Know & Love Yourself First: Dating at 60 with Fiona Lambert

On this episode of the Resetter podcast, I bring you Fiona Lambert and this discussion is definitely one I have never brought you because it is about how do you start dating in your 60s and what you're going to learn in this conversation is really more than just how do you go back out there and start dating in your 60s or any, any, anytime that I mean the whole conversation is really about a post divorce story. But we start the conversation at how do you decide when it's time to leave a 30 year relationship and how do you navigate moving from that long term relationship into your own life and then back out into a dating life. And there's a lot of really good nuggets in here that I think a lot of you will find some inspiration from. Fiona is really good at articulating her journey. She has a really cool background, which I'll just pour out to you right now because it will inform you about why she's so clear on this new dating life that she has created for herself. So Fiona is a renowned fashion executive turned wellness advocate from the UK and she transformed her health and fitness right before she turned 60. So you're going to hear that there's a lot of cool things Fiona has done to change her life around right before 60, which I know many of you are in that place. And she has over 35 years in leadership in a major fashion brand and a thriving career as a mother, awesome entrepreneur and now an author of several books. Her best selling book, one that we talk a little bit about is called Invincible, Not Invisible, which is a phenomenal title. And the book we're going to talk about in this episode is 60 and single. Your survival guide to dating. She actually starts it off with SAS, SAS instead of SOS. So really cool concept, really cool woman. And what you're going to learn that I think what you will find inspiring is how do you navigate out of a marriage into independence and then into another relationship? What does that look like? How do you deal with the rejection? How do you make sure you don't lose yourself again? How do you make sure you don't repeat old patterns? What kind of dating app do you go on? What do you wear to your first date? These are things that we discuss intimately here and it's a really beautiful discussion with a woman who stood up for herself and made a decision that at 60 life was going to look different. So though I know a lot of you are navigating this moment, which is why I wanted to bring Fiona to you. And if it moves you, go grab her books or both of the books. And as always, I hope this conversation enlightens you and gives you a lighter heart, a broader perspective and leads you to a more authentic you. Fiona Lambert, enjoy. Welcome to the Resetter podcast. This podcast is all about empowering you to believe in yourself again. If you have a passion for learning, if you're looking to be in control of your health and take your power back, this is the podcast for you. Okay. Well, let's start here, Fiona. Let me just welcome you to the Resetter podcast where we have some pretty epic conversations on this platform that I don't have anywhere else and I'm really excited to dive into this one with you. So let me just start off by saying welcome. Oh, thank you. Honestly, I can't wait to talk to you about all the subjects that we've got that was in common in. Yes, agreed. Agreed. So check this out. So I don't know, it was maybe five to 10 years ago when I was going through my perimenopausal experience, I was really deeply trying to understand how the brain changes, how hormones affect us. I've spent a lot of time deep in research on this. And one of the things that I really wanted to understand is what the purpose of menopause was. And this is the premise of my whole next book. And one of the things that I discovered by looking through it through the evolutionary lens, the neuroscience lens, looking at a feminist psychologist is that I really think menopause, that moment where we transition out of our hormonal regularity is a moment in which we upgrade everything in our life. We look at our relationships, we look at our habits, we look at, for me, it was my location. I didn't want to live where I was living anymore. But I think a lot of women go through this moment where they look at everything in their life that they've built and they decide, I'm going to keep that, I'm going to get rid of that, I'm going to upgrade this. And so I want to start this conversation off. I know your new book is about being 60 and single. The other thing I heard is that there was a 31-year-old marriage that ended in this process. And I'm assuming that happened during your menopausal years. So I'm wondering if we can start at that part of your story. How did you know you needed to leave? How did that unfold? And what was that like to do while going through menopause? Oh, gosh. So I have to start by saying, actually, it was tough. It was a tough decision. You don't have a relationship. And I still love my husband. I don't really like each other anymore. And I think, as you say, I think my cycle happened quite, my menopause came quite late. And I think everything that happened to me happened in my 60th year. I got super fit. I got made redundant. But also I did decide that my marriage wasn't something that was going to work or something that I wanted to embrace for the next 30 years, hopefully. I think that as you talk about menopause being a reset, I think it was this huge acceptance of going, this is a positive thing rather than a negative thing and embrace it. And why should I be accepting of something that is not bringing me joy? I want to carry on having adventures. And I do think, actually, you change. You change. You know, I became stronger through work. I became accepting of the menopause and the changes that brings. And I very much wanted to make that a positive effect versus a negative effect. Yes. And this is why I wanted to bring this out before we dive into the topic of your next book, because this is happening to so many women. And I wanted to understand, like when you look at 70% of divorces are initiated by women after 40, something has women looking at their relationships different. And there were two major things that I looked at that relate to what you just said. The first is when our hormones come in, we have a very relational brain. When we have a regular hormonal cycle, we access both our right and left hemispheres. We have a larger corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres, which makes our brains very relational, which basically means I'm willing to put your needs ahead of my own. Because my brain can see the whole your feelings and my feelings. When estrogen drops, we go into a lateralized brain, where we're no longer going right and left, cross-francising, we're picking either I'm in my right brain or I'm in my left brain. And I believe this is the moment the people pleasing ends. Oh, 100%. Yeah. Right? So was it like a sort of a gradual time where you're like, this relationship isn't working, this relationship isn't working, and then maybe hitting a place where you were like, you said it earlier, like, I don't like who is showing up. I don't like me in this relationship. Yes. And I think whether you call it a landmark age, 60 was a bit of a, it was something that I hit, as I said, it was a whole combination. I think people pleasing actually across the board, really, because I changed my career, became an author, and I ended up creating content as well, my marriage still. And I actually, I am living my best life at the moment, because I stopped worrying. I love that. Well, you know, is the joy of no now, it's saying no to things more often. And I think that 60 was definitely an age where I thought, you know, I don't want to compromise anymore. Yes. And I want everybody who's listening to this to also be thinking, this isn't always in our relationship sometimes. Like one of the places it landed for me is I could no longer live in the home I was living in. I was like, I need, I can't do this town, I can't do this home, I need to be somewhere else. And I think a lot for a lot of us, that's, there's these really big parts of our life that we're like, no, can't do it. And Julie Gottman's a friend, and are you familiar with the Gottmans and their? So the Gottmans have studied marriage in a lab, as much as you can imagine that being more of for decades, more than anybody, any other researcher. And I actually was with her a month ago, and we were talking about the impact that menopause had on marriage. And one of the things she said is that when women realize their marriages are over, or they're depressed within their marriage, it's because they've been saying yes, all along to things they really wanted to say no to. And they just kept saying yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then they get resentful in the marriage. Do you feel you made a lot of changes in your life? And I want to just make sure this conversation is more than just relationship changes. You've made career changes. You made fitness changes. Where do you think those yeses were that your younger self was agreeing to things that she really wanted to say no to? So I think my, I mean, I had a fantastic career, which I loved in fashion. And you, but I think one of the things is you realize a lot of your self esteem is caught up in your role. And and that is, you know, that brings on the people pleasing as well, because you know, you're on a treadmill of being successful and continue to deliver and reputational. And as I said, I got made redundant at 60. And I stopped instead of chasing another job. I decided, well, actually, I'm going to take some time out and get to my absolute kickist and almost sort of make 60 beginning and not see it as an end and almost hopefully role model that, you know, there's loads of life to be had. And similarly, I guess with my marriage, I think I'd compromise a lot, you know, and made myself maybe a bit smaller. And, you know, whether it was the age or I hadn't realized the impact of the hall bones on the on the left brain and right brain. Right. Fascinating. Right. So, you know, it was, you know, there was something in my head that thought, I don't want to not be living a true Fiona, whether it was through work or in my marriage. And I, you know, I actually said something the other evening, you know, I feel I'm being more made than I've ever been, you know, without the people facing. Yeah, I love that. And, you know, how many women are saying this right now, which is why I think our stories are really important to tell, because the other statistic that's haunted me for years is the most common time for a woman to commit suicide is from the decade from 45 to 55. And I believe so strongly that this is the time that that relational brain is changing. And so all of a sudden she starts to see that things aren't working in her life. What, when you go to make a change, like change a career, leave a leave a marriage, can you walk us through that process? Like there has to be fear. Is there doubt? Is there like, how do you know to keep pushing through the pain and to knowing that you're going to get to the place you're at now? Because I'm sure when you went in to your divorce, you didn't know you were going to be years later in the happiest place of your life. No, no, certainly not. Yeah. Can you also talk about that journey? Yeah, it's quite interesting how many people on both counts said you're really brave, because I think as you said, and you know, you quoted that statistic on suicide, you know, I didn't, I said it was hard. You know, it was it was a really, really hard decision. And, you know, I suppose other people want to see it as hard because a lot of people probably wouldn't make those steps. I think what was helpful was actually having a group of very close friends who could see the difference in you and see you probably, you know, when you're in their company or a different person and they see you being a different, you know, behaving differently, whether it was at work or in the marriage and think and they they are often the people that can bring the external viewpoints and give you the correct give you the courage because they can see. Yeah, past it or unequally people who've been through it as well. I guess it's quite interesting writing the book. I wish I'd read it actually before before I started dating actually, because there's so much about finding yourself again first. If you come out of a long relationship, you don't realize how much you have, you know, you've got behaviors or you've got connections that all of a sudden you've got to relearn being single again. But you're definitely friends and connections. I think are a great support at that time because they see the potential in you and maybe see how you behave differently in an alternate environment. So powerful. So I did, you know, I've also watched Jane Fonda for many years who says that she would not be existing in her eighties now if it hadn't been for her girlfriends. And I really do think a good, strong, grounded set of women to guide you through an experience like that is mandatory. So I love, I love the way that you're stating this. How chill. Before we go into like, I get, I want, I want to bring this to a place where people can learn how to thrive after 60 and start dating. But, but I feel like what do we do with the self doubt? I mean, you had, you, you go through this decision that you need to end this long term marriage that was probably safety for you and, you know, a bit bumpy. And then you come out and where, where did you get, how did you handle self doubt? Where did you get confidence to start a life over again? I always think some of the best advice I've always been given is never over think the future. You know, you can't change the past and you can't predict the future or you can is, is live the best today. And I think you could sit there going all of the what it's, what if it doesn't work, what if I regret it, what, you know, and you, and you do that. I think the best thing is to focus on the day and, and, you know, you have to, you do have to love yourself first. You know, you have to keep this affirmations about yourself because that way you realize you don't need somebody to complete you. And, you know, you, you have that strength in yourself to be on your, you know, on your own, it's better probably to be on your own and have a sort of uncertain uncertainty about it versus being in a secure place that isn't making you happy. And you do, I think you do have to just keep reminding yourself that. And yeah, I think, you know, definitely you need to start that loving yourself, dating yourself, you know, really embracing positive affirmations, celebrate what you're capable of on your own and, and keep doing that every single day to build up your self-esteem and remove those, you know, sort of the doubt that always always going the what it's, what it's. I can totally see that. Where fitness came into it for you? Cause I know you wrote your last book. I love the title from invisible to invincible. Yeah. Invincible was invisible. Yeah. Um, oh, yeah, I'm like that. Cause that has been a big thing. I keep saying, well, we should be invincible. If you look at us, if you look at the brain changes that happen to us when we go through menopause, we were at evolutionary heroines, we should be held up in high regard. But, you know, we, we, so many women fear becoming invisible. So I'm curious how much fitness, like if you went into your body, you got yourself fit, like how did that help you with confidence? A hundred percent. I'm sure it did. I mean, again, I think a lot of, um, women will be in a marriage almost thinking, I'm never going to meet somebody else or they've, you know, lost body confidence or, and I think, you know, that might be some of the reasons why people don't find that courage to leave because, you know, they, they, they're worried they do need someone to meet them and their lack of body confidence maybe stops that. Um, I think being fit makes you strong and mentally and physically. I mean, it does take, you know, it takes, it takes resilience. It takes you to have goals and achieve them. You know, you know, you're, you're self disciplined to do some exercise. It's, you know, you've got fabulous endorphins and dopamine, you know, running around your body, making you feel great. So I think, you know, and then, you know, you're mentally and physically strong. So I think, you know, undeniably, getting to my fittest at 60. Probably a decision that I could move on. And, you know, I'm, I'm also actually promoting as well. It's better to be strong than skinny at the moment as well. You know, I just think, you know, there's, and there's absolutely no reason to be, you know, building up your muscle as a, as an older woman, it's going to stand you in great stead for both your strength and your metabolism as you age. So, you know, I'm sort of out there being an advocate of going, it's never too late, never too old, get to your fittest, but I think it will not only do that, it will help you mentally, you know, with your resilience and your confidence as well. Yeah. That's what I've noticed about health in general. When life, my motto has been when life falls apart, start focusing on your health because you can control that, you have more control over that. It'll reconnect yourself to, to you, to yourself. It'll give you confidence. And it's, it's an action item that you can, you can do to make yourself feel better. So I have used that go to when all, everything in my life falls apart. I'm like, okay, what, I'm doubling down on my health now. What am I going to do to make myself even healthier? And sometimes fitness is a part of that. So I could really see that. It's an amazing, it's an amazing investment. It's an investment into your future self as well. So, you know, it's a win-win. You don't rely, it's like you don't need to rely on anybody. You're just like, oh, I'm going to do this for myself. I'm going to build my own confidence up and then see how life changes. It has been my absolute go to. Every time life falls apart, I work on another aspect of my health to bring back some strength and then it oozes into my life. It's, it's such a powerful tool. I'm going to get it. Were you, were you, were you working out a lot before, before 60 or were you, did you come to fitness later in life? No, I was, I was fit and I was probably, I was trained with a trainer once a week. I probably did. I discovered that doing 15 minutes of hip training like two or three times a week is phenomenal. I'd encourage anybody to do it. Amazing, agree. In the book, I, you know, I talk about that because it's over very quickly. You burn lots of calories and it raises your metabolism afterwards. So it makes you, yeah, it's a fabulous, fabulous way of working out. But with, with 60 approaching, as I said, it was a bit of a, it was, I was sort of, I don't know, it sounds awful. I was dreading same age. And I thought, why is that? And I thought I have to turn it into a positive. So, you know, I took two months to get to my absolute, you know, absolute fittest, I had my training with a PT trainer twice a week and I had my hip training to four times a week, but it isn't, there's no silver bullet. I, you know, I cut out sugar, I cut out alcohol, increased all of my protein, which again, is a great thing to do anyway. As a woman, as you mature, you have a much higher protein content in your diet. So, yeah, I was fit, but I, you know, there was a fabulous, I'm sorry, goal orientated. She was a fabulous goal, we had to just get to my fittest at 60 as a bit of a message to two things up to, you know, to both society and having to say it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great goal. It's a great goal. It achieves a lot, a lot of different pieces. Okay. So this leads me to how do you know you're ready to date again? I will say that I, some of my closest friends have ended their marriages and moved on and I spent a lot of time watching them go, I'm never going to date again to finally coming to a place of, I think I am going to date again. What was, what was that, that deciding factor for you that made you want to go out and, and, and connect with another human again? Yeah. Well, hand on heart, I think I started too soon. And it's interesting having, yeah, I think it's interesting having, having written the book because I, yeah, it was, it was friends, of course, who encouraged me and it was sort of like the get back on the horse kind of analogy. It would be really, oh my gosh. And, and actually, I wish I hadn't, I wish I hadn't. And the first chapter in the book, and the book is called FAS 60 and single your survival guide to dating is about love yourself first and date yourself first. And, and I think, you know, really knowing what makes you tick, what you want from a relationship, what things you love doing, what makes, what brings you joy, what doesn't bring, you know, saying no to things that don't bring you joy. And, you know, it's interesting as well, you certainly after a 31 year marriage as well, there are friends and connections as well. We will lose, you will lose. So, you know, there's a, there's a bit as well of establishing almost new friendship groups as well and, you know, a new support group. So, and it was interesting. I'm trying to think where, so I finally was separated last, I was going to say last April, getting through a Christmas new year on my own was, was, was quite significant though, because I was dreading it and I'm, you know, sort of thinking, oh, this is going to be really difficult. And it's my first single Christmas and first single new year. Actually, it's fine. And I thought, you know, I've grown up now. Well, yeah. Well, yeah, I've, you know, it was, I think that's what I thought. That was the moment when I thought I'm ready. You know, all the things I was anticipating, feeling very nostalgic about or very sentimental about. Actually, it was okay. Yeah. So that was, that was my significant moment. But I had gone through a lot of, you know, you know, for actually from working, you know, I used to work in big teams of people and also used to live in a, you know, it was my husband in marriage. I was on my own in a house and, you know, I love company and I'm very vigorous and very sociable. And, you know, there were moments probably when I was lonely and I had to almost have to as well learn to be good in my own company, which is quite interesting. And again, I think finding yourself and being okay on your own is quite important as well before you start dating. Yeah. You know, it's another thing that I found in my research is that there's some pretty strong evidence that when we go into puberty as girls, we start getting societal messaging that you're good, you're worthy. If you're pleasing everybody around you. And so when we hit our menopausal years, we haven't really exercised that muscle. What do I want? And what I'm hearing you say is the moment of loneliness or the moment of being alone provided you that opportunity to get to know yourself in a different way and get to know what you actually want outside of the demands of other people around you. And I would think that is scary and freeing all at the same time. Did you, what did you discover about yourself that you were shocked? Like in the alone, you can learn a lot. Was there anything you were shocked by in those first initial transition into alone? I, I studied a lot more actually, you know, I sort of did a lot more reading and things. So I think that finding your own viewpoints and things through reading and education, you know, the aren't your joint views, you know, it gives you the time to do that. I do think, you know, I've got very strong bonds with my mum and dad and my children as well. And actually they, they become more important and different as well. Yeah. When it's not as a couple. And I, I mean, I love the outdoors. I love walking, I love climbing and actually just having time doing that and really, you know, I found time enjoying nature, which I've probably sacrificed some of that because my husband didn't enjoy it as much actually. So, so that was, that was great to actually, you know, find just how meditative, actually I'm not very good at meditating. Yeah. I find the outside and walking very meditative. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and all amazing things that I think the transition of menopause provides is that for all of us, whether people stay in relationships or leave, a big part of age like a girl is my next book. And I really want to bring forward that it is that moment to step in and get to know yourself because of the brain changes that have happened. So that was so beautifully stated. Okay. Now you decide you're going to go out and you're going to date. I mean, as a woman who's in a 30 plus year old marriage, I wouldn't even know where to begin. Like, do you go to a dating app? Like we didn't have dating apps back then. Like, where do you start? Do you put a sign out? I'm ready. Like, how do you go after this? Oh, my goodness, indeed. Well, it's so funny because, you know, everybody goes, I could write a book about my dating stories. And I did. Yeah, there you go. Yeah. So it was it was just such a learning experience. As you said, you know, I, you know, I, you know, I think I'm that my husband is a nightclub where our eyes met across the dance floor. You know, that's, you know, that's how you used to meet people. It was sort of whereas, you know, I said that I'd never ever ventured on a dating app before. What's quite interesting now, because I do have a section on trying to meet people outside of dating apps. But gosh, it's hard now, you know, because the situation, you know, the way in, in, in, I'm going to say bars now, because of society's changes now, people don't like to be, you know, they don't, they're scared of approaching or they're worried it's going to come across wrong. And there's quite a lot of changes to how people behave now, I think, in a situation where you could go and approach a group of ladies or a group of gents or whatever and talk to them. It's quite interesting changes. So yeah, so I embarked on the world of dating apps and gosh, it's hard. One you recommend, is there? Well, yeah. So I think I tried six different ones in the end. And yeah, yeah. Well, I think I started off on two and then I thought when it was a book, I thought, you know, I'm going to have to, you know, experience a few more and how they work. So I've the ones I went on, I recommended Bumble, which is the female female led app, actually. So but gosh, there was so, so I had the section in the book, I talk about date yourself first, learn about yourself. Then I do talk about, I do want from your next partner, because you just don't necessarily want to go with what you've always wanted to do and end up with a version of your. Don't repeat the same mistakes. Exactly that. And then I talk about actually writing your own profile and get some tips on that and how to, which are the rights of the pay-to-welfts. And I've got a great friend who's a professional matchmaker as well. And she supported me and gave me some advice as well. And then how to manage those first conversations. And because, you know, whether it's closed questions, you know, yes and no questions don't get you anywhere. And you do find lots of men who gives one word answers. So trying to wrinkle out some information is going to help you find the right person. And then there are some interesting characters that come out the woodwork. I'm trying to give everybody some tips on how to navigate them, whether it's sadly the cougar hunters. There's lots of young gentlemen who I think if you're an older woman, you're going to be desperate to date them. You've got some narcissists on there and some misogynists. And I'm giving tips on how to find them and spot them and, you know, dodge them. Yeah. So and then, yeah, I do. Yeah, there is. And then, yeah, there's tips on all the sort of terminology, which I've never used. The zombie and the ghosting and the bread cramming and all sorts of terminology that you need to know when you're dating a light. That's so funny. So so one of my closest friends who will probably listen to this episode and die that I'm telling the story. We were at a supermarket and she got hit on by a good looking younger man. She's 60 and this guy must have been early 30s and or late 20s, early 30s. And we leave and she was flirting with him in the supermarket and we leave. And she's like, he just gave me his number. And I'm like, are you serious? Look, she like good. Yeah. And she goes, she's the same age as my son. I can't go and date that guy. So do you like do you have to like put an age parameter? You do. You do. Yeah. How do you build out what what your boundaries are and who you're going to attract? Well, I think that part of the beginning about what do you want from a relationship is important. It's interesting because I started off, I think I I'm 62 and I think I put I think I put 48 to 62. Who actually on my data parameters? Too much information. But somebody said, well, you should lower it, you know, and I think I did in fairness. I think I dated a 43 year old for a little bit. But it is interesting what you said because, you know, whether it is this change in hormones and this strength you get and this confidence you get and the lack of people, the lack of people pleasing. What you do find is that it is unbelievably attractive to genuinely there are 25 year old young men who say they are 45 in order to meet you. So they'll put their ages 45. So you think you'll make you think you're being paired up with somebody who's 45. And actually, they're 25. So, you know, what's what's been fascinating to find out is actually, you know, these these years are our best years. And this confidence we've got of stopping people pleasing is unbelievably attractive. Yeah. And don't you wish you had it when you were 25? Oh, gosh, I wish. Yeah, I so wish our younger selves, we were less worried about how we looked at body shape and, you know, what other people thought of us. Yeah, I've often talked about what I'd tell my 21 years of. And it would be it would be worry less. It would be worry less for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's so true. OK, what was the first date like you went on? Did it was that the was that the first couple of dates had to be weird? Was that back in back in the summer? They were. And I think, as I said, I think I probably ended, you know, I think I first of all, it's too early. So what was quite interesting at the beginning? I think I I started dating as if it was going to be a relationship. Work their work versus versus. So, you know, if I look back on those first dates, it was almost, you know, are they going to be, you know, looking for the second date or the third day and, you know, talking about other commitments and things like that. Whereas actually now, and I talk about this book as well, I think it's far better, you know, to take each date as it comes. And if you have if you have a great first date, then you'll end up having a second date versus going into it thinking, have I met the next future? Mr. Mr. Lamber or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. So so yeah, I think that they, you know, in hindsight, I was probably very scary. Because I was probably starting for long. Yeah. Oh, when should we go on holiday? No, I wasn't doing that. But I, you know, it's quite interesting. Yeah. One of those things to learn. Yeah, I can I can see that through a woman's, you know, through being married for 30 years. I can see where you would probably go to that very quickly, because that's what you know, that that makes perfect sense to me. Did you have to set some like rules for yourself? Like I'm not going to kiss him on the first day. I'm not going to sleep with him until we've had fun. Like, do you, is there some protocol for that? Because that's changed in 30 years as well. Yeah. Well, I think again, that's so personal. And part of the part of the book I do talk about, you know, you know, there's, you know, bizarre questions you have to ask now that you probably didn't ask when you were dating your 30 years ago. This whole thing, are you exclusive or not? You know, so, you know, so, you know, the apps enable people to sort of do multiple dating. Whereas I think if you sort of started going on with, you know, somebody who went on the first or second or third date, you'd sort of presume that that was your boyfriend in those days. Whereas, you know, now you actually have to have a very overt conversation to go, are we are we exclusive yet? You know, it's a very different thing. I mean, there is a technical book because actually when I was talking to people, a couple of people about writing it, people were saying, when do you get intimate with someone? You know, when's the right time? And it's entirely personal. But I think that work you do at the beginning about what do you want from a relationship? You shouldn't feel pressured into doing anything anybody else's way. You know, whether it's, you know, who you're dating or even girlfriends, you know, what they do. I think it's so personal and that work you do on yourself first about what's important to you, you know, what, you know, what, what are your boundaries are really important. Yeah, I get the end and important for all aspects of your life. You know, if you can figure it out before you go into a relationship and apply it in a relationship, you can probably apply it to to all of your relationships. Yes. Yes. It's the same. I'm sure it's, you know, applying for jobs, you know, it's exactly the same thing. Right. And playing, yeah, playing for jobs. I did have an analogy of, you know, I've actually been maybe redundant more than once, but being maybe redundant and having that feeling of sort of rejection and you're used to, you know, I'd have full time career. And I went through lots of job interviews and I was chasing every job interview and all the networking opportunities. And if somebody said the moves going on, applying to that and. True. I think a profession. And my, there was a fabulous life coach, actually. And he, when he was doing all of this thing about chasing after jobs and, you know, and too much, that's what I'm saying too much to myself as Dean was caught up in the role. So I sort of think, you know, I want another role and actually learn to love myself. It's a really similar analogy and he, you know, of. You don't need, you know, finding the right job is better than finding a job and finding the right way is better than having any partner. And I have a fabulous life coach. He said to me, he said, you can have dog mind or stick mind. Sorry, dog mind or lion mind. And dog mind is you chase after a stick and it's exhausting. A lion sits on the prairie spots its prey, waits for that and goes that. And I think whether it's going to jobs or going for dating, I think you need a lion mind, not a dog mind. So. Yeah, I can, I can imagine. What did you, did you come up against rejection? I think that would probably be some fear would be not wanting to be rejected. Yeah. And, and yes, I mean, I clearly had, you know, dates that I would have liked to have had another one with and for one reason, another went wrong. But again, that self esteem is really important. You know, I think the you've got to remember that even if you really like them, however much you throw at them, you know, it's their choice. And that loving yourself first, you have to dig back into that again. They're just not your person. They're just not your person. And I've got a big fear as well, if they're not right to you, you're not right for them. So vice versa. So right. Yeah, it all works. Yeah. Are you currently in a relationship now? No, no, I was still single. So but happy. Still happy. I have been single. Not I think it's important. Not I think it's important. Again, maybe this is this thing about, you know, when you talk about our brains, I think it's really important not to settle. You know, to go, you know, you could, you know, it could be easy. Well, again, it's probably very personal, but I think I don't want to go for something that I is just about. I'm happy in a relationship and it's somebody to come home to or I would rather meet someone that compliments me rather than completes me. And it's somebody that share fabulous experiences with but I don't need them there. Right. Well, which would be the perfect way to approach every single relationship. And we should have been approaching it that way when we were in our 20s. Right. And not like, oh, this is a life thing that I check a box on or, you know, what do I need to complete me? I think that's the real difference just in the trajectory of the way the female brain works. Is because we're so conditioned to like look outside of ourselves to find happiness and to find worthiness. And then we go through menopause and we start looking within ourselves. Well, a question that a very good friend and I have spent hours and hours and hours discussing because she is as divorced is what, why would you want to go back into a relationship? And what is the benefit of going back into a relationship when you have a brain that is now geared towards more inter, you know, independence? So I'm curious, I'm curious if you could articulate that. Like why, what would be the desire to go back into a relationship? It's a very, very fair question. I've established new friendship groups with, you know, actually old and new girlfriends, actually, which I wish I'd had more of when I was married. I think, you know, I sacrifice a lot of time with really good girlfriends. And again, it might be an age thing, but actually they, but now it's even more important as well. Or, you know, I think, you know, there's a reason things like just like that and four seasons or, you know, this sort of women power as we're sort of reaching a fabulous ages. How I describe it with when people go, what are you looking for? I mean, I love, I love having experiences, I'm always planning adventures into my life. I saw somebody I saw the other day that you should have a mega adventure once a year and six mini adventures. And I've always got something to look forward to. I think it's nice to share those with people or someone close to you that you can share that experience and have joint memories of. I'm doing it with girlfriends, but I guess I'm thinking I would like a relationship that I could do that as well as not instead of as well as. Yeah, it's funny. I again, studying the menopausal brain for so long now, I have come up with three categories. I think women fall or women are looking for in relationships when they enter their postmenopausal years. One of them, I believe, is a relationship with yourself like you've talked about. And you'll see when Age Like A Girl Comes Out, I explain exactly why that is, that we can no longer say yes when we mean no. It's just neurologically not hardwired for us. The other one is exactly what you just said, which is a really important one. And I don't, I wish men, I mean, I hope more men are listening to this podcast, but our friendships with our girlfriends are magic and their medicine. And a lot of times relationships, especially marriages, become blocks to fostering our friendships with the women in our life that mean the world. And I think it's really interesting that as we get older, women tend to get more connected to their friends and men tend to get more lonely. And yet that relationship is so important. I hear so many women say that they need their girlfriend time. And then that leaves a third box, which is what you're saying, who am I sharing life with and those collective memories of doing life together. But what I discovered in talking to my closest friend, who's now been divorced 10 years, and she's 58, and is that she wants to go back out there. She's very, you know, open to it, but she doesn't want to give the alone time up. And she doesn't want to give up the friendship. So where does this person fit in? When you're when you're out dating, I mean, do you have those kind of conversations? Because she and I joke about it. I'm like, what are you going to say on the first date? Like, I want to be with you. I just don't want to be with you all the time. Yeah. I think that's a hate. I've worked out kind of Betty for a seat. I'm sure I should as well. I I I I I've got a statement that I want to find somebody interested and interesting. And I think finding someone who's got interest in their own life that they want to share, but also their own interests for me is quite important. So that yes, you value each other's independence as much as you value time together. And that makes you interested and interesting as well, because, you know, you've got conversations we had. The other interesting topic as well, though, with with age. And I don't know, again, if many of your friends have this, there is a well, there's a weird presumption that over 60 and that, you know, it's a reason, again, to find someone is you don't want any intimacy. And there is it's, you know, on one hand, you've got all of these, I'm going to say 25 to 45 year olds thinking you're going to be this fabulous older lady today. And then on the other hand, you've got gentlemen probably more your own age asking in a very coded way, have you still got your mojo, which basically means. Oh, yeah. They say. Yes. I'm like embarrassed for them. Oh, dear. Well, it's trying to, yeah. So so that's the it's it's fascinating really, but yeah, you're navigating all of those sort of questions as well. I can tell what's the weirdest date you've been on. I can tell you why you wrote a book. It's the adventures alone have to be interesting. Oh, I dated Shaffer. I think three, I think we had about three dates and I hadn't heard the expression for but my friend told me it's called Aaron's dating. So every date we went on, he tied it into a task that he needed to do. What? Yeah, those who one day was you have Costco in America, do you? Yes. Yeah, yeah. One day was he said, Oh, would you ever been to a Costco? And I said, No. So he took not a date to Costco because he needed to go. And then another day he he deals with you buy his furniture on Facebook marketplace. And he said, Oh, I'm over your way. Shall we meet there? Because then you can help me get this furniture into the car. Deans, did you go out before three? I think when the third date involved third watching, that's when that's when it was kind of it was over. Just Erica, I think I would have. I hate Costco, so I probably would have been out at the Costco. Oh, yeah. That's insane. No, it's a thing. Aaron dating. Aaron dating the things you learn. Talk to me a little bit about what people can find in this book, because one of the reasons I am excited to have this conversation with you is my audience is 45 to 65 is the mid bulk of who listens to this podcast and women mostly. And a lot of transition, a lot of things going through their head. A lot of women trying to decide if they're going to leave marriages, trying to decide if they're going to stay and repair marriages, not knowing what the other side looks like. What can we find in this book that can guide women through gets firmly standing in that next place with their relationships? And what advice would you give women right now who are really contemplating going back out there? I love the way you've stepped this, but what would you, if there's a lot of fear, I have a good friend who really wants to go out into the world and date, but is really scared. So what kind of advice would you give there? Well, I said, when I started doing it, I just thought I could be a fabulous guinea pig for this, because I said it was all new to many. And I didn't expect to be in this position. You know, at 59, I didn't expect to be here. And at 60, I was. And so it was, you know, there is an element, you know, you go slightly through the sort of grief, you know, the grief curve, you know, you're going through the sort of shock of it all. I do think that exercise and actually irrespective of loving yourself first, you could read the first chapter of the book, Irrespective of Your Personal Situation, because the first chapter is about this, you know, finding self-appreciation, self-love, dating yourself first, and getting yourself in a fabulous, strong position. Almost overcome those fears. Actually, if you didn't find someone, it's okay to be on your own. Right. So it's almost like you're neutral. Exactly. You're detached. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, more than that, you're in love with yourself, I think is a good place to be. Yeah. So I love that idea. Yeah. And then I think the, you know, all, you know, I'd never filled in a dating profile. So, you know, there was all, you know, all the tips on doing that and what photos to put on and. Do you put a, do you put, I just have to know, do you put a real photo? Do you put a, you put a shot photo? No, it's interesting. I put, I put real photos on and it and smiling photos. I mean, it's quite interesting because I have, you know, clearly I've talked to guys about this as well. And they are, they are, you know, I think I do the, the do's and the don'ts. And the don'ts were, don't put filtered photos on because the minute you turn up, you've already, you're done. Yeah, you're done. There's a lot of people who put very old photos. So we're aged or changed size. You know, there's a lot of people don't put smiling photos on. A lot of people wear sunglasses. I'm not, you know, there is a little, yeah, there's, there's plenty of bad photos of men, I should say as well. But they know it's their feedback on ladies' photos as well. And, and don't put photos of yourself in groups of people so they can't spot who you are. So, so there's, you know, there's, there's tips on the photos, but also not just from my perspective. There's, this is actually what guys have said about the photos as well. So, so there's that. And then as I said, there's, you know, there's, I've done, you know, test of all the, well, six different dating apps. How to, you know, how do you engage in a conversation and, you know, sift the wheat out from the chat and spot the, spot the odd characters that come, that will come up. And many of the questions that you need to ask, what do you wear on a first date? Yeah, oh yeah. Because you were into fashion. How do you? I don't know. I'm so good to wear. Well, I've got, I found out I got a, a work wardrobe and I got using, I'm doing lots of black tie events, black tie events and lots of gym kit, I'm thinking what on earth do I was? What on earth do I wear going on the day? But I feel some foremost, I think it's going to be some need or confidence in, you know, because that's the thing that, you know, you don't want to sit there feeling like it's too tight or too short or too loose, you know, or too low cut or something. It's got to be something you feel comfortable in and feel fabulous in. So that's you're going to radiate that then. And then I did there is actually some I collated some stories as well from friends who met people outside of dating apps. So there obviously is actually two thirds of relationships do come from outside of dating apps. So there is a world out there. There is a world out there. And but I think you just one of the biggest things is not to take it too seriously. If you if you took every rejection or every bad day as a as a you know, I'm never going to do this again. You've just got to enjoy that enjoy the journey really rather than taking it too seriously and yourself too seriously and not view it as you know view it as a data time rather than this desperation that you've got to find another relationship. Yeah, as I said, you know, it's I think my last line in the book is actually, you know, writing this I am still single but actually, I am the best date I'm ever going to have. Yeah. And that's the way we should again, we should have known that at 20. Like, how awesome would that that wouldn't been so I just I just love that what kids think of this whole dating thing. Oh my goodness me. Yeah. Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard. But ultimately, I just want you to be happy. So yeah, I think they've got over probably the initial shock of it. And so do you tell do you talk to them about who you're dating and the dates you went on and my daughter a little bit actually, I'm very lucky my daughter's 32. She's my best friend as well. So with it, yes, within reason I I'll bounce stuff off her if I've met someone nice. She's one of the first ones to see the photos. So instead of coming home to meet your parents, you got to bring them home to meet your children. I know. It is quite funny. There's a bit of a role reversal. She's coming. Are you saying you're definitely coming back though, aren't you? You're going, yes, of course I am. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I just love this. I love this. It is hilarious. What a necessary book. I mean, there is so much in the zeitgeist right now about women making the decision to be independent when they go into their 60s. I think whether women stay married or not, there's also conversations. I'd love Esther Perrell statement. I don't know if you've followed her work, but she said you'll be most people will fall in love in their adult life. They'll fall in love two to three times. And for some people, that will be with the same person. And for some people, that will be different people. And I think there's a lot of pressure for us when we get married in our 20s. Like there's no way we can be the same person in our 50s and 60s. And there's a lot of pressure on the container of marriage to hold together despite the fact that you're a completely different person. So I think what you're bringing forward as far as helping women navigate that is really important. Where? Yeah. And I think- I've never heard the term still the splitters before. And you heard that term? Oh no, tell me. Tell me, what is it? No, no, what it means is everybody's switching up in most of the 50s and 60s with the silver splitters. Yeah, I heard the gray divorce is what I've heard too. So and- Oh, yeah. Is that better now? Yeah, just not test. I think it's again, this is why I wrote the book that I wrote and it'll be out in December, because there is, when you look at it from the hormonal changes causing a massive neurochemical shift in the brain, causing your brain to operate different, I don't understand how we just slid into our post-menopausal years without discussions like this. And what I think is so beautiful about where the world is now is more women like you are standing up and saying, that didn't work. I'm going to reconnect to myself and now I'm going to find a new version of me in a new relationship. And there's so much to discover. Do you ever think about who you would be right now if you hadn't left your marriage? Gosh, I certainly wouldn't be doing anything that I'm doing now. I don't think I'd be an author. I've ended up being a content creator. I've got a sort of, not as thriving as I wrote on Instagram, I've got an Instagram account that's growing. And I think it is because I'm authentic and out there going, you can have fun and you can be single and you can wear clothes that some people will deem as inappropriate, but I'm enjoying my clothes and keeping fit. And I don't think I would be doing any of that because it would have been too much. It would have been too much. So I'm out there, as a friend said, you're never too much, you're just right. So I'm out there making sure. Amazing. I love that attitude. Where do people find you? How do they find your book? You might end up after this podcast, you might get a whole like support group of women that are going to follow you and band together with you. Yeah. So I'm on Instagram, I'm on Fiona Lambert official and the book is on Amazon and other, it's on other websites, but in the US, I know it's, you'll find it there. And it is called SAS 60 and single, your survival guide to dating. So it'll be available from July the 8th. It's published on July the 8th, but available for pre-order. Amazing. Amazing. Well, thank you for writing this book. I can't wait to tell my friends who are single right now about it, because I've sat and listened to so many of those conversations that they have been really, my favorite one was my, one of my closest friends says to me, I just need to go where they grow good men. Do you know where they go to grow good men? And I'm like, I don't know, but I'll ask the good men where you go to get to grow good men. So if now I'm going to say, oh, I don't know, but I here's a book and the book will show you. Perfect. Perfect. I love that. You'll have to get definitely and let me know where's the things of it. I will. I will. So thank you Fiona and best of luck to you and the bug. And you're going to have to come back when you, if you get remarried, if you find a long-term relation. You'll be the first one to hear. You'll be the first one to hear. That's how I'm watching. I hear social doll of the sun became a lot more interesting to me. Yeah. I want to see what happens to Fiona. Oh, I am sharing funny stories at the moment about the types of approaches. So yeah, it's an interesting watch on my Instagram at the moment. Amazing. Amazing. Well, best of luck to you and everybody go grab Fiona's book and we'll report, we'll have you back when the story evolves into something even different. So I love it. Thanks a lot. My pleasure. Thank you so much for joining me in today's episode. I love bringing thoughtful discussions about all things health to you. If you enjoyed it, we'd love to know about it. So please leave us a review, share it with your friends and let me know what your biggest takeaway is.