153 | Matt Sayman's Journey from Baylor Basketball Scandal to Redemption

This is Becoming Undone. I just really wanted, I think, to go somewhere that I was wanted. And he told me that I was going to be one of the pillars of the Baylor basketball program. I mean, what kid doesn't want to hear that from a coach? And so on the way home from that visit, I told my mom that I want to go there. And I mean, tears just welling up in her eyes because she wanted that too. And it was a Friday afternoon. I just come in from playing sand volleyball out of Sterling. And so every day was pretty much in the summer, a little bit of class, weights and some basketball and then sand volleyball. And it was just such a sweet time living the dream. That's what I felt like I was doing. And one of my professors called and said, man, what's going on with your team? And I was like, huh, I don't know. Like what? I played with a lot of knuckleheads, I think is a nice way to put it over the years. And he said, no, you need to turn on the TV. They're talking about that their Baylor basketball players missing and a possible homicide and that Baylor basketball players might be involved. Like I get why Baylor and our media guys wanted me to do it because I was the only one that was a four year guy. And I think the only one that they trusted would say the right things. Because they needed somebody at that moment to be pro Baylor, pro the basketball program. We're excited about the future, but inside I was the exact opposite. Wanted to get out of there. Matt Saman here and I am undone. Hey, friend. I'm glad you're here. Welcome to yet another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Toby Brooks, a speaker, author, professor and performance scientist, has spent much the last two decades working as an athletic trainer and a strength coach in the professional collegiate and high school sports settings. And over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how failures that can suck in the moment can end up being exactly the push we needed to propel us along our path to success. Each week on Becoming Undone, I invite new guests to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. This episode is Baylor focused, but I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my role at Baylor University, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. You know, it is March Madness time. And sadly, the Baylor Bears didn't even make the tournament this year. Although as of this moment right now, my Arizona Wildcats are still looking pretty strong. Their last Final Four was in 2001 and they won it all in 97 the year before I got there for grad school and for work as an athletic trainer. For Baylor 2021 was the culmination of an incredible comeback story that you'll hear a bit more about in a minute, but it all got me thinking. You know, we love stories about championships. We love the confetti, the Nets getting cut down, the moments where everything comes together and makes sense. But what we don't see, what we rarely talk about is what comes before all of that. The part where it doesn't look like it's working. The part where it feels like it doesn't matter at all. The part where you're not even sure anyone's ever gonna remember anything you did. At all. Because long before Baylor Basketball became a national champion, it was something else entirely. It was broken. And for a small group of players who lived through that season in 2003-2004, there was no guarantee of what came next. No roadmap, no momentum. For a while, not even a coach. Just a decision. Show up anyway or walk away. Today's guest knows a thing or two about all that. Today, Matt Sainman is the head boys basketball coach at Midway High in Waco. But in 2003, he was just minding his own business, enjoying a summer of living the good life. Playing some basketball and lifting weights and playing beach volleyball. Prepping for a senior year at Baylor where he and his teammates were heading into a season with high hopes. They had aspirations of a Big 12 title and a March Madness run of their own. And then, the unthinkable happened. What's fascinating to me about this conversation with Matt is this. At the time, as he was going through that senior year, he thought that season didn't matter. He thought it was just a dark chapter that people would forget. But years later, watching Baylor win a national championship, he started to realize something different. That's what they did, the showing up, the staying, the competing, when everything around them was falling apart. That was the foundation for that championship. Not the highlight, the foundation. The foundation. And that's the tension we're going to explore in this episode. Because most of us don't get to choose whether we go through hard seasons, but we do get to choose who we become within them. And sometimes the seasons that feel the most insignificant, those are the ones that matter the most. I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Matt Saiman in episode 153. Let's get into it. Greetings and welcome back, becoming another of the podcasts for those who dare bravely risk mightily and grow relentlessly. Join me at Toby Brooks as I invite a new guest each week as we examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place. This week, I'm stoked. I've finally got a Baylor guest on here. Matt Saiman joined me. He's the head basketball coach at Midway High School. And he's got a heck of a story. Also an author and a successful collegiate basketball player. So Matt, thanks so much for joining me. Now, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, my boss West Knoll kind of put me on the trail. I wasn't aware of your book and my wife and I were having this conversation last week. And we said, remember when I said under no circumstances would I go to Baylor? First, there was the Patrick Denny's situation. Then there was the Art Braille situation. And you know, the Lord certainly likes to challenge me on the things I say I won't do. So here we are. But you were there for Scott Drew's first season and also all the things that transpired before that. So we'll get into that in just a minute. But I know you were a successful high school and college basketball player. Still hold some Baylor records if I'm not mistaken. And so I always like to start at the beginning. What do you want to be growing up and why? Matt Saiman Yeah, I love that. When I was nine years old, I had a skills coach up in Pennsylvania where I was from. And one day he sat me down and he said, Matt, what are your goals? And I had no clue what he was talking about as far as goal setting. And so I said, all the things that kids say and no order to them, no plan for executing them at all. And he said, no, let's look at this in a couple years. When you get to high school, what would you like to see? Where would you like to be with basketball? And I said, okay, I'd like to make my freshman A team. And so I wrote that down nine or 10 years old. And he said, okay, what's the next step after that? And I said, well, I think I'd like to make varsity as a sophomore. And so I wrote that down. And then the last one was to play Division one basketball and wrote that down. And he just helped me kind of a step by step approach to goal setting that I thought was really unique. Because over the years, I've talked to plenty of kids that say, I want to play in the NBA. Okay, great goal. How do you get there? I don't know. I have no idea. And so there's this, that approach really helped me as I really got it. I played a lot of sports growing up, but really love basketball. That was kind of the thing that I always was doing. And that was my main sport. But fell in love with skill work, pistol Pete Marovitch videotapes that his homework basketball really got me loving the part of the game that is sometimes boring for players, which is you and a ball alone, just doing drills. But just created this workout over the years called Jamote that stands for just a matter of doing it. And it just grew and grew. And then he's kind of fast forward a few years. I'm living in Pennsylvania, but I come down right before my freshman year in high school to go to a basketball camp in Texas. And I met a guy named Tommy Thomas, who was the head coach at the colony high school. I was about five, six, five, seven, very average in everything, but pretty skilled and very serious about the game told him my three goals. And he said, Matt, that can happen for you down here in Texas. And so I flew back up to Pennsylvania where all of our family is from told my parents on the way home from the airport that I need to move to Texas so I can be a college basketball player and asked my little sister. They asked my little sister, is that something that you want to do? She said, let's do it. And we changed our lives. I'm going to force my way in here early. Hope I don't get in a foul trouble along the way. But man, I absolutely love this story. From the age of nine, a young Matt loves basketball. And with the help of a skills coach, he's able to plot his course to accomplish some pretty impressive dreams. I like to say strategic and purpose, relentless and pursuit better every day. And at nine, Matt's got a strategy. Then he's relentless in the pursuit of it. And as he continues to grow, he happens to head to a camp in Texas, where coach takes an interest and convinces him that if he wants to make those dreams come true, his path would be better served in Texas rather than Pennsylvania. After talking it over with his family, and this is the remarkable part, they agree. Just like that, the family moves to Texas so Matt can chase his dreams. Maybe you've got parents like that, or maybe you didn't have parents at all. What I'm reminded of here is just how important it is to have our people. When you've got great big dreams, to have people around you who not only believe in you, but they're willing to help you make your dreams a reality. Sure, where there's a will, there's a way. A strong will can get you moving, but the right people can make you sore. For Matt, it was his family. And time would tell that their sacrifice did not only help Matt turn his dreams into reality, they also helped shape the college he didn't up at, not to mention the man he would become. My dream, so my dream became my parent's dream. And the only reason I can imagine that they would do that is that they saw how serious I was about it. It wasn't just a hobby, something that I picked up and put down. And so they got all behind that dream. And then that's, I think what makes what happened at Baylor even more difficult was, this wasn't just something that fell into our lap, you know, being a college basketball player, something that was really planned for and I worked really hard to get there. Yeah, that's an incredible story and certainly one that, you know, you got to be thankful to your parents for making that dream happen, but you're putting in the work, you're investing the time and connecting with coaches. You don't just fall out of bed and become a Division 1 basketball player. What led to you actually signing at Baylor and being, you know, that D1 player that you dreamed of back in nine, 10 years old? Yeah, the crazy thing about those goals that Coach Zella was his name asked me to put down was, they happened in that order. When I got to the Colony, it was, I was from a small town in Pennsylvania, where actually football was king. So if I was trying to get somewhere where football wasn't big, then I came to the wrong state. But if football was really big where I was from in Berwick, and coming down to the Colony, it was a 5A high school, 600 plus kids in the class in each class. And it was just a very much a culture shock from where I had grown up and where I'd lived. But basketball, at least the skill part, I mean, that translated, you know, that it didn't matter where, what you're used to, who you're used to living with or being around and, and the type of place. And so I made my freshman A team, and, but I was still small, size 13 shoe. And then my sophomore year, I grew five or six inches over the summer, because my dad's six, three, and my mom's tall. So everybody was thinking, it's going to happen, but it was just, I mean, super late. And but I hit my growth spur was really skinny, but still skilled. But I made varsity as a sophomore. Got into the weight room and really focused on that into my junior year and just exploded. The skill was there, but then the athleticism hit and I had height. That was about six, two, and then had a great junior and senior year halfway through. Well, the summer going into my senior year, I noticed some coaches that were starting to follow our select team, but we had a really good select team, 10, 11, D1 guys on there. I didn't even start on that select team. But I had seen a Baylor coach, his name was Doug Ash, had a lot of our games, but I actually thought he was looking at maybe one of my teammates instead. But then sure enough, they asked me to come down and my mom on a visit and coach Bliss met us along the highway at a gas station to leave our car. And he was going to escort us around and he had the Bible, a Bible in his back seat. And my mom still thinks to this day that it was on purpose because of who we were. I mean, I was known for that. My family, we were known as believers and it was very much well known that's how we live. And so he, I think, definitely wanted my mom and I to know that this was a place where I could live out my faith openly. And, but also he was the kind of coach that would guide me in that direction as well. Man, I loved the university, loved, loved. One thing he did really well is because I'd gone on another visit to SMU and I never saw the head coach until the very end. It was very rushed and I felt like I wasn't their choice. In fact, they even alluded to we're looking at a couple other guys, your same position and I knew them and I was there. I was thinking, okay, they're better than me. I got and, but coach bliss made me feel like I was the only one. And every time he introduced me to somebody, he, I felt super special. Like he couldn't, he was telling them if, if Matt could be here, this is going to be incredible. And, and then in our last meeting, he showed me some film. It's funny. He showed me some film of some offense that we never used, but he, I don't know if he was trying to wow me or maybe it's something that he wanted to do, but we never used what he was showing. But he sold me on that because I, I, I'm not from Texas. I didn't really understand universities down here who was big and who's not. I knew big 12 was a good conference, but I just really wanted, I think, to go somewhere that I was wanted. And he told me that I was going to be one of the pillars of the Baylor basketball program. I mean, what kid doesn't want to hear that from a coach. And so on the way home from that visit, I told my mom that that's, I want to go there. And I mean, tears just welling up in her eyes because she, she wanted that too. And so it was really this kind of the nine year old dream all coming together. And it actually happening. Like what are the odds of that? And especially when you're, I always joke around that I think part of the reason for writing the book was to give people an inside look of what is it like to be a part of a college basketball program, but not as a star. It has a role player, like somebody that just survives for four years. Cause Zion's one year at Duke and my four years, I think are very different experiences and how we were, but yeah, it was just, it was really cool to see that happen from a guy that's not athletically special. I'm six three, which isn't that tall for that level. And not that fast can't jump that high. And so how do you actually do it? And, and it was, it's pretty cool to see that that got allowed and helped all that, those things to happen. Yeah. Cornemar research, you owe the record that I think it's safe to say will never be broken in this NIL era. School records for career games played at 118. Obviously. I'm gonna stop you there. I, I appreciate you doing your homework and I did have that record for a few years, but Baylor got so good that those guys back in the mid 2000s, mid 2010s were playing into post season and playing for a long time and for four years. So I don't know where I am on it now, but I mean, I have the ball that proves that at one point I did hold it. Right. Well, I think it's safe to say that wherever you are on that list, it's probably pretty firm at this point. A lot of one and done's just, yeah, we see the, you know, the entire roster turned over last season. There's talk that it might happen again, but regardless that was a different era and you were obviously contributing early and often and and have to think that your dreams are coming through. If we were to ask 19 year old Matt, what's your identity? How would you define yourself in that freshman, that sophomore year? What would you have said then before all the calamity started? Yeah, that's a great question. I think, I think I would have given you the answer that I'm supposed to say, which is I'm a christ follower first. I was pretty, I was good at that. I knew the right things to say. I think I knew all those answers and there was a part of me. I mean, it was how I was raised baptized when I was five. I just all I can't remember a lifetime where we didn't go to church or part of my life and the Bible wasn't a part of my life. And so I would have said that now the honest answer is basketball. And the only way I know that now is because when that summer hit then and basketball was kind of ripped apart. I realized I don't have an identity and the identity I thought I had or I told people I had I really had been walking away from that for quite some time. And I think if you rip open my chest, I think there was a basketball there and then you know, then the danger of that is for any athlete or really any professional. I mean, it could even be a relationship that you hold really that's really dear to you that you're putting that person even on a pedestal to put your all your value and effort into a sport, a job or a relationship. What happens if it breaks apart? Yeah, and I just I just learned that you know the hard way that sports will let you down basketball, your job, your profession, everything will let you down and hopefully God puts people in your life that won't but we're flawed and so I yeah, I think that's the answer I would have given. You've maybe seen those videos on instagram or tiktok that say quote subtle foreshadowing in quote where the dude's like trying to open up a bottle or loosen up a drain plug on an oil pan and there's quick little brief clips inserted where he's covered with it, right? This is that. Matt acknowledges that for that time in his life. He was a college basketball player he loved baler because it was a place where he could be vocal about his faith. He could live it out. He could be authentically christian however, in the summer of 2003 the world would learn a lot about baler and Matt would learn a lot about himself there are moments in a career where everything you thought you were building suddenly gets stripped away and for that baler program in the wake of the baler university basketball scandal, it was a metaphor. It was real if you're not familiar with that moment in college basketball history I'd say it's one of the darkest stories in the history of college sport A baler player Patrick Dennehy was tragically murdered by a teammate Carlton Dotson In the aftermath it was revealed that head coach Dave Bliss had instructed players specifically to lie in order to cover up NCAA violations including improper payments pinning the blame on the slain dennehy making him out to be a drug dealer who was the source of the money that had actually been handed out against NCAA rules by bliss what started first as a tragedy quickly exposed something deeper a culture that had horribly lost its way and when it all came to light the program that had been on the rise and was expected to make a run at a big 12 title absolutely cratered scholarships were slashed players transferred coaching staff gone the season was essentially forfeited baler basketball became for a moment the example nobody wanted to be and it's been the subject of more than one documentary and to this day it's a stain on the fabric of a school that has long heralded itself as an apologetically Christian and if you're matt semen in that moment your career hangs in the balance because the thing you committed to the system you trusted suddenly isn't there anymore then enters Scott drew young full of energy unproven walking into what a lot of people called the worst job in college basketball at the time and he didn't walk in just promising wins he walked in promising a rebuild from the ground up even mentioning championships in his initial press conference people across the country listened and maybe even laughed as this young guy out of nowhere took the helm of a program with an active murder investigation ongoing from last year's roster and he's talking about winning championships but that's where this becomes more than just a story about a scandal because for matt this wasn't about bouncing back it was about deciding who he was going to be when everything else around him was unstable under bliss whatever that program had become it had broken but under drew with most of last year's talent either gone or incarcerated or murdered it didn't immediately get better and in fact it got harder fewer players fewer wins more uncertainty a long road with no guarantee at the end of it and in that space matt had a choice that every high performer eventually faces do i leave because this no longer serves me or do i stay and let this refine me because staying meant buying into something you couldn't yet see no proof no payoff just belief and a willingness to endure we celebrate baler men's basketball now in 2021 scott drew made good on that promise people laughed at in 2003 as the bears defeated gunzaga in the national championship but for matt none of that was visible then but what was visible was chaos and what he chose to do in that chaos that's what actually shapes a career not when things are clear but when things are not that's where becoming undone actually happens but for matt there would be more than one undoing yet to come yeah well i appreciate that transparency i think for a lot of folks we wear masks we we want to and i can say for myself there's lots of times when i might give an answer that i wish were more true when in fact if i really got honest and vulnerable and shared the truths that in that season it might be a little bit different so i appreciate you sharing that so the wheels start falling off and the unthinkable i mean we've got a murder on a college basketball team and the coaching staff implodes the program is in disarray and you're one of the few the title of your book the leftovers and the subtitle there baler betrayal and beyond so talk me through that season and and what it was like in weiko And what it was like inside the basketball program or maybe what matt's thinking at this point do i transfer do i stick it out Like what what are you thinking in that season? I think just to rewind a little it was what made it even charter was the direction we were heading and i team my freshman year And so i already got a taste of postseason like this can happen at baler with coach bliss We were super young my soft point year, but competitive Older and super competitive and right on the edge my junior year But everybody feeling and knowing like we're about to do this you got roleplayers like me Rt. Gwynn tarance thomas that we're going to be seniors You got future pros like john lucas and loris roberts and candy taylor was our best shooter I mean it's really coming together like kind of looked at that we could be in the top four in the big 12 Which is top 25 usually which means march madness, which i'm a duke fan And always grew up a duke fan got went to duke basketball camp and practice christian latiners shot Out in the driveway falling into the snow You're breaking my heart right now matt i was a kentucky fan growing up so that turn around jumper To free throw line and stuff a nightmare All of those great all those great march madness moments filling out brackets over the years and You know when you and i are talking right now it's it's it's coming up this weekend It's still a special it's the the most special sporting event to me You know that we have but to to be a part of that What was is the ultimate goal? I feel like of every college basketball player and coach and so it was about to happen And it was a friday afternoon I it just come in from playing sand volleyball out of sterling And and and so is it was every day was pretty much in the summer a little bit of class weights and some basketball and then sand volleyball And it's just such a sweet time living the dream. That's what I felt like I was doing and one of my professors called and said man, what's going on with your team? And I was like, ah, I don't know like what I played with a lot of Um knuckleheads I think is a nice way to put it over the years And he said no, you need to turn on the tv They're talking about that their baler basketball players missing and a possible homicide and that baler basketball players might be involved And I lived a pretty charmed life to that point I can't remember a significant death in my family parents were still together this idea of I have this dream I ever basketball god in my mind was making it all happen the way that I wanted kind of my own theology of like a genie and This was the first time that that was derailed or there's a hiccup in it at all And over the course of that summer it was two months what if two months of new revelation after new revelation And learning right along with everybody else what it felt like Yeah, it was the world because fast forward to I'm After my senior year in baler. I'm playing in iceland my first practice there Um, one of my teammates asked where'd you play? I said baler thinking that they've never seen a big 12 player before in in yard Vic iceland and And they said puzzled look he goes don't they kill people there? Oh, wow and and so like that that story followed me, but yeah that summer Um, I wanted to get out of wake go wake go to me. I loved being on campus. In fact at that time What's that movie van wilder? It's not a great movie But he wanted he was on campus for six or seven years and was like I love it here I'm gonna keep saying I will that was my vision of grad school and just stay I'm just gonna stay here I love and so but that that campus just started to close in On me and my teammates. It was no longer about basketball. It was what do you know? What can you tell us? I'm driving from Dallas back to wake go and I get a call from new york times That'd be really cool if they were wanting to know about our team and how great we were going to be and What's it feel like to be in a top 25 team? No, it was what can you tell us? What don't we know yet? I would go to the student life center the slick and Which I'd done Thousand felt like thousands of times And there were news crews waiting out there Not I don't think they knew I was gonna show up But they saw me And then there was their chance to talk to an insider and and another thing formed which was And I get it like I get why bailer and our media guys wanted me to do it Because I was the only one that was a four-year guy And I think the only one that they trusted would say the right things Because they needed somebody at that moment to be pro bailer Pro the basketball program Uh excited about the future, but inside I was The exact opposite Wanted to get out of there Didn't think that they would even be able to hire a coach And didn't know who that would be I did try I called two and I talked about this in the story I talked I I called two colleges one that had used to that had been recruited me before but that coach was no longer there And then I called because a buddy of mine that we had gone to bailer together He had Logan Kalsmalski. He had played for two years Went to Davidson after a sophomore year. I begged him to stay I said Logan, don't you get like we got something special here manless That he goes to Davidson and has a great normal career. I'm a part of the leftovers and so Maybe I know Logan didn't know but um, I called Logan. I was like, hey, do you think coach McKillip McKillip would take me And he was like, oh man, I'll put you in touch. I had a 10 minute phone call with coach He was super kind to me But i'm a i'm a six three average athleticism athleticism player that Average four and a half points a game and I take charges and I dive on the floor and I'm a really good teammate And he just was kind and said, you know, we don't really take one year guys Which I totally understood at that time because transferring wasn't the same as it is today You typically aren't doing it for good reasons and the guys that did come They would sit out a year and it would take them so long to get in the mix for one year Some never did in fact, I played over some of those guys and I never I don't think I should have but it just was Hard and so I just knew that was I was staying at Baylor the coaching staff that I played almost a hundred games for They found out that they were doing a lot of things wrong And I didn't know about that and there's some interactions with coach bliss that were really tough over that summer that I had always believed in coaches my my parents taught me to trust them and it was the first time I felt like I was really Had been lied to By them and then on top of it Patrick Dennehy, I mean I he was a red shirt My junior year so kind of in and out red shirts aren't always at practice aren't always around But we knew how good he was going to be and that he was going to really help us next year And he was always really kind. I never had an issue with Patrick at all but for him to Be gone and one of my teammates Carlton who I actually Really liked and was a couple lockers down from me and we would kind of our path our paths of playing time Were sometimes along the same lines to where I felt like we kind of had each other's back and would encourage each other and never Saw that coming and I lost 10 teammates that summer And so you're just going into your senior year As a I'm a 21 year old That's really been living this kind of charmed life And now everything is crashing down And so to go back to your question earlier of identity I was just completely lost Yeah, yeah, that has to be tough and you know, you've got expectations Thinking that teams going to be kind of moving onward and upward or on the threshold of doing some great things and all that comes crashing down Not to mention a death and NCAA issues So you get this coach that no one had probably ever heard of Scott drew comes to town And you're part of A very few who stick around and you're the leftovers. What do you remember about your first real interaction with coach drew? I was driving so I tried to do my best to get out of Waco as much as I could that summer Especially the bubble. It just it was different There's even There were news stories interviewing other students Where they were frustrated because of what basketball players had done because it was another stain on our university and and even mentioned like being having to be careful about being around basketball players And I felt that I felt that walking around the campus and so Try to get out as much as I could and I'm driving back and a buddy calls me and says Hey, you got a new coach. I'm thinking who would take that Why would you take this like you can't be very good? You have to be escaping something or like this is your Eighth chance at something and they're like Scott drew and I said never never heard of him I don't know who that is He was 32 years old when he took over and I was 21 and and so there and and There's only one other assistant that was like he had a couple assistants that are a little older than him But the oldest assistant was 40. So it was a super young staff and We were meeting him for the first time right before Right before his press conference I think around that time and He walked in but before he walked in I was just surveying our team And I used kind of quotes like for team because it was me and two other seniors But tarence had only been there for a year our team for two years. This is my fourth We had a couple freshmen that were sophomores now that didn't play much as freshmen And then a freshman that did decide to come because a lot had decided not to come anymore and some walk-ons and I just remember thinking I know what we're about to go up against in a division one big 12 high level schedule that coach bliss had made for a top 25 team and Not alone and let alone the big 12 and all of the hall of fame coaches that were there and NBA players at that time And I was just down in the dumps about this is how did this happen? And he comes in almost jogging. I felt like so much energy and bouncing around Hands out big smile thanking us for being there And then he kept saying this that we're building something for the future And I didn't want to hear that I don't want to that's not I don't want to be a part of that um, I this is the futures now and Everything he was saying was right And he was doing all the right things. He even met with us one-on-one um, and when he met with us if for me he was thanking me and asked me to be even a bigger leader And to go out and meet with the guys one-on-one and to really get them on board and The the the tough thing is I've got I became used to being the guy that The coaches are all just happy with and don't have to ask me of anything or tell me anything I show up and I work really hard. I give them my best. I'm a leader when I'm there But I don't hang out with guys outside of basketball and it kept me out of the police investigation I only had to go once because I didn't really hang out with them that much and But that wasn't just wasn't my thing. I had other friends and how why are you asking me to do this? Like to spend more time with guys that for something now that deep down. I don't think I care much about And so I I was very guarded And and I've told him this so this isn't new and I apologized over the years to him Um, I wish I would have been more open. I wish I would have given him more of a chance but I was there was such a sting from What the previous coach had said and done And then what had come out in the newspapers and and all those things that I was just so guarded and the fact that We weren't even allowed to play in postseason play So it was it'd be like you and I before we get we get our new job And they say hey, you're gonna work hard. You're gonna do all these things, but we're not gonna pay you Where do you sign? Like that's I'm not doing that And so before we you know, but then I had to be up in front of everybody Talking in front of the media saying hey happy to be here You know glad glad the coach Drew is here excited for this season. We get to go to hawaii. That's fun But all in my head. I'm thinking it none of it matters We don't even even if we were hypothetically had been good We couldn't play and as somebody that was just working like that was to me the big carrot at that time I didn't want to play in after college. I was planning on going to grad school and staying on staff Yeah, it just it was just wasn't the picture that I thought and and even the start that year. It was just rough Yeah, well, I got a wonder. I mean coach drew is now famous for being A guy that builds culture and he comes here and in his opening press conference You know and I was sitting in that in that in that gym because they show it at the baler You know every time before they play show them there I remember Because my wife and I went and watched Arizona them in Arizona a few weeks ago and they're showing that it was kind of like a crazy I was there, but what a different Mindset I had at that moment. No, I mean the flames are still kind of burning around this program And here comes a guy that again you hadn't heard of young full of energy But still unproven largely and he's talking about winning championships And not just conference championships national championships and it ends up being prophetic like it does happen But I have to wonder Was that an iRoll moment for you or were you thinking like almost uh almost a laugh out loud in my in my mind like Like are you? Coach like that's not happening man. Yeah, you know and it was just because we're so we were so talent wise and even depth So far from that in fact the team that I thought like that was last year's team You know the team that we were supposed to have could possibly do that and another thing too is I think you mentioned culture I think coach true was on the cutting edge Of how a majority of people talk about being today or want to be today He was doing that at we had music in practice. I remember walking and like what are we doing here? Why are jock jams in practice? This isn't serious You know they're they're beating drums before games tang is beating the a trash can and they they're jumping up and down They're doing things they're hugging they're smiling and i'm like this I was used to a bobby knight type of environment in practice because coach bliss was bobby knight's first assistant coach and Very much alike in their discipline my first My first practice with coach bliss and coach drew Could not be more different or first interactions coach bliss literally looked at us and said i'm not your friend You have enough friends. I'm here to coach you basketball and then he said baler here You're here And he had this huge gap in between the two and it was like okay We get it the the assistants that and coach drew and the assistants were way more They were positive They were physical with like hugging and touching and i i mean i I don't if i ever hugged coach bliss like i just i don't even know what i mean A couple handshakes and it was just such a different dynamic that now Like that's what i try to do With my players like i want that and i think it's become way more popular Or but because of the results that it has of that type of positive culture where people feel like they're cared for It's just not what i wanted which is silly Because you should want that but when you're i mean three years Well, you know over a thousand days of hard-nosed fear-based leadership. Yeah You get used to that almost to the point where like this is serious You're not a serious program if you're not doing that Yeah in my research i mean teaching and coaching share lots in common and Much of the work that i've done talks about the apprenticeship of observation and how whether you're An athlete or a student You are on the receiving end of coaching and teaching and that has a way of kind of settling into Our beliefs about what it means to be a coach and to be a teacher And if you've spent a lot of time under an authoritarian coach You kind of tend to become an authoritarian coach and A lot of judgment comes in when we experience someone that's that's different from our own So i have to think that that yeah coach drew is known for building culture But for you it was a culture shock and maybe not in a in a good way initially so you managed to make it through that season and Basketball's over lots of times in this show we talk about that transition and you mentioned you played professionally So talk me through where you were psychologically when your collegiate playing days had ended And you're considering what's coming next we'll be back after this quick message We ever looked in the mirror and thought What in the hell just happened to my life when the career shifts When the relationship ends When the identity you've built your whole life around Disappears overnight That's not failure. That's what I call a purpose door And most high achievers aren't prepared for it because no one ever taught us how to train for a comeback I'm dr. Toby Brooks and I built the signs of the comeback for people who refuse to stay broken Inside the app you'll find research backed resilience training daily prompts and guided reflection tools performance psychology frameworks identity rebuilding exercises and personalized structured pathways to move from burnout and confusion to clarity and momentum It's not hype. It's neuroscience. It's performance science and it's hard-won experience If you're listening to becoming undone, I created a special offer just for you For the next three months you can get full access for just 49 bucks for an entire year Or just five bucks a month with no obligation and you can cancel it anytime That's less than the price of a cup of coffee to start rebuilding your life on purpose Your comeback isn't accidental. It's intentional Start yours today at scienceofthekumback.com And if you don't mind just to kind of jump a year back from that moment when it when it was over uh because we talked a lot about identity earlier and When basketball was the thing that I was working towards and pursuing and then when that wasn't that important anymore Yeah, I think athletes or competitors in general are always looking for an outlet for that Michael Jordan kind of every once in a while A little article will come up where he just talks about how empty he is Because he he has nowhere to place that competitiveness and it nothing feeds it Not the golf not the gambling not owning teams not anything like playing did for him And so when that I'm I'm not that level of competitor but a competitor and and when it's not I don't find joy in that or any interest Well, you have to put that somewhere and I put it into the cup the party scene And that had never been a part of my life Up into that summer now. I mean I I had when I turned 21 I started to maybe You know, it's kind of funny where you can kind of see where sin creeps in In little ways it had kind of been creeping it but very subdued very Not the same but then blew the doors wide open on that all season long It was my idea of I'm just going to keep having fun Off the floor do whatever I can to find some joy to laugh a little bit because we're losing This isn't fun this doesn't make any sense to me and even though in that season the the leftovers book for anybody It's not depressing. It's a it's an underdog story because we end up Halfway through that season my teammates Terrence Thomas. He's the hero of the book of the story. He And we we band together and we start to buy into this coach drew idea of every night's our championship Let's enjoy each other. Let's play hard for each other. Let's come together and we do that and we end up being really competitive in a big 12 That where we have no business being I mean, there were I think at that time seven or eight holofame coaches You know in there in that league and We beat some teams we beat a and m twice. We beat Iowa State We were up 14 at Oklahoma with kelvin samson, you know, and we lost that game But so many great moments but after that season But the thing is even when basketball got good those habits didn't go anywhere that I was that I developed And so I just they kind of basketball and that those habits kept moving along well by the end of the season and I After that Oklahoma game on the back of the bus on the way home We're up 14. We ended up losing because inevitably we just got tired Like we did every game because we're playing six guys and we're role players And I was so done. I I wanted nothing to do with basketball And so about two months go by I don't touch a ball And then just happened to be up at the student life center slick and there's all this basketball I'll go play a little pick up and just one game of pickup and I was like, oh man I'm not done. I want to keep playing so went over to iceland and coach striskel Helped me get that one of the assistants helped me get that because I was a hard sell for pro basketball average Eight and a half points a game my senior year, but I was playing 38 minutes like you should average more than that if you're good And and but I had some assists and I was a bigger sized Point guard and so went over to iceland and really Through myself into training three times a day It was so much fun And icelandic people were incredible In basketball it was there's a big difference from big 12 play where those guys were all more athletic all of a sudden I was the athletic one and so I was playing really well and my off-court habits though followed me there and We had an apartment that they had given me to live in And you know one night we had a really big party there and the owners of the club came to me and said matt You can't do that again. Like that's not what this is a for and I was just so arrogant lost um just thought in invincible maybe and The a couple nights later had even a bigger one And the next night they came the next day they came and hand me a plane ticket And at that point the home and at that point I was averaging a triple double. We had won the icelandic cup I had offers to go to other european countries and play But I wanted to stay in iceland where I was because I'm a loyal guy and they asked me to leave and I completely understand why they did when I came home from that I was about 22 then at the time and Completely lost. I mean I went to abracame and fitch And was a manager there for a year. I kind of a baler degree I played basketball and I'm managing manages to weather the storms of baler both external and campus community and media In the wake of one of the largest scandals in college basketball history Not to mention the internal turmoil where it feels like the love of the game is gone In a season that started as a disappointment before it even began With a depleted roster and nc double a sanctions making even an unlikely successful season ensure that postseason aspirations were impossible But one pickup came back at the campus rec center and some help from an assistant coach And he finds himself on the other side of the world as a pro basketball player And it's going well for a while Matt's a star in iceland, but his parting habits that had taken root during his senior year Ultimately spell the end of his professional career It would mark the end of his dreams as an athlete and send him straight into the teeth of a purpose store With time and again with some help from someone who believed in him At this point perhaps more than he believed in himself He sets off in a new direction finding a new purpose along the way not to mention a divine appointment with a beautiful young lady But more on that in just a sec And i'm folding jeans no offense to people in retail It was just i i just didn't know what to do I tried nine different jobs in about three years and then luckily and i think it's a god thing but uh a guy Uh my high school coach called me and said hey, there's a guy that's opening a gym wants a director of basketball operations in in dalis And you should go meet with them and i did that Met with them and then part of my task there was to go to create an eighth grade boys select team for his son and that group of boys Coached them it was my first time to ever do that I fell in love with it. And so that was kind of my journey from playing to being lost for about Two three years almost and then getting into two years and then getting into coaching At that point. Yeah, what a story. What a journey literally around the globe. You're seeing kind of Some consequences of sin that had creeped into your life at that point Where were you spiritually and and how was your face? helping or Maybe pulling you in in different directions. Yeah, I was completely running away Uh, just just wanted When I say nothing to do with it. Um, there's a tremendous I felt tremendous guilt For how I was living But then the anger of why I was there it was misplaced It I took no responsibility It was all about how could you let that happen? and then Really trying to drown out that that The that holy spirit Feeling of what you're doing won't Still fill you it won't work You're trying to escape this but it's not it's not going to go anywhere And and I knew I that's where it's kind of like I'm so thankful to my parents for Raising me the way that they did and giving me that foundation and for for For christ coming into my life at a young age because even though I went a Poor direction and made some bad choices. I always knew what I was doing was wrong And that this wasn't the life that god had for me But there was that anger piece of like well, then why'd you let that stuff happen? But that's not how That's not how it works. And that's that young person's idea of Who god is or what it is to be a christian? and What I wish is I could go back to that time when that all happened And really figure out. Okay god. What can I learn from this? How can I be a light during this time? How can I serve others? How can I help others that are struggling right now? I did none of that. I became completely selfish And only focused on my happiness pleasure and joy and man that will take you down Horrible roads so really from that summer to my 30th birthday. I was a high school coach at the time of our assistant and I There's I wish I could apologize to some of those early on players Because I was good at the basketball part But didn't horrible at the culture part. I was way more like coach bliss early on and just really angry and transactional not transformational, which is I think what we want to be as coaches and then on my 30th birthday Uh, I was alone in my apartment in mckinney just completely frustrated of why how where I was in life and how this was happened and ended up I hadn't been to church in years and ended up The next sunday going to a random church in plano that I didn't attend I just drove by it and I knew it was there and I sat in the back of the of the Of the church and listened to a sermon that I felt like I'd heard You know thousands of times And filled out a visitor card. They threw that card around I never filled out a card before because I'd I never been a visitor at a church before it always just been an attender And so I filled out that card. I said I'm angry and I have questions and gave my information on there Never thought I'd hear back from anybody and A little bit of time goes by but I got an email from a lady at the church Saying hey, love to connect you with our pastor come on in and and we set up a time She met me out. She opened the door for me Walked me in and we sat and talked for a little bit. I was waiting for the pastor and then Uh, I basically shared the story like I kind of had did with you right here and he said matt like why Why do you think all of these things have happened or he said no, he said matt you you've got to give up control And I said no, I did that already. I'm already saved like I've done that I give me something else He's like no no like when those bad things happen You took control of your life of your happiness of your identity of everything And and he said how's that going for you? And he basically he told me you've got to look and take Accountability for the decisions that you've made which I never had done up to that point and so a pretty cool Life changing moment there, but to me it felt more like coming back home It was familiar. It wasn't like a oh, I I didn't know any of these things. It was more it was more like I'll really allowing God to live through me or move in my life and and You change some of those bad habits because it may be over times. I bet like all right. I'm done I'm not doing that anymore and inevitably I would when I got upset or angry And then another cool thing that I wasn't looking for when I walked into church that day was um, the lady that answered the email and opened the door We got married a year later And then now we were celebrated. I think 13 or 14 years For 13 married 14 knowing her but janna. I got put her there that day for a catalyst for for change and I'm so thankful for that. Yeah. Wow a non-believer would just say wow You're really lucky that you just happened upon that right right, but what a coincidence. No Yeah, yeah Well, I love the redemption that's kind of baked into that and how there's kind of a full circle moment there where The faith that led you to baler and may have wavered ultimately a strength and then and you You once again kind of understand And maybe you're living out that answer of When someone asked about your identity man, it's it's so much better when we can actually be the thing we claim to be Speaking of redemption arcs though that same bright-eyed brash Happy coach with his arms wide talking about national championships at baler actually wins one Talk to me about how you and the leftovers like do you claim? Some ownership in that process So where do you see yourself in the baler story and specifically with scott drew, you know, do you think that that season? Ultimately helped lay the foundation for what was to come at baler. Oh, okay Sitting by my wife holding her hand Watching baler win it in 2021 incredible Uh tearing up the whole time when it's when we realize, okay They're actually gonna hold gonzaga off because I thought the whole time good. It was gonna storm back like they're No way are we gonna hold this 20 point lead for this long and but man we did and uh Over the years, I've had some people Thank me thank some of my teammates. I'm sure for staying and what we did For years after that that my senior year I thought nobody cared that it was just this Horrible dark time that we don't want to think about or get past I was even reluctant to come back to campus for a few years after which was silly. That was all in my head and A few years after I think uh, maybe 2008 or 2009 I'm not sure about that day, but I was going to american airlines to watch baler play gonzaga actually and early on in their year in pastor weibull I saw him. He was our chaplain my senior year And I saw him and he gave me this huge bear hug and he said matt look out at the floor And at that time it was perry jones. They had they had future nba players already Already it was probably 2010 or so, but and he said look out the floor And he said this wouldn't be possible if not for what you guys did That year and it's been it's been cool to hear that it's humbling to hear that um You have funny thing is terrence Terrence It really took the situation that happened to us Back then and he made his life better from it. He's stayed connected the program All the all the players in the last 20 years for the most part. No terrence because he's around and and But he called me because a few years ago I don't know who did it, but somebody did a story about the foundation And the foundation for them was uh, henry dugah Curtis jarrals, um I think mama do is probably in that, you know, there it was kind of that class or that group of guys Calling them the foundation. I I get it because they were the first team to win and really take us from Like obscurity or a team that's just hanging around and playing hard to We're in march. We're in the dance now. They I mean they they made it to march madness five years after That's the testament to coach druna's staff. How incredible they are Building teams getting guys to come in and building that culture that people want to be a part of After we've only had six dudes and all that scandal five years. It's incredible But terrence called me. He's like, can you believe that? We're the foundation. We are that's a terrace. Like I I appreciate that buddy. Like I think only you and I Care about that, you know But to be a small part of that championship Is is humbling uh, really cool, especially when I didn't think what we did would ever Mean anything to anybody I got a box out. I got a wedge myself back in here one more time. Matt says quote I didn't think that what we did would ever mean anything to anybody End quote Even the title of his book the leftovers, which we'll get to in a minute I think it's a little bit of a shame that we're not going to be able to do anything The leftovers which we'll get to in a minute gives testimony to how matt felt like he'd worked his whole life Being that gritty tough leadership first glue guy who might only get you single-digit points for 38 minutes of work But he'd also take three charges and two dives on loose balls and double digit assists He did all the little things only to have all of that go so horribly wrong and stolen away just weeks before It culminated with that senior season That had transformed almost overnight from promise and opportunity to tragedy and hopelessness The whole thing had stolen matt's love for the game And he turned to a party scene to dull the pain In that he created habits that would haunt him for years But looking back now through trials and experience and growth and grace He can now see the role he played in a baler program that went from the ashes and the tragedy of a murdered teammate And unspeakable awfulness in its wake To a national championship less than two decades later And it all started with those leftovers And with that smiling clapping and encouraging young coach by the name of scott true And over the years i've just found that to be so false And that people really do care that we showed up we played hard we Were coachable We we believed in each other And we competed And I think I think tarence is right in the fact that I I think we've gotten our our just do like I don't think we're owed anything else But um, but no we were definitely a part of it and and then other baler guys have just They just took it to all their levels with all of the winning even before the championship Our program had a 10-year run or so that was just incredible Yeah, the integral matt same and he's the head boys basketball coach at midway high school here in waco And also the author of the leftovers baler betrayal and beyond Matt talked to me about how this idea to write the book came about and What was that process like for you and and how do you feel like your life up to that point prepared you to be an author? And I love that and I don't I don't talk about this a lot So thank you for asking that never once jumped to be an author Truly my only goal as a young person was to be a college basketball player. I had no plan b There was nothing after that When I when I was asked to take what major I just asked what logan want called my roommate What he was doing hey, give me all of his he I literally for two years had his same schedule I think he was so sick of me Because I and then and then I even when they said you have to choose a major I asked some of my some of the seniors on the team. What should I choose? I said, oh speech communications It's the easiest one so I chose that and and I had nothing besides basketball and never never thought of Putting a book together and then I was at name and forest It was my first high school coaching teaching job and Somehow I'd gotten a somebody had recommended a book called life at the end of the bench by alan williams And it was about his it's called the walk-on life at the end of the bench And it's about his four years either at wake forest or georgia tech I'm not sure which one but what four years in college and I'm reading this and it's like speaking right to me of this is your same Story, it's the same battle except he was a walk-on. I was on scholarship But my freshman year to sophomore year they recruited over me And got better and I had to find a new way my sophomore and junior year They recruited over me and got better and I had to find a new role And and so I know I knew exactly what he was feeling going going through And then when I was thinking about his story and how his ended it got to his senior year and I then thought whoa Mine takes a huge shift at that point And so I just started to research like what was you know, because you kind of you're in it, but you don't It was one of probably because of how I was living at the time But it was also just very cloudy Of of what it was really like and I just I tried never to think about it And so I just started going back through and researching from day to day What was happening during that time and then and then I got to the point where okay, it's we're We're now we're getting together and we're actually Playing well against Purdue who was number 22 in the country had beaten Duke earlier We're we lost by three or four points to them. Okay. There's something to what we did that year I mean really going back through the story Uh, I would I would encourage everybody to kind of do that maybe not in a book form but look back over your story and and I was able to really see a little bit more of the path of you know, how I had gotten to where I was and and Uh, so I wanted the book to be really three things one is for the kid That wants to be a college basketball player. Okay. What's the blueprint? And you're not Zion. You're not six eight as an eighth grader your average Can you do it? And so what's the manual what what were my workouts like? What was the time investment? What did my family and I sacrificed to do that? and then and all through high school and then What's it like to actually survive at that level and not be a stud and just Make it But but be able to kind of create your own role in that role ship because my freshman year I scored a lot or not a lot, but I scored Software junior year I barely shot. I was a defensive player So you kind of have to morph and move and then the leftovers part but the funny thing was is Until janna. I really didn't have the end of the book because it would have read like this like How do you get to college? Okay. How do you survive? Oh the this um leftover story and then oh, but he's still miserable now He's still he's still broken now. Yeah and searching and then janna and and then I was the it was able to have an end to it of Okay, looking back. I see how god's hand was still with me Through all of those times still with our program with everybody involved and but I had 10 it took me five years to write it because I'm I can barely speak clearly as you can as you could tell and so hard to hard to write it Did wanted wanted to get everything right and I had he had 10 different people edit it and and and Actually tried the ghost writer thing first And but I really wanted it if anybody reads I wanted them to read it like This is a dude that knows basketball that really lived it And it has to sound like that and when the ghost writer did his first little like chapter it was just uh, the the Matt walked into the gym and he heard the swish of the net and I was like, nope. Nope. No, it's not me Like I that doesn't that's not it So went and actually wrote it had a lot of people help with that My mom was one of the editors and she marked off all the things that she didn't like But had to make a choice to be transparent about the things I was struggling with because I either Make it something not real and authentic or I go all in and not hold anything back and um I had never go into detail on things but Just to just share the struggles and then when we won it in 21 a christian publisher Whitaker contacted me about Republishing it so I self published first and then they actually came out and going through that process was really cool because they made it They we took uh a 60 pages or so out and made it very like a lot more clean Everything with that was was just so cool to be a part of Yeah, that's awesome. I know that Reflection is a critical part of learning and just the process of going back through your story and maybe processing those emotions that You know we're guys like we're we don't think about how we feel a whole lot and Being forced to do that I can say for myself. I've got a book. I've been working on for a while and there are times when I'm just not feeling it like the the emotional toll that it takes to Remember what that season felt like I I've often used the analogy if you've ever had an aquarium and it looks clean And you you stir those rocks at the bottom and all that fish goop like gets up in the water It's like maybe I just need to leave those rocks alone like I don't want to stir up That that that mass It can be tough. It can be a heavy load But there's wisdom and those lessons That wouldn't otherwise land on us sometimes Without that reflection I want to be conscious of your time I've got two left for you here one is one. I've asked of of all my guests if we were to watch a montage of your life What song would you pick to play in the background and why? I've never had that question and I may steal that from my speed round with my jamote jamote podcast Oh, man. I don't know why Jeremy camp I can't believe Jeremy camp take my life Okay, love it is a early 2000s Jeremy camp song when he was way more rock But there's so many it's like because There's a fierceness to that song and and when I was a player of I was In Iceland they they called me matis karate Which means math the devil which don't like that part But because I had a brand of playing that was fierce And intense and then with coaching I have to kind of be careful with that and not to let that that guy out sometimes And but in the right way, but that song Jeremy camp take my life the lot of great moments in that um Yeah, I give it all to you. He says that repeatedly and I like that. Yeah. No, I that's a jam I have a playlist that I put together with all of my guests picks So, uh, you'll you'll get dropped into that mix and then I'll also Drop the youtube video of that that song into the uh, the episode. That's good. That's really good Last one, I know you're fairly new in your role at midway but the question I ask of of all my guests the kind of the other one is Uh, what format is left undone? You know, I've seen years ago So I was at grapevine faith christian school for 12 years and got to that was my first head coaching job got to coach my son through high school. He just graduated last spring and one they were doing some interviews there about legacy and I wasn't trying to be Annoying to him and I'm not trying to be annoying to you either By answering your question this way, but he asked about legacy. What do you want your legacy to be? And I think I just had finally gotten to the point with coaching with culture and things like that I told him I don't worry or care about that And and he kind of went like this. I was like, well, no, no, I'm obviously when it's all said and done I'd like for it for to be a good one but my only my only focus is on being The best I can right now Not focusing on things in the future that I can't control And and so it's kind of to your question is you asked say it again. What what's still left undone? Yeah, so the the idea behind the show Is sometimes you feel like life is pulling us apart and we are unraveled and we feel like we've come apart and we're undone But then a high achiever Is different from others. They don't just sit in that wreckage. They recognize that the lord or if they're a non-believer Maybe they find something but they realize they have a purpose left yet Unfulfilled and so that undone Goes from being a negative to it's it's a purpose that's driving you forward I love that and I actually will take that first part of it and uh, I think I'm just becoming I don't uh, and I'm becoming The coach that god wants me to be I'm becoming the husband that he wants me to be And the only way that I know how to do that is Just to try to be faithful each day So at midway in my first year I just tried to do my very very best To show up and give those guys my best that day um to not leave any moment out and To leave each day thinking okay Whether we won or lost Successful or not. I gave them everything Um, I think if I keep doing that just day after day then then I'll keep becoming and I'm and I'm not trying to be deep here. That's just how I feel because Yeah, state championship would be nice. Um, I don't see myself retiring. I can't what else am I going to do? I love Coaching and I love basketball I I really just want to spend as much time with my wife janna as I can. That's my favorite thing to do And then I want to continue to grow my relationship with the lord through daily bible reading and from reading other good books And staying in the word and and memorizing more. I I want to memorize more verses and like so I don't know But but if I don't win a state championship, I know that that doesn't make me a failure Um, if if I could see it being at midway for a really long time. It's a great school This is an awesome place to live and we've got great parents and great kids Great students. So it's it's kind of a unique place. I'm 44. Yeah 44 and I don't really have Anything because well my childhood dream. I did it You know, I and not many people there's this great Little this aside now, but great little video by randy pausch called the last lecture and in that last lecture he talks about He has six months left to live and he knows that he's a professor six months left to live And he has does this last lecture about no regrets What brick walls are really in our lives for is to let us know how badly we want something And he and he goes through all this childhood dreams and how he was Over his lifetime achieving them. Even he wanted to be he wanted to be an astronaut So he went on that plane that takes you up and you're uh, you know Floating for like 10 seconds and then comes back down but All of those things I kind of feel like I did that Like I I did achieve I didn't expect to write a book or all those things are but those childhood dreams. So now I Yeah, I just want to be faithful each day and work really hard That led me to midway because if you would have told me in march of last year That I would that'd be down here. I would have probably said I don't think so So just being open and faithful to whatever he had wants me to do Get my very very best to whoever he has me leading at the time And then man enjoy all the time I have with janna I'm sorry if that's a boring answer. No, I love it I I think sometimes we can we can over program that answer and and we can be so Driven by the assignment that Just like you said about coach true like win the day every every game is your champion I mean those yeah, those things can add a lot of moments of joy So that doesn't feel like drudgery. It doesn't feel like something I have to do It feels like something I get to do and it's pulling me instead of feeling like something is is kind of pushing me as I dig my heels in So I love that you mentioned you're you've got a podcast. I know your book's available on amazon So give me some socials where to work and my listeners go to follow your work and uh and stay connected with what you're doing It's a good question. I am active and See, I think it's uh on x and instagram just at matt underscore semen You can get the book on Amazon it's the best way and then the podcast. Yeah, the gemodi podcast. I've been doing it for five years I put out one episode a week and it's just about leadership and culture but I interview coaches and leaders and Most of the time they're basketball coaches, but it's just been talk about Becoming every time I listen or have one of those talks. I feel like golly. I'm so far from You know where where where you where you can be or where coach some coaches are which is okay Not not comparing because that's the thief of all joy But just knowing that there's more that we can learn and do but that's been such a A fun hobby that has ended up really being important. Yeah, it's tremendous Matt semen here and I am undone You You know, there's something that matt said in this conversation that I just keep coming back to For most of that season. He thought it didn't matter That it was just this dark chapter that people would want to forget And yet years later, he's sitting there watching baler win a national championship And realizing that what they did mattered more than he ever understood in the moment Not because of the wins, but because they stayed They showed up they competed they believed in something that didn't yet exist And I think that's part of this story that resonates for me the most Because most of us have seasons like that I know I have Seasons where it feels like nothing we're doing is even moving the needle Seasons where it feels like we're just grinding away in isolation and obscurity Where we start to wonder if any of it is even worth it better And what this conversation reminds us is this Those might be the very seasons that are laying the foundation for everything that comes next Even if you can't see it yet Even if nobody's clapping even if it feels like it doesn't matter It does So wherever you are right now If you find yourself in one of those seasons Stay Keep showing up Keep doing the work Because you might not be in the highlight reel right now But you might be building the foundation I'm thankful to Matt for dropping in and I hope you enjoyed our conversation For more info on today's episode be sure to check it out on the web Simply go to undunpodcast.com back slash ep 153 to see the notes links and images related to today's guest matt saman Some quick updates about the show we dropped a ton since the last episode, but we bounced back kind of After consistently being at number four in both education and self-improvement categories Tied for the best standing and show history we dropped down to eighth Before rebounding and as of this morning. I'm happy to say that we're back at number four at the same time sadly across all categories We dropped out of apple's top 200 for the time being but a little setback or adversity has never been reason to complain around these parts Just means there's an opportunity ahead So i'm hoping to get back in there between now and the next time we meet if you want to follow along and see our progress for yourself You can now go to undunpodcast.com back slash rankings and cheer me on in the last month We've had more than 14 000 downloads and we aren't done yet If you'd be so kind as to share the show with a friend or leave a comment or a review that would be so sincerely appreciated Last episode I introduced something new that I plan to be doing each episode It's kind of weird But I call it the teal of the week if you listen to my multi-part larry johnson series You heard me talk about how my deep love for teal started back in high school with lj and the hornets It's not just a 90 staple to me. It's a trademark. It's my signature color And if you're watching on video, you'll notice that although the new studio is brimman full of color For this episode. I was just wearing black t-shirt But now as I record this commentary for this episode I am wearing my current absolute favorite shirt that lives in my closet It's a long sleeve jordan brand charlotte hornets shooting shirt And I love how it feels. I love how it fits. I'm a performance scientist and I like to let my data do my deciding So over the years and the data backs me up on this I've learned that the environments that we create right down to how we decorate our space what we choose to wear All those things can influence how we show up So for me teal has become that cue For me, it's become this subconscious signal that represents clarity and energy and focus It's a small but consistent way to signal to myself. It's time to be present. It's time to be intentional It's time to do this and do it well So each week i'll be wearing a different teal shirt. I'm usually tied to a team or a program Just as a way to keep that rhythm and that consistency So this week, it's one of my first teal teams the hornets back in the day I had an original hornet starter jacket Charlotte windbreaker one of those super cool magic johnson all over print hornets tees I've been looking for one of those on ebay for a minute, but they are rare and when I find them They're like 150 bucks for a 30 year old t-shirt. I just can't force myself to do it I actually have a senior picture in my cheap knockoff larry johnson hornets replica jersey But all that to say the hornets and I go way back So when I slip on this particular shirt, whether i'm headed to the office to knock out some work Headed to the gym to lift or headed to the court to play. I just feel better And as prime time maybe said at best Years ago I have a famous quote that you recognize. It said look good Feel good feel good play good play good. You pay good. See you thought that quote was all about sports It's not That quote is about you and it's about life Because if you look good you feel good if you feel good you perform good if you perform good Look up next They pay me So never underestimate that look That presence that jenny said come on what you're trying to attract Because you got it Don't give up on you, but it all starts with you Maybe you got to look Coming up on the show I've got former division one strength coach turned pastor christmas McCormick I've also got a couple of other guests that i'm super excited about but i'm not going to jinx myself till I get those interviews recorded Keeping them to myself. So let's just say there's more incredible conversations headed your way on becoming undone Becoming undone is a night trap creative production written and produced by me toby brooks Tell a friend about the show and follow along on facebook instagram and linked in at becoming undone pod and follow me at toby brooks phd on facebook instagram and linked in Check out my link tree at linked r.ee backslash toby brooks phd Listen subscribe and leave me a review on apple podcasts spotify i heart radio or wherever you get your podcasts Till next time keep getting better You