Chana-kah Masala (with Helen Zaltzman and Josey Baker)

I'm Samin Nasrat. And I'm Rishi K. Sherway. And we're home cooking. This is episode 27 of our four-part series and episode 8 of our eight-part season. This is the end. We've come to the end of the year. Which means we're at the holiday episode. That's right. I'm very excited. Have you eaten or cooked anything good recently? Lindsay and our friends Amit and Mindy and myself, we all went to a restaurant in LA called Kusaki, an all plant-based Japanese restaurant. Kusaki means plant in Japanese. Okay. They had a bunch of different vegan sushi. But I saw one thing that caught my eye, and I felt a little bit like, I actually asked the waiter, I was like, would it be silly if I ordered a burger here at this place where you make these beautiful plant-based sushi dishes? And he was like, no, no, it's really, really good. Really good. And so I said, okay. And so I got this Shishido burger, which was an impossible burger on a brioche bun. And it had cashew cheese, shishito, shiso leaf, maitake mushrooms, and a yuzu kosho aioli. I don't know what kosho is. Kosho is when Japanese citruses are turned into like the equivalent of the Japanese version of preserved lemon paste. But usually there are spices involved too. Yeah. Wow. And that was on top of the impossible patty or ground into it? On top of it. And the craziest thing happened with the combination of all these things. The first bite that I had reminded me so much of previously one of my favorite all-time foods as a child, the sausage McMuffin from McDonald's. That's so specific and so weird. I know. It's so amazing. It was such a strange collision of sense memory and the thing that I was eating. But it made me so, so happy. As I ate more of it, I could appreciate the depth and complexity and originality of the thing itself. But to be able to have both, this very new feeling thing and also this really nostalgic flavor at the same time, incredible. I feel like that's the best thing that fancy cooking does, is sort of connect to some childhood nostalgic. version of something that's totally unexpected. You know, just like some quotidian food that you're all of a sudden like, but these people made this like highest version of it. It's so awesome. It was fantastic and an incredible experience. And then really sadly, it turns out the restaurant is closing this month. Oh no. By the time this episode comes out, it will be closed. Oh, that's really sad. Yeah. In 20 years, you'll have something that gives you a, like a memory of this. Of this, yeah. Sausage McMuffins, there would be one specific context in which I would have them, which is when we would go on a road trip as a family and we'd leave early in the morning. We'd get like trundled into the car in our pajamas, like my footie pajamas or whatever in the back seat, and basically be sleeping from the house until we make our first stop, which was the McDonald's drive-through or whatever. And then I would kind of wake up and then I'd get to have that. That's so cute. It was the best. I also can picture exactly the Rishi because that's the Rishi that I have saved in my phone. Who calls me? It's the kid Rishi in the hoodie pajamas. I love that that's what you decided to put in your dress book. Do you have something like that, that you just absolutely don't eat anymore, but you feel so fondly about and was a regular part of your life when you were a kid? I guess it was round table pizza, but I don't know if it's quite the same. But I'm sure if I eat a round table pizza again, you know, the taste of the sauce is very specific. The dough is very specific. It was the closest pizzeria to our house. And we had it on Wednesdays. That was kind of like our treat. That sounds, yeah, that sounds like a perfect equivalent. That's great. But what about more recently? Have you had anything good recently? It's my birthday this week. So last night at Monday dinner, it was my birthday Monday dinner. Yes. And I was asked what I wanted. And I had like trigger finger. I was ready to go. I wanted zuni roast chicken. with the bread salad, chicory salad. And then when they said, what kind of cake? I said, carrot cake. This was all prepared very lovingly for me. It was so delicious. And then the kids helped decorate the carrot cake and they decorated the top with orange cream cheese frosting. And then they piped little frosting flowers that were green around the edge. And it was very cute and sort of felt carrot-y. But what we didn't expect and kind of like didn't click until Kara sliced the slices was once she sliced the slices into triangles, the orange frosting on top with the green flowers on the outside looked like an individual carrot on each slice. It was so cute. Wow. It was so cute and it was so good. She used Dory Greenspan's carrot cake recipe. And then the kids of the house have been like OG home cooking listening fans. Yeah. So they've taken to calling me like samini, tahini, panini, sardini. Yeah. That was just in the air last night. So instead of singing me happy birthday, our friend Tao, who you know, because she also used to host Song Exploder while you were filming the TV show, who's a musician was there. So Tao started like, I don't know what's the word, creating a rhythmic song out of Samini Sardini Tahini Panini. and then that became the birthday song and we were all clapping and laughing and that was what i like blew my candles out too so it's pretty fun that's really so nice and happy birthday we definitely were like why wasn't rishi i feel like i was there a little bit because you definitely were saying that's all started the whole thing man well we have a lot of questions that I'm really excited to play for you. You know, my brain is already always geared towards sweets, but in the holidays... It's all sweets all the time. The floodgates are open. It is time. I've already been thinking about cookie swaps. Here's a question that we got from Reagan. Hi, Samin. I had the pleasure of seeing you on your tour in Denver, and now I'm in the process of reading through Good Things. and I just got to the part about vanilla beans and how hard they are to grow. And so I was just wondering how that became such a common flavor for desserts since they're so difficult to grow and how it became normal to just say something as like plain vanilla. Thank you. I love this question and I wish I were a little more, I know a lot about vanilla. I don't know everything and this makes me want to go learn more, But I will share what I do know with you. Vanilla beans originated in, I guess, what we now know as Mexico and some parts of South America. And through trade and colonialism, they made their way into other regions. And so now the main sort of places where they're grown are, they're actually within like a certain latitude of the equator. The vanilla-titude. The vanilla-titude, yes. It's like where vanilla lattes come from. And vanilla is the seed pod of an orchid. It's the only orchid that produces something edible for us. Basically, like vanilla gives forth a seed pod once a year. And in order to get the seed pod, there's like a very limited, I believe it's like less than one day pollination period for when the flower has to be pollinated. So in the wild, before vanilla started being cultivated, It was just very rare and very special. This is all sort of building up to show that vanilla beans themselves are some of the most, maybe the most labor-intensive crop there is. By the time you are using a vanilla bean in your kitchen, it has been handled by so many people. So once you understand how much work and how much sort of human labor and human touch has to go into this, you start to understand why a single vanilla bean costs $5, $6, $7, $8, $10. A single bean. Yeah. A single bean can go really far, right? Like the inside of it comes, you know, I think tens of thousands of vanilla seeds, which are the little specks, right? That we have then, you're speckling your custard or your ice cream or your panna cotta or whatever. So like a very, very, very sort of luxurious recipe would call for the use of a whole vanilla bean. Right. Often you use half a vanilla bean or a quarter of a vanilla bean. And then to my mind, you would never throw away the pod. The pod still has, you know, many more beans still in there that you can't get out, plus so much fragrance. So there are many things you can do with that. People will jam them in a jar of sugar to make vanilla sugar. Or you can actually make vanilla extract with them. You can just put the used pods in a jar, cover it with some booze of your choice, vodka, bourbon, whatever, and let it sit. And so you need many, many, many spent pods, though, to like really get good vanilla flavor in there. There is a lot of work involved and it doesn't necessarily make sense. So this is a good question. Yeah, I think what Reagan asks is so interesting to me because I do kind of know and appreciate what a rare commodity it is. And yet the flavor of vanilla is so ubiquitous that, as she says, like part of our language is to describe things that are absolutely blah as just being plain vanilla. Yeah, and I think that's a real mistake. How did this happen? I don't know how it happened. I can only surmise. But my guess is, you know, when I was reading in Kate Lebo's book, which is so beautiful, like she does basically say that in ancient Mayan times, they realized that the aroma of vanilla was a very good complement to chocolate. And so they would actually add some into the sacred chocolate drink that they would make. And I do think there is a way where vanilla and chocolate have been pitted against each other. but also I think because chocolate is so obviously flavorful and rich and has all of these qualities and vanilla, if you're not paying attention, is quite subtle. You know, vanilla doesn't have a flavor. Vanilla is pretty much entirely aroma. Whereas chocolate, cacao has flavor itself, right? And the different types of chocolates have their own aromatic qualities. Some are bitter, some are sweet, some are citrusy, some are fruity, some are nutty, all of these things. And so vanilla is kind of this amazing thing because its power is, it's just so, so, so strongly aromatic. And it makes a very beautiful complement to sugar. So there is a way where like vanilla in our minds has become a substitute for sweetness, even though it itself is not sweet. There's not a sugar molecule in there. It's a substitute in our minds for sweetness. Yeah. I remember as a little kid trying a drop of vanilla extract, thinking that it was going to taste like vanilla ice cream. And then you're like, it's booze. Yeah, it was not a good surprise. No, it's not a good surprise. And so I think because vanilla is so labor intensive and hence expensive to produce, at some point along the way, people developed an artificial vanilla flavor, which is not at all as complex, as multi-layered, as rich, as true vanilla. But I think then if you think about like a real crappy piece of chocolate versus a real crappy piece of something flavored with artificial vanilla, the real crappy chocolate thing is probably a little more enticing. Like there's a way where like there are two artificial sort of replacements are not equal. Yeah. And because of, you know, modernization, capitalism, mass prediction, all of these things, like we are so rarely now exposed or it just costs more to be exposed to the real thing. and so I think in our minds what we're thinking of when we call something vanilla is artificial vanilla when in real life it's hardly plain boring or simple and in fact plain vanilla rice pudding or plain vanilla custard can actually be transcendent because if you use like a half of vanilla bean or even a whole vanilla bean in a pot of rice pudding it's actually an incredible luxury Yeah. Usually what happens in like the history of most flavors is it's discovered or quote unquote discovered by colonists who, you know, like stumble upon some ancient civilization who's been using said ingredient for a very long time and then becomes a delicacy or a luxury. And so it becomes this very treasured and prized thing globally. Yeah. It becomes like a status symbol and then it trickles down and then people want it. Exactly. And then it trickles down and then along the way it's diluted and then just is sort of part of the broad culture. And this is a really interesting example of like something that's so precious and special if you sort of just take the time to trace it. To me, the argument to be made is find a really good source for vanilla and support them. And there are some farms that are doing their best practices to treat their workers really well. there's I think an organization called the Vanilla Bean Project they're really cool and I'll put up some other resources but to me it's really worth it my friends come over and they're like they see my vanilla and they're like well you're a vanilla bean millionaire a vanillionaire a vanillionaire I think actually a really cool holiday present is to make either vanilla sugar or vanilla extract you can make bottles of it and share that with people and that's pretty cool that's a great idea This conversation is leading me to a question that I want to ask, but there's a question that we got that I think will help set this up. Okay. Hi, Samin and Rishi. This is Mike from Fairfax, Virginia. In the Sorry Not Sorry episode, Samin answered a question about her favorite comfort foods and started with saffron and lemon chicken. I'm a bit embarrassed to say that I've never cooked with or even tasted saffron. And just so you know, I just turned 70 this year. I see saffron all the time in risotto recipes, but wonder if it's really worth the price. It's so expensive. Could you help me justify the cost? Thank you. Mike, life is short. Live large. Have some saffron. Call Sumesh uncle and have him send you some saffron. So each thread of saffron has to be harvested by hand again by a human It like backbreaking labor And you know I don even know how many flowers you would have to harvest these threads from to get like a pound or even, you know, 100 grams. It takes so much time and so much work, which is why this spice is so expensive. And it is a very specific perfume. It's kind of like floral, a little bit green, like hay, maybe. It's kind of fruity. And it's also to me feels sweet, even though it's not sweet. The way that when you smell a flower, it's a little bit sweet. Yeah. It's just a very specific flavor. You've lived 70 years on this earth. What wonderful 70 years I hope they've been. And may you one day get to treat yourself to like a packet of saffron to cook with. And so there, I can share some sources. There's a really wonderful Afghani saffron company that supports like female workers that makes really beautiful, very fragrant saffron that I really love. And there's a Kashmiri saffron you can get from Diaspora or from Burlap and Barrel, which are two great spice companies. You get this glass jar the size of sort of a standard spice jar, and it looks empty. It's Like it's mostly glass and then you open it up and there's a tiny little plastic bag in it. And inside the plastic bag are these little saffron threads. Totally. You know, I would say you want to spend probably about 30 bucks on some. To me, for most of my cooking, that'll last me a year. So yes, it's much more expensive than a regular, you know, a jar of cumin or something. But it's not like I'm cranking through 30 bucks of saffron a week. Could you recommend a holiday dessert that uses saffron? that might be the perfect way for Mike to experience it for the first time? I know there is something similar in Indian cooking, so you'll have to tell me. Yeah. But in Iran, we have a dish called sholizard, which is a saffron rice pudding. Oh, yeah. We have kir. Oh, yeah, kir. And so ours is like very, very saffron-y and then often finished with cinnamon. I feel like those are really good compliments. It's pretty simple to make. Like it's kind of cooked, whereas I feel like kir is quite runny and loose. Cholazard actually tends to be quite set. They just have very different textures. And I think kia is made with milk, and Cholazard is almost always made with water. And so it's really the saffron comes through, because it's just like rice and saffron and cinnamon. Yeah. When I think of what saffron tastes like, I first think of kia. Oh, interesting. Oh, well, there you go. I like my kia to be more like sweet soup. Yes, that's how I feel like I've had kia mostly. And then there are, I think, Swedish. There's the saffron buns that are traditional Santa Lucia Day, I think. Which we talked about last holiday. Yeah, when I was craving my cardamom buns. Oh, yes, that's right. Yeah, the saffron buns on December 13th, St. Lucia's Day, which is like the Festival of Light in Scandinavia. Yeah. So, Mike, I hope you get some saffron and maybe try making a saffron dessert. And any dessert really is a holiday dessert, depending on when you eat it. if you eat it on the right day. It's like anything fried is a French fry if you eat it in France. Yeah. Every book is a kid's book if your kid can read. And every room can be a bathroom. If you put a bathroom in it. No, if you just go to the bathroom in it. Oh, okay, or that. Wow, Rishi's really gone full PG-12. So I'd like to move to another question that we got about a different dessert flavor. But for this one, I would like to bring in our friend Helen Zaltzman. Let's do it. Samin, will you please introduce who Helen is for those who don't remember her from her prior appearance? I don't know how anyone could forget Helen's Beyonce gingerbread. Yeah. Helen Zaltzman is our friend. She is the host of the Illusionist podcast. And I would say my only hope for Outward Playing Rishi. And she was your conversation partner in Vancouver for your book things tour. Your book things tour. book things. Let's call Helen. Hello. Hi, Helen. Thank you so much for joining us. Always a pleasure. So we got this question that I really felt like we needed some outside help on this one, but I'm excited to play it for both of you. It's from Megan. I was just listening to the episode from October 10th, where Samin shared the new ice cream collaboration flavor, which sounds really, really good. And I noticed that the way you said the name of the flavor, you said caramel, which really bummed me out because my husband always says caramel and I always make fun of him for it because I say caramel and I thought that was the right way to say it. So now I kind of think I might've been making fun of him for no good reason and maybe he should be making fun of me. So I just wanted to check in and see, is it caramel, caramel, caramel, none of the above? What is the name of this food? Thank you. Oh my God. This irritates me as well, although you could never, Samin, but I have to address that in myself. Why am I annoyed by it? It's a completely pointless thing to be annoyed about. Wait, Helen, which is the pronunciation that annoys you? Well, now I feel sheepish saying it. I suppose I'm from a caramel, three syllable... Caramel. But not saying it's right. It just, you know, I feel like Samin could win me round. It's an efficiency measure to go Carmel because you're saving a syllable every time. If you say Carmel 10 times a day, that's leaving you enough syllables to say Rishikesh, stop it, your puns will kill me. I'm looking up etymology here. Welcome to my territory. I know. Can you offhand tell us the... It's a bit of a disappointing one because they're like, well, it could be this, could be that, could be from honey. Because that's mel in a lot of languages. You know, like the word for candy in Spanish and Italian is caramello. I am on team caramel and I learned the word's pronunciation when I learned what it was itself in the 1980s when Cadbury used to have the bunny commercials. Hey, Mr. B, why are you buzzing around? haven't you heard of Cadbury's caramel okay now I'm just thinking about my own because I feel like I grew up saying caramel but then I feel like in restaurants it became in my mind caramel you could just go and just squash it down to one like your mouth is glued together I also talk a lot about caramelization and that's cara well you're just a wreath of contradictions but yeah I don't know what I'm doing. And now that I've gone down this... Let me tell you, the more you know about language, everything falls apart. But then the history of Carmel, according to various sources, this all comes from like the Arabic world. And I feel like a thing that has happened is white people of all ilks have a real hard trouble with the different A sounds in brown languages. So like, You know, our word for honey is asal, but it's spelled A-S-A-L. I would make a joke about this, but I don't want to come across as an asal. Oh, God. Look, you need to put more syllables in the words you're saying just to give him less time. That's true. I've just popped a map in the chat of caramel versus caramel in the contiguous 48 United States. But on this map, it looks like caramel. Three syllables is like northeast, southeast, getting a bit blurry around Texas. And then the rest, two syllables, particularly in Montana. Except in LA. Do you see the little blue spot in LA? Yeah. That's me. I brought my little blue spot from Massachusetts. Wow, your influence. I actually like the way that this map is colored because it looks like the left half of the country has been caramelized. Okay. Well, I think then what we can decide is... Agree to disagree? Yeah, most unsatisfying resolution, which is that no one is wrong. And everyone's wrong. But I personally am on Team Caramel, Team Megan. Please continue to make fun of your husband on my behalf. I think add an extra syllable to his name. Dave-Avid. Dave-Avid. That's very elegant. Yeah, good luck aggravating him more. God, he's good. Do not encourage him, Helen. Helen, thank you for your Helenization of this episode. Oh, my God. Before you arrived, it was just Helenization. How do you do it, Simone? How do you? I barely do. If you're a fan of home cooking and the way it's all put together, but like me, you wish it had a little less Rishi in it, let me recommend Rishi's other podcast, The Brilliant and Magical Song Exploder. Rishi's the host, but he cuts himself entirely out of the interviews he does with amazing musicians like Janelle Monae, Robin, Fleetwood Mac, U2, and more. So you just hear them talking about the creative process behind the making of one of their songs. I was actually a fan of Song Exploder way before Rishi and I became friends. Two of my favorite episodes are the ones with Solange and Sylvan Esso. The show is so carefully and thoughtfully made, and it's just really inspiring for anyone who creates things. Find it wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, Samin, since we're in this holiday treat mode, there's going to be a lot of baking involved. And so I found these flower questions that have been sent to us. They're a little bit technical, though, And I was wondering if you feel equipped to answer some like technical flour questions or if you want to phone a friend. No, we got to phone a friend. We got to call Josie, Josie Baker. He's my phone a friend for anything flour related. Partly because he owns a bakery called The Mill where he mills his own flour. Oh, wow. Partly because he is 100% a joker. Also, he both has expertise and doesn't have expertise. So he's perfect for this podcast. What do you mean he doesn't have expertise? I remember when he was testing his chocolate chip cookies, I was like, oh, what made you decide this level of caramelization or whatever? And he was like, I don't know. It'll taste good. Perfect. Okay. We'll very much fit the vibe of our show. Let's call up Josie. Hi, Josie. Oh my God. Hi. It's Sabine and Rishi. Hi, you two. How are you doing? Good. How are you? Thank you so much for joining us. Rishi, I mean, I've seen photos of you and I knew you were handsome, but you're strikingly handsome. Oh, my God. It's really true. Samin, have we found a new co-host, Micah? Can I leave now? Wow. You look real. You look like some AI-generated stud monkey. That's because he has the most insane Zoom setup you've ever seen. This is all CGI. This is an avatar. That makes sense. Okay. Josie, are you ready for some flower questions? Oh my God, I'm so ready. Yeah, I'm not sure I'll know the answer, but I'll make something up. You just make it up. Make it up. That's what we do. Okay, great. Here's one we got from Madeline. Hi, Samin. Apologize for the raspy voice. I'm sick right now, but that has nothing to do with my question. So I'm calling because a long, long time ago in December of 2024, I accidentally ordered 100 pounds of flour instead of 10. There were glasses of wine involved. There was a Cyber Monday sale involved where the price was different than normal, so I got confused. Amazing. And when replenishing my flours for my sourdough bread, I accidentally ordered the wrong amount. It's been almost a year, obviously. I know that the clock is ticking. and not only did I accidentally order 100 pounds of flour, but 50 of those 100 pounds are a specialty T70 flour. I use it in my sourdough recipe. I swap out 30% of what a recipe would call for of bread flour with this just to give it a little bit more color, flavor, and that weedy flavor, I guess. I don't know why I said flavor twice. I'm sick, okay? Anyway, I was going to see. I've done a good job of using my community to help use up the bread flour but I'm having a harder time getting takers for my t70 flour so I was curious if you know anything about t70 and if you have any thoughts about how I can use it especially this holiday season in things besides sourdough because I can only make so many sourdough loads and even then I think I only use like 100 grams per loaf or something ridiculous so I really need some help, you know, moving through it faster. Love your show. Love you guys. Thanks. Oh my God. This is a hilarious question. I love this. Is T70 like type 70? Like I've only heard of type 00, which is like what we use in making pasta. So what's type 70, Josie? So this is type 70, which is the French system of classification, which is similar to the system used for type 00. That's just the Italian system. And yeah, It has to do with how refined the flour is and or how strong the flour is. Type 70, all that means is that it's like if you took a white flour and threw in a handful of whole wheat flour into it, it's probably like 15% to 20% whole wheat, and the rest of it is just white flour. It's a little nerdy, but the way that they land on type 70 is actually if you take 10 kilos of flour and burn it, just set it fully on fire, Yeah, this is real. You're left with 70 grams of ash, which is the mineral content in the flour. So type 70 just means that 0.7% of the flour is mineral. In terms of strength, in terms of protein, is it closer to an all-purpose flour or closer to a bread flour? It's probably in the middle. And so I would say actually it's like an extremely versatile flour. Cool. It sounds like it's perfect for all sorts of holiday stuff. Absolutely You could use it for cookies You could use it for biscuits You could probably basically use it for anything And it just got a little bit of bran and germ in it so it add a little bit of character a little bit of flavor to it Josie, what do you think about the idea of substituting just a little bit of the regular flour for the T70? Is it making a significant impact to the flavor or anything of the bread? So for the country bread that we make in our bakery, we do about a half-half blend of whole grain flour and actually type 80. So the type 80 has a little bit more bran and germ, but we make lots of bread that's just all whole grain flour. So I would say you could definitely use type 70 exclusively as your flour in all sorts of different recipes. So she could just go all T70 and do a sourdough. Like she could use up a lot more just doing the same thing she's been doing. Yeah, that would equate to basically the equivalent of like a country Levan type blend. I also just am never going to forget her drunk buying 100 pounds of flour. That's so funny. That is amazing. Can we move on to the next question? I'm ready. Hi, Samin and Rishi. Lina here. I have a question about flour. This is Rishi's wife. The call is coming from inside the house. From inside the house. I went a little flour crazy near the end of a pandemic. I bought a 25-pound bag of very fancy whole wheat flour, and it's taken me a long time to use it because it didn't really work. So I have a decent amount left, and I remember when I purchased the flour, the owner of the shop told me to make sure to use it as quickly as I could because much like olive oil, it will go rancid. And now that I've had this flower for many years now, I feel like I've probably approached or gone past that point. But I realized I don't really know what rancid flower either tastes or smells like. So I was wondering if you could tell me what those indicators are because I don't know. And now I'm scared to use it because whatever I use it for might taste gross. Anyways, thanks so much. Bye. Okay, there's questions within questions here. she wants to know how to identify rancid flower i think usually you can tell because it's wearing a black coat black hat oh my cadillac wait what what am i missing because it's kind of a time bomb you set me up i missed that uh i mean that's a song by the band rancid oh well i'm really glad that the two of you are having a great time You'll be happy to know, actually, I took my son to his very first concert, and one of the bands was, in fact, Rancid. And were they selling Flower as part of their merch? This guest appearance comes just in time because, as Rishi said at the beginning of this episode, this is our last episode, and our new host is going to be Jay. Okay, listen. So how to identify Rancid Flower? Yes, mostly through the song lyrics. but flour storage we can touch on in order to prolong the shelf life of the flour. But also, she said part of what landed her in this problem was that she was having trouble baking with the whole grain flour, which is part of why she has so much left. Yeah, she couldn't get the rise out of it that she wanted. Wow, well, she should just get Rishi to start saying some horrible puns. Flour will come right to life. And I can answer some questions about the storage since it's in my house. Well, how has she been storing it? She's got some kind of thing with a lid. Great. Like an airtight container. Yeah. That's good. You want to protect it from moisture, from pests, from direct light. But you really also want to refrigerate it, huh? Totally. Oh. Ideally, if you are going to be using it over many months, you actually just want to put it in your freezer. It just slows it down. It just slows down the oxidation. and so yeah if you've got a huge 25 pound bag of it and you're not baking really regularly you know and obviously that's like a lot of space in your freezer so you know there's only so much you can do but so rancidity really your nose is the best indicator there and you can kind of trust your gut like if you open up the bag or whatever the container and kind of you know muck around in it and just take a whiff while trying to not inhale the actual flower, it should smell good. You know, it should smell nutty. It should smell fresh. It should smell weedy. Yeah. And if it smells at all, I often think of like... I think of like the wax of crayons. Yeah. Is like the smell of rancidity. Like slightly like a tire. Yeah, or like rubber, like cardboard. You kind of know. It's an off thing. And the thing is, is for both Rishi and Lena and anyone at home, I'm like, rancid flour is not poisonous. Like if you make bread with it, you're not going to get sick. It just doesn't taste good. And this is not to suggest that you use it on purpose. But if you don't know and you can't tell, you're not going to make yourself sick by accidentally using it. If you want, you can wait till I come to your house and I'll smell it for you. Yeah. Yes. Also, if you're using it in ingredients that have a bunch of other stuff in it, butter, eggs, et cetera, like, and it's not the freshest, but it doesn't smell downright nasty. you might not even notice. Yeah. It's really like in the lean recipes where it's just flour, water, salt, and yeast that if you have a flour that has gone off, you probably know. But yeah, it's probably not going to hurt you. And I will say like, based on the fact that she bought this at least four years ago, it's probably already off. I agree. Okay, one more flour question for you. This one comes from Rachel. Hi, Samin and Rishi. I'm about to make the ricotta custard pancakes from Good Things, and I'm so excited to try them. I'm also feeling humbled because I've had to open a new bag of flour and I can never get into a five pound bag of flour without accidentally tearing it in a spot that I don't mean to. Surely there must be a better way. I would love to hear any insight or tips you have on how to get into a five pound bag of flour without tearing it in a spot that is inconvenient. I hate flour bags. I love the show. Thank you. I feel your pain. I love this question. Okay, you have to explain why. Because, I mean, I can picture the sort of paper being stuck, not getting the clean opening. But the way the two of you, while I was playing this question, nodded with so much sympathy. Oh, it's disgusting. In order to make it efficient to distribute five-pound bags of flour, it's just a paper bag that's filled with flour and then rolled up and sealed really tightly. So it can be almost like stacked like cubes, basically, right? but the paper, you know, is glued onto itself. Yeah, like a roll of like hot glue. Yeah, with a roll of hot glue. So then when you're like peeling it open, it might tear. Tears the part it's glued to. Now you've got little paper strips all over the place. Imagine opening a milk carton on both sides so that the entire top is open to the full air. Like that's so gratifying when you do that. You cannot do that with a bag of flour because inevitably there's some like it folded onto itself and whatever, but also the flower is just so messy and the bag is so full. Some sick joke. It is a sick joke. Now I understand. It's a squashed little flat panel and then you have to, it's like many creases you have to get past cleanly. Yes. And there's inevitably flower is in the cracks. So then when you open it, like it comes out and you're like watching your flower be wasted. It's very annoying. Your life is crumbling before your eyes. I just now, when I open a new bag, I transfer the entire thing into another container, like a restaurant sort of square container with an airtight lid for all of my dry goods. And it makes life a lot easier and a lot less messy. I live a better life now and I encourage you to become a flour transferer. I couldn't agree more. I mean, we deal with this in the bakery with 50 pound sacks. And similarly, they are not made to be cleanly, tidally opened. And, you know, every bag is not exactly the same. I would encourage folks to take the bag and look at the top and the bottom because sometimes actually flipping it on its head. Ooh, hot tip. And then what you can do, and this is sort of strangely satisfying, but just bear with me. So you identify your entry point and you take a knife and you're basically just going to like cut the top or the bottom off of the bag and then completely agree with Samin. You want to dump it into an airtight container. are there any clues that can show which side you should open the bag from? Like, did the bag self-identify as tops or bottoms? Oh, my God. Rishi. Endless. It doesn't end. Rachel, thank you so much for that question. Josie, thank you so much for being our guest expert. I'm going to leave now and leave you guys to our show. You too. No, I'm going to leave. Thank you so much for having me, guys. Thanks so much, Josie. Josie, where can people find you? You can find me on Instagram, Josie Baker Bread, J-O-S-E-Y, Baker Bread, or my website, JosieBakerBread.com, or my bakery, The Mill in San Francisco, California. And we actually teach classes every week of how to make whole grain sourdough bread and pizza. You can find that on our website if you're interested, or just drop me a note. Bye, Josie. Bye, Josie. Bye, love you. Honestly, I feel... Seen? Yes, I feel very seen. Okay, back to our dessert flavors. Hey, Samin. Hey, Rishi. We keep bees and I've got four gallons of honey in my basement. Even if I give a whole bunch away, I've still got a lot to use up. I know Samin has experimented with various burnt honey applications in the past. The only one that made it into good things was the icebox cake. But do you have any other things to try burnt honey in? Because that just seems like a really fascinating process to me or regular honey, especially with baking. I like to bake. If there are any baking applications, that's good. But other things do. So yeah, interested in honey applications, take care. Guess what? I love honey so much. In fact, a way you can use some up is to send me some because I always need more honey and I love it so much. Also, I really love burnt honey. But before I get to burnt honey, another way that I think you could use your honey in a really interesting way and make it more desirable to use and or give away is to make churned honey, which I was also experimenting with during the writing of my book. Sometimes churned honey is called whipped honey. And I got to actually film an episode of Waffles and Mochi, the kids show that I did about honey. And it took place on this family honey farm in Orange County. And they were so great. And they were churning honey. And so I learned from them. If you do want to send some honey to Samin, send it to the podcast, used the subject line, honey for Samin. Oh my God. I will review it with the Uncle Nanti committee before passing it along to Samin. And then pass it along to me. Okay. So to make that texture of creamed honey at home, what you can do is just whip it in like a KitchenAid stand mixer with a few grains of dried crystallized honey. And the crystals are sort of the starter, if you will, for getting that churned marshmallow-y consistency and keeping it. So I started making this and it's really fun to make and it's kind of fun to watch the transition happen before your very eyes. And then you get this thing that's this amazing texture to put on a cheese plate or I love it for my own self on a peanut butter and honey sandwich or just toast. And I will say as a recipient of a jar of whipped honey from Samin, it does make a great gift. Oh, oh, I gave you some. Oh, look at me. I am a good friend. It's so good. Yeah, it's so delicious. It has the craziest, most wonderful texture. And I think if you wanted to, you could play with other things to fold into it like they do at Squirrel, I think. They'll do like freeze-dried fruits. You could also put spices in there. Like you could make a jar of seeded honey. I love that. Have you ever had like the seedy honey spreads? It'll be a mixture of like toasted sesame seeds and poppy seeds and sunflower seeds and pumpkin seeds topped off with honey. And really good if you want to put it on top of your cereal, your granola or whatever, but also just for a cheese plate. Or honestly as a garnish on a salad of like roasted vegetables. Have I ever told you about Lindsay's mom's award-winning jalapeno honey? Oh no, tell us more. Dr. Mortensen and her husband Charlie. Well, they're master gardeners, I know that. Yes, and beekeepers. But they also won like a state fair competition thing with this jalapeno infused honey. I love a hot honey too. That's so delicious for drizzling over a pizza. Fried chicken. Oh, fried chicken or roasted carrots with labnet and hot honey. That would be delicious. Roasted butternut squash. But Andy, to get to your question about burnt honey. So for our listeners who don't know, burnt honey is just honey that you put in a pan and cook until it basically starts smoking 302 degrees. But you don't even need a thermometer. It's literally when it just starts smoking and then you stop it with a little bit of water and you stand back and don't let any of the burnt honey splash on you because it's very, very hot. And you're doing this in a regular frying pan? I just do it in a regular saucepan on the stove. It takes about five minutes. And then your honey becomes its own version of caramel. What if you want the honey to be more like caramel? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't know what to tell you people. This is getting, I'm so sick of it. I'm so sick of it. It's the last episode. I know, thank God. But the burnt honey itself is this like magical ingredient now. And so in the book, there are actually two places. You missed one, Andy. There are two places I incorporated. One is the burnt honey icebox cake, but another place where I worked it in is into the chocolate fudge sauce. It's burnt honey hot fudge. I added burnt honey to sort of up that bitterness. It's a little bit less sweet, but you still get the sort of beauty of the honey and the layers of that with the chocolate And I wasn always a honey plus chocolate person but here it really really works And it creates an amazing sort of like super glossy super rich hot fudge sauce that so good I did go through like a many months, if not years long period of experimenting with burnt honey. Why? What led you to that? I'm obsessed with the idea of how to take these like simple everyday ingredients in our lives and bring out something new or different, making something old new again. And I think the fact that the honey's burnt adds this whole other layer of character, but also bitterness. I mean, true caramel is just made by cooking sugar until it's very, very dark. When you taste pure white sugar, you're just tasting sweetness. Literally, it's like the taste of sweetness on the tongue. As simple and sort of one note as possible. But by cooking the sugar until it's caramelized, you then get, I don't even know, dozens of aromatic molecules available now that were not available before, including there's now acidity that wasn't there. There's bitterness that wasn't there. There are all these different sort of aspects of flavor that come out of the simple act on this very simple molecule. And that always sort of fascinates me. And I'm always thinking, like, how do we make something multi-layered out of something super simple? So with honey, it's the same thing. And so there were many things that I thought of that didn't ultimately end up in the book for a variety of reasons, but I'm happy to share some of them with you. I mean, one was just honestly, I would just keep a jar of burnt honey around if I were you, Andy, and then just work it into a variety of things. So I think it's a great addition into vinaigrettes because we often will add a sweet ingredient, whether it's honey or even sugar, or like sometimes I put maple or agave syrup or balsamic vinegar for its sweet and sourness. So you can add burnt honey into a vinaigrette that would be delicious on any kind of salad, but especially in the fall and winter on like anything bitter, chicories, roasted broccoli, stuff like that. Another place that I tried it out, and again, it didn't make sense for the book, but I thought it was really yummy, was I made like a burnt honey and harissa marinade for chicken. Wow. It was this kind of sweet, hot roast chicken that was really delicious. And then I also think it's an interesting ingredient to work into cocktails, if that's something that you're into. You said you weren't always a chocolate and honey person. How did you become one? Because I've only very recently, like last year, discovered that I like that combination. Specifically in the form of this dark chocolate-covered honeycomb candy that they sell at Sprouts grocery stores. Well, you know that honeycomb candy is not made with honey, right? No! Oh, I don't know anything to mean. It's just basically caramel that's finished with baking soda. There's no honey at all? No, it's just called honeycomb because it kind of looks like it puffs up and the inside sort of gets that honeycomb shape. Oh my God. But that's really cute, is she? Well, then I guess I'm still not a honey and chocolate person yet. So teach me the ways. I mean, for me, it really came from tasting this hot fudge sauce at Laurel's house. At some point, I think her mom must have found this recipe. like I think on the Smitten Kitchen blog and since the recipe as Deb wrote it has the option to use honey or corn syrup they were like well obviously we'll use honey and then I think over time they were like increasing the honey proportion and then when I took it I was like oh maybe a thing I could do to it is burn the honey so cool yeah could you imagine putting just to go back to the jalapeno honey for a second or maybe the burnt honey I don't know could you imagine putting it on latkes I don't know I feel like the fried latke and honey would be great together. I'm like, why mess with something so good? We already have applesauce and sour cream. Like, why? Why, Rishi? Why are you out there trying to ruin this? Because we got this question from Alex and Jacob. Hey, Samin and Rishi. This is Alex and Jacob in Charlotte, North Carolina. We're planning a Hanukkah party and looking for advice on the best way to make latkes for a large group without being at the stove all night. You can't have a latke without the traditional applesauce and sour cream, but we also want to mix it up this year with new sides and condiments to make it more of a meal. We've thought of having chana masala and chutneys and refried beans and some guac for a choose-your-own-adventure situation. Do you have any other suggestions? We're a pescatarian household. Thanks for the help. We love the podcast. I love the idea of the chana masala. Me too. That one makes sense. I will say, though, I believe it's pronounced chana masala. Okay, let's approach this in a two-parter. Let's do the part where how do we prevent you from having to fry all night? Yeah. And I think the answer is you have to fry all night the night before. But latkes hold up really well. You can basically get them all the way done the night before or day before or whatever. Let them cool on a wire rack and then refrigerate them and then lay them back out on a wire rack and reheat them in an oven at like I would say 450. and there's enough oil going to still be in there that that'll re-crisp them up. Another option is if you have an air fryer, you could use the air fryer to reheat them and that'll get them nice and crispy. Or if you have a toaster oven with a convection setting, same thing. So that can sort of save you from standing over a pot of oil all night during your party. You'll have to have done it the night before. I think also if you can just take the right amount of oil for one latke, but then stretch it across eight, that would be really special. For this whole spirit of Hanukkah. Yeah. So let's now move on to the fun part, which is the make your own latke. Adventure. Yeah. As previously noted, we love the Hanum Masala idea. Yeah. I would have yogurt sort of in the place of the sour cream and a chutney, like a mango chutney to sort of hit that like applesauce, that sweet spot. Or labneh, which I also love. I think those things could hit that same spot. that Tamarindate Chutney from Noah Furr's book that I'm always talking about would be great here also. So delicious. We probably talked about this years ago when this podcast first started, but one of my pandemic purchases was a whole case of jalapeno ketchups. What is a whole case of jalapeno ketchup? You know, it's like a Heinz bottle of jalapeno ketchup, but I bought eight of them at once. Oh, wow. And you're still working through? No, I've finished them now. Wow, good job. Yeah, because I love it. Yes. Jalapeno ketchup is great. I think I'm just because of the jalapeno honey, but also I think that ketchup is a great latke topping. I don't know if that feels too basic. Wow, wow. I'm going to let you just claim that one for your very self. Please let me know if you agree with me, and please don't let me know if you disagree with me. I don't know if that's making it too much like a hash brown. But let's go. I think we should go in the hash brown direction. Okay. I have to say I personally do not want to have guacamole and refried beans. Guacamole I think I'm really into. You are? Yeah. The refried beans I'll pass over. Oh my God. The maxiness is making me think of like, you know, I would want grated cheeses, some sour cream. Okay, maybe if I had that, I would do guacamole, some salsa, something about the refried beans. I would even have whole beans, like whole black beans or whole pinto beans. And when you revive the latkes, if you fried them the night before, would you put the cheese on them then so the cheese like melts onto the... No, I wouldn't. Okay. But you could, but I would never do such a thing. ever, never in a million years. I also feel like another delicious thing that could go alongside that would be rajas. Do you know what rajas are? It's like a poblano chilies. Yeah, traditionally you take poblano chilies, which are a very thick skinned green chili. It's the chili typically that's used for chili relleno. And so you have to scorch off the skin like you would with an eggplant or something, either under your broiler or over the flame and then peel them and then slice them thinly. And usually you'll take some like onions that you maybe saute, but maybe caramelize, cook until they're tender and then work the strips of chili in. And so the simplest rajas are just chili and onion. You can also, I like to finish them with a spoonful of sour cream or creme fraiche. Sometimes people put corn in there, like corn kernels, but that's its own sort of filling often for like a street taco in Mexico. but also I feel like rajas would be a delicious topping for a latke. I would be stoked to have a latke with rajas. I saw one person on Reddit said that they have a Scandinavian background and they use lingonberry jam on their latkes. Oh, that sounds nice. Sounds nice. Yeah, it's a nice condiment for sure. I think the other sort of direction that sounds kind of good in my mind is you could think of the latke as like a base for a deconstructed potato hash. So like a brisket hash with poached eggs or something. Obviously, you don't want to be poaching eggs all night long, but you could make even like a frittata and then have like pieces of egg, your latke, and then you could have cooked some brisket and chopped or shredded that up. Those are sort of like nice things to have together. And then those would be great with the regular toppings. You know what I could see going along with that? And maybe even just with some of the other things we've suggested, what about some pickled red onions? Yes. And I think the pickled red onions would be good with like pretty much any of the cultures we just discussed. Right. There's the smoked salmon direction you could go in. Oh. Smoked salmon, crème fraîche. A lochka. And that would be also good with your pickled onions. And then I also think one final option of a direction that would really be delicious is to go like the Moroccan condiments. like you could have harissa, you could have charmoula, which is like green sauce, like a cilantro-based sauce. Honestly, you could make the green sauce from my book, which is very close to charmoula. A little bit of powdered or fresh ginger, a little bit of chili, but it's just like a bright green sauce. Harissa, charmoula, and then even like a little yogurt would be great. But I feel like that's a great sort of combo that is a little unexpected. Yeah. The thing about a latke is not only is it a delicious potato-y treat, it's also kind of an edible plate. Exactly. I mean, who does not love that? I feel like I envision holiday parties as being like snacking parties. Yeah. Rather than like a seated dinner party generally. Partly because you want to get more people than you generally have room to seat. At a single table. Yeah. And so anything where like you're avoiding the need for a knife, when you get to a food where it involves you having to use a fork and a knife, you're in trouble. And then everyone needs to sit down or you have to have a place where like the plate can be put down on a surface so that you can cut using the fork and the knife. But if it's just like use the fork to break the thing or lift with a spoon or a fork to your mouth, that's party standing food. Yeah. And I would say you could have a standing order to skip the utensils altogether and just eat the latke with your hand. Wow, Rishi, you think I didn't catch that, but I caught that. I just decided to look away. I also would love to encourage people to go back to the beginning of this podcast as we near the end of this podcast as it currently stands. In episode one, we had our dear friend Josh Molina come and do a Latke 101 tutorial. I totally forgot. So if you're getting excited by these ideas and you have never made latkes yourself, check out episode one with Josh Molina. Relive the memories of March 2020 and he'll teach you the way. Yeah. Great. Samin, we did it. We did it. We survived. That's it for this episode and for this season. Yes. I look forward to the next iteration of this podcast with Josie Baker and Rishi K. Shereway as co-hosts. Do you think we'll ever be back? Have I reached my limit by the end of this episode? Oh, yeah. I'm all punned out. I'm all punned out. I have bad news for Samin, which is that in about four hours, I'm getting on a plane and going to her house. You're never getting rid of me. No. And I don't think we're ever really going away, but I've had a gnarly year. I need a break. Yeah. You've had a gnarly year. You need a break. Rishi, you guys, has an album coming out next year, so he's got to put on his big boy pants. and go do whatever it takes to get an album out in the world. Yep. I can't be wearing these small boy pants anymore. But I'm sure we'll be back. We're like too annoying to go away forever. To each other and to all of you. Yes. All right, Samin, read us out. Give me some credits. We made this episode and all our episodes with the help of Zach McNeese, Mary Dolan, and Amalia Marino. Mamie Rheingold makes her artwork, and Rishi made the music, which I love. Oh, thanks. Our website is homecooking.show, where you can find recipes and transcripts for all of our episodes. We're a proud member of Radiotopia, a collective of independent podcasts. You can learn more about all the Radiotopia shows at radiotopia.fm. You can find Samin on Instagram at chowsamin, and you can also subscribe to her newsletter, a grain of salt, at chowsamin.substack.com. Subscribe if you want to stay in touch with Samin while we go back into hibernation. You can subscribe to Rishi's Substack, which is called AcceptCookies at rishikesh.substack.com. Also, make sure to follow him on Instagram at Rishi Hereway so you can get all the updates on his upcoming album. Thank you so much for listening. It's been so fun to be back. Stay healthy, everyone. Eat well and take care of each other more now than ever. Happy holidays and happy new year. and hope to see you again sometime soon. Until then, I'm Samin. And I'm Rishi. And we'll be home cooking.