Our Sex Life is a Disaster

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. When you run a business, you want the right tools. Enter Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, from household names to brands just getting started. With hundreds of ready-to-use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand's style. So if you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into... with Shopify on your side. Sign up for your one euro per month trial and start selling today at Shopify.nl. Go to Shopify.nl. That's Shopify.nl. Power your business with the platform trusted by millions today. I got in the water in the very early morning before the sun had risen and the water was pitch black. I started swimming and I felt the water hollowing out around me and felt like something really big was swimming below. I'm Phoebe Judge, and this is Love. A show about the surprising things that love can make us do. More than 100 episodes, available now on This Is Love. We've really been having trouble connecting sexually. It just ends in disaster, basically, like any time we try. I wrote my book, Mating in Captivity. Because so often people would come to see me and their opening line would be, we love each other very much, we have no sex. And that begged the question, why does good intimacy so often fade in people who continue to love each other as much as ever? This couple, these two women, they are completely stuck in an erotic stalemate. The context of the moment is that one of them is eight months pregnant, and everybody has been warning them about the expected decline of their sexual activity. You are eight months pregnant, and you are feeling a time pressure and a fear of what sex will be like after you have a baby, and, you know, the crazy things people tell you when you're pregnant and what your sex life will be after that. But it doesn't seem like this is just a developmental and circumstantial reality between them. Basically, the dance is that one of them approaches and the other one tries to do it right. But the word trying is what is complicated here. Because the moment she tries, her partner feels that she's not really into it. She then gets really upset and then they stop everything and then they launch a deep three-hour conversation into the night that brings them back together into their closeness and intimacy, but also into a complete erotic dry spell. And this gets repeated and repeated, so they arrive eager to break free of this sexual impasse. So let's listen. We've been together six years, and we have this shared friend, and we met. And it was very beautiful in that way. Just like, yeah, let's talk more. Let's do more stuff with each other. Let's plan a trip. Let's do it. Then we got married. And it was very freeing and very, like, pure. And what do you? Well, I think that initial metaphor, I always say it's like, I'm an anthropologist and she's a series of hidden doors. So I'm very curious about her. I want to know. And she's extremely... You can't say you because she's sitting next to you. It gives you wonder. You're very, very interesting to me. And then you convinced me to trust you in a way I've never trusted anybody else. Because you're made of more tough material than other people, I think. What would be your material? You're made of? What's my material? um i think i'm extremely certain about who i am what i want i have a lot of words immediately about my emotions it's very direct i'm trying to explain myself all the time and that kind of hides that I'm not really trusting of other people to do it for themselves and so I've developed these ways to really do a lot of work for them. I'm very sensitive to how they're feeling, I'm very alert, very vigilant to their moods and I'm very descriptive with how I feel and how I want to be treated so that they know how to get it right. I'm providing them all the data. And that implies your wife? I think a lot of times that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah, I think you are afraid of being misunderstood. I feel like you have a lot of words for your feelings and your emotions and you know what they are right when you're feeling them. And when you're feeling them you have to say them and I don't like I'll be crying and you'll ask me what's wrong or how what I'm feeling and I can't name a word for it but you're the person who's like slowly brought that out so you're learning a new language yeah that you didn't know existed or that you were taught to suppress or that wasn't valued? I think my value was that I'm easygoing. I'm not going to make a fuss, make a problem. You don't have to worry about me. And I get praised for being useful and helpful and kind and not making it about me. And I think part of what I learned with that was like, okay, so it's just like accommodate everyone else. Everything's okay if you're able to like maneuver around and go with the flow and not be bothered by anyone or anything. And what would you say are the circumstances of your life that made that way of being so appropriate? I think like my childhood, like growing up in two different houses, the really chaotic stepfather. Chaotic can mean a lot of things. If we're going to go to new language and more precision. He was more of a child than a parent in the way he acted. so was not dependable in that role to me while also chaotically ripping apart our house. And it turns out he didn't pay taxes and then we had to file bankruptcy and like both chaotic physically but also like emotionally. It was always like he was doing something wacky but in that house my grandmother lived on the bottom floor and so I just like hung out with her all the time. Whenever things were like a little chaotic, I was like, I'll leave, go be with my grandma. All that goes on upstairs and I take refuge over here. You shielded yourself. Yeah. And so why her of all people? Of all people, why you? I think you're unlike anyone I've ever met. You're so fun and funny. like I joke about it but you do have a zest for life that is very like infectious and I think I know I have that in me as well but it can be tamped down by my like pragmatism I think and you bring that out in me when I feel like I am like a stick in the mud or like you encourage me to have fun in life and I need that. So you're the stick and you're the arabesque. And what made you want to do a session here? How did that come about? Well, we've had a hard last two years. and I think we've really been having trouble connecting sexually. It just ends in disaster basically. Anytime we try, we'll intend to have sex. We'll start connecting and then something will feel off and however I bring that up will lead to conversation that becomes more and more emotional and heightened and heated, and it will end in us both sobbing and no physical connection happens. And then at this point, I think we're just kind of avoiding that entirely because it feels so stuck and so pointless to keep trying in that vein. But that's awful too. Like, I feel like I understand the pattern. Like, I understand why we're both making these mistakes, and I don't know how to not make them. So tell me, because this wasn't always like that, or, okay, it wasn't always that. So what is a little snapshot of sex between the two of us, the on's and off's? What's been the history? what's been glamorous and fun and glorious and blissful and what's been upsetting. I think, I don't know, maybe I'll speak for myself because I want to hear from you too. At the beginning especially, it was so much discovery. I remember I used to say, like I didn't know I was in a box. I'm stepping out of this box that I didn't even know I was in. Having sex with men was fine. Well, it wasn't that great, but like it could be fine. But having sex with a woman that I was in love with was extraordinary. I kept being more stretched out and more amazed at how good it felt. I remember crying a lot after orgasming, just being so overwhelmed by how happy I was. And I think then it got a little hard because there was like a disagreement of how much we wanted to have sex. But we went to therapy then and it got better. What did you do there that was helpful? I think the things we took from that that we still use are like, it's always better when we are lighter. We're at our best when we're like having a good time and it's fun and it's playful. I think in sex it gets too easy to dive into the like heady space and then we like in a deep conversation and then it just gets so heavy and we don know how to get out of it And when you go deep where do you go what exactly is it the same conversation over and over? In some aspects and I feel like it's just like there's so many things that have like globbed onto it where it's like you are eight months pregnant and you are feeling a time pressure and a fear of what sex will be like after you have a baby. And you've had a lot of self-body hatred that I think is attached to it. And it gets really like, do you desire me? And also my body is changing and will continue to change. And then I think you have had a past assault experience that I think we had previously talked about. But I think in the last year, at least how it is like risen to the surface more in that fear has is much more present for you than previously. So sometimes like that comes up, you get upset because you are picking up on my energy of uncertainty or nervousness in what to do next. your fear is that I don't want to be there and you don't want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to be there and so I think those like fears everything else starts like raining down on them and so then we're like having these conversations where we're pulling these apart but they're kind of conversations we've had a lot and then it's nine times out of ten gets to a place of okay we are connected again but we always end that being like why did we have to spend two hours going through that again. Yep. That's a good summary. And I think a lot of what I see as your fear is getting it wrong. And I've become so upset all the time that you are like very, very worried that you're getting it wrong. And then your touch becomes hesitant. And then I'm picking up on that and getting all wound up about that which makes you more nervous and not feeling super connected to what you want which is hard for you in the first place okay but you had a version of that a few years before you got pregnant and you went and sought help and somebody said, if you keep it light, you bring your playfulness into it, it actually will keep you in the experience. And you were able to do it, which is really important. There's a part of you that feels like there's a timeliness to it now. You feel like, ah, I've got a few more months of woman before mother, and then God knows what's going to happen to me. Well, it's definitely feeling like pressure. It feels like we're running out of time. We wasted all this time not connecting. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about becoming pregnant. How was that? And how much has that had an effect? Yeah, that was part of the hardness of the last two years. Okay. It just took a while. we had to immediately go to the doctor to do it. We tried a bunch of times with increasing intervention and then finally did IVF and it was very expensive. And, you know, it was a lot of hormones that made me crazy. Well, the IUI hormones that were terrible. Your whole life becomes revolving around this cycle and you can't plan anything, you can't travel and you can't. Yeah, so it sucked. I think we were both feeling really alone in different ways during a lot of it and had a really hard time. Tried our best to empathize with each other, but it was really hard to fully see each other because I think we were going through such different things. but can you have experiences where you feel more differentiated without that instantly meaning that you have to feel more lonely or alone well I'm not sure if this addresses what you're saying but we were being so careful with each other I am so empathic towards you I know you're trying so hard like you'd be like out of your mind doing chores, working so hard, making sure that everything was operating well. And I'd be trying so hard to like regulate my emotions so I wasn't taking things out on you. And we were just being like extremely polite to each other. We weren't connected. And it was kind of like roommates almost like in a kind way, but very separate. Welcome to marital formality. marital formality that's how I'm visualizing it as you describe it but you experienced it because you were going through something different i.e. you're pregnant I'm not you're doing the shots I'm not and this is like our first exercise where it's challenging for us to actually that's what I mean by differentiated recognize this difference without it becoming distant and formal and isolating so the question is how do you both have things that you know the other person may not fully see without having this have bad consequences because what you describe sexually is kind of similar. I began to not know exactly what you want and so I started to become so cautious. I don't want to do it wrong, whatever that means. In effect, I become more disconnected from my own pleasure because I'm busy making sure you're okay and it starts to become more caretaking than lovemaking. and when that caretaking takes place, we become emotionally entangled with each other, but we're not having fun. It kind of curtails the pleasure. We can be caring, we can be loving, but we're not able to actually let go, which is the foundation for being able to enjoy it. Yeah, I think that sounds right. I feel like we've before realized, like the fun, having fun together. What you call light, I call it fun. Yeah. But I'm talking, it's not just like fluffy fun. Yeah. Because you've kind of highlighted the importance of the light, of the lightness, right? This is the opposite of any conversation, psychological digging, plumbing, probing, responsible, loving, caring, but not able to. You can't do the two at the same time. When you bring to your sexuality a level of emotional responsibility and caretaking, you will block the erotic energy that is the playfulness that then becomes translated into sex. that means no talking anymore of that sort after, before, unrelated but not in that moment even if you have to stop stop, put some music, stop, do some breathing stop, do gentle touch don't start telling what's happening in your heads because you will go there because you're kind, loving, caring people. And you will think that you can't go back to the play until you've taken care of the bassinet. I want to clarify this a little bit because, of course, there is responsibility and worry and care in love. It's when the burden of responsibility becomes excessive or overwhelming to the person. It's when the caretaking takes over that I begin to sense that the very ingredients that nurture love are sometimes the same ones that stifle desire. Because if you feel intensely responsible for the other person, you cannot let go. Letting go, surrender, is an experience of freedom and unselfconsciousness. If you're busy making sure the other person is okay, you cannot actually enter inside yourself to surrender. That doesn't mean that one has to become careless. It's a real gradation. And some people understand that there is a way in which they love that makes it harder for them to make love to the person they love. And this is what I think about when I listen to them. It's like the kind of connection that they are cultivating brings the emotional security that they need. But sometimes what makes us feel emotionally secure is not the same as what It makes us feel sexually excited. And that's when they say the lightness is so important to them because the lightness means that we are being playful, mischievous, curious, and that lightness creates a certain differentiation, a certain space between them that then allows them to come close. It's difficult to go inside another. I'm not talking about orifices. I'm talking about the universe of another when you are already inside. we are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about we need to take a brief break so stay with us but how? it seems like sometimes I have such a bad feeling I'm so overwhelmed if you took her hand now when you feel that overwhelmed where would you put her hand because you were having a moment of it right now too right she's giving me something to do there's more thing i need to do i don't know how to get to it i can't even consider the thought of it because i'm instantly overwhelmed by the idea that i can't do it so and where do you put her hand when you're overwhelmed. Okay. And then, you want to lean your head in it. All right, let it go. Let your head lean in her hand. And then stop checking to see how she's doing. Don't check, is she okay? Is it okay? Am I asking too much? Am I too much? Stop thinking about her for a second. If you can. now you just went back to check on her stop checking on her and what I just said you can tell her too are you okay are you worried about yourself no let her know that you don't need that kind of caretaking in the moment it's okay you don't have to worry about me right now why did you take the hand off because I wanted to be able to check in on her we gonna have a little box for coins and every time you go to check on her you're gonna put coins in the box oh we'll be retired soon huh we'll have our retirement soon Okay. I don't know. It's like I feel like I already take up so much of the space being taken care of. Could it be possible that when you actually stop, you take more space? If you take the hand, do it again. so you put your hand you put it on your face right and then you lean your face on it and then you can close your eyes if you want that way it may help you a little bit more to not be so focused on her and then you realize I'm agitated and I'm just going to stay with the sensation I just need to bring me back in my body So I'm going to breathe. I'm going to use the hand because I'm resting on it. And it just feels solid. And I can let the weight of my head lean on her. And that leaning brings a lot of trust and safety because I'm not all alone. I'm just enjoying the feel of this. And by the way, you can move the hand. Because the whole effort for you is to not begin to try to think about any of this. It's okay. and we get taken out of our body and we go back in. And we go back in through touch, through breath, through movement. And that is how you keep this contained. How much of this have you been able to hear now? I think a lot. Tell me what you hear. well that it really needs to be protected from the emotional digging that that's very threatening to the space that it needs to be I think that feels really helpful when you're having a big emotional reaction my instinct is to like guard myself. And that makes you want to check on me more. What do you mean by guard? Like I get overwhelmed. When I'm mad. When you're mad. Sometimes I get overwhelmed when you're so upset because you're so sad. It just like feels so bad to watch that that I feel helpless and that I'm responsible and that I've caused this pain for you and don't want to sit in that bad feeling. And this credit that you're giving yourself is true or manufactured by your very creative mind? I think a little of both. Give it to me. You said it was 95% your fault the other day. I did say it was 95%. With great accuracy, you are measuring the credit. Well, you asked for the percent. I think some of it is like, if I know I'm causing pain or like doing something you don't want, all I can do is try to fix these problems that I've caused. Yeah, that it's like... Where have you caused... Okay. you're starting to connect with each other. You're playing around. It's supposed to feel good. What happens? When she gets angry? Yeah, like why suddenly anger? And that you caused on top of it. It's because like I touch her too lightly or in a way that she's picking up an energy that I am too nervous or don't want to be there or it's like this vibe shift that she picks up on that I am not always aware of. And so I think it takes me off guard where she's like, what's wrong? So that's the way you start communicating what's wrong? Well, previously. That's very useful. Well, I have expressed that's not a good way to reach me. That's the basic intent. But I think in this point, yeah, it depends on the situation. Sometimes you're able to ask in a way that feels a lot better. but I think you usually are saying like something feels off and I think I try to respond like I'm here with you, I'm trying. Oh, I'm trying. No, no, the trying is also off. Yeah. Okay, we're going to make a little list of the words that really are not helpful in this conversation. and then if I try something else and it still doesn't feel right then I think you get really upset. It escalates. And if you were to ask her in that moment for something do you say pinch me? Do you say squeeze? Do you say harder? Do you ask for something? Or do you start to ask her what's wrong? I mean, I think I sometimes ask for what I want. And when that doesn't feel good. To whom? Me. I get really upset. It's like describing what I want does not work to get what I want. and part of what seems like is missing is being with somebody who also wants that thing. I'm getting like somebody following instructions and it's not fun or pleasurable for both of us. So then what's the point? And do you have a kind of an instant despair? I'm never going to be met? I think that does happen a lot, yeah. Yeah. Especially after, like, not being able to communicate what I want for so long at this point. With her? Yeah. There's a lot that's being said here. But one thought is sexual frustration. It has a meanness to it. It has an edge. a person I once worked with described that when they have that kind of sexual frustration it's like the baby that can't find the nipple either they instantly get it or they get a little frustrated just trying to gauge and find that nipple but if they can't find it and if they can't latch on to it and if they can't instantly feel good they're thrown off into a total state of despair and cry. It's not just the actual hunger. It's also the emotional being met. And she says it. She says it in an adult language, but she points at something that is very young and very primary. It's all me and my desires that's driving everything. and then I have made it almost impossible for you to share and be connected to your desires. But now there's no fun, so there's none of your desires there. So if you want to say something, you cannot wait till she's done. Oh, that's tough. This is true in words. This is true in sex. yeah I think I give you a lot of space to be mad at me or to like yeah express everything I think especially if like you've been saying that you're trying to communicate something I'm not understanding it it feels like okay well I got to give her like a lot of space to try to like explain yourself and feel understood and feel that I'm getting it okay and that hasn't worked too great yeah okay no more talking so i watched this that's what i've been saying all along she continues and the more you try to make yourself available a good listener at the end you'll disconnect from yourself so the very thing that she's hoping won't happen is what she's colluding with you to create, unfortunately. You have got to stop her sooner. Nicely, kindly. The bigger you become, the better it will be. My nightmare. I thought I'm offering you an offer you can't refuse. You think it's your nightmare. sometimes people mean to do something really well, kind. I'm going to give you the space to explain yourself to me. But in the process, I'm going to be so focused on you that I'm going to end up losing me. And by losing me, you actually are not going to appreciate how much focus I put on you. You're going to be angry that I come to you and that I have lost my own identity, my own sovereignty, my own autonomy, my own desire, my own needs, because I'm all totally focused on you. All of that in the name of love. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. This is probably true in many aspects of your relationships. You have to grow. You have to take more space in the good sense of the word. you met someone who is the best teacher you can get in that department because she can take she expands the more room you give her the more she will feel it there's nothing bad about that but part of the attraction is for you to then learn some of that where she will learn from you that you don't have to say it six times or that if you ask for a certain touch and you don't get it immediately that doesn't mean that you are forever condemned in the kingdom of never being met that you will forever you know be too much but not be met so this is a kind of a miss is too much and miss is too little what would you want in those moments If you could rewrite that script. Like what I wish would happen? Or what you're going to make happen. I think stopping you from going down that path. How are you going to do this? Just saying you don't have to go down that road right now. Like, stay here. Can you say this with a little bit more conviction? Yes, but it's hard. You don't have to go down that road right now. Is that better? I felt slightly better. If you ask it. No, it didn't negate it. Okay, cut that out. You will do it until you feel, I got it. I got it. It's not so much in the words as it will be in the power of your voice, in the conviction, and in the, I know that I'm doing something good for us. Even if she's not there yet. Yeah. You have something available at that moment that she doesn't have. Why does it feel so hard? I don't know. It's almost like counterintuitive to like tell you to stop, to not give you the space to go down a dark hole. That that's actually what you need. yeah a container not space that let me grow indefinitely You have to be the genie living in a bottle If you do this with her, you will have changed something fundamental about your childhood too. Probably got to do that too. Do you understand? You see this? Yeah. You had these chaotic people. They expanded. They took up all the space. You shrunk. You went downstairs. The idea was my role is to make sure that I think about everybody else and I let them expand and take the least amount of space possible. And that was very self-protective and very useful. But when you do that with her, the reality is different. and she's very clearly telling you, I need, in this case, the more you rise, the more balanced the relationship will become. The more balanced the relationship will become, the more you can connect to your own desires. The more you connect to your own desires, the more she will have someone that she can bounce against. because you can't let go in front of someone who collapses. You can only let go when this person has confidence. If you're too scared or too fragile, then the other person holds back the whole time too. And that is exactly what happens sexually too. I believe it. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. How does it happen now? I just want to try something with you. Come. Which one wants to start? Me. Okay. Take your hand. Just start walking. This way. And this walking, you can call it like collaborate. so you know you're collaborating you're walking you're you're collaborating and now I'm gonna say I'm gonna say resist resist you're gonna have to pull a little more yes and passive totally passive and resist no fair using two hands and passive and collaborate so this enactment it's an exploration around different power positions one person is leading the other person is following they hold hands and one person walks across the room, this was in our offices here in the studios and in the first iteration I guide you and you are collaborating. Collaborate. So it's a fairly equal position. We both have decision-making. We share the direction, so to speak. Collaborate. In the second one, you resist. Resist. Resist. And instantly you hear the intensity shift. There is an energy in the body. There is a playfulness that sits in because resistance in playful mode is intensely fun. If I pull your hand and you keep pulling me and we pull in opposite directions, we have this tension, we have this force that is created. But you can only resist something that is trying to pull you with equal or stronger power. That is exactly what we are describing and exploring sexually speaking as well. The third stance is the passivity. And the passivity, you know, for some people, it's a treat to have somebody who just follows them around, a passive, sweet puppy with no intentionality of their own. And for other people, it's really a terrible experience to pull dead meat. So the exploration of these stances sheds a lot of light on the dynamics between people in relationships. so what was it like to lead and to be led my favorite one was leading when the other person that was no fair it felt very fun it felt more fun to drag you around resisting because because we were playing and you had a lot of intention, like we were playing a game. Passive was the worst. The collaboration was just like, this is nice to hold my wife's hand and walk around. Passive was boring and resisting was fun. Yes. Here's what I saw. I saw you bend and get close to the ground to master your strength and then to see what she got. So you probably felt that you had to build her strength. Yeah, that's probably right. I think sometimes it feels like I am responsible for both of us. For drawing her out. Yeah. and for explaining to her what she needs to do for me. And so I feel she's not rising to the occasion because I still have to explain it. Like I'm not being that firm. Yeah. Or it's like if I still have to generate it, I'm like, be strong for me. Like, I can't ask that. It takes away what it means for you to be strong. So then it doesn't count to you? Or it just still lies in my responsibility. You can't let go then, right? Uh-huh. Correct. Or you. That's the piece of control in sexuality that involves letting go. You cannot fully let go if you don't experience the sturdiness of the other person. So we both have to be sturdy and also let go. I think it's hard for me to believe that when I'm leaning fully on you that you're enjoying it. When I ask if you're enjoying it and you say yes, I don't believe you. I mean, it feels painful to hear you say that. I think I don't always know how to respond. Because it feels like if you already don't believe me, how else can I explain it to make you believe me? You take it upon you. If she doesn't believe you, it's your problem. That's not necessarily the case. If she doesn't believe you, that may be her challenge. That says more about how she thinks about herself or feels about herself maybe than even how she feels about you, I wouldn't be so quick to personalize it. On occasion, you enjoy when there's no chaos. That is enough for you to feel like you're enjoying. For her, enjoying is claiming. And that is going to be the opportunity that this relationship offers you. To learn how to do that. and to value it, to appreciate it, not just to learn, but to have it be something that enlightens and enlivens the relationship. Yeah, I think it's like we both are sometimes trying to take care of the other too intensely and then have a hard time connecting in that. And it's like something so simple is going back to like, touching each other with the trust that like we know we're trying to care for each other. That exists. But like fully letting go into that. It seems simple, but we don't do it. This is taking and receiving. You have primary verbs. There's seven verbs around sex, but in relationships too. But asking. Can you ask? Do you ask each other? Do you ask what you like? Do you know how to ask? Do you know what to ask for? Do you feel comfortable asking? Giving. You like to give. Do you give when you try to do it right? Do you give with ease? Do you give because you love to be generous and you love to know that you're the one who can give this? Do you give because you're afraid that you owe and that you're trying to acquit from your debt? There's lots of positive and more challenging things around giving. Same with receiving. For many people, receiving is the hardest, sexually speaking for sure. And if you have negative self-talk around your body, it will be harder. It's not harder to receive when she does it right, but when she doesn't do it right, you will instantly personalize it. So you each have your ways of personalizing. So you have asking, giving, receiving, taking. Then you have sharing. Then you have playing or imagining. and then you have refusing. And you can ask yourself, which is the verb that I need to practice more? Which is the one that comes easy for me? Which would I like to bolster a little bit? And they are all translated somatically in the body. one of the most important balances equilibrium in a relationship is how do i stay connected with you without disconnecting from me how do i stay connected with myself without disconnecting from you and i am looking at the relational patterns at the dance here one woman who is unbounded and one woman who's slightly walled off. One who takes up a lot of space and one who constantly effaces herself. And this very dynamic of, I make sure to tell people what I need so they will know how to behave toward me. What she doesn't say in the beginning of the session is that when she does that over time, she also doesn't believe that when they do it, They actually mean it. And the wife basically tries so hard to respond to the needs of her partner that in effect she has no idea what she wants and she's back at the stage that she was when they first met. I was someone who had been so overwhelmed in this chaotic household and I learned to not have much needs of anything. And here I find myself meeting someone who is an excellent teacher for expressing one's needs. She does it all the time. But in effect, we have now recreated the very dynamic that we were both trying to get out of. And it's playing itself out in all aspects of our relationships, especially sexually. Where Should We Begin? are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.