Episode 359: A Roadmap to Technology (and Fun) for Families with Catherine Price

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As a leading voice in the national conversation about technology and human flourishing, her goal is to help people of all ages scroll less and live more. You all, this conversation is packed with so many nuggets about technology and kids. Make sure to listen to the whole thing and grab your journal to take notes too. Katherine, your new book The Amazing Generation is such a hopeful reframing of childhood and we'd love to hear what inspired you to write the book and what do you hope parents understand about today's kids that we might be missing? Sure. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm really delighted to be joining you today. And yes, The Amazing Generation is the new book that I co-authored with Jonathan Hyte, who is the author of the mega bestseller, The Anxious Generation. And the backstory to the book is that I'd known of John and his work for quite some time and I personally wrote a book called How to Break Up with Your Phone for adults and older teens followed by a book called The Power of Fun. So I was writing about this issue from a different angle and I was very excited when I found out that he was working on what became The Anxious Generation because my own daughter was about eight at the time. She's now 10. And I thought, thank goodness, there's someone who's really addressing this issue head on. So as many of your listeners probably know, The Anxious Generation has led to all of these changes around the world. Parents taking collective action together, regulations being developed, legislators taking action. It's really been amazing. And so he and I actually started teaming up just so that I can help support the movement that his book helped to spark. And at some point there was a discussion of trying to create a version of The Anxious Generation that could speak to young readers. And my ears perked up because in addition to writing How to Break Up with Your Phone and The Power of Fun, I spent a lot of my early years as a freelancer teaching and tutoring middle school through high school kids. And I love that age range. I love writing for that age range. I think my adult writing style actually also caters to that age range. And so long story short, we ended up working on this new book together that quickly became much more than just a readers, a young readers adaptation of The Anxious Generation, which I think is what was the plan to start with. But it turned into this new book that really combined The Anxious Generation with my books, How to Break Up with Your Phone and The Power of Fun, with the goal of speaking directly to kids and inspiring them to make wise decisions about technology for themselves. And also, and really importantly, to fill their lives with lots of good things. And we talk in the book about, and we can get into this more real friendships and real freedom and real fun. And I think that's something to answer your question like, parents don't recognize is that if we're going to be talking about what to do with technology, which is an essential and urgent conversation, we also need to be talking about how can we help our kids fill the time that they would have spent on screens with real life experiences and adventures. And what ages primarily are you all targeting with this book? Well, that's a great question. We were trying to target a wide range of ages, including kids who don't have smartphones and social media accounts yet, but also not leaving out kids who already have smartphones and social media accounts. So to answer your question, the book is probably, it's appropriate for kids, I would say ages nine or so on up. So fourth grade on up, I would say. We've heard some kids as young as third grade actually getting stuff out of it. But we've also heard from older teenagers and even adults getting something out of the book. And the reason that that's working is that we very deliberately designed the book to work on multiple levels. So there's the text that John and I worked really hard on that, you know, hopefully, hopefully readers will actually read. But if they don't, because we knew that in the younger end of our readership, they might not sit down and read an entire nonfiction book. We also incorporated all these other elements. So we have a graphic novel that's built into the book illustrated by this fantastic illustrator named Cynthia Yuan Cheng. And then we also have all these little boxes and pop outs that give kids things to try on their own or with their friends and families. And then I think most importantly, we gathered lots of anecdotes from older teens and then young adults about their experiences with screens and the advice they wish that they could share with the younger generation based on their own experiences and in many cases, regrets. So if you look at the book, it's full color. I'm just truly delighted with how it turned out. It's got this graphic novel. There's an element on every page that's designed to pull your attention in and get you engaged regardless of whether you're nine years old or 16 years old or in some cases like an actual full-fledged adult. You should be delighted with how it turned out. We are as well. And it's a required read. We'll be talking about with families for quite some time. So thank you for your investment in that work. And we love to also dive in and talk a little bit about within this conversation. You talk about cultivating awe, wonder and curiosity. Why do you believe these are qualities so essential for kids growing up in this age of distraction and overstimulation? Well, I think awe and wonder and curiosity are important for people of all ages. And that's been something that's been very interesting in the discussion around the amazing generation is that I feel like the conversation around kids is making an adult start to recognize like, oh, wait a second, we're also missing out on some really important, wonderful aspects of life. So I think that awe, yes, I said, awe and wonder and curiosity are important for everybody because I think that those are really the some of the keys to living a fun and meaningful and rewarding life. And I think it's important for people of all ages to be able to be more present in the moment and present in our own experiences. One thing I wrote about and how to break up with your phone that really stuck with me from the process was the idea that our lives are really what we pay attention to. You're only going to remember what you pay attention to, you're only going to experience what you pay attention to. And it means that anytime we make a decision about what to pay attention to, we're really making a much bigger decision about how to live our lives. That's a pretty, I don't know, weighty thing to keep in mind all the time. What do you want to pay attention to? But I think it's essential. And I think that if you cultivate the ability to notice and appreciate opportunities for awe or wonder or also just following your curiosity, that's going to help direct your attention toward the real world. And as a result, you're going to end up with many, many more memories, much richer memories, more rewarding relationships. I mean, everything is just going to feel much more full color if you're able to prioritize seeking out and appreciating opportunities for awe and wonder and then following your curiosity. Yes. Well, I love that you're talking about some of your previous work because a lot of what you talk about talks about the impact of smartphones on our brain's relationship. And attention as you're talking about where we're where we're focusing that. And we would love to know how you see technology shaping this generation for better and or for worse. Well, it's shaping all of us and particularly young people. And I'm not a Luddite. I think that there are many useful uses of technology. I mean, we're doing this right over over a computer. Technology enhances our lives in many, many, many ways. But at the same time, right now, the balance I think is totally out of whack where young people and honestly, all of us are spending the majority of our leisure time. In many cases are waking hours on screens. And more concerningly, especially for young people, we are using apps and programs that have designed by companies that don't have our best interest in mind. Because in the case of the most problematic apps out there like social media or video games, they're designed to harvest as much of our time and attention as possible because that's how the designers of those apps and games make money. And I think what's important for all of us to recognize when it comes to our kids is that they're in a period of rapid brain development. You know, as you of course know, there's two periods of really rapid brain development in the human life span. The two biggest ones when you're a baby and your brain is just growing for the first time, developing new cells, new connections between the cells. But then the second period is in adolescence, early adolescence through your teen years where your brain is deciding which connections to keep and which directions to let wither away. You know, it's very much like you've got a hedge and you're pruning it into a topiary. That's what your brain is doing when you're an early adolescent and a teenager. And some of the connections that you strengthen during that period are going to stick around for your whole life. There are a lot of ways in which your teenage brain is going to be your adult brain. I mean, our brains are constantly changing as adults too. We can learn stuff, but this is a particularly as scientists call it plastic, like flexible period of brain development. And so I really think it's important for parents, including myself to be thinking about who do we want to be in control of our kids brains? Do we want to have a tech company be shaping our kids brains? Or do we want to protect our kids brains from these, the influence of companies that do not have their best interest in mind? And so I think that's ultimately really what's at stake there. And it's why I feel so passionately about the idea that we need to be very protective of our kids when it comes to technology and very careful about what we allow them to do and how much time we allow them to spend online. And to answer your question, they think the possible consequences, they're very, very, very large variety of consequences. One of the most concerning is attention spans. If you're constantly watching short form content on say YouTube or TikTok, that's training your brain to be distractible. And in case of our, in case of adults, I encounter a lot of people through my work with how to break up with your phone who say things like, I can't read a book anymore, let alone, I mean, I can't even read a magazine article, let alone a book. But they used to be able to concentrate adults for the most part used to be, they had put the work in to develop the ability to read a book. When you're talking about a nine or 10 year old, they haven't actually developed that ability to the same degree yet. So it's even worse to then facilitate them spending hours a day watching short form content that's designed to distract you. Okay, I love that you extracted that very idea. That was actually where I was hoping to go next. And in a question, thinking about how it impacts focus, would you talk a little bit as well about how it affects mood and self regulation? Sure. I think one of the, to actually go back to a question you asked right at the beginning of this conversation, something that parents don't recognize is how different our social media feeds are. Compared to kids social media feeds. Adults have lots of issues with social media. Did not get me wrong. Like the doom scrolling is a thing for adults as well. But through my research and through preparing for the talks that I give, I've had to kind of look at some examples of what's being shown in kids and teenagers feeds. And it is really, really horrifying to see how quickly young users are being fed into these rabbit holes of really distressing content that to answer your question can have profound effects on self-esteem. I mean, you have the separate issue of potentially being bullied through these platforms and through smartphones where anyone who's being mean or tormenting you at school is now coming home with you in your pocket. Bullies have 24 hour access to you. But then you also have this issue where because these companies main goal is just to make money by sucking us in, getting us to spend more time on their products. They don't care about the content. They're not liable for the content that's being shown to anybody. And so there was a really interesting expose a couple of years ago by the Wall Street Journal that looked into why TikTok's algorithm in particular was so effective at getting people to spend lots and lots of time on it. And they did this experiment where they posed as young users. So they created these bot accounts and just notice what the algorithm did if these bot accounts pause for like a millisecond on various types of content. Say the bot was like feeling sad. So it paused for like a fraction, you know, like a blink of an eye on something having to do with mental health. It did not take long before that spiraled out into videos about self-harm and in extreme cases suicide. And the same happened with bots that expressed an interest in healthy eating, like genuinely interested in healthy eating. That started to spiral out into videos about bulimia and anorexia. So it's really terrifying to begin to understand, to pay attention to what is being shown to kids. It is not what is in our feeds. And I actually seen some of this stuff for, I mean, there's, there's like online communities where girls are just showing how deeply they're cutting themselves or how deeply they're, you know, self-harming and you get more likes and comments based on how extreme it is. Like that's what's happening. And so I think it's actually kind of nuts to think that these platforms would not have an effect on our mental health and especially on young people when you consider what's being shown to them. Which makes you really grateful that you have a 30 day phone breakup challenge because we all need to be doing that. And it's helped so many adults reset their relationships with their devices. We would love for you to talk about what parts of that challenge specifically do you think translate beautifully into parenting and family life and are their kid friendly adaptations. Yeah, so what you're referring to is then in how to break up with your phone, I included a 30 day plan for how to develop better habits and better boundaries when it comes to your phone and other devices. And I did that very much for myself. It was when my daughter was a baby, I noticed I was spending more time on my phone than I wanted to when I was with her. And I was looking around for a solution and couldn't find one. So I decided to write a book. And that really has, I mean, the response to that has been so inspiring. It makes me sad because we need it so badly, but I'm also really happy to be able to offer a plan to people to help people decide what they want to pay attention to and then develop habits to support that. So there's definitely ways that that can be adapted to a family context, in particular the idea of just taking regular breaks from devices and establishing some phone free spaces and times as a family like the dinner table or making sure that screens are not in the bedroom overnight. I actually am about to launch a PDF on my website. That's actually a seven day challenge specifically for families that kind of combined some of the ideas from the amazing generation for kids with how to break up with your phone. That families can do together. So it's like a one week plan. We will link to that in the show notes. That's amazing. Yeah, that'll be great. It's a, yeah, it's, it'll be hot off the presses. And then I'd also say you can use the new book that I co-authored with Jonathan Haidt, The Amazing Generation with Your Family, by just leaving it out. Like if you've got kids in the age range we're talking about, you know, say nine to nine to 13, nine to 16 or so, just leave the book out and see what happens. And then I always encourage parents to, if you're going to have a conversation or begin a conversation with your kid about the book, say to them, I'd really love you to read this and then help me with my own screen habits. You know, and teach me something that you learned from this book because that makes such a difference. Kids are so used to being lectured at by us and they're so used to, as we all are, getting fights over screen time with each other. It becomes an us versus them thing between parents and kids. But in reality, we're all being manipulated by the tech companies. And it makes such a difference in terms of the way that, well, you know, this obviously I'm saying what you know, but you know, if a kid feels like they're on the level playing field with an adult or even that they have something to teach an adult, that just completely changes the power dynamic. And it makes kids much, much, much more receptive to things otherwise they might just shut down about. So I really recommend saying like, yeah, can you teach me something based on what you learned here or ask your kid, like, can you tell me anything about my screen habits that you'd like me to change? Like, how do you feel when I'm on my phone when we're together? Just be prepared to be heartbroken by their responses. But I found that that's a really effective way to have conversations that don't feel like confrontations. And that also changed the dynamic. So, yeah, as I was saying, it's not you versus your kids. It's this recognition that all of us need to be standing up against big tech. 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Is there one small win, like one first doable step that I could take that could be helpful in changing the habits? What would you recommend? It's always so hard to just say one. The first thing that comes to mind just has to do with the positive angle that it's really not about taking something away. It's about filling, creating space for something better. And so I think that it can be very useful to brainstorm individually and as a family. Fun things that you like to do or that you want to do, either, you know, your kids with their friends or your whole family together, or you as an adult on your own and actually make a list of those things so that you have pre-identified things that you enjoy that you want to do and then make a priority out of doing those things. I'd also say that it is really important for parents to model the habits they want their kids to have. Like we can't be telling our kids like you can't scroll, you can't spend all that time. When we're checking sports scores under the table, you know, we're looking at Instagram while we're putting our kids to bed. Like we can't do that. So I really would encourage parents in a non-judgmental and non-like, we don't need to feel more guilty about it. We do need to look in the mirror a bit. But the good part about that is any improvement we make to our own habits will help our kids and it's going to feel good. It's going to bring your family closer. So there'll be a couple things. But I was alluding to you before, I also would say it's absolutely essential to not have screens in the bedroom overnight and to create some of these phone free spaces in the house. And the bedroom thing is particularly important because of one not positive thing that I didn't mention before, which is just the risks that exist for kids online and the number of adult predators who are victimizing children through these platforms in ways that are like mind-blowingly awful, like the sex torsion that is happening, the bad things. And I think that as parents, we can often think that we're keeping our kids safe by keeping them in the house instead of letting them outside to play, let alone unsupervised. But as John points out in the anxious generation, you know, we have really radically overprotected our kids outside, but then underprotected them online because you might know that your kids in their bedroom with their phone, but you actually have no idea where they are on the internet or like who on the internet is contacting them. Catherine, what would be a recommended roadmap when it comes to technology? Yeah, it's a question I get a lot and I think about a lot as the parent of a 10-year-old. So I think, again, that there's solutions for us. So here's what I would recommend to parents. If your kids are young enough that they do not yet have smartphones or devices, including iPads, iPads seem to get a free pass for some reason, but they're basically just giant iPhones. Delay for as long as possible. Like a little kid does not need their own iPad. You could watch stuff on the family television if you're going to do that. You could FaceTime the grandparents via your phone. Delay that. When your kids are old enough that they're starting to have conversations with family members, I actually really, really love the idea of getting a family landline that your kid can use to talk to their relatives and also eventually to their friends. I know that a lot of adults think of landlines as something that are really expensive that you need a phone plan to get, but that's no longer the case. There's actually phones that you can just use your internet connection to place calls over. There's a couple of brands on the market. There's Uma for all ages. There's one called Tin Can that's becoming wildly popular for kids. Highly recommend this because then you can actually give your kids practice having conversations with other people, which is a skill that a lot of young people never have developed these days. Yes. And they can also have more freedom. You can say, all right, you can't have screens in your bedroom, but go ahead, take the telephone and go have a conversation with your best friend in your private-year bedroom like it's 1995. Yes. And that's actually really thrilling for kids these days because they are so controlled and they're so surveilled and they're so monitored. So I really encourage a house landline and it can be very useful for the adults too. So then when your kids get a little older and maybe they're starting to do more things out of the house, maybe they're going on these let grow experiences we were talking about, then you can do something like get a family loaner phone, which can be a very basic phone like a flip phone or a smartphone alternative, which I'll talk about in a second that doesn't really belong to anyone in the family. You just give it out when your kid needs it and then they give it back when they're done. That works really well for younger kids. And then I would say when your kid starts to do enough things out of the house or they develop enough friendships where you're like, okay, I think it's time for you to actually have your own mobile phone. Don't go directly to an Android or an iPhone. I think that's the thing traditionally we parents have thought is like it's all or nothing. It's black or white. It's like no phone or it's an iPhone. And kids would like to just to think that in many cases. There's actually a whole bunch of smartphone alternatives on the market these days, which are basically phones that allow various functions, mostly calling and texting. Some of them have some additional things like music players or maps built in that they don't have unfettered internet access and they don't have social media and they have very limited games. You can find those if you just Google smartphone alternative online. But there's things like the bark phone. There's the pinwheel. There's gab. There's the gizmo as a watch. There's also the option to get a flip phone and there's a great website called dumb wireless.com. That's kind of a clearing house for a bunch of these flip phones. And they're coming back. I've seen a whole group of tween girls arguing over which flip phone they wanted to get. So I'd recommend that as a way to give your kid more independence out of the house, help them connect with their friends without giving them access to the whole internet and without giving the entire internet access to your child. And then I would say if and when you decide your kid is ready for a full fledged smartphone, which I would, John height talks about waiting until at least high school. But I know from knowing him, he would actually say that it should be later as would I. It's just what was achievable. So maybe 16 ish. Then you need to be very careful about setting up parental controls on the iPhone. You actually have to do the work to and work with your kid to set limits on time to figure out what controls you want to have on it. But you're going to be opening up a whole can of worms. So I think it's Jean Twenge who talks about how you can have like multiple fights with your kids about screen time and phones. I'm sorry, you can have one fight, which is whether or not to give them the phone or you can give them the phone and then have multiple fights on all fronts all the time every day. So use that as motivation. But I would say wait as long as possible. Yeah. And then if your kid does already have a smartphone and social media account or plays a lot of video games, I would say please don't beat yourself up over whatever decisions you made in the past. Like all of society is having a real reckoning moment where it comes to when it comes to these devices and these apps. We are all waking up to this. So the past is in the past, but going forward, you can make a decision to change how your kid interacts with technology. And it may be hard and they may be very unhappy at you. But I would say the more they push back on the idea of you setting more boundaries or perhaps even deciding that they cannot be on social media or that they will have to switch to a basic phone, the bigger of a response you get, the more it's probably necessary. Because a lot of cases, as I'm sure that you both have seen, if a parent takes a video game away from a kid who's really been playing a lot or takes a kid off of social media, you're going to see a lot of the same symptoms that you would see if you took a drug away from someone who was addicted to the drug. So I would say that it's never too late to change course and please trust your gut, parents. Like please, you know when something is not right with your kid. You know if they've been not themselves and you suspect it has to do with technology. Like please pay attention to that and please do not be afraid to take a stand. It's very important. That is our role as adults is to keep our kids safe and most of the threats these days are from these devices. And I'd also say it's very important for parents to be aware of a new huge threat that's on the horizon. And in many cases is already here, which is what AI is doing in terms of our children. There's obviously issues with how kids are using AI in their school work, which is a whole separate conversation. But there is a huge issue happening right now with deep fakes that are happening using AI. So generating images of classmates, you know, nude or doing lewd things or even videos in some cases. And then there's also this issue of chatbots that are actually designed to encourage people to create romantic relationships with them. And a lot of this is happening on traditional platforms like Instagram. I mean, there's been, don't get me started on how Mark Zuckerberg has been in the press about wanting to have fewer safeguards for children. But there also are apps that parents may not have heard of yet, like Character AI or replica. And there's actually like a lot of them where people are encouraged to make their own, in many cases, girlfriends, fewer cases, boyfriends. And then have a sexual romantic relationship with them. And in the best case scenario, your kid is learning to not have a human relationship. Because why would you go through the bother of a messy human relationship where the other person might have emotions and might actually not always agree with you? Like why would you do that if you could just stay in your room and not be embarrassed and not feel awkward and just have this affirming chatbot? But then in extreme cases, and for reasons I fully, I really don't understand, there have been some cases where these chatbots have encouraged kids to hurt themselves and then in the most extreme cases actually to kill themselves. And I remember reading one heartbreaking story about parents who lost their son to suicide. They were aware of many of the risks of social media, but they didn't realize that this Character AI app on their kid's phone was something to be concerned about. So I would just say, please parents, pay attention to this growing problem of AI chatbots. And I would say our children should not have relationships with a computer program and stop like in no way. That is just, you should talk to them about it and you should be very on top of it. That is very dystopian and just horrible, horrible for the fate of our species. Thank you so much for sharing that. So in the amazing generation, if we flip back to that, you highlight the extraordinary potential in today's kids, which we certainly see as well. Will you talk about what conditions help unlock that potential and what maybe even sometimes gets in the way? Sure. Yeah, kids are amazing and they're so insightful. One of the things I've really been impressed by since the amazing generation came out is the reactions from real kids and the insights they've been having. So to give you an example of that, I have a friend whose kid plays, he used to play, I don't know what he's doing now, a ton of Fortnite. And he read the amazing generation and then he said to his parents, he's like, you know, I really love Fortnite, but I don't know that it's a hobby. Like, I don't really know that it's making me more interesting or really adding that much to my life. So I'd love your help in cultivating more hobbies. And so, yeah. And so he and his parents brainstormed and now, you know, he's doing more stuff offline and they actually have a regular family date to go to the climbing gym in their area. So and I've seen that. It's really amazing. And I've given talks at my daughter's school and at other schools for fourth graders on up to high schoolers and just the level of encycleness these kids have. Like, it's really astonishing that kid was in fifth grade. So I think that kids have huge potential for these insights and also they've got such creativity if we get out of the way. So I think in many cases, it's a matter of getting them off of screens, but giving them the opportunity to do more stuff. And one of the ideas that we have in the amazing generation is called the let grow experience, which was developed by this woman, Lenore Scanesi, who started an organization called let grow, which is basically the idea that the more kids are able to do and the more experiences they have on their own and they're going to feel more confident and they're going to feel more competent and they're going to be less anxious. And so she proposes this really simple idea that's incredibly powerful, which again is called the let grow experience, which is that you brainstorm with your kids. Things they'd like to do or try that they're excited about or maybe even a little scared about. And then you figure out how to enable them to do those things with your permission, but without you. And then you deal with your own anxiety and then you see what happens next. So it could be, depending on the age of your kid, like say you live, I live in urban Philadelphia, it could be as little as like you go to the grocery store together and you let them go to a different aisle and like find ingredients for tonight's dinner in that space. Or it could be they take the dog for a walk or they go over to their friend's house on their own or they walk to school or they start a little business like my daughter's been trying to do a book sale on our stoop selling my books. It is not brought in, not paying the mortgage yet, but it's like, or we let her go into Target and she figured out how to use the self checkout on her own. She's about 10 now and you know, no adult can figure out the self checkout. And then she was asked for help and there was this very nice employee who helped her out and the employee was so delighted about the interaction that she gave our daughter a hug at the end. And then our daughter came out and met my husband in the parking lot and she said exactly what Lenore Scanesi predicts that kids will say when they have these experiences. My daughter said to my husband, I did it myself. She was so proud of herself and it just gave us as parents this confidence that if we get out of the way and you know, we provide her with support, but like, and we can help her make a plan. But if we get out of the way and let her try and do more things, it's good for all of us. So that's something I really recommend that parents try and there's actually a ton of free resources at let grow.org that parents can use and also schools can use because there's a lot of schools that are actually using the let grow experiences and assignment. Which is really cool in my opinion. And then the kids report back and they can like create a they've got a kit where you create a tree on the classroom wall and each leaf is a different like row experience that a kid has done and so they can see each others and say like, oh, I want to try that one or oh, how did you do that? I just think wonderful. I guess the point being like, there's so much scary stuff about this discussion about technology and I do think it's really important for us as parents and adults not to keep our head in the sand and like recognize that these products are really important. That these products are like end stop inherently unsafe for children. Children should not be on social media and they really should not have smartphones until at least high school if not beyond. But with that said, there is a solution and it's easier than we might think if we take action together and our kids are more open, especially younger kids are more open to this message that we might think. And that's really surprised me about the response of the amazing generation is these younger kids like nine to 12, 13 year olds, they are like in it. They really like the idea of being cool by doing real life stuff. And that analog revolution is happening for older older kids and even adults too. Awesome. Yes. I loved I have to tell you I was laughing inside as you were unpacking that experiment. I love it. I was imagining parents saying, yes, yes, I want that for my kids. Yes. And then I love when you got at the part about and you get to manage your own. Parents are saying no, no, no. Yeah, there's a video online of a woman who let her kid go into Chick-fil-A alone and she was I mean it's like ironic because she filmed it for Instagram to put it on social media. But it's it's really interesting because her anxiety is palpable. And you know, I think we've all felt that type of anxiety as parents. But then when you watch it in someone else, it's very interesting because it's like, what would happen? I think that's also important for us as parents to ask ourselves. It's not like we're sending our kids on like a sailboat across the Atlantic or something on their own. It's like if you're sitting in the car and your kid is going to pick something up from Chick-fil-A, like maybe we need to take a deep breath and think it's probably going to be okay, you know, agreed. Okay, I need to confess something. Patches staged a silent protest this week. A protest? She could not get settled in my bed circling, sighing dramatically, flopping down, getting back up. And then I realized I had washed the bedding and forgot to put the bowl and branch sheets back on. Do you have some entitlement to work through? Yes. In her defense, I get it. She's got great taste. And here's the thing. Most people keep their bedding way longer than they should. Sheets start pilling, corners pop off, pillows flatten. 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You know, we are firm believers that we all need a little more laughter and a whole lot more grace. And if you are raising a child with ADHD, dyslexia, autism, or another learning and thinking difference, you know how intense some days can feel. The advocacy, the school meetings, the meltdowns, the moments when you wonder if you're getting any of it right. If that hits home, we recently found a podcast we think you'll really appreciate. It's called Everyone Gets a Juice Box for Parents of Neurodivergent Kids. Check out a few episodes, including one about parenting regrets after an ADHD and autism diagnosis, and another about how, quote, fine isn't always fine when it comes to dyslexia. You'll appreciate the tone, it's honest, it's warm, it's funny in the way that only parents who truly get it can be. You can hear the relief in their voices when they realize they're not alone. It feels like sitting down with other parents who understand the mysteries, the multiple diagnosis, and the beauty in the middle of it all. If you could use that kind of community and encouragement, we really think you'll like it. To listen, search for Everyone Gets a Juice Box in your podcast app. That's Everyone Gets a Juice Box. Okay, we talked a little earlier about how technology could diminish focus. Let's go the opposite direction for a second. I love that a primary theme in your work is reclaiming attention. What would you say are some practical rhythms or family habits that would help kids strengthen their attention in a screen saturated world? Yes, there's a lot of different habits that adults and kids can take to increase attention span. So a couple off the top of my head. One for people of all ages is just reading, like read an actual book. Not online, it actually is different to read something online versus reading a book. I would say like a paper white Kindle is probably okay. That's one of the ones that does not allow you to access the internet or to follow links. But ideal is actually just an old fashioned book. And for adults, I'd say start with 10 minutes and build up. You probably will build that up more quickly than you might fear or anticipate. But for kids, reading is really important. Being read to is really important. Sustaining your attention. Honestly, actually even like a screen based thing like watching a movie together as a family where no one is on a screen, believe it or not, that can help attention because it's a two hour long story. But I would also say as kids get older and they get homework or if they have school issued laptops, which separate conversation really we should be rethinking. But if your kid is doing homework, establish a practice where there's not distractions around. Like your kid should not be trying to do homework while they have a phone or while they've got a messaging app open on the computer. There needs to be boundaries to protect our attention. And you may need to step in as an adult and actually help create and enforce those boundaries because that's something where kids with their underdeveloped prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain that can make decisions like, alright, I'm going to have undistracted time. It's not fully developed. So we do have a role to play. And there are tools that you can use in addition to just saying to your kids, okay, no devices in the room while you're getting your homework done or no TV on while you're trying to do your homework. We could also use parental control apps or app blockers. There's a lot of them on the market now to actually create schedules where you and your family, kids and adults included have access or don't have access to particular apps or websites or the entire internet. Like you can actually sign up for a plan with your internet service provider where you could say like after 10 p.m. There's just like no internet access in the house. But I think it's very, very, very important to help your kids get in the habit of learning how to create boundaries with tech when they are focusing and recognizing that technology. If you have multiple, if you're trying to pay attention to more than one thing at once, it's going to actually make you much less efficient. So if you want to get your homework done quickly, do not also be texting your friends. So good. And it's essential. I mean, you really can't emphasize that enough. I do think that the fragmentation of attention is harming all of us in ways that we don't even talk about. Like I think a lot of the exhaustion and burnout that adults feel is because our attention is so fragmented. And we're trying to take in so much information at once from so many different sources, respond to texts and emails and listen to the news and pay attention to our kids like all of this. And our brains just can't handle it. Makes me tired hearing you say it. Can I just tell you as we're talking? No, it's so good. And it reminds me, I was so challenged in hearing you answer that question at the top of our conversation about a book because I was on a flight last week, walked to the back of the plane to go to the restroom, was walking back up and I just had this moment of being struck by how many people on the flight were on a phone, a tablet or a laptop. And I walked to the back and thought, I should just count. I'll just, it was almost full flight. Five people were asleep. One person, one person on the whole flight had an actual book in their hand. Everyone else had a phone, a tablet or a laptop. And I thought, it is the way we pass time in the world now. And so the idea of opening an old school book, it's becoming like a lost art. So I love that you challenge that in that way. That's, I do that same thing. We're the creepy people in the plane who are just like, hmm, that's kind of, I mean, it's horribly depressing as an author, right? I'm like, why, why, why bother? But you did remind me that, you know, I also think attention building does not need to be as formal as like reading a book. There's so many ways we can build our attention, like playing an instrument, you know, having a hobby that requires you to focus and be in flow, like playing sports. Like that's a form of focused attention. So I don't think it's always a matter of trying to get your kid to, you know, sit down and build your attention by reading this book. You know, many kids aren't going to do that to begin with. There's so many ways, but the key thing to recognize is that sounds really obvious. But in order to build your attention, you have to get better at avoiding distractions. And you need to find more ways to get your brain into flow, the state where you're totally engaged with the thing you're doing to the point that you lose track of time in a good way. And it also, you know, a real plug for, and you reminded me of this with your plane story, for doing nothing once in a while, like giving our brains time and space to wander and daydream and just think and relax, you know, like, and with kids in the car, like, that's a great opportunity. And I really recommend to parents do not just hand your kid a tablet in the car to pass the time on car rides. It's just a step. I understand I'm a parent myself, so I get it. I get the urge, but that's such an opportunity to look out the window and just think and engage with your creativity. Maybe listen to an audio book. Like that's a very different experience from staring at a tablet. Yes, but I think that for all of us, like our brains just need some time and space to relax. Yes, I know. And they also need fun, which we love that you have written and talked so much about play and fun because we wholeheartedly agree in all of that too, in shared experiences. And we'd love for you to talk about some simple, everyday ways families can cultivate deeper joy, connection and presence. Sure. Yeah, so I wrote a whole book about fun. I did a TED talk about it and I was fascinated by it because it's a word we use all the time, but if you really drill down and start to think about it, it's not very easy to define. And a lot of companies act like their products are fun, but it doesn't really match up with the experience of fun that you hear from people. As I did ask them for their memories of fun, like social media is actually not fun. Yes. Like when I asked, I asked thousands of people for stories about fun and not a single one said it happened on Instagram. All of people's moments of fun happen in person. Well, sometimes it was like you could have fun over a call if you're using the technology as a way to connect with someone else, but mostly in person, a special shared experience with a playful attitude where there were no distractions and you were totally engrossed and present in your experience. So when I give talks about fun, I talk about it as a Venn diagram because I was a big dork where you've got three circles of playfulness, connection, that shared experience, and flow, that feeling of getting lost in the moment. When those three things come together, playfulness, connection, and flow, that's when we really have fun. And so there's a lot of things that families and individuals can do to cultivate more of what I call true fun. It really boils down to finding more opportunities for playfulness, for connection, and for flow for being totally engaged. So a couple ideas for how families can do that. One that I particularly love is to start a delight practice, which is an idea I got from a poet and author named Ross Gay, who wrote a book called The Poverty Enough, The Book of Delights. And it's a very simple practice where you just make a point of going throughout your everyday life and noticing things that delight you. And you kind of define that for yourself, you know, maybe it's something that's beautiful or really just enjoyable or maybe it's something a little bit silly or absurd. So it could be a beautiful flower. It could be, in my case, I have a picture I showed during talks of a squirrel doing this very funny pose outside my kitchen window that I caught when I looked up from my computer. Just something that makes you laugh or smile. And when you notice these little delights, this is very important. You put a finger in the air and you go delight out loud, which will make most people feel silly. But there's actually scientific evidence behind the idea that labeling positive things and giving them a name and then saying the name out loud and accompanying it with a physical gesture. I'm putting my finger in the air for the people who are listening to this. That actually helps the positive experience sink in more and it becomes even more effective if you share it with other people. And so one thing my family does that I invite everyone listening to try is we have, well, we have a delight practice. So my daughter, as I said, she's 10 now. She'll regularly say delight and point something out that's delightful, which is a lovely, delightful moment of bonding for us. But we also have a delight jar that we keep in the kitchen with little scraps of paper so we can write down delights and put them in the jar. And then if we're having a down day or if we want to find something to talk about at the dinner table, we can pull out a delight and then have this shared memory together. So that's one kind of straightforward, free, easy thing families can do that also works with adults. Like I do text chains about delights with friends I don't see often and I actually think that's a wonderful use of technology. And then the other thing is just like find more opportunity, put your phones away when you're together with your families because that's going to disrupt flow. Anything that distracts you will kick you out of flow because flow is a totally focused state. And that will help encourage connection, the idea that you can have these shared experiences with your kids. And then playfulness, that's something that a lot of adults recoil against because I think we think it means you have to be silly or like a class clown. But it's just having a lighthearted attitude and finding ways to laugh together. And one thing I found, like there's lots of ways to do this. One way is to just figure out ways to delight each other, like just do things deliberately to delight one another and make each other laugh. But I have to put in a plug for this gag gift my husband got me for Christmas, which is a 30 second dance party button. It's like a button and you hit it and it goes 30 second dance party and then it plays music for 30 seconds. That's amazing. Incredible. And that's an example. I want this. Yeah, like how to bring a little bit of fun. And it changes the mood. So if you're like really annoyed at your children or they're annoyed at you and then someone hits the 30 second dance party and you've like agreed as a family that you have to obey the 30 second dance party. That is really helps. So anyway, there's a couple of concrete things you can do. I'm going to buy one of those today. Same. And the delight idea. I love that so much. Catherine, that's beautiful. Gosh. This conversation. Delight. I love it. I think I said it. Delight. Yeah. It's all Roske. His book is amazing too. The book of delights. Okay. If you could leave parents with one encouragement about raising the amazing generation, what would it be? And what even brings you hope about this generation of kids? Well, the encouragement I think I would give people is it feels really daunting. It feels like an impossible task to figure out how to deal with kids in tech. But the reality is if we work together, it's easier than we fear. Because the real challenge, you know, the fear I hear from parents when we talk about for younger kids delaying the age of smartphones and social media is what if my kids left out? Like they might be totally on board with all the other issues surrounding tech and they're like, yes, I get it. Like real life is better, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like what if my kids left out? Well, there's a simple solution to that, which is to get other families to join you. And one thing that's been extremely heartening about seeing the response to the amazing generation and just what's going on in the zeitgeist right now. Everyone feels this way. You know, the majority of people have concerns about kids and technology. We just have felt scared, too scared to act on it because we're worried our kids are going to be left out. Well, if you find just a couple other families, it doesn't need to be everyone. You're not going to get everybody. Just a couple of other families who are on board who can agree with you that you're going to delay the age, you know, that you're going to give your kids these devices or if they already have these devices or apps that you're going to create new boundaries and guidelines around them. And then also that you're going to collectively decide that you're going to figure out ways to give your kids more opportunities to do stuff together in real life. Like then it's actually a solvable problem. The issue is this feeling that your kids going to be left out and, you know, they will be if they're the only kid who doesn't have these things. But I guess that's what really gives me hope. And the other thing that's very encouraging to me as I alluded to is that, you know, the dream was to get to write a book that would help kids rethink technology. Whether we're talking about kids who don't have smartphones or social media already or kids who are already using these devices and these platforms, you know, to try to, I don't know, just help them internalize what's at stake, which really is their enjoyment of their own lives. And then give them this inspiring vision of what might be possible. But then hopefully get them to take action. So I have been so moved to see the reviews that parents have posted in the emails I've been getting from people to see that kids are into it. We frame the book as basically a battle between the tech companies and what we describe as this growing number of young rebels who have decided to stand up for themselves. And challenge the status quo and decide to choose a different path from what the generation just above there is Gen Z has chosen. And Gen Z is the generation John Hite writes about in the anxious generation. So many young people struggling with mental health challenges and, you know, attention issues and all of that. So we profile a number of these young rebels in the book and we provide very clear instructions for how to be a rebel. We have something called the rebels code in the book, which describes our kind of encapsulation of the philosophy that we heard from these young people. And it's really quite simple. It's the idea that young, that all of us honestly should use technology as a tool, not let technology use us and that we should fill our lives with more real friendship, real freedom and real fun. And it's really been amazing to me to hear from so many families that their kids are reading the book in many cases rereading the book. In some cases fighting over the book and that they're they're talking to their parents about stuff they learned in the book and that they're actually asking for more ways in which they can become rebels themselves. And that I think ultimately is what gives me hope because if kids decide that they don't want to follow the path laid out for them and us by the tech companies, that's when we really see real change. We are so grateful. We are so grateful for all that you're putting out there and for folks who want to follow along with all you're doing and find everything where should they go? Tech wise, I guess. Yeah, I know. Well, my my website is CatherinePrice.com Catherine with a C but I write a sub stack newsletter called How to Feel Alive, which I really would love for your community to join me for. And that is if you look up how to feel alive CatherinePrice newsletter, but it's CatherinePrice.substack.com. I am technically on Instagram, but I hate it. So do that if you must. But I try to use social media to help people get off social media. And yeah, and then if adult I would say if adults or older teens, if you want a resource for adults or older teens, that's what how to break up with your phone is for. And then for younger kids, the amazing generation. And then if you want more on fun, I've got a TED Talk and then my book, The Power of Fun. Thank you. Thank you for the profound difference you're making. We could not be more grateful and are so honored to get to know you and have this conversation. Indeed. David, what a team we have that we get to call friends who help make this podcast possible. Chris Sterrett, our engineer. Our management team at KCH. We are thrilled to be a part of the That Sounds Fun Network. Our music was created by the insanely talented Dave Haywood of Lady A. And if this podcast felt helpful to you, please consider subscribing, liking, sharing all the things. We are grateful for you and cheering you on always. Inspired by jet engine silences, the Dyson Hushjet Purify powerfully purifies the entire room, quietly. Capturing pollen, allergens and pet dander, removing odours and harmful gases such as NO2, day and night. Hushjet, powerful, compact purification. That's quiet. 500 orders a month was manageable. 5,000 is madness. Embrace intelligent order fulfilment with ShipStation. The only platform combining order management, warehouse workflows, inventory, returns and analytics in one place. What used to take five separate tools, ShipStation does in one. Go to ShipStation.com and use code START to try ShipStation free for 60 days. ShipStation is a free platform for all of you. ShipStation is a free platform for all of you. ShipStation is a free platform for all of you. 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