Encore: Learning to embrace winter, with Kari Leibowitz, PhD

Speaking of psychology is taking a winter break. So we're rerunning some of our favorite episodes from the past. Last year I talked to psychologist Carrie Liebowitz about how to embrace winter, how cold weather and darkness affect our body and mind, and why we should lean into the coziness of the season. We hope you enjoy this episode from the archives. Speaking of psychology, we'll be back with new episodes in early January. Thank you for listening. Are you dreading the cold months ahead? With fewer hours of daylight, bare trees, and slush snow and freezing rain in the forecast, winter often seems like a season to be endured rather than celebrated. But in Scandinavia, where the winters are among the coldest and darkest on earth, many people look forward to winter as a time of coziness, beauty, and rest. So what can we learn from the way that Scandinavians approach the season? How can our mindset, the way we think about winter, change how we experience it? How do cold weather and darkness affect our body and mind? And how might we work with the changing seasons rather than against them to appreciate what winter has to offer? Welcome to Speaking of Psychology, the flagship podcast of the American Psychological Association that examines the links between psychological science and everyday life. I'm Kim Mills. My guest today is Dr. Carrie Leibowitz, a health psychologist, speaker, and writer who studies the power of mindsets to improve our health and well-being. In 2014, she spent a year in Tromsø, Norway, above the Arctic Circle, to study how people experience winter there. In her new book, How to Winter, Harness Your Mindset to Thrive on Cold, Dark, or Difficult Days, she discusses how psychological science and lessons from Norway and other cold weather countries can help us find more contentment and happiness in the season. Dr. Leibowitz, thank you for joining me today. So happy to be here. Thanks for having me. I'd like to start by asking about Tromsø. Much of your research on winter mindsets brings from the year you spent there back in 2014. Can you tell us what's winter like in Tromsø? What's the weather like? How much daylight to the yet? And how do people feel about winter there? So Tromsø is a really unique place. It's over 200 miles north of the Arctic Circle. It's a small island of about 70,000 inhabitants. And because it's so far north, they have really extreme changes in daylight between the season. So in the summer, they have two months of what's called the Midnight Sun, where the sun never sets. And in the winter, they have the opposite. So what's called the Polar Night. So in Tromsø, the sun sets on November 21st and doesn't rise again for two months until January 21st. Now when a lot of people hear this, they think full darkness, full nighttime. That does happen farther north, but Tromsø has what's called civil twilight. So that's the time when the sun is just below the horizon. So you know, the way the sky gets light before the sun officially rises or stays light after it sets, you get that for anywhere from sort of two to five or six hours a day during the Polar Night. And that light can be very beautiful. It's very soft. It's not direct. You can have, if it's a clear day, these amazing sunrise and sunset colors. It also makes the world very blue. A lot of people like to refer to the Polar Night as the blue time. It's the time of year where the world is very blue tinted. And Tromsø also has a unique climate because it's located on the Gulf Stream. So even though it's so far north, it's actually a lot warmer than you might expect. So the average winter temperatures are usually in the 20s Fahrenheit, which is cold, it's below freezing, it's very snowy. But considering that it's 200 miles north of the Arctic Circle, it's not as cold as most people expect. And if you go inland away from the coast, it gets much, much colder relatively quickly. So it has these really interesting winter conditions where it's definitely snowy, definitely cold, definitely wintery. But also the darkness is a big thing, that the Polar Night is really one of the things that makes Tromsø the most extreme in terms of climate. And people there have varying opinions about the winter. Of course, there are people like everywhere who struggle with that time of year, who struggle with a lack of vitamin D, or they have a hard time getting up in the morning. But there's a lot of people who really appreciate the Polar Night and who find it to be extremely magical, extremely peaceful, cozy, and really see it as a very special and beautiful time of year. And that was something that, before I moved there, I was imagining this sort of darkness, foreboding, scary, and I was surprised by how gentle and gorgeous it was without the sun. Now you say in your book that you were not a big fan of winter before you moved there. So were you worried about how you would handle the cold and all that darkness? I was. I mean, other researchers out there may be familiar with this experience. You know, you apply for a bunch of research grants, most of them you don't get. And so you're not really intending to actually follow through with all of the kind of stuff. And so I had put out a bunch of sort of fellowship applications to go abroad. And then I got this one to go move to the Arctic for a year. And I was like, oh my God, what have I done? Like, am I really going to move to this place? You know, I grew up on the Jersey Shore south of New York City in a town where summer was king and we sort of lived for the summers and the beach time. And I did not enjoy the winter. I really didn't and still don't really enjoy the feeling of being cold. I really struggled with winter mornings growing up, especially in high school. And I was really unsure what it would be like to live through such an extreme winter. And the people I talked to when I told them I was moving to this city in the Arctic, especially in the US, people had really strong reactions. People would say things like, I could never do that. I would be so depressed. Like, don't you think you're going to get depressed? And so both my own internal narrative and also the cultural narrative around me was that this was going to be an extremely challenging and a harsh environment on something I was really going to have to try my best just to endure and make it through. But it didn't turn out that way. No, that wasn't really the story I encountered in Norway. I mean, you know, and I think this really speaks to the value of doing cultural research and spending time on the ground in these places, right? You know, in the end, the research study I did there was a survey and now you can do online surveys from anywhere. But so much of my research was informed by living in this place and talking to the people there and talking to people about what winter was going to be like, what I should be looking at, what I should be thinking about. And I was just finding that people in Trosa had a really different relationship to the winter than I had growing up in New Jersey. Like the winter being longer, darker, colder, harsher in many respects. People there talked about the things they were looking forward to. They looked forward to skiing and coziness and the beauty of the polar night and the film festival that happens in the dark time in January and all of these things that they weren't focused on all of the things to come that would be annoying or uncomfortable or unpleasant. They were really oriented towards the opportunities of the season and the things that made the season special that they were looking forward to. Now, the subtitle of your book is Harness Your Mindset to Thrive on Cold, Dark, or Difficult Days. And before we talk about a winter mindset, could you define more broadly what is a mindset? Why is it important? Sure. I completed my PhD in psychology at Stanford University working in the Stanford-Minded Body Lab with Professor Aliyah Crum. And this follows the tradition of Dr. Carol Dweck and her work on growth and fixed mindsets about intelligence. And so the definition I use really comes from Dr. Aliyah Crum and the Stanford-Minded Body Lab, which is that we think of mindsets as a core assumption or belief about something in the world and how it works. So they tend to be very basic and very broad, right? Intelligence is fixed or intelligence is malleable. Stress is enhancing for performance and well-being or debilitating for performance and well-being. Winter is wonderful or winter is dreadful. Winter is full of opportunity or winter is limiting. And a lot of the time we have these mindsets and they might be influencing us, but we're not always aware of these sort of really broad assumptions that we have about these very basic things in the world. If a person wants to change their attitude toward winter, then how do they change their winter mindset? Where do you start? Well, I think you start by recognizing that you have a winter mindset, right? You know, we all go through winter and we have ideas about winter. We have these mindsets. We have schemas. We have expectations. We have all these associations that come up with the season and recognizing that those in and of themselves are powerful and that those are influencing our experience. So taking stock of your mindset and noticing it, trying to think about what comes up for you when you think about winter, when you envision going into the season is really important. And then I think there's lots of different strategies that we can do for changing our mindset. So we can do things like deliberately focus our attention, right? So mindsets are, they're biased. You know, the truth is that winter, like lots of things, is complex. There's parts of winter that are dreadful and annoying and uncomfortable. And there are parts that are special and beautiful and wonderful. That's true of any season. That's true of almost anything that we encounter in the world. But what we attend to more influences what we feel about the winter. Is our motivation and how we behave with the winter. And so we can start consciously nudging our attention towards noticing the things that we do like, right? So if you wake up and it's a cold, wet, rainy day, are you going to immediately jump into noticing and thinking about how this is going to make your commute more difficult or how you don't want to go outside and walk your dog in this weather? Or are you going to jump into how this is the perfect weather for putting on your favorite sweater, for getting a mug of something hot, for doing work inside in front of a computer or reading a book or whatever it is. And your experience of that day and that weather is going to be really different depending on what you attend to. We can also leverage other strategies in our behaviors like we can cultivate winter rituals to give ourselves things to look forward to in the season. We can leverage social support so we can lean on our friends and family for cozy, indirect activities, but also to help us get outside in the winter when maybe it doesn't come as easily. So a lot of these broad motivational strategies that we use in psychology to help us do anything we want to do to achieve our goals can help us change our mindset about winter and see the season a bit differently. In the book, you advise people to get outside during the winter, even though you may think that it's cold and it's going to be unpleasant. Why is getting outside so important? This is something I really observed all throughout Scandinavia, certainly when I lived in Tromsø and also when I traveled elsewhere from my book, that being outside in the winter is really important to embracing the season. And I think there's a couple of reasons why this is. One is that we know that connection with nature, movement, and fresh air are all natural antidepressants. So if you feel a little bit down in the winter, going outside and moving your body just a little bit even is going to be an antidote to some of those feelings and is going to really change your mood. We know that walking even for a little bit or connecting with nature for a little bit provides a mood boost and an emotional boost. I also think that when we think about winter mindset broadly, really it boils down to whether we see the season as one of limitations or one full of opportunities. And I think when we think about winter limiting us, we so often focus on the things that we can't do or that we feel that we can't do in the winter and a lot of those involve going outside and enjoying the outdoors. And so when we practice bundling up for the elements, wearing our layers, putting on waterproof raincoats and boots and things and going outside, we can begin to see that it is possible to go outside and enjoy ourselves in winter weather. And not only does this overturn some of our narratives about the limitations of the season, it also makes other things easier, right? Like when your friends invite you to go lean up somewhere, but in order to do that, you have to go outside and brave the cold. That becomes a barrier to doing things. So the more that you practice getting outside and dressing up and being in the elements, the less that becomes a barrier to doing other things that might be good for your health and well-being in the winter, whether that's going to the gym or meeting up with friends or going out to movies and museums and things that are particularly well suited to indoor winter time, but you still have to go outside and leave your house to get out there. And I think that that is a really powerful lesson. This is actually something that I assign my students to do in the workshops that I give and in the classes that I teach about winter mindset is I assign them to bundle up the skin and avians have a saying, there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothing and go outside for a winter excursion. And then they have to write a reflection about it. And so often it's people being like, I didn't want to do this. I was thinking of any excuse to bail. I go outside. I'm so uncomfortable. And then they're outside five, 10, 15 minutes. They're moving their body. They're walking. They're noticing there's all this beauty around them. Actually, they're not as cold as they were when they first stepped outdoors. Their body's heating up. Their mood is lifting. And I can't tell you how many people who said that they didn't want to do this assignment end up then having repeat outdoor winter excursions after being assigned to go outdoors in the winter. It's something you really have to try yourself to, I think, fully embody the impact that it has. You studied people in Tromsø. And they grew up there. So this is what's normal to them. So wouldn't you think that they would have learned how to cope? I mean, did you find a lot of people who really didn't or people who didn't like winter? Did they just leave that part of Norway? Yeah. So I think people there struggle with aspects of the season. I think some people feel the effects on their energy, have a hard time getting up. We know that light and dark influences our circadian rhythms. And certainly, I also struggle waking up in the morning when it's darker in the winter. And so there are people there who do have a hard time. If you really hate it, I think you would move somewhere else. Although, even if you moved to southern Norway to Oslo, it's still pretty dark. So unless you're going to leave the country entirely, it's hard to get away from what is winter in Norway. And I think that that is part of it. It's like you said, they grow up there, they learn how to behave in the winter, and they almost have no choice but to adapt. I think it's actually when you live somewhere where the winter is more extreme, where the darkness is more extreme, it's obvious that you have to change your behavior to adapt to winter. It's obvious that maybe you would slow down and sleep more and rest more in the dark season and be more active and doing even more things outside in the midnight sun in the summer. It's obvious that you have to change your wardrobe and how you dress. It's obvious that you have to change the way you light your house. And so they develop these behaviors that I think are extremely helpful in embracing the season, in working with the season, because they're doing things differently in the winter. I think those of us who live at more middle latitudes don't have that same urgent need to change our behavior. We sort of delude ourselves into thinking, oh yeah, I can have the same schedule year round, I can be equally productive year round, I can basically dress the same and I'll just throw on a coat in the winter year round. And I think that really does us a disservice because I think one of the real ways of celebrating winter is leaning into what the season offers and doing things a little bit differently at that time of year than you do in the spring or the summer or the fall. And that's where I think these lessons from these more extreme climates can really help us. It seems like it might be easier to love winter when you live somewhere like Tromso with the northern lights and sparkling snow and the things that you're talking about that they do to make their lives pleasant. But what if you live somewhere where it's just gray and chilly and drizzly? I mean here in the DC area, for example, we get more freezing rain than snow, which is really not fun. How can people approach that kind of winter with a positive mindset? Yeah, I think this is a really important question. I do think in some ways Tromso is the idealized version of winter. If you watch Disney's Frozen, that's kind of the land you're living in. There's a lot of beauty and there's a lot of winter wonder. But I think that a lot of these lessons from Tromso can apply in these other climates. And I know that, like you said, in the DC area, in other middle-latitude places like in London or New York, you have a lot of people living with not a lot of snow and a lot of gray, chilly rain. I myself actually live in Amsterdam right now, which does not get snow almost ever anymore, but it's very gray and dark and rainy all winter. And so the question is, what are the lessons we can learn from a more idealized winter place that we can bring wherever we are? The one is, I think, making the season special by working with the darkness. So lighting candles, embracing low lights, embracing it as a time of year to slow down and do calmer, more peaceful indoor activities and really relishing in the darkness for the opportunities it provides. If you drive around your town or city and you enjoy looking at the Christmas lights, that's a gift of winter darkness. You don't get that when it stays light out very late. The ability to eat dinner by candlelight or have an early movie night or have a cozy night indoors reading, all of those things are not just things you can do in the dark, but I would argue things that are better in the dark. And that winter gives us the opportunity to really enjoy. I would also say that every climate has pros and cons. So if you live somewhere that is a lot colder, winters tend to be longer and darker, but you get the benefits of snow and sort of that winter beauty. If you live somewhere that tends to be rainier and grayer and chillier, chances are that you live somewhere where actually the days are longer in the winter. And if you really start paying attention to the weather, you might notice more winter sun than you thought you had in your town. A lot of places, I know that this is true in Amsterdam, I know it's very true in London, have these reputations of like, oh, it rains for six months, it rains all winter long. But if you actually pay attention, that's really not the case that, you know, a lot of these places, even the rainiest months, they might average 13 or 14 rainy days a month. And even on those days, it's not raining the whole day, right? So can you go outside on your lunch break and feel the winter sun on your face on a clear day? Can you enjoy being outdoors on days that it's not rainy? And then I would also say, you know, winter weather can be really fascinating if we let it be, right? So I think, you know, you can lean into the rain being beautiful, the rain being something that enables you to have this cozy time indoors, the rain that is good for activities that maybe get crowded out when it's warm and sunny. So for me in the summer when it's warm and sunny, I want to be outside. I want to be picnicking. I want to be swimming. I want to be riding my bike. But in the winter, that's my time to read my books. It's my time to be in the pottery studio. It's my time to cook more elaborate meals. It's my time to bake things. And those are things that the season really lends itself to, that I look forward to doing on a rainy day. Even my work as a writer, it's really hard for me to write on a warm sunny day. Like I want to be outside. I don't want to be in front of like a computer, you know? But like when I can have my cup of tea and my little desk candle, I can, you know, sort of get into the zone of writing a little bit more easily. And so some of it is sort of intentionally romanticizing and leaning into the opportunities of that chilly gray wet weather. I'm going to change this subject to seasonal effective disorder, which I think a lot of our listeners probably know about. I'm just wondering how common is said and how does it differ from simply feeling more tired and less energetic in the winter? Yeah, this is a really important topic because I think there's a lot of confusion around seasonal effective disorder. So seasonal effective disorder is defined in the DSM-5, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Diagnosing Mental Disorders, as a subtype of clinical depression. So in order to be diagnosed with seasonal effective disorder, someone first has to meet the threshold for clinical depression. And then we can say, okay, is there a seasonally recurring pattern, which most often happens in the winter? You can actually have summer seasonal effective disorder, but it's much rarer. But I think this cultural narrative that winter is depressing is so pervasive, coupled with the idea that a lot of people do feel more tired in the winter, maybe less motivated, maybe less social. And they have this top of mind explanation of, oh, seasonal effective disorder is lots of people are out there saying, yes, I have winter depression. I have seasonal effective disorder. Who would not say, oh yeah, I have clinical depression. When in fact, in order to actually meet the criteria, first you would have to say, yes, I have clinical depression. Then you could say, I have seasonal effective disorder. There's a lot of disputes about seasonal effective disorder and how, quote unquote, valid it is. It depends a lot on what measure you use. So when it was originally discovered, which it was discovered in the US, in the DC area in Maryland, the instrument that was used to diagnose it was called the SPAC, the Seasonal Pattern Assessment Questionnaire. And what this measure did is it measured your seasonality and measures, you know, which months do you feel the most tired, the most social, the most energetic? Do you change your eating habits? Do you change your sleeping habits? Do you change your socializing? Which months do you feel the best and worst? And the idea is that if you have really extreme seasonality, then you have winter depression. So if you say, oh, I sleep a lot more, I eat a lot more, I'm a lot less social in the winter, then you could be diagnosed with seasonal effective disorder. And studies that use this criteria tend to find higher rates of seasonal effective disorder. But in my view, and I think in a lot of view of psychologists, even those who now study said, this doesn't quite capture depression specifically, right? You could actually have pretty extreme seasonality, and it could be really healthy and adaptive. And this is what I saw in Troso, right? People are changing their eating and sleeping and socializing habits, but it's not bothersome to them. They don't view it as a bad thing. They view it as living in tune with nature. And so now a lot of researchers prefer to use the more rigorous standard of first screening for clinical depression and then looking for the seasonal pattern. And if you do that, we actually find much lower rates of seasonal effective disorder. And there's a lot of evidence that outside of the US, in places with very long harsh winter, so in Tromsø, in the Netherlands, in Iceland, they find very low rates of seasonal effective disorder or no evidence of this seasonal pattern of depression. So a lot of people have sort of been questioning this idea of seasonal effective disorder. Is it useful? Do we want to look for it? How common is it really? So it's really hard to give an exact prevalence. I would say if you feel that you have clinical depression and you do feel that you have this seasonal pattern, that it's a good opportunity to seek treatment for depression as you would at any other time of year. For most people, however, I think what's really important to acknowledge is that we are affected by winter and people are feeling that. You're feeling the impact of winter on your energy, on your mood, on your appetite, on how much you sleep. The problem, I think, comes with pathologizing that, with saying that's bad. I have friends who know what I study, who the second or third week of November after the clocks change will be like, oh, I've been so tired. I just don't know what's wrong with me. And I'm like, hello, the days are shortening. We've lost an hour in the evenings. It's normal to be more tired. And if you look at every other living thing on earth, plant or animal, they all change their behavior in winter. They almost all are resting more, sleeping more in the winter. And so I think, in my view, the best way to address the winter blues of this feeling that the season really does impact us is to say, okay, how can I work with these feelings? How can I say, yes, I am more tired in the winter. I sleep more in the winter. That's okay. Let me make space for that. Let me ease up on maybe my commitments or how much I socialize or what kind of activities I pursue and use winter as an opportunity to slow down. Rather than saying, oh, there's something wrong with me. I must be depressed if I'm more tired in the winter. We can say, this is normal. This is healthy. This is adaptive. And this is one of these things that I actually think practicing this in the winter is really powerful because we'll all have times when we're forced to slow down like it or not. You get sick. You have to have surgery. You're burnt out. You're grieving. You've given birth. Whatever it is, there's going to be times in our life where we're forced to sort of pump the brakes and rest more and prioritize restoration. And I think when we get in the habit of practicing that seasonally, maybe that can become a little bit easier for us when we have to do this at other times of life. Do you think that climate change is affecting how people feel about winter and really how people emotionally react to it? I do. I do. I mean, you can't write and talk and think about winter without writing and talking and thinking about climate change, especially given my own personal ties to the Arctic. I'm seeing people that I know living in Trumsa and even north of Trumsa and Svalbard, an island halfway between Northern Ori and the North Pole, who are experiencing very different winters because they're feeling the climate change in their season. I started writing about this topic 10 years ago, and then almost no one was asking me how to survive the heat and the summers. And now I'm getting more and more people saying, forget how to winter. How do I deal with these brutally hot summers? And also 10 years ago, no one was asking me what there is to lose when we lose winter. And now I'm getting a lot more questions about what do we lose when we lose the season of winter? And I think there's a lot more people living in places like the D.C. area, like Amsterdam, that are on the cusp where the difference of a few degrees in winter means the difference between snow in the winter, which reflects the light and opens up a whole host of activities that you can do in the winter, and a long, rainy, gray winter like the one that we were talking about earlier. And so I think people are feeling more and more that winter is in danger and that winter is precious. And I think we're also starting to see the ways that protecting winter protects other things that we love. So for example, in researching the book, I learned all about the process of vernalization, which is plants that need a certain number of chill hours in order to bloom successfully in the spring. So a lot of nuts and fruits, things like peaches require a certain number of cold hours in order to bloom successfully. And when winter ends too early, that whole process is in danger. So I believe it was the 2022-2023 season. It was very warm in Georgia and the Southern U.S. The peaches started developing early, and then there was a freeze at a normal time, but the peaches had already developed, and so the peaches froze and they were all destroyed. And it destroyed the peach crop. And actually, that whole area of Georgia was declared a natural disaster zone because it had such a big impact on the crop. And so even things that we think of as enjoying in summer, like our favorite stone fruits, rely on winter to exist. And there's all of these kinds of interdependent things where when we don't have the proper freeze cycles, when we don't have the proper cold in the winter, it puts a lot of things in danger. And I think more and more people are starting to notice that. And I think the people who love winter are the most motivated to protect it. So I'm a member of the Science Alliance for an organization called Protect Our Winters, which was founded by Jeremy Jones, who is a pro snowboarder. As he started noticing that more and more, there weren't as many places for him to go snowboarding or the snowboarding season was much shorter. And all around the country and all around the world, there's people who love winter recreation, who love winter sports, who are really motivated to protect the season. And so I think this idea of appreciating winter, I hope, can help inspire more people to want to take action on climate change, to protect the winter, to protect the seasons, to protect the things that winter provides us so that we can have all of these opportunities for decades to come. When you were writing this book, you traveled to many cold weather places around the world to learn more about how other people do winter. Did you discover any other favorite winter traditions in addition to what the Norwegians do? Who else does winter really well? There's so many. I mean, one of the things I learned traveling around doing research for this book is that every culture, I think, has ways of celebrating and appreciating winter if only you look for them. So for example, I went to the Outer Hebrides off the coast of Scotland because there they have a really long, dark, wet, windy winter, but they don't get snow. And so I really wanted to say, okay, what do people do in a climate like that? And they do a lot of community gatherings. So the Gaelic word is called Kayli. It's Kayli culture and this idea of coming together for communal events, dinners, celebrations, gathering around, telling stories, sitting by the fire, usually drinking whiskey, you know, is really essential for surviving these long, dark nights. I was also really interested in cultures and how they seek warmth in the winter. Right? So in Finland, sauna is, you know, a very sacred part of the culture. In Iceland, where they have geothermal energy, they go, they have geothermal pools all over the country. In Japan, likewise, they also have geothermal baths and they do a lot of hot water bathing. And one thing that I found really interesting that I didn't know before I started researching the book was that a lot of these things that people have been doing for thousands of years, right? Like going to the onset in Japan or going to the sauna in Finland. There's a whole host of recent research showing the health benefits of these activities and showing that they're protective against things like heart attack and Alzheimer's disease and they can treat arthritis and migraines and skin conditions. I mean, in Finland, they've called the sauna the poor man's pharmacy and the research is really corroborating that. And so this idea that activities we could enjoy in the winter, that feel really special in the winter and that also feel good, physically and emotionally, are also very health promoting, I think is really powerful. I think, you know, sometimes we have this view of like, if it doesn't hurt, it's not healthy. You know, if it's not punishment, it's not health promoting. But I think in winter, there's a lot of ways to sink physical pleasure and health, whether that's just taking a hot bath or going to the sauna or, you know, slowing down and drinking a cup of tea. I think there's a lot of evidence growing that these things are really good for us and our life extending, even as they can feel sort of life giving on these dark days of the season. So just to wrap up, are you still doing research in this area? What else are you working on now? So I am still doing research in one sense of the word, you know, I'm not doing a lot of academic research on this currently. But as I write and talk and speak about this, there's so much to learn from other cultures and a lot to explore. And I would love to sort of come back to this idea of researching winter mindset and winter wellbeing. I'm mostly focused on psychology, communication right now. So this kind of writing and speaking and teaching. But I have some ongoing collaborations with some of my former lab members from the Stanford Mind and Body Lab. There's some very exciting work coming out of King's College in London, a colleague of mine, Lauren Heathcote, who is working on helping survivors of childhood cancer to adopt more useful mindsets about their bodies and their health and how can we help these kids monitor their bodies and monitor their health symptoms in ways that are less threatening and less anxiety inducing. And so I think I hope that winter mindset will be an entryway for your listeners to start diving into all of the ways that mindset can influence our health and wellbeing. And there's a lot of really exciting research happening in this area now. And I think we're just at the very beginning of understanding the impact of mindset, the mechanisms of mindset and really the potential of mindset to improve our lives in many different ways. Well, Dr. Liebwood, I want to thank you for joining me today. This has been great. This was so wonderful. Thanks for your thoughtful questions. You can find previous episodes of Speaking of Psychology on our website at SpeakingofPsychology.org or on Apple, Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. And if you like what you've heard, please subscribe and leave us a review. If you have comments or ideas for future podcasts, you can email us at SpeakingofPsychology.org. Speaking of psychology is produced by Lee Weinerman. Thank you for listening for the American Psychological Association. I'm Kim Mills.