book, that's truly on the other side of this. The other thing I look for is if something in your book. Book that is really weird or funny immediately turned on to that. Right. I want to see something that, like, you know, I don't have to do this so much anymore. But a lot of times when you make something really funny, it's like you kind of have to, like, trick some people into making it, and they. They're just like, oh, sure, they're going along with it, but you have something, like, really goofy or really outlandish or silly in your book. I want to get a sense of, like. That gives me a sense of who you are. You know, I need. I need something that. That makes me realize more than just, like, what you're making. I need to see personality. You know, my portfolio is a little bit different, and it's a little bit dated if you look at it now, but it's. You would. You would look at that and go, yeah, that's that person. I get it.

1:13:00

Yeah.

1:14:34

So you know that. That's. That's clarity. You know, that's. That's. It's. It's decisiveness. It's discernment.

1:14:35

Yeah.

1:14:41

Is there anything you touched on a little bit? Like you saying, clarity and simplicity? Is it. Is there anything else that turns you off from someone or you're like, we have better options.

1:14:42

Bad color grade.

1:14:51

That's what.

1:14:52

No, that's actually a really good answer.

1:14:53

That's the answer Orin wants to hear.

1:14:55

Yeah, well, my buddy Matt Lancaster, who used to work at Conscious Minds, told me he would be like, hey, I mentioned your name to the creatives. They Googled you, found your website, went to the bottom of your website, watched the worst thing you've ever directed, and said, no, this guy sucks. And I was like, like, okay, good point. What should I remove? And he's like, take the. This bottom half your website. Delete it forever. I was like, okay. And it worked.

1:14:58

Yeah. It changed your life.

1:15:20

I think most people probably have too. A little too much on their website. If. I mean, I've got. I've got, like, hours of. Of stuff that shut at this point probably, and I probably need to go through and do that, but something that turns me off.

1:15:21

What do you think about how, like, if someone has some comedy spots and some, like, cool sports, you know, Nike spot. Like. Like, if the tone is not clear, does that make a difference?

1:15:33

Yeah, I think that that's okay. I think that I do. I do. Like, I do. I'm aware that we Sometimes have to work with the opportunities that we're given and try to make the best of it. You know, I'm looking through again, I am looking for like, clear, like I understand the insight, it is apparent, you know, and that's not always on you. That's also part of the writing. But I am looking for like, I understand why they made this ad and who it's for, you know, and it's clarity. Range, I think is really, really good. If you're super lucky, you get to be really specific about the kind of work you make. I would say the majority of my work now is pretty humor related or pretty, pretty, you know, it's comedy, comedy centric. But I've been lucky for the last few years to work, work solely on couch pretty much like that. So that's not necessarily a prerequisite. And I think there's a lot of people that would disagree. A lot of people probably do look for range.

1:15:44

That's interesting.

1:16:41

Yeah.

1:16:42

One thing that you said that I find interesting is that you said, well, you know, maybe if the writing's not great, that might not necessarily be on you, you know, you're working with the writing. But. But we are the ones who choose what is on our website. Right. So is there a little bit of like, to me, like when I go to a cinematographer's website or even another director website, I'll usually watch like the first, the top two videos they have on there to judge whether they think it's good, what they think is their best spots.

1:16:42

Yeah, that's. That's a better answer than I give you. I, I think that's like what I always like look at the first two and then I scroll and hit a random one and just to see what I get is kind of like where I'm going.

1:17:08

So I think that like the gambler.

1:17:19

Yeah, and this is feedback for myself. But like the temptation to put a lot on your book I think is something you people probably need to resist a little bit or at least organizing their book in a way that is like, here are my six things that represent me. And then you can always find a way to have a different tab that's like more work. But those things, those things aren't untrue from a lot of stuff. When I'm hiring people and have to look at portfolios and resumes, if I get something that I'm like, I don't immediately get a sense of this person, I'm skipping. And that sounds cruel, but it's just like there's somebody else There that has a more discerning taste and is more organized and is making me get an easy yes. And that's what it's about. Easy yeses.

1:17:21

Yeah. It's so funny because I think the thing that keeps racing through my mind with all of this of like, oh, representing yourself and, and, you know, it's just that issue of we're only as good as the work we've already booked. Right. Like, I can't tell you how many times I've seen a board in the last month or two where I'm like, oh, I'm perfect for this. I love this. And I'll kind of start brainstorming spots that I have that would make me the easy yes. And then it dawns on me that even though I know that this is something in my wheelhouse, I've got one and a half spots that represent it. And like, if I could show them my web series from 10 years ago or the short film that I made, or, you know, there's other ways to represent myself that like, I know my rest would just be like, well, absolutely not. You're not. You can't send a short film unless it's literally a short film about. That's the exact same premise and executed

1:18:11

and as a 60 second short film.

1:19:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Totally. Yeah.

1:19:09

Yes.

1:19:11

Once you, once you've narrowed it down to a few directors, are you still looking at their book or are you just basically now it's all about the treatment, the discussion, the vibe.

1:19:12

Treatment's super important. I've put treatments in front of clients that I didn't believe in. And it's rough. It's rough. You know, from my perspective, I'm like, you know, they're saying, hey, we just bought a car. Show me the car. And I'm going, well, we're still repairing so of things, you know, and like, it's, it's asking people who are spending a lot of money to be like, oh, okay, you know, it's a tough. It's a tough position to be in. So, yeah, I do like, I do like, treatments do really, really matter. And I think that good treatments, again, give you an easy S. You know, get that good. Get a good designer. Get a good treatment designer.

1:19:21

Guys, you know, like, what's the perfect treatment?

1:19:58

It helps a lot. I think the, the perfect treatment is something that you got.

1:20:00

You heard that I said the perfect

1:20:07

treatment wants you to say 61 pages.

1:20:09

No, I thought, I thought, I thought you'd say 18 to 25.

1:20:13

Yeah, yeah, sure.

1:20:16

Yeah, I Think. I think. I mean, if I'm being honest, the best treatments. The best treatments I've read that were within, like, you know, were like, things that, like. Like, three directors deliver me something, and they're all competent, and they're all good POVs, and they're all additive. I've, you know, I've read a treatment or two where, like, the director, like, clearly was actually really, really excited about this. And whatever the topic was, whatever that insight is, they had their own perspective. They had their. Their own. Like, what this script is about actually happened to me two weeks ago, you know, or something like that. I think those things go a long way.

1:20:17

You know, jk, we say that every time, buddy. We say it every time.

1:20:53

I know, I know, but it did.

1:20:57

I do have eczema.

1:20:59

But it did. And you know what? I just did the same thing. I just lied to a client the other day about, oh, yeah, this just happened to me.

1:21:00

I mean, it's not a lie. It's just. We have to figure out how to.

1:21:09

An embellishment.

1:21:14

Yeah. It's the beginning of the process. It's just like, okay, well, how do I relate to this? Right. You know?

1:21:15

Right.

1:21:19

Well, you're showing them the version of yourself that you want them to believe is all of you.

1:21:20

I guess what I'm saying is that people do that, and sometimes I believe the person, sometimes I don't, you know, And I think that comes across. That comes across in the craft.

1:21:26

In it.

1:21:36

I think it comes across and, you know, the story you tell with it, like, the insight, like, if you're just like, this happened the other day, it was blah, blah, blah, blah. Or if it's related to something deeper and it feels like you're being a little. You're in a sentence or two, revealing a little thing about yourself. I'm into that. You know, I think it goes a long way. I think perfect treatment. Sorry.

1:21:37

Sorry. I was gonna say just. Just about the personal anecdote, because we were on it. I think it's our way of showing you. We under. We get it. We understand the thematic element that we're attaching to. And it's not about how true or how recent the experience was. Right. Like, we were talking off mic about a lottery spot that I did about a guy who delivers money every day. And I talked about in. In that treatment, I talked about being a paperboy. Right. That was a long time ago, back when newspapers were delivered.

1:21:58

Right.

1:22:32

But the insight was like, oh, I understand this character because I had to do it.

1:22:33

Right.

1:22:38

And so like it's, you know, if I had lied and pretended that I was a paperboy, that would have been transparent. But the, the point isn't true or false. The point is the insight and how I relate to the insight. And you could manufacture that. You can mine your personal experience a lot of different ways to get there is what I'm trying to say.

1:22:39

Yeah, I'm usually more like aggressive. So if I knew I was pitching against Matt on that commercial where a guy is walking up 10 flags flights of stairs, I'd say, look, I don't know about the other directors, but I live in a two story house. So every day I have to face these stairs.

1:22:57

You're being funny, Oren, but you would do, you would do that version of that.

1:23:11

And I would probably make a little video of me getting older as I go up and down the staircase.

1:23:15

But you would find out who I'm pitching against.

1:23:20

Matt lives in a one story house.

1:23:23

You know that I was in the one story house. That's true. Yeah, that's, that's the difference between you and me.

1:23:24

And I would be like, I mean, we've all had paper boy things when we were kids, but let's talk about today. I'm living it right now.

1:23:29

Yeah. Yeah. How pertinent is that? Right? Sorry, jk.

1:23:35

I would just say that, you know, I would be like, oh, I've walked. I walked. It's only one, one flight of stairs, but I walked it four or five times just to get in the right mindset, just, just to feel it. Just another fun.

1:23:38

Yeah, you'd shoot, shoot the video to do it. Yeah, There you go. That's funny.

1:23:48

I would say my standing desk in the stairway. Yeah.

1:23:52

I would say maybe this isn't that helpful, but maybe it's a little insight into like where my brain is at when I'm getting a treatment. Most of the times when I get it, when I'm getting a treatment from a director, it's not something that I've. Sometimes I've been working on for months, Right. And without a doubt, my brain is slipped into a part where it is, we gotta get this done. This is the thing on my to do list. And the best, the best treatments make me go, oh yeah, this is good. It. Oh yeah, wait, I like doing this, you know, and like, I know that's super vague, but like, you have to remember that you are making something for someone who may have been working on this thing for six months to get it sold. Or, or they did an entire pitch in three Days. And they've been up for. They've been up for, you know, three days. They haven't slept. They've been up for three days. So when you, when you are giving. When you are giving a creative director a treatment, you should. You should come with the idea that you're trying to reinvigorate them and get them excited about what they're about to make. Right?

1:23:56

That is a perfect bite. That's it. That's so good.

1:25:03

Yeah, I thought about it.

1:25:06

Yes. I can't wait to be tagged in this on Social.

1:25:08

Can't wait to be tagged in this. But I really think it is. That's. It's easy. Easy. Yes. Easy. Yes. I get excited and then it's a lot easier for me to be. Like, I go to my client, guys, you know, I'm my thing when I get. I say this no matter what, but, like, a treatment I really like. And I was like, guys, I'm so excited. Like, I thought this was gonna be good. And then I saw the treatment and I realized it's gonna be better than I thought, you know, like, that's how I, like, I like, open up with that kind of shit, you know? But I can't tell you how many times I've been really lucky the last few years, like the last year or two to like, get a treatment or two and be like, oh, yeah, dude, I do. I forget that I'm not just stressed about this. Like, forget that we're gonna make something cool and it's gonna be fun and all my friends are gonna see it on LinkedIn and be really jealous, you know?

1:25:12

I think also it's worth reminding directors that, like, yeah, you're pulling reference images and the deck has some visualizations, but, like, the first true visual representation of the spot, or at least of that director's vision, is that treatment. And it feels of a different sort of. You know, even if you're pulling kind of like some of the same imagery, ultimately, like, it's not like it has to be net new, but, like, it. It'll. It'll transform, basically, and come to life in a way that you haven't seen yet, you know?

1:25:54

Yeah, you guys got it hard because you. You guys are. I know what a write up looks like that's been done in 10 minutes, 5 seconds. And I know, I know what a write up looks like that you've found.

1:26:30

Three days.

1:26:42

Yeah, took us three days.

1:26:43

I know.

1:26:44

I know what those things look like because I, I do a certain iteration of them and I have written a Lot of things in two seconds. And I've written one or two things that I really, really cared about, you know, but like, you know, you guys are placating people who know and you're selling to people to know and you, you need to, you need to on the side of entertainment. I think that a lot of people forget we said it earlier. A lot of people forget that advertising is, is in a lot of ways a service industry, customer service. And like, yeah, the like stakes for lunch on set are ridiculous. But we did have that, we shot with Cardi B recently and our EP got like, got a, got a food truck that made everyone like grilled ribeyes. People loved it. That shit worked, you know, like, you know, so it, we are, we are in the service industry and you need to, you need to like have a certain flair about yourself and a certain kind of personality that is likable. You know, Those things take work too.

1:26:45

This is a perfect place to end the episode. But I'm gonna ask you a question. We can edit this out if we're going too long. This is just for me personally. Do you think it matters what order? Let's say it is a triple bed. You're getting three directors presenting a treatment to you.

1:27:48

Oren used to be an engineer and so he really wants, he wants the math of how to optimize.

1:28:02

To me it's like actors, you know, if you're the last actor before lunch, you, Orin is better be fast.

1:28:10

He's, he's pitch maxing right now.

1:28:16

Yeah. Cuz to me, if I'm, if I know I'm the last person pitching versus the first, if I know I'm the first person, I'm like, this is so cool. Like, did you guys ever notice that this thing is this and that? You know, I'm like really trying to like find the things. And if I'm the third person pitching, I'm like, well, I'm sure you guys have already thought of this and this and this. But like I had this other idea, you know, like, like I'm really trying to anticipate what the people before me have said and I, and the worst is when you are pitching something and you're trying to act like you're so creative and original and unique and you're coming on the heels of someone else that doesn't.

1:28:18

Someone else's.

1:28:48

The same obvious idea, you know?

1:28:49

Yeah. With the same reference image, you know. Slide two. Yeah.

1:28:51

You know what? I, I, it's so funny you asked this because you guys aren't alone in that, like, I just spent earlier today, I had a pitch and I spent like 15 minutes being like, like, okay, idea one, idea two. Oh, no, I'm gonna put idea two one in doing all of that and doing all those mental gymnastics. I think those things are important because it shows you care. And I'm always trying to do safe idea, insane idea, best idea. I never want to leave. I never. There might be people that want to. I have put my worst idea last and people buy it gotten done. And people have been like, okay, let's go back up to the first idea. I guess, you know, like, like, I want to leave. People, I want to leave. I want the last thing I show to leave an impression that's positive. That's, that's always my, my opinion on that when it comes to order. Yeah. I think that people say they lead. I, I, I always lead with like, like my safer idea. Because what I want to do immediately is make everyone go. At the very least, we can make that. You know, I, again, here's like the

1:28:55

parachute and here's the, the rocket jetpack.

1:29:59

Yeah. Sometimes we'll say mild to wild. Right?

1:30:03

Mild to wild.

1:30:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:30:07

But Matt's salsa company.

1:30:09

Yeah, I'm a little, I'm a little different, though. You know, I make, I'm a little different. I like putting the most wildest in the middle because I, I also like going different. Yeah, right. That's what they pay me for. I just like going. It's. There's also something fun. Again, this is for each different client. I kind of like going from like, this is what you asked for. This is what makes sense executed well. Like, I, I, I turn at the, to pitch anything that I wouldn't want to make sure, but execute it well. And then, and then I'm always like. And of course, guys, we had to show you something crazy. You know, you go into that and then you bring them back down to earth with like, you know, maybe like, you, the last idea is usually like the idea that's probably like second place for me. But is the idea we should probably make, you know, but when it comes to looking at books. No, not, not normally. There's probably, I mean, like, if you guys were like, to pull data from my brain, like, maybe I'd choose the first director first more often than not. But no, it maybe matters more. Like when I'm looking at like 10 different people, 15 different people, and I'm getting a little like, what am I looking at anymore? But when I get to Three. You know, that's. That's a. That's a pretty, like, important decision. And, like, I'm. I'm pretty locked in, and I'm not,

1:30:11

like, you know, easily swayed.

1:31:20

Yeah.

1:31:22

And I'm also, like, I said, cancel my pheromone cologne.

1:31:22

Yeah, yeah. Don't put more pictures. Put a bunch of pictures of yourself on. On your reel. That's what you.

1:31:26

Yeah, there you go. There you go.

1:31:32

But, you know, I'm not alone in those decisions, too. Like, you know, I don't know if it's. If this isn't any insight, but, like, I asked. I'm asking my team what. What they think. You know, I asked. I asked my producers what they think. I asked my strategist what they think. You know, like, I want.

1:31:34

Producer says, oh, we like this person. They're fast.

1:31:49

They're fast.

1:31:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

1:31:53

Yeah, I think. Yeah. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I want. I want to see what other people think. You know, for the most part, unless there's like a really, like, I'm like, we're making this. This person has this. We're doing that, you know, but most of the time, I'm asking a couple other people what they think. So there's. There's more than just, like, what my opinion is when it comes to this decision making.

1:31:54

Cool.

1:32:15

Yeah.

1:32:15

Well, awesome. Well, if people want to follow the decisions you're making, what's the best way. I know you're on LinkedIn. J.K. lyons. Are you on Instagram? Anywhere we can see your. Your book?

1:32:16

I. I am on Instagram. You can. I've never done this before. Hold on. I don't know what my handle is, but I am really loud and obnoxious on Instagram, so it'll be a good time. My. My name on Instagram is JK Baby Parm Lions.

1:32:25

But that's not jk. J, O, N. There you go.

1:32:40

There we go.

1:32:45

Cool.

1:32:47

Portfolio is touch grass.

1:32:47

Keyboards.

1:32:49

Yeah, there you go. There we go.

1:32:50

Yeah, it's messy. It's a little childish right now. I need to.

1:32:52

I like the red box spot. I think I've seen this before. Thumbs up, toes up.

1:32:55

Oh, it's. Yeah, toes up. That's a goofy spot. That's from years ago.

1:32:59

Years ago.

1:33:03

It's funny. Yeah.

1:33:04

I don't even know if red box is still around.

1:33:05

I think they're. I don't know. I was going to say Something that's probably 10 years too old.

1:33:08

They're now called letterboxd.

1:33:12

Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, jk, do you have a minute more to endorse with us?

1:33:14

Yeah, I've got. I've got all the time in the world.

1:33:18

Love it. Unpaid endorsements. I've got two LA specific endorsements to just keep going on a streak. I've been only doing LA endorsements. I don't like doing that because it's a show, it's international. So apologies to everyone who doesn't live in la. But first off, it's early April right now, and the Academy Museum and Theater is launching Akira Kurosawa retrospective. A lot of those prints are on 35. It's all of the big hits and some of the ones you probably haven't seen. And the Academy theater is easily the nicest theater for the cheapest ticket. I think if you don't have. If you're not like a member or anything like that, an adult ticket for a 35 millimeter retrospective print is $10. Is your movie ticket. That's obscene. And it is in the top 1% of best movie theaters in the world.

1:33:21

And they're paying you the $10 to watch this movie, Bro.

1:34:12

Check yourself. I know I'm on a Kurosawa Jag, but. But I don't know the last time you checked out a Kurosawa movie. They're so much more fun than you think they're gonna be. They seem like, you know, like they're ancient. Ancient and like. And homework. But they are so entertaining. They rip so hard. They're. Yes, sometimes they're in black and white, but like otherwise ageless. Perfect. As good as it gets. So, yeah, I'm excited.

1:34:15

I'm gonna get it. I'm only ripping on it just cause the Timothee Chalamet Ballet opera moment. I thought maybe this would help raise my profile.

1:34:44

You raise your profile? Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Oren, call me after you watch High and Low and you'll be like, oh, I'm sorry I made those jokes. It's so fucking good. Anyway, there's that and then an especially unhinged one. Let me ask you guys, as two non valley folk, are you familiar with a place called the Joint on Ventura Boulevard?

1:34:50

Is it a sandwich shop?

1:35:09

No, I do know that place. I don't know if I've ever been. I have it saved in my Google Maps to go.

1:35:10

The joint is. No, it's not that. E. It is a coffee shop that like, I think during the pandemic got a ton of space. And I maybe even endorsed this on the show years ago. I'm not sure, but it's a coffee shop. It's regular coffee shop. But they were so big. They were like, dang, we need help with our rent. And so they subleased to a large fish shop. Like, if you need a cut of trout and yeah, you, you and an espresso. And I'm talking like, like tons, like freezers with like a whole fish hanging right there, right next to you. You walk into the coffee shop, it smells of fish. Like, if you, if you are trying to like, cook a banquet, the joint is where you go. And it is so unhinged and strange. And I drove by it today and I was like, I need to endorse the joint.

1:35:17

That's cool. And does Spike Lee on this place.

1:36:10

I wish, I wish then I would go there all the time. So those are my two spots. Jk, what you got, buddy?

1:36:12

I've got to endorse one of my favorite restaurants also la. So sorry all the international fans. You can't. You won't be able to go. It's a place called Lucita over in Chinatown. It's a like, Filipino, like, it's like a Filipino, like, rotisserie place. Fantastic.

1:36:17

L a s I t a lacita.

1:36:36

L a S I t a day. It's really, really good. One of my favorite places. Great wine program.

1:36:39

I. I have a friend who tried to get us to go to brunch there.

1:36:46

Any vegetarian stuff? Oh, well, there's a branzino there.

1:36:50

There's. There's fish and vegetarian right now. They've got a great, like, I don't, like, I don't know how you feel about, like, coconut. They've got a coconut, like broth, like squash thing right now. That's delicious. It's really, really, really good. But I mean, like, there's a. There's. There might be better food in the world, but every, every single time I go to this place, I just have like a really good time. I don't know what it is. It's become. Me and my girlfriend go all the time. Like, we've just been going enough that like this. The psalm there recognizes us and like, send us free stuff and like, and

1:36:53

then do they wear the medallion? Do you know, like, old school soms will wear the medallion.

1:37:25

He's the coolest guy and he's the. I. I almost hesitated to say song mom just because I'm gonna get eye rolls.

1:37:31

Sure.

1:37:37

Coolest guy in the coolest guy in the world. Just like a chill dude always picks you the right white bottle of wine, you Know, I went there with. With my buddy a couple. A couple weeks ago, and like, I ended up sitting there. The people next to us are talking to us. Turned out to be like, just some rich people who, like, we're like, get these like a bottle of wine.

1:37:38

Brunei.

1:37:56

And then. I know. And then Danny DeVito was there the last time I was there.

1:37:57

Hey.

1:38:00

Sat right by.

1:38:01

That's excellent.

1:38:02

That's.

1:38:03

That's cool.

1:38:03

And that's a great guy to see out. He looks happy as can be. Yeah.

1:38:04

Yeah.

1:38:08

Do you know he's a twin?

1:38:08

Is he?

1:38:09

Yeah. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

1:38:10

Oh, yeah. They look exactly alike.

1:38:11

Yeah.

1:38:13

One of them got the good. The good. The Sydney Sweeney jeans. Do you.

1:38:14

Do you remember in that movie, like, there's a beat where Danny DeVito's like, Dang, we're twins. He's got all the good genes. I like, like.

1:38:17

Yeah, that's the whole premise.

1:38:26

That's the whole premise. But, like, there's a beat where he's like, like, dang, he's the good one.

1:38:27

Yes.

1:38:31

And Arnold's like Danny DeVito. It's okay.

1:38:32

Nowadays they don't twins.

1:38:34

Right.

1:38:36

But nowadays you'd be like, there's positive things about both of them.

1:38:36

Yeah. Yeah.

1:38:40

On that note, I really want to endure. I also want to endorse the movie True Lies. That's my favorite. That's my favorite Arnold Schwarzenegger movie.

1:38:41

James Cameron.

1:38:48

Yeah, James Cameron. Jimmy Lee Curtis.

1:38:49

Incredible.

1:38:52

Fantastic.

1:38:53

There's awesome behind the scenes on, like, how they pull off some of those stunts and they're crazy. Like, there's so much stuff that's practically done. Like, this is before compositing is totally mainstream. There's some stuff there where, like. Like the bridge sequence in particular, where they're just like a stunt person is just dangling from a helicopter while another helicopter is flying right next to it to get the shot. Yeah. And they blow a truck up right next to them. Like, stuff that's in that. Yeah.

1:38:54

That movie is like, all jokes aside, that movie is so fun.

1:39:23

Fun.

1:39:26

Like.

1:39:27

Oh, yeah. What?

1:39:27

What, what? 90s action. I love. I'm. I love Lethal Weapon. Love the Lethal Weapons. True Lies is better. True Lies is good. Action. It's really funny.

1:39:28

Yeah.

1:39:39

And the title's an odd. I mean, come on.

1:39:40

Yeah, they were True Lies.

1:39:42

Yeah, come on. The tension in that.

1:39:44

All weapons.

1:39:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Captain, what you got, buddy?

1:39:48

Well, so I have. I used Claude in a new way today. So that's my slightly interesting. I'm doing this new job we're casting 24 OCPs, 24 on camera people. Some of. There's probably between the 24 of them, they probably have 10 lines of dialogue, which means that a lot of these 24 actors are just doing a kid doing a thing, a grandpa falling asleep in a chair, you know, things like that. And so, and we're casting not in LA or casting in Austin, Austin, which is great, great city, but doesn't have the same pool we have in la. And the producer emailed me and she's like, hey, can you. What do you want these people to do on camera? You know, a lot of them don't have any dialogue. And I was like, I don't know, can't the casting director like write up a creative brief? That's usually the casting director I work with does it like, well, it's a lot of roles, they're all doing different things. And I was like, okay, okay, I guess I'll write some. I'll come up with 24 different things for these people to do. Like, hey, you act like you like football and then do this and then score a touchdown and then, then do, then cheer, but give us one without dialogue. So I was like, hey, Claude. And we're shooting six spots, 24 parts. I was like, hey, Claude, here's all the scripts. Here's like. And it had the, the script had briefs for locations for casting for all this stuff. And I was like, help give me 24 breakdowns of things that people should do on camera, like to. So that I can decide whether they're going to be a good enough grandpa that falls asleep in a. You know, and it took a few tries in the beginning. It just like decided to not include any of the dialogue that was there. And I was like, cloud, what is wrong with you? Like, I need them to see them do the dialogue.

1:39:51

You're right, that's on me.

1:41:27

It said, well, some of it didn't seem natural, to be honest. Like, I don't care your opinion on the dialogue. I just need you to come up with 24 different things. So it did. And it made, it made a word doc, which I turned into a Google Doc. And I shared it with casting and then I just went. I basically re edited every single prompt, but. And a lot, you know, it does a lot of that AI stuff. It's like you're frustrated but not frazzled. And I'm like, I don't need that. Just, just, yeah, just be like you're, you know, you're trying to finish up dinner while your kid's talking to you and riff on that, you know, But I found it something that it, the producer's like, just see if you can get it to me by Monday. And I was like, when am I gonna have four hours to do this? And Claude gave me the, the bones. And now I think in like probably 30 minutes, I'll well be able to get it to a place that is usable.

1:41:29

Have I told you? I, I will do that, but I'll, I'll turn the microphone on and then just kind of ramble. I'll be like, hey, I need you to like, I'm gonna ramble for a little bit. And then I want you to turn that into a concise couple bullet points. Here's my situation. No, and then it gets.

1:42:12

Yeah, you do that with, with which tool? Yeah, because Whisper Flow I think is designed to do that. But I mean, yeah, it's interesting. Works with cloud. I'll try it out. If you guys have any feedback for us, please keep the I was wrong from Matt as an audio clip and please just add it randomly into this episode every five to ten minutes. But if you want to tell us your thoughts on anything we've spoken about, please email us@justtootapodmail.com or you can DM ustrutapod on Instagram. I'm Kaplan.

1:42:27

I'm Rmatt Enlow. Across all social media, especially letterboxd and Instagram as well. This episode was edited by Kevin Oyeank. Thanks, Kevin. Social media by Lily Bouvier. Thanks, Lily. Produced by Tyler Small. Thanks, Tyler. And you're listening to music provided by the FMUSIC Archive and the artist Jazzar.

1:42:55

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