1KHO 697: Stand Your Ground | Joel Muddamalle, The Unseen Battle

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And so it was an honor to come and to hear you speak. And then I had the opportunity to read your brand new book, which is out. Right now, if you're listening to this podcast, you can go grab a copy of it. It is called the unseen battle, spiritual warfare, the three rebellions and Christ victory over dark powers. We're talking here about getting kids outside. And often when you get them outside, you have an opportunity to talk about spiritual truths and different parts of theology because a lot of creation, a lot of the way that the earth works is a reflection of spiritual truth. So I love to have these kinds of conversations. And this one's a really interesting one because this one is about the things that we don't maybe see at all. You know, what's going on? And there's a lot of things that we don't see like the wind and heat. You know, there's so many things outdoors that you don't see, but you feel the effects of. So you hold the PhD in theology director of theology and research. It proverbs 31 ministries. You co-host a podcast with these are turkers and a licensed counselor Jim Crest, a frequent speaker all over the place. You have a couple books. They hit in piece 30 days with Jesus. You've got some sub stacks, the humble theology sub stack, the stranger theology sub stack, which I think parents will be interested in about the strange parts of the Bible. You call yourself a Bible nerd, but you also like sports and you got a lot of kids. Yes. Oh, can you talk about your path? What's your path to where you always the Bible nerd? Is it anything? Yeah, no, that's such a good question. Now I often get like seminary students, they'll come up to me like, Joel, how did you do? Like, how are you doing? I want to do what you're doing. And I'll kind of laugh and be like, I don't know. Like I honestly don't know. And I think the Christian life is kind of like that. And it's something I try to communicate to my kids often. It's less about massive leaps of like, oh, this is a huge moment of faith. And much more about like small steps of obedience of nope, just do the very next thing that's in front of you. And so for me, the path, this kind of odd, but the path was a English teacher when I was a freshman in high school who taught me how to actually read Professor Shidehacker. I won't ever forget. He kind of opened my eyes to reading not flat, but multilayered and really asked a question like, what is the author trying to get us to think and to feel? So we were like to kill a mockingbird, you know? Like I remember working through to kill a mockingbird and just being amazed at like the depth of what's happening. And then honestly, the big thing was we worked through the Iliad and the Odyssey. And as we're working through those two novels, my imagination exploded. And I've always been a nerd. So I've always been to superheroes. I've always been into, you know, just any of that. I watched Dragon Ball's E growing up. Like I mean, just truly a nerd all the way through. And I remember reading the Iliad and the Odyssey and thinking, wait a minute, there are these passages in the Bible that sound kind of similar or at least echo some of these things, but it feels like we don't talk about it. But how did the ancient Greeks like think of these things? Where did the connection point come from? And so for me, it was actually imagination. It was the imagination and the thought, the question, what is the author's intended meaning? And then come and behold, like that is the question for biblical theology. Like the question for understanding the scriptures is not what do I think about the text, what do I want to get from the text? It's like, what did God intend from the scriptures? What is the ancient worldview of the Old Testament, the ancient year Eastern and the New Testament, the Greco-Roman worldview? Like, how did they understand these things? And then how do we build a bridge of application to ourselves? So I attribute a lot to Professor Shadekker. He really changed my life and really taught me how to read the Bible better, you know? And so from there, it was just a long, a long series of small steps of obedience, you know, and massive missteps along the way of error and failure and a kind God who is a good father that just led me consistently to himself. And so here we are today. I turned 40 last year and it's been quite a journey. It's interesting because, you know, they're talking about that. Today, most high schoolers don't read any books. Like, they don't read any books from cover to cover. They just read passages. So the fact that in ninth grade, a ninth grader, you read Tekela Mackingbird and these are huge, these are huge books. Not only just one, but by many books and how that really shaped your life. Is there an easy example of a passage that someone might misinterpret because they're not reading it as the author intended it to be meant? Right off the bat. Let's go to Genesis 1, 2 and 3, right? So we suffer from what I like to call a de-mythologizing of the Bible. And I think this is a byproduct of like post enlightenment, 21st century scientific advancement. And you know, I'll say some things in this podcast that maybe you're here to be like, wait, is that like, how does that work? And I unpack it all in the unseen battle and I'm like, I believe in the resurrection. Like, so let me just do a question for us, kind of like a rhetorical kind of question. We would all agree, I think, that as Christians, the core of what we believe is that God became man in the incarnation without losing an ounce of his divinity was born through a maclit conception, virgin birth, that Jesus lived a perfect life without sin. He went to a real Roman cross. He died on that cross literally, was put in a grave, but then defeated sin and death through death itself after three days rose again. I hung out in post resurrection body for a period of 40 days, just a chill and hang out with some people, prove the point and then ascended literally into the right, into the heavens, into the right hand of the Father. And that is where he now rules and reigns, right? What part of that is not cosmic? Right. What part of that is not spirit? We'd be like, wait a minute, all of it is. And so then my question is like, if that is the core of what we believe as believers, then why do we try to rationalize away other parts of the Bible that are mythic, that are cosmic, that are supernatural in nature? And this I think is not your question, what is a good example? Eden. Eden is my perfect example. Has anybody ever been like, why does Eve not freak out when the serpent starts to talk to her? Right. So why isn't Eve like, hold up before we even get to this question of the truth, the knowledge of good and evil? Like serpent, this is whack and wild. Why are you talking? Are you speaking? Well, because in the ancient world view, the Hebrew word for serpent, Nakaash, it has in mind three things. It has in mind a bronze fiery image. It has in mind a cherubi, a guardian throne room being the supernatural nature. And it has in mind a literal snake. So the question is, when Moses, who we believe were the first five books of the Old Testament, when he mentions the Nakaash, what is he getting at? And the answer to that question is, yes. The answer is yes. He has in mind a fiery being. He has in mind a guardian, a cherubi, and he has in mind a serpent like figure. And guess what? Eden is on a mountain. And in the ancient world view, kings planted gardens on top of mountains to be the place of residence for them to hang out with their family. And so you've got a passage like Job that says the sons of God, the morning stars, were present at the beginning of creation shouting for joy. And it's like, well, what has God created? Eden, what does he do? Takes Adam and Eve and places them in his royal garden. And then what is placed in Eden to protect Eden after the fall to guardian cherubi? So maybe, and I think this is actually very, very important and it connects back to spiritual warfare. Maybe the issue isn't so much that the serpent was there, but the question is actually more, what does the serpent say? You see, Adam and Eve were accustomed to spiritual beings walking in and out through Eden. This is what Genesis 3 says that Yahweh, it was routine for him to come and walk in the cool of the evening breeze with his kids, which is like a while back to like the outdoors thing. Think about that. God routinely, every day on the calendar and the alarm would go off like five minutes before the cool of the evening breeze. By the way, Yahweh is on his way to take a walk with you. You know, it's like, that's what he's in. What were they going to do on the in the evening breeze and the cool of the walk? I don't know about you. I'm not a walker for fun or a runner for no reason. I actually despise it. Lisa Harper has a mutual good friend in Pastor Levi Lusco and man, Levi loves to run. Anytime I'm with him at an event, he's like, let's go work out together. Yeah, right. That dude is like, you know, he's up at 5 a.m. doing a week's worth of workouts that, and I'm like just trying to get a first cup of coffee, you know? That's what he did for his book tour. I know. I was up. I'll come run with him when his book came out. That's a funny story. If you go onto my Instagram and you scroll down on the main feed, there is an interview that Levi did with me on a run in Charlotte and I actually look like I'm about to die. He is asking me deep theology questions and I'm actually suffocating. I'm surprised I didn't call an ambulance. Actually some of the people in the comments said that they should have called an ambulance because it was that bad. But it's like, well, okay, so God walked in the cool of the evening breeze with his kids. This is outdoor. What do you do with the people that you love while you go on a walk? You talk, right? Process life. You think like, so what does that mean for Adam and Eve? There were two grow actually in knowledge and wisdom by daily walks with God. I mean, goodness, that'll preach. How do you want to want? How do you want to grow in knowledge and wisdom? Like this is what I want my kids to know. Like, how do you grow in knowledge and wisdom? Here's how you grow in knowledge and wisdom. Walk daily with King Jesus. Like go where he, this is Galatians 5. Go where he goes. Don't go where he doesn't go. Just to near him, pay attention to his footsteps, pay, you know, like all of that. Well, when the serpent comes in, the serpent actually doesn't present a new story. The tactic of the enemy is rarely to present this with something new, brand new. It's actually to distort truth. What is actually true? And in it, the serpent, again, Adam and Eve were like, they're used to seeing spiritual beings. What they're not accustomed to is a spiritual being trying to deceive them. Oh, yeah. And so now Adam and Eve entertain a conversation they should have never entertained. And if our Adam and Eve now in hindsight, I mean, if our Adam and Eve had done the exact same thing, I'd have taken the fruit. But in hindsight, now knowing everything, I kind of wish Adam and Eve were even Adam would have said, hey, that's a really great question. Nakaosh serpent. You know what? It's routine for God to come and take walk with us in the cool of the evening breeze. Why don't you hang out? Hang out with us until he gets your let's ask him this question. What do we think that then Nakaosh would have done? I'll tell you, run for its life. That's what Ode to done, right? And once again, so when it comes to spiritual warfare, it's like, how do we combat spiritual warfare? It's the same way that Adam and Eve were supposed to combat it. With the presence of God, with the truth of his word, you know, trying to fight this battle alone is a recipe for disaster. And we see that all the way in the Eden story. But notice all of this to your simple question, like, how we miss the presence of supernatural activity. We miss the presence of something that looks right, but it's actually deceiving. We miss the idea that actually these supernatural malevolent beings have been around since the very beginning of creation literally as God speaks all creation together, which means they've got a lot of foresight. They've got a lot of knowledge and information. The problem is not all knowledge is good knowledge for us. And so what the enemy often wants to do is present neutral knowledge and use it in such a way that that knowledge becomes self-destructive for humanity. I mean, that is fascinating. That's right at the beginning of the Bible. And no one ever is like, why is a serpent talking and why, why is it doesn't she think that's weird? How interesting. You say in the book, the unseen battle, the most deceptive and powerful tactics of spiritual warfare present half truths as the full truth when they are nothing but a full lie from the very beginning. Spiritual warfare is a reframing and distortion of truth. You have this question in the book. If I were to ask you what spiritual warfare is, how would you respond? And I think if you grew up in church, you learn about the breastplate of righteousness and my feet fitted with the readiness that comes, whatever, all the things I write. But I don't know if I would necessarily have a good answer to the question if someone were to ask me what is spiritual warfare, how would I respond? Could you give an answer to that? I mean, that's a pretty big and deep question. What is spiritual warfare? Yeah, so I've got a dear friend of mine, Jim Cross. He's the licensed counselor that Lisa and I co-host therapy and theology together. And Jim once said something to me in a podcast that we were doing together maybe a decade ago that absolutely just rocked me. He said, there are some things that are simple but not simplistic. There are some things that are simple but not simplistic. And this is one of those things that when I say it, it's going to sound incredibly simple. But it's far from simplistic. So what is spiritual warfare? I think spiritual warfare is absolutely intricately connected to the storyline of Scripture. So what is the storyline of Scripture? I would summarize it this way. The storyline of Scripture is the story of a good dad who is absolutely determined to have his family back together. It's a story of a good dad. Now in that, there's a lot of questions because then we go like, who is this good dad? Well, he happens to be the cosmic king of heaven and earth. That's wild. And then if he's desperate, like he's determined to have his family back together, what happened to the family in the first place? Well, the family was divided, right? And then his third question, well, who is the family? And this is a big part of my book. I start the whole first half of this is that God has always had a two family household. He's always had this conception of a supernatural family, these angelic beings, supernaturally, supernatural beings, and a human family. And in Eden, the mount of Eden, that's where both families resided. This is why the Hebrew phrase is for angelic beings and the Old Testament are sons of God. It uses familial language to describe these supernatural beings. And they have vocation and responsibility. And guess what? Adam and Eve are made. You and I are made in what? The likeness and image of God. What is that? But familial. It says that we image our good dad. If we image our good dad, the goal is that we image that likeness in a way that is responsible and true of who our dad is. And so what is spiritual warfare? A lot of times we want to think of spiritual warfare in demon exorcism or we think about it in these power encounters or these big, now I'm not saying that those don't exist. In fact, I believe the opposite. I actually do think that those take place. But I think part of the deception of the enemy is almost like a magician who does slide of hand. It's like the slide of hand is like, hey, look at all this big, crazy chaotic stuff, right? And all the while there's something else that's happening that's actually setting up all of this. And so it's like, that's the stuff that I want us to be able to see clearly through the pages of the unseen battle. And ultimately, spiritual warfare is about a household that's divided and a king who's going to have his household reunited. Okay. I have been waiting to say this. Homebikes is the official 2026 bike partner of 1000 hours outside. And it just makes sense because here's what I know when kids fall in love with riding bikes, something shifts. They go from hesitant to flying down the sidewalk with total confidence and that confidence spills into everything else. These bikes are lightweight, softly designed and built so kids can actually succeed. The brakes fit their hands, the geometry fits their bodies, they feel capable right away. And in a world pulling our kids towards screens, bikes pull them toward freedom. So we are kicking off spring with a 100 hour ride challenge and we'll release a special tracker to log 100 hours outside on bikes. 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A theology that isn't livable isn't helpful. So there's this verse that says, it's a warning. Paul says, do not give the enemy a foothold in our lives. And that kind of makes me think of a scary movie when you're running from the monster and then you go to slam the door and they get their foot in. And you can't totally shut it. So you say as believers, we should take these warnings seriously. How should we do that? Yeah, one is recognition. So I want to start with the imagery first with the foothold. I don't know if you watched this. So I'm a little bit ADD, scatterbrained. And so I've got weird things to pop into my brain. Just now as you're saying that I was thinking about this TV show about this dude that like freeclimed. Have you seen any of this? Oh, yes. I mean, even this is real recent. Like, yes, a couple days ago, right? Like, yeah, yeah. So like, I'm just thinking about that, right? And it's like, he has to have a foothold. But what is the purpose of the foothold? It's to advance. You don't ever get a foothold just to stay in the peripheral on the outside. A foothold is extremely strategic. It's to get a spot so that you can kind of warm your way closer or in that scenario to gain higher to the goal. And so when Paul's saying, hey, be really careful that you don't give the enemy a foothold. I actually think this is a biblical echo all the way back to the story of Canaan Abel in Genesis chapter 4. Like remember God comes down to to cane. It's like, hey bro, this is my the Joel paraphrase. It's like, hey bro, like be careful. Like, like, sin is crouching. It's waiting to devour you, but you have to rule over it. Like you and it's funny. It's interesting that God doesn't say like, you can maybe possibly he's like, no, you must, you must rule over it, you know? So before Canaan goes into premeditated murder of his brother, right? And all those actions take place. Here's a gracious God who steps in in the presence of spiritual warfare out called the spiritual warfare in order to give him a way out. And so it's like, what is this? In Canaan's story, it's jealousy. It's discontentment. It's this desire for something that he didn't get the way that he wanted that created a foothold in his heart that allowed his own sinful flesh and the presence, I think, of dark powers to push him into an act of utter devastation and destruction. The language of the enemy is is crouching like predators crouch with incredible patience so they can pound the perfect time. And we have an enemy who is incredibly patient, who is who's just waiting. And so it's like, well, what is he talking about? What does this mean? Remember, I was talking about the magician in the slide of hand. You have these big massive things and you have these like, settle things that are happening. So like, the enemy loves using good or neutral things to make them ultimate things that always become idolatrous things. And so it's like food. Man, like, what is your relationship with food? It's kind of wild, you know? Like food can actually become an idolatrous thing for you, both the consumption of it or the neglect of it. You see how the works and extremes, the gym, what's your relationship with the gym? Like, you're trying to work out, you're trying to be healthy. Well, being healthy is a good goal. Our bodies are a temple of the Lord, right? One is a turn into obsession where you don't ever look good enough. You're always competing with somebody else, right? And then it's stuff like alcohol, it's stuff like Netflix, like, bingeing. We're talking about kids going outside and we're talking about some of that stuff earlier offline, I believe. And one of the things I think is so fascinating is one of the first things that happened with Instagram. I remember when Instagram first came out and when you got to the end of your feed, it's that congratulations you got to the end of your feed. Do you remember that? No, I didn't get on it at the beginning because I'm older than that. I was on it. I was on the very beginning. Yeah. And there was this thing at the very end, you'd scroll and you'd reach the end. And you'd be like, you've caught up. You know the first thing to leave that you've caught up, it is now an endless scroll. You know, this is the tactic of the enemy. This is a foothold that the enemy wants to leverage and exploit in order to consistently and slowly distract us from like the sufficiency, the presence and the provision that only God can actually give us that our souls are longing for. The church, Father Augustine, one's kind of famously said, you know, our hearts are restless until they find their rest in God. And we are a restless people which back to your podcast and kind of what you're doing with getting kids outside, like we're literally as we're talking. We just had like that snow, pocolips, ice pocolips, like we live in Charlotte and so it wasn't nearly as bad. I've got a lot of friends in Nashville that are just been devastated by this. So in Charlotte, we never get snow. We never like, you know, and so we got like an inch and a half of snow. The coolest thing happened yesterday, like when the snow hit all the kids woke up, like our entire neighborhood looked like a winter wonderland. There are sleds, there's dads pulling, like, you know, there's no slopes. So what do you do? You pull your kid. You just see the kids out there, like my daughter came and daddy, it's a snow day. Like, I mean, just absolutely ecstatic. I'm like, man, there's something beautiful about walking into God's creation and being reminded, and this is so important, this part of spiritual warfare, being reminded of the Creator creation distinction. That there is a creator who is the uncreated creator of all things and you and I are created beings. And we recognize our limitations. We recognize our finite reality, right? Even the exhilaration of my son on a sled going all the way down, he came in and he was like, that I almost wiped out, it would have hurt so bad. And I'm like, yeah, exactly. That's actually a good thing, you know, that you have that recognition. So I just part of the big, big focus of the unseen battle. It's deep theology. It's a lot of footnotes. I hope you read my footnotes. It matters to me, you know. And yet there are these moments that I want to keep bringing back, like the enemy wants to work in places that are so often overlooked. And the Lord has a way out for us. And the same thing he said to Cain is like, hey, bro, like, don't be downcast. There's a way out of this, you know. And that's what I hope the unseen battle will provide for people. Yeah, the whole thing, which is really interesting because when you talk about that guy that was climbing, you know, people do this, you know, they free climb. That's what it's called, right? Solo climbing, free climbing. Solo climbing or free climbing? Terrifying. They're not attached to anything. Yeah. So it is slow. You have to make sure that your foothold is secure, whether you're doing it on a building or on a mountain side, and the same with the crouching. So this is like a slow encroachment or if someone gets their foot in your door, it's just a little bit. So you say we have to take these warnings seriously. One of the things that you talked about in this book, the unseen battle, which I had never considered, you know, as a kid, if you grew up in church, you learned about the armor of God. So the breastplate and righteousness in place, you know, your feet fitted. I think I already said it. Like the belt of truth buckled around your waist and the breastplate and the right genus in place and your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel piece or whatever the words are. But I never really considered that the language then after that just says stand, stand firm then or maybe it's before wherever it comes in, but it doesn't, there's no offensive, like when you're, you know, or defensive either. It's just like you just stand there. Yeah. And you talk about that in this book and I thought that was a really good thing, a good thing to teach kids because I was never taught that part. I was only taught about the armor of God. So can you talk about how that relates to daily living? Yeah. So, you know, one of the things, again, this might sound confusing or just maybe new for some folks is my view and this is, I think that passage points this out, theologically and exegetically, is that you and I are not called to pursue demon encounters. It's not like we're like supposed to put on our cape as demon exorcists and like walk out there and like search them out and try to find them and, you know, and now it's nuanced. Is there room for deliverance ministry? Is there room for that? Absolutely. There's room for it. I think what I'm trying to say though is that that's not the normative call of all believers, right? Like that's not the thing that we're just, and Paul has talked about that. He's recognizing that we have a real enemy who will attack us in various ways and then we have a good God who has equipped us with armor and often, you know, when scholars talk about this, they point to the Greco-Roman armor. I actually think that that's, that is a area to root it in, but I think a deeper area is actually in Isaiah where God is the one who puts on his armor, his blessed plate, a breastplate of righteousness, you know, all of this stuff in order to deal with the unrighteousness of the world, you know, which is kind of a wild thought to think. So this is not some arbitrary armor that we're putting on. God has actually given us his armor. His own personal armor for us to fight, you know, for us to defend ourselves in this battle. And so that language of stand is the language of like, we don't give ground. We stand in the coffins of who Christ is and when the enemy attacks those fiery darts come at us, we're equipped and we're prepared in order to survive through that onslaught. Now we are given a command to go though. We are given warfare, kind of militaristic imperatives. What is that? It's the advancement of the gospel. It's the advancement of the gospel. This is Jesus' great commission. Go and make disciples of all nations. Baptism has the name of the Father's and the Spirit's like, oh, so as believers, this where all of us are supposed to do, we're supposed to go out and make disciples, like, and by the way, it's like our kids, like duh, like we should be making disciples of our kids, like, like encouraging them the imagination of a good God and how they've, how God has wired them uniquely to be who they are. Like this is warfare. This is spiritual warfare. We are, we're disciplinary kids. That is the commission to all believers and all times and all spaces going to make disciples and guess what? There's a real enemy. There's a real enemy who hates us. I just want to say that to you guys. Like there is an actual enemy who hates you. And the most deceptive thing about this enemy is that he presents things to you that makes it seem like he actually loves you. He actually cares about your well-being, you know? And this is like the perfect con artist. It's the perfect con game. And so here you and I are living out the gospel mission and when ever light moves into darkness, the darkness is going to weather and fall back but also fight on its way out. Right? And so it's like, here we are, advancing the gospel, moving into dark places, discipling, sharing the good news of the gospel. And then you have an enemy who's attacking us and I think what Paul is saying is in that moment, stand. Stand firm. You know? Like you're prepared for the onslaught because you're actively advancing the kingdom of God through gospel proclamation and when the enemy fights back, you stand in coffins. Don't give ground. Don't withdraw. Stand. Yeah. It's good. We stand in the power of Christ. We are the passive recipients you write of divine action. Yeah. We do receive the power of the spirit. We are called to put on the armor of God. It's really helpful and it's really life applicable. That's what you talk about. Theology that's meant to be lived. 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So when you walk down the path and you're reading about things in the book like demons and fallen angels, you bring up anxiety, which I think is an important thing to bring up because you could read it and start to feel really anxious about these things. You say, but giving into anxiety would be a tragic mistake. We could come to the end of the book and be tempted to feel anxious and concerned about this unseen battle. Yes, yes, there is spiritual wherever taking place around us all the time every day. However, giving into anxiety would be a tragic mistake. How do we learn about these things and not give into anxiety? I think it's posturing perspective is so vitally important for you and I, posturing perspective. So what is our posture? Our posture is a posture of humble confidence, humble confidence. And I use those two words very intentionally. It is not a confidence that is rooted in me, myself and I. It is a confidence that is rooted in Christ. And the more I think about Jesus and the more I talk about him, often I just say like the cosmic Christ. This is the whole point of Ephesians. This is the whole point of Colossians. It's like, Jesus is the intersection between heaven and earth. This is what the incarnation is so miraculous in itself. Like every, I get into this in the unseen battle, like every mythic story, the Greeks and the Romans and the ancient year Eastern, hit heights and Mesopotamians and the Viking Norse, all of these, right? It's a story of humanity trying to become an achieved God-like status. That's the goal. And it's a, it's a defeating like disastrous story. Wow. And isn't that happening today, Joel? And isn't that happening today? Yeah, it's happening with the AI. Yeah. And that is the goal. That's what Dr. Nicholas Cardera says that the ones at the very, very top want to live forever. They combined human digital form. Exactly. And inside of fear and stuff, right? But then look at the story of scripture. The story of scripture is the story of God that soft fit to become, to take on humanity, to build the ladder, the thing about Jacob's ladder. It's like to build this ladder. What is the ladder? The ladder is the cross. So okay, our posture is humble confidence, right? So it's this confidence not rooted in ourselves. It's rooted in the cosmic king of heaven and earth, Jesus himself. But then it's perspective. What is our perspective? You and I view this conversation from the perspective of the finished work of the cross, from the finished work of the cross. So when we're standing at the place of the Christ's ultimate victory, it's like, oh man, that's that, that like leaves us with even more confidence that leaves us with perspective that helps us see that yes, there's a real battle, but that battle is on the back end of ultimate defeat, you know? And so we don't need to achieve and strive in order to win, we just actually are riding the wave of Christ's victory that took place on the cross. Okay, so there we go. I mean, you don't have to be anxious about it. And the book will teach you all about those things, the unseen battle. If you want to, you know, like some books, you read that are faith-based books. You know, they're lighter. I don't know how to describe it. Yours is like real deep. In terms, you know, in terms, I mean, the other ones are deep, too. I'm not trying to like be little anyone else's faith-based book, but like yours is tackling things that maybe the reader has never considered before. Yeah. So this, I'm going to give an example. And this is all through the book. It's called the unseen battle, but you're talking about, and it's right in the subtitle, the three rebellions. And then you go into the three temptations of Christ, and then you explain how those temptations are the tactics of spiritual warfare, which I think is super helpful. So, I mean, I've never heard of this, Joel. The three, the three rebellions, Genesis, three, Genesis, six, Genesis, 11 is the third rebellion. Then you have the three temptations of Christ. Can you talk about, like, am I going to break the Bible? You know, I grew up in church since I was a little, like since I was a baby. I'm like, I've never even heard of the three rebellions. What sparks your interest? Like, where does that come from? Ah, part of the word comes from, is just, I think I'm escapitic, and I'm curious. And I'm unsatisfied with, kind of, like, surface level answers, you know? And so there's a curiosity about it that can get me in trouble, for sure. But oftentimes, when it comes to the Bible, it's actually helped me a lot. And in fact, this one wasn't even my own curiosity. It was actually my doctoral advisor, the late great doctor Michael Heiser, the microdub book called the unseen realm. So this book, the unseen battle, is really the book that I always wanted to co-author with my, the way I talked about, he was my second reader from my dissertation. And so we kind of had this plan, like, hey, you know, once we get done, he was diagnosed with stage four pancreatic cancer, as I was finishing up my dissertation. And so it's like, hey, as you're able to, you know, like, fight this thing, get to a good spot, like, let's think about, you know, doing this co-author book. Well, tragically, ended up passing just a couple of years after I defended my dissertation. And so this book was dedicated to him. So you'll see in the opening page, it's dedicated to Mike. And then also, Mike, when I remember we were, we worked together at a Bible software company called Lois Bible Software years and years ago. And I remember talking to Mike, walking to his office, and he said something to me that he just never thought about. He goes, hey, Joel, have you thought about the three rebellions? It's like, what are the three rebellions? No, I'm like, he's like, and he like, unpacked it for me. He's like, you know, Christians today, when you think about like, why is there so much evil in the world? Mike said, like, most Christians, and I said this, it's like, well, Genesis three, Genesis three is why there's so much evil. And Mike was like, yeah, you know, the ancient Israelites, especially in the second temple period, they would have had a little bit more of a robust answer for us. I'm like, Mike, tell me more. And he's like, you know, they would talk about Genesis three, but then they would be like, don't forget to Genesis six. Like what's Genesis six? The wild story about the sons of God and the daughters of man that produce these things called the Nephilim, who are these giants. And then right after Genesis six, one through four is the story of the flood, right? Which is wild to me that in vacation Bible school, we always talk about the flood. Ain't nobody talking about Genesis six, one through four, the events that literally preceded the flood. Like, why does the flood take place? Genesis six, one through four, evil spread through the world. The sons of God, the daughters of man and these Nephilim. And I'm like, oh, that act Mike, that actually makes a lot of sense. And then the last one was Genesis 11, the story of the Tower of Babel, when it talks about, you know, the disbursement of the nations. And then he was like, have you ever thought about Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9? I'm like, no, Mike, I don't think about these things. I'm thinking about fancy football right now, you know? And he's like, go open your Bible and read Deuteronomy 32, 8 and 9. I had an ESV Bible at the time. Once I opened it up and said, talks about, you know, when God disinherited the nations and a lot of them to the sons of God. And I'm like, wait a minute, that sounds like, it's like the after story of the Tower of Babel. He goes, exactly. He's like, wait a minute. And so it's like, where do we get the gods of the nations of the Old Testament? Why is there so much chaos in the Old Testament? What is this whole thing about Genesis 12 and the reclaiming of the nations and Abraham being the one who's going to be a blessing to all the nations? Abraham had a covenant of Genesis 12, 15, 17 and 22. Why is it so important? The Abraham is called out of the earth, the Caldience. Oh, I don't know, maybe because it's roughly the vicinity of Babel, the epicenter of rebellion. Wait a minute, mind blown. Like, how did I not make all of these connections? And, you know, Acts chapter 2, the reversal of Babel, Ephesians 2, 18 through 22, the reunion of the household and really is all contingent and really built out of these three rebellions. And in each of these rebellions, you will notice that it is never isolated to just an earthly experience. It's never isolated just a spiritual experience. This is where heaven and earth meet. What happens in one impacts the other and you see that happening all throughout these three rebellions. Okay. So that's going to give listeners a really good little window into what this book is like because it is like that. And you're like, oh my gosh, I've never heard about this and I've never read about that. And then you go into the three temptations of Christ. Yup. And how in all these temptations, we see the tactics of spiritual warfare and then how Jesus responds, there is always the visible battle over the temptations being offered. But there's also the unseen battle waging within our hearts. The temptation asks about the ultimate object of our affection. So this is like what you offer. And so can you tell the listeners what they would find at the Stranger Theology Substick and Podcast? Yeah. So I mean, probably what's going to happen is you'll read through the unseen battle and you'll be like, wait a minute. I think that there's more to the story than I've been told. It kind of feels like I'm an 80s 90s kid, you know? So remember transformers like the like there's more than meets the eye, that kind of thing. And I think that's kind of what's going to happen. It's been my journey. And none of this discounts the story that we've been told that I think it just moves into 4K, like high definition, you know? And now you're reading through your battle and you're like, wait a minute, like I want to learn. And so the Stranger Theology Substack is a project that is a collaborative effort between myself and my friends. They run a podcast called the Blurry Creatures Podcast. And it's all about like paranormal, supernatural. And they talk about a lot of like kind of wild stuff. Big foot and porous and all this stuff. But they're believers. They like love Jesus. And they've had me on multiple times to talk about like a biblical theology. And we kind of thought wouldn't it be awesome to have a place that is theologically orthodox. Like it's evangelical, theological, but it gives some perspective to consider like where are all these stories coming from? Does the Bible have an answer for this? And my view is and throughout the unseen Bible that the Bible has the most coherent answer for questions of big foot to aliens, to like actually the Bible has the language for all of this stuff. And so I actually think it's going to be super helpful. So the Stranger Theology Substack is essays that I've brought in some amazing scholars in the field that you get through to four essays a month. And then right now we're working through what's called the Cosmic Mountain series. It's a premium podcast. It's going to feel it's more than a podcast, but it's more accessible than seminary. It's all theology, right? And so I think it's going to be super fun. And so I'd love for people to check it out. You can check it out at StrangerTheology.com and they'll give you all the answers, questions, responses. Can I ask this to imagination? Because we're in a day and age where we're really handing our imagination over to machines. And this has been going on for a long time. You know, it's like you play a video game with that somebody else's imagination, watch it in the movie, that someone else's imagination. Kids are not playing as much as they used to. So obviously you're very curious, you're curious person. And it is interesting that the study of scripture itself could lend itself to the increase, especially for children and for adults, right? I mean, actually it's kind of like this downward slope where you just don't even spend any time considering and thinking through. So the study of the Bible can enhance your imagination and creativity. Yeah. I have a good friend of mine. We work together at Proverbs. Her name is Leah, her and her husband, Paul. Leon Paul have a son. And one day she sent me this video of her son and they're like doing it by time story. And it's like this animated story of Egypt, you know? And it's the, and it's the, each of the ten plagues. And this kid is, I mean, I'm planning on handing over everything to this kid. This kid is a genius. The allot, he's like little. Like I, Leah's gonna be mad at me. I don't know what to say. She's like four or something like, you know? Like young. And she gets to her and Paul get to the angel of death, you know? And it's an animated thing. So it's like designed for kids, but he's still probably a little too little for the angel of death. And she's kind of like, and this is like a ghost and she like flips the page. This kid is too smart. He's like, no, what's going on there, mama? Like, like wants to go, you know? And I'm like, good job, Leah and Paul, because you are introducing your child to the beauty of imagination to wrestle with something that our brains are trying to figure out. And this is like part of shepherding and stewardship as parents is recognizing your child's individual capacity and maturity in order to engage in that conversation. But don't punt. Man, don't punt on the conversation. Like assess it and begin to allow imagination to grow and use ways to make it relatable. And as your child grows, this is a conversation that you don't have that stops. It's a conversation that grows like a snowball. And so I just really think that the Bible, if we read it honestly from Genesis all the way through Revelation, your kids are gonna come across things that spark their imagination because the way our modern mind works to rationalize these things, the beauty of the child's mind is unsatisfied with rationalization. And this is the thing. Theology should always be done in the context of community. Please don't undermine or overlook how much you can learn from your kids, from their understanding of Scripture, from their imagination, from their way of storytelling, you know? And so oftentimes it's like here we are thinking that we're doing the teaching, but I have found that I'm often the one doing the learning as my kids just kind of present honest questions to me. And we wrestle with it, you know? Like, I don't know about that. Let's look at some commentary. Like, I've got teenage boys right now. So let's look at some commentaries. Let's see what Mike wrote in the unseen round. Let's search this stuff out, you know? And I think that's really important. So they have engaged the greatest story ever told is the story of Scripture. And every other story that we have in this world is some copy and paste of that story. Like you'll just find, you'll find embedded in everything this story. So let your kids truly know the true story. Like you can know Connerfit by knowing the true thing. And the enemy is trying to present us with all kinds of Connerfit information out there, right? So how do you, how do you battle against the Connerfit? You just obsess over what is true. So you can be aware of the deceit and the deception of the enemy. So I would say like, yeah, imagination is so important, especially for your kids. The Bible gives you the opportunity to explore that. But it's going to require honesty and humility from us to allow ourselves to be in that uncomfortable position of, whew, how do I explain the angel of death to a kid? Like sure. Sure. And you cover a lot of these. If you pop over to your YouTube, a lot of the big questions that people ask. Let me ask you when I punted on. Okay. So I've got one of our kids. She's, she's a little clingier than the, they've all been actually really clingy. But those of them was like extra clingy. And so she was really young and she said, Mommy, if I die before you, will you already be there in heaven waiting for me? I punted. Mm-hmm. Because I, you know, based off of the Strobel's book, you know, when he talks about these, and I read another woman's book, who's a hospice nurse. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of consistencies in the way that when people's lives end, especially if they're not like really hooked up to a ton of machines and things like they'll, they'll have these experiences where they'll, you know, they'll see their loved ones. It's almost like their loved ones will walk them home. Yeah. But it's, but it's always ones who have already passed. So like grandparents or things like that. Yeah. So I do have an end, a response to this. I don't know that I've an answer. I've been to response to this. And I actually would have rooted in a couple of places. One is Hebrews, where it talks about the great clad of witnesses. And there's a sense that the author of Hebrews gives us that's like, hey, there's this great clad of witnesses and they're cheering you on. They're encouraging you. And then you have the story in Matthew about, it's the story of Abraham and Lazarus, like Abraham's bosom that hold, that whole thing that's happening there. And you get the sense in the afterlife that there's activity that's taking place. There's knowledge. There's just, you know, agency that's happening there. Then you have the story of Eden. So like I'm kind of giving us like these three parts, right? You've got Hebrews that talks about the great clad of witnesses. You've got the story parable in Matthew about Lazarus and Abraham and this whole thing that's happening there between Shio and the underworld. And then you have Eden. And you have Eden that leaves in Genesis 3 as a garden, but in Revelation it returns as a garden city. And then you have Jesus who says, I leave to prepare a place for you. And Jesus, I'm going to paradise. Well, paradise that the word paradise so can also mean garden. Wait, what is going on? How do you have a garden that leaves that now is a garden city unless you have work and vocation and development and growth that is taking place? And what does it mean that you have a great clad of witnesses and where are these witnesses and when what are they doing, right? And so I would say, and then you have these experiences that actually, Lee and I were at an event together that we spoke at together and his book had just come out. And I remember him sharing about these, like, kind of these experiences with these hospice nurses. And I'm like, of course, so it makes complete sense, you know? Even just from like the physical, like, kind of almost like they come up and they raise their hands and there's like, there's just this moment of transition that's taking place, which by the way, in the strange theology, substect, there's an article by a guy named Leslie Garcia who wrote on martyrdom in the early church. And how she made this incredible statement where she was like a patristic scholar and she was like, Hey, in the first century church, martyrdom was seen as this time where it was an overlapping of the realms. And a lot of the martyrs kind of had this exact same experience, right? So you're seeing patterned behavior that's happening. And so I would just say like to your daughter, I'd be like, the specifics. I was like, maybe I don't know. I don't know that it will, it'll be me. So what I can assure you of is that you won't be alone and that there will be family there, loved ones there. And more than anything, there will be Jesus there, you know? And so like depending on the age of your child, you know, then you can go into like, if like my teenage kids, like I'd be like, guys, you know, one of the things that we don't understand well is the idea of time. Right. We have a God who lives outside of time. So is it a possibility that it's almost like you've got these like a marvel timeline in universes that are all happening in different timelines, but they're all converging into one spot. And so at the end of our timeline, there might be a convergence spot that happens, like that's a plausibility or there might be a possibility that it's one timeline. And once again, this is so unique and interesting, not unique. It's so interesting because it recalls the Old Testament stories of how Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, they're all very concerned about where their bodies are laid to rest. They're very concerned about being in the tomb of their ancestors, right? And so it's like, is it possible that we have grandparents and loved ones that on this side of attorney, maybe we never even met. I think of my wife, her grandmother, she was very close to Janice, passed away. Grandma Janice passed away before we were even married, like a year before we got married. And my kids have never met their great grandma Janice. Is it possible that grandma Janice is there? And because you're now in the New Havens and the New Earth, it's almost like a kind of kindness and a grace of the Lord that fills our like brain, like in the New Heavens, of like, oh, that's Grandma Janice. And it's like, we get all the feelings and all the memories and all the things of our mom or our dad. And it's like, we meet this person for the first time, but it's like, I've always known it's like the Carliques of Nardia. You're right. You can take one that meet Aslan. I feel like I've known you my whole life. Yeah. It's like, of course, of course, you've just in a different way in a different experience. So that's kind of like the way I would want to be in conversation about a question like that's like, hey, we've got these anchor points throughout scripture that might not tell us A plus B equals C, but it starts to paint a picture of a possibility. And where we're led to is a place of hope, not anxiety, a place of like assurance, not fear. Yeah. It was interesting because he said in his book that, you know, when there are children who tragically pass away when they're young, maybe if something chronic. So they, you know, have a sense that it's coming. It's not an accident or something like he says that they have a lot of peace and that it's remarkable because, you know, a small child, the toddler, the three year old, the four year old, often they don't even want to go to preschool because they don't want to be away from their parents. And yet they have this piece and can often they can like reassure their parents that they're going to be okay. So there's just a lot, it's a lot to think about like the imagination piece, the creativity piece and the diving deep piece that the Bible has so much for you to, it's accessible. It's practical and deeply personal, like you said. And just this endless resource of things that you can study and be curious about and expand your mind about. So the book is fantastic. It is called the unseen battle, spiritual warfare, the three rebellions, Christ victory of and Christ victory over dark powers. It is out today. Then people can check out all of your other stuff. You cover questions like how old will I be in heaven? Like that's a question everybody has. So people can go to your, I'll make sure I put the links in, but you cover all these, you know, a lot of things and a lot of questions that kids ask. So it's just so many wonderful resources, Joel. So I appreciate your time, love the book. We always end our show with the same question. What's a favorite memory from your childhood? That was outside. Oh, a favorite one for my childhood is outside is my cousins and I used to ride our bikes outside. And we, for us as like going a block, felt like we went to a different world, you know, and there was this thing where we would always push the boundary a little bit. And I remember the feeling of being terrified going to that next street, you know, like it felt like we had, but it was just something so special that my cousins and I shared that we just rode together and we laughed together and we experienced like risk almost in a way that was like, yeah. And so that man, I missed those days, I missed those days of just riding bikes. Yeah, not e-bikes, like old school bikes, like yeah, get a pedal. I love it. Joel, huge congrats on your new book. Thanks so much for being here. Appreciate you.