Welcome to Do This, Not That, the podcast for marketers. We share quick tips, things you can do right now, and then we add a little bit of chaos at the end of every episode. We also keep it short, like this intro. Let's check it out. We are back for Do This, Not That, and we have an incredible human being here. Who's here? We have Alex Cotoni. Now, maybe you know Alex by her other name, the Copy Posse. she is a huge deal. She might be one of the most recognizable names in the world of copywriting. Her YouTube channel is ridiculous. I have like four followers. She has over 400,000. She has over 14 million views. She was named digital marketer of the year, and she has trained thousands and thousands of marketers. And the reason she's really here is because she's cool. How do I know that she's cool? Because on her website, one of the big headlines on her website says to de-douchify the internet one real word at a time. Who says that? It's the greatest thing I've ever heard. Alex, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to be here. I thought you were going to say, I know she's cool. You know why I know that? Because I went to her website and she said she was cool, like everyone else on the internet. Well, there's that. I mean, you did know, but you actually are genuinely cool. And okay, before I rip into, I want to ask you all these questions about AI and copywriting and why ChatGPT is my new best friend writing-wise, and it's all the wrong things. Before I do that, give me the 60-second, what the hell do you actually do for a living? What do I do? Well, obviously, I spend a lot of time writing words and making videos if I had to break it down. But really, I am on a mission, as you said, to dedouchify the internet. I really believe that the future of marketing is a combination of direct response marketing principles that we know work and empathetic storytelling. And I feel like that's more important now than ever before. So in short, I teach people how to create the lives and businesses of their dreams through the power of messaging. I like that. Sounds so good. I need to tell people that I do stuff like that for a living when they ask me because I just say, I don't know, I'm a loser, but you're not a loser. I'm unemployed. Exactly. So let me jump right into it because when people hear, I feel bad saying this to you because you're the ultimate copywriter on the planet. But when people hear copywriting now, they're like, oh, I don't care. I go to AI and I ask my friend Claude or Anthropic or whatever, ChatGPT, write this for me. So should we not be using AI for copywriting? Should we be using it? What is your vibe with AI and copywriting? What is my vibe? So here's what I'll say. I'm actually so grateful to OpenAI for releasing ChatGPT because now everybody on the planet virtually knows what copywriting was. I used to have to explain to people the difference between copyright law and copywriting. And now ChatGPT has absolutely like blown the market wide open. So that I think is great. One thing that I like to think about when it comes to the accessibility of AI, and I'll preface this by saying I am not anti-AI. I use AI in so much of my business at different levels, behind the scenes, operations. But there are three very, very distinct ways. I will personally never use AI. One of those ways is through copywriting. Now, I have a degree in business economics. I'm not an economist, but I do know that the more widely available something becomes, the less valuable it is that is pure economics. So when I think about AI, it is incredible how it's lowered the barrier to entry for people who maybe can't string two words together and they need something quickly to, you know, get their point across. Okay. It is a tool that is widely accessible. Anybody can use it and terrible writers. Great. It's a great starting point and it might even write better than you. The problem is when something is so widespread and the barrier to entry is now so low, everyone on the planet has access to the exact same information that you have. So while it seems really exciting in your day-to-day operations of going, oh my gosh, I can use ChatGPT to write something for me, we are completely forgetting our critical thinking skills and assuming that just because ChatGPT wrote it, it's good that it speaks to our customers and meets them where they're at, that tells relatable, believable, persuasive stories, that it inspires people to take action. No we see lightning fast word generation and confuse it with copywriting And that I think is the biggest problem And if you are trying to get ahead by using the same information that everyone else has access to, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that that's a race to the bottom. So does that mean, if I digest all that, does that mean that in a lot of ways, we have to un-AI our copywriting in our emails and our landing pages and our websites? Do we have be like all right ai said to write this so we're going to write it this way instead are you purposely trying to sound different than what ai gives back now i think if you are using ai to create some resemblance of a first draft my invitation to everyone is let's use our critical thinking skills people like i think my biggest issue is when people outsource their creativity and and decision making to AI, that's where the real problem lies. If you're going to AI and you know exactly what you want to create and you are prompting it in such a way that it gives you something that is close to what you want, that is awesome. It saves you time. It's like plugging coordinates into a GPS. You don't get into a car and turn on the GPS and say, I don't know, take me somewhere. You say, I am going specifically to this location. Tell me the fastest way to get there. In that way, you're still the one driving the car. You're still the one making the decisions. Where the problem becomes is when people who don't know anything about copywriting or selling through persuasive messaging go to ChatGPT and they go, I don't know, someone told me I need to write an email, so I'm gonna write an email. It spits something out and we go, I don't know, must be good, and then we use it. And so I think first and foremost, one, allow yourself time and space to sit in the creative messy process. I think the biggest travesty of AI is that it is completely robbed us humans of the creative messy process. Like think about everything you've created in your life that you're really proud of. It takes time, right? It takes time. It takes effort. You are battling, you know, demons, imposter syndrome. Is that right? I don't know. Is that what I'm trying to say? What's the word that I'm trying to communicate? Like we sit there in this discomfort and then we figure it out and we're like, hell yeah, I freaking did it. versus now people are telling us that if you don't have a first draft in 30 seconds, you're being unproductive and you're slowing yourself down. I have had so many people tell me that they have over-relied on AI and despite quote unquote saving so much time, they're actually no farther ahead than they were before. And so to answer your original question, absolutely everything AI spits out, it's your job as the human with critical thinking skills to sit down and look at it and ask yourself, is this what I'm trying to say? And does it communicate it in the clearest, most direct way possible? Because I don't know if you've noticed, but AI has this incredible ability of just filling up space with repetitive ideas and words. And to me, that's the opposite of copywriting. Copywriting is saying what you want to say as quickly as you can. So I'm just curious, like with all the different businesses that you're exposed to and the copywriters that, you know, you're working with, is it like now people have used AI, the results have been like gotten weaker because they're just pumping out more and more garbage. And now they're saying, Hey, Alex, uh, we've gone too far. The pen, the pen is gone too far. How do we rein it back in and get it back to our old school roots? Or they come to you and say, uh, we want to incorporate AI. How do we, how do we, how do we do that without going too far? I think that's exactly right. I think like any, any time something comes on the scene and it's brand new, classic marketers, you know, we freaking ruin everything. We go overboard. We, we try to shortcut and hack our way to the same result. Uh, then we realize, Ooh, maybe I threw the baby out with the bathwater there and maybe I need to rein it in a little. Um, I've seen both happen. I've had people come back to me saying, Oh my God, I regret firing my copywriter. I've hired them back. Uh, I've had my own students tell me this, that they lost clients and when they thought AI could do their job for them and then they hired them back. But what I think is really important for copywriters today is to not keep your head in the sand and be so much of a purist that you're like, no, it is my art and I am never going to learn how to use these new tools, which is why I teach in all of my programs. Listen, I'm going to teach you how to think like a marketer. I'm going to teach you how to sell with storytelling. I'm going to teach you how to be more persuasive. And I will show you ways that you can use AI to shortcut the process. Just make to make sure you're the one sitting in that editor's seat so that you can make sure you're producing results that you're really proud to put your name on. And I'm not the only one that's seeing this pendulum swing. There was a study done by Forrester that showed 55% of companies who laid off workers thinking that they could use AI instead have now said they regret that decision All right I wanna ask you a very loaded question that we didn talk about and I just curious because you have the perspective on earth So if I out there and I like maybe I'm thinking about getting a degree in copywriting or I call myself a copywriter. Is this, in this world that we're in, is this a good career or am I in deep crap? Yeah, great question. If you look at the demand for copywriting services, it is actually on the rise. There is so much data to show that the demand for copywriting is now on the rise, even post-AI. And so I think it's really easy for someone who's just getting started to immediately see words being spit out on a page as going, oh my God, oh my God, that's what I do. I'm now obsolete. When the reality is now that everybody has the ability to pump out words, what they desperately need are creative storytellers and critical thinkers who can look at that and go, this is good. That's not good. That's not good. That's not good. That's an idea that actually might take me in another direction. And so what has happened is the definition of copywriting has always been more than writing words on a page. I mean, I always say copywriting is actually being an expert marketer and then also having the ability to write. But, you know, outside in the outside world, to those who don't know what copywriting is, I get the fear. But you look at the data, the market is at $25 billion in 2025. It's projected to grow to 40 billion by 2030. You look at the top three fastest growing freelance services in the world. Number three is writing. It is on the rise. It surged by 25% last year. Across the board, the demand for copywriting is going up. In fact, there was a huge piece in the Wall Street Journal at the end of last year showing that the demand for storytellers is through the roof even companies like open ai anthropic all these huge tech ai companies are investing multi-six figures into creative positions at their company which only tells you one thing even the companies that invented you know the the technology behind this word pump you know pumping out are now looking for creative minds to come and lead the charge on that so the definition is shifting just like many things do in the marketing world you've been around long enough you know that that nothing ever dies it just shifts form and the demand is is is far and above on the rise than it ever has been listen i'm gonna make a clip of what you just said and i want the world to see it because if there's one industry one sector one specialization that i think people would think is going to get gobbled up that ai is going to take my job it would be copywriting and for you to share that perspective is so i think empowering to marketers out there because I think it's such total trash where everyone's like, AI is going to take our jobs. We're all going to be clipping robot toenails for a living or whatever. It's going to be, on my opinion, AI adjacent is going to be what all of our jobs are. It's not coming for a job. And if it's not coming for copywriting, it's not coming for anybody else's job either. Yeah. Well, and here's the thing, you know, yes, it's my perspective, but it's also the data. I mean, I have gone deep down the rabbit hole because for a while there, I wanted to make sure I wasn't just talking out of my ass. You know, I was like, I was like, am I the delusional one that thinks that this is a really high level skill that people are going to need more of? And that I think is the most important thing is if you want to future proof your income, future proof your life, your business, learning to think critically as a marketer and then being able to communicate that clearly and persuasively, whether it is sitting across a boardroom in a meeting, whether it's giving a presentation on stage, whether it's talking to your future employer in an interview, whether it's writing an email or a proposal, like when is that never going to be a skill that we need to possess as humans? I am honestly very fearful for the people who think that AI can just do that job because they're the ones who are going to be left behind. I love this. I love everything about this. All right, before we run out of time, I got to dig into this idea of dedouchifying, but I want to go, forget about the marketing side of de-douchifying and the copywriting side of de-douchifying. Like if you and your husband go out for dinner with another couple that's a new couple, whatever, and this guy, one of the guys starts spouting off about how great he is in your head, are you like, that guy's a douche? Like, is this de-douchifying like all pervasive throughout your entire life or is it just related to copywriting? I have a very, yeah, I have a very strict non-douche filter in my life. And you know, the thing I always say is like, douche, douchebags come in all shapes and forms. Women are douchebags too. Just like some women are quote unquote bro marketers right You not a bro marketer just because of your gender And I am very obviously opinionated and loud about that But to me dedouchifying the internet like there just new layers of douche all the time. I mean, I initially started my YouTube channel because I had worked behind the scenes. What many people don't know is because they see I started my YouTube channel in 2019. For 10 freaking years before that, I was working in the trenches behind the scenes in many large personal development brands and businesses. And I got sort of, you know, very, very excited by marketing and personal development and, you know, bright eyed and bushy tailed when I got into the industry. And then you realize like, wow, douchebags exist everywhere, even in personal development, especially in marketing. And I was kind of jaded by it all, you know, as someone who was writing, you know, words for brands and businesses, but had really no say as to the direction of the company or the types of products that were being sold i sort of felt like oh my gosh why is nobody talking about the ethics of marketing and so i started my youtube channel really as a a platform for sharing what i believe to be good marketing and and empathetic marketing that truly helps people because i saw this huge gap between these business owners who had products and services that that could genuinely help people. They were subject matter experts and they cared about their customers and they just had no freaking idea how to sell. And then you had all these bro marketers who didn't give a shit about their products or services or offers, but they were so good at selling. And I have been in rooms with marketers that have admitted that they keep doing scammier and scammier stuff to try to get ahead. And I just remember sitting there thinking like, there has got to be a better way. So when I started my channel initially, It was really to put the promotional power of direct response marketing and brand storytelling into the hands of the business owners that I really felt were doing good work in the world. And then very unstrategically and sort of by accident, all of a sudden I started attracting copywriters who wanted to do this for a business. And so it's been a great journey and creating my posse army of empathetic marketers has been fun. Well, I'll tell you something that everyone should learn from you and everyone needs to go and follow CopyPasci on Instagram and Alex Kodonia on Instagram and also her YouTube channel because Alex just celebrated seven years on YouTube. And what I learned from Alex, besides for all the marketing tips and copywriting, is consistency. To be seven years on YouTube, to post consistently the way that you do on Instagram, to have this like relentless and the quality is there, right? But for a lot of people out there, they'll start something. After three months, they stop because they're not seeing the traction or whatever. It doesn't happen overnight. And I think that you are, you know, someone to emulate and look at in terms of just keep on pushing because it takes a while. Yeah, it took me six months of posting a video on YouTube every single week before I hit a thousand subscribers. Wow. And I would have given up if I didn't really care what I was talking about. And so I think that's the lesson is, you know, I often talk about the difference between, you know, what you, what you do, what you say and what you believe. The marketing piece is just the buttons you push, you know, what you, what you say and how you help people is, is how you solve problems. That's a great business strategy, but what you believe, that's what keeps you going when shit gets hard because it will. I love this. All right. I want blow it up. Tell everybody, what do they follow you? Your websites, everything. Everybody needs to get involved in your world. You can find me on copyposse.com. I have all the information you need up there. And you can also shoot me a message over on Alex Cotoni on Instagram. And I'm also Alex Cotoni on YouTube. Amazing. We're going to put all in the show notes. You are awesome. Let's de-douchify the world. And thanks for being here. Appreciate you. Let's do it. Thank you. Wait, the party is not over. Go to jayschwedelson.com because I want to do stuff with you. I want to partner with you. When you click on the button, partner with Jay, you let me know what you got going on. Work with my agency. Work with me directly. Get access to all of my free resources at jayschwedelson.com. And I got a book coming out this April. It's called Stupider People Have Done It. And all of the net proceeds are going to the V Foundation for Cancer Research. Go on Amazon, buy Stupider People Have Done It. that way you can help kick cancer's butt with me. And if this podcast wasn't the worst podcast you've ever listened to, it might've been, leave it a review, follow the show. You are awesome. Go out there and crush it.
