Unlocking the Truth About Love: Healing the Wound Beneath Conflict with Odette & Dave Annable (Part 1)

Hi, I'm Andrea Bendewald, but everyone calls me Dre. For the past three decades, I've been leading circles with extraordinary people, artists, healers, entrepreneurs, and innovators. Circling is a way of bringing people together. It's so simple. We gather in a circle and share our stories, dreams, experiences, ideas, hopes, and fears, often based on a prompt or a theme, and with certain guidelines used to create a space that's sacred and intentional. And what happens is that everyone has a chance to see and be seen for who they truly are, and a collective wisdom is revealed. And for years, I heard the call to share this with more people. That's this podcast. It's an extension of my life in circles, and my hope is that these conversations will inspire deeper connection to yourself, your communities, and the universe. Welcome to Circle This. Welcome. Hi, get on in here. Today's guests are two people I care deeply about both as individuals and as a couple. Odette Annable and Dave Annable. Actors, storytellers, both insanely easy on the eyes. And both have built noteworthy and expansive acting careers. Odette threw her roles on Supergirl, Three and a Half Men, and Walker, and Dave threw his roles on Brothers and Sisters, Yellowstone, and Lioness. They are the first couple to join us on Circle This, and we get into some nitty-gritty real life talk about growing up in marriage, separation, projection, how to work through our own issues while in a chosen partnership. And here's something super fun. I've had the honor of being their acting coach for close to a decade. long before they had kids, back to when our work explored the lines between art and life, deep conversations about love, the meaning of it all, identity, and how we stay connected through change, big change. This conversation is beyond a full circle moment for me. I'm very emotional about having them on and all the different parts coming together. It's a well earned, honest, deeply human reveal of what modern partnership is and can be. We had so much to talk about. There's a part two coming up after this episode. We circle back to some of the juiciest stuff we touched on. So pull up a chair, turn up the volume. Let's circle this with Dave and Odette. over i'm like so in love with love right now which is perfect that you guys would be doing this episode and i'm probably going to cry because i already cried once earlier today or because of us because of you too because i was i'm learning this about myself that Like, I know you guys on the soul level, on the heart level. Like, we haven't spent physical time together. I used to coach you one-on-one, sure. But that's, like, that's the frequency of which we have known each other for years. Years? How many years? Like, I haven't been to, like, a barbecue with you is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. Like, if I saw you at Target, it would freak me out for a second. You know, like, real world, Andre. Like, oh, my God, the real world, Andre. But thank God we, I mean, you are everything to us. Thank God we did have that sort of physical in-person connection before then moving to another city. So as we kept the relationship going and working over a computer, it still feels so normal and natural. Yeah, and so intimate. You know, this podcast is all about connection and how wild it is that we've kept this intimate connection via Zoom. I'm just like tripping out over how much I feel for the both of you. Well, it's interesting. And seeing you two together is like overwhelming. I know. And I'm not in my coaching, but I'm not in my coaching half. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got no work to do. There's, you know, I always find that there's obviously coaching, but an overwhelming part of our sessions together is talking about our life and the intricacies of lifing and being a human. And I think that that's why I connected so deeply with you right away, because you allowed me to see, I mean, when we were coaching, a character in a different way that I'd never even thought about. I mean, you could even give me a line reading, not that you wanted to or you just said it. I'm like, oh, my God, that's how you say it. Oh, my God, this woman is so, when we were first working together, so fascinating. And then I just got to know you on this like deeper level. And I said, Dave, you've got to meet Andrea. She's so incredible. And it's interesting because Dave felt this very same connection. And that doesn't always happen, right? Right. It was immediate as well. Yeah. You know, I was blown away by, you know, your sort of spirituality and the soulfulness and sort of having conversations about life, which we then would equate to characters or acting or that experience. but really it's like it's a half therapy half work and you were such a friend to us in a very tough time personally which had nothing to do with work and that I think is the most important they'll never remember what you say but they'll remember how they make you feel and we still haven't had dinner together literally I mean literally It's crazy. It's crazy. I am realizing this about myself. It's like this is how I am with most people. Like it's – and this is who I am when I'm holding a circle. Like I will connect with people on the soul level, but I don't know what they do for a living. Yeah, right. Or I don't know like what kind of car they drive. Or I don't know their kids. I know your kids through you. But, yeah, God, it's so wild. the fascination I have with humanity and with connection and with love and with storytelling. So that's all that I loved doing with you guys was, you know, breaking down how to tell a story. I don't even know how you guys met. I don't even know. Like, there's so much I don't know about you. Do you really not? I mean, maybe you'll draw my memory. You were a key part of us getting back together as a couple when we were divorcing. But you don't even know how we met. Yeah. Isn't that wild? Wild to me. Yeah, yeah. Because you met us at a time when we already had Charlie or no? No. It's one of my favorite stories because Odette was a fan. That's how we – I married a fan. Fuck me. Like, no. Technically. Yeah, technically, yes. Technically. So she wrote me a letter from prison and some sort of text or another offshore account or something. Oh, my God. At first, I really denied, you know, the truth of this, the fandom. But I kind of was. But it was only because I was in another relationship. This was 20 years ago. So Dave's face came on the screen, and it was an ad for Brothers and Sisters, a show that he was on a long time ago. And I kind of had vomit of the mouth. I was like, wow, that guy's so cute. Who is that guy? And everybody hated my ex. I was on a show called October Road, and I went to set. I was like, ooh, everybody's like, who's your celebrity crush? I'm like, I don't know this guy. I don't even know his name, Dave Annabelle. I was saying it wrong. and my producer in the back of his head, he was like, I'm going to make this connection because he knew Dave's showrunner. And we had a, he dragged me over to Dave one, like an upfront. And I was like, I don't want to meet the guy. I just thought he was cute. Like, what are you doing? And that was our first. Yeah, I was talking to my boss and he's like, I think somebody wants to talk to him. So I turned around and Odette's very tall, 5'9", the heels. I was like, oh my God, you're beautiful. I literally had vomit in the mouth. I was like, I can. And that's not like a normal, you know, I'm not like, oh. I said it out loud, and she's like, I can hear you. I was like, oh, my God. Hi. I got very awkward. I was like, okay, cool. So, anyway, I'll see you later. About to a year later. You know, that was a year later. We're at Teddy's. I don't know if you've ever been to Teddy's. The Roosevelt one, back in the day when it was fun, it was like a private bar. Louncy. Louncy thing they had there. Anyway, so a year later, I go in, and I see Odie dancing on the dance floor. but I didn't remember meeting her. It was that quick. I was like, yo, this girl's... He didn't remember me to hear. This girl's a smoke show. I went over and I started to start dancing with her and I'm like, hi, I'm Dave. She goes, hi, we've met. And that's my boyfriend over there. Then I started doing the Roger Rabbit out of there. Cut to one year later. So we're two years in now. Two years. Two years removed. I'm single for like a month. And my younger sister's in town. And she goes, I want to see celebrities. And I go, oh, my God. So we went to an MTV party back then. And I had remembered meeting Odie after that second encounter. And I saw her walking down the red carpet. I was like, oh, my God, that's that girl that, like, I've weirdly run into twice. And she's like, well, say it. What's that? She was like, well. You don't know this story? No. So my sister's like, well, go say hi. I was like, no, I'm not going to say hi as soon as she comes off the red. That's weird. You know, let her mingle for a little bit. So, you know, basically an hour later, my sister's like, I saw Ryan Felipe. I'm good. We can leave. I was like, okay. I was like, but let me find this girl. Let me do a lap and let me find this girl. And we do a lap. And then I see Odie in a closed circle of eight girls. I think it was eight girls. And I was like, oh, my God, I can't. There's nothing. You can't penetrate. I can't penetrate that. Please tell me you did. No, no, no. I posted up, and I just, like, stared. And I just had a very similar situation where my girlfriend, her sister, was in town. She said, I want to go see celebrities. I swear. And so I said, all right, there's a TV party. Let's go. So we go, we don't see anybody that she was interested in seeing, except at the end of the night, she goes, wait a second. That's that guy from Brothers and Sisters. And God, he won't stop staring at you, Odie. And I'm like, oh, my God, this guy. It's been two years. Like, go talk. Go talk to him. And I was single. I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. That's so weird. She pushes me, and we, like, do the, like, oh, my God. And I remember that she had a boyfriend. So I wasn't going to, like, I had to get to the chase. So I was like, hi, Dave. I was like, man, last time I met, I was trying to dance with you. Your boyfriend was right there. And I was like, you don't have to worry about that. And I was like, ooh. I was not messing around. But I also was like, are you going to ask for my phone number? Because we kind of hit it off right away, and he wasn't. And I could tell he was so nervous. And doing the small talk, introduced me to his sister. He was like, oh, I have to go to work in the morning. I'm like, ooh, you're on a hit TV show. Sorry, bro. You have to go to work. and he still wasn't asking for my number. I said, okay, I'm going to leave. I'm going to go back to my girlfriend's. And it was like three, two, one. Hey, do you think it'd be cool if maybe, no, it'd be weird. I'm like, do you want my phone number? Yeah, that'd be great. Okay. Oh, my God. So my favorite little Odie part, this is a character who she is. I text her the next day. I was like, hey, you know, do you want to, you know, double work? Do you want to come over for every drink? Do you want to go for dinner? her she's like well how about you call me instead of texting me i was like oh shit so i so i call her and i'm like well you know what are you thinking do you want to do she's like well how about you figure it out and call me back and i go i go this girl damn i called my buddy i called matthew i'm like matt what i was like what do i do he goes do you like her i was like yeah it's like we'll take her to dinner so i call her back and i'm like bam made reservations mastros we're going to dinner. She goes, I should have told you I'm a vegetarian. I go, what? Oh, God, this is why we should have. She goes, dude, relax. I'm fucking with you. I was like, this girl. Brought the heat, you know? Brought the heat. That's right. 20 years later. That was it. 20 years later. There's 47,000 things I love about this story. The fact that on the soul level, you kept circling around each other and bumping into each other with the same themes, that you both came to that last party with your siblings who wanted to meet famous people? Yeah. Right? Wild. And that they were like fans, and they were like, this is what I want to do, and that you were his fan. I mean, it's so beautiful. Like with me and timing. I was just going to say, exactly. Timing is just everything. It wouldn't have worked out. those you know those two previous encounters for sure and we just happened to both be very recently single which we had to iron out you know in early in our relationship but we happened to be both single at that time yeah it's timing everything it's all everything and you both saw each other so clearly she was like she showed you her strength her humor her directness her visibility or she waited. Like, who she is and who you are, which is, you know. Well, she shot. I felt safe right away. I certainly knew that I couldn't, you know, mess with him or I was maybe just testing the waters to see how he could handle the heat. You know what I mean? I don't think you really care, too. Like, it's not something you were, like, looking for or... No, I wasn't. So, you know, the stakes were high for you if I didn't, you know, somehow hit all the right beats. Well, I was single for the first time in, I mean, in so long. And previous to that, I was also in a relationship. And I was so young. I was 22 when we met. Yeah, so she was already 22. And she had been in a, what, three-year relationship? It was a four-year relationship. And then previous to that, it was like another high school four year deal. And we got married when I was 25. So, wow. Really young. So you've grown up together. I mean, I was 30. So I was a kid. Not even. You turned 30 when we were dating. But we've met many different versions of each other throughout the years. And if you go back and you just give a little love to those different versions of ourselves, I have to say, I feel very proud of Dave, of our relationship in general, just looking back and seeing that we were able to sort of move mountains together and then go through these valleys and then get back up to the peaks and really just like continue to find each other. And obviously we'll get into, you know, sort of our big separation. And still, I mean, it was like the universe, God, whatever you want to say, really is like, actually, guys, no. We're doing this. Yeah. During the pandemic, right? Yeah. Okay, wait. Hold on. Everybody just calm down. I know. You're already getting into the memes. I'm going to circle back to a couple of things that you shared. What you just described is something that I learned from a therapist, which was that you figured it out. You figured out the key to a healthy relationship from my understanding, which is we fall in love and we're supposed to kind of merge and fuse and become one. or that's the old paradigm way of thinking like, oh, you're the only person in the world for me. And I, you know, everything we do, we do together. And now we're this one unit. And then he explained to me, that's important, that kind of bonding and that like, we're going to, we're going to survive together. And then you're supposed to individuate. And you're supposed to kind of become these two separate entities who then decide to go through the peaks and valleys separately. Some you're going to ride together, but some you're going to do separately. And can you stay and be, it's called like interdependent then after that. And some people can and some people, you know, don't choose to keep riding the wave because they think, oh, he's up, she's down. Okay, it's not working out. when really it's impossible to ride the same wave at the same time in the same way and stay standing. To use a metaphor. I love a metaphor. Yeah. Well, I think it's so what we've learned, what I've learned is knowing that there's like truly knowing that there's going to be valleys and there's going to be peaks, like truly having an awareness that, okay, we're in one right now, which means we've got to figure out, we've got to communicate, We got to see what's going on and learning how to do the work, right? Because it's work. Like, we're not going to sit here and say, oh, my God, this is the greatest thing ever. We're destined to be. Like, we're so like, you know, half the time she's like, you know, go to the basement, live in the basement. You know, and I'm like, okay. It's always going to be work. But we really, truly understood that we have to put in the work as a couple, But that also means being self-reflective and understanding, you know, your capacities and your ceilings and everything that you can do to support the marriage. You know, it's a lot. It's a lot. You know, and thankfully, I never saw my life going through, you know, the direction of self-work and healing and therapy and all that stuff. but like, holy shit, it works. If you really put in the time, it's gotten us through so many hurdles of just, oh, actually, okay, I do see that. It hurts to say it. That's my ego. You're right, you know? I think that's a big thing, though, when the idea of, it's so simple, right? But the idea of riding the waves with your partner, even if they're not the hardship as a couple, but as an individual and not immediately saying, oh, he's going dark. I don't know what's going on here. I think I'm out. I think that comes with time and understanding that you have to go through that. And at the end of it, your relationship will be better. You'll understand your person better. But if you're always one foot out the door, which when I was younger, I think there was a mentality where I was like, this is too hard. It shouldn't be this hard. I'm out. And now I just see it so much differently. And I could, by the way, you know, in hindsight, I could feel that, right? That was, you know, our therapist had said something pretty interesting. It's like, when we fight now, majority revolve around something as simple as I'm saying, am I safe? And she's saying, am I worthy? You know, in all the different, yeah, in all the different ways. And that has really brought us together. I'm like, oh, we're fighting now. Like, is it because I feel like you're going to walk out? Like, do I feel safe right now? You know, like I should feel safe. And that's why I feel worthy. I'm always like, hey, it's me. I am. I'm great. I'm great. Do you see that? Do you see that? And so that's our thing, you know? You nailed that. He did. So I was just about to ask this theory if you could identify it, and I think you just did. And so the theory is when we fall in love, we fall in love with the one thing we think this person is going to give me. And then my understanding is that that's exactly where they will fail you so that you learn to give it to yourself. Oh, yeah. And if you can, then you can continue on. So it sounds like, does that apply to what you just said? Yes, a little bit. I think you just took it to the next level, actually, because I think that there's, in the way where he needs to feel safe, me understanding that we're going to go through, do this and do that and have the peaks and valleys and me not immediately go to, well, this is too hard, I'm out, is something that he feels it and that gives him safety. But I think you took it to another level where if you don't give that to yourself, if you don't do that work for yourself, I don't know if you're ever going to feel safe. I don't know if I'll ever feel worthy. You know, we can do things as a couple to help that 100%. But if you don't feel that already within yourself, then you're going to be fucked. Yeah. Yeah. And it's designed. So the attraction, I think, the soul attraction is designed for evolution. So I'm attracted to you. I'm actually going to hire you to be my perfect nightmare. You're going to fail me so that I can grow and evolve. And maybe we're going to do it together and maybe not. But you work at least conscious around it because the the misinformation we're handed up until now, because we're all we're changing the narrative through conversations like this, is that you don't complete me. You don't you aren't going to keep nor can you. But I'm going to be so seduced by the idea that you can't like I'm going to I'm going to like take the drug. I'm going to take the drug. I'm going to get addicted to this drug. And then I'm going to have to go through withdrawals on my own and get sober on my own from this love drug. And then come back 10 times healthier and go, oh, now I can love you from a more complete place. Thank you for disappointing me. Thank you for not being that exact thing that I thought you would, could, should be. I think it's kind of beautiful. It is if you allow yourself to understand that there needs to be inner work instead of just instead of having the narrative of, oh, somebody has wronged me and putting and blame, blame, blame. Yeah, we're so quick to just blame our partner. Well, maybe we just have to do a little work. And it's hard, right? It's hard to take a look at yourself. Also, I think expectations play a very big role in my journey anyway, because, you know, it's easy to place expectations on your partner subconsciously. Right. Like I expect this and I expect and you're and then you're you're let down. Right. And even expect like I expect her to heal this part of me or whatever. That's where all that that that self work comes in is and understanding that expectations you're going to be let down. Right. You're constantly going to be let down if I have expectations. You know, it's meeting somebody where they're at that day, which could be different from yesterday. And for me, this is new, but like that baseline feeling safe. So I don't have to walk on eggshells if I say the wrong thing or we fight or whatever. Like that's fine. You know, I'm not going anywhere. Right. But what's beautiful is what you just said is about back backing up to like blame, blaming other people is that the misinformation has been you did this to me. Right. And what I hear you saying is, no, you revealed this to me. You revealed where I need to still heal the part of me that came to you to trigger, to trigger my safety issues, to trigger my unworthiness issues. That why we come together to trigger the wound so that we can get to work to healing the wound Yeah Well I mean it and your partner is going to really let you in on all of your faults You know, like it really is like a microscope to like, oh, I'm going to not good at this. Oh, yeah, I'm going to hear about it. You know, and I think that compounds and and it's learning also, you know, not to take things personally. That's not who I am. That's something that's not all of me. That's, like, something that I'm not good at, and I can work on that, but I'm not taking that personal. That's not an attack on who I am as a human, you know, that I leave my laundry out or whatever. Well, maybe it is. Okay. Well, you know, I mean. I don't agree. Right. Okay. Just like you. Yeah, yeah. Odie will clean up everybody's dish from dinner, which is a beautiful thing, except for her own. I have a thing. She just doesn't, like, she'll leave her food out, her glass. We're off track. We're off track. I think that that's what it is. I expect you to. Okay. I think I'm going to go back to my meal. And so I don't, I'm not ready to discard. I'm going to clean everybody else's up and then I'm going to think about it. And then I'm going to say, okay, I guess I'm done. And then I'll get sidetracked and go do something else. See, I understand that. I totally understand. Oh, see? But if one has never returned for the second portion of dinner, never returned. No, that's not true. But isn't it, like, adorable that you know that about her? I bet. Yeah, right. You know she'll never return to her plate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She'll never return to her plate. Like, good to know. If you want so that I'll never put my clothes all the way in the hamper, then you'll forgive me as well. I forgive you. If you die. Okay. today. First of all, are we recording? Second of all. I've seen a few movies that started like this. And I coached you on them. I promise you, if you did die today and your clothes were everywhere, I would grab those clothes and I would smell them and I would miss those fucking clothes on the floor. You would miss that day. I will remind you. It would be a close-up on that dirty dish. Correct. And then a single tear. Single tear. Okay, that was beautiful. Now I'm going to really mess this up how we start the podcast. So as you know, this is the anti small talk podcast, and we like to circle around all sorts of ideas and people and practices to help remedy the loneliness epidemic and really the separation epidemic that we're in. And we believe that stories are the medicine and connection is the revolution. So I want to say welcome to the both of you. You're like my heart and soul, and I'm overwhelmed with joy to have you on the podcast. And instead of saying, how are you or what's going on, because I feel like how are you is too light of a question, I want to ask you both, what is lighting you up right now or what's breaking your heart open right now? Marriage. So we have a friend who's not doing so well and with his health and of course that starts to highlight everything, right? When you know someone and they're very close to you and you start to think about bigger things and perspective comes into play. And I what's lighting me up right now is my little unit that we have that I feel so proud of. And my the simple things, an email that we got from Charlie's teachers saying how well she's doing, which hasn't always been the case. Andy at the dentist just being a rock star the little simple things that you can just take for granted or brush through I'm hyper focused on currently because life is so fragile and I understand that it could all go away speaking of small talk that I write in is Dave crying? I didn't think my clarity You know, I think for me, what's breaking my heart open is our daughter, Charlie. And, you know, just trying to understand she's a little neurodiverse and, you know, on the spectrum and ADHD. And trying to constantly figure out the best way to support her and help her and build her up and have fun with her and all of it. It just eats me up all day, you know. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a that's a journey that, you know, I wasn't obviously prepared for. but what a beautiful thing to get to know her brain because we've done so much work and we've talked to you about this um you know on trying to figure out what the right thing is for her and how to best help her first you know and and we got there you know and every little piece of the puzzle that we're figuring out is just you start to see her and how she's you know how she processes and it's so different than the way we process in some ways. In some ways, it's very similar. We do, I see it. I'm like, oh, she's got that from me. But yeah, it's a wild, wild journey. And I always say that she is my greatest teacher. I sat with someone who channels, let's just say that, channels a bunch of different other entities. and we this was years ago and somebody asked about the rise with children with autism and what that was about and this person or these entities said they are here to help us evolve and to not treat everyone the same and they're here to teach us how to be more present and in the moment and that we're we're not supposed to all learn the same way and learn the same curriculum let's say, of life. Yeah. That they're here to, they're shaking things up and breaking us out of a consciousness mindset that we are evolving out of. So I love that you both said in different ways about being inspired just to be more present. And isn't that the greatest gift? I remember when I had Tennessee and I thought, oh, and you know, you're like holding a baby or nursing baby or can't get up and do whatever you want. And I said, oh my God, what a gift this is. I've never been, I've never been more present than I have to be with a newborn. Which, which freaked me out at first, you know, that was one of those things that I just wasn't prepared for. I mean, the amount of quieting my brain in order to really focus on this being that I was solely responsible for, and then seeing her grow, and then seeing that she was different. That was something that I wasn't prepared for either. And then forgiving myself for not knowing because you only know what you know. And now I have so much more information. And now I'm just starting to feel like empowered because of all of the information and the roads that we've been down. And she's doing great. And I'm just very proud of us, but I'm mostly proud of her. Isn't it crazy? and I can get like violent about, about this idea that you just said it. And I'm remembering that when I was a new mom, I thought I was supposed to know everything out of the gate. And where does that come from? That we like, that we're supposed to know everything. And we've never done it before. And I've been keeping this. And I share this with you guys. I've been keeping this thought with me that I learned from somebody else, another guest on the podcast, which was, you know, I'm still learning every step of the way, even though I have a 19 year old and a 16 year old. That's crazy. I've never been the mother of a 19 year old and a 16 year old before now. I've never done this. So I've got a daughter in college. I've never done this before. This is my first time. This is my first time. But some people would think, well, I know things because, but I'm still new at everything that I'm doing at every stage. I'm trying to have this exact same conversation with Charlie, you know, because she takes it really hard when she messes up and she tries on it. I'm like, you're trying it for the first time. There's no substitute for experience. You're not going to, you know, you can't intellectualize this and this. You have to go through it. You have to feel it. You have to experience it. That's why nobody should be able to vote on anything if they haven't experienced it. If you haven't gone through it, you don't get a vote. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. We did Dr. Eamon's podcast and he said something that I took away. You either win or you learn. And I love that. So every day I'm like, oh, that didn't work out, but I learned something from it. So great. So I won. I'm taking that one with me. You know, we're more connected than ever via screen. but we're still disconnected. Where do you think, or what do you think, this loneliness epidemic is continuing from? Or like, why do you think it exists right now? When, look how connected we are. We get connected with you guys all the time. Comparison, but I think you just said it. We're more connected than ever to the world. But what's happening is then we're disconnected with the people that are right in front of us because most of us are getting all this news and information or social media or whatever from everybody else so like the person who's sitting across the dinner table from you when you're like this that feels very disconnected and i think that's happening you know even with my buddies or whatever or us with the kids like we try not to be on our phones with the kids because it's so and our whole life revolves around this freaking thing now. It's wild. You can't, you know, I wish I could be a dinosaur. Bill Murray, be like, I don't have a phone, you know, because I think it would be much better off. But it was simpler and you were able to connect with the people around you. But now, again, we're connected. We're seeing what's happening in China. But, you know, our neighbor, we have no idea what's happening. We know more about that. And I think there's a feeling of loneliness. I also think, and if you look at teenagers now, you can hide behind your phone on everything. You can be a bully behind your phone. And so nobody's ever going to see your face. You're not ever going to really experience that shame because you're just in your basement or whatever the heck these trolls are doing and where they're trolling from. You know, kids now are asking their dates to the prom over a text message. This fee that feels so disconnected. It's like we've got to get back to a dinner party where you put your phones away And you can talk about your differences and you can understand each other. And it doesn't have to be so divided because you are people. And if you're in front of somebody, there's more of a chance that you're going to take something away than you that you hadn't thought of. Versus feeling that loneliness of being in your house. Not comparison also plays a huge part in this. And, you know, I think it just we keep kind of diving into that social media loneliness hole. And it's and it's hard when you don't when you're not face to face with somebody. That's. Yeah. Well, do you do you guys think I think it's got a shelf life? I really do. I think the kids that are coming up that aren't drinking. Right. Like down. Like down. But I think there's got to be. I hope. Right. There's got to be the kids coming along. I'll be like, this is it. This is it. We are this, this, this, this. I had Strummer on the podcast, and I learned a lot from him in that episode. Oh, I've got to watch that. Yeah, it's great. He said, this is my takeaway, so I'm paraphrasing what I heard, and that is, yeah, we do text a lot, but that texting transfers. It's just one of our languages. It transfers to when we're in person. so they do a lot of intimate texting but then when they're face-to-face that exists too it's not a substitute so it's not like we only text intimate stuff and then we get around each other and we don't know how to behave no that's like and i've observed it his friends guys and girls they say i love you they talk they facetime they interact like they don't just communicate via text which is our, I'll put myself in your generation, even though I'm a little bit older than you guys. We're so worried about that generation only because it's not what we grew up with. We grew up with more like asking people out or, you know, if we made a comment and somebody didn't like it, we saw the look on their face. Yes. So it's one of their languages. Well, that's great. And there's now a whole trend about getting off of social media. I'm starting to see that in my opinion. I think that eventually will. Or where people are, there's a whole group of kids that, you know, going back to flip phones. I'm like, oh, yeah. Well, I also think, you know, and we have no idea what's coming, but with AI, that you're really not going to be able to tell what's real and what's not on social media. Like at all. At all. At all. I think you can't. I can already tell. And it's a vibe. There's an energy behind it. You can feel somebody. It's either Odie's voice or it's AI or it's Dre or it's like I can absolutely smell it, feel it, taste it when it's AI. I think so, too. And I think that's why our jobs could be safer now because you can feel that. Well, I think our jobs for sure. But you can feel it now. but this is just starting, right? Meaning what I'm saying is like if you're spending, let's say, 10 minutes scrolling and eight of those minutes, you have no idea if that's like real news or a real picture or an AI model. They're starting to use AI models now, not actors, but models for a necklace or something. Like you just have no idea. Like why am I going to waste my time? I don't even know if this is real. Like should I believe this? Bring us back to the positive. You're always. Oh, yeah. Oh, OK. No, I was going to say something about the positive. Wait, what was it? Oh, and that is the word integration, which is I think what I'm starting to feel is if I'm on Instagram, I get so inspired and all these quotes and all these people and what they're doing. And then I catch myself and I go, am I integrating any of this? Am I really, is this really changing? Can I, when I sit across the table at dinner, is, am I embodying this, whatever it is I'm taking in as part of me? And the answer is usually no, I'm not. I'm, I'm, it's just like, I'm just skimming the surface. And I think that's what we're all starting to sense. It's like, wait, where is this? how is this really helping me unless I'm integrating it? Yeah, that's great. So that's the word that I'm is like a big word for me. And we talk about it on the on the podcast. And how do you integrate? So what are you taking in and how are you translating it or transmuting it back out into the world? I love Instagram. I love it. I love it. I love I've connected with so many people. That's how this podcast gets shared and people reach out to me. I love it. And I'm aware when it's becoming like my computer is way too full and I have to like either download or clear it and do a detox. I have felt alone many times. I've experienced the loneliness epidemic. It's why circling is my life, became part of my life. I talk about it all the time. I still lead circles because I feel so deeply held, seen, safe, secure. I learn and on and on. But I still go back to I can feel alone or lonely. And so I want to ask the two of you, when did you feel recently or in the past the most alone? Let me think about this, because there have been a few many times. One of the times that I felt the most alone was during my infertility journey. And it wasn't that I didn't have people checking in and, you know, reaching out or that I didn't have Dave's support because I did. I had all of those things, but there was a loneliness that is so singular that you just cannot share that experience with anyone else. And it felt like I was failing myself. I just would go down these spirals, and then I'd be able to pull myself out and kind of just do the daily grind. But I felt so deeply alone. And just I know you've shared about this. So I just want to bring our audience into the story that you you went you had quite a journey with getting pregnant the second time with Andy. Yeah, I did. I did. And it was unexpected because Charlie, you know, was I mean, she wasn't a surprise. we were trying, but it happened rather quickly, right? Probably within the year. And with Andy, it was just, you know, it's that type of thing when you have an expectation and when it doesn't get met, then there's, and because I can be a perfectionist, there's that pressure that I put on myself and then I'm very determined and I'm competitive. And so it became this thing where I couldn't wrap my head around what was happening, why it was happening. And obviously there's the lesson there, right? Because she came in her own timing and perfect timing. and so releasing all of that really was an experience for me when she finally came but yeah we we did IVF failed like we didn't even get one good embryo it was just IUIs miscarriages we went through a real and this was after Dave and I moved to Texas and we were rebuilding our marriage. And then it just felt like this other hurdle that was like, why? What's going on here? What are we missing? And then, you know, of course, she came in her own time and she's the most wonderful, beautiful thing. But yeah, we had there were a couple of years there where it was can I be so bold as to say or observe was that part of this whole journey to working through your own enoughness and worthiness and perfectionism and all of that was that yeah I think it long cycle because it's I think it certainly helped I you know I still have that like oh that perfectionist in me but it has as i get older and as you know we live we experience life a little bit more i really um i'm shedding that a little bit i can't tell you how happy i am to move into the year of the horse yes you know what's crazy we had a full snake skin in a planter about, what was it, two weeks ago? Full. Full shit. Right before the end of the year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought, well, if that isn't a sign, we're wrapping up this. We live in Texas. A lot of snakes here. Wasn't ready for that. What a gift. What a little gift. And it just felt so symbolic to me, specifically because I feel like this nine-year cycle that's coming to an end right now. These past nine years have been, have taught me the biggest lessons and have put me through the grind. And, you know, just I've learned the most these past nine years. Isn't that beautiful? Yeah. What about you, Dave? Well, you know, it's funny. I was just thinking about the lonely or alone. And to Odie's point, I had so much support and people around me. And it wasn't about me, but, you know, my best friend on the planet committed suicide. And she was, you know, 20 years. She was my day-to-day buddy that, you know, we would sort of talk every day. Lived in Texas while we were here. So we saw him all the time. daughter, wife, and trying to navigate that as a man, which it never affected me before, or never had anybody very close to me. And then all of a sudden, one of the closest to you, that was a pretty lonely ride, just because no one really understands, although you understand and everybody had, you know, unfortunately, others have best friends that have done the same thing, or spouses or whatever, but it felt very, it was a tough ride. Yeah, yeah, it's the most. And you can have support and feel lonely at the same time. I got a very big job three days after he went, after I had a nice talking to him. After he stung you. Yeah, fucking asshole. So, you know, I had one breakdown moment. It was probably three or four days after I'm just sobbing on my balcony. I'm just like, why? You know, like, give me a sign. Like, what? Like, and I've never been stung before. But a fucking wasp goes right at her. As soon as I said, show me a sign. I was like, oh, he's not going to show me a fucking rainbow. Or a flower. Like a flower. Like a cloud. Like he stung me. It hurt. He was like, bro. Bro. Well, the funny thing is, and I found videos, because we're going through, you know, put together a folder, like the next morning after I was stung. I shit you not, right, Odie? And Odie had a taser, okay, and it sat out. My mom gave it to me. And I got real curious one day. and I was like yo like tase me I was like I'd love to first of all I gave that to her as a Valentine's Day gift one year I was like you get to tase me well let's just give context to this my mother my very Cuban mother when we moved to New York she's like IOTI IOTI I don't know I don't know here's a taser you just keep that with you I'm like alright I'm just airing at this thing every day and I'm like yo what does it feel like you such a dude anyway yeah so he was over our apartment in New York and I tased him and he goes it feels like a hundred wasps just stung me. And I started bawling again. Because the night before I got stung by a wasp, never been stung and then all of a sudden I see, you know, hear this in this video that we're playing. Wow. Yeah. If that's not like evidence of signs are real. I don't know what is. There's a lot more out there than we see. That's all I know. Oh, yeah. I'm going to sit with that forever and always. I want you to just share a little bit about your community because what I do know about the two of you is you really feed into and have a very strong community of friends, of family, people you work with. Can you just share like a little bit about that, about the value of community? Em and I were just talking about like that the village is really a state of mind. And I don't know, I just want you guys to share a little bit about your community because it's, it's so beautiful. The way that I was raised in a big, with a big Cuban family and like an open door policy. And, you know, my mom was always cooking, my grandmother, my aunt would come in with a dish and we would all just be together and we'd have these fun parties. And it was just, I just was raised with beautiful laughter and a joyous household. And it was felt very boisterous and wonderful. And I knew at a very young age that that was something that I valued so much and that that would get me by. If I could build a compound and all of my friends lived on it, I would, and I would love it. Yes. I want to be on your compound. Yes. That's what we talk about, too, building the commune, getting back to the village, sharing resources, living communally. We're not supposed to do it on our own. No, we're not supposed to do it on our own. We thrive. with other people around. But it's just us for like, hey, what's up, dude? Yeah. Seriously. I agree. I agree. And going back to that thing that your partner just can't give you everything that you need, nor should they. You have to have your people to unload on. You can't expect your partner to have all of that. And that's where community comes into play. And I would be a very, very, very lonely person without my people. And I know that. I value my friendships so much. I actually take so much pride in being a great friend. I think that that's one of my strengths. I have many weaknesses. We can list them if we want. But one of my strengths is being a great friend. And it's because I've had so many great examples. when we moved to Texas well when we left Los Angeles our group kind of dispersed a little bit and so my sisters my very very best friends we all kind of live in different places but we have this wonderful app called Marco Polo do you know about it yes I do and so we feel very very connected through this walkie talkie video app but when we moved to Texas we were so blessed with a community here and about four or five, well, like two or three couple friends that we knew very well from Los Angeles also moved here. Some of our best friends lived 10 minutes away from us. Absolutely. I mean, we took a leap. So we were the first one here. Yeah, we did. And we were very fortunate. There's no accidents, but we had, there was quite a few folks from LA that decided to move out here. Some we knew well, some we didn't know it all and you know i will say in in texas um the people are great down here they're really really good people and it's it's it's much different from the experience not better or worse but just different from the experience we had in la in our 20s and 30s and you know now we're well now we live in a retirement community we actually do and we actually we first moved i like to tell this story because it really just paints the whole picture of what we were dealing with. When we moved into our house, it's a very suburban area, very new for me because we were right in the middle of Hollywood with all the things. And somebody rang our doorbell and I was like, what is that? Go do that. Why? I go, oh my God, it's our neighbor. I think it's our neighbor. He's like, I think we're supposed to answer the door. I'm like, oh God. And it was our neighbor holding a pie and introducing herself like you see in the movies. And when I tell you now, I have conversations with my neighbors. I just chat. I do the wave. That's another community that I'm really proud of. And we've had these ice storms and these extreme temperatures in Texas. Everybody's outside helping each other. And that's new for me. Even growing up, I mean, not my Cuban family, of course, would help each other, but like just neighbors. It just feels like a different thing. So, yeah, back to your question, community is everything. It's knowing that if, you know, the proverbial shit hits the fan, that you can count on your neighbor. And that's what I noticed when the ice storm in 2021, when we lost power for a week. You know, everybody was out helping each other and with the kids and with the neighbors and Miss Betty's, you know, 80 next door. We, you know, we're helping her out. We don't know her age, so let's just. Sorry, Miss Betty. But, I mean, she's probably 65. That's better. But, you know, it did feel like in L.A., if we were on a main street and our power was out for a week, you know, we're going to get looted. You know, there's going to be some real. We had some wonderful neighbors as well. that we actually still keep in touch with. But it does feel different in our, like, retirement community. We've got little kids. You know, it's a great place to, like, raise little kids. And who knows where, you know, the next chapter is. I think we might have another chapter in New York. I'm just saying. Yeah. Why not? I like this thing. It takes a village. It takes a circle. It takes a whole circle of people to raise a child, keep your family thriving. All of the above. But this has been so beautiful. I want to invite Emily and Tracy back in here. Emily usually has like a burning desire question that she asks our guests. And then I want to – Well, don't put her on the spot. What if she's like, no, actually – Watch. Just watch. Don't be forwarded. How many notes do you have, Emily? Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm getting married in a few months or nine months. So, I mean, I feel like I do have a million questions. And thank you guys for sharing. So honestly, thank you. But I I'll start with this. I was at a bachelorette party a few years ago. And we were like, no, I wish I've never been. I've never been. I'm going to come visit with Dre. We were on the beach and like just kind of naturally and organically a circle formed. And a lot of the women I was with were a little older than me and they were married. And I was like texting with Dre at the time and she said, ask them, ask everybody what they love about being married. And so I threw that question out and I was kind of shocked at the responses. So I'd love for you guys to weigh in. What's your favorite thing about being married? I'll let you start. Of course you will. Well, I feel very lucky because I did end up marrying my best friend. so I feel like I have a buddy that I get to go through life alongside and I genuinely feel that she has opened my eyes to the work that I have to do myself whether advertly or inadvertently pointed out but I truly enjoy the camaraderie the you know it's hard and we get on each other's you know, nerve quite a bit. You think it's going to be easy. Yeah. I'll say that because it's not. But, you know, when we, our thing is we, at the end of the night, if we can, we sit on our balcony and we sort of break it down, whether it's a glass of wine or whatever, you know, it's not legal here. So, but we, but we, we connect and we talk and we communicate. And that's my favorite part. Yeah. I was going to say the same thing. I think it's very, very, very important to marry someone that you really like, someone that you trust fully with your shares, because you have to share your space with someone. And that's already tough enough. You know, so if you and like I do feel comfortable to share what's in my heart and know that there isn't going to be judgment, there might be a pause to kind of absorb what I'm saying. But for you to have a soft landing, I think it's really, really it's one of the things I love about having a partner and sharing a life with somebody. Beautiful. Thank you. And then one other thing, I saw, maybe it was a while back, I don't know if you guys still do it, but for a while on Instagram, you did this kind of couples therapy session where you aired some happening grievances. Yeah, roasting him. Yeah, so I'm just curious, like, what prompted that, and what was your experience in sharing that type of stuff? Uh, well, I think Dave and I have always had this, like, I mean, from the beginning of the story we shared about how we met, you know, we've kind of always roasted each other. And it's, it's our thing. I mean, it's where we feel so comfortable, because I know that he can take it, he knows that I can take it. And it was one of those things one day where I had enough. Like it was like one last time there was pee on the toilet seat. And I'm like, this motherfucker. Like what? And so I grabbed my phone. I'm like, I'm going to call you out right now. And I did. And we kind of just kept doing it because it felt like, first of all, a nice little release, you know, that I can like unload. and other people were relating to it, which made me feel less alone. And I knew that other, you know, partners were sharing the same feelings. And then it became kind of a thing that we enjoyed doing together, so much so that we sold a TV show based off of these couples therapy videos. Actually, we talked to Dre about it for, I mean, we were like this close. Yeah, we were this close to selling it to a network. We had a studio behind it. And then it didn't it never went further than that. But we still do toy around with and I think we will. And again, timing is everything. But with having another version of something like that, because we I think we have now, especially going through everything that we've gone through in our relationship, so much more richness. and I'll still roast you forever and always because you deserve it. But there's also something else I think that we can, you know, share. And I think that we're such open people that we're. Well, what I think is attractive nowadays, kind of we were talking about before is just authenticity. And, you know, that is a gift that I think Odette and I have is we're just going to be very real, whether, you know, paints us in a certain picture or this or that. But that was fun because that was just us. We had no idea what the other was going to say. So she says, lay down. Excuse me. What? What are we doing here? And so there's a certain amount of trust. And truthfully, it was fun. And having, you know, friends or people call and be like, yo, she does this too? Like, oh, my, you know, same thing. So, you know, I think there's certainly a future in that for us of Odie and I and sort of leaning into that authenticity and, you know, acting is obviously our lead job. But, you know, there's certainly space for us to do something out there. Explore another. Well, it's so valued. And you guys, you're not ahead of the curve. You are the curve. And it's also Age of Aquarius where this is the age of transparency. And we're seeing it now. I mean, it's also social media where we can see everything that's happening in real time, but everything is being revealed. So there is no more hiding or pretending or I'm this way with this person, but I'm this way with that person. It's like, nope, everything is being seen and revealed all at once. It's 1111 here. I just wanted to point that out. I want to ask you these ripple effect questions there and then we're done. And these ripple effect questions are just fun and kind of light and off the cuff. And we share them so that as a way for our listeners to bring these kind of questions to their dinner table, to work, to friends, to help breed connection. So you can both answer or one of you answer whatever you want to do. If I meet you a year from now, what will you be celebrating? community yes and okay if I gave you a million dollars right now to invest in someone or something and you have to give it away who would you give it to or where would you give it it could be a cause it could be a person it could be you could split it up sky's the limit million dollars you have to give it away I would give it to the New York Mets I think we're really I don't know how much it's going to do, but we need some help. Okay, you're up. I would put it all into the new school that is being built for Charlie. Yes. I was going to say that, too. Yeah, you were going to say that. I knew that. I felt it. Okay. Do you have a, and this is only because I do. This is literally where I'm at. Do you have a favorite song right now or a poem or a piece of writing that is your anthem for right now? The first thing that comes to mind is that rendition of this beautiful man is singing a rendition of Colors of the Wind, the Pocahontas song. And I just love the meaning behind it. Like we've got to all remember we are all one. Yes. I mean, all I know is I know nothing. Socrates. All I know is to be a student. But that's not a song. No, or an anthem or a poem or a poem. Piece of writing. Piece of writing, yeah. I just try to be a student. Fine, yeah. Love it. Lots to learn out there. Say it again. So it's Socrates, all I know is I know nothing. All I know is I know nothing. Yes, and beautiful. Love that. Beautiful. Well, you two, thank you for being here. Oh, what a treat. Freya, we're so proud of you. We're so proud. You're just an angel in our life. You are an absolute sent from God angel to us. You have quite literally saved me in so many ways. I'm so grateful for you. I need you always. I love you. We love you. Thanks for being such a good actor and coach because you picked up the freaking phone when I said, I know you're not doing this, but I need you. I'll be telling you later today. Yeah. Yeah. I happily, joyfully am here for you. And thank you for seeing me and supporting me and loving me. And really, thank you for sharing so much of your story and for being the ripple effect and for being the remedy for so many people through your storytelling and all your many talents and for sharing so much here on this podcast. we love you we have more to share and I really want to say thank you for being the first couple that I've had on the podcast and we have to stay married and I have to give Emily the credit because we love to give credit where credit's due and Emily, it was Emily's idea and I was like oh my god that's brilliant that was genius I was going to pitch myself but I didn't want to And then I just slowly erupted. Well, thank you. This is really great. And best of luck, guys. Thank you. Love you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you. Love you. Love you. Because we didn't get to everything in this episode, we decided to add a part two. So, look forward to this conversation continuing with Dave and Odette Annable. Okay, it's my favorite part still processing. with Dre and Em, can't stop, won't stop. So you know how you were saying that you connected with them on the soul level, right? And I experienced that for the first time really in circles, really understanding what you mean by that. But I feel like I would have no idea what that was if I have never circled. So what does that really mean for you? And then, and also like, how do people, if somebody is like, yeah, I mean, I want to connect on the soul level, in real life and in the real world. But you said you do that with everyone. It happens for you a lot. Like, how? Well, it's because I've sat in circles for so long that I've developed this muscle of being allergic to small talk. And when I connect with someone, I am connecting with them on the soul level. So in a circle, because one person shares at a time, and we're not doing dialogue or crosstalk. We're not responding. We're just listening and holding space. And we're usually sharing something, sharing a story, sharing where we're at. So you tend to go deeper without interruption. You tend to share more thoroughly of yourself in a circle. I'm saying this to you, you know what I'm talking about, but you're asking me to articulate it. And that is a different way of being with yourself and with others because I'm not in my ego and I'm not going, oh, yeah, me too. Oh, I did the same thing. Oh, that's so wild. Oh, you went through that. I'm actually just listening. So I tend to be in that presence with other people when I talk and when I listen and I do circle work. And then when I do that, when I'm one on one with people, I guess is my answer. Yeah, that is my answer. Next. Okay. Okay. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so their story of how they met. I need to collect these reminders. My takeaway from that is like you just you cannot miss what's meant for you. Right? You cannot miss what's meant for you. So, and, you know, you had said you had made a comment like, oh, my gosh, there's 47,000 things I want to say about this. And you said that, yes, how they were circling around each other and timing and this connection with their siblings or somebody wanting to meet famous people, right? So I just wanted to know what else was happening for you in that story. Is there something else within the 47,000 that you want to give us? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. The one that was so beautiful was hearing their inner monologues of how nervous they were or how into the other person they were, but assume the other person wasn't into them. And here they were both feeling the same way. And it just made me think of the mirror effect, that they were both attracted to one another and they both felt, these are my words, not theirs, but what I saw or felt when they were telling the story was the beauty of their insecurities that they were so willing to share with us. I think that that's what I was hearing in in that story. And that they I said it in the in the in the pod already. But she showed him who she was. And he showed her who he was in their first interaction when they when they exchanged words the second time when they really kind of came together. And she's like, do you want my number? And he was like, oh, yeah. It was so sweet. It's so adorable. So adorable. What's the saying when someone shows you who they are, believe them? Believe them. And that's who they are. And I happened to know them intimately, but I guess that was the other fun experience I was having. And hearing that story was hearing it, knowing them both on the soul level and having never heard that story. And like, yes, that's who they are. Adorably, that's who they are or who I know them to be. Yeah. Well, I remember what he's saying, too. She felt safe right away. So that's a big thing, too. For whatever reason, she felt safe enough to be exactly who she was. Maybe also because she said she wasn't looking. You know, she wasn't looking, so she wasn't trying to get him to like her necessarily. She was like, could he handle the heat, right, testing the waters? I felt that way with Chris, too. Like, I really wasn't looking either. So I was very uninhibited because I had no agenda. Right. It freed me up. Yeah. Or this is the other thing, circling back to circling, is that in the circle, you tend to have your mask off because there's no agenda. so you tend to share more from the heart or more of who you your essence who you really are because the personality is out the window because you're not trying to get something or manipulate someone or where you might be worried like what do people think of me like sure but after a while your nervous system starts to relax because you're not getting that ego feedback right away of validation or what's the opposite of validation? Judgment. You're just sitting with yourself and you're going, oh, that's my, oh, that's all my garbage. That's my judgment. That's my ego. That's my inner critic. Nobody else is doing anything. Anyway, so I just had to share that. Right. Sorry. And then isn't this fascinating? She felt safe with him when they first met and safety is his issue that comes up in their marriage. Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about when they said that they've met many different versions of each other throughout the years. And that made me think of so many things. I thought of the Esther Perel quote where she said, like, most people are going to have two or three marriages or committed relationships in their adult life. Some of us will have them with the same person. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that good? And then I went to a movie once. I went to a screening. I forget the name of the movie exactly. But basically, Olivia Colman and Jesse Buckley played the same woman 20 years apart. Jesse, the role was 20 and Olivia was the role at 40. And afterwards, there was a talkback, and Olivia Colman was there, and somebody asked her, what did she work on with Jessie prior to the filming? Like, what did they agree upon? What did they talk about since they were playing the same woman? And she blew my mind, Olivia. She said, oh, nothing. Nothing We actually we didn discuss anything We didn talk at all because who you are at 40 is completely different from who you are at 20 What is your take on that Like, do you, do you agree or disagree with that idea? I think it's at the core of your essence, you are the same and that you go through different versions of yourself. So I do know my 20-year-old self. I know who she was, where she was at. I know she was, wait, that would make me 40. Wait, I'm 55. So my 35-year-old self, it was 20 years. I do know that she was depressed, scared, afraid, trying too hard, lost. And at the core essence, I'm the same person. And that is a circler, a woman, an artist, a creator, a spiritual being, curiosity. But I was just at a different stage of my learning. And maybe perhaps you explore all these different parts, like you become a mother, I became a mother or a wife. Those are different parts of the same core person. But the, you know, the, I think the woman who I came here to be is still, still the same essence. Okay. Different versions of the same essence. Yes. Yeah. So we're going through parts of different times where, and I'm, I'm relating to that into what, into the conversation we just had with Odette and Dave. Aren't they amazing, by the way. My God, so amazing. My cheeks hurt while it was happening. But yes, so back to what they said about the ebbs and the flows and the ups and the downs that I can, listening to their story, they were going through different parts at different times. Like, becoming a mother is different than becoming a dad. They're different journeys. And yet, you're going through it at the same time, but you're going through different journeys. That was my takeaway from what they said. I really understood that hearing them talk about it. I only know what it's like to become a mom. I watched the father of my kids become a dad, but I really don't know what that was like for him. And I talked to a lot of guys and it's a different trip. So I loved hearing Dave's exploration of that. Mm hmm. When you said the key to a healthy relationship, your understanding was based on like there's an old paradigm that we were supposed to merge and fuse and then become one. But then you're supposed to individuate and go through peaks and valleys, some together, some separately. I thought it was the other way around and maybe I don't understand it still but I thought that we're supposed to individuate before we merge my therapist was talking about when you fall in love so when you fall in love I've watched you and Chris do it you order food together and you finish each other's sentences you're just kind of this one entity that when you're together you act as one And that's what you're supposed to do is have this mushy oxytocin overflowing. It's so annoying. Overflowing. I mean, I've done it too. Overflowing overwhelm of like, they're just, we like, they can't, they can do no wrong. That's supposed to happen to get you to merge. You fall, literally, you fall in love, like falling over, you fall in love. and then you individuate and then you integrate or then you become interdependent. Rather, you're supposed to become independent in order to be interdependent so that you can keep going side by side together. I'm talking with my hands. I have my two hands up now and go through your own peaks and valleys side by side, not on the same rocking roller coaster. Hmm. It's so passionate. Get off my roller coaster. I'm on my roller coaster. You're on your roller coaster. I see. Okay. Okay. Yeah. When I heard Odette say that she had to learn that when it got hard, you don't just take off and check out. Like she had to learn how to stay in the room. And I'm taking that with me, too. That, yeah, staying in the room is the hard work, and it sounds like they did it. But what I also, a lot of people are talking about, it's very trendy right now. I don't know about your algorithm, but it's coming up on my algorithm about living separately, whether it's separate bedrooms or, you know, being married but living separately, but kind of keeping that independence but being interdependent is kind of hot right now. as rather than you live together, you sleep together, you do everything together, everything's together together. And that old paradigm, as we know, 50 over 50 percent of married people end up in divorce is maybe there's a new there's a new way which we like to talk about. I love it. I love new ways burning down the system and rebuilding, reimagining. But that's no, that's not in my algorithm. So that's separate bedrooms, even separate houses. People are are doing marriages separate houses it's probably my algorithm because a lot of it is about second marriages and about um staying staying separate but being a couple because you have you have full lives or you have your routine but you want to be with this person but you don't necessarily need to merge everything in order to be together right non-traditional yeah something about it that was just so healing. Of course, you know, their honesty about the peaks and valleys that, you know, we're sold happily ever after, right? Like the credits roll after they fall in love. That's the trope. And I was thinking, I was like, what should it, it's not happily ever after. It's what, it's what ever after. And they lived presently ever after. Yeah. Right. Seriously. Just be present. Or bravely ever after. Or good luck ever after. Luckily ever after. Luckily ever after. But happily, but that's interesting. They live happily ever after as if being happy is the goal. And what is the goal? Right. Growth. Yes, yes, yes. Evolutionarily ever after. But I think that feeds into this idea of if it gets hard, oh, it's not supposed to be this hard. Why do we think it's not supposed to be hard? Because we've been sold this thing that it's supposed to be happily ever after, that these conflicts are not for our growth, that it's a that it's a red flag or something. So anyway, I just because because happiness sells products. Right. Right. Yeah, we all we all want a dose of happiness. And oh, if you buy this, you'll be happy. If you do this, you'll be happy. And then a whole system of things to purchase is created. Right. Right. Well, just hearing, you know, the expectations. Oh, and expectations was a whole other thing I wanted to ask you about, talk about. But the acceptance or awareness that valleys are a part of this adventure and experience and not to panic necessarily when one happens. But, you know, Dave said like, okay, this is where we're at right now. Okay, we can do that. The awareness and acceptance that this, I don't even want to say is normal or to be expected, but it's all part of it. It's all part of it. It's part of what you're signing up for. It's nature. It's life. Life includes cycles. Life includes death. Life includes creation and destruction, just like nature. So if it's sunny all the time, when are the seeds going to be planted and go underground and go into the dark? Like, when are you going to grow? So peaks and valleys up until now has the resonance of it's going to be hard and it's going to be great. And that's something you should worry about when really, let's use the roller coaster metaphor, how much fun are roller coasters? Well, I hate roller coasters. Okay, let's use another analogy, another metaphor. Do you like roller coasters? That's what they're designed for. They're designed to be thrilling and a little scary, and then they're over. Anytime you work through something, I worked through something this morning. I was trying to figure out something on my computer and I kind of panicked because it wasn't coming to me easily. And I walked away from the computer. I came back and I figured it out. And I was like, oh, that felt so good. The struggle didn't feel good. The figuring it out, coming back, getting through it felt good. So, yeah, peaks and valleys. Yeah. working through something it's either what did odie say that i love so much it's either a joy or it's a lesson oh no no no this was my wand drop it was close i was close i was close you were close no no it was you either win or you learn that's my wand drop i'm snapping my fingers yeah you either win or you learn yeah so i want i did both this morning with my computer i won because I learned how to do it and I didn't give up and I didn't walk away and I didn't panic. I went, oh, okay. Your brain's like not online just yet with this in how to solve this problem. Walk away, shake it off, get something to eat, come back, boom, figured it out. Great. The key to self-esteem, I read or heard somewhere, it's not mine. The key to self-esteem is setting a goal and completing it. I think that's why we love to celebrate anniversaries. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe, maybe because people have goals. I don't know. I don't know about that with anniversaries, but I do like problem solving. I don't know. Okay. So hold on this thing about expectations. And I know I'm getting like really literal here because I couldn't agree more with this idea that, you know, expectations set you up to be let down. Expectation is the root of all heartbreak, which is a misattributed quote to Shakespeare, but moving on. But so I really, really, really believe that. And I'm getting married in a few months, right? And I think thinking about vows, and you make these vows to one another, right? You make these promises. And so I'm trying to wrap my head around the magnitude of that. And then how do you, like, if you make a promise to one another, how do you then release your expectations? Like, isn't it okay that you then have an expectation of, I guess, that promise being upheld? Isn't that what a wedding or a marriage aren't, you, isn't, I guess I'm trying to. Take a breath. Breathe. First of all, breathe. Second of all, you're saying vows aren't vows, expectations. Or no, they're promises, right? A vow is a promise, I think. And then isn't it, is it, it's a question, is it all right to have an expectation that you are entering into this union with this certain agreement of these promises being upheld? Like, is that, or is having that expectation setting one up to be let down? Or am I just being way too literal? Probably. No, I think you are being literal and it's quite accurate because marriage is also a contract. So when we sign a contract, there is an expectation that we're both agreeing to certain standards and practices of what this togetherness is going to be. It's a legally binding contract. So sure, yes, your vows and your promises, I think are more, I would invite you, Emily, to look at your vows and promises as more of something you are declaring to your partner. It's more about you. So you have expectations of your own behavior that you're bringing to the marriage. Oh, that's so good. I love it. And he's going to bring his and the two of you and the rest of us that are going to be witnessing it. This is what I love about wedding ceremonies is that we're all agreeing to hold all of this with you and together and hold the couple with these intentions. Let's say we're intending to always be kind and loving and respectful to one another. but that's what we're, you know, that's what you're intending to do. Yeah. No, I love that. You really just helped me. It's what I'm expecting of myself to focus on. What you're vowing, I'm making this vow to you. Right. And then he's making this vow to you. Nothing's guaranteed. I think that's where the word expectation comes in. It's like, well, I expect it to be my way. And that's where you probably will be disappointed. It because you expect whatever that vow is that he made to you to be a certain way all the time. And that's where we all will fail each other. Right. I will fail you in your expectation of me because it's your expectation of me. My friends fail me all the time because I have expect they're my expectations of them rather than just accepting them for who they are. I can always break up with them if I don't like who they are. Sure. You're going to get some calls. I feel it. It's going to happen. Oh, I've tried. Oh, I've tried. I've tried to break up with them. One, your phone blows up. They don't let me. They come back and they're like, what do you think you're doing, you weirdo? And I'm like, oh yeah, I forgot. I can't quit you. Okay, I've been thinking a lot about this, Dre. You know when you said when you became a mom, you thought you were supposed to know everything out of the gate? Why did you think that? Like why in the world did you think that? And then is it because at the time nobody who was a mom was saying, I don't know what the hell I'm doing? So you assumed that everyone knew what they were doing and then you needed to as well? Like, or how in the world would you know? Okay, first of all, you're yelling at me. And who I was at the time was a child of divorce, a child of an alcoholic, a child from the 70s, 80s, and 90s, a kind of out on my own. A lot of things. A lot of things created that mindset. The culture created the mindset of women have to know how to do a lot and should be really good at it. And it was like commercialism and culture was women are beautiful, women are mothers, women are smart, women are achieved, women are like so much messaging told me that I should know a lot. And I became a mom, loved becoming a mom. And I was bombarded with how much I didn't know and had to learn. And I was a good student. So I went to school. I went to class. I read books. Not literally, I'm saying figuratively. I read books. I went to parenting classes. Figuratively. I literally read books about becoming a mom, about birth, about like I went to school in how to. Yeah, yeah, I see, I see. And I still didn't know enough. And I didn't have, you are correct, I did not have that built in community of aunts and grandmothers and cousins. around me in LA. A couple of us became moms together, but we were also a little far apart from each other. So I did not have that physical village around me. I created it. I sought it out and I had to learn a lot. The other misconception is that mothering is really instinctual and that, oh, you're just going to know how to do it. Nope. Nope. I love, I love babies. Before I had a baby, I loved holding babies. I love changing baby's diapers. So I was baby centric, you know, like I, it wasn't that I didn't comfortable. You were, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like super comfortable. And I did not know how to care for a newborn baby 24 hours a day, seven days a week for months and months and months and into, you know, Tennessee's 20. That was a big learning curve. Well, I guess what I see changing is that like this type of transparency with people saying, thank God, even people, I know this, right? Thank God. It's like people coming out and saying, yeah, I don't know that they don't have an answer is so radical and healing. But hold on. Yes. when I had my first child 20 years ago, we didn't have social media. I know. Yeah. Okay. But what did I have? I had circles. And so as soon as I started circling with other mothers, I did get the information that I needed, which was, I was not the only one who felt this way. Right. That's why we're doing this podcast is because tap, tap, tap, whoever's out there listening, I want you to know you're not alone. if you thought you felt like you have to do everything on your own all at once. The answer is no, you don't. Yeah. I mean, this is I'm really going on a tangent. But I remember the last show I did, the roundtable reading, like first few days of rehearsal. The director got up to speak and she was like, listen, this play is really complicated. I'm going to have a lot of questions for you guys. And I don't know is an answer. I don't know is a full answer. And I was like, oh, what? Like I, the permission, she gave us permission to say, yeah, I don't know yet. Let me think about that. I'll come back tomorrow. Let me, you know, for some, I never felt like I could say, I don't know. I felt like I had to have an answer to every question. That's work related. But I think that carries over into so many things. Yes. I don't know how to end this portion of still processing with Dr. I'm not done. I'm not done. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Okay. Wait. This is, this is, I did, I researched, I Googled, I checked, you be teed because you talk about year of the horse, right? Yes. You're going to be so excited unless you already know this, but for anybody else that's listening, this is good news, the year of the horse. And it is good news because horse energy, ready for this, Ray? Is you're, you know this, you're like a horse person, but horse energy is direct counterweight to the loneliness epidemic. Let's go. Why aren't you jumping up and down? Let's go. This podcast just hit new stratospheres. Seriously. So horse years tend to pull people back towards gatherings, collaborations, public storytelling, live experiences, shared emotion. It's a natural antidote to isolation. I love it. Right? Yes. Yes. Okay, wait. Horse energy favors authenticity, boldness, presence, over-perfection, over-editing, which is great for us. I told you this is good news. And hiding until things are, quote, ready. Oh, my God. It's like our mission statement. Okay. Literally our mission statement. But hold on. But hold on. Be careful because there's a shadow side, and that is scattered focus, emotional impulsivity, running from discomfort instead of sitting with it, and overcommitment, stimulation without integration, and connection without regulation. Oh, shiza. I know. I knew you were going to like it. Right. Connection without regulation. Yep. And then I was taught by Chachi BT how to work with a horse here is to move fast, but land often. Prioritize life connection and build in deliberate pauses to integrate what you are creating. So I feel like this is very much where we're at. By the way, I just want to say that's what we do in circles. Shocking. but that's what we do in circles we pause to integrate yes we we we we connect and we regulate at the same time that's why it feels so friggin solid and good is you get to know yourself through the form the processes the circle i should really hold more circles i'm just i'm to commit to it right now. You're the horse. In New York, live and in person. So listen, listener. Wait, I have one more. Oh, my God. No, this is good because it happened so organically. I think it was Dave that said like with the news and social media, you know, that I know what's going on in China, but I don't know what's going on with my neighbor. And he talked about the doorbell ringing. Right. And they were like, oh, my God. Right. And it happened. It happened to me the other day and it happened to us right after the recording. Do you remember? My doorbell rang and I was like, what's that? And you were like, leave your video on because I did have a sketchy thing happen once a few months ago. But what has happened that the doorbell ringing is like the most crazy, weird thing? I don't know. I want to get to know my neighbors and I want to ring people's doorbells. And I actually used to live in a building with one of my best friends on the same floor. And Maddie lived a few floors down. And, like, again, it's the same thing, commune, whatever. But getting to know my neighbors more is a big takeaway. Yes. And I bet they're related that we've had to protect our peace because of all the harshness that we are seeing 24 hours a day, which is the news cycle, 24 hours a day. So we protect our peace. And when we're in our controlled environment and somebody knocks at the door, I think it does feel like, oops, is my peace going to be disrupted? I haven't planned for this. And so we've overcompensated, perhaps. And now we're learning to, favorite word of the year, integrate. So that we can integrate and have both. Protect our peace, both and connect with our neighbors and have boundaries and still connect. I think we're circling back to community connection, you're the horse, all of the above. Now can I talk to our listeners? Now will you let me talk to our listeners? Sure. I just want them to share the ripple effect questions, to like, listen, and subscribe, to let us know in our either DM or email us at circlethispod at gmail.com. what resonates, any questions you have, and topics that you'd like us to discuss. Do you have anything else to add? Nope, I'm good. Me too. Good talk. Good talk. This podcast is executive produced by me, Andrea Bendewald, and Emily Cratter, produced, edited, and distributed by Tracy Thomas and Good Mess Media. You can follow us on Instagram at Andrea Bendewald and Circle This Podcast. And for more information about me and what I do, you can go to theartofcircling.com. Thanks for listening.