The Secret To Making Friends As An Adult

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The show that explores the all-too-human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right. Raj, we are back. It has been almost a year. The vengeance. I think some people thought we were just like cryogenically frozen and have just been like sleeping in pod somewhere. But we haven't been. I mean sometimes. Sometimes we even live in a full life and doing a lot of stuff wrong. So many things wrong. I need this free medical advice. You're going to get some. And I think people will notice that we have a new theme song. We have some new graphics. Maybe you're watching us on YouTube, which has never happened before. Exciting. People can go to the HealthPost channel on YouTube and they can find us there. But we're really happy to be here. And we want to say thank you to everyone who's emailed us in the last year and said, are you coming back? Where are you? Given a show ideas, we have so many exciting shows coming up. And we're really, really happy to be back. So thank you. If you're new, we're happy you're here. Email us. We hope you enjoy it. Yeah, you can email us at Am I doing it wrong at HealthPost.com. But yeah, we just really felt like it was time to come back. Do some more episodes. Learn some new things. And we have an exciting first episode for people. We do. Let's get right into it. Do you think that you are making friends as an adult wrong? Okay, this is a little humble brag, but I actually think I'm great at making friends as an adult. You are. I'm thank you. I'm real social, especially with certain demographics. The she's days and gays. I love to keep you when I'm out, even in the grocery store line, et cetera. But how do we turn that key key into like a solid, satisfying friendship? I would like to dive into that more. It had to be a better friend. You are not alone. This is probably the number one requested episode that we've had. People emailing and being like, we didn't episode on like strengthening friendships. So they're like, how the hell do I get a friend when I'm an adult? I'm not maybe working in an office anymore or maybe I was never working in an office. I'm not in school. Do I have to join a book club? And those are valid questions. So who do we have to help fix this conundrum? Oh, she's going to get our whole lives. We have Dr. Marissa Franco, a psychologist, professor at the University of Maryland, and the author of Platonic. How the signs of attachment can help you make and keep friends. Friend us up, Dr. Franco. Dr. Franco, thank you so much for being here with us today. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks so much for having me. Of course. Okay. So we are going to start talking a little about the loneliness epidemic and how everyone feels so isolated. I hate to be broad, but it's true. It's a big problem. We had a whole episode on loneliness. So can you tell us first of all some statistics and data and observations about not having friends or wanting friends and which groups are kind of feeling at the most? Yeah. So from like the early 2000s to now four times as many people have no friends. Five times as many men specifically. And when you see the decreases in face-to-face interaction, there are certain groups that the decrease has been more stark. And so that's black people, Hispanic people, people that don't have college degrees, people that are more low income, people with disabilities. For a lot of populations that are already marginalized, the loneliness epidemic can hit them more hard. Why is it? I mean, I'm guessing it is because technology is obviously our best friend and also our worst enemy. But why in the last 20 years specifically are we seeing people grow further apart? Yeah. So it's actually not from last 20 years, but more precipitous in the last 20 years. So it's it really started in the 50s, great book, bowling alone, Robert Putnam. And he was looking at, you know, why are people divesting from civic life? Starting in the 50s. And what he found was the most compelling reason was the television. So before the TV, people spent their leisure time around other people. Then they spend it in their four walls. And then you can see how with the creation of smart phones, 2012 was when we saw such an increase again in loneliness, that is when the smart phone became more widely used. And that's affecting us in many different ways. Like instead of people spending their leisure time around other people, they have this other option that offers them power social interactions where they feel connected, but it's kind of like a snack instead of a meal of communication. You know, that's so funny because when I was in college, which was in the late 90s, I'm an old old man. We didn't have cell phones yet. And we definitely didn't have smart phones yet. And my best friend Kate and I, every Friday night, we would order a pizza and go to the laundry room and do our laundry together and play cards. And you again, you weren't always tethered to this object where you were like playing a game or checking your Instagram. You were actually connecting with people. And you're absolutely right. Like we don't do that even on the subway. You look around. There's not a chance to meet someone because everyone has their headphones in. I do. And they're on their phone. Yeah. And there's an interesting study that found that simply having a phone on the table decreases the quality of the conversation. And both people don't say it does, but it doesn't have to be your phone. And by then the conversation, you're not, there's not as much depth. There's not as much phone or feeling. So even if you're not using it or looking at it, it's literally just there. It's like part of your brain is like, oh my god, the phone's there. Yeah. Yeah. I am actually so excited for this episode because I know that when I hang out with my girlies, I come away feeling like I took some kind of drug. I feel so good. It fills me up, really. And I'm wondering if you can tell me what that is. Like why are friendships like meaningful authentic friendships? Not the kind where you're like, oh, I gotta hang out with this person again. Yeah. Because it's like, you know, whatever. Like why are they so important? How do they affect us? Yeah. That's a great question. Well, when we feel connected, we release oxytocin. Oxytocin mixes happy, but it's also considered the fountain of youth. And that is why, for example, when we look at like how much our diet affects our longevity, exercise affects our longevity, having a large diverse social network increases our longevity more than both those things almost combined. And so the effects of connection in our lives, we talked about, I just before we start talking, we talked about working out and protein. And like I think like in our society, we have a focus on so many different health aspects of health that are important, but social connection should be at the top of our list. Yeah. That's such a good point because when you go to the doctor, they they ask, do you work out? Are you smoking? They never say like how many friends do you have? Exactly. How much, you know, time are you spending with other people? Yeah. And they probably should be. They should be because even the common cold, you're more susceptible to it if you're lonely. Like vaccines are more effective if you're more connected. Like literally everything, because when we're disconnected, it activates like our distress system in our bodies, which makes us more vulnerable physically, mentally to like pretty much everything. Yeah. Now knowing that, I have to say that a lot of people asked us to do this episode. I think it's our number one most requested episode. It is. And it's that's beautiful to me. It's sad at the same time because we're like, oh my god, we're not getting enough connection. But as little so people want these like meaningful friendships, then they're like, how do I get it? So why is it really hard to make friends as an adult? Yeah. So there's the sociologist. I really like Rebecca G. Adams. And she says, when you're a child, you tend to have these ingredients for friendship to happen organically. And that is repeated unplanned interactions. So I see you regularly. We didn't plan it like work, like school, but then also shared vulnerability. So in school, that's recess, that's lunch, that's extra curriculars. But in the adult world, we often don't have that shared vulnerability piece, especially in the workplace. And so what that means is if you are relying on the same set of assumptions as how to make friends when you were kids, that it's just going to happen, right? You're going to end up lonely. And this is supported by one study that found that the more people thought friendship happened without effort, the more lonely they were years later, whereas the more people saw it as taking an effort, the less lonely they were because they made that effort to make friends. So friendship does not happen organically. You can't just hope for friends and then expect that they'll come into your life. It is very effortful and intentional in modern society. That's beautiful to kind of just recognize that. Yeah. I think it's the same idea like trying to get a job, but someone's not going to knock on your door and say, here's a job you have to put the work in. Or even like romantic partnerships. Yeah. About that. People are so many apps, right? Yeah. But not friendship. So where is a good place to start looking for friends? I think people always say, join a book club. Yeah. Join a jogging club. But beyond that. Yeah. What would you suggest? Before you even answer, I'm reminded of my favorite movie. I love you, man. And we'll talk about like straight men and friendship that like his approach to finding friends was so funny. Like, yeah, so tell us what we should really be doing. Yeah. So probably the first thing I would suggest, the lowest hanging fruit is to reconnect with people that you've fallen out of touch with. Research finds that every seven years we lose about half our friends. And that is not because we hate each other. There's conflict. It's just life happens, right? So the first thing I would say is, is there someone you were texting, you scroll through your text this time last year that you can say, hey, how have you been? It's been a while. Like I've been meaning to reach out. Or you know, I was just thinking about that time we did x, y and z, like how have you been? So reconnecting is powerful because you already have trust established and because research finds when you reconnect, you underestimate just how much people value it. So sometimes you think, oh, they've already moved on. You know, people tend to be very happy to receive that reach out. Now the second reason I think, I'm just going to explain the science behind the jogging and biking. So sometimes when people want to make friends, they'll go to like one single networking event. That's not something I particularly recommend. It can be helpful. But you have to engage in something more repeated over time like I said with Rebecca G Adams. And that capitalized on something called mirror exposure, which is our tendency to like people we are more familiar with. So if I see you repeatedly, even if we don't interact, I tend to like you more. You tend to like me more. And that's why I can be helpful. Running club, I see you three, three different times. And then we're establishing a connection. This is kind of a trust thing happening. Yeah, it's exactly makes sense. Right. If someone's more familiar to you, you like them more. And research is fine. It's a 20% difference between people you're not exposed to and people you aren't supposed to and how much you like them, even if you haven't interacted with them. Wow. The other thing that I want to mention is we go to these events to try to meet people. We overcome something called over avoidance, which is our tendency to not show up because we're afraid of people. But you also have to overcome covert avoidance, which is our tendency to show physically, but check out mentally. Okay. On our phone, we're in the corner. We're not talking anyone. That's right. So if I go to the event, I want to interact with someone and say, Hey, like, my name's Rissa. How have you enjoyed this Lee? Have you been here before? What's it like? Right? I have to overcome that by engaging with people. And if I find someone I like, I just say, I really enjoyed talking to you. I'd love to exchange traffic information and then follow up. I love that. Tired of the I know it's here somewhere. Moment. The new scan snap IX 2400 scanner means you'll never search for a receipt again. Our simplest scan snap experience yet. Just press the blue button and instantly convert documents into digital files you can find in seconds. Perfect for busy professionals who need organization without complexity. With instant one touch scanning, 45 pages per minute speed and automatic data extraction, the IX 2400 saves your files exactly where you need them. No more mystic spends claims or lost warranties. Just peace of mind knowing everything important is safe and instantly accessible. Ready to stop wasting time hunting for paperwork? Visit scansnapit.com slash podcast and discover how simple document management can be. Scan snap. The smarter way to work. Hey guys, it's Grace Beverly here and I podcast working hard is currently sponsored by Nivia Soft. The iconic moisturizing cream for face, body and hands. I love the multi-purpose product and Nivia Soft is a cult classic. It's lightweight and fast-absorbing so your skin feels instantly refreshed and soft and most importantly there is no greasy feeling or waiting around for it to dry. I mean Nivia Soft is the UK's number one body cream for a reason. It's iconic, affordable and works for everyone. Discover Nivia Soft. You'll go to Moisturising Essential Available at Tesco. This episode is brought to you by CDW and the new MacBook Pro, supercharged by the M5 chip, giving you speed for a fast-paced business. Upgrade your team to the ultimate MacBook Pro backed by CDW Apple practice and global lifecycle services, empowering your teams everywhere you operate. As an Apple Premium Business partner, CDW delivers end-to-end seamless deployment with smart financing your CFO will love. I have to say that before I ask this next question, that I have met one of my best girlfriends, Chrissy at the bar, like when I was living in New Orleans. We had a couple of margaritas in us and we're key-kying and then we actually, she was a bridesmaid. I was her bridesmaid, like super close friends. I know we talk about these wholesome ways of meeting people. Are there places we shouldn't necessarily be meeting people and maybe talk a little bit about bonding over devices? Not that a couple of margaritas is bad for you. Places we shouldn't. I don't know if I can say there's places we shouldn't. Okay, that makes me happy. Yeah, but I think, you know, obviously, I'm very pro-connecting with people at work because the benefits for like your happiness, your retention, your performance even are so high. But I will say that they're a little riskier, right? Like if the friendship doesn't work and then you have to see them every day, you can't avoid them. And so for some people, maybe they want to make friends at work, but not get as vulnerable as their friends are outside of work. And I understand that. You know, this makes me think of like that's why you might not want to date someone at work. Exactly. And it makes me realize that friendships are often as intimate as like relationship. It's totally. We need to start paying attention to them in a similar way. I agree. And I also think people don't see your skill sets as transferable between romantic partnerships. They totally are. They are, right? If you have to work through conflict with your romantic partner, that's something you can do with your friends instead of just withdrawing from them when you're upset with them. Yeah. Also, the friends I have, I've had some of them for 20, 25 years. I don't talk to boyfriends that I was dating 20 years ago. You know, these people are going to more likely be with you for longer parts of your life. Exactly. And that's a big deal. What are your thoughts on apps for finding friends? Like I know, I think it's on Bumble, maybe. You can do like Bumble for friends. Yeah. Do you think that those are good places to look for people? I feel two things. So I think that it is harder. You don't have that mere exposure, right? Right. So on the apps, it's just you're going to have to make more of an effort. People aren't going to be as responsive than if you meet someone in person who has more exposure to you. An essence of you have a sense of how much you connect and stuff. But what is nice about the apps is that it's a pool of people that are available and invested in connection. Yes. And so when you meet people on daily life, it's like, oh, maybe they just have young kids or maybe they already feel like they have their group. And so there's that rejection that can come with that that these people haven't necessarily marked themselves as available. And so I would say try it, but just don't make it your only strategy. Yeah. That's smart. But you're right. Everyone is showing up there from the jump because they're also looking for friends. And so that barrier to entry isn't there where if you're with a random stranger somewhere who might not be into it. Exactly. Exactly. So say that we are in a place where we could potentially make friends. Yeah. What do we do? Yeah. Are there pick up blind? Am I? I have pick up lines. One of my besties is always like, what's your name? Which is like the cutest most kindergarten thing ever. But like, but what do you do? What are we doing? If you're like, yeah, friend material. Well, I think first it's about mindset. And let me share the research behind the minds. Exactly. Feel kind of fluffy. When strangers interact across a number of settings at school in the lab in the community, they tend to underestimate how liked they are. This is called the liking gap. And the more self-critical you are, the more pronounced this gap is. And so often we're like, they're going to think, I'm weird. This isn't going to go well. They're going to be closed off. I'm going to feel rejected. I'm not going to enjoy this. And what we see in the research is that doesn't actually pan out when you actually engage in the act. There's another study on talking to strangers that found that people thought 40% of the time, straighters would talk to them. It was closer to 90% of the time. So people are much more open than you think. That's something to keep in mind. And I tell people assume that people will like you based on that. And that's based on research on something called the acceptance prophecy. This finding that when people are told they'll be liked, they become friendly or warm. Yes. Open. Whereas when you think people reject you, you're actually rejecting people. You're creating that cycle. Right. You're more close off. You're not engaging them. You're not asking things. You're in the corner. Right. And so that is just really important from the get go. I would say one method that I like for introducing yourself to someone new is called the insight and the question method. And that involves sharing an insight about your shared circumstances. Like, oh wow. Like this is my first time at this podcast studio. I really like it. Like, have you all been here before? And then the follow up question that that offers them the opportunity to engage. And women do this all the time when they say, oh my god, I love your scarf. Where do you get it? Right. That's an example of an insight and question. Yeah. And I think just sort of putting a little bit of effort into it can go a long way when you show that you actually want to do it. My boyfriend, Benji is really good at this. We're looking for apartments. And yesterday we found one in a building that we like, he's like, we're just going to stand out front. And someone's going to come out and we're going to ask them how they like living here. And at my head, I'm like, oh my god. Yeah. The talk to a stranger now. And this moment comes out. And she was so lovely. And we talked to her for 10 minutes about living there. And like you said, like, I think at first she was like, why are these strangers talking to me? But the minute we gave her a smile and we asked her a question, like, we had a great conversation. Exactly. But I think getting over sort of the scaryness of talking to a stranger and thinking, yeah, like, they don't like me. They're not going to like me. This is going to be awkward. That's a huge hill to climb. It really is. But you know what? Ultimately, when in the research on like, who do people, kind of people do people like? It's people that like them. And so I think sometimes we think these actors connection reaching out, saying, hi, complimenting them, they'll be weird or awkward or cringy. But people love being liked, right? All these things that you're doing or showing that you're invested in someone. That's so real. Like, when I think about my friendships, I am, it's very evident to me who wants to invest and who takes the effort. And I just like literally have like little love, like emojis popping out of my head. Because I'm like, whoa, I want to love you more because I feel like you're taking the time and effort to love me. Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, it's called, in the research, it's called risk regulation theory, which is we go about relationships to regulate our risk of rejection. And so if someone seems like they're going to reject us, we're like, but if they seem like they're going to accept us because they're reaching out because they're checking and complimenting us, those are the relationships people tend to want to pursue. Yeah. Let's say we've been in a book club for a month and we met someone and we really like them and we feel like we have a nice time with them. Yeah. How do we take it to the next level and actually deepen the friendship? Yeah. Well, I would say, and this is a tip that I give for like people looking to connect at work too, which is something I speak on. It's repotting the relationships. So changing the setting in which you interact deepens the relationship because otherwise, if the book club ends our friendship ends and you see that with like co-workers, right? If we didn't hang out outside of work and now you're leaving as much as I love you, it's kind of hard to be like, we don't have that established trend of hangout outside. So I would just say to them, like, oh, man, it's been so nice to get to know you through this book club. Like, I love to get dinner next time before book club or after the book club and trying to change the setting because each setting brings out different sides of ourselves and we feel closer the more sides of ourselves come out in the connection. Let's talk a little bit about the vulnerability you have to show when making and keeping friendships. And let's talk specifically about straight dudes. Because I mean, like, we've seen so much, it's everywhere. Even if you're not reading about friendship, it's like, straight men are in a isolation crisis. They have no friends and I'm like, oh my god, what's happening to my friends? Yeah. I mean, we all know, right, that straight men are socialized differently and different. Talk to me a little bit about how there can be a little more vulnerability. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right. You know, there's data that in a given week, men, and I imagine straight men specifically are half as likely to express affection to their friends, like, half as likely to be vulnerable. And so it is quite stark these differences. I feel like probably women who are listening can relate to this if you're like dating a guy. And you really want a guy will be vulnerable to you, right? And there's a couple of things that I would recommend for men who want a deeper, vulnerable relationships. The first is that you have to go first, right? Because if you're breaking out of some socialization behavior, then someone has to take that risk. Don't just assume it's going to happen. And so next time you hang out with your guy, friend, can you say this? Something I've been struggling with lately, then I wanted to share with you. So the first tip is to go first. And the second tip is to maintain nuance. If you've struggled with a couple of friends trying to make male friends and they're not reciprocating or there's not a lot of vulnerability, that doesn't mean it's going to be every single one, right? And it's about finding the guys that are ready for that and open for that. And that's going to be a sifting process. It might happen more over time. But just remember that it can happen. And there's other people other men that want the level of connection that you do too. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's that thing about, you know, not just going first, but putting out what you want back. Like I witnessed that with my partner and his friends and my brother and his friends. It's like my brother is a physician and he's read a lot of the data on men and isolation. And a few years ago he started being like, I love you before he like hangs up with some of his guy friends. And it's like at first it was like silly and awkward, but he's like making a concerted effort to create like authentically. And it's worked really well for him. And I see a lot of men in my life noticing and taking effort. That's so great. Because I feel like with men we tend to see more of this trend of if they get into these romantic partnerships, they put it all in their network. Yes, yes. Only vulnerable, but that shows that there is this need to be vulnerable. Totally. Totally. And the consequence of that is when the divorce might happen, you know, hopefully not. But men are so much more vulnerable mentally after the divorce. And throughout the relationship, it's healthy for both parties to have community outside of that part. We see that. It makes you a better partner. It does make you a better partner. You're less vulnerable to issues within the partnership. You're more able to come back to the partnership in a regulated space. Not only are you less depressed when you make friends, but your partner is less depressed when you make friends, according to the research. So it, you know, I think for men that are trying to gain all their needs through their partner that that if you make friends, it's going to help not only you, but your partnership as well. I think that word regulation is so important. I know I've been in a conflict with my partner at times. And when I go hang out with my girlfriend, I literally text him an hour in and be like, I love and appreciate you so much. Because I like feel better. Yeah. Yeah. It's really our own baggage a lot of the times that we have to like figure out. I also think one of the hardest parts is that it's not just hard for men to be vulnerable, but we're also living in a climate where like we see Pete Hegsad, you know, telling the troops that they have to be family and that you shouldn't show vulnerability. Yeah. Yeah. We have like homophobia is on the rise. Like there are all these other things like baked into our culture that makes it really hard for people to also want to open up. It's definitely gotten worse. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're exactly right. Like the reality is, men are more afraid to be vulnerable for a reason. They are less likely to receive a positive affirming response to their vulnerability than women might be. Right. And so it's, it's a real fear. And they're spaces outside where people that want you to be vulnerable. They're, you know, both of those can exist at once. Yeah. What do you think about appointments for friends? I mean, I personally rely on them. Yeah. Every Friday, I have drinks with the same friends and I look forward to it and we like unpack the week and it's great. But some people say like appointments are actually bad because you can't have like if it's just an appointment, you're sort of going through the motions. Or it might be an obligation. Yeah. Like where do you land on that? I love it. Okay. Especially people that live in big cities. Everyone is so busy. And it's a way to say I prioritize you. Right. It's like I'm going to carve out the space. Nothing else is going to take this up the space that I really value. And I just think you're a lot more likely to see your friends if you put a standing time on the calendar to see each other. Do you do that, Raj? I do. And I love it. I don't have a standing one like you, but I make dates, you know, far ahead of time. And I think it gives you moments to look forward to also. Yeah. Absolutely. You write a lot about authenticity. I think a lot of people hear that word in two now because it's become kind of cliche. What does that mean to you when it comes to friendships? Because I think it does mean something different. Yeah. This was a chapter. I was talking about authenticity. And I struggled with it because it was like what it to be your true self. Well, oh, you're like, what does these things mean? Reading the research I came to the inclusion that it's who we are without our defense mechanisms, which means, you know, instead of being vulnerable, I might withdraw instead of saying, oh, this upset me, right? That is the more authentic response to say this hurt me than just withdrawing or acting out or now putting you down a little bit or telling me saying how you're not that good of a friend because there's this underlying hurt that's there, right? It's checking your you go a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And I could think to ask to be authentic. We can ask ourselves, who, how would I navigate the situation if I felt completely safe? Because that's why these defense mechanisms come up. We feel like if I express that vulnerable thing, I'll get rejected. So I have to I have to now express it in this kind of offhanded way about how I actually feel in the connection. It's scary. It's scary to do that things. It feels like a risk. But when people were told to not use safety behaviors, safety behaviors are things we do to avoid rejection, like talking really fast because we don't think people want to listen or not talking at all, right? When people were told to give those up, they actually connected more, not less because they were more present and they were more engaged with the other person. And the only way that you'll know that though is if you actually try it because I think for a lot of people, they're so afraid of like just being who they are, being genuine because they think they'll get rejected. And if you never test that assumption, you can never change that assumption. We're all just like our giant seven year old cells. Yeah. Totally. At Grape Tree, you'll find fantastic deals like our best selling Supreme almonds, now for just 899 a kilogram or three for 25 pounds or three for two on our fantastic range of exotic herbs and spices. Plus, use code spring 20 from massive 20% off a 40 pound or more spend on selected products when you order online or shop at one of over 180 of our stores nationwide. If you're looking for big bags and big value, Grape Tree is the place to go. Grape Tree, your health, our products. Buy a Scansnap iX 2500 before March 31st and claim a free echo lights IQ Home Office P4 Shredder. Ditch those overflowing drawers and create the clutter free workspace you've always wanted. Stop letting paperwork control your life. Visit Scansnapit.com slash podcast. Scansnap iX 2500, connected, convenient, superior personal productivity because your time is worth more than filing terms and conditions apply. Scansnap the smarter way to work. Bookstore. And here's some exciting supercharged instant spins every Saturday when you play you got to see the prize. There's no catch. So download the lab books up and give lad books a wheel free spin to get started. 18 plus T and C supply gamble away.org. Don't be gambling if you haven't read all this stuff about it. We have a listener question from Gina. She said, I have a new friendship with a mom. I met my daughter school. I really enjoy hanging out with her, but I feel like I'm putting in more effort than she is. Should I confront her about this? I don't want to scare her away because our friendship is still pretty new, but I also don't always want to be the one who's making plans or suggesting that we hang out. What do you think? First of all, this is such a common problem. Yeah. The one way lack of rest property. The first thing that I want to say is it can really feel like this person doesn't like me as much or they're not as invested. But I really think that often the reason people aren't reciprocating specifically when you have evidence in real life that they seem to like you, it's going well. It's because they're afraid, and they think I'm a burden. They think if she wanted to hang out with me, she would reach out. They're anxious. It is that fear of rejection that lies at the core rather than like they don't like you. That's really what I see over and over again. So I say that to this person to keep that in mind. So it doesn't hurt as much. But I would say this, it sounds like this person might be getting to the place where they're like, I'm not going to reach out anymore. Because I'm tired of being the only one, which again, fear. But I think if you're going to get to that place, it's actually much kinder to bring it up because you give that other person a chance to repair rather than, you know, now they don't have you in their lives and they didn't even get a chance. Right. And so I would just say something like, I really love hanging out with you. It's been such a good time. You know, it would mean a lot to me if you reached out a little bit more because I've noticed I've been the one to reach out. Like is that something that you'd be open to? But the last thing I want to share is that because it's something I've gone through, I'm a big initiator. Sometimes friends are on different timelines than me. I might want to reach out every other week. They may be more of a once a month. But when I give it some time, I often see it's not that they'll never reach out. It's just that they might reach out at a different cadence. So you can also choose to give it time and see what happens. Also like life circumstances like some of my girlfriends have whole children. What a literal earth. They have these tiny humans to take care of. I never mind taking a little more effort to reach out because like, holy shit, that's a hard job. And I understand that, you know, caregiving in any way. There's something to be said too for those friendships. I have friends too. I used to work with at HuffPose. They all laughed HuffPose. And I see them three or four times a year. We all get together. And like, I'd like to see them more, but all of our schedules are crazy. And even still four times a year is amazing. And our friendships, we've still been friends for over 10 years. And we count on that. We know at Christmas, we're going to do it, probably going to do it sometime in spring. And it doesn't feel like less of a friendship because of that. We still have a group chat, you know, and all those things, but getting to see them in person. So I think sometimes it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I have a group of friends like that that we only get together a couple of times a year. So we do PowerPoints with updates of our life. And they are so hilarious. Like they're terrible and hilarious. That's great. All right. So we've touched on a lot of important stuff. Can you tell me what else is key for creating strong friendships as adults? Yeah. I think if some, this is particularly for my anxiously attached folks, if someone doesn't seem to like you walk away and don't work harder, right? Because sometimes it's like, oh, I really like them. And so I should keep trying or keep pushing it, even though it doesn't seem like they're interested in engaging with me. And you know, when I went to a friend's wedding and her, it was another friend, her husband was there. And he was talking about when he had his bachelor party. And as an Atlantic city, and it was like last minute, half of the friends canceled. And they didn't show up his best party the day up. And that sucks, right? And I was, he was like, talking about his friends and how they live so close, but they don't see each other ever. And you know, things like being flaky or canceling last minute for important moments. And then I was like, okay, there's a difference between good friends and good company. Good company is someone who you like as a person. Good friends is an investment in one another to show up when we need each other to be reliable, to, you know, show care, express affirmation, be intentional about this relationship. And so just remember, even if you really like someone, that might not be enough to build a friendship with them. They have to be willing, just like you are, to be a good friend in the connection to you. You know, the showing up thing is really important to me. I found myself taking, you know, getting some criteria with, with new friends. I'll ask like, what feels really important to you? Because if it's canceling on a drink state or whatever, feels more important to one party than the other. I want to know, you know, I've had friends to be like, no big deal. I'm not a stickler. But like, if I tell you this event is important, I need you to show up for it. And like, be vocal about that specific about what feels important to you. Because I think we'll have different priorities, right? Like when it comes to friendship. I do the same thing too. If I'm having a party, I do the opposite. And I let people off the hook. I say, it's totally cool if you can't make it to this. This is like, you know, whatever I get at your busy, I'm going to be okay with that. You do do that. Yeah. And I love to do that. What feels important to you, though? What would you tell a good friend that you need to show up? Yeah. Raj knows I have these friend weekends in Chicago with my friends, like three of my best friends. And like, that's one of them, like, you guys, we have to show up for this. Yeah. Good. You know, this is important. Yeah. I think you all are all looting to this concept in the friendship research called responsiveness, which means it requires you to really see who someone is and adjust the ways that you show up based off of what their needs are. Right. And so, you know, you might have some friends. Reliability is really important. Other friends, not as important. Some friends, words of affirmation are really important. Some friends, it feels freaky. And they get a little cagey if you give them a compliment, right? And that, I think that's a beautiful thing because attachment theory is about how you're imposing the past onto the present. And you're not really seeing the person in front of you and being responsive to the unique ways someone likes you to show up. That means you're really, really seeing them. And I think that's so important for a connection. Yes. What are your thoughts about in real life friends versus digital or internet friends? I think there are so many people now who are meeting people online, whether they're playing games with them or whatever it is. I think those can be really vibrant friendships. Yes. But, you know, when we had an episode about being a better friend with Ann at Gulfarb, she was saying that she really felt like those are great places to meet people and to sort of like forge friendships, but you have to be in real life at some point. They don't really matter. Where do you land on that? I think, I think friendship is all about the spectrum and a way that romantic relationships tend to not be. I'm with you or I've divorced you, but friendship, it's like, oh no, it's just maybe instead of my best friend, you're my close friend, or you're my good friend. And I think that that's a beautiful thing about friendship. So I wouldn't say that the online friendships don't matter. I would say they're doing something. They're offering you something. But what would be the issue and that's what we see in online interaction in general, the issue is when you're displacing and replacing in-person interaction with just online interaction. Because it cannot replace it in terms of the benefits that it gives us, our health, physically, mentally, even let's say you need someone to bring you to the hospital because it's an emergency. Your online friends can't fulfill all of the needs that we have because we are fully embodied people. And so I wouldn't say, nicks the online friends. I would just say make sure that that's not your only type of friendship. That makes sense. I mean, let's go for the banger. What's the, if you could choose only one thing to keep at the front of your mind when you're attempting to make a new friend as an adult? What would you say this? Oh my gosh. I'm going to share a quote from my niece because she remembered, and she said, for friendship to happen, someone has to be brave. So be brave. That's so real. Yeah. I think that's increasingly harder as we get further into the 21st century. We have so many headwinds against us. There's even this culture too. And I feel this way sometimes to like the introvert culture where it's like, I don't want to go out like, and it's almost glamorized. It's like, I'm just going to stay home. No, no friends. Yeah, all that. It's like, I don't know, I'm never have to be vulnerable again. Yeah. And I think we're really scared of being vulnerable. Yeah. I think so too. And I, you know, I think part of it is like phone culture, any discomfort I have, I can turn to my phone to go put that discomfort at the time. Yeah. And when I, I assign my students, I teach at University Maroon to hang out without their phones. They're like, oh my god. Like, there's a moment of discomfort required. I wanted to take out my phone. But then I came up with a question to ask. And so I see these conversation skills materializing before their eyes when they're not using that phone as a crutch to escape this comfort. And I think connection is all about embracing discomfort, right? Because like I talked about with the mere exposure effect, the more familiar people are, the more you like them. That means when people are not familiar, it's very uncomfortable. The problem is when that happens, we eject from the connection. We're like, oh, this is uncomfortable. Let me not do it. Rather than this is part of the process of connecting is having a period of discomfort when we don't know each other as well. And what you really need to do is stick it out so you can build that comfort over time. But the problem is like, yeah, if you keep trying to escape this comfort, you're going to escape connection. Yeah. I have a thing where when I'm with my friends, like, we do not have our phones, you know, like at dinner, if I only get to see four times a year, you can wait to look at Instagram. Of course, you have a work email, I understand. But like I've been with people will be at dinner and I can see them on Instagram and I'm like, what are you doing? That's why I do need to show my friends the memes. I know. And that is because you're in a house. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. I feel like I already know the answer to this question, but I want to hear what your thoughts are. I mean, I think more and more people are now getting AI friends, AI boyfriends, that kind of thing. Yeah. Is there any value in your mind to someone who is making friends with someone, not even someone, something that isn't a real person? So with technology, I feel like the important thing is to use it as a bridge to real person connection. Because when you look into the data, the people that are most and least lonely are both heavy technology users. The difference is the heavy technology users that are using it as a medium to connect in person. I found this Instagram event online. I slid into the DMs of my old friend, those people are the ones that are benefiting the most. And so can you use AI to tell you, okay, like I would love to meet more people that are very empathic. Like I feel in this way, where would I go to find those kinds of people? Like how do you use that as a bridge to connection rather than the period after? That's this is my connection period. Right. I feel like, especially with long distance friendships, I am overcommunicative with them on text and it feels so great. I'm like, just a good shower. I'm like, I'm trying to lose the new Mexico. But like it's I am using as a bridge. We're filling a void in certain ways. And when we see each other, it's so lovely. But I totally get what you're saying about like use it as a means to see them and be with them. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Or connect with them. Because what's what's really harmful in terms of like how our online behavior is scrolling, scrolling, it's related to poor mental health. It's related to more loneliness. But when people are actively engaging, texting people, reaching out, sharing things, that's actually not related to loneliness. And so it is really about how we use it. Unfortunately, I think a lot of these platforms are designed for us to scroll because then we're staying on it. But just keep that in mind. You know, if you're spending a lot of hours scrolling, could you instead use that platform to reach out to people? I feel bad when I'm scrolling. I physically, it feels gross. It's just food. Yeah. I've started sometimes in the morning just staring out the window instead. Oh man. Checking out the squirrels. Yeah. It can only be for three or four minutes because then it's weird after that. But like I immediately, it's like a reset. I totally agree. I love just like being IRL staring out the window. Bring back staring out the window. Yeah. I think that's a beautiful place. And thank you, Dr. Franco. This was amazing. My pleasure. Raj, it's time for better and five. These are our top five takeaways from what we just learned. Amazing. All right. Number one, when it comes to finding new friends, repetition is key. Encountering a person in the same place can create familiarity and make it feel safer. Definitely. Number two, deepening a friendship often happens when you take it to a new location or level. So if you're in a book club, for instance, try going out to dinner. Let's do it. Number three, technology can be great for friendship, but you need to use it as a bridge to get to that IRL time. Number four, there's a difference between good company and good friends. Being a friend is showing up and investing in the relationship. And number five, as Dr. Franco's niece wisely said, be brave. Make the effort and beautiful things can happen. Okay. Noah, so after all this, do you think that you were making friends wrong? I don't. I love this episode because it just sort of reinforced what I already think about friendships and how you actually have to put the work in. You have to show up and be vulnerable. All of that. Sometimes I think it's easier said than done. Totally. I don't think friendship is necessarily a simple thing to have. But I love what you said about the idea of asking your friends what's important to them and really prioritizing that. And I think I could be better about that with my friends. I'm not sure that I actually have taken the time to really ask them, you know, what do you need from me? What do you think? Have you been doing it wrong? Well, first of all, thank you for rewarding my constant app and my overcommunication. Doesn't always get rewarded. I don't think like you. I don't think I was doing it wrong necessarily. But my friendships, I've noticed, are really focused on fun, fun, fun because the world is a messed up place. So all we want to do is just like kiki and jump around. But what Dr. Franco said about really examining, again, what you said also what people need and their friendship style, I want to examine that a little more because my friends make me really happy and I want to genuinely do the same for them. Yeah, it's hard out there right now. It is. Like the more people we have who are rooting us on that we can root on, I think the healthier we're going to be. And so many ways. That's right. Anyway, until next time, as long as there are things to get wrong, we're going to be right here to help you do. I love you guys. Am I doing it wrong? Is a co-production between Huff Post and A-Cast? Our producers are Eve Bishop, Carmen Borca, Carrillo, and Malia Aguadelo. Our executive producers are Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Special thanks to Huff Post's head of audience Abby Williams, head of video Will Tuck, as well as Kate Palmer, Marta Rodriguez, and Terry DeAngelo. And we're your hosts, Raj Punjabi Johnson, and Noah Michaelson. At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner. However you choose to do it, because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way. And that's what running's all about. Run your way at newbalance.com slash running. Hello, it's Dan Snow here from Dan Snow's History. We are currently sponsored by Volvo and the fully electric EX90. The Volvo EX90 is a luxury fully electric SUV perfect for the family with seven seats as plenty of room for everyone, even my family, and up to 378 miles range, which is great to keep the journey going. It's also reassuring through the EX90 designed to be the safest Volvo car ever made. 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