Dr. Tyler Panzner: Hidden Trade-Offs of Longevity Supplements and the Advantage of Topical Delivery

Here's something nobody selling you a longevity supplement wants to say out loud. The same molecule that leaves your friend calm and sharp can leave you wired, agitated and wide awake at 3 in the morning. Same dose, same bottle, different genetics. Welcome to Biohacking Beauty, the podcast where we decode the real science of aging well, from your hormones to your mitochondria to the way your skin shows it all. I'm your host, Amita Eshel, co founder of Young Goose. And my wife and co founder, Anastasia Hojaeva is usually in this chair next to me. She's under the weather today and resting up. So it is just me carrying the science so solo for this episode. She will be back beside me next week. And today we are getting into the hidden trade offs of longevity supplements and why roughly a quarter to a third of all of us are running a different internal chemistry than the marketing ever assumes. My guest today is the incredible Dr. Tyler Panzner, a PhD pharmacologist who works right at the intersection of genetics, pharmacology and personalized supplementation. His research spans neuropharmacology and breast cancer metastasis, and he has by now worked one on one with more than 900 people, most of them the highly sensitive kind whose nervous systems react to compounds the rest of the world calls gentlemen. We get into why curcumin, resveratrol and green tea extract can quietly backfire for people with slow MAOA or COMT variants. How stress and anxiety are not the same signal even though your body files them in the same drawer. And why the way you deliver a molecule swallowed versus applied to the skin topically can decide whether it ever reaches the tissue you were aiming for in the first place. The last part obviously sits close to home for us at Yangoos, and Tyler and I get into it honestly. So let's get into it.

0:05

Okay. Finally. Finally, Tyler, finally you're on the podcast. A year and a half after we met. I think.

2:32

I know. I think we're coming up on, I think around a year or so, right? Yeah, definitely. Time flies, right? But hey, let's make it happen. I'm really excited to shift some perspectives, you know, and add some knowledge.

2:42

One good thing that Brian Johnson did is get us together. So. But, you know, I had all these questions prepared and then, you know, off air you told me that you're launching a new module or a new program for. Okay, I'll let you. I'm not gonna butcher it, so. So I have a. A whole new slew of questions, but maybe start by Telling me what you're launching?

2:58

Yeah. So I guess let's take it from the top. Just you know my background, so my background's in pharmacology. PhD scientist. I did work on a lot of neuropharmacology. So anxiety, depression, multiple sclerosis research as well as my thesis work was on breast cancer. Breast cancer metastasis, which evolved a lot of extracellular matrix work. So even though I'm not, you know, in the cosmetic space. Right. We all know that, that ecm, right. Whether it's cancer, it's all the same.

3:22

Not only that, you're right. I don't know if you know, but Anastasia was about liver fibrosis. So you're I think one step closer to skincare than she was in the beginning. So.

3:54

So yeah. And really got interested in genetics. Always really loved supplements. Making my own pre workout powders, selling that in sketchy little bags and collagen stuff. Right. Just how you can just change how you feel with these natural things. So I've always been really natural first and I was on the track to be an immunotherapy scientist. So you know, genetically modifying mice, extracting the tumors, doing those types of things. And I did a lot of focus on MMPs, matrix metalloproteinases, how they're chewing through the ECM, how cancer cells do that differently. But I got my 23andMe done. This was many, probably seven, eight years ago. And I've always struggle with a lot of overthinking. Really sensitive person. I could get very excited. I could also get very stressed and overwhelmed with things. Was able to avoid going on anxiety medications by looking at my genetics and some targeted supplementation around my genetic weak points. So long story short, did that for friends and family. Got on social media, didn't really know where that was going to go. As I was working at a genetics company, more cancer based things and started working with people one on one building hyper personalized supplement diet lifestyle protocols and that really, you know, took off doing it my way. You know, really merging the nuanced supplement pharmacology which we'll touch on and that's, that's the biggest missing piece if you ask me. Not just in genetics but in the online, you know, holistic health space because I love supplements but Wild west, right. There's not a lot of real education or regulation. So yeah, work with people one on one now and just really like giving totally unbiased supplement information. We could dive into some here and you know I have no horse in any race you know, I don't own my own supplement company, not yet at least. And it's like these molecules, they're not good or bad, they just do things in the body. And what's good for my body for that supplement may be not good for your body. So teaching people how to make the right decisions for themselves, I think, you

4:04

know, the problem, first of all, longevity conversation as a whole and more so biohacking is really male driven. It's not about even, you know, even our conversations around like skin health, they might be predominantly purchased by women or they acted upon by women, right? But whether it is like the heads of those companies for that matter, or even what is getting focused on is very male oriented. And it always goes, almost goes to baseline where there is, there is a, you know, breakthrough for, for lack of a better word, where, where people are starting to notice that women should be part of the conversation. And then it goes back to the, to the kind of male oriented focus. And the reason, I think one of the, one of the characteristics of that is that there is less conversation around trade off and more about solution where, you know, obviously the, the common adage is that, you know, you don't have drugs, don't have side effects, they just have effects, right? They just have the effects. Some of the effects are the ones that you want, some other ones are the ones that you don't want. But really anything, any solution that we have to, to health is really, that is a, is a trade off of one versus the other. You know, talking about skincare, you know, the, the, the paradigm for the last 30 years of clinical result oriented skin care was hey, just ramp, just press the pedal to the metal as far as like cellular turnover. But you're getting people who have been doing it for 10, 20, 30 years having other issues. You talked about MMPs that chew up the skin or the skin's inability to create the correct proteins, hyaluronic acid, et cetera, where the skins become thinner, bruised more easily, et cetera, more rigid, et cetera. So there's always trade off. And I believe that's a nuance that the entire industry just isn't aware of until the end of one experiment that they are, is aware of it.

6:18

Right? Absolutely. And you're absolutely right. Every, you know, supplements are just like, to me, well, let me put it this way. A drug by definition is anything that alters physiology. So with that definition, that magnesium supplement you took to calm you down, that's a drug, that young goose product you put on your skin and improve Your skin, that's a drug. Like, the way I look at the. Of course, you know, you can't compare magnesium to like an Ambien. Right. Like, there's different levels to it. Right. But at that fundamental level, I view all. Even to me, I even view food as a drug because these are all things that alter our physiology. So it's about understanding every supplement or drug does multiple things. Like you mentioned, multiple. Yeah, mechanisms, you know, so that's why something may be good for me, but not good for you. And again, it's, you know, on the bottles for these things, you read the benefits. It's marketing. Right. Business is business. Right. But it's like you're not going to read about, you know. An example I like to give is curcumin. Right. Curcumin is so well studied. There's data for helping with skin, whether it's topical, oral. But what else does curcumin do? Curcumin is also an iron and copper chelator. So if you're low on those, it can make you a lot worse. It also, and this can kind of tie into the program I was telling you about, the. One of the enzymes in the brain that breaks down neurotransmitters, it's called MAO A that gets blocked by curcumin. So in studies you'll read, oh, it helps with depression because it's raising your neurotransmitters.

8:37

Almost like, like, almost like an SSRI would, would be like.

10:22

Yeah, well, exactly. So the ssri, that's. Once you release the serotonin, it prevents it from being sucked back into the brain cells. This. It'll let it get sucked back in, but it won't be broken down as well. But it also affects adrenaline, noradrenaline and dopamine. So that's why they feel different. But if you're someone that's sensitive, more of an overthinker, like myself, I. My brain can rev up. I will feel like my heart will start to increase. I'll be more sensitive, more reactive. And if people have genetic issues in that same protein. So I already don't break down these molecules, these neurotransmitters as well. So that could be linked to things like overthinking, anxiety, aggression in some people. So someone will take a curcumin supplement whether they think it's for their skin or their. You know what it's marketed for, right? The skin, the joints. And they're more anxious, they're not sleeping as well, they have a shorter fuse with Their wife or husband. And that's not me saying that. Oh, my God. This is. I mean, I could go much more viral if I was like, this is ruining everyone's right? But, like, we need to be pure

10:26

encapsulation lying to you when they sell you the curcumin brain product.

11:39

I mean, hey, that'll make my business a lot easier. But I. I couldn't. Right? Leave a signs first. Always. But what's crazy too, is what other supplements do that. Well, resveratrol does that very well. EGCG does that very well. Those three, right. There are three of the most well studied polyphenols with regards to skin health. You know, so of course it's different if you're doing a liposomal topical. Right. Versus oral. Oral will do that a lot more to the brain. But that's just an example there. You know that if someone has lower mood and they don't have low iron or copper and they have some inflammation, I'll recommend curcumin. And it may be perfect. So it's not just maybe not for me specifically. Right. So, you know, Mo, after working with over 900 people with these protocols, I realized one of the biggest demographics that I help people with are highly sensitive people like myself. So all these. We'll call them microstimulators. Right, that I just mentioned. Right. There's dozens and dozens and dozens of them. So imagine like you're taking curcumin for your joint health. You're taking resveratrol for your mitochondria, you're taking quercetin for your allergies. Until I am a. I've done that before. I knew what I knew. And I feel. I call the monkey on your back. Feeling like you just. I'm not panicking per se, but I just feel like I had a little too much coffee. But I didn't have any coffee. It's just that background. I can't. I'm trying to relax with my wife at the end of the day, and like, I just can't. We're trying to watch t. I can't even, like, connect to the TV show because there's adrenaline. Right?

11:45

So you're watching Dumpster and you're like, that's nothing. He probably has too much. He's low on iron.

13:22

That's.

13:28

That's what's going on there.

13:28

Oh, yeah, we got them all bumped out. Right? So it's like, you know, after doing this and trying to. This program, it's called the overstimulated brain reset and it's essentially a program built for highly sensitive people by me, a highly sensitive scientist. And what's really fascinating is I pretty much summarize this as there's four different gas pedals of the brain. We just covered the first one, which is adrenaline. Some people may have heard of histamine or glutamate or sulfur. These are other neurotransmitter systems in the brain that excite the brain. So there are countless supplements and foods out there that quietly stimulate these. So and the catch of this is no one's talking about it because where is the randomized control trial where there's only highly sensitive people? Because for, if you're not highly sensitive, you're not going to notice that. So essentially trying to teach people at scale and I mean, I believe anyone whether you're highly sensitive, neurodivergent, adhd, ocd, if you work with people like that, this is something if you're utilizing supplements and nutrition, you need to understand. This is going to sound crazy, but I've literally had people, you know, get off of their anxiety medications by having less garlic onions because they're really sensitive to the sulfur. Now again, I'm not going to go around saying it's the cure all for everyone's. The question is, which one of your gas pedals are more sensitive? Are you more of a sulfur sensitivity? Glutamate is a lot more ocd, looping, repetitive thought patterns. Histamine is more of a wired but tired feeling. You're not necessarily anxious, you just feel wired. Adrenaline is a lot more of what if that bad thing is going to happen? Inner tension, My hands are shaking. So not an adrenaline tool. Won't work if you have a supplement that raises glutamate. Glutamine is an example of that. So if I have glutamine, my mind will start to loop a bit more. I'll get a little bit of headaches. So I've seen people that are sensitive to that, that's linked to ocd. So if someone with OCD has genetics where they're very sensitive to glutamate, they're taking a glutamine supplement for their gut health and they don't realize that it's making their mental health worse. Right. So to be clear, I'm not saying that you remove the glutamine, they're 100% cured. Right? Not, you know, this is, this is all about improving symptoms. But yeah, something I'm really, really excited about. You know, it's pharmacology, it's genetic personalized health and psychology together with mental tools as well. Just really, it's essentially the what I wish I had throughout my whole life because I spent 33 years being highly sensitive and not knowing why certain days were so much worse than others.

13:30

You know what's interesting is that it's less sexy. Again as you said, you know in the beginning, it's less sexy than being sensational or even like giving specific supplement advice.

16:22

It's a.

16:32

More obviously it's a more of a, of a framework thing.

16:33

Well, exactly. I word it not as a anxiety program. I frame it as a nervous system literacy program for you to learn each system and learn because this is what I've done with people one on one where we look at their genetics, right? That could give a lot of clues what you're sensitive to. And I look and say, hey, you're, you're really sensitive to glutamate. Let's say I want you to look at your day. Do you have l glutamine supplements? Do you have a lot of bone broth that's very high in glutamate? Maybe you have msg, monosodium glutamate. Now a lot of people will say MSG doesn't matter. Well, it matters if you are genetically sensitive. But guess what? When they run the studies, they don't check for that. They put every random people in there. So on average they say you need a lot mega doses in order to notice anything. Yeah, right. So high glutamate is linked to epileptic seizures. I've had clients where we connected their seizures to when they had Chinese food that was high in msg. So you see the patterns here, right? It's like in certain, it's all about figuring out which flavor or cognitive flavor of anxiety and overthinking do you have first off, stop pressing on the gas pedal, right? Then you want to add things in. Like an L theanine supplement will work for glutamate. It's not going to do much for histamine if that's your problem. This is why people are. I mean the TikTok shop nowadays it's take this for your anxiety. Anxiety is vague, right? Or even for skin health. Skin health is vague. Do you want to work on the bioenergetics of it? Do you want to work on the inflammatory side? Is it a gut related thing? But it's very hard to get that across and you know a 90 second

16:38

reel and you know what I, what I was getting to before is that for skin health it is a very, it's a very not sexy conversation to have. It's like, you know, after sleep your mental health is probably the biggest driver of skin health, especially by the way. Not especially, but even within the confines of just skin slow aging, like how fast you age is mainly driven obviously by sleep and way, way before what you're putting on your skin. It is your ability to, if you want to call it like clear out catecholamines or however you want to call that like the ability to experience a restful state. And my question is like who should be literate? Is it exactly like being. Or not exactly. But is it akin to being right or left handed where everyone is going to have a divergence to some type of sensitivity or, or you could define people as nonsense or obviously like is it a spectrum?

18:27

Yeah, yeah, great question. Yeah, it's absolutely a spectrum. And you know those catecholamines, right? Like yeah, I love where you be more specific. Right. So the dopamine, noradrenaline, adrenaline, you know, everyone has genetic factors linked to pretty much everything, meaning you, me, everyone listening has one genetic variant linked to higher estrogen and one link to lower estrogen and one link to higher. It's all about. We have millions of them. Right. So that's why you know, with a lot of these genetic tests now it's like you can't just look at 20 variants, right. You need to look at the overall

19:33

effect guests on Joe Rogan that talk about five, five variants.

20:12

Oh yeah, the, the, oh yeah, the five, the five methylation variants, right. That's going to change everything even though everyone ends up getting the same vitamin.

20:18

Yeah.

20:25

Won't name names but you know, the catecholamines, right. A lot of that comes down to either that MAO gene I mentioned earlier or the C O M T gene. Well guess what, both of mine are slow. So those supplements that I mentioned, right. They target that and you know it's if someone is really prone to the overthinking being very type A. Right. I believe that most people can find water, multiple of these systems, right. That they can be sensitive to of course your belief system, your trauma. Right. All these stuff play a role as well. Right. So like as much as I'm saying this is a totally new lens, it's not all that matters of course. Right. But I do think that you're absolutely right. How well you clear these things affect your nervous system state. I mean when you're stressed out, how well are you even absorbing the supplements you take through your Gut, Right. We know that that affects stomach acid secretion or all these different factors even.

20:25

I mean like it's.

21:27

Yeah, exactly. You're going to divert it to your muscles, right, for the fight or flight. So, you know, it's, it's just, it's like this almost hidden, this invisible world of supplement interactions and stimulators that again, it's. For most people, maybe not most people, for a lot of people, they may not be. So you're. If you're not super sensitive to adrenaline, then you may not really be noticing these things, right? So it's. Would every single person have some sort of sensitivity? I think, I don't think every single person does. Some people are very, very type B, right? They take whatever supplement, they don't really feel much, you know. But again, most of the people that come to work with me, I, after working with countless functional medicine naturopaths, this, that for these supplements they can't tolerate things and they're so curious about their health. Well, what makes you really curious about your health? It's usually higher dopamine levels and back to the catecholamines. So it's pretty interesting too people that, they've done studies on this, people that break down catecholamine slower, they're more likely to be in the creative hearts. But if you break them down faster, you're more likely to be in things like mma, right? Because you could handle, you could handle that pressure, right? So it's like, I mean, think about like LeBron James hitting a buzzer beater in game seven, right? Like, I don't know his genetics, not a client of mine, right. But it's like, I wonder if it just makes sense to me that he probably has the more normal breakdown. So when it's game time, if I was in the game, I would be like all shaking and worried I'm going to mess something up. But you can't be like that, right? To be an elite champion like that, right? So that's where it all comes. It just fascinates me. Genetics, behavior. You think about like the sensitive artists, right? A lot. It's kind of known. A lot of artists could be like, you know, very sensitive or have mood related issues. And the way I view it is really good artists, whether it's visual, musical, whatever it is, they essentially can alchemize their own feelings and pain and sorrows into art that helps the rest of the world, you know, feel and connect to themselves. And so they're wearing their nervous system, it's like their Skin, their nervous system, skin is that much thinner. They feel things so much more deeply. And again, these are the exact types of people that I really encourage to put information about the webinar I'll be having. Just come and at least check it out. And the content I make, you know, around this.

21:28

First of all, it's, it's very, it's very interesting. I'm racking my brain. It's a, it's a, it's, it's a podcast I listened to recent, recently and the person said, it's not that I'm not afraid. I don't mind being afraid. Like, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a deterrent. Oh, it's actually, it's actually. What's the Mission Impossible guy? The Scientologist Tom Cruise.

24:02

Oh, not the actor.

24:26

Tom Cruise.

24:29

Tom Cruise, yeah.

24:29

So Tom Cruise, yeah.

24:30

Oh, he's Scientologist. I don't know.

24:32

He's like the symbol of Scientology.

24:33

Oh, is he? I don't know. I'm not, yeah, I'm not into that. So, yeah, I wouldn't know.

24:36

But yeah, when you live in Florida, you know. Anyway, so Tom Cruise, they interviewed him, you know, about many things like why does he make the decisions he makes about, like, doing all the stunts, etc. He, and he said basically, like, it's not that I'm not afraid. I just don't mind being afraid. It's not a big deterrent for me. So we would assume that this person has a very fast clearance of Catholic colonies, right?

24:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would think so. You know, of course, it also comes down to, like, the nurture aspect of being upbringing as well. Right. Like, I, you know, really fascinated too, with just even parenting styles. Right. Like, I, I, I, I see some content where it's like, you know, what you shouldn't, shouldn't do? Like when your kid knocks over a glass of water or something, if you, the parent goes, oh, oh my God. Like, you know, if, if you are, you know, making a big deal out of that, Right. Like, that's going to be signaling to the child that, you know, like, it's not okay to do that. Right. Meanwhile, there's a way you can do it where you could say, oh, that's okay, we'll clean, you know, and like, not instill that fearful component.

25:10

Right.

25:53

But yeah, I mean, at first glance, it does sound like that because, you know, I, you know, all entrepreneurs have that fear, right? And it's like, it's, it's being able to push through it. But it's, you can have an external thing in life that's maybe a 3 out of 10 stressor. But if you, if you don't clear catecholamines as well, you actually feel that like an eight or nine out of ten, right. Then imagine if I took a green tea extract or a curcumin or rhodiola rosea. Now that fear, now I'm at an 11, right? So you see how people day to day, it's like, is your, is your week that much worse or did you try a new supplement to help your mitochondria that's also raising your adrenaline. But people don't connect these. They just believe whatever thoughts they're hearing. But it's all about understanding and pausing. If you're taking multiple supplements, you need to understand which of these are stimulants. But the problem is, right, we hear stimulants, we just think, yeah, we think of body stimulants, you know, so, yeah, like the actual pharmaceutical ones, right. But again, when we widen the scope to anything that raises catecholamines, we literally have data that dozens, if not hundreds of natural supplements do that. But they help with gut health, they help with inflammation. So it really, that's why helping people to understand these things, I feel is so important to me because just as you mentioned sleep and then mental health, right? I mean, if you don't have good sleep, you're not gonna have good mental health. But I'm so passionate about mental health because a, you know, my struggles with my anxiety, overthinking, but also not that it's all that matters, but it's. You can, you could be healthy by normal standards, but be in your own mind all the time. And then that you're depleting more minerals that chronic cortisol like you can, you can have so much more suffering in your life. And if I could help someone, it's not just taking the right supplements, removing the wrong ones for your sensitive body. You can get someone feeling, I don't know, 30, 40% less stressed, like overnight by just not taking that thing. But again, what company is going to put this raises catecholamines on the bottle, you know, and it's.

25:53

Well, I'll tell you a few things that come to mind. First is that you said about nurture, nature versus nurture, you know, and you're going to be able to speak to this way better than I would. But our brain has a completely different system, operating system or escalation system, if you would if we perceive the stressor as something that we've, that we've entered, we've entered willingly or is forced upon us, it's like it completely, it could be a completely different cycle in the brain. So of course, like the Tom Cruise example, it might be that for him it is, you know, you know, it's just a pure choice and then it just doesn't go through, is processed completely differently. And I think a lot of. When you said that a stressor could be perceived as an 11 because of a few supplements, not only is that true, it's if we step, if we step to the mental aspect of it for a second and not the chemical aspect. Anyone who did, who has done hard things that are endurance related knows that it is not the actual difficulty of the task that is going to make you break or quit. It is the brain's perception of how long it's going to have to endure the same amount of hardship, meaning everyone quits. You know the famous saying about Navy SEALs is that they figured people quit at about a 40% of their maximal capacity. And the reason is, is because

28:20

your

29:46

brain says, I foresee this type of hardship to be in the future, more than I can withstand and I'm going to save on resources now. So that 7 plus the inability to manage that 7 for a longer period of time or now you've prolonged the amount of time you have to withstand that 7 out of 10 is what raises it to 11. It's not that you are, it's just the length of that. It's like the inability to clear that and it becomes conditioned. I remember the first time I took Adderall, not Adderall back then it was something else. I mean it was, I was maybe like it was 15 years old. Ritalin.

29:46

Yeah, Ritalin. Got it. Yep. Yeah.

30:28

And my brain was, was anticipating the inability to focus. I remember that, you know, math, loved math, always loved math. And my brain's like, and we're gonna, oh, hey, I can still concentrate. Obviously I wanted to be as big, as strong as I could and it suppressed my appetite. So that was more important to me. And I didn't take it for long. But yeah, yeah, but that is definitely something that I remember very vividly. Where I understood a lot of it is preconditioning.

30:30

Yeah, I like that you mentioned. Well after the Tom Cruise thing, one thing I'm thinking too, I wonder. So like, I wonder the fear stuff. Like I wonder if he was truly always okay with the fear or it's pretty easy to say once you hit it big in Hollywood that nothing makes you afraid anymore.

31:03

Yeah, yeah.

31:27

You know, that's one other angle of that, Right. I'd be curious, but what you mentioned about, you know, persevering, right. And like pushing through stressors. Right. So you know that monkey on your back feeling I was mentioning, Right. You know, one of the most important things that when I work with anxious people is again, being able to identify because there's physiological anxiety. I like to call that stress. Then there's psychological anxiety. Now, people use stress and anxiety interchangeably, but I like breaking up the two. Stress is just a noisy nervous system. You're stimulated, but there's no fear component. Anxiety is when that morphs into a negative fear about, usually about the future. Right. So I'll give you an example. Like at a loud concert with your friends, and it's just really loud, it's really bright, and you just feel like, oh my. I'm just, I feel like I need to go take a breather. Right. Or like I need to go get a drink. Like, I just feel like you're not like freaking out, but you just feel that noise. Then anxiety would be, you're there, but you're worried about a deadline for work. So you see. But, but, but the interesting part here is that the physiological stress, right, that monkey on your back feeling, if you're a sensitive person and you take some of these supplements and you're, you're activated, if you don't understand what's causing what, after a certain amount of time, your brain, there's this feeling your brain will go into your subconscious and try to find a narrative or story to explain the feeling. So now initially you were just activated, not fearful about anything, not mad about anything. And then after a couple of hours or a couple, you keep taking the supplement. Days go eventually. Now you're connecting it to like, I can't believe my friend didn't reach out to me. Or, you know, I'm. What you have that adrenaline feeling. Like, oh, like this might be about that deadline I have coming up. Or, oh, like, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be seeing my friend I haven't seen in a while. Right. So you see how these seemingly minor things can very easily snowball. Cause it's like you could have, you know, let's just say if you were, you know, back to the trauma side. Like, let's just say if you were attacked by a dog when you were a child, and if you're around dogs that are barking, it, it rattles you, right, because it reminds you of that. Well, I'm not saying that avoiding these supplements will cure that, right? That's a therapy thing, right? But imagine if you knew you were going to be around some dogs later that day. And imagine I'll just use the green tea curcumin example again, right? You probably shouldn't take those supplements that day because guess what? Any little spike of adrenaline that your brain squirts out, it's gonna get trapped there, right? So it's not that these are causing the trauma is what's making you respond initially. But then these could snowball, right? So this is why, like, I teach people about proper usage of the supplements. Because I don't hear people saying, oh, here's a day where you prob. Probably shouldn't take a certain supplement even though it's marketed for your joint health or something, right? Because understanding your own body, like, really understanding yourself, and then maybe you want to do breath work or something before you go into the house with the dog. Or I'll give you another example. You know, I had a client that was doing breath work, trying to meditate midday at work every day. She's a coach, and it was just overstimulated. Midday wasn't working. And turns out she was having an alpha lipoic acid supplement for her mitochondria that's very rich in sulfur. We removed that. The next day she emailed me, oh, my God, Tyler, I could cry. Like, I could drop into my meditation so easily. And I actually realized I didn't even really need the meditation so direly anymore. Because the reason why she felt like she had to meditate was again, because of the supplement. So how many people are trying to do the breath work, the yoga, and they're trying to calm themselves down and it's not working because it's not a mental, psychological thing, It's a biochemical thing.

31:27

Yeah, I love it. I think you just made someone stop meditating, but whatever. Yeah, sure.

35:55

Well, medication is great for a lot of other reasons. Right? But again, it's. It's like you don't want to try and you don't want to try to use, like, a mind tool for a body problem, right? Like, you want to try in the right tool for the right scenario.

36:03

So let's switch gears a little bit. What would you say if someone's skin isn't responding to their routine? What's the first thing you'd tell them to look for?

36:18

I think gut pretty much. Yeah. The guts. Well, I guess. Are we. Are we Talking about more like anti wrinkle, anti aging or more of like the inflammatory.

36:25

I think they can be connected. I think many times they're connected with.

36:34

Yeah, definitely could be connected. I didn't know if we, I initially heard that and I thought more on the acne side of stuff and that would be more of like a gut related thing. But if someone has clear skin itself and you know, whether it's wrinkle, anti aging something I see a lot is just making sure the products, you know, quality products that are stored properly. Right. Like I've seen a lot of people with the vitamin C serums, right. That those are. The ph is very, very important. And the, the ph, the stability, the oxidation risk. Right. So you got that bottle. Are you stor. Is it in a dark light protected bottle? Right. That's really, really important. Those oxidation products are not biologically active.

36:37

You know what I, yeah, you know, NMN is so common right now and people don't understand. It's like, you know, it, it degrades, just degrades over time. And I tell people like pop your, your little capsule and like taste it, within three months you're going to taste a much more sour taste. Which means it's basically niacinamide. You're basically paying, you know, 10 times more for the same product. So store it in the freezer or whatever.

37:21

Well, any of the niacinamide, you know, I know people do those in skin products as well. But that enzyme, right, that's really converting that niacinamide, that decreases as we age as well. And I like on the genetic side, you know, we can see how well that's working at the base genetic level, so can figure out that enzyme may be hardwired to not work as well for you. And then niacinamide, I mean, there's other benefits other than just nad for that, right? But some people will say, oh just take niacinamide, save your money on the NMN and stuff. And sure, that could make sense if you aren't old, right. If you're not aged and if your genetics kind of, you know, permit that. I think a lot of, you know, I'm sure you'll agree with this. I think when it comes to the aging of the skin, you know, I think a lot of it is trying to. The idea why I think is more so to prevent the degradation rather than trying to promote the build up, you know, far after the fact. Because you know, if you have a, if you have a 40 year old that's been using proper Sunscreen. And hey, I'm all for controlled sun exposure, right? Like, I don't think we should be fearing the sun. We should be fearing sun burn, right? Like it's getting nice here in New York and I went out unprotected for like 20 minutes. Right? But the low dosage to work up, but you don't want to be cooking yourself. But the, like the person that does that versus the 40 year old that starts dropping $1,000 a month on their skin care routine, who's going to end up ahead, right? I agree.

37:53

First of all, I think the sun just in, in our community, the sun conversation is not, it's. First of all, there's no, no one gives a place for nuance. Like your dermatologist is going to have a hit, is going to have a hissy fit if you tell them anything about sun exposure. And you know, the person that you know that speaks about sun callous doesn't exist, by the way. But like sun callous is going to.

39:27

Well, what I've honestly never heard of.

39:59

Oh, you're not. What is that you're not praying at the right altar. I guess sun callous is the notion that you are able to change your epigenetics in a way where you're not experiencing DNA damage from being exposed to the sun. And this is, and some of it I will grant, like very slowly you could expose yourself to, you know, hot, you know, early in the day or late in the day sun and very slowly, like have more pigment in your skin. But there, there, it's limited. It's definitely.

40:01

Are they saying that that can be even independent. Yes, to melanin contact. So even. Okay, yeah, see that's that at first glance that doesn't make any sense to me. That, I mean, I think that could be a very minor protective effect. But I'm sure the people you're talking about are probably acting as if like you could just be pretty much immune to that and do whatever you want.

40:45

Yes, exactly. And you know, there's. First of all, like, if we are, if we're just going out like off of first principles, you are going to. Even if you've achieved that fabled sun callous, I would say first of all you're going to experience a lot of sun, a lot of DNA damage in the, in interim. And the question is if we're, if we're hyper focused on like looking good as far as like your facial skin is concerned, how about you expose areas that are less exposed day to day, which actually means that they you know, need more sun. They can convert it to vitamin D3 better. That's why they're lighter in color. And you're not gonna, you know, your wrinkles around your belly button are going to be significantly less. No one gets Botox on their belly button. Or if they do, I've never heard about. Right. Like facial wrinkling. It's like put sunscreen on your face. But, but back to, to the nuance, like there is no, no nuance. And I think many things could be, could be said in between. There are companies that are coming out with, coming out with supplements that supposed to help you experience less sun damage, obviously through things like astaxanthin or lycopenes or other things that are antioxidants.

41:08

Yeah. Say pipic nose and all is another one as well. I've kind of looked into that a bit as well there. And you know, just to, you know, I think that's a good opportunity for me to say like what I call, we kind of touched on, I call the iceberg effect of natural supplements. We talked about the polyphenols that they can do. Right. Astaxanthin, you know, very great antioxidant. Right. But it's. How much antioxidant capabilities do you really need? Right. Like how old are you? What are your genetics like for your mitochondria, for those super oxide dismutase enzymes? Right. Now, you know, we use oxidation to also break down dopamine. So something I noticed with myself and after I noticed that I started seeing this pattern in some of my more sensitive clients is astaxanthin mops up all the reactive oxygen species, which can be good. But in order to focus, we have our tonic or baseline dopamine and our phasic dopamine. So to be, you need to have a difference. So if you, your baseline, it spikes up. Now you feel that contrast, you feel interested. Well, we break down dopamine with oxidation. So some people, I've realized they're taking the astaxanthin. I'm one of them. I really. Most of them, most of them recommend 12mg for astaxanthin. I can't go over 4mg for more than a week or two. I need to space it out. Otherwise I feel kind of emotionally flat. Blah. And can't really focus as well. Right. So again, it's like all this great data for photo aging. Right. But it's like there's always that other, like we mentioned tradeoffs initially to be

42:24

understood if you want to, if you want to supersize it, I mean, you could talk. You know, people who are taking methylene blue are, and, and SSRIs are actually putting themselves in danger.

44:09

Well, I can't. That is, again, that's one of those inhibitors, right? So it's like that one is very on the rank of what we were talking about, right? We have the curcumin, resveratrol, they all do this, that same mechanism as methylene blue, just not as potently, right? So you have methylene blue, you have Syrian rue, that's the plant they use for ayahuasca, because that is a very, very strong inhibitor as well. The Syrian rue and methylene blue, those are so powerful at blocking, trapping those neurotransmitters in the brain that doctors actually know. Okay. Like you could really mess yourselves up. Right? But you see, where my mind goes with these things is, okay, a certain dosage of methylene blue, let's just say it blocks it this much. Well, if you're taking curcumin, resveratrol, they all stack up. So I've seen this in people taking the essence. They feel weird, they feel kind of sick. We remove the supplements, they feel better. Right? But you see, it's like it's such this nuanced again, this kind of invisible land of supplement interactions, right? Then to compound that, now we're making all these liposomal forms. You know, supplement science is really advancing and we're getting so much more of these actives into circulation, into the cells that now you think you're getting 5,000% more anti inflammatory effects of the curcumin. Well, guess what, going to get 5,000% more of the serotonin raising effects as well, right? So it's like how many weak MAO inhibitors do you need to equal a methyl blue? And no, we know no one's going to fund that study, right? But it's like people are taking one supplement from a tiktoker, they found one from a podcast, now they have nine new supplements and they're playing with fire there. Right, Sorry to cut you off with the detour on the, on the. But yeah, that one really, can really, really cause damage. For sure.

44:21

For sure. And by the way, that is why we have a lot of conversations around methylene blue as well, but around whether it is curcumin, resveratrol, nmn. We can talk about niacinamide in a second. But these are ingredients that you definitely, you cannot say, oh, I'm taking them systemically, therefore, I don't need them topically. The opportunity to apply them topically without getting the systemic effects, you know, almost those dosages whatsoever is actually huge. The, you know, the surface area of the skin is huge. You would need so, so, so so much material, such high dose to achieve what you can achieve topically that you are going to sensitize other things or you're going to affect other things.

46:27

Well, well there's even, also, even the enzymatic machinery is different.

47:22

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

47:27

By the way as well, right? Yeah. I think, I think it's that N N A N amp NAMPT enzyme, right? Like, like that. So that's, you know, it's in the skin but it's not as, it's not expressed as highly. Right. So it's like again, not only are you not getting as much niacinamide there, but the fundamental machinery, right. That's actually converting it into that real bioenergetic nmn nad. Right. Not only different, I mean same with the creatine stuff. I'm sure you read up on the top.

47:28

That was my, that was my next, that was my next point.

48:00

Yeah, yeah.

48:03

But just for niacinamide specifically, not only that, nampt which is, I call it like the toll booth dilemma. Like, you know, it's not about how many cars, you know, can, you know, you, you can pass. There's a toll booth that you need to, that you need to stop at and, and get a convert, get conversion happen for it to become an active ingredient. Not only that, even assume, assume you've, you've, you've, you've, you've achieved high levels of niacinamide and you're saying, okay, I have, you know, I'm patient. Basically they're gonna go through the toll booth one at a time and eventually I'm gonna have high levels of nad, which is what we wanna achieve for the most part. The backup the toll booth could actually also signal the reduction of activity activities of other enzymes like SIRT1 specifically, or PARPs, which are what are called like NAD plus minus dependent enzymes. It means like your body is saying, oh my God niacinamide. The material that is left at the end of my usage of nad, I have so much of it I need to chill the F out with using those enzymes. I've used so much of them and that's why I have a lot of niacinamide. I'm going to deprioritize DNA maintenance and repair. So you are at two places. You're actually kind of messing up that anti aging whatever longevity pathway system. Highway system.

48:04

Yeah. I mean there's the toll boost side. Yeah. There's that degradation side as well. Right. Like, like I'm. I'm really like when I do NMN, like I do maybe 100 milligrams because again I'm so, I feel it, you know, stimulation wise for me. You know, people say it's not a full clinic. I'm like, listen, I'm not even taking that so much. You know, I'm 33. I mean I'm not even taking it so much because my levels are low. I just liked there's multiple different things I'll rotate right to kind of biohack different mood. This, that around 100 milligrams, 50 to 100 milligrams of good NMN is one of those. But you know something else I realized I feel a bit better on, I've seen this with sensitive people is you know, how are you breaking down the nad, right. So like CD38 is really important for that. And we know things like apigenin is a CD38 inhibitor. Five amino, one MQ, you know, that's a peptide that could do that a bit more strongly.

49:36

Also increases the, the tall booths, if you would.

50:34

Yeah, the, the five amino. Yeah, yeah. So you get, you're getting both ends there. Right. Because it's not everybody. There's different ways to skin the cat. And this is why we need to be important, understanding mechanisms. And it's like I've seen some people, they're like, oh yeah, I'm doing NMN, NAD N5amine. And I'm like, do you need all of that? Because this does affect that methylation system. Right. It consumes methylation requirements. So people can be under methylating. They're using up so many of these things. That's why, you know, a lot of these NAD brands are starting to use things like trimethylglycine baytine in there to try and help counteract that. You need to be mindful of where you're at. Right. And especially when you're doing these, you know, these higher doses, these longevity by

50:37

the way, I think that's a huge part of the newly found, you know, affection to TMG trimethylglycine. I think it's the balancing of methyl. Methyl donors and.

51:31

Yeah, well, let me tell you.

51:44

No, no, no. It's funny that people are redesign.

51:46

Yes. Because it's funny. Well, it's funny too that I. That's one of the most wrongly utilized supplements I've seen. Because people hear trimethylglycine, they think methylation, longevity. But when people hear baytine, they think stomach acid support, digestion. They're the same exact molecule. So they just attach betaine or trimethylglycine to a hydrochloric acid molecule, and then that's sold as digestive support. So people will be taking a gram or two of baytine per meal. So they're getting these grams, dosages. And we were talking about how having too much NAD boosters that can. That can be leading to undermethylation. Right. So you're raising your homocysteine levels. That's why you want to add baytide in, to manage it. Well, what if you're popping these baytine pills like candy? The bottle doesn't even say it's methylation. It just says. It's just.

51:50

It says board.

52:53

Because it has that hydrochloric acid. Exactly. So now you're over methylating. You're pushing it too far that way. That's one of the most common things I see people make. I mean, gut health is one of the top things people struggle with. They want that hydrochloric acid molecule. Right?

52:54

Right.

53:11

And they don't realize that it also affects methylation. So it's just, again, it all comes down to perspective. You may think you're taking it for mitochondria and gut health. Someone else may view it as, you know, iron issues or cognitive health. Right. But me as a pharmacologist, I just try to help people see all those perspectives. Right. And of course, it can be overwhelming. There's a lot of different things. But nowadays with AI and everything, I mean, you know, ask for a supplement you're going to get. I recommend people, like, don't take everything perfectly as gospel. I don't mean give it your full stack and tell me if it's good for me ingredient by ingredient. What are the molecular mechanisms? How does this system, how does this supplement work in the human body? And what could maybe be some potential side effects to at least understand, oh, wow, that curcumin can lower iron. I'm low on iron. Or I've been taking it when I have my ground beef in the morning or something, Right. So I'm shooting myself in the foot.

53:11

So, Tyler, I really want to go back, go kind of go over testing, but could you please, like, because I'm a babbler, so could you please, like, in two seconds, touch on creatine and skin? You know, we're coming out. We've worked for four years trying to get creatine, not to convert to creatinine with different encapsulations and nanosize it so it could absorb into the skin. And we're coming out with a product probably pretty soon actually that has it as like mitochondria specific. But could you, you know, you, you alluded to creatine repletion and its benefits to skin. So could you please touch on it for one second? And then I'm, I want to make sure I cover some like, questions about testing.

54:16

Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, now creatine, there was one study that I'm familiar with that they were checking in the jowl area in older individuals to kind of help tighten up the skin. And I view it somewhat similarly as the whole NAD side of stuff. Right. It's more on the bioenergetic side of things. Right. And aging skin. You know, I think most of health comes down to mitochondria at the end of the day. Right. So that's why. And it's, you know, creatine actually uses up roughly 50% of our body's overall methylation capacity. So it is a massive driver or consumer of methylation. So my point is, right, like there's not a study exactly assessing this, but you know, intuitively here you're overdoing those NAD boosters. You may be stealing some of that methylation capacity for your own endogenous.

54:59

And creatine is like the most important thing in order to, to, you know, donate, you know, phosphorus and like to replenish that system, the NAD system.

55:53

So much more than a bro science muscle building supplement. So, so much more, more than that. But yeah, there was that one study now, and that's a really good point you brought up. Right. The breakdown, the delivery, of course. Right. But you can have the best delivery system. You want to make sure you still have the proper active by the time it gets transported, stored on a shelf, shipped out to someone and someone finishes the whole bottle.

56:02

That's, by the way, just like one anecdote. That's why there's so much talk around creatine gummies. It's because they are first liquid and then they're formed into, you know, your favorite, you know, gummy supplements. So when they're in liquid form, they, they grade mostly to creatinine. There's some of it that degrades creatinine. Then they test, you know, 5 milligrams, creating gummies, and they have like one or two or whatever. But my question as far as like, where are you now? Is first of all, as far as testing, so you said, you know, people might be sensitive, they might react to different things. So yes, you could do genetic testing and that could allude to potential issues. But you've also mentioned we have so many switches that some switches could be on, some, some are off. So is, is there, where are we as far as like continuous testing and inference out of that? And where are we, where, where are we in the future as far as like omics, different omics tests or how would that make.

56:27

I'm glad you mentioned that. Yeah, yeah. So genetics, right? Genomics, right, like that, this is just one of many of the omics. We'll, we'll dive into a few of them and it's just been the one that's been the most tried and true. It's like the longest standing. Right. So we have the most data around it. We know genetics absolutely play a role in health. We have decades of literature around that. Right. But as you were mentioning, how are we turning the genes on and off, you know, as we age the age related changes that happen, Our genetics don't change. If your genetics change, that's the beginning of cancer, right? Like so that's, that's your genetic. But how you are expressing these genes change. So you know, sometimes people will ask me, you know, epigenetics have been much hotter, you know, lately because they're newer. People will say, all right, well then if you're, you don't even know if the gene is on or off, why even get genetic tested, right? Well, you need to understand it's not like your cells just turn off all of a gene, right? Like your cells could never turn off the gene that converts vitamin D proper form like you, your cells need that, right? But for example, when you get vitamin D from supplements or Sunl, it turns on you. You make more of the genes that make serotonin and dopamine. So that's why seasonal depression is a thing. But as a geneticist, that protein, that enzyme, that workhorse that's converting the vitamin D, sure you can make more of them, but if you have five, six plus genetic variants in that gene, it depends if you have one or two, then you can upregulate it and you get enough workers, right? So instead of your worker working an eight hour shift to convert the vitamin D, it works a six and a half hour shift.

57:25

Who cares if he's drunk during the six hours? At least he works, you know,

59:20

well, hey, I mean you can look. Well yeah, you can look at it. Either they're working a smaller shift or they're drunk on the job, you know, either way they're not doing as much as they should be doing. But if you have, you know, six or eight variants in that gene, that worker is that work barely get.

59:25

That worker has bad habits.

59:40

Exactly, bad habits. And these, this is why it doesn't matter if you have a variant, it's how many do you have. So I've worked with people that are surfers. They're in all the time, they're in the sun. Their vitamin D levels don't really budge on blood work because of that. Right. So that's the epigenetics, that's transcriptomics. You can measure how much of the MRNA of the, of the next stage, the instructions are made. Then you have proteomics. So that's how much proteins are being made by the way.

59:43

Just like, just like a layman reference. That's most of the like the peptides people are using. That's the system they're connecting to.

1:00:15

Yeah, exactly. So. Exactly. And then there's the metabolomics, how you're metabolizing these different things. You know, that's really, that's a really, really accurate, you know, snapshot. Right. Of these actual metabolites. Because again, if you're converting A into B, you can check the genetics of the worker, you can see how much of the worker you're making. But you really, at the end of the day you really want to see how much of B you have. Right. Because that's really what's really, really mattering here. You also have things like microbiomes, so the microbiome. Right. What types of gut bacteria you're having? A newer field is exposome. Yeah. So what are the Olmecs of what you're exposed to? So I'm, I'm on the board of American Precision Medicine for Functional genomics and pharmacology and that's where our mission is. Bringing together all these omics under one.

1:00:22

Yeah.

1:01:21

Roof. So there are some companies that do just transcriptomics, a million and one doing genetics. Right. But the future that I'm so excited for, it's going to be all these like layers of a book that are all layering on top of each other with AI because it's an immense amount of data to really help drive, you know, those personalized responses. It's just, it's just going to take a while. I mean I, I think it's a futurum is a company, they do direct to consumer multi ohm testing. The only one that I've seen it is not cheap remotely as you could probably assume. It's all these things on top of each other. Right. But that's the first that I've seen that's doing that direct to consumer. But I kind of view it how, you know, genetic testing used to be what, thousand, $2,000. Now the test itself for genetics, the test itself is maybe 150, $200, right. Then you got to, the company's got to make money, right. You got to figure out, because it's a one and done test, all those things. But I think years down the road, all the testing, once the AI is ironed out, once they figure out, I don't know the token usage, I don't know how they're going to do all that stuff. Right. But once that comes in a reasonable range for most people, I don't know the exact time frame, I don't know, maybe five, 10 years. But that'll kind of be where genetics is now, where you have all these things layered on top of each other. And it could be really cool doing organ specific things as well. So what if you get something from the skin, you know, versus the liver versus the blood? Well, so really exciting stuff on the horizon.

1:01:21

Well, to your point, first of all, I really liken it to what Uber is now, where you could buy alcohol, a taco and bananas at the same app, right? It's it, it provides you and, and, and get a ride right at the same app. And it's all kind of a central hub that, that makes it very accessible. And way back when you needed to take a taxi in order to buy your bananas and another taxi to buy something else or take your car obviously. And I mean there are companies, for example, like Heads Up Health where they're gonna try to connect everything together and from all your tests and give you a good read on what you're doing. There are companies that start that, that, that are leading you through that like self decode. But I think, yeah, I agree with.

1:02:57

They're who I use, you know, for my genetic testing, you know, and they've been great. You know, they're very, very comprehensive. But it's, you know, again it's. We kind of mentioned the one extreme of the testing where people on Joe Rogan, it's a five gene test, which is nothing. South Dakota is the other end where I love them, they're so cutting edge. But it's hundreds of reports, right. So that's what I mean I hand make my reports right now. It's not the Most scalable thing. But how do you find the proper depth, what's really important without just giving a fraction of that information? Right. So yeah, I just want self decode. They're great. But again that's just going to be one layer, you know, stacking up on these over time.

1:03:53

By the way, to your point about cost, we have a test. So we have a, we've designed a test together with Theriom which are.

1:04:32

Yeah, I'm familiar with them. Yeah. Yep.

1:04:41

Dr. Paneez Jasby was here on the podcast. So they have a few omics tests. We use the metabolomics test and the less metabolites you you're testing, the more accurate you are within the, within that parameter. So we're only testing ones that are related to, you know, your, your skin or more specifically your integumentary system. But it's been very difficult to tell, you know, practitioners because it's only through practitioners. It was very difficult to tell them, hey, it's not only recommending like Yango's product, that's not why you're doing this test. The test is the idea to say hey, if you want like quicker results, this is how you plug in gaps as far as like skincare. But you really should be recommending lifestyle changes.

1:04:43

Yeah.

1:05:25

Because of that.

1:05:25

Yeah.

1:05:26

And the cost is very high. Like right now we sell it at cost. Again like practitioner needs to make some money at the end of the day. But we don't make money out of it. We just want to get as many people tested as possible. So that costs lower dramatically and building

1:05:27

their models too, you know like it's. Paniz is on the board as well that I mentioned and shout out to Paneer. Yeah, shout out to Paniz. Yeah. I've interacted with them two or three times and yeah, you know it's, it's also building you know, models to make things better as well. You know it's bringing the costs down but also improving. Yeah. The quality of the worker of the product or the insights. Yeah.

1:05:42

Okay, listen, we're over time we have too much fun talking but this has been fantastic. How can people first of all mention your incredible online Instagram, et cetera, information that you share but also how can people work with you one on one? How can they join the webinar? Everything's going to be in the show notes but share a little bit about that.

1:06:07

Yeah. So at Dr. Tyler Panzer, I'm pretty much on all, all the different socials. I do one on one, you know, genetic based things, looking at labs Blood work and working from people that are high level entrepreneurs that just really want to dial in their focus to people that have mysterious health issues that doctors, you know, can't really figure out. So I like to say if you have human cells and you're open to supplementation, I think I could add value because my perspective is trying to find the biggest genetic weak points. And as we discussed, a lot of things that could go wrong with supplements. Yeah, People come to me taking all these supplements and really making people feel better just by removing the wrong things and getting a truly comprehensive every. I, I don't want to say blueprint because all these genetic companies say the word blueprint, but all these blueprints, they don't focus on what's not good for you. It's trying to highlight. I'll, I want to let you know this could be good, but it might lower your blood pressure. So if you get a headache, that's why. Right. Yeah, I have that program. You know, there'll be a webinar coming out in I think around two weeks or so. Really excited for that and yeah, just really looking forward to educating people. You know, again, being totally unbiased here and just helping people make more informed decisions because everyone is so overwhelmed with all this contradictory health information.

1:06:30

Yes, yes. No. You know, that's kind of what, what excited me about speaking with you in the first place. I think the more money flows into the field, the people who are aiming to do good are being tested. I mean, we're being tested when like a big VC wants to buy us or people are being tested when, you know, Nestle or whoever is trying to give them a lot of money to mention an ingredient online when the data is not really that great. And I think it's very important to platform and to support people who are well intentioned and well informed. Well intentioned is maybe easier to find than both. Anyway, Tyler, thank you very much. It was fantastic. We are definitely going to work on getting you here again. Maybe it's not going to take a year this time.

1:07:58

Yeah, no, we'll definitely make it happen. And yeah, we could that adhd. Right. We could gap on forever. So, yeah, we could go down plenty of more rabbit holes here to help however I can. Thanks so much for having me.

1:08:56

Thank you.

1:09:08