When to Quit (Jobs or People): How “Jolts” Drive Big Changes | Anthony Klotz

So have you ever had one of those moments at work where something kind of small happens, a comment, a meeting, a shift in tone, and suddenly you're just thinking, I am done. Maybe you've even Googled how to quit your job without burning bridges. So here's the thing. Those moments aren't random. They're what today's guest calls jolts. And they can just completely reshape your relationship with work if you understand what they are and how to unlock their power. And it's not just about work. is about your relationships. It's about life. Anthony Klotz is a professor of organizational behavior at UCL School of Management and the researcher who predicted the great resignation. His new book is called Jolted, Why We Quit, When to Stay, and Why It Matters. And this conversation, we unpack why a single moment can make you question everything. We explore the psychology behind those sudden urges to leave, why the first year in a new job is often the most fragile, how quiet quitting may actually be a healthy reset, but not in the way you think, and how to tell the difference between a temporary emotional spike and a signal that real change is needed. If you've been feeling unsettled about work lately, this one is for you. So excited to share this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. My name is Sherlock Holmes. It's an unusual name. Young Sherlock, a new series of Guy Ritchie. Discover the origin of the iconian's meesterbred. With Harrow Fiennes, Stephen, Donald Finn and Colin Firth. If you start wearing a hat like that, I will no longer be friends with you. As we have this conversation, we're, I guess, six years or so away from the beginning of this thing, the global pandemic. And you were one of the early people to really recognize what became known eventually as the Great Resignation, which then for many became the Great Regret, which led to the Great Return. And now with AI, over the last couple of years, it's starting to feel like for many the great pray and stay. Um, it's an incredible amount of whiplash about future expectations for work and life and everything in between in a remarkably short period of time. What's happening here? As you point out, a lot is happening. And even though the great resignation is well in the rearview mirror, and thankfully the pandemic is for the most part, some of the effects and the things that we saw during that time are still lingering with us and are still actually relevant for how we deal with whatever is coming our way with AI. You know, part of the reason that I predicted the Great Resignation had to do with these jolts, these events that sort of change our relationship with work. And there were a number of those going on during that time during the pandemic, including a lot of our jobs had become more difficult overnight due to the changes that we had to make in response to the social distancing and so forth. Our customers were in different places. Our employees were in different places. So this big adjustment to how we work, in many cases where we worked changed for better for some and maybe for worse for others. And then the pandemic was a reminder of all of our mortality and that there was a lot of death and illness around. And whenever that's the case, we tend to think big thoughts. And so there were all of these changes that were wrapped up in the pandemic that were causing us to stop and think, am I on the right path here? And as you point out, a lot of people decided, no, and I want to quit my job and do something different. And in many cases that worked out well. In other cases, we had the great regret where people said, maybe I made the wrong decision a year ago and I want to go back, or this isn't actually what I want to do. It's actually a third thing that I would like to do. And so now here we are in a very different labor market than back then where employers have more power. Employees have less leverage room. But this AI is coming. And I don't think any of us know exactly what it's going to look like. But it certainly has the characteristics of these jolts again. It may be that it changes many of our jobs for the better. It suddenly takes away a part of our job that we don't like doing anyway. And our job becomes better. It could have the opposite effect. And of course, there's a lot of talk about just general displacement of jobs. And so these forces, although they're not the same, that led to me making a prediction that there was going to be a lot of turnover and turmoil. They seem to be gathering around again. Now, what's unique isn't that really mobile job market out there. Part of what's going to be interesting this time is as people maybe feel that urge to do something different, the labor market isn't going to necessarily cooperate as well. And so people have to figure out in place, how do I deal with these different events, these different jolts in my life and career. We're going to deconstruct that word jolt that you've used a number of times. Also, we're going to go very deep into it. It's the focus of a lot of your recent work. Before we get there, though, I'm so curious about sort of like a meta phenomenon around what's happened. And it's this notion that as I was looking at what was unfolding, one of the things I got really curious about over sort of like all the shifts happening during the pandemic that I never really heard many people talk about was the scale of people that were making really big disruptive changes in their work was profound. And yet you could argue that some of that was literally because workplaces shut down. Everyone was forced to go remote. But as you were describing, people made much bigger changes than that. They made entire wholesale changes in career paths and industries. And I remember some of the stats around people who are retraining for entirely new, like the schools for certifications and master's degrees and stuff like that. Like, you know, enrollment was off the charts. and I always wondered if part of what was going on that I never really heard talking about was the level of normalization for making wildly disruptive changes in direction was like nothing we'd ever seen because guaranteed a lot of the people who made big disruptive changes, they weren't happy long before the pandemic. There were all sorts of grumblings. There were things kind of like, oh, I wish I was doing this. I'm not satisfied. I'm not fulfilled. It's not purposeful. I don't love my boss, my team, the mission. And this was going on for years before that. If you look at engagement numbers in the corporate world, they've been awful for years. This is not a new phenomenon. And yet the pandemic did something where I feel like it normalized these big disruptive changes. It made them socially and familially acceptable because everyone was doing it on a level that kind of made all these people who never would have done it say, maybe it's because everyone's doing it now. It's more okay. What's your lens on that? I think that's a spot on observation. So, I mean, a lot of the times in life, we're sort of pinned into our current situation, often just by plain old inertia. So we get used to maybe being a little bit disengaged at work. And it takes some sort of event or seeing someone else do it to really say, hey, I can do that too. And so, as I mentioned, like when our work sort of suddenly changes overnight, when we start thinking these, you know, sort of big thoughts that have to do with it, you know, a lot of us at the beginning of this, we're thinking, is the world going to make it through this? Or is this the end? And so when you have those thoughts, you know, that's often provides like pretty fertile ground to have epiphanies, like if this is it, what do I want to do to my life? What are these paths that I haven't taken that I wish I had taken? And so I think that that lockdown was a period of time where we had a lot of time on our hands to reflect. And these events that were pushing us out of the inertia a little bit. But to your point, there was also a contagion effect. Whenever it comes to making a big change, it's something we dream of doing on a regular basis, making a big change, making the big leap. But there's a lot of risk associated with it. And there's a lot of reasons we can come up with for avoiding that risk. But when we see others doing it, that makes it seem more palatable and gives us some contagious courage to do the same thing. And I think, you know, this was at the same time when what I thought was great was that people talking about quitting and the great resignation sort of brought up this conversation that, yeah, maybe I'm not ready to go back to life as it was. I don't want to go back to that old normal. I want some sort of new normal. And I want to explore that. And the more that on social media, people started showing themselves quitting, talking about quitting, I gave others the courage to do the same thing. Now, of course, that made me nervous as well, because quitting is a big decision or making these huge life changes, having this epiphany and then following that epiphany. Often it does work out well, but if it isn't well thought out, it can lead to, you know, a negative career change, a negative life change. So, but yeah, the contagion of these epiphanies, these pandemic epiphanies was definitely something to behold back then. Yeah, it was really powerful. And we're talking in the context of work, but you know, the truth is all these decisions, especially in the context of what happened over the pandemic, the work was the thing that we pointed to as the big change that we're making. But the underlying driver, I think a lot for most people was much more existential and relational. What is the way that I've been devoting myself to this thing I call my job? How's that affecting me, my mindset, my health, my relationship with my kids, my partner, my friends, my community? I feel like we looked at this thing, we pointed at this thing called my job and said, like, this is the catalyst, like, this is the thing I'm going to change. But that was really just the thing we pointed to. There were much deeper drivers. Yeah. I mean, we know our satisfaction with our job, our engagement is highly correlated with our life satisfaction. But I think to your point, that's largely a product of how many hours we spend at work. So you're going to expect that correlation to be there. And you did hear, and I think people still feel this way to this day, this, a lot of the epiphanies were around. It used to be, I would try to fit my whole life around work. And you know what? I'd like that to flip. Can work please fit a little bit more around my life? And I think that statement was really saying, there are these elements of my life that I want to explore, that I want to have blossom, but because I'm having to compartmentalize them or squeeze them around work, that's not happening. And so I think work was a bit of an obstruction there and it's why a lot of people focused on it. But really what they were trying to do is say, how can I break this up to like, you know, beyond my path to the good life, explore the things that I want to explore and not have work close off these avenues that I want to experience. I love that notion of a sort of a flipping around, sort of like, you know, like work in service of life, life in service of work. Absolutely. I wonder also if part of what, I love your take on this, a part of what was happening is that so many of us spent so many hours at work. And because of that, we tried to solve for community, for belonging at work also. And then we're at home. And then we're sort of like in our local community. And then we're working remotely, but we're still kind of hanging out in our local community. And we start to participate in our local community again. And the light bulb goes off. It's like maybe that need that I have for belonging, for community, I can actually solve for it differently. And I actually like solving for it locally, just in my neighborhood, a lot more than when I thought the only place I could really get that need satisfied was through the people at work. And this is something that I thought a bit about. And I don't have data to back this up, but it strikes me as perhaps uniquely American or very American in that a lot of our needs are met through work and definitely our social needs. Like a lot of our social community comes from the individuals that we work with and, of course, insurance and lots of other sorts of things. And I think you're exactly right. You heard so many stories during the time when, especially folks who were in the office and then were all of a sudden spending time, much more time at home in their community with their family, their eyes just sort of opening up to a different way of living more in these, I don't just want to say third spaces, but in these places that aren't home, that aren't necessarily work, but that are community spaces. and connecting with people who stretch their thinking in different ways, spending more time with different family members and making these like really deep connections. And you heard, and I think people still feel this way, is that when it comes to work, like, yes, I want to have these really strong relationships at work. I want to contribute and I want people to contribute to my sort of need for belonging, but I can't be so unidimensional anymore that that's where I get, you know, all or the majority of those needs met. Yeah, it feels good to be in service and a part of this broader community, however you define that. And I think that's a switch that you still sort of see it today. I love that switch. And I think we're all still trying to figure that out. I think, you know, the pandemic sort of like opened this big curiosity around it. And now we're all kind of figuring out like, what is our, what is my individual balance there Remembering as you describing that years ago I read this book Daily Rituals which basically shared the 24 rituals and schedules and behaviors of many of the world greatest writers and creators and artists. And one of the things that struck me about it was a lot of them did the thing that they became well-known for, their art, their performance, their contribution, their writing, on the side. It wasn't their main job. They worked at the post office or they worked in just a very kind of work a day job. And it wasn't that they were looking to finally get to a point where they could leave the job and do this other thing. They loved the fact that they were doing both because the nine to five was taking care of their basic needs for just fundamental security and stability and let them kind of go to the place they needed to go completely untethered in the world of uncertainty on the creative domain. And I feel like we often don't talk about that as a legitimate viable option. I completely agree with you. And I think finally, it is getting a little more attention around this umbrella of side hustles and the research being done in this space. But to go back to your earlier point, when we have a stable job that takes care of a lot of our needs, and then we have a certain limited period of time for whatever that side hustle, maybe for whatever creative endeavor it could be. You know, we know from lots of research that creativity thrives when it has tighter boundaries around it. When you know, I've got one hour to write or two hours to write, this needs to be my best work. I need to push away distractions. That's where some of the best work can come from. We don't need these like necessarily big pockets, but there's also more, we're finding more of a symbiotic relationship there than we even thought in that when you go do that creative activity, it stretches your mind in different ways. It gives you this burst of positive emotions. And those don't stay out there with you in that project. When you come back into the office, you bring that with you. And so you interact with your colleagues in a more positive way. You're a little bit more creative at work, and you have more positive experiences at work that you then take with to the creative endeavor outside of work. And so it always sort of baffles when I hear leaders talking about their concern around what if an employee is doing this like big creative endeavor or this extra thing outside of work and it's like as long as it's not interfering it's probably contributing to their positive energy and performance at work so um yeah i think the more that we dig into that you mentioned ai earlier i think that's going to potentially enable more and more people to launch a side venture that they're really passionate about or to pursue that creative endeavor or to create this thing that they've been thinking about for a long time. Yeah. I mean, that would be so interesting. And that would be one of the things with a lot of fear being talked about, about job replacements, stuff like this. Maybe this is actually one of the things where it enables a single person to do that thing they've had in their mind for like years maybe, but never had the bandwidth or the ability or the resources. And this actually enables it. So, and I would imagine the same benefit that you're talking about, like the carryover benefit the workplace, that's also got to show up in your relationships, in your mental health in certain ways as well. Yeah. And the boundaries between work and life are very porous. And especially as these lines become more and more blurred over the past 20 or 30 years, we don't go to work and not communicate with the family until the end of the workday anymore, right? We're in constant communication with the outside world, working in different places. and so forth, that the positive experiences that you have in the evening after work, of course, the sleep quality that you have, even going back to routines, was your morning routine disrupted or not that morning? All of those things show up in the workplace, not only in terms of your cognitive abilities, but to your point, how you interact with others, how much positive emotion and relational energy you bring into the workforce the next day. So I have a little bit of research that looks at the effect of nature on workers. So coming into contact with nature inside or outside of work. And one of my favorite studies is we show that to the extent that people spend time in nature in the evening after work, they actually come to work the next morning in a better mood and perform better and have better interactions at work the next day. So the effects aren't huge. But the point is that, yeah, that's exactly right. These outside events definitely can bring in positive energy the next day. I love that research, by the way. And I'll contribute my end of one here. I literally just got back from a two-hour hike in the front range of the Rockies. I'm in Boulder, Colorado. And I do that probably four days a week straight, completely through the winter, pretty much no matter what the weather is. It is transformative. It lets me show up. When I sit down to have a conversation or to write or to have a meeting, I'm a different person with that exposure to nature. It's amazing. It really, I mean, we're finding that it really ticks like four boxes of energy. Like you come back cognitively sharper. So you can think more clearly. Your emotions are more positive. You have this higher emotional energy. To your point, what we call pro-social energy, your ability to connect with other people is higher. Like nature reminds us that we're all connected. And then because you're out walking in the Rockies or in the foothills, physical energy actually goes up too. You just feel more vigorous. So yeah, it's a special ingredient. That's for sure. Yeah. Completely. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Colin Firth. If you start wearing a hat like that, I will no longer be friends with you. Young Sherlock, a new series. Like now, I'll lay no prime video. Let's drop back into this notion of jolts that you mentioned earlier. We tend to have this notion of change, especially big changes. You know, it's kind of building and building and building and building and building. And then eventually you just make, you have a different lens on this. You use this word jolt. And when we hear the word jolt, we feel it almost like a lightning bolt. take me into this concept. Yeah. So the concept of jolts can be contrasted with exactly what you just said, this change that happens from a very slow build. And so the notion of jolts comes from research on, on why do people quit their jobs? And it's been studied for over a hundred years. And for most of that time, the slow build theory that you describe was the dominant theory. And for good reason, because it makes a lot of sense. And it does explain why people make big changes a lot of the time. And it's just based on these two push and pull factors. And, you know, when it comes to the workplace, why do people quit their jobs? Well, part of it is push factors. So in any situation, when the negative factors of that situation build up, co-workers, boss, the work tasks, your pay, when the negatives build up, it sort of pushes you toward the door. And then there's these pull factors, which is a positive situation that is pulling you away from work. So I've always wanted to get my MBA. I've always wanted to go work in a small business, whatever it may be, these other opportunities pull you away. So in general, we think about and we weigh up, like, are these push factors pushing me enough away? Are the pull factors good enough to get me to move? And it makes complete sense. The only problem is, as researchers looked at a lot of turnover, they were finding that push and pull only explained about 50% of the cases where people quit. But, you know, the other half of the time, these individuals leaving their jobs voluntarily, it seemed irrational. Like, why would somebody who seems largely content at their job all of a sudden leave? Why would somebody who's disgruntled stay and so forth? And this is where a fairly big discovery was made. And it had to do with jolts. And these jolts are often also called career shocks or shocks. And it's these one-off events, these moments, largely unexpected. It could be in our personal life or our professional life. And this event, for some reason, causes us to stop and rethink our situation. In this case, as it relates to work, my relationship with work isn't what I thought it is. And it could come from a small comment where you're in a meeting, you put an idea out there that you've been thinking about, and your boss just shoots it down sort of disrespectfully. So nothing huge. It happens every day. But sometimes it catches you in such a way that you say, wait a second, what am I doing here? if this idea that I tried to push forward. I think we've all had that response at some point in our careers. Yes, yes. So as we started to look into these, we found like, yeah, you know, 50% of the time, this is what was, you know, this played a role in individuals leaving. And this really is a bit of a mindset shift to think about. It's not just all about these slow changes in the relationships in our life and our relationship work, but these one-off events can have these immediate and lasting impacts. And of course, the challenge is these events often come with a lot of emotion and with the urge to act right away, especially if, you know, it's post great resignation and lots of people are quitting and you experience this and you think that's what I should do, too. And so the problem is, is in the wake of these events, people often don't make the best decisions. And so I think we can do a better job at sort of shifting our mindset and recognizing when one of these events happens and saying, okay, does this mean anything? If so, what does it mean? Yeah. I want to tease out something you just said, though, because I think it's really important. When you hear the word jolt or career shock or shock, you know, my tendency, at least, is to think, oh, this is a big thing that happens. It's like, it's a huge thing. You know, there's, you know, a change in ownership of the company or, you know, like a big rupture on the team. But what you just described was different. So I want to zero in on that. Like, you described this scenario where you're sitting in a meeting, everyone's going around the table, like you offer up an idea, the boss shoots you down. And maybe you've been like, you had ideas shot down a hundred times before and you're like, oh, that kind of sucks, but whatever. Like everyone's in the same boat. And for some reason that day, the boss does it again. And there's something inside of you that just says, oh, hell no, this is not what I signed up for. This is not how I want to live. And like, you're just automatically, you're like, boom, something just happened. What's interesting to me is objectively from the outside, looking in, somebody would look at that and be like, this is not the giant rupture that people talk about. And then when you go home and you talk to your friends or your partner or your colleague, you're like, this just happened. I am out. And they're probably raising an eye about it. You're like, really? Like that? But for you, this is huge. Teach this out a little bit more for me. Yeah, and this is part of what makes these events, these jolts, so hard to identify and so hard to predict when they'll happen and how we'll respond. Because it's really when a constellation of factors come together that turn a mundane event into something that really potentially changes the course of our life or at least makes us think about it. And, you know, continuing that example of that morning meeting, you know, it could be that on that morning, something else happened that sort of keyed you up to thinking about there's other possibilities in life. Or it could just be that you got a bad night's sleep the night before and you're a little bit cranky, but actually that crankiness set you up to respond in a way to that rude comment that made you think about why am I putting up with this? What makes it tough is I could make the equal argument that after like a perfect night's sleep where you're cognitively sharp and you're on the ball, that rude comment could really zing then. And so this is what makes it somewhat difficult. And often you were only able to explain it in hindsight that that's what led to it. That's what happened. I had a message from a friend who was an early reader of the book just a couple of days ago. and the message just said, I've just been jolted. And so I was like, you know, of course I said, do tell. And they said, I was just in there in a fairly new role. And they said, I was just doing this set of mundane tasks. And it just made me realize I just accepted this new job with what was supposed to be a lot more responsibility that I've asked for. And I'm doing the same things I was doing. I'm still underemployed. It just took me a second to realize it, but it was, it was the act of doing these mundane tasks that they just got this like really clear image. This isn't going to work for me. And now hopefully I was like, I said, well, there's some things we can talk through and hopefully there's some change that can be made. But it is a situation where it's really hard to explain when they're going to strike. There are some frameworks that are somewhat helpful to think through. And one of the ones I like, this is by a couple of researchers at Michigan State and Georgia Tech, Fred Morgerson and Dong Liu. And they argue that these events are often the ones that are disruptive to some extent So it rude comment in a meeting disruptive What interesting is to the extent that the event is novel or hasn happened before that makes it more likely to be a jolt And then that it really cuts at something that valuable to you Like those three things happen. That makes it more likely to be jolting. But again, it can be just an average event. The other interesting part of, you know, we're using an example of like slight disrespect or rudeness. And I love that you point out that bystanders or maybe your family would say, big deal. It's just rudeness. It's like you've been complaining about this for years. Why now? Yeah, that's exactly right. And as we're looking into it, these small slights can be especially difficult to deal with because they cause a little bit of confusion in you. So your boss is rude. And you might think to yourself, was I imagining that or was she really being rude to me? It's something that you don't really feel comfortable asking about. And so it's this sort of nebulous event that happened that leads you to do a little bit of questioning. And then you follow that up with a bit more. The other behavior that we see, a small behavior or a small incident that has big effects is small events of ostracism where you're like left out. And one example I use is like being, realizing that you're left out of a group text that you thought you were a part of. That's an example that's been brought up a few times. But as human beings, we're like very, very sensitive, probably from an evolutionary standpoint, we're very sensitive to being left out by other humans. And so something as small as realizing like, wait a second, am I not as tight with a social group that I thought I belonged to? Am I not as tight with them as I thought? That can be that event where it's like, maybe I need to find another social group. And so we're increasingly finding that, of course, like the big negative events in your life, those sort of are by definition can be jolts. But these smaller, more subtle events, which happen all the time, sometimes when the constellation of factors come together can be quite eye opening for us. And, you know, we've been talking about this in the context of work, but we could very easily just zoom this out pretty much into any domain of life. This could be a jolt in a relationship. This could be a jolt in your health. It could be jolt in so many other things where it leads to just an awakening almost. And it feels like sometimes also part of what we may be talking about, it's like the final straw in the camel's back phenomenon. There's stuff that just has been building and building and building and building and you deal with it. You know, you live with it. Like you feel like it's just, it would be more painful to leave than it would be like to stay at this point. And then finally, there's that one tiny little thing which seems so innocuous from the outside, but it is the straw that breaks a camel's back. And it's like, nope, that's it. No more. You know, it's hard for us to predict how much we can take when we're in a bad situation and just a situation that isn't very pleasant. And we might think to ourselves, we're handling this pretty well. I'm used to this. I can deal with it for a long time. And then it's a small event that makes us realize, oh, I'm wrong. I can't take this anymore. I need to make a change in order to survive. Yeah. You make a really interesting distinction also between different types of jolts. You talk about direct jolts, collateral jolts, and honeymoon jolts. Tease out how these are different and why we care that they're different. Part of it mattering why they're different, and I'll talk about them a little bit, is hopefully opening people's eyes to the different places where jolts reside in our lives so that they can be a little bit more prepared for how they feel when they deal with them. And direct jolts are the most straightforward. And these are negative events that happen at work and cause us to rethink our relationship with work. And we've been talking about some of these. There's the big ones, being harassed or experiencing a big work failure. Those may be signs that this isn't the workplace for you. And so it's very natural for us to have those considerations. These more subtle sorts of things like rudeness and ostracism and customer mistreatment, which we're sort of told is normal in the workplace. Sure, it could be normal in some workplaces, but that doesn't mean that it's any less jolting. So we sort of expect jolts from there. The collateral jolts, you know, people are experiencing jolts around us that sort of reverberate and cause us to rethink things as well. In the workplace, I mentioned contagion earlier. In the workplace, the best example of this is turnover contagion. When one of your co-workers leave or your boss leaves or one of your employees leaves, it greatly increases your odds of quitting as well. So it's that moment where you realize part of the reason we do like work is often we like the people who are around us. So when one of our friends leave, our workplace becomes a little less bright. And I also have to probably pick up some extra work unpaid for that person. And of course, I wonder where they went as well. So I definitely personally, I've definitely experienced these collateral jolts of turnover contagion in my career a few times. And then, And one of my favorite types are these honeymoon jolts. This is somewhat counterintuitive, or at least it was counterintuitive to me when I first heard it. But the most common year for turnover, the most common year for quitting a job is your first year in a new role. And so we often think that's when you would be the most committed because you're excited to join. And this gets back to your point about the great regret and that that first year is actually a pretty common time for jolts because during the process where you're getting ready to join this new job, this new organization, this new relationship, you set these expectations in your head of what it's going to be like. And then you meet it for the first time for the first year. And a lot of things go well, but there's a few expectations you had in your head that all of a sudden aren't met. And so you have this moment that happens in your first month, first week, first day, first year on the job, where that's not what I thought it was going to be. And if I had known that this is how it was going to be, would I have left my prior job? And that's where some of the regret comes in. And this effect where we often walk into jobs in a really positive state and then have these breaches of what we had in our mind of what the job was going to be like. This whipsaw goes by the name of the honeymoon hangover effect, where we walk into the honeymoon and then it quickly becomes a hangover. And it's often a specific jolt that opens our eyes to this job maybe not being what we thought it was. Okay, so here's my curiosity around this. I'm nodding along, and you sort of categorize these as three workplace jolts. Why are these not general jolts? I mean, because I can see these three applying to literally every part of life. Or is it just more that the focus is and the research is more around workplace with these? Yeah, if you want the boring but true answer, it's probably because I'm an organizational psychologist. So like I look at these things through the lens of the organization, right? But the organization is just a web of relationships, right? So you could substitute the word community and it would apply. You could substitute the word any sort of relational partner. So throughout the book, I talk about relationships with work, but of course you could take these and apply them pretty easily. And some of the research that I talk about about, okay, what should we do in response to these jolts? Actually, the options we have come from some of the relationship literature and some of the economics community literature of what we do when we're in a community that we have a problem with, or what do we do when we're in a relationship with somebody else and we have a problem with it? Well, it turns out you have the same options and the same is true in the workplace as well. So I think you're right to point out a lot of overlap there. And that's why I hope this notion is applicable to everyone. And I can provide some advice around work, but it's pretty easy to port this out to other elements of life as well. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. My name is Sherlock Holmes. It's an unusual name. Young Sherlock. A new series of Guy Ritchie. What game are we playing today? Entend the origin of those days are surely behind me. There has been a break-in. Astounding. You should be a detective. If you start wearing a hat like that, I will no longer be friends with you. Young Sherlock, a new series. Kijk nu, alleen op Prime Video. For those joining us now, they're probably nodding along saying, sure, I've experienced my versions of this and they can point to it. And then the big question, like the looming question is, okay, so what do I do? Jolts are inevitable and they are. We're all going to experience them. We may invite them in, we may cause them, or they may be hoisted upon us. So we're all going to experience them. Then the big question is, how do we move through these moments, through these jolts in a way where when we find our way, when we navigate through them and we kind of get to the other side, it's a positive experience rather than just a wildly destructive and devastating experience. Take me to some thoughts around how we start to do this in a way that really is constructive. Yeah. I mean, that's the tough part. And the tough part is sometimes it's not necessarily going to be a positive experience. It may end up being a negative one, but going through it in a controlled and thoughtful manner, I think is critical. And so often when, when people say they've experienced a jolt or they, this thing happened and they're thinking about quitting, what should they do? So what I suggest is that people do nothing. And I don't mean actually do nothing, but I mean, don't make any rash decisions unless you're in a really tough situation. This is really a time to take a minute and say, what is this jolt telling me? It's saying it's making me question my relationship and which means there's maybe a problem somewhere in here. There's a little bit of a process that I want to go to to see if I can isolate the problem. I can run some diagnostics on this relationship and see what's going on. And part of this is just thinking about, and I know you're very familiar with this, thinking about our path to the good life. And is this relationship taking us toward that or not? And when it comes to the workplace, we can think about what are the main parts of our job that help us on the path to our good life. And a lot of that has to do with the people who we interact with at work, the tasks that we do at work, and then the meaning and purpose that we get out of our work and from being a member of this workplace community. And so you can run these diagnostics and say, is there a problem here? And if so, is it fixable or not? And in the workplace, something being fixable often comes in the form of, can I speak up about this to my boss and have a solution made? So there's this certain workplace relationship that's toxic and it's making it very difficult for me to work. Is there a way for me to solve this problem? And often there's a power dynamic that's at play here as well. Yeah, that's exactly right. And for many of us, we're on the wrong end of that power dynamic. And so there's only so much we can do. And that's why I say, you know, time doesn't heal all wounds, but it heals some wounds. And so the first thing to do is just to diagnose and do nothing and see if action is warranted. The next is that you're exactly right, is depending on the power that you have or your persuasion abilities, speak up. And can I change my situation to solve this? If not, then you're getting closer to that path of like, okay, I've tried a couple options and they're not working. The next thing that I encourage people to do is, you know, was captured by a wonderful buzzword a couple of years ago called quiet quitting. And that's actually like shrinking the size of work in your life while still performing the core of the job at a high level. For many of us, the size of our job slowly grows over time and we don't notice it until it causes a big problem. And so often jolts, especially those that come from the relationships that we have outside of work, reveal that work has become too big of a part of our lives and we need to sort of resize it. And so there may be an opportunity that if you can't speak up and change your job, maybe there's an opportunity to lean back and slowly sort of cut back on the extra things that you're doing to resize the relationship. Before you move on, I want to tease out a little bit more because you said something when we heard quiet quitting, sort of like, you know, it became this buzz phrase. It's all over social media. And the association there was, okay, I've been exploited for a lot of this. I'm going to finally basically just start phoning in. I'm going to do the minimum possible to keep my job, to keep getting paid, but like not an ounce more. What you just said was keep doing the core part of your work at the highest level. possible, which is different. And part of the challenge with quiet quitting and the way it emerged in a lot of these viral buzzwords, but this one in particular, I thought was pretty nuanced. It came from TikTok and it instantly got conflated with disengaging or slacking off. Right Like phoning it in Yeah exactly Phoning it in And for me the way I tend to think about our jobs at a high level is that we have the core of our job that we need to get done And then we have a lot of extra stuff we do if we good citizens if we feeling like it if we have the bandwidth We arrive early, we stay late, we help out coworkers when we see them in need. We go to meetings that we don't need to go to just to stay informed about the organization. If somebody says something bad about it, we speak up. There's these extra activities that we do if we're enjoying our job. And this is part of a natural relationship between us and our job. They're not necessarily paid, so they can seem exploitative as well, but they're part of any good relationship. If the two parties are investing each other in each other, there's more of the citizenship behavior where you give back. And so there's these two elements of our job. And really, to me, quiet quitting is the realization that this extra part of my job has gotten too big. And this is a naturally happens over time. And there just might be a little bit of right sizing that needs to go on in a way that protects your employment by carving out that middle piece that the core element that you do well, but also reclaims some of yourself that you've given to the job that maybe it's not giving back as much. And, you know, when organizations do layoffs, they often call it right sizing. Look, the business isn't the right shape and we need to get at the right shape to match the size of the business that we're doing. And I think this is a little bit of pruning as well, like the garden of your job and just saying, I want to make sure that it's the right shape. So I don't see quiet quitting or what I call it. I call it leaning back. I don't see that as a negative thing. I see it as during certain seasons of our life, we're able to put everything we have into work. And during other seasons, we're not able to. That doesn't mean we're not good workers who are doing a good job. It just means we don't have the energy, the resources to go as far above and beyond. And so jolts may reveal that this is the best option for you is not to quit. You can't change your situation, but you can change the amount of energy and time you're investing in work versus other elements of your life. And through that rebalancing, the organization may be happy. They're able to retain you. You're still doing a great job and you're much better balanced in a more positive state. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense to me. And I think one of the things that you said is, you know, like when both sides are sort of like bringing equal energy to the relationship, my sense is when that's true, then yeah, there can be a negotiation. There can be a reworking of the, you know, the scope creep. There can be, maybe even you bring yourself to what you're doing a little bit differently. So it just feels better to you. But I think what I saw a lot of the quiet quitting being a reaction to was people feeling like they were bringing all of themselves to the job. There was scope creep. They were being asked to do more and more and more over time. And they were, and they were showing up and they were doing more. And the other side was not. They were just saying, look, I feel like I've got you. I feel like you don't have a lot of options to leave. So I'm going to extract as much as I humanly can from you unless and until you just decide to bail. And then if and when you do, there are 10 people behind you waiting for your job. So like good riddance. my sense is that was a lot of the feeling like there wasn't a feeling of we're both showing up and giving equally to the job and we're both contributing energy to it i think that's spot on it's really just a matching principle and if both sides are over investing in the relationship that's wonderful like that's the foundation for a long-term happy relationship where we're both sides are doing that but as soon as one side drops off that then that becomes an unfair situation and as humans like one thing we're really good at detecting is unfairness and we have strong reactions when we sense that that i'm investing and not getting back that's an unfair situation and we're pretty good at saying okay what are my options for rebalancing the relationship here so that we reach a fair point again and i think you're exactly right that's what quiet quitting was all about yeah and that's again it's the exact same thing when it comes to your personal relationships. It's like, if you feel like you're showing up and giving and giving and giving, the other person's kind of like, yeah, I'll keep taking, but I'm not going to give the same. Content builds, anger builds, and that's where speak up or navigate. And a lot of people actually do the equivalent of quiet quitting in relationships when it gets that way. And in that context, I don't think that ever ends well. Yeah, this was one of the great discoveries I found from the relationships literature. And some of these tactics that we're talking about came from this early framework from an economist of, and there was, when you're in a community or you have a government that you don't feel like really represents you, what are your options as a citizen? Well, you can exit, you can say nothing, or you can speak up. Like those are your exit voice and loyalty. Those are your options. And then a psychologist, Carol Rusbolt, came along and said, well, I think there might be another option, but let's see if we can study this in college students who are in relationships. And I'm like, what better place to study relationships than undergraduates in college? And this fourth element showed up and it was neglect. It was how often, you know, if you're in these early relationships in your life, you don't want to end the relationship and hurt the person's feelings, but you're not in it anymore. so you stop, you sort of protect yourself and detach. And I see that as like a precursor of what eventually became quiet quitting and what I call lean back. And I think it's a very sensible strategy to protect your wellbeing if you're not willing to take the next step. And the next step is of course quitting. You also talk about this notion of, to the extent that you can, avoiding cognitive traps. We're really good at telling ourselves the story that we want to hear to justify the decision that we kind of want to make. Even though it may not always really be based on objective fact as much as close as we can get to whatever objective fact even means, we're really good at fooling ourselves. And in these situations in particular, this can be an issue. Yeah, we can sort of rationalize away. And I think that often lays the groundwork for future regret. When we look back and realize, I fell into some of these cognitive traps. I took some of these cognitive shortcuts and I didn't think everything, I didn't sort of do everything I could to make sure that the relationship was faulty and that I needed to leave. I could have tried some different things. And so that is part of why I recommend, you know, going through the steps of really diagnosing what is the problem here? Is it something that I can tolerate? Is it something that I can fix? And then at the same time, really being clear about what are the benefits that you're getting from your current workplace? Because it's often when we leave a relationship that we realize, oh no, I didn't sort of value some of these things I had. You don't know what you got till it's gone. And so really taking the time to say, is the grass here as brown as I'm making it out to be? Or are there some patches of green? And there are a few of these that sneak up on us. And one of them I talk about is social capital, but what goes by the name of goodwill, you know, more commonly. And it's that when you spend a long period of time in a relationship with other people or as part of a team, you know, you build up this bank of social capital or good will where when you don't have your best day, it's okay. People understand you're a good performer and it's, you're just having a bad day. When you need to get something done really efficiently, you can call in a favor, you can reach out to somebody and so forth. These sorts of goodwill only build up through lots of positive interactions over time. And you can think I'm going to move over to this other relationship and that goodwill will pick back up in a hurry, but it doesn't always happen. You can get off on the wrong foot in that relationship and that doesn't result in sort of the bank of goodwill that you had in your prior relationship. I do think it's worth, even though quitting gets a lot of fanfare and there are definitely times to quit. Most people who you talk to who are, have had successful lives and careers can point to when they needed to quit, they cut their losses, quit and took this different path. So you don't want to shortchange quitting, but it's also about quitting and knowing that for the most part, this is the right thing. I've sort of assessed my current situation. I know my options. I've tried them and I'm choosing this path. I mean, so it sounds like if we zoom the lens out here, we are all going to experience these jolts, these moments of awakening that where kind of a light bulb goes on. And for the first time, we're questioning whether to stay or whether to go in a variety of different contexts. For so many of us, our immediate or knee-jerk reaction is to just blow it up. I just got to hit the eject button, what I often call the nuclear option. And I think during the pandemic, that was so normalized that so many of us did it because everyone else was doing it. So it's like, why not? It's socially acceptable. I can defend that because everyone's doing it now a lot less so. And what you're inviting us to do is say, okay, look, expect these things to happen. There are different contexts. So understand like, what is the context of the jolt that I'm sort of like moving through right now? And maybe at the end of the day, the right option is I'm going to do the bigger disruptive thing, but your first move is not that. Your first move is basically to hold, but not just to sit there and take it, but to sort of say, okay, before I take the reactive path, let me take the responsive path. Let me figure out, let me diagnose what's really happening here. What is happening? What isn't happening here? How true can I get to the facts of this and what am I sort of bringing into it through bias or through cognitive traps or through emotion that's going to color this in a way which justifies something that I want to do that's big and disruptive. But maybe if I give a little time, a little bit more thought, I'm going to see it differently. And then really get clear on who you are, what matters to you, what the benefits hard and soft and what the more subtle benefits are that you do have that ignore to you and whether you think it really would be worth it or better to make a bigger disruptive move. End of the day, you may still do it, but at least there's a more thoughtful, intentional process to move through when a jolt lands on you or in you. Yeah, that's perfectly summarized. I couldn't have said it better. And once you sort of get that process down and how to navigate your way through it, sort of shift your mindset to looking for these jolts, you'll also see in the people close to you, those around you, you'll see when they've got a jolt coming or when they experience it. And you're in this great position because they'll come to you and say, here's what I'm struggling with to say, okay, let's talk through this. And nothing is better than having a sounding board. and so my hope is that as we get this term into more conversations it will allow for better conversations and better decision making when it comes to how we navigate these events yeah and if you develop these skills yourself like you said and then you can support others people close to even who are going through it i mean the ripple effect just on your relationships outside of the workplace your personal relationships it's going to be really positive as well feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation. So in this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? For me to live a good life is a life where on a day to day basis, you know, we experience happiness and good times with those around us. And then we, when we look more deeply at the arc and we see whatever impact we've had, and we said, we're happy with that. For me, that's pretty good. Thank you. Hey, before you go, be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Charles Duhigg about the hidden science of why our best advice often backfires and how to finally feel truly understood by the people you love. Be sure to follow the show wherever you get your podcasts so you don't miss this episode. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app or on YouTube too. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still listening here. Do me a personal favor, a second favor. Share it with just one person. I mean, if you want to share it with more, that's awesome too, but just one person even. Then invite them to talk with you about what you've both discovered, to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter, because that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.