Fiber Expert Says THIS Matters More for Fat Loss… (It's Not Fiber) | Dr. Joanne Slavin

Welcome to the Optimal Protein Podcast. I'm Vanessa Spina. Hello, my friends, and welcome back to the Optimal Protein Podcast. I'm your host, Vanessa Spina, and I am so excited for today's episode. Today, we're joined by Dr. Joanne Slavin, Professor of Food Science and Nutrition at the University of Minnesota. She is one of the most highly cited researchers in nutrition science and a former member of the Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee. Now, Dr. Slavin has authored over 350 scientific publications with decades of research focused on satiety, dietary fiber, protein requirements, carbohydrate quality, and all of this across the lifespan. Now, going into this conversation, I expected that we would be talking a lot about fiber, and we do. But what really surprised me and what I think you're going to find so fascinating is just how strongly Dr. Slavin emphasizes protein as one of the most important nutritional factors when it comes to satiety, fat loss, body composition, and overall health. Throughout this episode, we dive into the science of satiety, how protein and fiber actually work in the body, whether they are additive or synergistic, and what the research really shows when it comes to reducing calorie intake without relying on willpower. We also explore some incredibly important questions around carbohydrate quality, ultra processed foods, and how the dietary guidelines are shaped where the gaps may still exist. This is a very nuanced evidence-based conversation that I think is going to challenge some assumption. We definitely also talk about drug supported weight loss and our mutual concerns about them. As she called it, we are in the middle of a big experiment and neither of us think the results are going to be what people anticipated or wanted. Ultimately, I think this episode will help you better understand how to structure your nutrition for fat loss and body recomposition. I love this episode so much. I know that you'll get a ton from it as well, and I can't wait for you to hear it. So we're going to jump right in after this quick break. All right, friends, before we jump into the episode, which I am so excited about, I wanted to share a very quick update with you all. I received so many messages from listeners over the weekend asking about the launch discount and saying that they didn't get it in time. And I completely understand because sometimes when I announce things like I did on Friday, Maybe you don't listen to that podcast until Sunday. And so you wouldn't know that the discount was ending on Saturday night. So in response to that, I have extended the special launch pricing for the protein-sparing modified fasting library. So if you have been thinking about it, you have one more day to get it at the special pre-order launch discount rate. After that, it will go back to its regular retail price. So the protein spraying modified fasting library is the exact high protein structured approach that I used to lose 14 pounds of body fat while preserving all of my lean mass and muscle and without feeling deprived or constantly hungry. Instead of trying to restrict calories every single day, this system gives you a clear, repeatable structure for the week using high protein, lower energy days combined with maintenance days. So you can create fat loss in a way that actually feels sustainable. So inside the order, you will receive a full high protein recipe library, the digital download instantly so you can access it right away, start familiarizing yourself with how the structure works and the different meals and choosing your favorites. There is a tiered system for protein sparing modified fasting days and maintenance days, how to set your protein targets. Everything is explained to you. There's a grocery list and planning tools. And you will also receive a printed version of the library shipped out to you in the next one to two weeks, as well as three months of free membership in our protein sparing modified fasting library, private community, which has been my favorite aspect of working on this whole system and launching this new book is just being in the community group with you all and seeing pictures of what meals you've made, which are your favorites, how delicious and satisfying you're finding everything. And there's been so much positive feedback and it is just so much fun to be in there with you all. Also, I have been receiving your feedback and creating new recipes. So I just added four new recipes to the library over the weekend. And that was this protein cinnamon raisin bread. I have that in quotations. It tastes just like the cinnamon raisin bread that I used to eat when I was growing up with butter. And I definitely have that on maintenance days, but you can enjoy the cinnamon raisin bread on protein-spraying modified fasting days with low-fat cream cheese or other toppings. I have a new protein tortilla, so I added a breakfast burrito and also a chicken burrito for dinner. And you can make any variation of burritos that you like with this protein tortilla, which is so delicious, soft, just like a flour tortilla. And it's so easy to make. And I also added a flatbread recipe, which I topped as an example with smoked salmon and cream cheese, like a lox bagel and fresh tomatoes and arugula and capers. But you could pretty much make any kind of flatbread recipe that would fit into the library because there's a lot of sandwich recipes. You could use any of those like the club sandwich or any variation that you like on the flatbread. So I am adding new recipes. I'm actually building out an extension pack right now of recipes, but I'm adding new recipes. And that is something that comes with the group support, which is not a coaching group. It's just a community support group for those of us who are interested in this high protein way of life. and also dieting in a way that is effective and efficient, where you feel satisfied from all your meals and you don't feel hungry or like you're suffering or that your meals don't have any taste or flavor. Everything in the library is delicious and very, very satisfying. Many of you have been telling me you have a hard time finishing all the meals and I completely understand because they are designed that way to maximize satiety. And when you're doing these protein-sparing modified fasting days, like one, two, or three days a week, the body gets into ketosis. And so the ketones and the high protein together pair to make this incredibly powerful satiety combination. So if you've been waiting, you have one more day to go check it out, see if you would like to take advantage of the special pre-launch pricing and you can use the link in the show notes. It also has the discount, which will be automatically applied for you at checkout, or you can just go to ketogenicgirl.com and use the code PSMFLaunchDiscount70. That's PSMFLaunchDiscount70 to take advantage for one more day and save big on investing in your health and having this drug free alternative to effective body recomposition, maximizing fat loss while protecting lean mass and muscle. So head over to ketogenicgirl.com and use the code PSMF, launch discount 70 to save. All right, now let's get into today's episode. Well, welcome to the Optimal Protein Podcast, Dr. Slavin. How are you doing this morning? I'm doing well. Glad to be on. I'm very excited that you were able to make the time to join us and really looking forward to doing a deep dive into some of your fascinating research and unpacking some of your methodology and results. Now, you've published extensively over the years on dietary fiber and satiety and also contributed to work on protein requirements. If you step back, looking at the totality of the evidence, do you see fat loss primarily as a protein problem, a fiber problem, or potentially a combination of both? Interesting question. And this is the problem we always run into in nutrition is that we eat food and it has everything in it, right? So then we say, okay, what is the most important thing? I always have to go back to fiber because I believe fiber, if you look at the data on fiber, people that go out and try to eat high fiber foods tend to lose weight. And it is, is it any type of particular thing? Can we add fiber and lose weight? Maybe not. But to me, I think the fiber message and the good thing about the fiber message, too, is it's a positive message. So often we say, don't do this, don't do this in nutrition. But when we give people the fiber message, the fiber message puts them into a lot of plant foods that have other nutrients in it. But it also helps them feel fuller and it's kind of slows down eating. I mean, this, you know, part of my right now, I'm on a sabbatical working on processing of food. And I think that processing is essentially a proxy for, you know, foods that are easily consumed in huge quantities, right? So if we can slow you down in any way and still make you enjoy eating, that's the fiber message. So I guess having been in the fiber field for a really long time and people get, you know, I think it becomes very prescriptive and people are like, oh, I haven't done my fiber today. So I feel terrible. It's like, no, every day, if you make a better choice for breakfast, lunch, or dinner, and include things that have more fiber, it's definitely going to have some benefits as far as weight loss, and also just laxation. It always goes there. You know, people are like, when they're on low-calorie diets, they tend to have problems with gut health, and so fiber can help with that, too. Well, that's a perfect segue into my next question, because one of your most cited papers or articles was one that you authored called Fiber and Prebiotics, the Mechanisms and Health Benefits. and you mentioned how higher intakes of fiber tend to be linked with lower body weights. So can you walk us through some of the mechanisms behind this association and why there's such a strong correlation between these higher fiber intakes and lower body weights? Absolutely, and I appreciate you finding that paper. That's kind of the beginning of open access. So I have just tons of papers that are pretty interesting that are held tightly in libraries and people can't get to them. So I really appreciate that that paper is available to people and they can go get it. They don't have to have a library subscription and a paywall to get through to it. I find if I go back to everything we found in fiber and looking at different ways, satiety studies, long-term clinical studies, and then just looking at people that are kind of regular eating. And that's one thing I'm really happy about now we see a lot more interest in consumers of basic, we all do experiments on ourself every day, right? And so what people find some of these studies where people are put on, hey, you need to eat these higher fiber diets, they tend to eat about 10% fewer calories, and then they lose weight, which is it because calories do count, right? They really do count. So for sure, there's this mechanism that higher fiber, whether it's an apple versus apple juice that, you know, with the same number of calories, you feel a lot fuller too with things that have more fiber. And one of our interesting studies that was done a while ago was published in Appetite was really this idea of what if we give you a breakfast that is a shake and it is we've controlled for nutrients, controlled for calories, all of the macronutrients are the same and there's a fiber added to it. And so you're going to come in and have that. And then in contrast to that, you're going to come in and have a real breakfast. So here's your real breakfast, same number of calories, same number of macronutrients, same amount of fiber. And that breakfast is steel cut oats, blueberries, nuts, and you eat that. And then what do we look at? We look at gastric emptying, we look at gut signal, but we also look at how full do you feel and how much do you want to eat at lunch after that. And in that, when you can totally control for nutrients, so everything's controlled, the fiber is the same, what happens is the real breakfast, people feel fuller and they don't have as much of a need and it stays in their stomach longer and it stays in their gut longer. And so when you think of in a way, the GLP drugs that are on the market now, people are all like, wow, this is exciting. It truly is. But if you go back for the last 30 years, we've shown that higher fiber diets actually affect a lot of these gut hormones that tell your brain that actually I'm, I'm don't need to eat way. That's exactly what sprung to my mind when you said that. You know, what is it? People are like, okay, what's the mechanism? It's happening all the way through your brain and your gut are communicating. And they're saying, hey, actually, you're enjoying this real big breakfast that you're eating. You're maybe talking to the person next to you. And it's not like a refuel. Hey, I'm done. Let's go on. And I think part of it when people travel to they realize that other countries, people spend a lot more time enjoying their food, slowing down, you know, putting some work into preparation of food. You know, there's that whole behavioral side that I think in basic nutrition, you know, I'm a dietician too. So we pretty much overanalyze everything, figure out number of grams of this, number of grams of this. But in the end, it is a very behavioral thing that why don't I need to eat or have a snack because I feel full and I feel like I've enjoyed a meal, you know, that I've enjoyed this experience and I'm feeling pretty good. I don't need to go grab a high calorie snack. So what mechanism is most important when I get that question? But that's why in a way, at first, this food processing, elder processed foods, oh, it's just a proxy for junk food. And okay, who cares, right? Whatever it is, but people, when foods are so available to them, and they're not that satisfying, even, And, you know, we have to realize that however we can help consumers eat more fiber, for sure we want them to do it, but also just enjoy their food and slow down and make sure that real food is what they're consuming and things that have importance to them, too. And you can look me up, and I definitely want to make this very clear that I work with a lot of food companies and people are like, you work with the carbohydrate lovers and the carbohydrate aiders. How can you work for both of them? I just think it's really important that people are successful. So when when all of this interest in keto diets, and oh, it's terrible, carbohydrates are, are the enemy, they are for certain people, you know, so this idea of tailoring your diet of who you are. And it's really sad when people fail for weight, you know, this weight idea, so they go through a cycle, it works for a while. And I'm very concerned with these new drugs that that's the way we work in the US. It's like, hey, this new drug works. Great. It's like, I kind of think you're going to have to take that the rest of your life. You're like, really? Really? Wait a second. So getting food, the nice thing about food is that every day you get many choices, chances to have this amazing diet that first of all, you enjoy it, but it really is completely linked to your health. You know, your health. So sure, there's drugs, we can bring those in as we need them. But your diet is your first thing. So making sure that we do the best we can, as you mentioned, is am I a protein lady or a fiber lady? Well, I'm really both that to me, the one nutrient you need to get is protein. So absolutely, we want to make sure you get protein. And, you know, that really goes with the keto things that if I need to get rid of calories, the extra calories I'm going to get rid of are carbs. They got to go. So, you know, everybody has to kind of figure it out for themselves. But if you can stay in maintenance rather than up and down, that's where we want you to be. Yes, I agree with so many points that you made there. And yeah, as I was saying, the GLP-1s sprung to mind because I definitely think there are a lot of mechanisms that are being sort of reproduced with these drugs that we can actually induce naturally, especially when you're combining protein and fiber, which, you know, protein is its own GLP-1. agonists, not to the same degree. What's really interesting to me is the power of sort of combining these things. And I know you've also done research on protein, as you mentioned, you're both. So there was a classic study you co-authored with, it was VanderWaal et al. And it was showing that egg-based higher protein breakfast increased satiety and reduced energy intake later in the day compared to cereal-based breakfasts. So how do you balance what is more powerful for reducing total daily calorie intake, protein-driven satiety or fiber-driven satiety? And I don't mean to hit them against each other, but I'm just curious about the mechanisms that are invoked in both of them. I think the combination of them together is probably you know, the best thing for anyone really seeking satiety. Absolutely. And if you go back, some of the studies we did back in the day with satiety, comparing bean and beef and comparing egg to carbohydrate, it's whole food studies are really hard to do. And they're very hard to get published. People are like, oh, you didn't control for this. Well, we really couldn't. We did our best. But I always lead with protein. You know, I started out as an ex-phys person and I still was the most important, get up, right? You got to get up, got to sleep, got to do all these other things. We can't just put diet in or drugs in and do anything. So first of all, get protein. And the advantage of animal protein is it's higher quality and there's more in it and fewer calories. So this is when we have a paper we did on plant proteins and plant proteins. When you're eating plant proteins, you're also eating fibers. You can't really separate that out. OK, both of them are there. but in these studies what you find is protein really in and of itself has a lot of satiation I feel fuller you know and we all know that you know like if we think of Thanksgiving dinner anything where we eat a ton of animal protein it's like hey I don't need to eat for a while I feel really full and so a lot of the studies on what is it more important fiber than protein we have found that the combination is the best if you put them together that is the best but to try to run them across the other one across the other you really can't because you can't design a study that way and I do think that was the the advantage of the study we did with the the beverage that was completely controlled fiber the same protein the same as far as numbers and the putting it in real food that it might just be volume you know there's a lot of data now on just the volume of food you eat has a huge advantage why eating an apple it doesn't have that many nutrients in it but I feel you know I feel fuller and an apple a day probably does keep the doctor away and that is it fiber it's more than that it's kind of volume of food so I find that that so often too there's this big push and this is where the people are like hey who are you working for today and it's like hey I'm just working for the consumer I want everybody to be healthier I not really you know and you know as far as funding for research too I think this is the frustrating thing People are like oh that was paid for by the egg board or that was paid for by the meat board Well the government they not going to fund all of this research. So the kind of research consumers want, a lot of times it has to be funded by the pea board or the soy board or anything even to get the studies out there. But in those studies, when I find what is it that makes people feel full, a lot of it is volume. you know this idea of so if i'm eating always and this is where we get into this problems with pasta and rice and potatoes that don't have a ton of fiber in them but they have a lot of volume they hold a lot of water and it's kind of the base of what we can all the proteins expensive it's not so sustainable so kind of balancing the sustainability of the earth and our sustainability and you know how to make sure that we cover all those bases. So that's why I never, you know, first, as far as a macronutrient, you got to get protein first. It's the most important thing. And if you get it from animal protein, there's going to be more protein in it and it's going to be higher quality as far as the amino acids you're going to get. So this is where, you know, I grew up on a farm. I still own a farm and people say, Hey, all you do is push animal agriculture. It's like, I would try, really try to keep it in balance. But the average person, when we look in the U.S., about 75% of our protein does come from animal products. So we can't really, to go to a vegan diet is a real shift. And that's the nice thing. We can put these diets together for everybody, just depending on what they want. But sometimes when we have really strict rules that we have to get rid of all animal protein, kind of hard and expensive to put those diets together. Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. One of my favorite lines, Dr. Don Lehman, he says, we're already doing a plant-based diet and look at where it's gotten us. So moving more towards that is maybe not the best direction. And yeah, I love this concept of combining the two. Just anecdotally, when I was on my fat loss journey, I met with this nutritionist at one point because I couldn't seem to figure it out on my own, even though I'm trained in nutrition. And she said, you need more fiber. So she recommended these fiber bars to me. And I didn't realize it at the time, but they were full of sugar and all kinds of stuff and not a lot of protein, but they were called fiber something bars. And I would start eating them and they made me so hungry. I would end up eating the whole box like per day and it ended up being quite a lot of calories. So I didn't get anywhere with that approach. And I know that's sort of maybe an ultra processed version of fiber. So I definitely want to talk about the different types of fiber that people can focus on? Because I know that like in your 2013 systematic review on fiber and satiety, it showed that fiber can reduce subsequent food intake. And, you know, results were somewhat variable depending on the type and the dose. So what types of fiber, if we're talking about like viscous, fermentable, whole food versus isolated, seem to have the strongest effect on appetite and fat loss. No, that's, I'm glad that, you know, everybody needs to have a journey and people that are dieticians, as a dietician, people assume, oh, it's really easy for you. And you're born a certain way, you know, and as somebody that started an exercise of very big people from big people, I find there's just so much fat shaming, but it's really important for health. So we're always stuck in this middle ground. So, you know, I believe that if we look at the data that's out there, generally, it's this volumetric stuff that works the best. So this is why a lot of these new fibers, and these are prebiotic fibers, they affect the gut microbiome. So I'm not, I don't want to bash them. But on the other hand, we can put a lot of them into food, and they tend not to affect satiety much. And they might even make us, you know, this issue of if I can put it into food, and it tastes, and I'll go back to a really old study we did that where we put in trying to get the right amount, but a very large amount of inulin, which is one of these prebiotic fibers, fructo-oligosaccharide type fiber. We made it into a quart of ice cream. And it's a great fat replacer and it makes great ice cream. And that is how we delivered it to our subjects. So these were young men. It's a small study, but what we found is people loved it. It tasted like really, But did it do what we expected fiber to do? It really didn't. It didn't lower blood lipids. It didn't affect glucose. It actually kind of went up. And people didn't feel any fuller. But a couple people had some significant gas, but a lot of people were really happy on it. So I would say in general, if you can't see it and you don't know you're eating fiber, it's not going to have much of an effect on making you feel fuller. Some of these products are actually, they're used a lot in the food industry. as if you look at gums and to make fake ice cream, you know, and if going back, you're too young to remember all this, but we always go through this in nutrition. So we're like, okay, fat is terrible. Let's make lots of carbs and get those carbs into the fake fat, whether it's cream cheese or anything else, we have to use all these additives, which are gums and fibers to get it in. It's like, okay and then you eat that fake stuff and you're like kind of like i don't know it tastes like cream cheese a bit but not really and why bother right like why bother and other countries have never gone through this and if you go over to france and other countries they never had a collect don't eat any cholesterol it's like why would we do that never get after fat that saturated fat is public enemy number one it really doesn't help people's health so i think that in fiber if you can't see it and you don't know you're eating real fiber, same thing in whole grains. You know, if here's a whole grain bread, it's got nuts, it's got seeds in it. You can only eat one piece. It's like, hey, I feel really full after this one piece. I'm good, right? And I'll put anything on it, peanut butter, avocado, whatever, cheese, I'm going to do that, butter, whatever I decide, I'm going to put a little of that and I feel full. And that's going to be mostly insoluble fiber. So cellulose is things I have to chew, right? So that's kind of where we end up. And still, sure, I want people, you know, the fiber recommendation is based on less cardiovascular disease. So that's kind of pretty good data, especially for epidemiological data. We get about, you know, 14, 15, we should be at 28. So there is this huge fiber gap. So I, you know, do I like putting it in pop snack foods, I would prefer you got it another way, but most people don't. So that's okay. I'm committed to that. But to think that all fibers are the same. And if you get 28 grams of inulin in your diet, why, you know, that's not what we're looking. And part of it too, is our idea. And that's where people have been just freaking out about the diet guidelines. And okay, there's things in it I don't like either, but the focus on real food, real food, real food is good, right? That's where meet people where they are. You can't, you know, it's not met food is met. I don't want you to just eat this shake with a bunch of crap in it. I really want you to enjoy your food, get connected to your food, make sure you can cook and have these wonderful food experiences with your family and friends. That's what it's all about. And nutrition comes along. I'm a dietician. I can look at your diet and say, hey, you're low in iron. I want to make sure that I get iron into you or calcium at different parts of the life cycle. So totally committed to that. But as far as fiber, if you can't see it and you don't think you're doing it, it's probably not going to have much of an effect on how full you feel for sure. Yeah. Well, thank you for explaining that. You know, when you talked about the breakfast oatmeal, I kept thinking about if you just added, you know, a scoop of whey protein isolate in there. For me personally, that would keep me much, much fuller than just oatmeal. And I know you also mentioned how people are different, but if I eat just carbohydrates with a minimal amount of protein, I feel hungry an hour or two later, even if it has a lot of fiber in it. And maybe you see ranges and different responses from people, but I really find the combination of that. And of course, in the real food context, as you were saying. Now, I know in your work on protein and fiber together, like when you combined eggs and fiber at breakfast, you saw improvements in satiety and the glycemic response. So do you think that combining protein and fiber has a synergistic effect on appetite regulation? Yeah, absolutely. You know, and we've tried to do different studies with trying to control this, and it is always hard to balance everything. So we're not exactly balancing it. But And sure, people can eat eggs, they can get protein in different ways. But whey protein, it has got the most data too for athletes, other groups. For having a concentrated protein, it is really high quality. And it tends to, part of the issue with some of the plant proteins that are up, they don't taste that good. And they don't have really high quality protein in them because they can't. So whey is kind of in the perfect. And it's like, hey, do you work for the whey people? I really don't. But when I look at the data, one of my students just did a master's thesis looking at whey protein and what's out there. And it's pretty impressive because they have actually published quite a bit of data too. And sure, you don't have to take it as a protein supplement. You can get it in food, you know, real food. Okay, great. I'm with you there. But for people that need extra protein, it really is probably got the most data that they've looked at. And also it's a very high quality protein. So and tends to go into products really well, too. So where people like if you want to put it in a beverage, you want to put it in a snack food, you know, this practical side. I have now I have three kids and I have two grandkids now. And, you know, as a parent, too, it's like, hey, we're going to improve our diet. But if it doesn't get eaten at all, we haven't accomplished anything. So I think some of the kid products that are out there, what kind of protein would we want to use in them? You know, whey protein is really high quality. So, you know, and part of it, too, is just people's lifestyle. We have to be clear that, you know, people that work two jobs or commute don't have time to produce real food. So that's why we don't want to bash processed foods so much just because for the average person, And they aren't going to be able to maybe not have time to make an egg for breakfast. And sure, they're cut arounds and ways to get there. But on the other hand, if there are products out there that have high quality protein, sure, it's more expensive. So we don't want to over consume it. But high quality protein way would be on the top of my list of what to add in. And it's got the most meat up. Yes, I know you've, you know, you mentioned how plant proteins have fiber in them. However, I do think there are some drawbacks. People are starting to see some independent research groups. I'm sure you saw this in the last year who were just looking at pulling, 10 or 20 of the different protein powders from the store aisles. And they found that the ones that were whey protein source definitely had much lower levels in general when it came to contaminants like heavy metals and that kind of thing, whereas the plant proteins have higher levels of contaminants because they're from the soil. And then there's also research showing you need about double of the serving to achieve similar rates of muscle protein synthesis. So I definitely think we're also on the cusp of new research showing the ratios of the different amino acids in relationship to each other in the higher quality proteins are more aligned with our physiology and what we require for, you know, optimizing muscle growth and retention. So I definitely concur with you. I don't think you work for big way or anything like that. I do work for everybody. So people look me up. I do because I, you know, I like to get my students funded and get them out into the world. But I think the other thing that's really important, and there haven't been a lot of people that focus on this, is some of these plant proteins have saponins, they have lectins, and who works on that? You know, like all of these things that, and as you talked about heavy metals and other things that we like, wait a second, who works on that? A lot of times in nutrition, that's one of the advantages of this interest in ultra-processed foods. What gets labeled? How do we do our labeling? How do we approve products? All of these things, there's just a ton of interest. So a lot of these plant proteins, I think the heavy metals and this gets into organic. I always, you know, having grown up on a farm, still in the agriculture business, it's a tough business to be in. But a lot of times organic products may have more heavy metals. You know, people have to make choices and this is we're all OK. We have to balance. There's always risk benefit. We get up in the morning, we eat something. This is what's good about it. This might be negative, but we have a really safe food supply. I feel good about it, but we have to defend it like crazy. So I appreciate you bringing up the heavy metals in some of these products because it doesn't get tested. Now, why would it? And if you think of going, this is the same thing with getting fiber out of things. Why not start with something that has a lot of fiber? So oatmeal, whole grain, vegetables, pulses, beans. And so I work a lot in the area of peas and beans because they have a lot of fiber. but they also have a lot of these anti-nutrients that really people haven't focused on in a long time and so if we isolate those we really have to start saying hey do we have any safety issues on this and if i have it twice a week it's not but if it's my primary protein source you know it's exposure and i've got to think about my exposure and i i think especially pregnancy lactation kids You know, you're much more got to be really hyper vigilant about these things because nobody's really looking out for you but yourself. Yes. To go on a complete swing and say, hey, I'm going to only eat this one kind of plant protein. Don't do that. That's a bad idea. Friends, I have been using my Tone Lux Sapphire Red Light Therapy Panel daily, and it has honestly become one of my non-negotiables. 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I'm nine months pregnant and I'm so scrupulous with the proteins that I eat because I eat them every day and any protein source like if I have a protein bar or protein powder I have to have you know certified to be heavy metal free and the same with our children because they we have two other toddlers and they consume a ton of protein products too so I love that there's more and more of these products available, but you really have to be conscientious that they have that third-party testing to make sure something that you're consuming every single day is not loaded up with other potentially harmful nutrients or anti-nutrients. Now, just a fun question. If you were to compare two meals, one has high protein, moderate fiber. The other is moderate protein, high fiber, which do you think would lead to a lower calorie intake across the day and why? I would definitely go with high protein. I mean, fiber is important, but it isn't going to balance out low. You know, to me, that's especially when people need to lose weight. Now we look at the recommendations for protein. So the acceptable macronutrient distribution, sorry, you're getting a lecture today, but acceptable macronutrient distribution range for protein is 10 to 35% of your calories, right? So if I on a thousand calorie diet cause I have to lose weight I have to be on a high protein diet Just do the numbers It has to be So I don have space for extra fat extra carbs So you got to lead with protein always. And if the best thing is to go with high quality protein, because that way it's going to be right away utilized to build protein, you're not going to be short in amino acid or two that you have to get in a certain way. So I would fiber is important, but I would definitely lead with protein. Okay. I wasn't sure which direction you would go. I actually thought you might go for the higher fiber, moderate protein. So yeah, we're definitely aligned there. Now we touched on this a little bit earlier, but there was some observational research showing that higher fiber intake is associated with lower body weight and less vacuane over time. And you mentioned that in a couple of your earlier papers. So do you believe that that's a causal relationship or is fiber just a marker of healthier eating patterns? Yeah, that's a tough one, because even arguing is fiber a nutrient because it doesn't really fit, you know, it's never really fit. So when I get into those arguments, it's like I have to believe it's a nutrient because it's on the label. So but it is not digested and absorbed like any other nutrient. So it's kind of out in this, how do we deal with you as a fiber thing? And you know, it's really hard to collect data on just because we have the NHANES data set in the U.S., which is really good. But generally, people don't eat much fiber. So a lot of times we have to go to other countries where people try to eat more fiber. And this gets me in, you know, I spend a lot of time in whole grains. And whole grains is really, here's a food that it's in. There are certain grains that are higher in fiber, and we can argue definitions. And this is where we always end up in nutrition. It's like, okay, what exactly? How much fiber? And so trying to figure this one out. But long ago, this study was published probably 25 years ago, the Michelle Effort study, just looking at the data we could pull together. And this is maybe AI will help us get to this number sooner. People tended on high fiber diets, ate about 10% fewer calories just without even caring. Right. So I think that kind of thing is if you incorporate high fiber foods into your diet, you tend to just eat and maybe you know like it's the volumetrics it's chewing it's all these other mechanisms I don't need to eat as many calories so you know trying to do that type of research tends to be hard but I think it's pretty clear and and I I was just at a meeting out in DC and Barbara Rolls was there who I've known forever and she's the big believer in volumetrics and it really is linked to fiber you know volumetrics usually what's holding water it's fiber so you know i and for a consumer to try to make it not scientific you know i think this is the whole thing on health processing and you know it's like too much science too much science but i think consumers now have interest in making it real as best we can and say these are the studies we do this is our research support but some of her data is really fascinating that you know just in volumetrics if you just control for volumetrics and don't worry about nutrients and obsess about that that if there's this volume of food, people tend to stop and feel fuller. And they eat, you know, the calories, they can eat much fewer calories and still say, hey, I'm done. And so it is, this is what do vegetables do? A lot of vegetables, pulses, beans, peas, it's just a lot more food. So I'm fuller, you know, so is it the fiber? But I think your point is really important is that we want to get the protein in first, right? So we don't, you know, even though you're losing weight, we want you to lose weight that's important but if you have this food and this is where the people on these new drugs are they really have you know lots of gi problems but they tend not to like protein and so for them i think a lot of these protein tailored solutions to them we got to get your protein in right away so sorry can't have that donut we got to get your protein in and i know it doesn't taste good but let's think of ways to get it in so i believe in their case the fiber is important, but the protein is more important. So let's make sure we figure out a way, especially if you're going to be on these drugs the rest of your life, we got to get this figured out. Because to me, you're basically wasting. It's not that different than bariatric surgery when you look at the data that's out there. And we're doing an experiment in real time. We're really not. Oh gosh. We couldn't be more on the same page. I mean, I've looked at all of the studies that we have so far and we're seeing 40 to 50% of the weight being lost being muscle from lean mass. Yes, from muscle, which is a very high percentage. And then there's several recent studies that have come out in the last several months showing within 15 to 18 months of cessation, all the weight is regained. And we know it's not muscle that's being regained. So I have a lot of concerns that this is being looked at as this miracle drug. But what happens when everyone goes off them and everyone has all this weight regain, they've lost fat and muscle, they've only regained fat, and all of these people end up worse off from a metabolic standpoint, a body composition standpoint, much higher body fat percentage. That's actually going to put us in a much worse position as a society. So I try to focus still on drug-free approaches where we can really generate very high degrees of satiety. And unfortunately, I think a lot of the people who are taking these drugs are people who are not prioritizing protein and are probably not eating much fiber. And so they're not changing those dietary patterns either. And like you said, they're going to have to stay on the drugs for life if they want to, you know, maintain their results. So yeah, I'm very curious to see what's going to happen, but I have a lot of concerns about what the outcome might be. So I think it's good to get the message out to protein, protein, protein, because we don't have a controlled study. Hey, here's this many people that are on the drug. Yeah, we're going to randomize you. You guys are going to get high quality protein. You guys aren't. We just will never have that. You know, it's kind of real time research, but we know the outcome's not going to be good. We are, you know, and a lot of consumers who don't know where protein is, you know, they just assume a lot of times they'll say, okay, here's, you know, fruits and vegetables are good for me. Therefore, that's what I'm going to eat. I'm going to make sure they're fresh when actually guys know a lot of the canned and frozen ones are actually, it's going to be easier for you to get those into your diet and they're going to, you know, there's some kind of control to heavy metal. So I, you know, just, I feel bad for consumers too, because whenever they think, okay, I'm doing something for my health, I'm losing weight. Okay. We want you, that's good, but we got to help you on the nutrition side. And you typically, you know, this is the hard thing about careers in nutrition and dietetics. Most people don't have access to a dietician or somebody to really help them. And that's what's, it is so nice to have all these new ways of communicating about nutrition to get information out to consumers. That is really important. And, but not to give up too. So often when people get on these drugs, they just say, Hey, I really can't eat any of those high protein foods that I can't do it. It's like, well, in that case, I'm going to tell you to be on a supplement or something that is high quality protein that you can eat and try to do it once a day or sometime, you know, Whatever works for you, it's just really important to maintain your muscle. We know that. We don't want you to be deficient in total protein quantity or quality. So therefore, it's going to be an animal protein because you're not going to eat that many calories. So I'm going to try to get you the highest quality animal protein I can. Exactly. And that's what the most recent research is showing when people are under caloric deficits, that the protein piece becomes that much more important to protect lean mass. It's really interesting because in low-carb communities, you mentioned keto earlier, but even I personally do a low-carb approach, which is higher in protein. And I love carbohydrates, but people who are in the low-carb space tend to eat the higher fiber carbs because those are the ones that are lower. in total carbohydrate. And so that can really be helpful in terms of avoiding a lot of processed carbohydrate. Now you did, you co-authored a 2021 paper defining carbohydrate quality. So for communities like this, or for anyone who wants to focus on fiber density, whole food structure, glycemic response, what do you think are the best foods to focus on if we're really aiming for high quality carbohydrate. Yeah, no, I appreciate you looking at that paper because right there we tried to say, hey, these are the recommendations. So we have an RDA for carbohydrates. It's 130 grams a day. That's nothing, right? That's like, that is just because your brain needs some carbohydrate, nerves. Yeah, we know there's a requirement for it, but that's nothing. So you can really go, you know, I work a lot with the keto people. And so right away, you can take carbs out of your diet, then where do you run into problems? Well, we think fiber is important, right? So here's a fiber recommendation. Okay, the fiber recommendation is, you know, on the nutrition facts, 28 grams a day, I already said most people only get 14. So there's some space to do there. But if you tried to get that with food, generally, that's going to come along with a lot of starch and a lot of sugar, right so you know this is where people like hey do you hate fruit well i don't hate fruit but i'm saying that a lot like a banana is a lot of calories and it's a lot of starch and for a lot of people it may not fit into their diet if they're on a low carb diet so just saying fruits are good vegetables are good beans and peas are good you got to do the math because they probably have too much carb in them you know and then we what are the other recommendation whole grains and really if you go on the new pyramid, what does the pyramid say? Really, the only thing that's left on the bottom are whole grains. If you're going to eat grains, you know, pick them and make sure you get some fiber and whole grains along the way. So it's a bit radical. And then people say, well, wait a second, the acceptable macronutrient range for carbohydrates is 45 to 65. All right, why is that? Because there's that much space, you know, there is that much space. But when you're reducing calories, you're going to take those out, right? They have to go out. And I think as for people that are diabetic, glycemic index can be helpful to, you know, as ways of net carbs, there's lots of ways of doing the math for consumers. And I think it's really what meeting them where they are, rather than saying, this is stupid, this doesn't work. It's like, no, because diet is so complicated, but it really shouldn't be, you know, so if you're getting rid of carbs, a lot of times, if you think, okay, here's a keto way to do this, sure, I need some fiber, but I can get that in different ways. So rather than picking these things that have tons of carb, I have to get rid of those calories. So I really have to drive those out, however works for me. Yes, I also like the concept of earning your carbs and having like a per meal threshold. So, you know, for those individuals who are more active, they're able to sort of earn more carbohydrate in the diet without running into issues. Whereas if you're speaking about the sedentary individuals who are not moving much and then have a high carbohydrate intake, you know, I think that's sort of where I think the new pyramid is sort of aiming to to get people focused more on like protein, minimizing those processed carbs, unless you're a more active individual. I know they probably haven't spelled that out, but it makes a big difference, right? In terms of someone who's very active doing, you know, regular exercise five, six days a week, just moving a lot in general, carbohydrate intake can have a little bit more, more wiggle room. Yeah, no, I think that's the best way. I teach a lot of nutrition classes. So getting people to earn it to me is really important. So if I need to walk these calories off, do I really want it? Right. And so a lot of times people don't have a concept of how many calories are. It's like, what? Now, even a lot of fast food meals, there's a thousand calories. So if you won't walk that off, that's a really long hike. And if you've eaten that, you won't be able to walk it off anyway. So I think in the exercise side, for sure, carbs are important. But also, there's some really interesting data that whether it's endurance athletes or strength athletes, they can do pretty well on high fat diet, especially the people that are doing the 50K things. Backpackers, a lot of times, if you're carrying your food, you want fat because you need the calories. So it's that one size never fits all. This is the problem in nutrition that we look at you, okay, your age, what you're doing, and we try to help you put together a diet. But if you don't put it into your everyday, to me, the behavioral piece is so important. You know, going on and off stuff, we know once people gain weight, they gain fat and they lose muscle. So number one, we don't want you to lose muscle. And as people get older, you're losing it anyway. Despite what you do, you're going to be losing it. So really important to put protein first, right? Let's say we need you to have high quality protein and it's, it is a calorie source, but it is the most important calorie source. So manage that first, make sure you get it. And then those simple carbs kind of have to go, you know, for most people, you just don't have space. And if you need them, you're going to have to, I think that's a good message behaviorally for people. Like I didn't really appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. It's not worth it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mostly focus on, especially, you know, with our family meals and everything, we focus on beans. We love beans. Lentils have like the fiber, they have a little bit of protein and carbohydrate and all the vegetables, like especially the fiber rich ones. And I will have a banana like I did today before my resistance training workout, you know, because I need a little boost. Like I'm in the third trimester. My energy level is like starting to go downhill quickly. And I felt like I needed it to help me have a more powerful workout. But I definitely am not consuming bananas. Like on days I'm not exercising. Well, and you know how many calories are in it. So I think a lot of times people that don't do any exercise at all say, okay, I'm having a fruit. That's great. Well, yeah, we want you to eat more fruit, but you have to balance the calories out. Yes. You know, it's if you eat the whole thing, it's a lot of calories. And, you know, it is this is a lot of our work on snacking. I really appreciate some of my friends that said, hey, let's work on snacking because, you know, when should you eat? How often should you eat? Those data is really hard to get. You know, it's hard to say exactly. But I think for kids, for sure, they need to snack. And for during pregnancy, you need to snack. And those are just part of your budget. You know, like those are not gimme's, hey, have candy bar, you know, like, no, no, no, don't think about it that way. But it's, you know, and like in the banana, that's the perfect time. This is the snack I needed at this time. I know my body, right? That's the way people have to, you know, it's really important for you to take responsibility for that and know how important it is. Yes. Now, you've written about ultra processed foods and their role in nutrition research. So do you think that ultra processed foods undermines satiety, even if macros like protein and nutrients like fiber are matched? Yeah, you know, this is the trying. I've spent tons of my life coming up with definitions just to do, you know, being on the dietary guidelines, I was on 2010. So from 2008 to 2010, we did all these reviews of data out there. And back then, 2008, we were trying to come up with the definitions of processing, you know, minimally processed, you know, just because there is a great process, the dietary guidelines, all this input comes in and people have a lot of questions then. And in a food science and nutrition department, generally people aren't very interested in how their food gets processed. It's like, I don't care. Consumers care now. So I'm very happy about that. I believe that part of the problem is we have to agree on some definitions, you know, just because of helping consumers. And if there's going to be labels that says this is a Nova 4, well, nobody wants to eat a Nova 4, right? And if everything that's out there is a Nova 4 and people are like, I don't want to eat that because that's unhealthy. So to me, it's appropriate processing minimally, you know, for each of these, whether it's grains, meats, dairy, and food safety, number one, you know, I got it, you know, so this kind of balancing the risk benefit of processing, it's very tough right now. And I believe that FDA will come out with some regs on, you know, appropriate processing, because a lot of consumers, especially ones that are making all of their own products, you know, like having, you know, canning things, making things yourself, food safety, incredibly important. So processing just because it's raw or natural doesn't mean it's safe. So there's just so much space there and so much potential, especially with kids. You know, I, some of this new infant formula and people making it themselves, it's like, oh no, don't do it, right? There's just too much risk. And I appreciate that you care enough to care. But on the other hand, I just freak out thinking, you know, there's so much potential damage there that can be done that we have to protect you. And that's kind of the government really has to give us our, and you know, it's America, we can make our choices. So I'm glad that people care about processing because that way it says, hey, I care where my food comes from. That helps me as a farmer and somebody that's involved in the food industry. And I think that, you know, there will be good things come from it. But I believe that nutrients are still really important. And this is why people are like, oh, nutrients don't matter. It's like, no, no, nutrients really do matter. But these other metrics for evaluating the diet, they're really important too. So and even some of the studies that we've been trying to do. And that's why I went back to that study we did that was really, here's a liquid diet and here's a real diet. We know there's differences. You know, we have lots of data from before that how we put the food together. And so if it's totally ultra processed, obviously, we're not going to feel as full. And we don't want you to eat that all the time. We want you to eat real food that's appropriately processed. So it's safe, though. So I think that getting that middle ground is that nuance there is very tough. Yeah, it's like, hey, you go out and push ultra processed foods. Well, no, that's not my gig right now. I'm trying to manage it so the next Dietary Guidelines Committee, we can come up with and help consumers so they don't freak out. Something they've been giving their kids they think is healthy, all of a sudden it's like, hey, this is a terrible food. It's like, eh, not that simple. Well, your 2025 review on protein and amino acid requirements sort of highlighted some of the gaps in the evidence base. But I'm curious what your opinion was. We touched on it a little bit in the interview, but the new dietary protein recommendations were actually much more in line with the current body of scientific evidence, especially on suggesting anywhere from 1.2 to 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram per day, you know, much higher than the former like 0.8 grams of protein per kg, which were thought of as sort of an allowance. I think a lot of people feared going over that amount but there a lot of different populations that require higher protein people who are growing people who are building muscle people who are stressed or recovering from illness or people who are older dealing with anabolic resistance So do you see the current new recommendations as well supported? And what issues you mentioned, just looking at the entire recommendations, what things do you think maybe we're missing or need still some more evidence? Yeah, you know, it's that paper that we published, it kind of fits in a lot of ways. So I'll go back and say that the dietary reference intakes, which the RDA is part of that, they don't get updated very often. And so the 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram body weight is still the DRI. You know, the dietary guidelines cannot change that. And the thing in doing that review that was funded by NIH, and it was supposed to inform the dietary guidelines and the DRI committee. So the DRI committee will be meeting and then they will come up with recommendations, which will be the official. So I think this is like, oh, this is confusing. But on the other hand, when we did that review, there is nothing new in protein that is not associated with athletes. And that was the frustrating thing. And part of it is, if you go back, is protein and nutrient of concern in the NHANES data set or the nutrition data set for the average American? It is not. But that doesn't help us, right? It's like, okay. And then somebody teaches life cycle nutrition, babies, two grams, toddlers, 1.5, kids, one, athletes, 1.5, you know, it really depends. And I mentioned the acceptable macronutrient from 10 to 35. So because protein is so important, it, none of these metrics really helps us at all coming up with recommendations. So anybody that's losing weight, yeah, you know, figure it out it might 35 of your calories should come from protein you know you got to figure it out and generally even that somebody teaches nutrition to making it helpful a lot of times what i use which is actually pretty helpful here's a dairy serving i get eight grams of quality protein one ounce of a meat uh is going to give me eight you know so and as opposed to a vegetable that will give me two and a grain that give me three but you know like putting it into that kind of things rather than this 0.8 grams of protein so I'm glad that it's the dietary guidelines have put protein front and center you know and to me the way it looks then people can say yeah protein is important but obsessing about the grams it's like depending on the person I just find is that useful to consumers but I think you know with all the apps that are out there and the ways for their getting their information, they really want that information. So, you know, in the end, I believe it's probably a good thing to say, hey, protein is really important. Here's a number that the dietary guidelines have come up with that is supported, like, you know, a lot of this way research would would put you in that, you know, the research that's been and a lot of it we couldn't use in that review. That was a frustrating thing. And that systematic review is there were very few feeding studies that weren't in athletes or people with disease. And we were stuck with healthy people and there was nothing new. There really has been nothing new that's been published. So we were kind of at a bad spot, but I think it was important for them to fund that and say, get it out in the literature because especially amino acids and protein quality, you know, most of that research is done in animal models, which is the best model we have. And it's real, You know, like the differences in essential amino acids in different protein sources is real. So as we're going into protein supplements and making sure that those supplements that are out there are high quality. And as you mentioned, we don't want them to have contaminants. So really important, too. So I would say overall, it brought protein to the top of the everybody's cares about protein, which I'm very happy about. I just don't think my concern is that people start dumping protein in when they're already obese. You're like, come on, you have to do a little more of the thinking about how many calories you need and more of those calories should come from high quality protein. Right. So now that we have these new dietary guidelines for Americans, when do you think the next or when is the next RDA or RDI? When will that be sort of announced or how often is that revised? Yeah, it doesn't have a deadline. So, you know, the dietary guidelines are supposed to come out every five years by, you know, they have congressional funding for that. So they do come out. The DRIs do not, but that committee is meeting. And the last time they're really updated, they're 25 years old, right? So do they need to be updated? Sure, we should update them. But it really will depend on who's on the committee. And, you know, and part of the thing is the cost. So for the school lunch people right now, they're freaking out because if they have to follow the new dietary guidelines, the amount of cost for protein, you know, so kind of, you know, it is always this sustainability, practicality and cost that affect everything. So on the nutrition side, I think it's good, but kind of how do we make it come out? How do we get the program out there and make sure that kids, but as you mentioned, like the breakfast that this cool breakfast, we can get more protein into those products, their products out there. So it's important that to say, Hey, for kids, they need more protein in their breakfast. So let's do the math and make sure that's what they're getting. Right. Yes, it does seem like there's some gaps we need to probably support farmers and ranchers. And, you know, the whole agricultural industry in the U.S. is going to need more support to help, I guess, meet these new government guidelines for especially in the schools, hospitals, everywhere. I think we need to be acknowledging that, but also things that we can't fix. We have to work on the things we can fix. And that is, hey, we know a lot about nutrition. We know a lot about fiber. We know a ton about protein and let's make sure we get that message out to people because they're interested. So I appreciate people coming up with new ways to get that information out. Yes. And lastly, what is your opinion on how many carbohydrates should be recommended to individuals? Because the FDA has a daily value on the food labels that we were talking about of around 275 grams per day, which seems like a lot for most individuals, especially if they are sedentary. Yeah, I would say that, you know, all of these things that different government agencies are involved in things. So FDA is in charge of nutrition facts, that is their thing. But if we go back to trying to put on that label, agreeing on what kind of information it needs to be on that label. I obviously need calories, but that, you know, carbohydrates are by difference. It's what's left. So to me, it isn't very helpful at all. And remember the RDA for carbs is only 130 grams total. So, you know, for the average consumer, am I worried if they're going to cut carbs out? I'm not at all. You know, sure. Fiber is important. Try to get it. But if you want to cut some calories, they've got to come from the carbs. So, you know, get after them. And what about fat? well it's yeah i've been it's always amazing i started 100 extension so i talked about everything people like hey do you know that much about fat and it's like i believe that we've overdone the saturated fat beating up on it that this is good fats versus bad fats so that is another advantage of the new dietary guidelines it's like hey you know other countries have been eating butter and they're not eating like you know industrial trans fats so maybe just you know using it here's my wonderful whole grain bread and I'm going to have some butter on it and that's okay. You know, I'm not going to have too much because I've got to control calories, but it's okay. Thank you for sharing your opinion on that. Now, based on all of your research, if you could redesign how people approach fat loss, what would that framework look like? I would say it has to be done. You know, you're not going to do it with diet alone. You've got to get people active. So I, you know, I started as an exercise person, and I'll still go exercise as the most important thing rather than get it done with diet, and that it's forever. I think this is where people is like, hey, I'm gonna be on this drug, and then I'm gonna be skin. It's like, it'll all come back so fast, and it totally is behavioral, and making it fun. So, you know, I think a lot of times the good thing about these drugs is people get motivated, like, oh, I lost all this weight, I'm motivated, but when anything that goes up too fast, it's going to go away. So I would say, first of all, I'm on it for the long term. It's just like your finances. I always argue it's the same thing as my finances. I'm not going to get it fixed overnight and I'm going to have to work on it every day. So some of that old stuff that Dr. Hill did out in Colorado, kind of looking at successful people, what did they do? They had breakfast, they exercised, and it was kind of an obsession, you know, for them to be successful. And, you know, it's like, well, do you have to obsess about it? You do, you really have to manage it. And so I do need to exercise as often as I can, you know, and also I have to get control of my diet and sure, have cake once in a while for a birthday, but just don't have it every day. So it kind of looks at long-term people. There are very few cohorts to have looked at success because there hardly is anything. And that's frustrating. it's really frustrating for people and kind of accepting this is who I am I'm always going to weigh 170 pounds and I'll be an active really fit 170 pound person I'll never weigh 120 so kind of it's not like you should give up but also being this is who I am and I need to think of my life and my family and making it work for us and putting it into the behavioral part of our life and being happy and enjoying food because it is when we were in the dietary guidelines one of the Japanese dietary guidelines had just come out and they said, number one, enjoy your food. And we're sitting there going, that's kind of a good idea. Like, let's not just eat up our food all the time and fight it. And we're always fighting some battle, you know, it's okay to enjoy it. And then let's go from there. So always there. Yes. Yes. We love Dr. Hill. He was a wonderful guest and his research is really amazing and fascinating as well. You know, how important exercises for the maintenance component. Now, very last question. If you were to recommend to someone what they should prioritize, what do you think would matter more? Hitting a certain protein target for the day, hitting a fiber target today, or optimizing both together? Well, I would have to go with optimizing, but I would still lead with protein. I just think it's so important and high quality protein. I feel like I'm talking on both sides of my mouth because I want fiber in and then there's some plant protein along with it. But for most people, they don't have enough calorie in their budget to do that. So I think you got to lead with for anybody trying to lose weight, maintain weight loss, you got to lead with high quality protein and backfill with fiber. Yeah, I love that message. And I love how both fiber and protein is like, you're just helping people add things and hopefully that displaces other energy macronutrients. Exactly. Well, Dr. Slavin, thank you so much for making the time to be here with us on the podcast today. It was so wonderful to get to talk to you about so much of your extensive research and thank you so much for all the contributions you've made to the science in this space. What can listeners look out for from you next and how can they get in touch with you and follow your work and research? Well, I'm pretty, I'm at a public institution, so I'm pretty easy to find. So, and just continuing fiber, protein exercise, all my interests. So I have no focus at all. So and farming and enjoying going out and supporting agriculture. All of those are important messages to me. Love it. Well, thank you so much for making the time to be here with us today. And thanks for doing this. I really appreciate you getting the word out. Well, I absolutely love this conversation with Dr. Joanne Slavin. What really stood out to me is that even coming from a background deeply rooted in fiber research, she consistently emphasized that protein is the most powerful and reliable driver of satiety, especially when it comes to supporting fat loss and preserving lean mass. I think one of the biggest takeaways from this episode is it's not about choosing between protein and fiber. It's about understanding how they can work together synergistically, but with protein as the foundation. We also covered some really important nuance around carbohydrate quality, whole foods versus ultra processed foods, and how dietary recommendations are actually formed, which I think gives a lot of valuable context to the conversations that we see happening online. So I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, I would love for you to share it with a friend. Take a screenshot and tag me on Instagram at ketogenic girl and let me know your biggest takeaway or insight or share it in our Facebook group for the Optimal Protein Podcast. All right, friends, I wanted to share a very quick update with you all. I received so many messages from listeners over the weekend asking about the a launch discount and saying that they didn't get it in time. And I completely understand because sometimes when I announce things like I did on Friday, maybe you don't listen to that podcast until Sunday. And so you wouldn't know that the discount was ending on Saturday night. So in response to that, I have extended the special launch pricing for the protein-sparing modified fasting library. So if you have been thinking about it, you have one more day to get it at the special pre-order launch discount rate. After that, it will go back to its regular retail price. So the protein spraying modified fasting library is the exact high protein structured approach that I used to lose 14 pounds of body fat while preserving all of my lean mass and muscle and without feeling deprived or constantly hungry. Instead of trying to restrict calories every single day. This system gives you a clear, repeatable structure for the week using high protein, lower energy days combined with maintenance days. So you can create fat loss in a way that actually feels sustainable. So inside the order, you will receive a full high protein recipe library, the digital download instantly so you can access it right away, start familiarizing yourself with how the structure works and the different meals and choosing your favorites. There is a tiered system for protein sparing modified fasting days and maintenance days, how to set your protein targets. Everything is explained to you. There's a grocery list and planning tools, and you will also receive a printed version of the library shipped out to you in the next one to two weeks, as well as three months of free membership in our protein sparing modified fasting library private community, which has been my favorite aspect of working on this whole system and launching this new book is just being in the community group with you all and seeing pictures of what meals you've made, which are your favorites, how delicious and satisfying you're finding everything. And there's been so much positive feedback and it is just so much fun to be in there with you all. Also, I have been receiving your feedback and creating new recipes. So I just added four new recipes to the library over the weekend. And that was this protein cinnamon raisin bread. I have that in quotations. It tastes just like the cinnamon raisin bread that I used to eat when I was growing up with butter. And I definitely have that on maintenance days. but you can enjoy the cinnamon raisin bread on protein-spraying modified fasting days with low-fat cream cheese or other toppings. I have a new protein tortilla, so I added a breakfast burrito and also a chicken burrito for dinner, and you can make any variation of burritos that you like with this protein tortilla, which is so delicious, soft, just like a flour tortilla, and it's so easy to make. And I also added a flatbread recipe, which I topped as an example with smoked salmon and cream cheese, like a lox bagel and fresh tomatoes and arugula and capers. But you could pretty much make any kind of flatbread recipe that would fit into the library because there's a lot of sandwich recipes. You could use any of those like the club sandwich or any variation that you like on the flatbread. So I am adding new recipes. I'm actually building out an extension pack right now of recipes, but I'm adding new recipes. And that is something that comes with the group support, which is not a coaching group. It's just a community support group for those of us who are interested in this high protein way of life and also dieting in a way that is effective and efficient where you feel satisfied from all your meals and you don't feel hungry or like you're suffering or that your meals don't have any taste or flavor. Everything in the library is delicious and very, very satisfying. Many of you have been telling me you have a hard time finishing all the meals and I completely understand because they are designed that way to maximize satiety. And when you're doing these protein-sparing modified fasting days, like one, two, or three days a week, the body gets into ketosis. And so the ketones and the high protein together pair to make this incredibly powerful satiety combination. So if you've been waiting, you have one more day to go check it out, see if you would like to take advantage of the special pre-launch pricing. And you can use the link in the show notes. It also has the discount, which will be automatically applied for you at checkout. Or you can just go to ketogenicgirl.com and use the code PSMFLaunchDiscount70. That's PSMFLaunchDiscount70 to take advantage for one more day and save big on investing in your health. and having this drug-free alternative to effective body recomposition, maximizing fat loss while protecting lean mass and muscles. So head over to ketogenicgirl.com and use the code PSMF, launch discount 70 to save. Thank you so much for being here. As always, I'm sending you so much love. And until the next episode, I'm wishing you a fat-fueled rest of your day. Thanks for listening and bye for now. that a keto diet is suitable for you and to rule out any conditions or contraindications that may pose risks or that are incompatible with a ketogenic diet. A keto diet may or may not be appropriate for you if you have any kind of health condition, whether known to you or unknown. So you must consult your physician to find this out. Anyone under the age of 18 should consult with their physician and their parents or legal guardian. Thank you.