EPI 237: The Incredible Health Benefits Of Being OUTDOORS & How It Improves Our Lives As We Age. With NY Times Bestselling Author Caroline Paul

Welcome back to another episode of the Peak Performance Life podcast. Today, I am very excited to have an author. She has written a bunch of books, I think several at this point. The one that we are going to be probably talking the most about today is called Tough Broad, From Boogie Boarding to Wing Walking, How Outdoor Adventure Improves Our Lives as We Age. And this is a deeply researched exploration into the science and psychology of the outdoors and our place in it as we age. We have so much good stuff to talk about here. And thank you so much for joining us, Caroline. I'm excited, Talor. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Well, let's start with a little bit of background about your story and kind of how you got into the work that you're doing today, the books that you're writing. I mean, I was not always a writer. I had a career as a firefighter. I was a San Francisco firefighter for many years. I was like the 14th woman into the fire department back in the late 80s. And there were 1500 men. So it was a but it was an incredible experience for me. And it made me honestly a better person all around that work. When I retired, I didn't know what to do with myself. So I began to write and I'd already written a memoir about being a firefighter. And so I found myself honestly on my sixth book, a seventh book, published book. And I don't, didn't really have a brand, but I decided that this book was going to be a quest. Usually I write a book and I know where I'm going. But for this one, I was 55. I'm 62 now, but I was 55. And I was wondering what my own later phase of life was going to be. I'd always been an adventurer. I have done things from paragliding to flying gyrocopters, to surfing, to going around the world, doing whitewater rivers. And I looked around and it looked like I was supposed to be pulling back on life now that I was almost 60. So I didn't really want to do that. And I decided to go on a quest to find out about aging and this final stage and what was really going to be good for me. I love that. I absolutely love that. Man, I'm trying to think of this book that I read many years ago as well that really reframed my mindset around it because it's like, you know, as you get older, you start and people mean well, but you go to a little get together and it was, oh, I'm getting so old and I'm so sore and I'm so this and I'm so that. And I read a book, I think it was called Aging or Ageless, How to Rise Like a Phoenix from the Myth of Aging, he said. And this guy talked about how he broke powerlifting records at like, you know, for his age group at like age 65 or something like that. And it was really inspiring. And it started with actually helped me become aware of this negative talk and these limiting beliefs about, oh, I'm getting older, I can't do this. And it really helped me reframe like, oh, wow, it is possible. So I love hearing this part of your story and would love to learn more about what you found. Well, the interesting thing was, well, first of all, I remember specifically, I was surfing in this big winter swell and I looked around and there was no women my age out there. And I'm not a good surfer. I'm not even trying to be coy. I wish I was a good surfer. I would tell you if I was, and I'm not. And I looked around and it was all men, men my age and a lot older. And I knew there were a lot of women who could handle this big, heavy swell much better than me. I'm a good paddler, I will say. And I started to wonder why aren't women out here? I saw men my age and older, but not women. And it's not that I hadn't been aware of this toxic messaging that you're talking about, but it's really, really hard for women. And once I started really paying attention, I realized all the messaging that we get from the media or younger people or our own selves about how the aging process sucks. And that's really hard on your confidence. So I'm sure it's the same for men. This book is called Tough Broad, but it really could be tough broad and tough dudes because it is for men will get a lot out of this research as well. But that day on the surf really sent me on a path to wondering if I was doing the right thing by being out there because I wanted to stay out there like those men. What I realized, Talora, which you'll find really interesting, almost right away in my research, came upon something that really gobsmacked me. It changed everything, actually, which is the science that says the way we look at our own aging predicts how well we age. I think people know an optimistic outlook is really important for your happiness and longevity. No. Very specifically, it's how we look at our own aging predicts how well we age. And the studies show that those who have a negative view of their own aging will experience cardiac events earlier, cognitive decline earlier. And if you have an optimistic view about your aging journey, you think that your aging journey is going to be full of more adventure and more opportunity and more exploration, then you are not only happier and healthier, You live seven and a half years longer. Wow. That is incredible. If someone's listening right now, I think many people may not even realize that they're talking negatively or that they're looking at this topic negatively. What would be something that someone who is looking at it negatively would say or think compared to someone who is looking at it positively? How would they kind of be looking at it? Like, what are some of the things they would say to themselves, you think? I mean, I look deeply into this. And as a woman myself, I see the self-talk that we do as a result of the information that we're given or even just the cultural messages, which is that I am going to be frailer. I have my bones are going to start breaking. And I'm certainly going to be on a cognitive decline. I should be pulling back on my activities. I should be, and culturally, I am less relevant. I am no longer of reproductive age, so I'm not giving children. I might have changed. My sexual desirability has changed a lot. I'm possibly retired. Now I'm not even supposedly contributing to society, supposedly. So all this is a weight that we carry. Whether we're actually saying it out loud or not, it's a weight that we carry and you will start to see it in your own life. It's less what you say. It's the way your life looks. If your life is starting to look like very, um, you're, you're stopping things that you used to enjoy. You're not learning new things. You're not challenging yourself physically. You're not opening up. That is, I think, then, you know, that you are sort of reacting to messages that are, first of all, patently false, but definitely very powerful. Yeah, that's so good, especially because I literally have as one of my goals for this year, stop talking negatively about like, because like last year, I got injured a few times trying to push myself to like a limit or whatever, but doing it in a stupid way or whatever the case may be anyway. And so I kind of got into this thing, like, I, where I was talking about it with friends, like, Oh, yeah, I keep getting hurt, or, you know, or whatever. And it was just kind of the story. And then, like, someone said to me, is like, why are you? Why are you always getting hurt? You're not that old, you know, something like that. And I was like, Yeah, like, I'm like, that's true. And it's like, I need to stop talking this way, I need to change the way I'm talking. And so like, literally, one of my goals for this year is like, don't say anything negative to yourself about, you know, about that and expect, like, there's no reason for me not to be healthy and get through this whole year, you know, without any injuries, and while still pushing myself physically to a good point. So I just absolutely love this. Well, as a woman, I actually do feel on a very real level that physically, things are really coming together when I hit 60, believe it or not, like, that's the time when I'm supposed to be falling apart, but I'm post menopausal. So perimenopause, which you probably don't have any experience with, definitely not personally, but you know, or we're all around us, women between 45 and 57 are going through this really tumultuous hormonal and physical change. And when that's over, we're kind of at our best selves. And I think we need, so this book is really rally and cry like, hey, don't slow down now, man. You're past all the tough stuff. You really are. I mean, okay, I want to make, obviously, I hope everybody is in good financial situations and health situations. There are, of course, but this can happen at any time when you can be financially unstable and you can lose your health at any time. But in general, for those of us who are lucky enough to in general just arrive here mostly healthy. This is an incredible time. So to say, uh-oh, I better pull back is such a waste. And so what I found is this toxic messaging is so powerful that just like saying, I think it's great not to talk about aging. Whenever somebody else says something like, oh, it's my birthday. I'm so sad. I'm like, are you kidding? Getting older rocks. Like it is all our experience, all our wisdom, all our physical, like muscle memory. There's so much that is, it is intersecting at this moment. And so, and I, so I do counter that kind of talk and I never fall into it anymore. But more than that, I think that the messaging is so much more insidious than, than some, you know, positive talk can, can, can kill. So this is where going outside is so powerful, especially for women, because the messages are telling us that we're weak, we're not smart cognitively anymore, you know, things are just be cautious. But when you go outside, that upends all those myths. So for instance, I went and interviewed these women who boogie board together in San Diego. And one of the women said, you know, the thing about going into this ocean is that it's huge. It's cold. It tumbles me around. We get in the water when no one else will. And I'm 62 years old and I'm doing this. And I saw that the, the, the fact that she was just getting in the water and playing in the waves was upending those expectations that she and others had of her at that age. Yes. And that was a powerful messaging that got so inside her just body. She was, she was embodying this, you know, three times a week, this adventurous spirit where you couldn't possibly say she was weak, you know, mentally deficient and boring. You couldn't because there she was doing things that people were like, wow, you go in the water at, you know, breathing is windy. And I saw that over and over again with the women that I interviewed when they picked up an outdoor activity. It upended these expectations that they had of their aging process and it gave them this powerful, you know, mental, you know, hurrah that they were doing this. Yeah. Is any activity, obviously any activity is better than no activity at all, but you, you seems you specifically are focusing on outdoors. Do you have any more kind of reasons why specifically outdoors and not just, you know, going to Pilates class or something? Well Pilates class is great and and going to the gym is great But here why I think the outdoors is the most powerful tool for a positive view for your aging journey And that is because I, during my research, I saw that there's definitely four pillars of healthy aging. And most, these are the ones that I read the most often. They are, you have to have community. You have to have novelty. you have to have purpose and you have to have your health. And, and the final thing that I add is you have to have a positive view of your own aging journey. So with those five things, your aging journey is going to be full of exploration and adventure. And I didn't find anything that hit all those five things at once. Yes, you can go to the gym and you can get some community and you can get some, um, obviously physical health, or you can give a book club and you'll have novelty and community. I mean, there's all these definite things that you shouldn't be cutting out. But when you go outside, it hits all five of those pillars constantly on a subconscious level, on a very conscious level. And that's why it's so powerful, especially that last one, a positive view of your own aging journey, just because it upends all those myths by showing you that you are actually powerful physically, powerful mentally, powerful psychologically. Yes, yes, I absolutely love that. And by the way, we've had a lot of holistic health nutritionists, doctors, people like that on the show before. And a couple of them basically swear by the fact of being outdoors and getting sunlight every day. And, you know, again, being around, people talk about the ocean being an incredible thing just for your body and healing and energy and everything else as well. So there's certainly that part of it as well. But, yeah, you mentioned a lot of other things around the psychology behind being outdoors. And just, yeah, talk a little bit more about the psychology there. I mean, I want I just again and again saw that. So I want another person that I interviewed was a woman who had never she was actually I had never met anyone who had had less outdoor experience. She grew up in India. She she said she played badminton and that was it. And then she came to the United States and the limits of her exercise outdoors was walking to lunch with her co-workers. Then she came to California and she went to the doctor and the doctor said, hey, you got to change some of these numbers, your weight, your sugars, your blood pressure. And the doctor said, I know you have a pool at your little condominium where you live. I think you should swim. And she said, I don't know how to swim. And the doctor said, well, just take swim lessons. And she was she was 68. And so but she had this adventurous spirit, even though it had never been applied to the outdoors. And she went and she took swimming lessons and she learned to swim. And so I went and swam with her. And she doesn't swim, you know, with any, with the sort of technical perfection that someone who's been swimming a long time, but she swims with joy. And she told me that all her numbers changed and people told her that she looked more confident. But the really powerful thing that struck me was that she said, she thought, oh, I can swim. I wonder what else I can do. And thus began this journey of like opening up her life, just at a time where you would be thinking that she would start really kind of narrowing it down. And she began to walk in the hills and do all these other things. And I did see that over and over again, too. Yeah, yeah, that's so good. For people that want to develop this positive psychological view, I think one thing is, is you just mentioned is actually taking an action step and doing something that you didn't think you could do, right? I remember when I hadn't played soccer for 20 years and I was like, how can I start playing soccer now? These guys have all, and then I just started and then I just played and then, you know, and it was great. And so I think that's one way is taking action. But also it's like the self-talk and like you mentioned, having a positive outlook of kind of yourself and of the aging process. Is there any tips or tricks there for how people can get to change that psychology a little bit? Well, that's what I'm saying is it's very hard to just sort of say, you know, like you're doing homework. I'm going to change my psychology. It just, there's so much messaging that is so subconscious that I just don't think what you need to do is submerge yourself and be, just be that thing that you're trying to tell yourself to be. And I think when you go outside, you can't help but be that. Even if you, I interviewed someone that walks a lot and that doesn't seem like a big adventure, But so just to circle to the outside stuff, just going outside itself is they've shown as your, what did you call them? Health people? Like holistic health practitioners. Like they don't, but they might not have the research. But I looked into the research and there's things like, you know, the chemicals from trees lowers our blood pressure. birdsong if you hear birdsong that tells the primal part of our brain that there's no predators about and so that is relaxing and mentally calming in a lot of other countries they actually put aside of parks so that their citizens can take guided walks because they understand how stressed people are becoming and so it's like a guided walk and it's very simple just walk here you know sit on this bench, look at this lake. I mean, it's just a suggestive walk and it's, it's taxpayer, their taxpayer money pays for this because they understand they have the power trail. And I think it's Norway. It's one of the Scandinavian countries where again, there's a trail that you walk and it, and it imbues you with a lot of mental health because of the things, because just being in nature does this. There's a study that shows that the soft sort of rounded shapes of nature, they actually match well with our retinal structure. So absorbing information in nature is not stressful for our brain. It doesn't take up a lot of space. Whereas if you're out in an urban environment, there's a lot of hard architectural edges, lots of hard sunlight, lots of loud noises. There's a lot of filtering that the brain has to do. And so they've shown that if you take a walk in just as green a space as possible, the greener, the better, the more wilderness, the better, but sometimes we don't have access to that. Your mental health improves radically. So how did I get on that, man? I get so excited. I start pivoting and then I'm gone. Oh, this is great stuff. We were talking about changing our psychology around aging. Just being out. So just, this is why the outdoors is so powerful. It's not homework. You just go outside and embody it. Just be there, be yourself, be who you are. And the magic of, and it's the science too, of the mother nature will start healing you and helping you. But the mere physical activity of movement helps. So all that, so you don't have to do what I did was, you know, go, I didn't actually base jump. That is the one thing I did not do because my family was like, nope, you are way too accident prone. But I did learn to fly a gyrocopter or I went sea kayaking. I went on a base jumping adventure. I was just ground crew. You don't have to do the big burly stuff. If it suits you, do it. But if it doesn't, I also interviewed a bird watcher. I was interested in how we adapt as we age to being outside because people are like, oh, I can't go outside. I'm, you know, this knee, this knee hurts, this, you know, I have this back issue. Well, I interviewed a woman named Virginia Rose, who's in a wheelchair, and she goes birdwatching. And so I, I knew that if Virginia could get outside, you know, all, most of us can get outside. Almost all of us can get outside. And while I was, so we went on a bird watching, it was actually a bird-a-thon. So we ended up walking and wheeling. There were some, there were a lot of people in wheelchairs and there were some walking people. What did they call us? Walkers? Anyway, they, we did six miles. So you don't have to do that either. You, I interviewed one of the bird watchers and he had a very, very aggressive form of MS and he was 30 something. And he said that he thought he was just bound to be inside his house for the rest of his life. And then he started getting interested in birds. So he started watching them from his kitchen window, but they, he gradually then went out onto his patio. Then he started going out in his backyard and then the power of birds pulled him and he began going out on trails until he was on this six mile bird-a-thon with me. So, I mean, he could have stayed on his patio also and gotten the benefits of being outside. But of course, the more you do, the better. But it's not, that's, I guess the beauty of outside is that, yeah, you're just sort of imbued with this positive outlook as you engage with it. You don't have to make yourself have one. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And there have been, you know, I don't know, I remember years ago hearing about Like if you actually go out into an open field or like look up to the sky, you will literally be more open compared to, for example, if you're looking at your phone where you're like tunnel vision, you know, and not getting any of that. And so, I mean, for me, it's very important. I try to get morning sunlight every morning and go outside and look up to the sky and kind of get this openness because it's almost like we're trapped indoors most of our days unless you make a real effort to go out. And I can just feel, I mean, think about the difference. You're sitting like on a couch, hunched over, looking at a phone versus outside open sky and kind of just literally your brain and your mind is more open, not to mention all the benefits of the sunlight and the greenery and everything else that you're getting. So I think it's incredible. Well, actually, you've hit on a chapter that I wrote about, which is this concept of awe. So awe is something that we usually associate with religious experiences. But in fact, it's been very much studied in the past five years, 10 years. And basically, awe is that feeling you get in the face of something sort of more powerful, mysterious, a little bit of dread that you feel, a little bit of fear. this sort of sense that you're smaller. It's what you get when you have a religious experience, but also if you go out, like you said, and look at the night sky. So it's not just that it's open, it's that you're actually feeling this sense of awe. And they've shown that awe lowers your blood pressure. It lowers anxiety and depression. And it makes you feel more connected to other people and they've done studies that some of which were weird, like they, you're, they did a study where you're in the redwoods and a scientist disguised as a person interested in the redwoods would just drop a pen. And the people around them were much more likely to pick it up because they were in the redwoods. Then they, then Trent pens that were dropped, you know, at another place. And they connected that to this feeling of awe. And the cool thing and so the reason I wrote about awe is because going outside is like an automatic awe trigger So much is awe outside the sky a big tree a beautiful bird a tiny insect views and that has a profound change on us The really cool thing is that they did a study here in San Francisco where they took people between the ages of 60 and 80, and they asked them to go on a walk. and the only instruction was to look at everything with fresh childlike eyes with wonder basically and they found that and then they had a control group who walked like we all walk like to-do lists on our phone you know worried about something and they found they did it for eight weeks and they found the most amazing changes in the people who did what they called the all walks which were dropping, like I said, depression and in anxiety and their inflammation markers went down. Now that's a big one. You know, inflammation that we've been seeing as a root of a lot of diseases and it, the awe stayed. Like these people stayed with positive emotional markers and positive biological markers after the all walk after the eight week period. So all is powerful and lodges in you. And here's the thing. We live in a world of anti odd devices. I mean, like just like you said, like, all is not is open, and you feel not in control, whereas the phone is trying to tell you are in control. You know, you feel powerful, you feel all powerful, who wants to feel all powerful. That's stressful. You know, awe is they call it a healthy sense of yourself. So the other thing they did, and I almost forget this. And then it's so exciting. The other thing that they did with the all walkers and the walkers who were the control group, they said, Hey, last minute, they decided to do this. Can you just take a selfie of yourself during each all walk? And the beginning or walk the beginning, the all walkers in the very beginning, they took a selfie like we always do, you know, up there, your face is taking up the whole thing, snap. But as the all walks continued, the person's face got smaller and smaller and the background got bigger and bigger, which is like this metaphor or, and also just instructive of their mental state, how they were feeling more a part of their environment. And they call it the small self. Like they had a sense of their real place in the universe almost, right? We're not the center of the world. Like there's a lot going on. And the Allwalker selfies showed that just being out in nature and looking at things with wonder, fresh, childlike eyes changed things. Yes. Sorry, I got excited. I love that. I love talking about that. It's so cool. So point being, you know, you don't have to base jump. You don't have to go to the edge of the Grand Canyon or kayak the Grand Canyon. It'd be awesome if you did, but you can also just go on an all walk. Yeah, yeah. I think that's great. I think sometimes there are people, many of us have a hard time kind of getting out of our head or breaking this cycle of like, you know, being on our phones or whatever the case may be. And many people kind of have a very logical mind, right? Of like, well, you know, you don't know my situation and I can't this, or someone who doesn't maybe have a positive outlook on life, any advice for how they can start to shift that? If they're kind of like, well, she doesn't understand. I mean, I get it, but what about me? And I went through this or, you know, everyone has their own traumas or whatever the case may be. But to get out of this negative cycle and start to get into this positive cycle where we view the world as all. Like some people are like, oh yeah, oh, like, you know, they're not even in this state where they can really be aware of the awe sometimes. We need to kind of wake up, you know? I would say, I mean, two things. I still say like without even trying to be awestruck or trying to change your mindset, if you simply pick up an activity in the outdoors, you don't have to be good at it. Just do it. It will change you profoundly. just because of that activity. And it will, because it offers you community, novelty, physical health, purpose, and don't try to do any of those. It will come through that activity and it'll imbue you with a positive sense of your own aging journey. I just think there's no trying about it in terms of the actual change your negative. Just go get a physical activity. And again, I know people who might say, well, I don't like it to do that. I don't like going outside. And I won't argue with that if you really don't. I think maybe there's other ways to find what I'm talking about. but I challenge you because as human beings, I think it's very, very basic in us to be connected to the outdoors. You do not have to do something, you know, like again, you don't even, you don't have to get in a sea kayak. You don't have to even go boogie boarding with the 70 year olds in San Diego, but you can go on a walk. And I, I, I know you will be changed. I like that. So there's no, you're not trying to teach us positive psychology or, you know, change your mind through affirmations and visualizations, just go out there and get outside and the change will come naturally. Yeah. I mean, I know. I, does that sound weird? Cause it's, I like it over and over again. That's what the, I interviewed people who have all sort of, some of the women that I interviewed had been outdoors all their life, but most of them picked it up late. And usually it was from some inflection point, maybe the death of a partner, maybe retirement, maybe physical illness or physical like the doctor told them to or the COVID. And they don't go out there trying to, you know, become a better person, become positive, all these big sort of very idealistic and kind of big goals. they just want a little change like a change or maybe a friend just ask them to do it and they want to hang out with their friend and i and i think that there is something for you out there yeah i've heard of this uh i don't know if it's in japan it's more common but i've heard of this like forest bathing thing where they take people who are depressed and and it's like incredible the results that they get through that. Do you know anything about that? Yeah. No, I looked at that too because that's, again, under the rubric of nature itself is really good for our mental health as well as our psychological health and our physical health because of all these effects that, I mean, like the tree chemicals, like the fact there's no harsh sounds and hard edges. And this is neurological. This isn't just like, oh, that loud sound bothers me. No, on a neurological level, we need that. And the low level anxiety that living in a world that moves fast and is loud and breaks things is low level hard on us. It really is. Yeah. I mean, they have shown that people who go out and do go out into green spaces, and I can't remember the numbers they are in my book, but for a certain amount of time each week, and it's not very much, they self-report anxiety and depression levels dropping meaningfully, as well as blood pressure and cortisol levels, sugar levels, all the things that are also linked to your mental health. yeah yeah just by and i think it's good for people listening there are some people who want to know well why when i go outside why does it help me more and you mentioned a few of the things there just kind of the the sounds of nature versus versus hard you know beeping of horns and stuff like that that you might get in a city um we talked about sunlight being one of them you mentioned plant chemicals um also the i mean the one that blows me away again is the the fact that there's not a lot of hard edges in nature and our retinal structure is such that that we can really absorb that information easily so on a very deeply you know cellular neurological level our brain isn't working as hard when we're outside to filter out because our brain was made to like say danger not danger danger not danger and when we're in the city there's or in an urban environment or a louder, more high energy environment, the brain is working really hard. Like, is that, you know, red fiat coming at you? Is that dangerous? You know, there's so much information it's trying to give us or not give us depending on how important it thinks it is. But that filtering process is anxiety producing on a level that we don't, we don't necessarily clock consciously. So going outside on a really meaning in a meaningful way helps your mental health. Amazing. Amazing. You have some examples of some people who have kind of taken the plunge and at maybe at an older age, kind of starting getting more active. Do you have any cool stories there that you can share? uh yeah let's see I um well my own mom nice mom uh really began going outside in her I mean later 40s she had divorced my dad my dad's amazing but she sort of struck out on her own and started exploring new things. And when I was a kid, I didn't appreciate this for what it was. Eventually, she moved to a new town. She was in her 60s, early 60s, and she just wanted to meet people. And she, again, like thinks of herself as a pretty fearful person, not an adventurous person, and didn't grow up that way. Her mom was always cautioning her and it's not ladylike. And so she found herself in this town where she didn't know anybody, but she had a bike. She had bought a bike. She hadn't ridden it that much, but she had a bike and she thought, well, maybe I could meet people this way. I mean, I know how to bike. And so she went to this biking group of people about her age and older up until their nineties. They range from basically early sixties to nineties. and she started biking and there was a sea change in her um physically but also confidence wise and personality wise like she had always self-described as not a social person and here she was kind of organizing rides and she said she loved biking because it wasn't like a cocktail party where um you know you had to do small talk you know on a bike ride it's like let's stop for lunch uh turn left here like and if you didn't really want to chat chat with somebody you just biked away so she really it really fit her her socially and um and she began to love it and we didn't she became i mean i wouldn't say a new person but a person that we hadn't fully appreciated and maybe she hadn't either through this bike riding that she did and she rode her bike I mean she would I once went bike riding with her and I write about this and first of all she creamed me on the hill and secondly she came up she I heard her coming before I saw her and she was doing this weird breathing thing she later told me it was Lance Armstrong breathing exercises technique or something as she kind of whizzed by me on this hill and I was first of all humiliated but also really kind of psyched to see my mom just sew nails. And she biked until she was almost 80 And then she found that she was kind of wobbly on her bike And she thought oh it because I too old And she sort of gave up biking. She knew she could add tricycles to it if she needed to. And there were people that did that. She knew she could do a recumbent if she wanted to. Or there were options in terms of balance. But she thought that's not as fun. And I've had 20 years of biking. I'm just going to let it slip away. And she said she wasn't sad about it, but it was so obvious how sad she was about it. And about a year later, she was diagnosed with Parkinson's. Oh, no. And so she but she kind of made her feel better that she was like, OK, that's the reason that this was happening. It's not just me being, you know, weak. And she did other things. She always she still walks. And but she walked. She'd be in her garden. But it never took the place. it was never as powerful as that, that cycling, uh, those two cycling decades. And that I, I've, it's a kind of a sad story, but it's also an uplifting story because she picked it up at 60. And so she optimized 60, 70, all the way till 80 in ways that, you know, so many of us don't. And the cool thing about my mom is that I didn't realize this, but she was my positive messaging, about aging because when I started to age, I didn't have the same attitude that my friends did. I don't know that I realized it openly, but I had seen my mom blossom in her 60s onward. And as my friends were approaching 55, 60s, they were just groaning and moaning about it. And I was like, oh, I don't really feel like that. I feel like it's going to be kind of cool. But again, weighed down by the messaging, I did go on this quest to find out the science and research behind it so that I could be sure. But I'm really grateful to my mom because she allowed me to absorb a lot of positive messaging about my own aging. Yeah, that's beautiful. That is a great gift. I mean, when you see a parent and you see them in their 60s, 70s and 80s, you know, or up to 80 riding a bike. And then it's, what's your excuse, right? That's, I think that's incredible. And so being outdoors, maybe we can kind of give people, we've given a bunch of examples, obviously that, you know, walking and hiking is an easy one. If you have an ocean or, or a body of water near you that you can go to, that's another great one swimming and all that. But you don't have to swim. You just have to splash around. You can boogie board. But the wave chasers in San Diego, they don't, they, most of them don't boogie board the actual wave face. In fact, when I went there, I was like, I mean, I'm a, I'm a bad surfer, but I'm still a surfer. And I was like, I don't want to boogie board. That sounds boring. And sure enough, they were just coming in on the whitewater and I was like, huh, but then get in with them. And it's so freaking fun because everyone's having so much fun and it's so physical because you're getting tumbled and it's cold water. And yeah, it was amazing. And, and I got schooled a lot as someone who has been adventuring a long time. There were some aspects that I was like, I don't really think that's an adventure or that's, that could be life-changing, but I need to cover it anyway. So birdwatching was a great example. I did into bird. I'd never birdwatched. I am a pilot. So I was intrigued by birds in flight, but I'd never really taken some time to kind of stare and listen. But when I went birdwatching, I realized, oh, this is an adventure because there was the anticipation of, there was the quest to find the birds. There was the anticipation like, oh, did I hear something? And then there was exhilaration when you found the bird. And then of course, there was the physical activity of just being outside and walking or hardly walking. You don't have to walk that far. I like this distinction here because a lot of people, I mean, I'll just say myself, you know, when I think about, yeah, I got to get, you know, I got to get outside and get in the water. I think like, I got to like do something, but for, you know, you could just watch birds. You could just go for a walk and watch birds and still get incredible benefits from this. Incredible. And I saw it time and again, people upending their expectations of themselves and how powerful that is just by going outside with a new activity. I want to add something that novelty is really, so one of the things that we will all worry about as we age is our memory and our brains. And so novelty is really important to introduce into our life. And I think we were, you were talking, you were touched on this earlier, like, oh, I'm too old for that. I'm too old for this. I hear that a lot. People not wanting to pick up something because they're supposedly too old for it. Old dogs can't learn new tricks. But in fact, our brain keeps growing all the way pretty much until we die. If there's some problems in our brain, it's trying to divert around it to create new neural pathways. And you want to keep your brain still active and firing. And learning something new is one of the best ways to keep your brain super on it, thriving. And so going outside and learning something new is, you know, as small as it might be, learning how to birdwatch, learning how to boogie board is going to have incredible benefits. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the opposite of sitting at home on the couch, watching the news, you know, going outside, getting new experiences. Because, yeah, I mean, I've seen, you know, as my father, unfortunately, had some strokes a few years back, and he's kind of losing mobility more and more each year. And as he kind of just, especially in the winter times, which is, by the way, another thing I realized recently that I've been taking for granted, that I live in Las Vegas and get sun kind of pretty much all year round. You know, when I went to the East Coast over the holiday break, it was like, oh, wow, there's not a whole lot of sunlight here in the winter. So it's something I really took for granted that I'm really continuing to prioritize now. But, you know, with him in the wintertime, especially just sitting inside and watching TV all day because he's not very mobile anymore, I have really seen a deterioration in his brain as well as that happens. and he's not as social, right? He's not going out and playing tennis and then chatting with his tennis partners for a half hour after the game. And you kind of just really see that. And kind of, you know, even in like in Japan where kind of the older generation is more still a part of the family and everyone kind of will tend to live together for a longer period of time and they have that social interaction and they're looked up to, you know, whereas our culture is maybe a little bit different. And yeah, you can kind of see these differences and how powerful it is. So I'm just really, I really am grateful for this conversation. I think, I hope it really opened up a lot of eyes. I hope we, I hope this podcast can be the inspiration for many listeners to, similar to how your mom was, you know, an inspiration for you. Maybe people listening now can get inspired and kind of change the way they think about things. And don't worry about how, just go out there and do something outside. Yeah, baby steps. Baby steps. There's no need to, again, learn how to skydive or want to jump out of a plane. You don't have to do that. Just a baby step. Say yes. Say yes to someone who even just says, oh, do you want to come outside and look at this little bird? I mean you know I and the other thing that was interesting to me is that a lot of the women that I interviewed and again this is all relevant to men too is they they often did it alone because they didn't have a community because they weren't outdoors people who did outdoor things so they would simply use the internet I mean one of the women she would just type in when she kind of went on little road trips she'd type in something fun to do here question mark and all this list came up and she, or she, other people, uh, one woman that I talked to after her husband died and she knew she had to get out and socialize, she used meetups. So, I mean, just cause you're on the older side, doesn't mean you can't try to use what the internet can offer. Or if you have a young friend, ask them to help you with that because there are opportunities at your church, at your library, um, at your local rec center, uh, to, to do things, even if you don't know anybody. So baby steps. That's right. Caroline, this has been amazing. I think it's been very inspirational for many of our listeners. And I think they get the point. They got to get outdoors and do something, anything. Look at a bird. I love this. Love this advice. Where can people follow you, find you, get your book? The book is Tough Broad. The paperback looks a little different than the hardback. They like to change it around. You can get the book at your local independent bookstore. You can ask them. It's been out a little while, so you can just ask them to order it or it's on any of the book sites. I can be found on Instagram at CarolineMBPaul. And I'm on Facebook as well. I'm pretty easy to find. I have a website, carolinepaul.com. And I have a new book coming out in February. So come up to me at a reading and say hi. Amazing. Caroline, this has been great. And I hope we can do it again sometime. Thanks to Laura. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, it would really mean a lot to me if you would forward this episode along to any friends, family members, anyone that you think that would get value out of it and learn something important. The mission at Peak Performance is to to help people prioritize and transform their health. And so if you think someone will get value, please, please, please do forward this episode along to them. Also, if you could please rate and review and subscribe on whatever podcast player you are listening to this on, we would greatly appreciate that as well. It means a lot. And I want to tell you about a couple of new products that we just released. 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