Tig Notaro Is Treading Water

I remember that night I went to a diner with my friends and we were just like, wow, that was a crazy show, you know, because I was up there talking about the death of my mother and having cancer and all of this stuff. Good evening, hello. I have cancer. How are you? And then people were like, oh, the story went viral overnight. And I was like, what does that mean? What went viral? There's so much in that set that people can relate to. Most people have lost a relationship and everyone's been affected by cancer, the loss of a parent. It was raw. Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. I got Tig on today. Tig Nottaro, so you've got that to look forward to because she's great and we really had a great time together. But before that, how's it going? I mean, you know, fall is here, which is nice. But now we're back to it being dark out so early, which I don't know about you, always lands pretty heavy for me. For whatever reason, it just seems to drain my energy and kind of makes me want to just hibernate and hide from the world just when the specter of the holiday season starts to rear up its head and lord over us, which always for me seems to kick up a little bit of anxiety because I feel like it just, it puts pressure on me, on all of us to power ourselves up at a time of year when all I want to do really is power down and kind of seclude myself a little bit. But I do have some good news to share. I had my six months check-in, check-up with my doc, my surgeon, and it's good news. It's a bit of a rebirth because he was able to review some brand new scans on my spine and my fusion, I'm happy to report, is setting in nicely. There's no slippage in the L5 region. And so I got the all clear to get back to some light exercise and training. Nothing too crazy because I still can't do anything that compresses my spine, like for example, lifting weights above my head or flip turns or of course running. I can return to the pool for some light swimming and to my indoor Zwift trainer to resume some spinning, which is such a huge relief because it means I can start doing a few of the things that actually make me feel like me and of course start working off the extra 30 pounds that I put on over the last six months, which has been a bit of an embarrassing side effect of my surgery recovery having forced me to be more sedentary than I think I've been in my entire life. And there's still a long way to go. I actually won't know until at least May if I can return to 100% because it takes 12 to 18 months for the fusion to really set in. But right now, everything is currently heading in the right direction. Already I've built up a bit of momentum dialing in my nutrition and my fitness routine. In fact, I've already dropped about six pounds so far. So that's my big win for the week. And if there's a lesson in all of this applicable to all of you guys, I suppose it's patience. I hear so many stories of back surgeries like mine not taking or going terribly wrong. And I suspect a big reason for that is because patients lack the patience to hold back from getting back to their normal movement routines, convincing themselves that they're fine way too soon when they're actually not fine. And for me, it's helpful to always keep my eye on the long game, which is a game that requires a different kind of discipline than the kind that many athletes or many strivers rely upon to achieve their goals. The discipline to do less than you know you can when life is calling you to do that, which is like a discomfort. Anybody who is ambitious will be much less comfortable with than the discomfort that they're used to, which is just pushing through things. But in order to play the long game well, there are times in life like the time that I'm in right now when the best way to advance your life forward is to let go of all of that, even when doing so threatens your identity and challenges your ego. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. As someone who has been able to create an influential presence online and sustain it for a long period of time, I can tell you that what it requires is getting over asking others for permission and giving it to yourself to create a platform to share your expertise, to amplify your voice, to build a community and to serve it. To get there, get Squarespace because Squarespace gives you everything you need to claim your domain, showcase your offerings with a professional website, grow your brand and get paid all in one place. 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So head on over to on.com slash richroll to explore the latest innovations in performance wear and don't forget to sign up for the newsletter to claim a 10% discount. I want you to pause for a moment because I want to tell you about my friend RJ. Now you might know this guy as the founder and CEO of Rivian. He is certainly that, but he's really so much more. He's one of those rare people who actually walks the walk. I've watched him over many years and I know him to be this incredibly deeply committed person committed to preserving wild spaces while also inspiring people to explore responsibly. And that's basically Rivian in a nutshell. Their mission, keep the world adventurous forever, comes from this understanding that adventure and a healthy planet, these are not separate things. They're the same thing. Here's what gets me. Every generation deserves wild places to roam to climb higher, to run farther, to be changed by the journey. But obviously that's only possible if we're not destroying those places in the process of getting there. So yeah, Rivian builds electric vehicles, but really they're building something bigger. Momentum toward a future where exploration does not come at the expense of nature, but actually inspires us to protect it. It's like, why create the ultimate adventure vehicle if we're not protecting the adventures themselves? And that's why I'm so proud to align forces in partnership with Rivian. This isn't just about transportation. It's about building a world worth exploring for our kids, for their kids, and for generations to come. So Tig, Tig Nataro is a comedian. You probably know that because basically she's all over the place and kind of a big deal. Netflix specials, The New York Times bestselling memoir, even a Grammy nomination. But you might not know that she's also an actor. She stars in Star Trek, Starfleet Academy, as well as a screenwriter and a filmmaker. And I was surprised to discover just how many projects she has produced. And is involved in. And she's in the studio today to talk about her wild upbringing, her deadpan comedic style, her creative process, her cancer diagnosis, and her plant-based lifestyle. We also get into exactly what is going on in the comedy scene right now, including what she makes of comedians with podcasts, becoming important platforms, not just for popular culture, but for culture war topics. And most importantly, politics at the highest level of power. You can check out Tig's podcast, Handsome, which I guess is sort of like a queer, smart-less, but smarter. And the new doc that she produced called Come See Me in the Good Light, which is about her friend, poet laureate Andrea Gibson, who passed away from cancer this past July. And that doc, which is pretty great, I had not watched it at the time that we had done our conversation. But I have since. It's fantastic. You should check it out. And it's premiering on Apple TV this week on November 14th. We're rolling, Tig. You're here. You came here in a rainstorm. I did. You drove a car here. I did. You don't own a car, but you, you borrowed your wife's. Yeah. I appreciate making the trek. I'm so delighted to talk to you today. And I wanted to start, um, with you, I wanted to start with you. Um, by saying, like, I'm dying to know, like, I don't know if you have any awareness of this whatsoever, but it was probably, it must have been at least two years ago, maybe three years ago. I was leaving Whole Foods in New York City and I was walking down the street, like in the Bowery. And I saw you coming towards me. And for a moment we like locked eyes and, and I thought, oh, because I remembered that you had this whole plant-based certification thing. And I was like, maybe she might know who I am from like the weird subculture of like vegan people. And I was like, now she doesn't know. I was like, I'm not doing that. And we, we kind of like lit. And then we just passed each other and, uh, and that was that. I don't recall that day, but I know who you are. That is why I drove my wife's car here in a rainstorm. Well, we have Jason to thank. Yes. Long time employee number one, uh, engineer, because he went to your show and got called on by you. Yeah, we were chatting and, uh, I was like, what, and what do you do? He's like, oh, I'm a podcast producer. And I'm like, there's what, 10 trillion podcasts. And, um, I'm like, what are you, what, what podcast? He's like, rich role. I'm like, okay, that's like the one podcast. That's crazy for me. It's always surreal for me to hear stuff like that, but, um, super cool. Well, even though you know who I am, it's, it goes both ways. You're everywhere. I mean, I was just saying before we started, like you have so many, it's impossible to keep track of like all the projects and specials and documentaries and, you know, everything that's going on with you, TV shows, Star Trek. I mean, it's why, like, I don't know how you do it all. Well, I've, you know, for years I've been doing interviews where people will ask about, um, work-life balance. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm really getting on that work-life balance. I'm really applying it. And then one day I realized, no, I'm not. I'm just saying that. I'm just like, I'm saying what I wish I was doing. And then I was in Toronto filming this new season of the new, it hasn't aired yet, but it's Starfleet Academy is the new series starring Holly Hunter and Paul Giamatti is the villain. Oh, really? Oh, wow. Yeah. But I was like, I'm just living in Toronto for six months without my family. This is not work-life balance. And so I downgraded myself to just a recurring guest star and I have my weekly podcast and now I'm going to tour in the new year and I told my agent I only want to go out a week and a month. And so to me, that is work-life balance. That feels totally manageable to just go out to Toronto and film an episode, a few episodes a season and go out of town a week and a month and stay home and podcast. Yeah. You do the podcast from your house, right? Or wherever you are. Yeah. My house, I have a home office or if I'm in a hotel room and then if all three hosts, because I co-host this with two other comedians, Fortune Feemster and May Martin. And if we're all in the same city, we will podcast at the Head Gum Studios, but it's very rare. Almost never. It's hard because we're all touring comedians, we're all on TV shows and yeah, so we're busy. And how's Handsome going? Handsome's going really well. It's exactly what I was looking for in a podcast because I love silliness and I think because I've had a lot of public challenges in my life, a lot health related. I've kind of become, I accidentally became this person that people would, I don't even know how to say this without sounding like I'm patting myself on the back, but like inspiring and all of that kind of stuff and which is great. I love for people to be inspired in a positive way, but I also am a very deeply silly person and I describe myself as 100% no nonsense and then 100% all nonsense. So Handsome kind of allows me to get in there and be that. Be silly. Yeah, it's very fresh. I like it a lot. It's very, it's cool and it has such a distinct voice to it that's different. I mean, it's like a trope at this point, like every comedian has a podcast, but there's a very specific route that you're taking, the three of you together that I think is important and the whole kind of like podcast to stand or whatever you want to call it. But with you specifically, I was joking with the team earlier. I was like, I'm kind of scared of Tig. Like she's intimidating. Maybe I'm intimidated by comedians in general, and maybe it's just like the deadpan kind of style of your comedy where it's like, maybe it's just, when you can't read where someone's coming from and they're very witty, you know, it makes me back on my heels a little bit. Well, please don't feel that way. No, I feel very welcome with you right now. Yeah, am I as scary as you thought? No, I don't think so. I don't know. It's just my internal monologue and my insecurity most likely. Well, I love trying to find interesting ideas and people in the world of, I don't even know, like do you consider yourself in the world of wellness and is that, I don't mean that that word is now like sort of morphed in a way that makes me a little uneasy. I would have said absolutely a handful of years ago. Right. Now I'm not so sure. Whatever you are, it feels like there are people doing similar things that you do, but I've never felt so far that you splinter off from what I think or feel. And if you do, I feel open to hearing your perspective because you feel like a very reasonable person. I try to be. I think you really are. You feel open. You feel like you have your ideas, but you just feel grounded and reasonable. And so it's just allowed me to follow what you're doing. And whereas other people, I'm like, where are you going? We've all had that experience of whether it's a podcast or somebody we follow online and you're like, oh, I like this person. And then at some point there's an inflection point and they diverge or go in a different direction. And that person always probably thinks that they're being consistent with their integrity or true to themselves or whatever. And part of it is like what we project on people that we don't know. But also online, there's an incentive structure that has bent more and more people in strange directions that at least for me, I've had that experience as well where I was like, oh, I thought this was one thing. Now I'm realizing it's another. Have I changed? Have they changed? I always say they changed. They would probably think that they stayed the same because that's the way the human brain operates. But it has been fairly deranging over the last couple of years to see, I don't even know how you would put it, like the, how the incentive structure of like online creators has moved people in interesting directions. And how would you describe the incentive structure? Well, I think due to algorithms, they make creative decisions about the content that they're creating based upon what they think that will serve the algorithm and result in the maximum amount of attention. And if you're making decisions based on that, you're going to host contrarians and people with outrageous takes or people that are gonna foment drama. And so you're not really making those decisions based upon like whatever core mission you're on. Like, what are we actually doing here? And what's important? And what am I trying to provide the audience with? You're just thinking about eyeballs. Because the dollars follow the eyeballs. Yeah, they do. So, we don't have to name names or anything, but like, there's a lot of that right now. And so I think a lot about that. I'm like, you know, is this in service to the audience? Is this consistent with like my worldview, et cetera, and trying to not make decisions about that, which means you're not going to be necessarily competitive in the marketplace, because the marketplace is demanding that of people right now. And that's kind of a drag, I think. It kind of reminds me of what I was just saying about trying to find, you know, balance in my life and my work. And it's so easy to get caught up in, oh, here's a job and here's this amount of money and here's, are you gonna do this and will you do this? And I think for a while, I was, I was, I know for a while, I was just doing it and I was following it. I wasn't doing anything that was against my belief system, but it was more so, I wasn't really being present with the reality of my life until I was sitting in Toronto for six months. And I really got in touch with it and really made a shift. And I know I really made a shift because when I would tell people that I chose to go from a series regular, like on the show, guaranteed pay to just a recurring guest star, the responses a little, people were very surprised, and you can say, oh, that's because you've had success or you have a savings account or whatever it is. Sure. But also, I need to still work. It's not like I can just- And it's a consistent paycheck and a good paycheck. It is. It's hard to say no to that. It is, but I realized the reality of what I want was not lining up with how I was living. And it's way more important to me to actually be at the doubleheader baseball game on Sundays with my sons and grocery store. I walk around our house singing this very unkechi song. Well, maybe you'd be into it, but I'm like, I'm a normal person, do normal things, live in a normal life because I'm normal. But I love it. I love the routine of being with my family and the day to day, and then my work being my work. Mm-hmm. Well, kids will do that. But also, how much of that is a response or a reaction to pursuing a career for many, many, many years that is so uncertain? You never know where the next paycheck is going to come from. It's very hard scrabble. Now you're in a place where it doesn't have to be that way and there's a craving for a normal life, whereas somebody who has had a nine to five their whole life, they're like, oh my God, what would it be like to just go to the comedy club every night? And that seems very appealing to that person. Oh, and that's where I was. I mean, I've been doing comedy for almost 30 years and I could not believe that I was making a living doing stand-up. And I failed three grades, dropped out of high school. I was kind of aimless and I liked music, maybe wanted to work in the music business, did a little bit. But I was really bouncing around and had no stability and no focus in life. And the fact that I found some focus and success in comedy was wild. And I was so thankful and anxious to jump in there. But yeah, I think obviously life changes and priorities shift. And when I was really little, I was so into sports and art so passionately. And I moved on. And then I was, you know, I played guitar and drums and I was so into that. And I moved on, you know, and then you, I found myself with this identity as a comedian. And then you think because it's, you're so public and you've done it for so long that this is the thing. But then it shifts again. Because for a while I was so confused that like, why would I, I just want to like be at home and what's wrong with it? Am I like deeply depressed or, and then I was just taking my daily walk one day and I was like, I remembered. I was into art. I was so focused on working on guitar playing and drums. And then it shifts. It's like, I'm not deeply depressed. I'm just a different place. Well, there's something to holding your identity loosely. You know, it's like, well, I'm a comedian and this is what I do. And if you're holding on too tightly to that, then you perhaps miss out on other ways of finding happiness and fulfillment. And that's what I feel so thankful that I can still be a comedian and put on my space suit and go I know. Did you ever dream you would be on Star Trek? Oh my God. That's the whole thing. It is a whole thing. It's a whole world that you're, it's not like being on a normal TV show, right? Like it comes with a whole universe of expectations and rabid fans. Yeah. I, my brother and I were very into the original series when we were little and had the action figures. I went to the conventions when I was a little kid. Okay. Now. I know. Yeah. Okay. Now we've splintered. Finally, I found. I just lost, I just lost a loyal podcast fan. No, I was on one of the shows. Yeah. No, I, I, the people, the fans are so, yeah, so devoted and they're so kind. It is wild. Yeah. How earnest and kind and passionate these people are. You have to go to like the, the, the sort of Comic Con events where you sign autographs and stuff like that. I don't have to. People dress up. I would, I was, yes. I've been to Comic Con. I hosted the Star Trek panel when I, this is my second Star Trek series. Right. The first one was Star Trek Discovery. And when I was on that series, I hosted the Star Trek panel at Comic Con in San Diego. And then when that show ended, my character just jumped over to Starfleet Academy, which hasn't aired yet. It airs in January of 2026. But yeah, I didn't imagine I would end up, my friend Alex Kurtzman, who runs the whole Star Trek universe. Sure. Oh, Orsi too. They did Alias. Yeah. They did Alias. They did Mission Impossible, like, right, JJ Averton stuff. Transformers, so many things. Bob sadly passed away in February of this year. But I had known Bob and Alex from when I first moved to LA and I needed a job. I was a, a terrible receptionist at Sam Raimi's company, the director. And he was the executive producer of Zena and Hercules and all these different TV shows. And, but anyway, Alex and I have remained friends and he brought me in to talk to me about doing a part on Star Trek Discovery. And I honestly thought it would be an episode or two. And I was like, yeah, great. You know, people say we'd love to have you as much as we can. And it's like, yeah, sure. Even though he was a friend, I was still like, I'll probably be in and out quickly. And then he kept having me back. And, and now I'm going on my second series. So no, I didn't see it coming. But I am proud to be a part of that world because it is, it's just, you know, they try to do good with, with, with what they're the storytelling and, and it's a really nice crew and cat. It just feels good. Well, in a different age, it would have been shot in Los Angeles and you would have been able to do it, but that's not the Hollywood of today. No, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. You have to go to London, Toronto, Vancouver, Atlanta, Austin. I mean, they're all great places, but... So I want to understand the origin story here. You're this kid growing up in Mississippi in, like it's kind of a small town, right? Like right on the water. I was born in Jackson. And then we moved down to Paschus Jan, which is, it's two words, pass and Christian, which is the Cajun pronunciation for Christian. It's near like Baloxy. It's not that far from New Orleans, right? Without traffic, it's about an hour east from New Orleans. And it seems like you, I mean, first of all, seventh grade was the last time you went to school. The last year that I graduated. But I also lived in Texas. We moved from Mississippi to Texas, and Texas is where I dropped it. I failed eighth grade twice. I failed it again, but they just moved me up to ninth grade just so I didn't throw myself off of something. And then I get to ninth grade and I fail that. And... Was that because you just couldn't focus or what was going on? I couldn't focus. I had a lot going on at home. It was just a circus. It was an absolute circus. Your mom sounds like a complete character. Yes. I mean, I even wrote on your website in your bio, like you say, Tigg, affectionately named by her brother as a child was born in Jackson, Mississippi and was raised by her single mother and passed Christian, Mississippi during hot summer days, her artistic and free spirited mother would feed the children all three meals at once, then hosed down their diapered bodies in high chairs to cut back on cooking and cleaning, leaving more time for her to paint donkeys on the outside of their house. I mean... That was not my childhood? That was not my childhood. That was very much mine. Yeah, my mother was an artist and the outside of our house was her canvas. And she, for our birthday party, she truly painted a donkey so we could play Pin the Tail and the Donkey. And she was doing her best, but she didn't have much. She just was a very wild, free thinking, free spirited artist that raised me with this core belief that if anybody has a problem with me, they can go to hell. And that's what she told me my whole childhood, tell them to go to hell. And a little bit of chaos too. A lot, a lot of chaos. And for a young person, maybe made home feel a little destabilizing. For sure. I mean, my parents split when I was six months and so my stepfather came along and he had stability, but he traveled a lot. So we moved out of the house with donkeys on the wall. But they needed each other. My stepfather, my mother. Because he grounded her? He grounded her, literally. He would get grounded. Because she would sometimes put us to bed and go out for the night. But anyway, yeah. Yeah, it was that kind of environment. But also she would pull him out of his shell. He was very stoic. And wasn't quite able to see you for you? No, he did finally. And it was a really beautiful touching moment after my mother's funeral. We were leaving Mississippi and I mean, this guy, we were aliens to each other. He was more patient, I think, with my mother because he was married to her. But he just, and my brother was playing sports and doing well in school. And I was just over here smoking and failing and riding a skateboard and listening to Van Halen. He didn't even know what to do with me. And so when we were driving away from my mother's funeral, he said that he wanted to apologize to me for something. And that in itself was like, what could that possibly be? And he apologized for years before he had told me that my career was a waste of my time and my intelligence. And it was devastating because I had pride in having gotten through my childhood and all of my failures. And then I was making not just a living, but a good living for myself as a comedian. And it was, even though I hadn't fully broken through at that point, it was 2012, I was, I had a great life. Sure. I mean, by 2012, you're, you know, you're a well-known established comic on TV all the time. Yeah, like there's plenty of evidence that you're, you know, out there killing it. Yeah. And he couldn't give it up. He still encouraged me to go to business school or he said, I always thought you'd make a good attorney. And I said to him, I'm saying, I am so happy. I found happiness and direction. And I'm making a really good living. And I said, you're telling me, you think I should leave that and go to business school? And he said, absolutely. And so that's what he apologized for. And he said, I realized now, and he got emotional, which I had never seen the robot cry. And, and he said, you know, I was projecting onto you what I thought your life should be based on what I did or what, what I was told. And, and he said, and I never really understood you. And I just want to tell you that I know now that it's not the child's responsibility to teach the parent who they are. It's the parent's responsibility to learn who their child is. And I didn't do that. And this is all through tears. And I'm like, oh my gosh, we just buried my mother. I can't believe she missed this. Because this is all she wanted. You know, she supported anything I was doing artistically or, I mean, she wanted me to go to school, but she was definitely my cheerleader. Right. You're the more mature and fully expressed version of her on some level, right? Like, you were able to channel her spirit and put it into something tangible. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's really beautiful that he gave it up for you though, that he was able to acknowledge that, like to have the self-awareness and then express it to you. Oh my gosh. And then he, when my mother, after my mother was gone, you know, he was, and that my, my biological father died a couple of years after my mother. And so, Rick, my stepfather, he became my, that was my parent. And I, you know, I couldn't believe this was who I had to go to for everything. And, you know, he's just like, what is that? Yes, well. And it was so crazy, but he really stepped up and he really shifted. And he, not that he wouldn't have like paid for my wedding, but he was like cake shopping with Stephanie's mother and me and Stephanie and Stephanie's sister and my brother, like all of us met in New Orleans and were driving around cake tests. That's not anything he would have done if my mother was alive. And he, even though my cousin hosted our wedding, Rick paid for it. And one of the most amazing, and he was never, I was never shunned for being gay or anything, but this was like classic Rick. And it was also so touching, but on my wedding day, and he just, everything should be a certain way with him, you know? And I was wearing like a suit and had a shirt. I didn't have a tie or anything, but he came up and he said, uh, TIG, I was wondering if you would like to borrow my tie today for your, for your wedding. It's sweet. It's so sweet. And I was like, oh, Rick, because he was really acknowledging who, and I'm not a tie wearing lesbian, but I appreciated that he was. You think maybe that might be something that TIG would like. Exactly. And I was so touched by that. And I said, oh, no, thank you, Rick. I don't want to wear a tie, but in his mind, you wear a suit and with the suit comes a tie. And he's happy to take off his to give to his daughter for her wedding day. So, and then when we had kids, he flew out like twice a year and would be on the floor playing with them. And I'm like, I'd call my brother. I'd be like, how is this? So crazy. I mean, you got it. You know, it's, we're like of the same age. And I talk about this all the time, but it's, it's kind of shocking that we're, you know, we're in our fifties, late fifties, and, and we're all hung up about like how our parents feel about us and stuff. I mean, I have a similar, you know, an analogous situation. Like my mom has dementia right now, but she could never give it up. You know, I'm, I'm the great disappointment. And, you know, you can still go to medical school and like, you know, the same, it's just a different version of the same story, right? Yeah. And all we want is, you know, love and acceptance. And for some reason, it's so difficult to get it. And everyone's out there doing the best they can, based upon the way that they were raised. And nobody really knows what they're doing. And all we can do is try to do a little bit better for our kids and interrupt those patterns. And, you know, usually we go to the extreme, like we go too far into the extreme and then that has to swing back, but you, you know, like you got what so many people like go to their grave wishing that they could have gotten. I mean, I feel so, so lucky. And for, like I said, for a while, I was like, I can't believe my mother, we literally just buried her and we're driving away and this is what happens. And, but then I thought, if I had a moment with my mother and I said, I can't believe you've missed that Rick apologized for everything and he accepts me for who I, and I didn't know I needed it from him. I, but the relief and the tears and the gratitude I felt, I was like, I can't believe I needed that all of this time. But he might have shared it with her earlier and she might have said, you know, you should say that to take one day. You know what? Actually, now that you say that, I think that is, that is what happened because right before my mother died, they had called to say they wanted to come out and visit me. And it was after that phone call when I, I, I was, I'm not somebody that I'm not a big complainer. I don't call home like this happened. And, but I, I, there was something that happened in the comedy world where I was, I was a little confused and thrown off and hurt. And I didn't know what to do with that information. And I, when I called home and talked to them, that's when Rick said, well, you know, you should probably go to business school. And I was like, wait, what? That's not why I was calling for some support, you know, and to hear that I should just extract myself from my life. That's why I said to him, you, this is just a bad day at work for me. This isn't a bad life. And, and that is now that you say it, I'm, my mother died shortly after they called to try and make a plan to come out. And, and it was partly because Rick wanted to apologize to me for that. And, but when I imagined saying to my mother, like, Rick finally did this and said this, I imagine knowing my mother so well that she would have just said, it doesn't matter that I missed it. Just the fact that it happened at all is what's important. And, and I do, I feel, I know it's rare what I got. And what's even crazier is my whole, like so many kids, I was such an impatient kid. And my stepfather, you know, he was just so like, TIG, you have to be patient. There's everything has a process. Everything, it was all about, well, he's not wrong. No, he, it's so good. But what's crazy, what ended up coming full circle was when he, he ended up dying from a disease I had, which one of the diseases I had, which was C. diff, which is a, I'm sure you know, it's a intestinal disease that is very deadly. And when I had it, he had never heard of it. And most people hadn't at that time. It's, it's becoming more prevalent. It's a super bug. But anyway, when he was on his deathbed three years ago, I was with him. And my brother was trying to get there in time. And so I had this concentrated time with, he was, he was on a respirator. He couldn't talk. He was, but he was, he was completely coherent. And the nurses told me when I got there, they said, he's, he's ready. And I said, okay. And they said, you need to, we need you to just confirm with him that he understands that when we take him off this machine that, that that is the end. And I was like, okay, it was just so much to take in. And I was, you know, it was very emotional. And, and I explained to him, I said, Rick, the, the nurses, the doctors say that you are ready. And I just want you to know, like, I support this, but if we do take you off, you do understand that this is, that's it. This is the end. And he nodded, yes. And then the doctor or somebody came in and said, yes, grab the doctor and said, there's an emergency. And they had to pull the doctor from there. And, and they said, it was going to take a while. And Rick was like, was time went on. His, his arms were flailing. He was frustrated. He was very frustrated. And I got to have a moment next to him where I was like, Rick, as you told me, my whole life, you have to be patient. After I said, it's a process. You couldn't help it. You couldn't help it. Oh my God. But it was so incredible that at the end, and he nodded. He nodded, yes. And, and his arms came down. And it was such a touching, funny moment that I got to actually apply what he taught me my entire life. I got to tell him that the doctor had to go and we'll be back, but it's a process and you have to be patient. That's unbelievable. Yeah. I just, I can't even believe that that was my final moment with him. Good Lord, the holiday season. I can't believe it. But once again, it's here a time of year that I tend to find overwhelming because I'm a creature of routines and I don't like my routines being disrupted. But that's just the deal with holidays, all the travel, the family gatherings, eating patterns that go sideways. I think it's okay to admit that it can all be a little bit too much at times. To combat the chaos, I try to double down on portable routines that work and don't demand that much time. And at the top of that list is AG1 Next Gen, who's sponsoring this episode. It is a daily health drink that combines your multivitamin, superfoods, and antioxidants into one simple green scoop that's clinically shown to fill in common nutrient gaps. In order to stick, routines need to be simple. So I keep it that way. Just cold water, a scoop of AG1, done, one solid health decision just locked in before the day gets away from me. 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And it tastes like berries instead of something medicinal that you've got to force down, which obviates the palatability problem with most liposomal products. And the single-serve packets make it easy to take with me anywhere I go. So boost your immune system and your glow. Get 20% off for life and explore all of Peek's Pure Ingredient products at peaklife.com slash richroll. That's P-I-Q-U-E life.com slash richroll. You've gone through a lot. He passed away. Your mom passed away. My father passed away. C. diff. Your father. And then the cancer diagnosis. That's a lot of life. I mean, that's the tip of the iceberg. But yeah. Yeah. And then the journey to having children and all of that. I appreciate the transparency and the vulnerability with which you've kind of shared all of this publicly in your comedy, but also like in the TIG documentary, etc. How do you think about like those words like authenticity and vulnerability? Because your comedy wasn't always as personal as it evolved into. I mean, as far as those words, authenticity and vulnerability, I mean, I'm good with that. I connect with that. I definitely like the idea of feeling congruent with my life, with my... That's like what I was saying about live life and work balance. I just, I want things to line up and feel right. And it doesn't always. And I'm always searching for ways for it to feel that way. But I think I really am that person. And I wasn't. I feel like in 2012, when it was four months, I had like a sinus infection, bronchitis, pneumonia, contracted C. diff. Was the C. diff a reaction to the antibiotics for the pneumonia? Yeah. The antibiotics can clear out your gut and leave C. diff alone to thrive, which is in your gut. And it works great when the other bacteria is in there. I know you know this, but so yeah, I took antibiotics for the pneumonia and then developed C. diff. And then my mother tripped and hit her head and died. And then my girlfriend and I split up and then I was diagnosed with invasive cancer. And that was in a four month period of time. And that's what cracked me open. And I have no idea who I was before 2012. When I see pictures and I just, even though I was on my path and comedy and I was out and I was all of these things, there were so many levels that that four months pushed me through that I didn't even, at first when people would say, do you think you just, you needed a wake up call? Was this awake? And I was like, no, I don't feel like I'm somebody that needed a wake up call. But as time went on, I was like, no, not that I think all of that happened for me to have a wake up call, but whatever happened for whatever reason, I did get a wake up call. It just took me a long time to realize that I was not living as presently as I, I didn't even think about, I wasn't thinking about what I was eating or drinking or hanging out with. I was just living my life. Well, I want to understand that better because I think for the average person, like if they were to look at you at the time, well, you're in your career, like things are happening, like you're funny, or like you're moving up the ladder, becoming more successful, everything seems fine. Like what do you mean? So what do you mean a wake up call? Like what was it specifically that though that series of experiences like in such a condensed period of time brought to the surface that needed reckoning? Like what was it that you had to confront to create more integrity? I think I didn't, this is what comes to mind right away is I didn't really understand the preciousness of everything, whether it was health, life, relationships. I looked back on people that I dated and I'm thankful for every experience I've had and every person I've dated, but I was so not present in ways in relationships. And I think, and I'm basically friendly with everybody that I've dated, but there were people that I later went back to and said, I don't know how you dealt with me. I was so, I just self-centered and just like doing whatever I wanted to do. And yeah, I was younger, but even down to, like I said, what I was putting into my body, I just didn't even think about anything. And I took risks that I was always a risk taker as a kid. Shocker. I mean, come on. Yeah, it's like you have a very like liberal relationship with risk. Like you were doing all kinds of stuff, like for you to drop out of school and become this music manager and tourman, like you were bouncing around doing lots of different things. Like that is scary to the average person. Risky, like risky stuff. Risky, okay. Risky. Risky, risky. No, risky. Like I would not repeat on this show because I wouldn't want to give anybody ideas. So just took risks that I'm glad I had that in my personality because I feel like I've been able to channel it in a different and positive direction in my life, my career, like talking publicly about having cancer. I did my HBO special with my shirt off. Those are risks that I want to take now. Yeah, those are creative risks. That's different. But it's still, I think it's rooted in just that core part of me that I'll take a risk. I haven't experienced the kind of loss that you've experienced and I certainly haven't had a life threatening illness. My only point of reference here or analogous life experience is just bottoming out on drugs and alcohol and getting sober. And that's its own kind of like reckoning where you realize how you've lived your life unconsciously or reactively in a certain way and in some degree of self-obsession. And the experience of getting sober kind of disabuses you of that and you set a new trajectory for yourself. And it sounds like that's sort of the experience that you had. I'm trying to help people understand what was it about confronting your mortality and the mortality of the people that you care about that made it so clear to you that you needed to make these changes. I don't think I had a full understanding or appreciation of how quickly things can go away. And then in that four months losing, like just being in hospital bed after hospital bed, wheelchair after wheelchair. I remember turning to my girlfriend at one point going, this can't be normal that a 40-something year old is constantly in a wheelchair or diapers. It's so humbling where it's like, gosh, also I had never been so sick. I had the luxury of like so many people, you have a headache or a stomach ache. There's a medication you can take and you're done. I couldn't get a hold of my health. I was slipping away. I could not turn my health around. I was losing so much weight. I was struggling for so long. And when that happens, the windshield wipers of like, I got to turn this ship around. Everything just became very precious to me. And it was relationships. It was, my mother tripped and died. I didn't see that coming. I didn't, that was right around my birthday. So when Rick called me, I was like, oh, this is, you know, this is a birthday phone call. It wasn't, you know. Yes, she just tripped, fell, hit her head and that was it. Yeah, she was on life support. But it wasn't like, oh, she broke her hip and like, she was on a decline for many months. It was a very sudden thing. Yeah, she hit her head and then Rick was there and helped her up, checked her out. And then he went to bed and she stayed up and was watching Jimmy Kimmel. And then he said, when he got up in the morning, she just was covered in blood and never was conscious again. And so those really difficult, forced moments of your mother's gone and your health is gone and you can't turn it around. You cannot beg the universe enough to bring your mother back and fix any issue or have any future with her. That it's just gone. And then not be able to turn the ship around with my health. I just had to wait and see if my body was going to respond to the treatment. And it, you know, took a while and it was hard. But all of that stuff, you can't help but look back and reflect on what you did in life and who you did that with and how you did it and how you would do it so differently. And it's hard to stay in that moment too because I am human. Snap back. Yeah. Yeah, you have such clarity. And I have, I have changed. I'm thrilled I've changed. But I have moments where I find myself coasting. Like I said, in an interview saying, oh yeah, life work balance. I'm on top of that. And I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm not. And I'm asleep in this conversation. This sense of powerlessness. I mean, it kind of forces a surrender, right? That cures you, at least temporarily, of that self-obsession and allows you to see your life a little bit more clearly. One of the things I think a lot about is extreme moments like that. These are the levers of change. Like if you, you know, these changes or a deeper level of self-awareness, they're always available to us. Like we can change in any moment and we all know what our bad behaviors are or what our patterns are. But, you know, it's so difficult to do it. And it takes kind of some kind of intervening external event like that to shake us up and actually create the willingness to make those changes. Why can't we just, you know, elect to do them when we, why do we have to be in so much pain in order to do it? It's really wild. It really is. Because it's, I mean, this is so minor, but it's like even after being so sick and shifting to what I believe is a healthier diet, I'm also plant-based and people will talk to me about it and say, like, how do you do it? How do you stay focused on that? How do you, and I always say, like, you really have to have a North Star of why you've made this decision. You can't, this isn't just like like a diet that you have to be driven by your health or your love for animals or your concern for the planet or whatever it is that is going to keep you in line. It's not a, during the pandemic people, a couple of people were like, so you stayed vegan during the pandemic, even? That's like, That's where you were really, you kicked it into high gear during the pandemic. You were like, there was one moment where she quit in comedy and she's just going to be a health coach now. I thought when the pandemic ended, I was on set with Reese Witherspoon doing a movie and I was talking to her. I was like, oh my gosh, I got a plant-based nutrition certification and I've been helping my family member and comedians and my next door neighbor who had high blood pressure. I thought that maybe I'll do this as like a side gig and she said, oh my gosh, she goes, Tig, that's going to make you hundreds of dollars. It was so funny. But yeah, I started to think, and it is, it's a huge passion of mine because I have seen great results. I feel so good. And I did. I thought, what am I going to do with all this time? And a lot of comedians were doing like everyone else is, this is their moment to do a daily show or really work on their material and be an online, really amp up their online or start a Zoom podcast. Like smart was started during the pandemic, I think, right? As a sort of, we need something to do. I mean, look, I started, I did two podcasts. I had Don't Ask Tig and then I had Tig and Cheryl with Cheryl Hines, but that ended. But those both ended. Both of those ended. I was doing those simultaneously and then shut those down and then just went towards handsome, which is the one I'm doing now. But a lot of stand-ups were doing, what were they like, drive-in movie shows where if people thought it was funny, they'd honk or they do Zoom stand-up. And I was like, I love stand-up, but not that much where I'm going to take a honk. Not as much as you loved T. Colin Campbell at the time. This is the weird where our lives intersect in a very strange way. I've had T. Colin Campbell on the podcast way back in the early days. This is, that's my world. It's a very interesting world. And for you to say, just so people understand, you didn't just go vegan or plant-based. You went deep. So far as to get your certificate in plant-based nutrition from the T. Colin Campbell school at Cornell, which is like, it's not a, I know plenty of people who've done that course. I haven't personally, but it's pretty rigorous. It's not a small thing. Not only that, officially, you graduated from seventh grade in school, but on your website, you still have like a, oh, click here to like learn about this. And there's an article that you wrote on like the T. Colin Campbell Nutrition Studies website where you're like student of the month. Did you know that? No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's hilarious. Maybe I do. You've been, this is your academic honor. I know. Well, I ended up getting my GED, my mother and my stepfather were like, if you drop out, you have to get your GED. And so I did, they put such importance in it. And I got it and I left it on the kitchen table and my cat ate it. And so I have what's left of it in a frame in my office at home, because I would tell my parents as like, just so you know, the important certificate ended up in the kitty litter box, ultimately. So yeah, I have two certificates. I have the general education diploma that's eaten by my cat. And then I have the plant-based nutrition certification. And it was really just, I wanted to know more because I was so fascinated by the shift in how I felt. And the, I just, I wasn't in the level of pain that I was in. And so I just wanted to know more. And I also, I don't try to convert people, but if somebody wants to hear about it, I'll talk about it. Yeah. That gets tricky. The culture has shifted a little bit. There was a period of time there where people were all about it. And it seems like people are less all about it right now. Right. So, advocacy shows up in all different forms, but I'm more like you. The prospect of like trying to change somebody's mind is not only difficult, it's sort of futile in a lot of ways. And it's not that interesting to me. Like I'm like you. I'm like, if you want to hear about it, I'm happy to talk to you about it, but I'm not running around chasing people. I had a really fun experience recently where my aunt and uncle drove up and hung out with me and my kids for the day. And my aunt is always like interested in going to vegan restaurants with me and talking about it and trying it for herself. But my uncle is very like, he's grilling and he's, he's meat. But I mean, they accommodate when we come into town or they're up. But we went to a vegan restaurant and he was very happy with his meal. And then afterwards, the waiter asked if anybody wanted dessert. And everyone was like, oh, no, thank you. And my aunt said, because she had been at that restaurant before, she goes, oh, I remember the key lime pie being so good. And my uncle was like, key lime pie, what, what, how do they make that? And I said, I think it's like avocados and lime juice. And he was like, and I said, you should try it. And he was like, no, no, thank you. And I said, you know what, let's just get a piece. And then if you don't want any, everyone else will eat it. So we get a piece. He is like, I can't believe it. He was like, this is, and I was like, yeah. And he was like, smiling, laughing while he's eating. He loved it so much. And he said, I would love to try and make this. And I said, well, they have a cookbook. And I said, I'd love to get you the cookbook. And he was like, no, no, no. And I said, no, I would, if you really would love to make this, I really want to get you the cookbook. This was recent. This was maybe a week ago. They went to Arizona for their grandson's wedding. They're sending me pictures of vegan restaurants they're going to, restaurants with vegan options. They're having vegan sushi, sending me pictures. Like this was delicious. You know, my uncle's like, wow, this was, he has the cookbook. That's wild. He is making the key lime pie. And he's sending me every picture of the whole process. He was like, I took the cream from the key lime pie and I used it in my coffee this morning. And that was even delicious. And I was just telling my wife, Stephanie, on the way here, I was like, it's so makes sense with my uncle. Cause he's like very scientific and an engineer and he builds guitars and he just likes to know how everything works. And that I think really applies with vegan food, plant-based food is that's what I find so fascinating too is what they can do with the ingredients. In ways that you can't, you're like, how is this possible? You know, I don't know if you know, my wife had a plant-based cheese company called Shremu. And I was like, what is this sorcery? Like, okay, it's past shoes and like it tastes like this. Like, I don't understand how you do this, you know. And I'm not saying my uncle's going to be vegan now, but I can see he's, I can see him so interested. He's doing the math in his brain. Yeah. Look at you. You're just inspiring people on all different kinds of ways all the time. It's so exciting to me to get his little photos because I mean, he hasn't really texted me much before, but man, is he on a texting tear with his plant-based meals. But it was the gentle touch. It wasn't like, you need to understand. It was like, oh, we're going to go here and like, I'll maybe try it or, you know, like trusting people to, you know, go on their own journey with these things. And we do that with our sons too. They're nine and we tell them, you guys can eat whatever you want. You can try whatever you want. We just don't have animal products in our house. And every now and then at birthday parties or school events, they'll grab a cookie or a cupcake. But in general, their teachers and their friends' parents are like, I'm so impressed. They're like, they really are proud that they eat the way that they do. That's cool. Yeah. That'll change. Sure. But we just, we don't want to be rigid with them. Yeah, of course. I think that's, that's smart. You just, you, yeah, this is the way we do it. And then letting them have their experience when they're outside of the house so that they have agency. And, you know, all you can do is teach them good habits. And then it's up to them to figure out, you know, who they are and all that kind of thing. As my stepfather said. Yeah, exactly. You're just, see, you're walking in the shoes of it. Very different shoes, but, but yeah. Most wearables tell you what happened. How good was your sleep? Where's your recovery at? Did you hit your steps? But they don't really tell you why, let alone what to really do about it. That is, except for whoop, which gives you a complete picture of your health from how you sleep to how you recover to how you're aging. And now, and this is huge, the new whoop advanced labs brings together over 65 key biomarkers like cholesterol, vitamin D and cortisol with more than 100,000 daily health data points from wearing the device. When you schedule a lab test, you're not getting a spreadsheet that you don't understand. You're getting clarity on what's really happening inside your body and concrete next steps to improve your health. 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It had just happened, right? And you make this, had happened pretty close to that moment. A few days before the show. It was that close. And you decide you're going to go on stage and talk about it, and you basically walk out on stage and say, hello, I have cancer. That was a risk. This becomes like this legendary set that you do. Basically, I got my diagnosis, which was the final blow of that four month period of time. And I thought, I can't do that. I was just devastated. I was leveled. I couldn't believe after everything that had happened. And so I called Flanagan, the owner of Largo, and just said, I can't do my show on Friday or Saturday, whatever it is. And he said, well, don't cancel it. Let's just leave it open in case you change your mind. And I thought, this guy's nuts. Did he not hear me? And so sure enough, when it came, because he said, you could cancel the second before you go on stage, but let's just leave it open. And man, was he right? The day of the show, I was like, yeah, I want to go on stage. And because I was very much in touch with that feeling of, I've seen how quickly life slips away. And I didn't know if I'd ever be able to do stand up again. So I just wanted to go for it another time. And I had talked to Ira Glass, the host of This American Life before. And I had done a segment on his show previously about running into the pop singer, Taylor Dane, over and over. And he said, we need a follow up. The audience loves that bit. What's your follow up? And I was like, man, I'm really sick. And he said, why don't you record your show tonight? See if Largo will record it. And if there's something there, maybe we could use that. And typically, there's no recordings at Largo. No. I mean, they definitely don't film anything, but even recording audio is like a big no no. Unless they do it, unless it's like decided beforehand. But they're very much a lockdown kind of venue. And so I said, and this was for Ira, I said, can we just record it? Ira was thinking maybe I said, because I'm going to talk about what's been going on in my life. And so they did, they recorded it. And I remember sending Ira the audio saying, I don't know, maybe there's a couple of minutes you'd want. And he was like, he was like, this whole thing, he was like, I was like, I was too close to it. I was like, you like that? I didn't, I was so confused. And then also after doing the show that night, it went viral. And I didn't have a clue. I was so like somebody's great great grandmother. I was barely on social media. I didn't even know how it went viral because There was nothing to the idea went viral. Not like, yeah, not the content. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody was sharing because there were a lot of, a lot of well-known people there. Yeah. That were spread the word about it. On the show that didn't know I had been sick or had gone through all that I was going through. And so they were a little stunned listening. And then people in the audience were tweeting about it. The performers were tweeting. And so I woke up the next day. I remember that night I went to a diner with my friends, Beth and Rick and some other people. And we were just like, wow, that was a crazy show. Because I was up there talking about the death of my mother and having cancer and all of this stuff. And then I went to bed like three in the morning. I woke up the next day and my, I had like 10 million voicemail like truly like, what the hell? So many emails. I had book deal offers. I had all sorts of what happened. I did not know what happened. And people were like, oh, the story went viral overnight. And I was like, what does that mean? What went viral? And yeah, it was wild. And what was the consequence of that for you? Like what did that set in motion? Well, it was very weird timing because I was about to have surgery. I was about to start, you know, all of my recovery. Didn't cure you of cancer. No, no, it didn't. It was a very interesting time because I was thrust into the spotlight when I was at my lowest. And I was so uncomfortable. I remember it was a fun appearance, but I went on Conan right after I had my surgery because I wanted to tell everyone I was okay. Because I didn't know what to do with this attention on me, even though I was still, I mean, I had, it was hard to get my t-shirt on, you know, to go on to Conan. And I was still like holding my pants up. But I was like, can I go on there? Just I wanted to announce to the world, don't worry about me. I'm okay. And I was to some degree, but I was also in a lot of physical and emotional pain still. Part of why the performance was so impactful was that you were saying, I'm not okay. You know, in this experience of powerlessness and confusion and not knowing what was going to happen, it was a way of you exercising agency over it. Like I get to decide what this means to me and taking this creative and professional risk to be so open about what was happening in a way where you were taking ownership of it. That's like at odds with going on Conan and trying to pretend like everything is fine, right? Everything was at odds. I was really, my head was spinning. I was trying to keep working in ways. I was trying to take care of my body. I was trying to deal with the attention that was on me. And I just was spinning for quite a while, even when I thought I was okay. Even it just was a long process of getting through that. It was any moment that I thought I was doing better or breaking through the confusion. Because again, my mother was gone. It was massive and losing my relationship and all of that. I had great friends and the public embraced me and I was so lucky. But it took me a long time to find my footing again. Looking back on that, what was it about what you said on stage that was so impactful to the audience? Like why did it catch fire? Do you have an explanation or a sense of that? I think it was partly that people are so interested in reality shows and social media, where you get a peek into people's lives. And this was happening real time. This wasn't like a set I had worked on over and over. It was really me walking up there going, essentially asking for help from the audience. Not some perfected act that you had been working on. You just got up there and laid it all out. No. I really, and I said it in my documentary that I knew there was, this was another risk. Like I said, to go on stage and share this, I didn't know if it was going to be funny and I didn't know if I was going to bomb and then just disappear into the darkness and die. And people would be like, well, I saw her last show. That was awkward. That was weird. I also think people, there's so much in that set that people can relate to. Everybody's, most people have lost a relationship and everyone's been affected by cancer, the loss of a parent. And it's, yeah, it was voyeuristic, I think too, for people like, whoa. It was raw. What is it about Largo that makes that place so special? I wish I knew. It is so special. It's pretty legendary. I mean, I remember before I even moved to Los Angeles, there would just be these stories about John Bryan and Amy Mann and Elliot Smith and like these legends. But what makes it so cool is the casual vibe to it. It's kind of this cool kids club. And it was shocking to me when I moved to Los Angeles that, for a lot of the shows, it's not that hard to get tickets. You can go all the time and there's people that have like seasoned tickets basically and they just go to everything. And it is this community hub where artists have the permission to get up on stage, kind of half cocked. Like the expectation isn't that you're getting some polished thing. It's generally people who are working on stuff or you're seeing a more unvarnished, experimental version of what this person does. Yeah. Yeah. It's, there's so many performers that are not regulars there that will pop in on a show and they're like, I'm so intimidated. Like this is Largo and it's, you can't overthink it because the audience is there. They're open. They're ready to go. They want to see whatever you got. And I do think that if you're showing up with your polished show. Yeah. That's not going to go over so well. They're not looking for that. Yeah. That's not the place for that. Right. Yeah. But, they want a good show. And it's retained its coolness over the years, which is rare. Usually these things kind of like come and go. They're not able to like hold on to that sensibility. I mean, yeah, especially in Los Angeles, it's like I was telling my therapist the other day that there's so many things in this city where you go, and look, I love and appreciate Los Angeles, but there is a feeling of like, is this real? Like, are you my friend? Are you really my friend? Or do I like really, am I really, is this, when I was walking down the street in my neighborhood the other day, it kind of amused me in a sad way that like, if somebody took down the entire street, I was walking, like while I was walking, and I found out it was just a set, wasn't even, I'd be like, oh, right. That wasn't even real. Like, my neighborhood isn't even real. This is, what is real? And people move from like, oh, this is the cool restaurant or, oh, I'm excited about our friendship or I want you on this show. And then it'll change so fast. And you're like, wait, I thought we were friends or I thought this was, this is restaurant is delicious or this coffee shop, nope, not anymore. But yeah, Largo, steady Eddie. Steady, I know. That's, that's what's, I mean, it's what's cool, but it's also confusing. It's so anachronistic with this city. Yeah. You have no explanation as to why though. No, I think Flanagan, the owner, he really, he takes it very seriously, like what comes in, it's kind of like what you're saying about the algorithm. There's no algorithm. He's the king maker. He gets to decide. Yeah. And he curates. Yeah. The way he curates the lineup, he seems to know what he's doing. And he doesn't care. Like when people show up and they're like, I'm so in, like I had a manager once embarrassingly that he had recently signed me and he was late to my show and he was like causing this big ruckus. And like, do you know who I am? And I'm Tiggs manager. I was so embarrassed because I'm like, this is not, this is not the vibe. And first of all for me or this venue. And I remember Flanagan being like, this guy is a tool. He doesn't care how famous you are, who you are. He wants a focused audience and a good show on stage. And that is really the only focus. How long did you stay with that manager? Gosh, maybe a year. And he was like the first really powerful person that I kind of got the attention of. It was more, his wife was a fan. That was that entryway. She was like a big fan and wanted her husband to sign me and he did and you know, whatever. Yeah. You mentioned therapy. I saw that trailer for the group therapy documentary. I haven't watched it yet. Is it up yet? I don't think it's, is it, is it already, it's already, it's already available? Yeah. I don't know what, I don't know where it is. Maybe it's Amazon or something. Yeah. I'm not sure. I don't know. What's going on with that documentary? And what is going on with mental health more broadly, like within the comedy community? Like, do you have to have some kind of mental health situation going on to be an effective comic? See, I don't believe that. You seem pretty balanced and grounded. Well, I've been working at that. I, like I said, I wasn't, and I don't know who I was before 2012, but I've never believed that you have to be miserable or struggling to be funny. I think you have. Like depressed or neurotic. No. Like all of those tropes. I really don't. I think that when people like to put that on comedians or musicians or artists or whatever, I really, all I can think about is everybody's dealing with that stuff. Everybody's got cuckoo parents or anxiety or depression. We're the ones with the microphone. And so it's easy to blame us. Like, oh, they're going through a lot and they're, you know, people can look at artists and just kind of be like, wow, they're miserable. They're depressed. They're struggling. They're just wearing it on their sleeve. Right. Right. And because if you go next door, or you talk to your mail carrier or the pilot of your plane, you're going to find cancer, alcoholism, depression. It's everywhere. We just have the microphone. And I feel like it's not that you have to be miserable and depressed. It's you have to be living a real life, I think, in order to get material. And I'm not like living a real life to get material, but you have to be in the world. You have to be in the world. But I just, I don't believe that you have to be a miserable person. What is your writing process? How do you know when something is funny? I think it's just an extra sense. It's funny going to dinners or parties where it's not entertainment or comedy people and they're like, a comedian's here. Oh, I better watch what I'm saying. Oh, I'm going to end up in their set. And I'm like, if you're not, like chances are you're not going to end up in my set. It's so... You're not that interesting and you're not that funny. Well, it's not even that. It's just, it's so rare for me. I mean, maybe, and there probably are comedians that everything strikes them or they are looking for bits, but I'm just hanging out with people. And if something happens, that extra sense, I'm like, oh, that could be, that's funny. And it's never necessarily the obvious thing. And I'll just make a little note on a napkin and revisit it. But I don't... A napkin? That's your process in napkin. Like I had Burbiglia in here and he brought a notebook and it's sitting here and he's like, oh, I don't go anywhere without this. He's like... He went to Georgetown. I've got a seventh grade education, so I've got a paper napkin for Burbiglia's gut. He's the best, man. He's like... I took him to dinner one night because I was like, you blow my mind. How are you this prolific? And I really... I'm like, tell me everything. And he continues to just churn out. Yeah, he's pretty great. He really is. And but yeah, I don't sit down and I always say if, not if, but when I die, you're not going to find the lost writings of Tig Notaro. Yeah, the papers. The dirty... The papers of Tig Notaro. Yeah. A bunch of napkins. Like what are you assembling these napkins? Like how does it find its way from the napkin onto a page onto some kind of set that gets worked on? I wish I knew, Rich. I don't know. There's no method. No. Sometimes I find a napkin and I'm like, tube sock. What was that about? And I'll be like, Stephanie, did I say something about a tube sock? And she's like, I have no idea. I'm like, wow, okay. But I also have that faith that if something is really funny, it's gonna... It'll come back up. It sticks around. Yeah. It'll pop back up because whatever it was about that tube sock, well, it'll happen again. But yeah, I just... I'll just try different things out and if it sticks and I remember it, then it feels worth continuing to work on. And are you somebody who is regimented like, okay, this is the time of day where I sit down and where I... Like how does that work? I do all my writing. In your work life balance, which is like, this is to spell that illusion right now. There is no... This is... I think it's a violence on people. We're all walking around trying to be balanced. It's... Nobody's balanced. No, no. But I'll tell you what, I have way more... That's what I'm saying is like... I don't think it's balance. It's groundedness and presence in what you're doing and making sure that you're... You're never gonna be able to show up and have all of these things in proper order every single day, especially when you have kids and you're married and... No, my son got sick this morning. It's complicated professional life. Yeah. So we hold ourselves to that standard and then we feel bad about ourselves, where I think the solution is really like, okay, well, this is what I'm doing right now and I can't control the external world and I'm just gonna be focused on this and okay with the fact that these other things are not getting attended to right now. For sure. But all of the things that I can control of like, whether it's what I'm eating or how much work, how much time I'm spending away from home working, I do have control over that. And my cancer could return. But you don't have control over that. I don't, but what I do have control over is investing the time and energy into... I exercise every day. I believe I'm eating a healthy diet. Certainly throw some cupcakes and cookies in there, but I'm sure there's no peak balance like you're saying, but the place that I've gotten to now, I would say I'm happier and more fulfilled than ever on a very genuine real level and in a present way. So the writing process. Doesn't exist. I go on stage. You just with a napkin and just freewheeling it. Come on. Yeah, truly. I write everything on stage. I will write a word or a phrase to trigger my memory, but look, your producer, that's how I ended up here. He's seen me scramble around on stage. Yeah. But when you're doing a special or like a full hour or something like that, obviously you've been working on this for a long time. It's evolved. For sure. And you're just sort of memorizing it as you go and you just have keywords to trigger the next thought. By that point, when I'm doing a special, I know what has stuck and what works, and then I just naturally carry that to the special. But when I'm touring and I have my napkins and I'm, man, when I'm in a hotel room and I finished a set and I throw a napkin away, I really try and like dispose of it. So the housekeeper doesn't come across it and think I'm a psychopath because it's like the napkin is like, yeah, like tube sock, brass cancer, kitty litter. It's like, what was that day going to be like for this person? Or what was that day? But is there another napkin lying around somewhere? Like if you throw it out, then how are you going to remember next time? Because I have... It's all chambered up here? No, when I have the idea, the word, the phrase, and I write it on a napkin, I'll transfer that to a bigger napkin. There's no computers involved. No, there is a computer involved that I move that a word or phrase to a new material document, but it's not, I don't have all of the wording written out. I just have tube sock, brass cancer, kitty litter. That's not really my material, but anymore. But so yeah, it'll go to that document and then I'll look through the document and I'll think, oh, maybe I'll throw out this thing or I'll try that or I don't feel like this has legs, but maybe if I scramble around on stage with it for a little bit, I'll find something. And then those will go to a little piece of paper and then I'll find that these things worked and this didn't. And it's just a whole moving around process to see. But once I'm taping my special... You're locked in at that point. Yeah, I'm totally locked in. So unique about stand up as an art form is that the artist can't create without the feedback from the audience. That gestation process is a communal experience. A painter goes away and paints, and here's my painting or somebody writes a song, same thing, but you need the audience in order to hone the material and craft it. There's no other way around that. Unless you're Maria Bamford, do you know Maria? Yeah. She's one of my favorites. I mean, I don't know her personally. I know who she is. I mean, she does sessions where... I mean, there's a lot of people who are like, she's the funniest person on the planet earth. Oh, she is. She's just a freak of nature. I mean, seeing Maria kill or bomb is a delight. She doesn't matter. I mean... Because if she bombs, it's probably as is the form of entertainment. For me, yeah. I'm like, oh my gosh, and I feel bad for the audience because they... If they're not getting it. And it's not like I see Maria Bam all the time, but she is somebody that will sit... This is classic Maria. She is... There's nobody else like her walking this planet. She will come up with her new hour and she'll invite a random fan from the internet to sit down with her at a coffee shop and she'll just tell them her hour. That's it. Yeah. She's like, I should probably run this by one person before I get up on stage. Yeah, yeah. With Starbucks. I'm like, I cannot imagine in a million years going to Starbucks. No. But yeah. The confidence. Is it even confidence? I mean, to know... This is what it is. I'm going to go up and do this. I don't need to workshop it 100 times. I mean, she workshops it, but when she's like, I got to really sit down and see if what I've workshopped is at its peak level. Let me sit down with Carol from the valley and see what she thinks over a brand muffin. There's something about that dynamic that I think is instructive as a tool for life. You have to engage with other people and be vulnerable and share something. And they're going to be honest with you about what they think. And then you have to internalize that, which when you think about culture right now and the extent to which we're divided and increasingly unable to talk to each other, like I feel like this is an important life skill. And it's one of the reasons why I like Mike Berbiglia's podcast so much. It's called Working It Out. And it's two artists sitting across from each other, like sharing their work and giving honest feedback about where they think each other is at with it. And it's practicing this process of what it's like to give people constructive criticism and see somebody receive that and not be defensive, but actually excited by, oh my god, we can make this better. That's a good idea. And I think there's something about that that we can all benefit from in the way we interact with just average people in our lives. One million percent. It's like, I think it's, I love surrounding myself with people that are smarter than me, that have different ideas and just, I mean, not too different. Let's be clear. Let's be really clear. Let's set the stage. Yeah. I just mean like creatively, I'm so curious. And my wife and I work so closely together and we give each other notes and she's about the only person that I'm interested in. Mainly because she's always so right on and her taste is so good. And she'll be like, oh, what if you did this or maybe drop that or, and look, she's not writing my material. I mean, she has like when I host award shows and she knows my voice very well, but with just my stand up, I'm so interested in what she has to say or just collaborating when I had my, I had a show, One Mississippi, and it was so fun to sit in a writer's room and challenge each other with our different life experiences and perspectives that I believe ultimately made that show so much better than if it was just me going, no, this is, I mean, it wasn't, it was loosely based on my life story. And what was fun was having people take these topics and the writers add their experience in each little area that it was really fun and it's a process of letting go and being open to hearing about edits or hearing about additions to stories or, I love collaborating. I really do. Have you ever had the experience of doing that with Pyroglass? Doing what? Like having him give you feedback on your material, because I've heard him do it with Mike on his podcast and I was like, wow, like that guy has laser vision. And he was right on? Yeah, he was helping Mike with something. I mean, it's kind of a legendary podcast episode where you realize like, oh, this guy is like, you know, dialed in. Yeah, he, well, first of all, he's who, as I said, encouraged me to record my show and I thought he was as crazy as Flanagan was for telling me to keep the show open in case I wanted to do it. I thought they were both nuts. And his instinct was exactly correct. Yeah. And I was borderline offended at the time because I was so scared and in a vulnerable place. I was like, these guys just want me to like record my material and do my show and I'm like so sad and pain. But yeah, Ira was like, this could be such an incredible show where you, whatever he was saying that I didn't necessarily trust him. I didn't necessarily trust Flanagan. And then when I came through the other side, I was like, what was my problem? But in a reverse story, Ira challenged me in a way where he told me he was wrong. And that was a fun moment for me to have Ira say, you are right. Oh, there was something that you disagreed about. And well, yeah, he, when I was in New York, he came to see me live and to see my Taylor Dane story. Because he had heard about it. And he was like, oh, maybe we could use that on this American life. And so he came and saw it. And he was like, you know, I really enjoy that story. He said, but I don't think it's going to work for this American life because you have so many moments you act out and your face expressions. He said, I feel like the audience needs to see that, to really understand. And I said, I think you're wrong. And he was like, really? He said, why is that? And I said, because when I was a kid, and I was listening to Steve Martin or Paula Poundstone or any of Richard Pryor, any of these comedians, my brain, I wasn't seeing them. I was listening to their albums. And I didn't, I was never lost. And I'm sure they were acting things out, making face expressions. But your brain creates, fills in the gaps. Yeah, it allows your imagination. And so and he teases me now that I told him how radio works. That's really funny. But I ended up doing that story. He was like, you're right. He said, let's give it a try. And so that's, and you did it on stage live. I did it for him for that show. Yeah, they did a live performance that was beamed around into different movie theaters. So you could listen to the audio or you could, I don't know, tune it. I don't even remember how they did it, but you could watch it. Oh, you just went to, how did it happen? You went to movie theaters? Or? I don't remember. I mean, it's on YouTube right now. You can just watch it. It's epic. It's pretty, it's a pretty great story. And it's true. You still continue to run into her as she's still around? My wife ran into her once. See, she is, it's so easy to trip over Taylor Dane. And that was the other thing is people say, people would tell me she was a big pop star in the 80s. She was. Nobody in early 90s and people don't know who she is anymore. So the, which isn't true. You know her songs and, you know, but yeah, she's not like in the forefront of pop music right now, but she's a huge part. Right. If you're in our general age group, like you definitely know who she is. Yeah. Even if you don't know the name, you know the songs. And so my point is you don't have to know who Taylor Dane is. People don't know my mother. People don't know my wife or kids, but I still, that's my job is to set up who this person is. And then. It just becomes an avatar. Oh, this is a well-known person from a certain period of time. And like just the fact that you're perpetually running into her and, and like replaying out this same, you know, dynamic with her time and time again. Like that's it. You don't need to, yeah, it doesn't matter. Yes. It just became so ridiculous. All of the run-ins and all of the different responses from her. But after, I haven't run into her since I told that story, it was like. You purged yourself. Yeah. Like spiritually, this is, this is complete. Oh my God, there's so many. But did you, you knew when, that she was going to come out on stage after you tell the story and perform or was that a surprise? Wouldn't you like to know? I know you're not going to say. No, I'm not going to say. Yeah. I mean the interaction, like your energy around her when she comes out is, I mean, you kind of do have to see that part. Yeah. Yeah. Well, she, it's funny because when I, I didn't know I had cancer yet. Ira and I had been planning this performance for a while. And, and I truly told him like, I don't even know if I'm going to be alive. Like I was really struggling with C-diff still. And again, didn't know I had, it was so crazy because I was lying in the hospital, dealing with C-diff for so long. And I remember the doctor saying, like, I'm so confused. Most people that have this are very young or very old or very sickly. And he was like, you're not any of those things. Meanwhile, we didn't know I had invasive cancer. So essentially your immune system was so compromised for reasons you didn't know why yet. And that was contributing to the, or possibly like had some relationship with the C-diff. Yeah. I was, I was, I was really, I was struggling. And, and so when Ira was like, you know, the show is coming and we've been planning to do it and I'm, I'm heading towards it. But I was like, I might be a skeleton or dead by the time because I was losing half a pound a day. I was really, really having a hard time. But I had met with a nutritionist who thankfully helped me turn that around. And, and along with the help of my doctors and everything, but I really did not think I would be there. And then I was diagnosed after that performance. And Taylor Dane reached out to me hearing that I had cancer and she just, it was so funny and so nice because she said, I want you to know, if you ever need anything, call me at any time. And after that conversation, I was, I made me laugh thinking, what if I really did follow up on that? And I reached out to Taylor Dane all the time and I was like, hey, it's TIG. I can't sleep. Hey, it's TIG. I'm not feeling well. Like, would she really be there for me? But, uh, yeah. So she was, and what I loved about her was, you know, so many people deny certain behaviors or I didn't do that. No. When I met her and she heard the different run-ins that we had, because she didn't, I wasn't known when I was having these run-ins with her because people were like, I'm sure she knew who you. And I was like, no, this was over years of me being just like an up and coming comedian. But when I met her and she heard that story, all of those stories of running into her, she was like, yeah, that sounds like me. Yeah, I probably had a couple of drinks. Yeah. And I really appreciated that she didn't deny. She wasn't trying to finesse you, but she didn't, she wasn't recalling the experiences either. No. I don't think it was anything interesting or extraordinary in her life. She was just having lunch or she was just someplace and, you know, she's like, yeah, I was, I was probably bitchy. Well, she just was like, yeah. Dismissive. She was just like, yeah, that sounds about right. And I was like, oh, I like that. It seems like that show where you performed that, at least based on watching the documentary, that was like an anchor. Your health is ailing, but you needed that as a North Star to work towards. It was like this lifeline. You were going to make it happen to just prove to yourself that you were still vital. Yeah. I really wanted to be there. I really wanted to do that show because Ira and I had been talking about it and working on it for so long. And I mean, I wasn't the only performer, but yeah, it was, it was a driving force for me. It seems like comedy, the stand-up comedy world, comedians in general. Like this is, you know, it's reached a level of like cultural saturation and awareness. Like it's, it's, you've been doing this for a long time. You know, anybody who shows up at any of these clubs, you've known these people forever, right? And it seems like we're in a moment where, and maybe it's just my bubble that I'm in, but I don't think so. I think like there's an interest in this world that, that is kind of feels like it's at a high peak right now. Is that true? Do you think that? Yeah. I just think people are talking about comedians. There's so many specials. These specials are very popular. Like comedy is in a good place, I think, in terms of how many people are, you know, consuming it and interested in it. But, you know, there's other stuff going on. There's the intersection of politics into the comedy podcast landscape and all of that that complicates it. I think, but Really? Complicated? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's, it's weird that like now everyone is super interested in what comedians think about politicians, but you know, we don't, I don't know how deep we want to go into that. But I'm just saying from your perspective of being like inside this world and someone who has been inside of it for so long, like seems like it's a good time to be a comedian. I guess in ways, yeah, it is like, as far as, yeah, as you said, people finding an interest and turning out for it and, but on the inside of it all, there is such a, there's many fractures that aren't. It doesn't feel like a united community in the way that it used to. Yeah. It feels very politically and socially divided in a way that I don't really recognize. But I'm also, I'm a little removed from it because I'm not in the scene like I used to be. I used, I was always confused by comedians. It would be like, yeah, I'd just rather be home with my family. I'd be like, that's weird. But that's how I feel. You chose the wrong path, like the wrong career for that. Yeah. I just, it just didn't make sense. Like, why would you not want to be in this comedy club all night sitting, doing sets or sitting at the bar talking to some like, you know, smelly bearded guy that, you know, you just did a set with like, and look, I love, I have so many smelly bearded friends. No, no, no judgment of the different creatures in comedy. I'm one myself, but I just, the division is, it's just not fun. And it's, but also I feel like I'm just not in it because I do go out and do my set. I'm a comedian that walks in the back door moments before I walk on the stage. I don't. And then you just do your thing and you're back out the door. And then I head out. I usually do a seven o'clock show. So I can be in my house or my hotel room by 830. So I can get good sleep. So I can talk to Stephanie on the phone or in person or put my kids to bed. That has become my focus. So I know it's going on in the standup world to some degree, but I do feel like a little bit of an outsider in the way that I'm, I'm just not in that, deeply in the mix anymore. And as, you know, in the level of outsider-ness that I am, it just, it, it doesn't really look that fun or appealing. But I don't know. I don't know if it's my age or my family or my, I don't know what it is, but I feel a little removed. But I just go in and do my set, head home. But this is still the workmanship. Like this is an essential aspect of being able to do what you do. You got to be able to, you know, go to the, go to these places, get up on stage, work your stuff out. But there's like a whole flywheel, like just looking at your career from like a professional or an entrepreneurship perspective. It's like, you have the standup, you have the touring, you have the specials, you have the podcast, then there's documentaries. I want to talk about the upcoming documentary. Like there's a lot, you know, like it's, it's now like really, it's, it's like you're running, you know, like a, like you have to run like an enterprise to keep all of this going. I'm sure, you know, like it's, there's a lot of moving pieces, I guess is what I'm saying. It's not just one thing, like, oh, I'm a standup comic and I go to the club and do my deal. Yeah. It's a much bigger world. And I remember years ago, kind of in my first few years, I remember Sarah Silverman saying to me, you know, it's a lot of comedians get caught in just doing standup and then they don't try other things out and you might enjoy something else. And so I thought, oh, that's interesting. Cause yeah, I didn't, I never thought like, oh, I'm going to act or direct or produce. I thought that was for somebody else. But there was a thing in the earlier days of like, oh, you, like you do your standup and then, you know, one day you'll go on Conan or one of these shows and a lot of people will see you and then, you know, pilot season will come and hopefully you can get on a sitcom. Like that was sort of the path, right? For a lot of people. It was, but I didn't even, I wasn't even aware of that. I didn't think about it because I was so in, it never dawned on me that even though I knew these sitcom actors were standups, I didn't, I just didn't think about, oh, they, I was just in like Texas or Colorado and, but I was following standup. I wasn't really following Brett Butler's standup. Well, if there was a division back then, it was like the standup standup people who are doing it for the art of standup and the people who were using it as a launch pad to get on a TV show. Well, yeah. When I say Brett Butler standup, I was following Brett Butler standup, but I didn't connect that, oh, these people, these standups got sitcoms that they're the star. I just didn't think about it. And I remember when I first moved to LA and I was doing standup and people would say, oh, and then what do you ultimately want? And I was like, what do you mean? Because even doing an open mic, I thought I had made it. I was like, I can't believe I'm doing three minutes of standup. I, it just blew my mind. And yeah, I was asked all the time, then what, but then what? I was like, then I want to get better. And then, but then what, then I, well, then I want to do a bigger venue. But then, but what's all, and I was like, what are you asking me? I was so confused. And, and that's what they were looking for was for me to say, oh, then I want my own sitcom. Then I want to have this. And I just, I didn't have that interest. I didn't even move to LA to do standup. I moved to LA because my childhood best friends that we've been close and we've moved everywhere where they were going to college and following their dreams. And I was a dropout failure, just going wherever they went. And then they wanted to move to LA to produce TV and film. And I was like, I'll go with you. And I, but then I saw the standup opportunity and then I tried it out. And now I'm here 30 years later. I mean, there's a lot in that. I mean, first of all, what was the initial impetus to look at that and be like, oh, I want to try that. Well, I had always been obsessed with standup. And it's really funny because most people say, do not move to LA or New York until you're ready as a comedian. And I had such a different experience of ending up in Los Angeles that I would actually say it's the opposite. Go to LA in New York because there's so much opportunity that you can fly under the radar forever doing open mics at coffee shops and laundromats and bars. And it's not like there's agents, talent scouts at the laundromat. But there are a lot of talented people around you who you can learn from. For sure. And there's a lot of, I think there's more opportunity for people to get on stage and try out new material in smaller towns and other cities. But at the time when I started, I was living, I had just moved from Colorado to Los Angeles. And in Denver, there weren't open mics in all of these random places. There was the main club and they had an open mic. And if you did well, they would ask you back. And to me, that was more intimidating than flying under the radar in Los Angeles. And so, yeah, I just, as soon as I moved to LA with my friends who were moving here for to be producers, I opened the LA weekly and I was like, oh my gosh, there's standup all over the place. And so I went and watched for a couple of weeks and everybody who's interested in standup, I thought, oh, I could do this. And so, yeah, here I am. I mean, the second piece of what you shared about not having this driving vision of where you were headed, like just like, I'm here to be good at this and see if I can get better, there's this tension between your career or whatever creative thing that you're trying to master is going to lead you in the best direction by just focusing on the quality of what you're doing and being open to opportunities that come because ultimately, if the thing is good, like all of that will come. And on the other side of that, like having a sense of like, oh, well, I'm here and here's where I want to head in order to get there. I have to do all of these things. Like I think you kind of need both of those, but there is something beautiful about like just focusing on what you can control and then being available for whatever the universe decides to put in your path. I felt very open and again, I'm thankful that Sarah kind of mentioned, try other things out. And I have and I've really enjoyed finding out what I don't want to do. That's been such a pleasure to check things out and be like, oh my God, no, thank you. Whoa, whoa, this is one of those. I think directing, I mean, I've enjoyed, I've directed stand-up specials, comedy specials, my own and others. And that's a process that is manageable. My wife and I, I mean, I've directed short films and I directed an episode of my TV show and my wife and I co-directed a movie called, Am I Okay? starring Dakota Johnson. And I'm so glad I have that experience. But man, when you are the director of a massive production like that, I was sitting there and somebody would come up and be like, hi, Tig, sorry to bother you. Do you want the glasses here or here? And I'm like, I can barely give a shit, you know, whereas Stephanie is like a thousand times a day of that. Every department, every department is coming and asking every question. Whereas Stephanie, who is a director through and through, she's like, oh, the glasses should be here because the character, she has a whole, there's so many, and I'm like... You take it from here. Yeah. Like I'm in such a basic way interested in the performance and she is too, but she's also passionate about, should it be a pink or red pen that's on the table in this scene? And she can tell you why. And it's such a pleasure to watch. And it's also a pleasure to realize, I don't need to do this again. Does it work that way in the home? What do you mean? She knows exactly where the pen should go. She does. And I have to say, I mean, she's often right where that pen should go. And she's 15 years younger than me and I'm just floored by her awareness and her taste and her, she's just beyond her years. I'm so thankful. I'm so thankful that she is my spouse. Beautiful. Documentaries, producing documentaries is something you say yes to though. So talk about the upcoming documentary about the poet. Andrea Gibson. It's called Come See Me in the Good Light and it comes out on Apple TV, November 14th. It is, as I said, I've been in this business for almost 30 years and I would say this is the thing I'm most proud of. And Andrea, I met in Colorado 25 years ago, something like that. And I was not and I have never been in the poetry world. When I met Andrea, when Andrea was in this group called Vox Feminista, which was a social activist, political activist group in Boulder that was just preaching to the choir. But it was fun to go to these shows because it was a poet and comedian and musician just talking about all different sorts of issues. But when I met Andrea backstage, I was like, somebody said, oh, this is Andrea Gibson. Andrea's a poet. And I was like a poet. Andrea looked so familiar to me, from the gay community to the music world or even comedy, just cool and tattoos. And I was like, poet, interesting. And then Andrea went on stage and I was like, my mind was blown. The depth that this person went to, to the lightness and humor, I was truly floored. And anyway, Andrea was diagnosed with ovarian cancer a few years ago that they beat and it came back and they beat and it came back. And I was on the phone with our mutual friend, Steph Willen, who is a remarkable human being. And we were trying to figure out how to get Andrea's podcast edited and produced and all the while, I mean, Andrea had such an incredible group of supportive friends that were trying to help Andrea through this tough time in life and like boots on the ground in Boulder with doctors appointments and trying to get Andrea's will in place and just everything, remarkable friends that loved Andrea so much. But Steph and I were on the phone, again, talking about Andrea's podcast and Steph said, you know, I feel like Andrea's life would make a really great documentary. And it was like, hold the phone moment. I could see everything, just a I'm not somebody and I guess I wasn't somebody before Andrea passed away who leaned in the woo woo world. And I can't say I fully am, but this has really tested me because when I say I saw this movie, as soon as Steph suggested this, I was like, this is going to be incredible. This going to Sundance is going to, I mean, just came into you fully, fully formed. I like a flash of clarity. I mean, so honestly, I was like this, yes, yes, yes. And I reached out to five different people who were in the documentary space and from financiers to directors to producers. And I just said, Hey, I have this old scrappy poet pal who is non binary stage four ovarian cancer in the mountains of Colorado. If you do the slightest deep dive or look at these clips, you're either in or you're out and everyone, it was like, oh, interesting. Let me think about this or oh, I know who Andrea is or oh, I'm not familiar. And the filmmakers who did the Pamela Anderson documentary, actually the director Ryan happened to be at my Largo performance in a weird, bizarre twist of life. He was there, not familiar with me, just was like, oh, I heard she's funny. Come out and I'm like, I have cancer. But anyway, days later, they were on a flight to Colorado. They got it. And they flew out there and started filming. And he said, look, we can't go to streamers or networks or studios. This is not a sparkly Hollywood project. We have to raise the money independently and make the most beautiful film we can make. And we did, we made a beautiful film. And Andrea didn't think that they were going to see the film. But Ryan was said, look, kind of behind Andrea and Andrea's wife, Meg Falley, who is also an incredible poet and human being. He said, we don't need our hero to die. We can wrap up this movie. Andrea can see it. We can submit it to Sundance and other festivals without them knowing and see if we get in. So there's no disappointment. And I've had, I don't know, four or five projects at Sundance. And I have never gotten the feedback that it got in unanimously. And this film got in, I think it was 15 people, jurors, and it got in unanimously. And we went out for the premiere. And Andrea and Meg came out. We got an Airbnb. We just had a, we called it Snuggle Down. We just sat by the fire, had tea, spent time. Andrea was definitely struggling getting up and down stairs, but went to the premiere. The premiere was just magical. You could feel in the room. Everyone felt it so deeply. And there's so many funny parts. Andrea was one of the funniest people. That was the fun part was everything was so precious to Andrea, but then nothing was too precious. And you could really have a deep laugh about really anything with Andrea. And those funny moments, the devastating moments hit so perfectly in that room. And normally when I went to Sundance, it was always, you had to go to do all this press and go to all these important events and other people's screenings. But because we had Andrea there and just limited time, everyone was very aware of, we just spent so much of the time that weekend in our Airbnb and did very targeted appearances at the HBO party and the talk to all the right people. And then we'd get in the car, go back to Snuggle Down. And when I went back to Toronto to film Starfleet Academy, a couple of days later, I got all, there's my phone. Like, can you get on a call? We need to talk. Like, are you available? And I called Stephanie. I was like, oh my God, I think something bad like with Andrea. And she was like, you just have to call. So I call Meg and Andrea. I'm like, because not just them, it was the filmmakers, everybody was calling. And I was like, I was so emotional. What is it? We won. We won Sundance. I was like, what? I like, my emotion had to swing so far the other way, but we had no gauge of how our film was doing because we weren't submerged in the Sundance world. And I was like, what? Like, I needed a second to process. And Ryan, the director, he said, you have to understand. He was like, films like ours don't win. This is even just not documentaries. It's also scripted. It's out of all of the movies. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, it gives me chills right now. It was so, I knew it was a great film, but I thought we were going to be like a sleeper indie film that went to Sundance. Yeah. So you were there for the premiere. I mean, Sundance is two weeks, it goes over two weekends, right? So you weren't there the whole time. You were there for the premiere screening and then you had to get back to work after a couple days of a weekend there. Yeah. So there was a whole other week or whatever. And then they have the award ceremony. Yeah. So Sundance was a memory at that point. Yeah. And you're thinking this news can only be bad. How long after that did they pass away? Sundance was January and Andrea, I guess it was six months later. Andrea died July 14th. Yeah. Well, now I'm very enthusiastic to see the film. I wasn't familiar with them, but when when they passed away, the outpouring of support online was unbelievable. And I felt like I should know who this person is. There were so many people expressing their stories and experiences with Andrea. And I was like, well, obviously this person, obviously meant a lot to a lot of people and artistically stood for something very powerful. Yeah. Yes. You hear poetry and you have a particular idea. How dare you call yourself a poet? Yeah. But Andrea was so, you don't need a college degree to... Oh, you're a poet. I see. Yeah. It wasn't that vibe. It was like, in the documentary, Andrea talks about basically knowing five words and rearranging them with each different poem. But that was kind of the beauty, was how accessible Andrea was and how deeply they could hit you. There was a video that went, maybe you saw it, the Love Letter from the Afterlife. I think so. It was Andrea's final interview and the host had Andrea read a poem to Meg, Andrea's wife, face to face of a Love Letter from the Afterlife. And it was, it's so beautiful. It's so moving. And yeah, people were just sending that around. And then I was, I was there in like that end of life moment. And then having Andrea die. And then Maria Shriver, Oprah Winfrey, all of these people are talking about that scrappy little poet that I met backstage at, it's called Old Main, this theater on the CU campus in Boulder. And just thinking, God, that is, that's something. Didn't see this coming at all. And now there's going to be this movie. So everybody can... Well, that's the other crazy thing is the movie hasn't even come out yet. And it's so exciting to think of how many people will learn about Andrea. But it's also so deeply meaningful to me when people that I know call me and they're like, I had no idea. Or sharing that with somebody that I know personally that didn't know or read or wasn't aware. And they're like, my childhood friend who lives in Dallas, reached out and she was like, TIG, I just, I feel robbed that I didn't get to know this person. But just that my friend is appreciating it now is I don't have any feeling of like, oh, you know, because sometimes people are like, oh, well, I liked them before, like, oh, you're jumping on now? Like, I don't, I mean, I'm excited for anybody to learn about Andrea Gibson. Yeah, this relative, at least from my experience, like relatively obscure person who posthumously, like immediately becomes like this person that everyone's talking about. Well, my wife, Stephanie was saying, she goes, you know, it's so interesting is there's only a few poets that are known by name. And she was like, and Andrea Gibson just cemented themselves into that list. And I mean, Andrea broke through on a massive level when Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach had Andrea on there. And Andrea was also well known in the poetry world was like a full on rock star, put out eight books, I think, and sold out rock clubs and theaters around the world, but hadn't broken through on the level that they did after after that. So, I mean, Andrea bought a house and was very successful, but just was not. The degree of difficulty for a poet to break through into, you know, mainstream cultural awareness is like it's an impossible task. I mean, Amanda Gorman is the only one who's been able to do it. It's nearly impossible. In decades, yeah, essentially. So, yeah, it's, it's wild. When I like, I wish I could, I wish I had footage of me meeting Andrea all those years ago. And if somebody could say, and by the way, the world is going to know about that poem, you know, and now they are, yeah. Back to me, Tig. Yeah. You got spinal fusion surgery. I did. How long ago? 2019. So six years ago, I'm at five months. How are you doing? Recovery and I need advice. What should I be doing? I mean, this weird period where, you know, I've recovered enough where I'm kind of, I'm starting to feel a little normal again. And then I'll be like, oh, whoa, like I'm not normal at all. Or like, suddenly I'll have a weird pain. And I'm like, oh, shouldn't that not be happening? Like, so I just want to trade notes with other people that have had this and get a little counsel. It's really scary because for so long you're told, do not get back surgery. Right? Like, yeah. I mean, yeah, I spent 10 years trying to avoid it. And now I wish I'd gotten it sooner. That's where I was. And then you get it. And then your body doesn't feel right or the same. And then any pain or discomfort, you're like, they botched it. I'm screwed. You know, like that's what I went through. And, and then one day, something inside of me, because I was told, you know, to walk and keep moving, stay active and don't push it. But something in me was like, I'm going to try treading water because I thought that would be a way to strengthen my body without putting too much pressure on my spine. And so I started doing that. And I started at 15 minutes a time. How long into the recovery? I was probably maybe three or four months. I can't remember exactly. So somebody could be like, ha, caught you. It was six months. I don't know. But it was, it was pretty, it, I don't know. It was, it was a few months later. I was wearing the back brace. I was doing slow walks around my neighborhood. But I just thought I need to like strengthen my whole body. And, and so I started treading for 15 minutes. And I was so blown away. I had never treaded water for 15 minutes. I have no reason to do that. And I was like, wow, I'm going to, I'm going to keep treading water for 15 minutes. And so I started doing that. And then once that became like no big deal, I was like, I'm going to do it for 30 minutes. I'm going to do it for 45. And then I got up to an hour and it became this meditative thing for me. I don't put headphones in or anything. I just tread. And I really felt a difference. No doctor told me to do this. Even if people haven't had back surgery, I highly recommend treading water. It's not the only exercise I do, but it's, it's a full body exercise that I really, really feel strengthened just every part of me that started making walking and everything else feel a lot better and smoother. And because I really, like I said, it's just a full body workout. All I can think about right now is the fact that I've now decided that the title of this podcast is going to be Tig Nataro is treading water. I mean, it applies. People will be making their own inferences. Yeah. Why not just like swim or kick with a kickboard, like the treading water thing? Like that's a, I've never heard anyone talk about that. I mean, that's something like you do, like old ladies do, or like water polo players do. I'm an old lady. Yeah. I know we're not that old. Come on. I know, but we have gray hair, Rich. No swimming though. No, I mean, a kickboard, you're relying on the board. I want my whole body. You're still doing this. I do. But not as consistently. I would say before I was doing it three days a week, and I've also made up little exercises and moves that I do while I'm treading. And look, even if I'm not doing the actual motion of treading, I'll sometimes switch it up and just swim for a little bit and then tread. But when I get out of the pool, my spine and my body, my whole body just feels, I feel so powerful after I tread for an hour. And now it's more so if I'm, you know, for a hotel I'm staying at, has a pool, I'll tread if I have time, or we have a pool at our office, which is our old starter home. We have a pool there, and so I'll go over there and tread. But it's not as consistent, but I still do it, and I love it. And my co-host Fortune started treading. And she's like, man, she's like, I love this. This could be a whole trend. Well, we have listeners because we talk about it. Oh, really? How you do? Fortune will be like, yeah, I was treading this morning, and we have listeners now that will ride in or tag us and be like, hey, I'm treading now. I love it. Oh, that's so interesting. I'm going to send a video to you of me treading water. Well, it's funny because I did some interview. I can't remember what it was for, but the guy was like, the interviewer was like, we want to interview you when you're doing something that you love to do. And I said, why love to tread water? And he was like, all right. So I'm like in the pool with this interviewer who's treading with me. But you know, I also, I've started doing weight training and I used to do long distance cycling. I'm very much into endurance. I'm nowhere near you, but like I would do long distance cycling of like 50 to 100 miles a day. Oh, wow. 50 to 100 miles a day? Yeah. That's legit. Yeah. How long ago was that? I mean, that's for real cycling. Yeah. Yeah. From the time I was 28 to 32. Is this like a boulder thing? No, actually my uncle who ate the key lime pie, he is a long distance cyclist. And I remember going to visit and looking at his biking books and being like, that's cool. Like planning a trip around cycling. And I've done those aides rides. And I've also cycled across France and my friend and I, we planned this trip and then would stop along the way and cute little cafes. But through the countryside of France, and then we'd stay in chateaus and take bubble baths and claw foot tubs and to treat ourselves. But I found that very meditative was because I didn't have headphones in. I used that time like I do with treading to kind of, I always say connect the dots in my life. I really use that time even though it's meditative, I use that time to really think about what I want to do and what I'm, you know, just like big ideas kind of come to me during that. And, but I would, I did a show in Portland, Oregon and cycled with another comedian to Seattle. And we met this guy on the way there and he let us sleep in his houseboat that he wasn't sleeping on. I mean, we certainly probably weren't terribly safe, but did shows in Portland cycle to Seattle, did shows there. I couldn't possibly do it, nor do I have an interest in doing that anymore. But one of my rides was on the East coast and I was going and it's that endurance thing that has really helped me in my life. I was going uphill and it was going for a long time. People were getting off of their bikes, resting, walking their bikes up the hill. And I was like, I'm not getting off. I'm just going to go slow and steady and I'm just, I have no idea how high this hill is. It was eight miles and it was the greatest feeling when I got to the top. And it was also that thought of like, I'm so glad I had no idea how long this hill was. It was going to be. Yeah. But I feel like that's that, that was before 2012. And I feel like that's that thing in me that I think helped me push through the 2012 time is I can, I can do it. Lock in, endure. I can do it. Deal with a degree of suffering for an extended period of time. Yeah. This is a life skill. Yeah. Yeah. It's rewarding too. And just the process of doing it is so therapeutic mentally, you know, and grounding, but cycling takes up a lot of time. It does. It does. But, and again, I don't miss it. I can romanticize about those days and it's fun to be like, yeah, I did that. But it doesn't really, we're in Colorado a lot and we cycle as a family, but in such a casual way. Different way. Yeah. But I'm very curious like with what you've done, as much as it feels good to do that kind of extreme long distance, long haul kind of sport and exercise, that there's also talk of like, your body also just registers it as stress and cortisol levels and what's your feeling on all of that? I mean, I think that, yeah, it certainly can be that. Like you have to really pay attention to how well you're recovering because you can easily tip over into that state where you're just progressively depleting yourself and, you know, just regulating your hormones and everything. And the older you get, the more recovery you get. So you just, you can't handle the load as well as you could when you're younger. I love it. Obviously right now I can't do it. I hope to one day be able to get back into it. Not that I have some big desire to compete. Like I don't feel like I have anything to prove. And so what does that look like? But like, but I want to feel good in my body, you know, and there is something, you know, if I'm not, you know, I don't have to go out and do it all day, but like to be able to go out and feel fit and, you know, confidently ride up a hill and feel good, you know, all of that. Like I miss all of that. So I don't foresee a situation in which I'm going to be like training 20 to 25 hours a week again, like I was, like that just doesn't fit within my life. And it's not that interesting to me anymore. I feel like that was an important and formative experience in my life that taught me a lot and was extremely meaningful and valuable to me. And I could go back to that well and tap it, but I think I've learned most of the lessons that I needed to learn from that. And now I want to learn in other and different ways rather than get, stay stuck in that lane, but I still love it. And it makes me feel like me when I'm doing it and not being able to do it, you know, doesn't, I don't feel like myself, but I don't miss like being exhausted all the time. Because, you know, I, you know, I know what it's like to, I've spent many, many years of my life like training for specific performance goals and what that requires to do it well is, you know, kind of living in a, this liminal kind of zombie like state for extended periods of time. And there's too many other things that I'm doing right now that are too interesting and meaningful to me to make that kind of sacrifice. But what is, what is your like, I know you want to feel good, but like if you're like, if I could just be doing this and this and this, I think I'd be good with where I am. What do you mean? What are you asking? I feel like this question is sort of like the person who was asking you like, what, you know, so you're doing the stand up and for what and what's next? Well, I guess you're saying you don't want to do like, you don't want to be as extreme and you're also in this recovery phase. Yeah. And I'm like, I turn 59 next week, like, who are we kidding? But you're not feeling yourself still. So what, what would make you feel like, okay, I'm back to myself? I would like to be able to show up and run a marathon for fun with people and feel fit enough to be able to do that where it's not like some giant ordeal and be kind of adventure ready when a friend calls and says, oh, we're going to hike the Grand Canyon or we're going to go do whatever thing this weekend. I don't feel like I'm not in a position to be able to do that physically. And has your doctor said, oh, you know, in time you'll likely be able to. My surgeon is very conservative and I asked him like two months ago about swimming and he's like, no, not yet. Like he has me on a very slow roll with this. And I also said to him, so how about running? Like, am I going to be able to get back to that? And he basically looked at me and said, well, there's just some things that, you know, you're going to have to think about that, you know, that expire. You know, he was very non-optimistic about that. I know other people who've had spinal fusion surgery have gotten back to running. So I feel confident that if I don't make mistakes and I'm patient and, you know, build a new foundation slowly over time, that I'll be able to get back to doing that. But, you know, who knows? So that was the question I had for you. Like, how long did it take before you felt like you weren't thinking about the fact that you like have this pain or that, you know, maybe you were fragile and going to break? Yeah. You know, when you're saying that your doctor said, no swimming yet, it makes me think, yeah, maybe I wasn't doing that at three months. It could have been six months. Again, I don't know. I don't remember. I'm not clear on all the markers, but I remember for a long time looking at people on bikes thinking, how are they doing that? You know, things seemed absolutely impossible. And yeah, I don't have a clear memory of how long it took me. I mean, I still, I'm very careful about how much I lift and how I lift, which, of course, you should be regardless of any sort of surgery. But it's always in there. Like, I got to, I got to be careful, you know, I don't, I don't have the body that other people have, but I do have a body and I have come a long way with my body. Which vertebrae were fused? It was the, yeah, I wish I was lower. It's lower. Okay. Yeah. I don't know how helpful this has been to me. I know. I know. I'm down low, not up in your neck. No, it was down low. What about you? Yours was low. Low L5S1. Yeah. I was, I mean, I've seen videos of you, you were up and about pretty quickly. I was walking around. I mean, but that's really all I'm doing still. I've kept it pretty low key. Yeah. Yeah. Because I just think like, the only thing I can do is screw it up, you know, and if, and my compulsive addictive nature is to like, oh, I walked a mile today, I'll walk two tomorrow and then I'll walk three the next day. You know, it's like, that's what I want to do. And so I'm trying to see what it feels like to do the opposite of that. Cause I think ultimately it will pay dividends over the long haul. So I've had to restrain myself, but I did, you know, so it was pouring rain last night, right? And I've got this little home gym and I was going to go, I woke up super early, it was dark, and I went into my like, slid the door open to my little gym and it was wet on the like, rubber floor that I have in there. And I slipped and I fell over the bench and I have not, I've been so careful about everything. And I was like, oh my God, did I just break my, I literally thought I had just ruined the whole thing. It was one of the scariest things. Yeah. I think I'm fine. Like, I got up and I was like, I think I'm okay, but. It does feel like your body is Jenga for a while. That is terrifying. After my mother tripped, I've become very, I don't casually walk into a bathroom or in or out of a shower or bath tub. Like I'm, I know. Now we're having old people conversation. Look, I'm not the one that's 59. Okay. I'm only 54. I know. I'm a youngster. For the record, you are much younger than me. Much younger. And yes, we all know this. All right, I got to let you go. What's the documentary called? Come See Me in the Good Light. And November 14th on Apple TV. Apple TV. Please make a note of it and watch. Congrats on that. That's super cool. I look forward to seeing it. And thank you for having me. I really do. This was great. I love what you do. I'm not scared of you anymore. Oh, good. I've become a little scared. Yeah. No, this was delightful. I really appreciate the level of presence that you brought to this experience. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. All right. TickNation.com. Signing off. Yes, indeed. Until next time. Thanks. Can I come and see you at Largo? You can come see me anywhere. All right. I'm going to do that. Great. All right. Let's chud water. Sure. We'd love it. Bye. That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, voicing change in the plant power way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. 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