Guitar Hero: Everybody’s a rock star

Would you like to be a rock star? Here's the deal, you don't need any skills, you don't need to know how to play a musical instrument, you don't even need to be willing to get up on stage in front of people and do something. All you need is $70, playstation 2, and probably a whole bunch of time on your hands, because there's this game you might have heard of called Guitar Hero. That is going to, if not make you a rock star, but at least make you feel a lot more like one. From the Virgin Vox Media, this is version history, a show about deep deaths and worst and strangest and most interesting products in the history of technology. I'm David Pierce, and today it's time to talk about what is almost certainly the most important guitar in video game history. The most important guitar in video game history. Support for the show comes from one password. A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way that actors attack companies and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution. One password lets you manage all your business credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows. Find out more at onepassword.com, slash podcast offer, and start securing every login. Support for the show comes from one password. A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way that actors attack companies and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution. One password lets you manage all your business credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure as your company grows. Find out more at onepassword.com, slash podcast offer, and start securing every login. Welcome back. It's version history. It's guitar hero. Let's do this. Ash Parish is here. Hi Ash. Hi. All the way from Ohio. Yes. Can't do this with us. I'm so excited. Chris Grant, also here. Not from as far away. That's okay. We're making it work. So before we get into guitar hero, here's what I want to know. It's like I want you both to describe like your peak guitar hero, era. Like how good were you? When was it? How do you feel about it now? Ash, you go first. Peak Ash. Peak Ash. This was shortly after the first guitar hero came out. It was a big deal that I got the game at all. You had the first one? Yes. Because gaming was not a thing, not a loud thing. And my house for the most part, my consoles had to be bought by my dad. And my dad would give me money and he would send me to the mall, to hear a kid, go have fun or whatever. And that was a substitute for parenting me. And it was a big deal to get guitar hero because it was so expensive. And it was like this big, clunky piece of plastic and my mother is very neat and very clean and she doesn't like, first of all, she doesn't like the idea of like a console because back in those days of 2000. Sure. Yeah. The console was on the floor, like hooked up to wires. Like it wasn't a thing where a console was connected to your TV at all times. You took it out, you played with it, you put it away. So the idea of having this console and then this other big piece of plastic on top of that was like a non-starter. So the fact that I had it was like a big deal. And then I just played it over and over and over again. And the cool thing about guitar hero for me is that I was a very nerdy child. So I grew up listening to jazz music. Nice. Yeah. Like I played saxophone when I was a kid and my saxophone teacher, she told my mom to get me like Dave Brubeck CDs and like Stan Gets CDs. And that's what I listened to and that's what I liked. Up did not endear me. All too my peers. And the cars are like, oh guys, Dave Brubeck and they're like, it's time to go. And then I got to play guitar hero and I got to get exposed to incubus. And like even Jimmy Hendrix, like this, I was not like a rock and roll household. So like I heard Jimmy Hendrix for the first time. I was born for the first time and I loved these songs and that like continues to today. That's awesome. Do you have a song that you remember as like the track you would tread on and the first one? So it was Spanish Castle Magic, which was the Jimmy Hendrix experience and then Bargat de Moon. Nice. I would just do that. That's cool music. That's cool music. Okay. That's awesome. Chris, what about you? I don't know when I was best at it because I can't remember that far back. I was 20 years ago. I know. Two decades. I'll say this, we loaded up guitar hero one here on my PlayStation with my eight megabyte memory card and I had to say a file on it, which I had in my wisdom at the age of 25 titled God as the user name. So I don't remember doing this. I did unlock all the tracks on that profile though. So I'm gonna go ahead and say that that's probably when I was best based on the arrogance. I did enjoy the thing. We got to the end of one of the rounds and it pops up like the newspaper showing the headline of how you did and it was like solid set from God. Tell you. Yeah. At no point do I ever feel like I excelled at it and I think that the secret of guitar hero from me, I didn't play an instrument at all. I don't feel like I'm a musical person. But I could play guitar hero well enough that I felt competent in my living in a alone or with my partner. I would go to press events and see people playing guitar hero other press members and just like shredding on an expert level and being like, oh, that's not for me. I still felt good doing it at home. So I think that's like one of the magic, part of the magic of the game, but I would say I'm consistently a C player. Okay, that's about where I landed too. And my memory of it is the my like friend group went straight from all playing N64 Mario games, which I was good at to playing guitar hero to playing Halo, which I was trash at. And I would lose like 50 to negative three in Halo because I would like run off the side and die a few times and like that wasn't fun at all. Guitar hero, I was the worst at all of my friends but was still like fun to play, which was like a magical thing about guitar heroes that it's like accommodated being lots of different ways at the game. But then I had a bunch of friends who were like actual musicians and guitar players who got really good at it and really annoying about it. You know who you are if you're watching this. My musicians hated it because they're like, oh, this is wrong. Like this doesn't like if you know how guitar feels, you're playing it like all those people who were like just doesn't feel enough like a real good time. Didn't matter. Please, very cool. Yeah, congratulations to you on all of your accomplishments. And your big muscles. Exactly. So let me just I have a lot of notes here on like the story of guitar hero a bit. So we're talking about the very first guitar hero. And I'm just I'm going to walk through the history as I have come to understand it. You both know a lot about this too. So together we're going to we're going to try to explain where guitar hero come from. Does that sound good? Sounds good. OK. So the story starts in 2004, which is actually substantially later than I would have guessed, which is sort of fascinating. And there's two companies, harmonics and red octane. We should probably talk about harmonics first. And I'm curious for you in particular, you had been like sort of in the gaming world professionally around this time. Were you aware of harmonics like in the early arts? Harmonics had the company existed before this. And they had some flak flops, at least. But they did strike some magic with their earlier PlayStation 2 games, frequency and amplitude, I think in that order. Those great games, critically acclaimed. Oh, actually, while we're talking about frequency, let me just play you this clip we have a frequency. The gameplay in frequency is like tempest meets dance, dance revolution, where you're actually traveling down I love that description music. That's actually great. And you choose a particular track to play, which is a particular instrument like drum bass. It looks a lot like guitar hero. Like guitar hero in a octagon. OK, so you got the two games right, but you missed one thing that harmonics did that I would very much like to tell you about, which is called the Axe. And I just have this clip that I want to play for you. In which harmonics describes what the Axe is. This is the first thing they ever made as a company. Harmonics is an interactive music software company created by two guys from MIT's Media Lab. And they've spent the past five years developing this technology, which is going to be the hottest thing to hit the music world in the last decade. And it's called the Axe. You pick your song, you pick your instrument, and you pick your interactive music video, which graphically shows you what you're playing. You hit the play button and you're off. You're making music. I just love the way the 90s love the sounds and playing style of the instrument with either a joystick or mouse. I really love the Axe. It was like with no practice, I could pick up a guitar and play along with James Brown. First of all, there's just no way that's true. The flight stick also is great. That's my favorite part of that whole clip. He's like describing how it works. And it's this insane looking like on screen control center. And then he just picks up a joystick. And it's like an on-radiant like, yeah, for folks that are listening, this is a 1990 style, like sidewinder flight stick, just some real 90s PC energy. It's very good. But there were, that's a bunch of the ideas that ended up being guitar hero, right? It's a physical object. You get to have a thing that moves around. You get to sort of control the instrument lots of different ways. And then frequency and amplitude were basically similar games. So this is also right around the time if I'm doing my history correctly, that DDR was like taking over the world. Were you guys DDR people? Yes. This actually makes perfect sense. I was like, I knew for sure you were going to say, yes, to this. Were you good at DDR? No. Were you committed anyway? Yes. Because so, I'm a girl. And boys, like this is back in 2005, 2006, that kind of era of video game girls versus boys kind of culture. And the boys had the shooter games that they would be really good at. And they would play doom on ultranite mayor and stuff like that. And I wanted a game that I could be good at, that I could, they would look to me like the same kind of prowess as we look at people that can do those shooters games really well. And like rhythm games were that for me. But DDR is way too intensive for the cardio even back then. So I focused on making guitar hero my thing to varying levels of success. I'm a spaghetti man. You can't see it. You're listening right now. But I'm a very tall man. And I have very, it's called inconsistent controls in very different parts of my body you're going. So DDR was particularly challenging for me. My feet are very far away from my head. And I, the brain signals just don't get there quickly. They take a minute. Or two to get all the way down there. And so I'm not going to show you what that looks like. But you can imagine it in your head. It's not great. Similar to Ash. Guitar hero for me was some chance to sort of like see and enjoy that style of physicality from rhythm games. But in a way that my hands were closer to my brain and it only took a little bit of time to get there. It feels good when a game engages your entire body. Games don't really do that so much anymore. And that's why when you get games that do like take full faculties, like you have to like write notes. Or you get into it like physically it feels good. And that's why guitar hero feels good to play even though you get like really bad claw hands at the end. Yeah, guitar hero I think ended up being like right down the middle of that. Like it's very physical and not too much work. But the reason I bring up DDR is because it came out in 1998 and it was mostly in like an arcade thing in Japan. And it was this giant monster hit. And Red Octane first sort of made its money by making somewhere between like legit and bootleg DDR pads for people who just wanted to play the game. Well, in fact they actually first made their money as a video game rental service. That's right. Didn't make any money though. Well, hold on, hold on. They had one. They made something. This is before the dot com bus. They busted on that. And idea was good. I mean, I did came back later with other services gameplay. But they pivoted to yeah, physical pads. Yeah. And so they were making these pads and selling them to people who had a PlayStation version of the game. Because you could get the game, but you couldn't get like the thing to dance on, which is sort of important in DDR. And basically what happens is Red Octane is like, OK, we want to do all this rhythm game stuff in the US. We want to make a peripheral. We probably need to make a game. They don't know how to make a game. So they call harmonics, which like you said, has made these two games frequency and amplitude that were rhythm style games this way. But they were like kind of wonky. They were like accomplished games, but people didn't like them that much. People who played them liked them. They won awards, but they didn't do very well. They did not the description of the game and seeing any footage of the game was not appealing to like based on the sales numbers, anybody. So playing a thing I heard about rhythm games. But over and over from people is that like one of the great challenges of these games was once you play it, you get it. And it's really fun. But the description of it sounds awful. And even to watch like a video of what the game looks like on a screen is bad. You're like, it's just dots running at me. Why would I want to play that physical? For folks who are familiar with what guitar here at all, so I frequency and amplitude look exactly like that. They look almost identical, but you're playing with a PlayStation controller. Yeah, just with your hands. And so it doesn't have any of that same sort of visual appeal. Yeah. The harmonics folks did make one other game that I should just show you very quickly, because a thing that I have discovered is that this game karaoke revolution also turned out to be very important in what would become guitar here. So here's what karaoke revolution was. The first and only karaoke video game for your PlayStation 2. Single logs over 35 hit songs made famous by Avril Lavigne, Nickelback, Aurem, Bear naked ladies and more. And as you rock the crowd, the game scores your performance. It's the ultimate party game for parties of one or 100 ready. I miss commercials like that. Right. Yeah. But there's a bunch of things happening in that video, right? There's a game that you have to do something with other than press buttons on a controller. You get active feedback from the crowd. It gives you sort of improve and fail as you go. There is a thing that looks like a stage that you're on as you're performing like out of guitar and karaoke revolution just is guitar hero. And the realization they all take out of this is like, oh, people want to be rock stars. Like that's the thing. Put me in coach is like the vibe everybody has here. They want to be part of it. And I think in the way that like dancing very quickly and well is really hard. More people can stand in front of their TV and sing passively. And so that was like fun and people were into that. So these two companies, one that knows how to make rhythm games but can't figure out how to sell them to anybody. And one company that knows how to make really cool peripherals but doesn't really know how to make games, it's like kind of a perfect match. So they find each other and they pretty quickly, as I understand it, decide they're going to make a game together. And Red Octane from what I understand was super, super into guitar freaks, which was big in Japan. They had been thinking about wanting to bring it to the US. So these two companies make a deal in our late 2005 to make a game and they decide they want to ship it by the holiday season of 2005, which I don't, you all both know a lot more about game development than I do but that's traced me as insanity. It's unusual. Yeah, unusual. To save the least. Yeah. Yeah, I mean to the point where it's like, and they decided pretty quickly they wanted to make a controller. They left guitar freaks so they wanted to do something like that. The guitar hero controller, spoiler alert, looks an awful lot like the guitar freaks controller. They wanted to make it a little more complicated. They wanted to make it so that you could actually feel like you're playing a guitar and it's hard and it's work. So they added more buttons. They made it a little more complex, but this was just the thing that they wanted to do. And yeah, like you said, they took on this truly bonkers task of trying to do it in nine months. There are other options I found out by the way. I don't know anything about this except that one of the developers said that there are other options other than guitar hero was to make a ductile game. I have no more information, but I would desperately love to know what the red octane version of. Yeah, right. The peripheral would have been Uncle Scrooge's cane and you would have pulled on it. Yeah, hell yeah. Kitchen, right? What if it had been from the moon? Straight marked by the way, Chris Grant, 2025. So nobody touched that. We're bringing back duct tails every day. I'm mailing that to myself right now. I heard it here first. Can't touch it. I think it was crazy about that timeline too. And I'm sure we'll get to this in your notes, but they made an E3 demo. It wasn't just that they got the game ready and packaged up for holidays. They had it ready for people to play just a few months after that. So I can do even better. They had a prototype of the game that they were playing in their office in like a couple of weeks. And it's because all this stuff is so tied together, right? There actually is frequency technology in guitar hero and there's amplitude technology in guitar hero. And Harmonix had made all of these deals where it would make the games for other companies, but it would keep the sort of core technology for itself. And so it just poured all of that into this game. And it basically, the way they all described it is like without those deals that it had made not thinking about guitar hero, none of this would have been possible. They couldn't have done it this fast. They couldn't have done it this way, but it was just all this, they had all this stuff sitting there and they were just able to like recompile it and have a game working really quickly. See how like development works. You like companies just like do shit that they're good at. See how that works? And they knocked us out and I would hate to see like that crunch condition was probably awful, but just the idea, like it's almost verboten now to hear about like, you know, a company taking stuff that they've done from other places and pouring it into this game and they can make this different version of those same ideas so quickly and have it be do so well. You just, it doesn't happen in modern video game development anymore unless like you're a very big, like indie studio or something like that, it just doesn't happen. It's not just the soundtrack in the haircut to make this feel 20 years old. Maybe some of that deal structure also making it feel 20 years old. And then the thing that, well, okay, we'll see that. Yeah, that's for another time. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure guitar hero gets done quite the same way in 2025 as it did in 2005. But so anyway, so they get this done really fast. The other thing, it seems like this company had going for it was that it was like a company full of musicians. I think I didn't know that guitar hero until I started researching for this episode is that a lot of the songs in the first guitar hero are from harmonics employees. And who are like legit bands? I had no idea. I remember their head of marketing publicity, John Drake, John Drake, what up? Play the show and fill it at some point. I went to go see him. He was like a musician in a band playing shows. And yeah, I think that was true all the way down to the folks on the marketing side of the house. Yeah, apparently like two thirds of the employees there were in some band or another. And a bunch of the songs in there are from them. Most of the songs are just like songs that they liked. They ended up instead of getting the actual versions of a lot of the songs, paying this band to do covers, which was much cheaper for very unnecessary to go into licensing reasons. But they were able to get this list of songs that everybody knew, but that they definitely couldn't afford. What was funny is I went back and was doing a bunch of research on this and a surprising number of people on that team have no memory of the first songs in guitar hero. Everybody agreed that like walk this way by Aerosmith and back in black by ACDC were like iconic ones. But then they would be like, oh yeah, what were your favorite songs from the first guitar hero? Like what were the first ones you guys decided on? And they're like, I don't know. And there would be people who like disagreed on which song was the first one to show up. But everybody said back in black was like the first like iconic guitar hero song as they were. I don't even remember that song. I have no, I just completely skipped over that to go to Ozzy Huff's part. She wasn't hard enough for you. I get it. So then they get through all this, they're cranking like crazy towards fall of 2005 and E3 like you're saying, Chris, was like the coming out party for this game. Were you at E3 in 2005? 2005 I was not at E3. I have a lot of memories of the 2006 E3 showing for guitar hero, but 2005 E3 was like a big deal E3. Maybe one of the last like really major E3s, I mean, in case ever. And one of the stories that to this day you ask any games journalists about 2005 E3, the thing that will come to their mind first before any of that is Ken Chahal in the basement with the weird carpet and the smell and guitar hero. Ken Chahal is the place where you put the international pavilions, your German game developers, there's a bar down there, which just gives you some of that energy at that place. The weirdo controllers, there's some that like, you know, the weird 3D mouse controller stuff, like all this junk stuff all went to the basement, the security networking software for the games industry in the basement and red octane with guitar hero. And it became and everything you write, read about it. People played it and would go tell everyone else to come play it and then people would come and watch people play it. Yeah, so as I understand it, that was like, that was when that game became sort of real. That was the moment. Yeah, and it was like, because like we were saying with all these rhythm games, the thing is, you like describe to somebody, oh, you stand and play guitar in front of your television and it does the buttons for you. It's like, it doesn't sound good. And they were apparently actually having trouble explaining to like possible buyers and distributors and whoever how this game actually worked and why it was fun, because there was nothing like it. But then like you're saying at E3, it starts to, it starts to percolate and it's like the thing everybody's talking about. And it's the moment and so all the harmonics folks and the red octane folks have, have long said that that was the moment that they were like, oh my god, we have something. Like we don't know what, but it's something and we have it. And there was one other moment and it involves, I assume you're sworn enemy of game journalism, IGN. The world friends here. The folks, I'm just kidding. One other thing that they've said is there was IGN made a video that year playing the game. And it was one of the first like public demos from a big name game publication showing the game and they loved it and they had apparently been, they like sent them a guitar hero set, unprompted and then like begged them to play it over and over and over again. Which is interesting as I suspect we've all had. For somebody's like, please try my thing, you'll love it. And you're like, I have other things to do and I've never heard of you and who, what is this? And they're like, please, I beg you. I have to imagine at the time too, IGN, along with GameSpot, were the only two kind of huge major sites. There was UGO and there were some other ones at the same time, but like IGN and GameSpot at the time were massive. And I think getting that coverage and that attention there and a pre-social media era was it. Yeah, you're not going to get it. Maybe a magazine later on a slower publishing timeline. Totally. So let me just play you a little bit of IGN's video in which they have an extremely second time. How much is that damage is this going to do me as a video games journalist? We're going to find out. I'm on the... Look, Tal. Wow. There's IGN's Talblevins shredding in a white cloak, a cape, called a cape, I guess. Let's see how they're doing. There are two people and one of them doesn't appear to be playing at all. They're busy shredding. Wow, it's very 2005. Yeah. And they're having a great time. That's the jam. But so that video, that extremely 2005 video, a bunch of people who made guitar here are like that's the time we went from something a few people had heard of to like a game people were excited about. This is before the game is available. They got an early demo of it. It was live. It was public. They were super excited about it. And they were like all of a sudden that drops and everything changes. They're like people starting your phone calls, people start caring, people start actually wanting this game in their lives, which is not because that video is deeply hilarious. You got to channel it through your 2005 energy brain. I love it. I have no notes. We should wear more capes. We should all be wearing capes right now as we do this, honestly. I agree. Like an ironic one. Hey guys, let's do some capes and posts. All right, thank you. Thanks. This is why we green screen everything. This is totally fine. One other thing that I found was that one of red octane's biggest worries with this game and one of the things that they were struggling with at the very beginning was that the game was humongous. Like I have the controller here behind me. It's like it's a big guitar. Well, the good news is retailers love huge boxes and they love making shelf space. So this is what seems they were like genuinely worried about it. It was expensive. It was 70 bucks for the whole kit, which now sounds just adorable. It was a big deal that I was able to get this. Yeah. My dad who had like the super high powered six figure job, he was the one who bought it for me because he was the only one who could afford something, a $70 video game, or you high? Yeah, back then that was nuts. You got the game and the controller for a 70 bucks. You got the game and the control. Just thinking about that now, 2025 brain. It's just like my. The console doesn't love it. It would be $200. That's a dozen eggs today. So but this was their big worry and they had trouble getting people to buy it because they're like, well, we can either stock your game, which no one's ever heard of and maybe nobody wants, or we can put like 20 discs of other things on the shelf. And they ended up just getting best buy. And in particular, like one buyer at Best Buy was super into it. They said yes, they set up demo stations in the stores. And this was like, this was the thing that they were like, we're gonna get people to try it and buy it and they're gonna love it. And spoiler alert, they did. But before we get into that, we should take a really quick break. And then we're gonna talk about what happened when it launched and then what happened afterwards. We'll be right back. Support for the show comes from public, the investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can build a multi-asset portfolio of stock spawns and options. 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Okay, we're back. So you guys would remember this more than I would. I was way too cool to play video games in 2005. But what were you doing in 2005? What was I doing in 2005? Let's get into it. I was the fourth best player on my JV volleyball team right about when this launched. So that was cool. Yeah, no time. People really liked that. I was also very into American Idol at the time. This is like peak David American Idol season. It was great. This is as good as it got. How are you? Good. Well, that might have been right after the double popped polo phase, but it wasn't. Oh, I was right there, but it wasn't. This was well after Pukas, but not far enough. Okay. I was what I was doing great. I was trying to get a mental picture for the listeners at home. I'm trying to, you know, yeah, put us in the place. You were the best like the big Jinco pants because you weren't in high school at this time. No, no, no. The skate kids had that in the 90s, but I was 2005 for me was was pair of car hearts in a white t-shirt. That was it. That was the uniform. That's the dream. That would work. How's he going to say it turns out you had it going. So this game drops Christmas season 2005. And at least from what I can tell looking back, it was a pretty much a giant hit right away. Do you guys remember when it came out? You got it pretty quickly. It seems like I think I got mine. I had to have gotten it after my PlayStation 2 because that's what I played it on. And it was, I didn't get that at launch. It probably was around like 2007. Because I got a PlayStation 2 specifically for Kingdom Hearts and I think that was 2006. So I didn't, I don't think I got a guitar here until like 2000. I love this is a way to remember the years of your life. I'm like I got game launches and that's that's what I do. Yeah, everything for me is like, oh, that was the earth. The tomb came out. So I wear was I have to know I got it. That's right. I can tell you the story about Kingdom Hearts 2 because I was in college and I remember going down to the college. King's hold on hard mode. Can you tell us the story in Kingdom Hearts 2? Yes. Oh, no, that's good. I don't know how to tie it up this podcast. I can't call you the story. Sicko mode. Let's do it. Listen, for bonus episode, Ash is going to spend four hours explaining Kingdom Hearts 2 to you. Just two, not all of them. Just two. Just two. I was I was the nerd that was like watching that IGN video and like getting that pre-order in early and like picking it up. I was that was what I, you know, before I was doing it full time for a living. That was my, those were my friends. Just my PlayStation. I love this free. They were my friends. Yeah. So the story is that the harmonics in Red Octane had made 100,000 to these and this thing immediately becomes like a phenomenon. Everybody wants it. They can't sell them fast enough. Everybody wants 10 dollars as many as they have. It ended up being the second best selling game of that holiday season, which for a game that never existed before is and was that expensive at the time. Just strikes me as nuts. What was the first? This was my trivia question. What do you think the number one game of the holiday season of 2005 was? Halo two. I'm going to say this is like a video game version of prices right rules. I'm just going to say madden. It was madden. Madden's kind of a boring answer. I know, but that's why it's like what you bet a dollar. You know, it's like a boring answer. Yeah. But you can get it right a lot of times. That's true. Madden, which I assume in 2005 was the exact same game that it is in 2025. I haven't changed it yet. No, that's just what we're doing here. But so this game comes out. People really love it. I have a montage here of some of the reviews that I would like you to see because they are a delight. Have you ever secretly dreamed of being a rock star wailing on your electric guitar to the sold out crowd? What's the game you've spent the most time playing this year? Guitar here. John Davis in there. There's ever to grace the market. That's still what I'd say. I haven't put long plastic guitar. Guitar hero stands out as one of the top PS2 games released in the past year. It's really addicted, really exciting. And I wrote it. It was Jeff Grossman and Keens. Guitar hero won't make you play a real guitar like a rock star. It certainly makes you feel like one four or five out of five. Just flexing, mind calling out people by name. Well, I'm just sitting there for the old heads in the house who were watching all the same stuff. They were kids. I think Gartsman, you almost have to salute. So it was like people loved it. It was like overwhelmingly the thing where once people try it, they love it. Continued to be a thing. Just like the other harmonics games, critical hit. Yeah. But now also commercial hit. Right. You know, some of that magic coming together. And it does seem like the biggest difference between a lot of that was just the guitar. And I think one of the things I thought was really interesting about the way that they made this controller was that they wanted to have a guitar that actually felt like playing guitar, which is like it did and it didn't work. You know what I mean? Playing earlier and like I play that a lot better than I play guitar. And I don't play that very well. But they based this thing on a Gibson SG, which means nothing to me, but certainly will mean some things to other people. And the thing that they took from guitar freaks was the idea of like sort of the rough shape of the thing. But then they made it a lot more complicated. It has five buttons. So you can play, I think it's three different power chords that actually feel like you're playing the power chords, which is basically all you need to be a rock star. They had the whammy bar, which fun fact I learned they added before they had any idea what it was going to be for. They were just like, this thing should have a whammy bar. And they're like, why? And they're like, I don't know. It's gonna have a whammy bar. Let's take the energy into everything we do in life. Yeah, right? Like where can we add a whammy bar? We're gonna find these for you. Yeah, that's a good like newsroom question. Where's the whammy bar? And then they also, I think I learned was they, in the name of making this feel like you're playing guitar, they had a freestyle mode for this, where you could just play guitar in the game and actually make stuff creatively, end up not making it into the game, but it's like a very harmonics thing to do. We're like all the way back to the acts that people just want to play. But I'm just glad I told it. They did that because one of the challenges of frustrations of guitar here, I was when you're playing, especially if you're playing two-ply or your friends over, et cetera, like having failing out is like a bummer when you're just trying to drink video games. And I think later they did add some of those modes back into future iterations of this game, but yeah, it's interesting to hear that they did it. But it's too bad they didn't get to it. They had nine whole months. It's not quite sure why they didn't get to it, but whatever. It's plenty of time. I mean, the entire ethos, I guess, behind this game is that they wanted non-musicians to feel like a musician. And you can get about as close as you can get without actually being a musician with guitar hero. Like I play this saxophone, but I'm not like a guitar person, but I feel, it feels very good, even though it's not like, as you were saying earlier, it's not exactly a one-for-one replication of actually playing a guitar. It's just close enough that I don't care. And it feels good. Like it's a very tactile thing. I'm gonna go ahead and say as a non-guitar player, it feels a lot better than playing a guitar. It also is like, it's hard in a way that I think is really good and productive and instructive in a lot of these games, right? Like I think one of the things that you encounter with a lot of these games is you sort of max out at how actually complicated the mechanic is. And then you have to invent new ways. You're like, okay, I'm gonna do it at weird speeds. I'm gonna do it with my eyes closed or whatever. This game is like the runway for how much better you could get at it was super, super long. Well, interestingly, another thing launched in 2005, which has a very close alignment to guitar hero's success, which is YouTube. And people being able to record themselves and put up these crazy high scores, these crazy stunt videos, as a video game blogger in 2005, 2006, et cetera. Crazy guitar hero videos was a staple of the genre, staple of the form like just somebody doing something sick, in the same way you'd post a video, something like a high score on geometry words. It was just novel seeing human beings do things that are hard. And a lot of video games are, when you see this later in like esports and stuff, it's hard to communicate excellence in a video game. It's hard to communicate excellence in legal legends. Like what are they doing? They went down that lane. I'm sure, okay. It's like why a layperson doesn't watch competitive chess and have a good time. It's hard. You can watch guitar hero and speck ash. That's good. That's really hard. It's going very fast and they're hitting all the buttons. So that has the buttons on time. So this is a quality of it. And the same way a slam dunk looks impressive. I cannot do that. He jumped good. And like, seeing somebody play guitar here are good. It's just impressive to watch as a human. And I think a lot about that sense of like the game itself encourages you the player to improve. And you know when you have, it's like very clear when you've improved enough. And not all games do that. All the games you improve when your character levels up. And that is how you get better because you've played long enough. But there's a real meaningful tangible reward to playing more guitar hero. And the interesting and the very cool thing about that is that you can look at those videos of these like high level players and you're impressed, but you can also, there's a very clear way that you yourself can do that. That was when I was like playing guitar here, I was trying to make it my thing. I would graduate. Like I can't do like the pinky with the orange button and like part of like my training. Like that I developed this training course for me. It was like learning how to like slide my hand up and down. You can't see me. I'm like sliding my hand up and down the front. You also can't see. She's got like a rocky style montage outfit on. She's actually playing. She's still playing out. I don't know how that's even possible. Yeah. To slide, you know, your hand down so you're pinking and get at that button. And when I was able to do that, like reliably, like you feel like God, like, oh, okay. There's a gulf between, you know, looking at someone play Halo at a very high level and think I could do that. And it's not the same. And I could look at that of guitar here. And I'm like, oh, I can actually do that. And that was like part of why guitar hero was so big for me personally. And like why it is so fun. Even all these years later, just to watch. Presumably also why I named my profile on that memory card God. Because it's just like, you feel like God. Yeah, I got real good at it. So they made this first game in nine months and then all of a sudden, the next year in 2006, everything goes insane. And Chris, I want you to explain this to me because I spent a lot of time researching how, so harmonics sells to Viacom in 2006. Red Octane sells to Activision also in 2006. And this whole thing just sets off like a house on fire. This is in some ways like early Activision deal making. Activision is a relatively, let's say small, but more humble publisher than the one that you think of today in that earlier period, they had a bunch of hits. They had Tony Hawk on PlayStation, et cetera. But they published guitar hero along with Red Octane and had the spicy series, but they bought Red Octane. So they bought the peripheral. They bought the hardware company and they bought the brand name guitar hero. Like we mentioned before, harmonics owns the software on the game. And so harmonics gets purchased by Viacom are more specifically a new imprint called MTV Games. So I want to Steven Tutil. And this is, I remember there was an ethical question over whether Steven, for example, at MTV News, like how do you cover the game at MTV? And he's like, it's different. It's like not the same. It's a big company. But the alignment there was kind of wild and the timeline that we're talking about. Again, 2005, guitar hero one comes out. 2006, guitar hero two comes out. It comes out for PlayStation 2 and Xbox 360. And then 2007, rock band and guitar hero three come out. And so by 2007, the pace of that is just wild. Balkers, like both of these companies sell. And like I'm used to a lot of acquisitions where like a company sort of disappears in languages and everything falls apart. But it seems like basically both of these companies showed up to work at their new giant corporate parents. And they were like, you have a new game do in 12 minutes. So you have the originators of the gameplay, harmonics making rock band critical hit. That was the one that I think, you know, the nerds really appreciated it brought everything together. But then you had guitar hero, which had the brand name. It had at this point the marketing muscle behind it. And it went on to be a massive sales hit. And I think that was the first retail game in history to crack. 1B, that's what we call the biz $1 billion. So you had these like two competitors. One, you know, that's still had the brand name and still had the sort of retail weight and then you had the critical darling. And it set up a really great competitive set. I refused on principle to play rock band because I had like guitar hero loyalty and rock band was like the knockoff. And now knowing what I know, it's actually the exact opposite. Yeah. The soul of guitar hero lived on in rock band. I had no brand loyalty at that point. That was purely a commercial decision. Like, oh, you want me to spend however much money to buy like this entire kit? Absolutely not. We're just going to stick with our PlayStation 2 and our three rock band games. I was a snob. I went to, in 2007, I mentioned E3 changed. 2006 was the last like E3 of that kind. 2007, they downsize. They went to this smaller media only event in Santa Monica where you went from like hotel to hotel. That was the year. It was terrible. And rock band debuted at a invite only hotel event. And I remember just being so excited to go in and we went in. I still remember to the stay Nick Chester, who at the time was editor at Destructoid, another publication later went on to work with harmonics. Now he's at Anna Perna, I think Nick. Where are you Anna Perna? He crushed at it. He was really like, he's good. And every other year for years, when there's a lot of rock band events, you'd go and see Nick at them. And he'd shred in New York, okay. It's a weird party. It's a great party. It is so specific. Like, you know, what is the worst super power that you can have? Like, that is a fantastic party. Like, it really is. He was like a rock band influencer. You know, he knew the play the game. He was good at it. But I remember just like seeing that performance, walking into that room. I remember exactly, it looked like I walked into the dimly lit. This is the basement living room. No, this is this is the suite. It's a fancy suite at hotel in Santa Monica. And they had the drums set up and they had a TV in front of them. And there's just like 20 people just watching these journals play rock band. And it was like one of these really indelible memories for me. It's like a big shift, right? The competitive audacity to launch a rock band against guitar here as free from the original developers with a full set with singing, karaoke revolution style, they had all the pieces. And they quite little mic drop. Yep. And they had another fun thing about rock band is they had the masters. It wasn't just covers. They had this MTV relationship and they were able to leverage that. And so, you know, guitar here was three outsold it because it was cheaper. And it was the brand name. But there was this new really intense and very well earned competitive landscape that just didn't exist before. And it made that launch 2007 everything that came after that. It was like really exciting. It was its own little console war, if you will. Yeah, it just continues to be wild to me how quickly all of that happened. And then they start making like several of them a year. These things just started coming out in like crazy absurd rapid succession. And to your point about the masters, one of the things I thought was really interesting was that these games wound up being sort of crushed by their own success in a way. Because like at the very beginning, either nobody cared about guitar hero and didn't want their stuff because they just didn't want to like negotiate the deal for the song or they were able to get it pretty cheap because artists were like, well, whatever, who is this game will take some money. Sure. The amount of money you made off of video game licensing before that was nothing. So, right. Exactly. But then as it gets bigger, all of a sudden, getting in a guitar hero game becomes a huge win for you as an artist. In the same way that it's like the modern equivalent is probably like the Fleetwood Mac song blowing up on TikTok, right? And it's like all of a sudden these songs from 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago are zooming up the charts because of this one very specific property. And for a long time, it was guitar hero that was like, if you were there, like you and your cool jazz music, right? Like you people were picking up guitar hero and being exposed to completely new kinds of music that they then like cared about for a long time. So then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, well, A, we want to be on this game very badly. But B, we would like a piece, right? Especially as guitar hero 3 comes out and sells a billion dollars, and becomes huge. They're like, well, a huge part of the appeal of this is our songs. This doesn't work without the music that everybody likes. Which I think is an interesting, like, it would have been interesting to see them go all the way down the road of, this is music no one knows, would the game still have worked? I don't know. But then it becomes a problem because they have to spend all of this money on their songs, eventually like the image and likeness of the people that they wanted to have. And so the bigger the game gets, the more expensive the game gets. And it starts to sort of collapse on itself in a certain way, especially as the game starts to get a little less popular, which happened really fast. Like the whole guitar hero era was like five years, which is bonkers to me. They split into two companies. They made a thousand more games. A run it into the ground five years. Yeah, five years. Like by 2010, they've both guitar hero, let's see, the number I have is by the end of 2010, guitar hero had sold $2.47 billion worth of games. And rock band was 1.2 billion. This is by 2010. Meanwhile, at this point, Call of Duty is doing a billion dollars a year. So do it without a too well. But these games are like huge. And then it just fell off a cliff because people, everybody who wanted guitar hero, I guess, had it. Like it was very funny playing the first one again today. Because I'm like, oh, this game still rips. Like I don't play this one. And I'm like, you know what I want now is guitar hero too. It's just like, it's like, oh, no, I have guitar hero now. Like I'm good. It reminds me of the Wii and Wii Fit to some degree. Guitar hero was very, very popular with people who are not video game players. My partner, to this day, I live in a house. And when it's seen me on a meat call, I live in a house with a home office full of video games and video game junk. My partner plays one game. One thing, it's guitar hero, guitar hero or a slash rock band. That's it. And I would break it out. We broke it out recently a few months ago. And prepped for this. And my son has friends over and they play Beatles rock band. And they have a great time. Like it's just universally appealing. You can put it in front of anyone and they enjoy it. And they get it. And they get it right away. And the game was a big hit with people that weren't gamers. But it also means it's easy to put down. This is not the thing you keep coming back to. It's big. It's in your living room. They used to sell furniture to keep your rock band kit in an autumn. And it slipped up that you could store all your stuff. And everything was so big. Folks in the chat, hit me up with that link to that. He's a furniture. That's got to be on Facebook Marketplace somewhere. Well, even then, there was a time when getting a whole rock band kit was on pre-faceware marketplace Craigslist for $1. People were just getting rid of this stuff. And it was so easy to get. And then five years later, you're like, oh, should I need that? Oh, it's expensive now. And it's hard to get. I used to work at FYE, which for younger kids used to be a CD store. And I'll come again. What's her? FLA. Exactly. And we sold video games. We were one of the rare FYEs that sold video games. This is in Tower City and Cleveland. To your point about the Wii and this crossover appeal is we had guitar hero controllers. And the number one guitar hero controller that people would ask for whenever they would come and buy stuff was the one for the Wii. Because that's what they wanted. When we would get them in, and they would disappear like that. Because that's what people want. Even now, you go to like, I don't know if they have that around here, but like the exchange, which is one of those like secondhand places. They always have a guitar hero controller. People are always buying them. They're always there. They're always like more than what you would expect to pay for them. One of the things that we wanted to do for our wedding, we got married in our backyard. It was we tried to put together a rock band set. And that would be like wedding entertainment for people to just like pick up. That's such a good idea. Yeah, we weren't able to make it work. But like for months and months and months up to the lead up, like my husband would go down to the basement and hook up his PlayStation. Three and you can hear him. Tapping on the drums for rock band. Because it's excellent cardio. And it's fun. It still works. It's very hard to find a game like that that's still like you can just put it down in front of anybody and they immediately get it. And it still feels the way that it did 20 years ago. I rock band drum set still the same one I got in 2007. I have a piece of diamond plated metal cut to the foot pedal. Because the pedal used to snap in half. I got that fixed. And then I put they saw these sound dampening pads that you'd put on the pads. It was actually very loud. And you just play it. And so you put those on to make it quiet. And then I still use I at one point my proudest moments. I caught a drumstick from Quest Love from the roots. And it has like a little signature on it. So I have two drums, but one of them is my little Quest Love drumstick. Still my drumstick I use for rock band. That's awesome. Yeah. It's a good set up. Come hang out. Quest Love. If you're watching, I know you are. Get at us. We're on the game or two. Yeah, I'm a silly Quest. I will. Well, hang out. Love this. So we're basically the end of the guitar here. Story now, which is kind of wild. Harmonix went on to make a game called Dance Central, which is a connect game. Because harmonics can't help itself. Some part of this is also the physicality that's going on here, right? It's the Wii. The physicality Wii Sports. It's guitar here and the physicality of guitar here. And then Microsoft's like, oh, physicality. We need some of that. We'll do connect. And that didn't. It wasn't. It didn't quite go how they thought. And then they went all in on Xbox One. And that's all she wrote. But yeah, Dance Central. Dance Central by most accounts too. Wasn't my cup of tea. But it did okay. And people liked it. It was again critically acclaimed. Yeah. Yeah. And then Rock Band lived on a while. Got onto some next gen consoles. Guitar hero. Everybody kind of soured on after a while. I think it became such a like obvious money grab that everybody just kind of gave up. They gave up. The thing I didn't know is the coded to this story. Harmonix got acquired by Epic Games and is now part of Fortnite. Yes. Fortnite Festival there. Which is actually like a perfect ending that I had no idea had ever happened. It's kind of like a very good happily ever after. Kind of because that game still lives on. Yeah. And you can still play it. And you can still get new controllers that work with your computer and play it. Can you still buy a guitar for Fortnite Festival? Yes. They do exist. All that makes me happy. Rift Master. My favorite part of Fortnite Festival is I can now get Sabrina Carpenter to play music in for an festival where I can also have her kill fools in Battle Royale. And that's just dope. I got her going to me to Kill and Fools. I got Sabrina Carpenter Kill and Fools. I feel like if you've ever wanted a perfect encapsulation of where games have gone in 20 years, it's that sentence that you just said. Sabrina Carpenter killing fool. Sabrina Carpenter shredding and killing fools. Yeah. 2025. I got Billy Aish, he came to me and Sabrina Carpenter on my squad. We're going to roll out on you. With Ariana Grande and the Brown James. Watch out. First of all, it's a sick rock band lineup. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, it's good stuff. All right, we need to take one more break and then we're going to come back and we have the version history questions. Security program on spreadsheets, new regulations piling up, an audit thread. It's time for Vanta. Vanta automates security and compliance, brings evidence into one place and cuts audit prep by 82%. Less manual work, clear visibility, faster deals, zero chaos. Call it compliance or call it calm clients. Get it? Join the 15,000 companies using Vanta to prove trust. Go to vant.com slash com. Support for this show comes from Indeed. If you're looking to hire top-tier talent with expertise in your field, Indeed says they can help. Indeed, sponsored jobs gives your job the best chance at standing out and grants you access to quality candidates who can drive the results you need. Spend more time interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results, now with Indeed sponsored jobs. And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at Indeed.com slash Fox Business. Just go to Indeed.com slash Fox Business right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash Fox Business. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, do it the right way, with Indeed. All right, we're back. So in every episode, we have eight questions that we try to answer about every single product that we talk about on a show. The first question is what was the best thing about the very first guitar hero? Chris, what do you think? I'm going to go ahead and say the thing that was true before Guitar Hero and the thing that was true to some of your after Guitar Hero, which was the game itself. Right, just the rhythm gameplay itself was adaptable. It worked in these different formats. It worked with different instruments. The guitars, the thing that got people to pick it up. But when people played frequency and amplitude, they liked them. They just didn't pick them up. And so the guitar got them to pick it up at the game itself was the best thing there. Okay. I like the physicalness of it. I like the different kinds of genres of music like encapsulates like across like several decades. Like you've got, I don't know, I can't even think of the cello stuff with my head. But just that smattering of different music tracks from different genres like definitely opened my eyes to the possibilities. And I really appreciate that. I like it. I'm going to go more niche, which is that I think the real-time audience feedback was amazing. And it's still like an underrated thing that you don't get enough of in 80 games anymore. Like when it booze, it feels bad. Yeah. It's like it is like genuinely upsetting when you're playing. I just used to be in the crowds or doing it me all the time anyway. So I'm just used to walking down the street and boo that it's just your day to day. I'm feeling sorry. All right. Question number two, what was the worst thing about the first guitar hero? Well, I was going to say the worst thing about guitar hero was when Activision came in and bought Red Octane. Which I guess technically works. I guess that's true. That was technically in the lifecycle of the first guitar hero. All right. I wasn't going to allow it, but I'll allow it. I'm going to go ahead and say, I can't remember 2005 and what it felt like the time of like limitless opportunity and possibility. The future was bright and wide open. We probably had a lot of positive feelings about the world. Oh, I can't imagine. That was your graduated high school. So yeah, that was all said. It was in my commencement speech and then 2008 happens. And imagine what a commencement speech is like today. Everyone's a good luck out there. See you. Bye. Bye. Bye. So I'm going to go ahead and say the price tag. I think again, the limitless pocketbooks of 2005, we all apparently had money and interest rates were low. I guess I don't know. But that price tag, I'm sure was impediment for the people who could afford it, you know, could have been less. Hansi 2020, I know, I know, I know, but $70 and you got the controller and the cake. I know. Yeah, but gas was 50 cents or something. I don't know. Goodbye, I hope for a nickel. Yeah. You skimped it out of here. No, that's what's fun. I think both of those things are true, right? In retrospect, it was very expensive and it was a big swing to be as expensive as it was, but we also look back and it's like, oh, were they adorable for thinking that was expensive? I know. This is blessed their hearts. I think the worst thing, and this is this is somewhat controversial, and I might get in trouble for saying this, but the music library on the first one was not for me, especially because again, this is American Idol watching recently Puka wearing David Pierce in 2005. The ACDC time. This was not nearly poppy enough for my taste. This was like the music that I listened to when my friends were in the car because I wanted to impress them. This was not the music that I listened to by myself in the car, which was like, did I know all five parts to the in-sync song, Terran at my heart, and could sing any of the harmonies on demand I did? And I could. That's the music I wanted to guitar here. Ladies and gentlemen, David Pierce. And I eventually got some of that stuff, right? And I was like, the thing I liked, actually, I think I might have been the only person who liked the like artist specific ones that came out eventually because some of those were just sort of closer to my zone. This was just, I wasn't cool enough to like rock music enough to really get into this game. Have you talked to your therapist? No, I honestly, that felt really good to say. I'm not gonna lie to you. I appreciate you guys being here for this. My claim to fame is at some later point when DLC happened in rock band, the theme song for the podcast I used to host, the joystick podcast made its way to the DLC. That's cool. So, rip joystick podcast. That's a claim to fame right there. I like that. All right, question number three. Would it have been a bigger hit if Apple made it? No. Part of the reason why I guitar hero occupies the space that it does is because it's really grimy. It's not polished. Apple would have over engineered the hell out of this. It would have, we've got, like all light, seriously heavy guitars that you could not like lift. It would have been so expensive. Yeah, it would have been really... You think 70 bucks is expensive. Particularly expensive. It would have been one button. Because you know, can't have that's too many buttons. And it says guitar. And you just press the button. That pair down, stripped down, like, funkiness of it, like still works. Like it's good to have like an older game that with all that you can see the edges of it and the edges are actually really good. I totally agree. And especially the first one is like, it's such a weird sort of bizarre game. And like all the names are inside jokes. There's a human footprint or fingerprint in that game that would have been completely erased if Apple had done it because nobody human works at Apple. I'm sorry. All right, next question. What feature of this thing should every current version have? Oh, okay. So the thing that I would go back in time and change about this is I would steer Bobby Cotec away and like tell him to go do more money ball stuff and be like a baseball financier instead of getting to video games. I had a feeling that was gonna be the answer. Do you think that there was like a much longer life for something like guitar hero otherwise? Absolutely. You think is my only counter that would be the like I already own guitar hero maybe I don't need to get. Like maybe there just was a ceiling in the same way that like everybody who's gonna buy a peloton already bought a peloton and that kind of screwed peloton. Like I think we could have gotten more out of it if we didn't oversaturate the market as fast as we did. Probably true. You know, you've got all these different versions like Beatles Rock Band and like guitar hero, Aero Smith. And you know all that kind of stuff like we didn't need all that. Like give them time to space it out. Maybe develop more innovations for their controller or do something like give them time to cook a little bit instead of just like serving meal after meal after meal after meal and eventually we're full of me can't eat anymore. Yeah, I think time and not saturated work it would have saved this game a little bit and we would have had it for a little bit longer. I don't think it would have maybe become like a call of duty kind of deal where you know we need one every year or we need one so often. But and it's okay to let video games like die. Essentially like we had a good run. I think five years was too short for this run. That's fair. I'll give you that. I'm gonna argue a counterprice at it and then I'll give you my reason. But I think that to some degree they had this window just like the way where a bunch of people bought it. They bought the big controllers, the big drum sets. And there's a limited period of time before they put that on Craigslist or they put it in a garage sale. And so you've got, you know, your aunt Linda has the whole set up and she liked it when you're like, it's she's not gonna keep it forever. It's not gonna go in the basement. And when I break out my set, the number of people who are like, oh man, I used to have it. Nobody has anymore. Everyone got rid of it. Nobody keeps it in the basement. I'm just a sicko. First of all, if I'm going back in time and I can redo it all, I'm gonna buy a lot of tickets. I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring back a sports book. Gonna just put a dollar in the high yield savings account et cetera, et cetera. So I'm gonna do that all at first. That's good. Put some money in the Panama account too. If I'm, so am I a red octane or harmonics, am I? Interesting. You're, I'm gonna, you're the CEO of harmonics. Okay, let me get your harmonics. This is your own adventure. This is the walking dead. So you have to get a branch and pass. Ash is right. If you're a red octane, you're even two thousand five. You get to choose. If I'm red octane, I buy harmonics. Mm, okay. That was a big booboo. That's a little bit of a mistake. Just split up. Does it put the party? I buy harmonics. I make them, you know, I buy merch, right? Just straight up some structure, which that those two things stay together. So I make you one thing. And then in terms of like the saturation, you have a little bit less of a saturation problem with one major product that is sort of excellent, set up two excellent products. If I'm harmonics, that's a little trickier. I mean, maybe I would, maybe same answer, but I would propose a merger. I would propose some kind of, you know, don't just pay us to do this contract work for hire. Give us a piece of the pudding. And we'll keep doing it with you and see how that works out. Okay, so you also think that in theory, there could have been a bigger, longer guitar hero history than we got. I think that part of that history has to account for having a second marketplace player that was in its own right excellent, making a clearly duplicative product. In the right, that sense that there wasn't just one product that was actually in the market, but two, that's pretty hard to unwind. And who's to say that, you know, this harmonics red octane merger would continue to make rhythm games as like straight up, single as and stuff. We're starting to see now a lot of people incorporate rhythm games into other kinds of games. You got crypto the nectar, necrot answer specifically, though those kinds of games, we could have seen something like that come out of them much earlier than what we're getting now. And I think giving them the opportunity to have that runway and not just be ground down to the dirt would have been potentially, you know, good for gaming as a whole. It is an interesting sort of parallel universe in which you have like mainstream interest in rhythm games in the United States and a company with theoretically tons of resources that only cares about making rhythm games. That like it is probably true that is hugely unexplored territory. I mean, I even think about like dumb examples like supernatural, the fitness game for VR. It's like that game was huge and fun. It was a completely different use of that same mechanic. Like there's probably a lot of places you could play that. Yeah, yeah. The same thing with the same mechanic. Somebody made, there's mods on the PC version. Somebody made an incredible version. You can check it out home for the outer wild soundtrack from Beat Saber. That's incredible. But I was thinking about another thing, just to give Activision some credit here, they did try and find new parts of that market when the guitar and rock music part of the market died off. DJ Hero. DJ Hero. Oh, okay. DJ Hero's serious. I'm serious. No, DJ Hero's great. I mean, I think DJ Hero's great style games. Yeah, you both said that word, but you said it very differently. She's like, DJ Hero, my DJ Hero. DJ Hero. I got two DJ Hero turn tables in my office. It's a good game. DJ Hero 2's good too. The tracks are great. These great mashups they brought in great DJs. They did like really good work. That game was again a critical hit to not sell great. I think there was some attempt to like try and keep that party going and it didn't quite work out. And they rebooted it. Games again rebooted. Guitar Hero Live was called, I think, same developer, but... Your office must be enormous. You've described so many like 20 year old peripherals that no one cares about that I'm like at some point, you just have a, you know, a six story office. I got a virtual voice. I got a virtual voice. I got it all. Here's the thing. It's, it's not huge, but it's very dense. I'll give you a tour one day. It's great. All right. Next question. What feature of this thing should every current version have? And I will rephrase this one slightly for Guitar Hero, which is if you could borrow one, either piece of the game or mechanic or idea about Guitar Hero and shove it back into mainstream gaming in 2025, what would it be? Star power. Ooh. So we haven't talked about this through this entire podcast, but like part of Guitar Hero, if you've never played it, you can build up like this resource like Star Power and then you can deploy it to get like super high scores or whatever. You can also use it to come in and save you when you're failing. So I think modern games could do a lot with, I know there's this whole thing about get good and, you know, dark souls is game for adults or whatever. But exactly. And having some kind of mechanic like you are clearly sucking at this. And instead of like getting these pithy, like would you like to switch to a lower difficulty, like any of those patronizing messages, like there's something that you can deploy to make to save you, to make you better or to get you through like this difficult part. So it's like you're bad, but you did one sick thing. So you're back. Yeah, exactly. I love that. That's the dream. That's life. You just do one sick thing. We're so back. I'm waiting. Has it hit me yet? Any day now. It'll happen. Also Star Power. The fact that you could do it by tilting up the guitar is so cool. Very cool. Very well played. Transmary. I think. This is tricky, but I think the things for me that was really transformative about it again, something about the timeline with YouTube. I think there's still something here with live streaming and games and watching people beat Dark Souls bosses using guitar hero controllers and all this stuff. The idea of performance at the video game itself is performance, the tools that you use to play at our performance. And I think a lot about an essay that we published on polygon and about spalunky and live streaming and how spalunky's challenges were only solved by a community playing in parallel with each other, but they could only understand the complexity of the game by building upon what other people had already done. And so this idea of games that exist and augmented by distribution channels that are not the game YouTube or Twitch or whatever. And the physicality of it, that sense that you can see, actually tell, and somebody's better, and that you can share that. And that is not the game. It is this different asset, this different thing in a world where everything's connected through streaming and channels and distribution mechanics. It's strange to me that more games don't specifically build themselves to travel that way. So that would be my thought. I like that. Mine is just physical controllers. I just want more games specific items to hold. You say that, but you really know. You really know. My only reason for thinking that I do is playing Mario Kart with the actual wheel. Yeah. It is a delight. It is a delight. I don't know how far this idea goes. It's possible it goes right to there and nowhere else. And I also understand that what I'm asking is for a lot of expensive things that I want. I have the title drum master set for Switch. I have the office just keeps kidding. I have. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It's my partner who's not listening to this at all. I'm sorry. I've got the maracas up there from somebody. I mean, go. I've got all the dumps. If they make a dumb thing, I guess I have to have it. I cannot have it. I'm down. Just reboot duck hunt in 2025 and I will buy the thing again. I'm just saying. All right. Next question. Is there an alternate timeline in which this thing was more or even more successful? And I think I suspect the answer is the alternate timeline of these companies do not get acquired and Blake out. They acquire each other. They get to have that long life, longer life, hopefully. I would have just really liked to have seen them iterate on the idea of applying rhythm game fundamentals to different kinds of games. I think that's a really fun thing that we're doing now. And I wish we had more of that. So game developers, please, like incorporate rhythm stuff into your games because that's how you get me. I like it. Chris, anything else? I don't know. I think that the time at launch was really unique. Maybe a couple years earlier, it wouldn't have had the same opportunity. A couple years later, it's going to have. It launched on the PlayStation 2, which is launch at the tail end, right? Again, new console generation coming out. So it launched on a console that had a higher install base than any home console ever made before. And it just had a lot of things going for it. It really was like a little bit of the right people, the right place, the right time, and then a little bit of serendipity and cosmic kismet there. I can think of a lot of ways it would have gone worse, right? Like the size of that hit is hard to imagine. It's hard to replicate and it really hasn't happened again in that way. So I kind of am going to say that, you know, maybe again, sort of these counterfactuals of mergers, et cetera, that didn't happen. I think they really nailed it. They did 100% expert play on hard mode using their feet. They definitely have that vision that they executed on it. We want to make non musicians feel like a musician and feel like a rock star. And they nailed that really. They really did. And it's really hard and really rare to have like such a clear vision executed so perfectly. Yeah. Yeah. Which brings me to the next question. Especially in the video games. Could you reboot it now? Could we bring back guitar hero in 2025 and would it work? We do that. Like that thing exists. That's what Fortnite Festival is. It hasn't like, does that count? Like I genuinely, like I guess the the pro case for that would be that Fortnite is so huge that something inside of Fortnite is sufficiently huge to work. But I feel like a feature of Fortnite is just never going to be the thing that guitar hero was. I think if you think about Fortnite, and I'm going to channel my Tim Sweeney for you here. OK. OK, desktop, death Google, et cetera, et cetera. But Fortnite is a platform at this point. So Fortnite is a platform. If Roblox is a platform, and if you think about more as a platform, and what they're trying to do is incubate different games inside of this platform, there is Battle Royale. And that's our shorthand for Fortnite is. But I think what Epic would really want you to believe is that Rocket Racing is a part of that platform, and that Fortnite Festival is, it's not reflected in the player accounts, which are still playing Battle Royale. Sure. But I think there's a world in which like, are they on just me? Is there some future there? Is music and culture a part of Battle Royale? It is. And so how do you actually get the music and culture part out in gameplay that isn't about shooting people? That's where festival comes in. Have they nailed it? I think you could probably make a strong case. They have not nailed it. But I do think there is something there. I also think, and Ash, you could tell us about Clone here, like the community taking on games like this and making some of this themselves in a way that is not tied up with the vagaries of music licensing and the distribution platforms and channels. We have the music. We have our Spotify accounts. Like how do you just like hook up a guitar controller and play? And I think that's what's so cool about video games in general is that when the corporations step out, the community step in and the community for guitar hero has stepped up in a big way where you have Clone Hero, which is this game that you can download for free. You can get all kinds of tracks for it. Like tons, tons, tons of tracks. You can make your own tracks for it. It's plays on your computer. It will work with any kind of, you know, controller as long as you have an adapter and hook it up to your computer. And one of the things that I really like to do is I follow, you know, music creators and music game creators and watch them like do these super hard. Like this is not musical at all. It just exists to be as difficult as possible and just watching them do that. It's just fun. It's fun. I downloaded Clone Hero 2 for myself because there was a moment like a couple years ago. I think this was like on the tail end of like a social distancing. We're all in lockdown. Like, okay, I'm going to make Clone Hero my thing. Like I tried to do with guitar hero and just play it. And I don't have to worry about like, I don't know, DLC or get in my place. There's three to work or anything like that. It's just there on my computer and I did that for a little bit. And my husband will tell you like every day for like, you know, a couple of weeks, I would go and I would play the same like six songs over and over trying to like, well, you learn that muscle memory and it was good for a bit. Whatever it is after playing this game today, it was that like, I kind of don't want a 2025 version of guitar hero. I just want like that guitar hero again. Or I guess like a guitar hero with the songs that I like. But I, it did make me really like, I don't know that I want more from this game. I just kind of want the game back in my life again. I don't know if I'm going to be one of those people who forever regrets telling about Craigslist, but playing it again, I kind of regret telling him on Craigslist. What if it was an instinct edition? I mean, I would never have sold it on Craigslist. For me, one of the appeals of retro games is especially and it gets complicated with the 360. And if you bought games, you have to like restore your licenses to stuff. It's like a little janky. But when you go back to a PS2 and earlier like the complexity of even just talking about Fortnite, there's a platform like the simplicity of playing a game that just exists. You have it physically. It's on the disc. It's like a script of TV and it works. It is kind of wild in 2025 to have that experience where you're like, I plugged the thing and I haven't used it in a long time. And it works. Right. I don't have to update it. I don't have to download new things. I don't have to pay a subscription. I don't have to like remember a password. I just turn on the damn game and it plays. So my career all right here all all my time. My copy on that is two things. Kids don't know. Sometimes it doesn't work because you got the impoliteancy problem. You have to launch it. I brought my PlayStation Slim here to Slim because my PS2 fat, the disk drive doesn't work. There's temperamentally work sometimes. It was not going to work if I brought it on the train. You had to put it in the whole way. So like those old consoles, oftentimes just need a lot of attention. They aren't. They will not last forever without maintenance and support and the folks who do that maintenance and support. I'll show you if you're out there. It's not easy to find these folks. And so the internet community to Ashes Point takes over and starts to support this stuff. We do have a video game preservation problem. You can't go to your library and get this stuff easily to play an old game. It really is hard to access, which is sad. So I think that part of my enthusiasm for having a home office full of this bullshit. Can I say a bullshit on the podcast? Is that I know I can't just go get it somewhere else if I don't keep it? Yeah. I like that. So our last version history question. Does guitar here belong in the version history Hall of Fame? The rules for the Hall of Fame still influx, but I would say the general rubric is, was this thing at least unusually important in the history of technology? Like did this matter in some meaningful, specific way? And it has to, it doesn't even have to be good. It just has to matter. Does this thing matter enough to belong in the Hall of Fame? Yeah, I think, I mean, there's only going to be so many games that have this real confluence of hardware, software, culture, big moments, events, mergers, all those things that are part of the tech industry that are part of that amplified growth. It hits that in a way that breaks out of the normal niches of just video games and sort of transcends to some other larger cultural context. But it's also frivolous and silly and it doesn't matter. It is just fun and it didn't change the world in that same way. It's not an iPhone or whatever. It is a tricky one. It was so big and it burned so bright and then it died. And that's like what I would find like beautiful about it. That's the beauty. It doesn't have to be transformative in that other way. It just has to have been like fun and pleasant and well intentioned. I'm inclined to put it in just because I think it has like a damn near 100% approval rating as a thing. And I don't think there are that many things like that. I think it gets in for that reason. Yeah, I'm into it. All right, so the... It's official. This controller behind us, we're going to like hang it in the rafters or something until it all comes crashing down. All right, that is it for the show. Ash and Chris, thank you. This is so much fun. Appreciate you guys doing this with me. I appreciate the invite. As always, you can watch all of our episodes on YouTube. You can listen to them wherever you get podcasts. And if you want to support all of this and everything, the best thing you can do is subscribe to the verge, the verge.com. It's good website. We have journalism and websites and newsletters and podcasts like this one. Thank you for being here. We'll see you next time. Version history is produced by Victoria Barrios, River Branson, Owen Grove, Brandon Kiefer, Travis Larchuck, Eric Gomez, Andrew Moreno, and Alex Parkin. Video support from Chris Stretliff. Our theme music is composed by Brandon McFarland. Be sure to subscribe to the new version history podcast feed to get all of our new episodes as soon as they arrive.